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With Mountain Lion's iCloud Integration, Apple Strengthens the Garden Wall

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the any-color-as-long-as-it's-apple dept.

Programming 376

snydeq writes "With WWDC around the corner, iOS 6 rumors are taking center stage, but the real action for developers may be around iCloud. Forthcoming OS X Mountain Lion will integrate iCloud into the formal file system, making iCloud usage much easier and thus more common, and thanks to iCloud Documents, which lets apps open and save documents directly in iCloud, developers will be able to better tap iOS-to-OSX document syncing in their apps, a la iWork. But there is a downside to this opportunity: 'For developers, it further enmeshes you in the Apple ecosystem, almost in the way that America Online did in its heyday. Case in point: OS X apps can use the iCloud Documents APIs only if they are sold through the Mac App Store.'"

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Garden Wall? (3, Insightful)

rueger (210566) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048247)

I don't know y'all, feels more like Kudzu [wikipedia.org] to me.....

Re:Garden Wall? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048369)

Garden Wall is what it's called by Apple Fanboys. Apple users call it the Jail Wall. That's why your iOS devices need to be jail-broken, not garden-broken.

Re:Garden Wall? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048961)

um... no.

Re:Garden Wall? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049243)

um... yes.

Re:Garden Wall? (4, Funny)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049239)

Garden Wall is what it's called by Apple Fanboys. Apple users call it the Jail Wall. That's why your iOS devices need to be jail-broken, not garden-broken. (Score:1, Informative)

I wish Slashdot would interview the guy who decided to spend the mod point on this comment.

Either way (4, Insightful)

BitHive (578094) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048251)

This signals the beginning of the end for something.

Re:Either way (2)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048427)

The large-scale acceptance of iOS's market-only software install was the beginning. This is just the inevitable progression of something that turned out to be very profitable.

It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (5, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048457)

Apple doesn't want you to have a computer, they want you to have Apple devices where you buy stuff from Apple. They want you to sit around and consume the content they sell. They've been heading that direction for awhile now, this is just a continuation of it. It isn't likely to be too many more years before they lock it down entirely, and Macs are just large stations for accessing the Apple Store/iTunes.

Apple is all about the locked-in ecosystem where everything is their way, everything runs through them, and they get a cut of everything. This is just another step down that road.

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048653)

Apple doesn't want you to have a computer, they want you to have Apple devices where you buy stuff from Apple. They want you to sit around and consume the content they sell. They've been heading that direction for awhile now, this is just a continuation of it. It isn't likely to be too many more years before they lock it down entirely, and Macs are just large stations for accessing the Apple Store/iTunes.

Apple is all about the locked-in ecosystem where everything is their way, everything runs through them, and they get a cut of everything. This is just another step down that road.

Apple wants you to buy hardware. All the content, apps, and the walled garden are a means to this end.

Apple's financial reports illustrate this point. They generate little (as a percentage) in non-hardware sales.

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048697)

WHAT?

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048727)

WHAT?

Do I really need to do the research for you? Come on, man.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/19/apple-reports-record-breaking-q3-2011/

iTunes Store: 5%
Other (who knows what this actually is): 4%
Hardware sales: 91%

Clear enough?

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049269)

Other (who knows what this actually is): 4%

That 4% is everything from apps like Final Cut to Safari's cut from Google ads to printed photo books from iPhoto or Aperture to backpacks sold in the retail stores. Hardware is where the money is.

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049377)

Other (who knows what this actually is): 4%

Someone who bothered to look at Apple's published financial reports. :-)

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048725)

Whats awesome is Microsoft's lame attempts at cloning Apple's latest business strategy.

It's like hearing your grandfather talk about how swell Lil Wayne's new record is.

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (4, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048781)

They want you to sit around and consume the content they sell.

You have just described our entire culture.

We are no longer meant to be active participants, but merely passive consumers. And the latest innovations, we're not even consumers, but rather the consumables.

Facebook, for example. Its users are not its customers. Its users are the product they are offering to its real customers. This disconnect from the natural relationship of buyer and seller is a trend that leads us to a not-so-great place. The reason that Facebook's users are not its customers, is because people don't have any money, so the only thing they have to offer to the marketplace is their personal information, their habits, their discussions, their personal communications.

How much would you pay to use a service like Facebook? And why do you not have the choice? The notion that advertising is the only way to monetize the Internet is either an example of just how unimaginative our economic overlords really are. And cowardly. Because if it were a traditional buyer-seller relationship, then they'd actually have to offer something of value. They'd have to answer questions, provide a product or service of actual value. But that's too hard. And too honest.

Apple is going this direction too. Its customers are becoming less and less the people who buy their products and more and more the people who use their products to sell stuff to those of us who have their products.

We will see an Mac desktop OS that only allows installation of software purchased not from, but through Apple. Count on it.

Re:users are the product (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048881)

(At a management meeting)

"Our product is growing vocal about certain issues. We can't have product dissenting from our views. Brainwash half and lock out the other half. Now excuse me while I take a sip of this delicious Coca Cola, whose every refreshing sip makes meetings go better."

(/Bitter)

Re:It is just more of Macs becoming iDevices (4, Insightful)

petsounds (593538) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049107)

The reason that Facebook's users are not its customers, is because people don't have any money, so the only thing they have to offer to the marketplace is their personal information, their habits, their discussions, their personal communications.

While this sounds very delicious in its sensationalism, the reason Facebook is free is the same reason all social media services are free -- you won't attract a critical mass of users if your service sits behind a paywall. People don't want to use a 'social' service in which their social circle has to pay in order to interact with each other.

This has nothing to do with people's ability to pay or not pay -- some community-driven pay-to-play sites seem to be profitable, e.g. eHarmony.com, Ancestry.com, Second Life. They aren't Facebook-level profitable, but they stay in business. The difference is that those social services are driven by discovery of new social contacts, not bringing your current circle over. And they offer features which people are willing to pay for. Sending messages, sharing photos, writing comments... these features are so ubiquitous now that they essentially have no intrinsic value, except for profile mining in the hands of unethical capitalists like the Facebook team.

Facebook is just a digital mirror of brick-and-mortar corporate conglomerates who offer seemingly much better value than local, customer-focused businesses. And people eat it up, thinking there's no downsides.

While I'm quite ardently against Apple's walled garden increasingly becoming a SuperMAX prison, at least customers are actually buying a product, and Apple's business goal is not selling your information. Their goal is selling hardware, and getting a cut out of every app store purchase. Apple just wants to keep you locked in, but I do believe MOST of the people who work there really are trying to make good products that help people. Every feature rollout on Facebook by contrast is another transparent attempt to get more data about your life.

Re:Either way (1)

Grayhand (2610049) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049227)

"This signals the beginning of the end for something." Common sense. This is similar to the feeding frenzy over Microsoft bundling Explorer. There's nothing that is forcing you to use it. I was far more upset about Apple bundling iTunes with Quicktime. I can't count the number of times I had to delete iTunes after installing Quicktime on Windows machines. This is a non story. Get back to me when they limit hard drive size and force you to use cloud storage. I'll be the first one to drop Mac.

Re:Either way (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049323)

Yes, sadly, we are this *holds up index finger & thumb, presses the two tightly together* close to finally segmenting Apple users from the rest of the technological universe; and when that is done, nothing of value will be lost.

Now if only we could convince them that they need Apple's latest invention, the iBrain, complete with 6PB of storage space (for all those memories you want to keep), and the iWallet (more of it 'Just Works,' now with automatic withdrawals to any vendor who can guess your pet's nickname), we will never have to hear from them again.

Er.. I'm not sure how this is terribly different (3, Interesting)

romanval (556418) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048303)

the your documents on Google Docs or Office 365 (aside from the apps residing on the host CPU instead of a web app).

Only app store apps can use iCloud? (1, Interesting)

grub (11606) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048305)


I'm a big Apple fan, but WTF Apple? Not cool.

Re:Only app store apps can use iCloud? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048487)

From the perspective of someone developing for iOS but with as much separation between their crap (APIs) and mine as I can get, this doesn't change things a whole lot, really. Apple has always loved getting people enmeshed in their APIs, it's just that in many cases they hadn't had the clout to do it until the past few years. Best as I can do, there's still a bunch of weed roots snuck into more and more of my own classes.
 
It's so bad that when I see they've added new functionality I'm now extremely reluctant to add it if there's any way at all to write it myself, even if I think I should be able to segregate the use of their APIs out from my main code. They have a way of making things that should be easily compartmentalized into terribly messy and ugly APIs that require you integrate them into your basic logic. My guess is this is an overall strategy that comes from the top, because otherwise many of their programmers are cooking-pans-on-the-head-ramming-into-each-other-for-fun level imbeciles. Then again, with the amount of awful bugs I'm experiencing in 10.7, it may well be the latter case.

iDontCare (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048315)

iNtheSlightest

Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048331)

That's what this is.

As a long time Apple user I can say that if things keep going this
way I WILL be looking elsewhere for my next computer purchases.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (4, Insightful)

ChrisKnight (16039) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048409)

Don't lay this on Tim Cook. This was Steve Jobs's plan; Tim is just carrying on with it.

Here's my prediction: The version of OS X that comes after Mountain Lion will only let you install applications/software from the App Store. Again, Steve's plan; not Tim's.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

chartreuse (16508) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048559)

Here's my prediction: The version of OS X that comes after Mountain Lion will only let you install applications/software from the App Store.

Excellent. Looking forward to seeing if it's reality or the usual paranoid projection. Be seeing you...

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048619)

And that would kill OS X's utility as a Unix platform.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (2)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048677)

OS X being based on Unix is to help them (not as much development required) not you.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048785)

Regardless, they would lose the whole facebook/twitter/cool social startup developer crowd.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048689)

And that would kill OS X's utility as a Unix platform.

And? They already killed Mac OS X Server and removed X11 support, I somehow doubt Apple really cares about anyone that uses Mac OS X because it's UNIX.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048775)

...anyone that uses Mac OS X because it's UNIX.

Like people who ran Linux on their PS3 with the other OS option, they exist in small enough numbers to be profitably ignored by the vendor.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048847)

I test drove a macbook pro, latest version, last week. It had an X server built in. What's this about them removing X11 support? I fired up Xeyes and they were peeping back at me.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (0)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048911)

Well, then it's Mountain Lion (the version being discussed) that removes it, not Lion. But in any case, it's being removed, and you simply won't be able to run X11 apps on Mac OS X any more. I could have sworn this was covered on Slashdot, but apparently it wasn't, since I can't find it here. But it was reported in plenty of other places [google.com] .

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (4, Informative)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048995)

you simply won't be able to run X11 apps on Mac OS X any more

None of the articles in the results from your linked Google search actually seem to agree with that statement.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048997)

You should read what you quote:

"With Mountain Lion, Apple seems to eliminating its dedicated support for the X11 application, instead redirecting users to the open source XQuartz project, which it will continue to support."

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049013)

Oh lookie, what's this? http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki [macosforge.org]

The penalty for being wrong on slashdot is suicide. Get on it.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (4, Informative)

ChrisKnight (16039) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049359)

"you simply won't be able to run X11 apps on Mac OS X any more"

This is patently false. Apple is no longer supporting X11, but they are recommending that people install an open source X11 for OS X called XQuartz. So, you will be able to run X11 apps in Mountain Lion.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/17/apple-removes-x11-in-os-x-mountain-lion-shifts-support-to-open-source-xquartz/ [macrumors.com]
http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki [macosforge.org]

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049315)

I'm running OSX server right this instant and X11 still seems to work just fine on their latest OS. You can go buy OSX server on the app store right this instant just like everyone else. Guess what, its pretty much the same as previous versions!

Perhaps you need to get a clue before you start spewing shit out of your mouth?

Doesn't Matter (4, Insightful)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048691)

"Don't lay this on Tim Cook. This was Steve Jobs's plan; Tim is just carrying on with it."

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. It is still a bad idea. They are making exactly the same mistakes that Microsoft did, for the same reasons Microsoft made them, and from which Microsoft has not, to this day, recovered.

Cook or Jobs, either one should know better. I could see this coming from a mile away, and they have had plenty of warning. If Apple keeps this up, the results will not be good for them.

Re:results (1)

TaoPhoenix (980487) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048905)

(Satire)
Of course they will.

The following companies are Too Big To Fail.
Apple
Google
Facebook
Microsoft

Sorta in that order.

All the rest of the tech world is second class until someone decisively shows that one of the emperors is wearing no clothes.

So of course the results will be quite fine for Apple. Not because of any sanity. But because I said SUDO the results will be fine for Apple.

(/Satire)

Re:results (2)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049023)

"All the rest of the tech world is second class until someone decisively shows that one of the emperors is wearing no clothes."

Funny thing is: Facebook stock today closed at barely over its opening price. Why?

Sorry, but the Tech Bubble was over 10 years ago. Nobody in their right mind buys stock at 100 times price/earnings ratio, unless they expect the company to grow, very fast.

The problem is: Facebook can't grow very fast. They probably have near their peak audience right now, considering that more and more people are getting fed up with them and their corporate "me first" policies.

And for once, not many people were fooled. Actually, the starting price of 38 was way too high... I would not have bought at a quarter of that much.

So yeah, Zuckerburg was out there actually kinda naked today. He might not have been wearing no clothes, but apparently he was wearing sheer underwear.

Re:results (0)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049185)

Apple is the odd man out in that arrangement. The bulk of their products come from apple addicts who funnel a substantial portion of their digital recreational dollars through them, without making real world price comparisons. They are not gaining any new market share they are losing it, what they are trying to do is milk as much money as possible our of the religiously dedicated apple addict base. So the iTV will be targeted at them and if Apple have time the iGame console.

Re:Doesn't Matter (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049291)

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. It is still a bad idea.

Yeah, because it really sucks if when your machine gets stolen, you're able to get all your apps and your files back from a server in North Carolina or Oregon. Seriously, doesn't Apple know that people enjoy the hassle of losing data? WTF are they THINKING?

Re:Doesn't Matter (1)

ChrisKnight (16039) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049373)

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree. This is a mistake.

I love my MacBook Pro; but I fear that in another generation or two I'm going to have to give them up because I don't like where Apple is taking their OS.

It was ALSO a mistake to for the OP to which I was responding to blame Tim Cook for this descent from walled garden to sealed garden.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049267)

The version of OS X that comes after Mountain Lion will only let you install applications/software from the App Store. Again, Steve's plan; not Tim's.

How is that supposed to work? Is Apple going to start selling OSX desktops and laptops that won't run scripts or executables?

You'll pardon me for thinking this is a pretty weak prediction. Here's an alternative: One day Apple will start selling iOS devices in the Macbook or iMac form factor. See how much better that is? If you also assume they'll kill OSX in the process, then you get your doom and gloom AND you don't have to explain how they'd actually go about locking down their OS to be so restrictive yet still somewhat useful.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (4, Insightful)

Grayhand (2610049) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049275)

Here's my prediction, you are dead wrong. "The version of OS X that comes after Mountain Lion will only let you install applications/software from the App Store." More paranoia than reality. After spending better than a decade growing their OS and finally challenging Microsoft on the desktop front they shoot themselves in the foot by forcing all sales through the app store? They'd loose half their customers overnight. First off no one would upgrade to to Mountain Lion and most would hold off buying new equipment. Third party vendors would be shutout so the backlash would be epic. It may be a wet dream over at Apple but no one is that monumentally stupid. The number of pissed off customers would dwarf the Vista revolt. Why lock the barn door while more are trying to squeeze in? There's simply no rational reason to do it and there are major downsides. Sure they will keep trying to make it or attractive to use the app store but shutting out other vendors would be shooting themselves in the foot with a nuke. They'd also be putting an antitrust target on their chests so any gain would be offset by customer backlash and the next ten years in court.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (0)

ChrisKnight (16039) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049381)

I bet a shot of good scotch and a pint of Guinness on my prediction. Will you bet against me?

Apple has no problem pissing off/on customers; so if that is the linchpin of your argument you might want to pass on my bet.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Fulkkari (603331) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049311)

The way I see this is going, this might be the case by default. Typical users get their software through Apple. Controls the user experience by denying applications they don't want for their users for whatever reason. On the upside users get safer downloads and applications with at least some level of quality. The fact that applications are being sandboxed and what they can do are controlled by "entitlements" given by Apple will eventually increase the security of OS X. Too long has the access rights of a process equaled the access rights of the user. Whitelisting applications will be much more effective than blacklisting (= virus scanners). I'm not quite sure why most people see this as a bad thing.

For the users on the other side of the spectrum, e.g. developers, I would not worry too much. Unlike iOS, OS X is being used to create applications. Software just don't magically appear in their final form on the doorstep of Apple. You may need to sign your software before being able to run it, but the option will be there. But why should this be enabled by default? Most people will never touch the code.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1, Insightful)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048411)

You can't say you didn't see this coming. This has Job's fingerprints all over it and has probably been planned for quite some time. I think fans have been saying this sort of change wouldn't happen on OS X just because of denial. Yes, for now it's still better than iOS in that you can still install stuff from outside the garden, but with the direction things are heading, even that may go in the future.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048429)

...As a long time Apple user I can say that if things keep going this
way I WILL be looking elsewhere for my next computer purchases.

You can go. Apple doesn't care about you. Nothing will change at Apple unless/until several million users revolt. Even then chances are slim for change. How soon we forget "You're holding it wrong".

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

Man On Pink Corner (1089867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048473)

Things will keep going this way... and yes, you'll have to look elsewhere for your computer purchases, because Apple won't even pretend to be selling "computers" before long.

Re:Tim Cook's first big fuckup. (1)

phurry (2637955) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048669)

after all... a computer is just a commodity. They all can surf the web; they all can do FB or twattle or email or SMS or IRC; they all have development frameworks, tools, compilers, et.al. And by becoming emotionally attached to a single brand for which you spend double, triple what other low-cost brands cost for the exact same functionality is just IGNORANT. Unless you are all about "keeping up with the Jonses" and possessing what "they" have too. There is NOTHING useful which Apple has on their devices, that doesn't exist in a low-cost Linux box, or a low-cost FreeBSD box or an expensive Windoze box.

Anticompetetive (3, Insightful)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048393)

Any way you slice it, this is unethical. Restricting usage of an API to developers who sell through your platform (and thus give you 30%), giving your own private cloud service filesystem level integration... Imagine if Microsoft made either of these moves.

Re:Anticompetetive (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048515)

First one to sell an app through the store that is just a shim interface to iCloud wins. Think that would be allowed in the market? Is it anti-competitive to block it?

Re:Anticompetetive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048557)

Think that would be allowed in the market?

Not a chance in hell.

Is it anti-competitive to block it?

Without knowing how deep iCloud integration goes, it's hard to say if it even matters. After all, why bother with iCloud at all if Dropbox/box.net/Google Drive/Skydrive/etc. offer open APIs. Of course if iCloud is pervasive and not a mobile.me-level failure, it will certainly hurt those who don't use the OS X store and open source.

Re:Anticompetetive (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048815)

...sell an app through the store that is just a shim interface to iCloud

EACCES

Re:Anticompetetive (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048769)

You are right, this is soo much worse than what microsoft charges developers to design games for xbox.

Its about having apps screened not about sales (4, Insightful)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048827)

Any way you slice it, this is unethical. Restricting usage of an API to developers who sell through your platform (and thus give you 30%), giving your own private cloud service filesystem level integration... Imagine if Microsoft made either of these moves.

Its about having apps screened and approved not about sales. Free apps (gratis) from the App Store can use iCloud for storage too.

Re:Its about having apps screened not about sales (2)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049187)

Its about having apps screened and approved not about sales. Free apps (gratis) from the App Store can use iCloud for storage too.

You mean free to the consumer, not free to the developer. The last I checked, there was still an annual fee for being a developer on iOS, even if you were publishing a free app.

Re:Anticompetetive (1)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049331)

Its not unethical in the least, you just want to make it out bad as you don't like it.

As a developer and architect of a rather large scale system that deals with something not entirely different than iCloud, its rather nice to have total control over the clients that connect to you and its REALLY nice if you can turn those clients off instantly if they stop playing by the rules.

You can of course, not use the Apple store and do what ever the fuck you want. I suppose you bitch at walmart for not buying your shitty product as well?

Re:Anticompetetive (1)

Jeremi (14640) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049387)

Any way you slice it, this is unethical. Restricting usage of an API to developers who sell through your platform (and thus give you 30%), giving your own private cloud service filesystem level integration... Imagine if Microsoft made either of these moves.

Is it access to the API that Apple is restricting, or access to Apple's servers?

If it's the latter, then I don't see an issue... the server's are Apple's property, and so they can allow or deny access to their servers based on whatever terms they care to come up with.

not (1)

fermion (181285) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048399)

OK. If you use an iOS device all your app comes through the Apple App store. So there is no change there. On Mac OS, 10.8 no one really knows what this OS is going to do. iCloud is fluid. For instance, MobileMe is shutting down in less than 45 days. I have not moved yet. Apple has however setup my mail so that I can use the mobileme interface. This was not something that was supposed to happen, but it did.

The point is that on Mac Apple is clearly going to pushing developers to use the App store, which is what is happening right now. The benefit to users is that the App will appear on all registered computers. The problem is that it is a walled garden. WIll developers have to use the API to store documents on iCloud? WHo knows? WHat I do know is that if it provides integration between iOS and Mac devices, there wil be little complaints.

What I also believe is that users are not going to be using the documents part of iCloud very much. It will quickly require payments to apple as the data grows. The real part of iCloud that streangths the garden wall is that content bought from apple is stored for free.

Re:not (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049095)

I would post an intelligent reply to your post, but then I saw that you signed up for MobileMe

Native TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs? (2, Interesting)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048425)

With both Snow Leopard and Lion, I had to hack a file just to enabled TRIM on my Intel SSD. I have a feeling I'll have to do that again if I upgrade. Unless they've made attempts to correct that little "exploit".

Apple makes a good product, but only if you buy everything through Apple. I'm quite honestly surprised they even made replacing an HDD with a non-Apple brand even possible. I know some IBM Thinkpads will bitch at POST unless the drive's firmware has been signed by IBM.

Re:Native TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs? (1)

phurry (2637955) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048733)

Apple makes a ""good"" product... And what is your definition of ""good""? Having to pay double, triple for their device and then FURTHER pay again and again for some apps to run on that device?! I don't agree. I pay very little for my devices (I build my own, actually) and pay ZERO for apps. I use FOSS or write my own app/script.

Re:Native TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049169)

Apple did the hard drive signing thing for years. You used an Apple HD, hacked their disk utility, or bought a third party disk utility.

Grab Apple (1, Interesting)

kawabago (551139) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048431)

That wall keeps business out too. The problem with walls is that everything just grows around them and what's contained becomes irrelevant.

Re:Grab Apple (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048497)

Funny how that hasn't happened yet.... And in fact Apple's greatest success came when they started controlling more of the experience.

Re:Grab Apple (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048527)

That wall keeps business out too. The problem with walls is that everything just grows around them and what's contained becomes irrelevant.

Nice platitude bro.. Thanks for this pointless post.

This is what Mac users WANT (3, Insightful)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048467)

They want it to Just Work. They want to buy it, plug it in, go pointy-clicky and have it work. People have an expectation that computers and technological devices (tablets, phones, etc) work without screwing around with them.

here is the bargin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048597)

to make computers as reliable and turn-key as a microwave, this is probably the only way to do it is to protect the lusers from themselves.

here is the bargain: give me your freedom and i'll keep you safe.

Re:here is the bargin (2)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048717)

In Apple's case, it's actually give me your freedom and your money.

Re:This is what Mac users WANT (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049281)

Yes. In fact, we here this from the same crowd that used AOL (another walled garden). People who believe that ignorance is a strength.

Seriously, it takes less than a week of learning to know how to do 90% of the normal tasks with a computer. And yet these people are fighting it, for what reasons no one can figure out. Might as well as for a car with one button (no steering wheel, no pedals, no dials).

Re:This is what Mac users WANT (4, Informative)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049319)

Honestly, that's why I bought my first mac over 10 years ago. I wanted a Unix based laptop where all the hardware actually worked and since I've never really looked back. Why? Because for 10 years my macs have pretty much stayed out of my way and let me get work done. Which is something I've grown even more appreciative of as I've gotten older and want to spend time doing things other than messing with computers. Mac App Store, great, let's me know when app updates come out. Also guess what, I bought Cyberduck through the App store. I've used the program for years always meaning to donate, but that was a hassle through paypal since I don't link Paypal to my bank account. With the App store, it was one click and I was more than happy to give the cyberduck project money for their years of work. If updates for the apps I use on a regular basis it lets me know that an update is available with a pretty good overview of what changes have been made.

A lot about Apple's Directio Bothers Me, (3, Interesting)

DrRobert (179090) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048481)

But not this. They are providing a free network support service to vendors that sell through their store. Seems obvious, ethical, and fair. Dropbox is better and simpler anyway because all apps can use it with no API; however Dropbox SELLS its service and gives it away for free as a loss leader.

Re:A lot about Apple's Directio Bothers Me, (2)

Cinder6 (894572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048633)

While I would like it if it were open to everyone, it actually does make sense. Apple needs to pay for iCloud somehow, and making sure that developers don't get a free ride is the easiest way to do it.

Furthermore, this is old news. We've known this since Mountain Lion was announced.

Re:A lot about Apple's Directio Bothers Me, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049103)

> Apple needs to pay for iCloud somehow

I don't really think it's that much of a problem for them.

Skydrive? (4, Interesting)

JBMcB (73720) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048519)

Isn't this pretty much exactly how Skydrive works, and isn't that being integrated into Windows 8? Nobody has been complaining about that...

Re:Skydrive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049347)

Because MS isn't mandating that I buy Adobe CS6 through MS to use Skydrive.

Am I using iCloud wrong? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048577)

Maybe my expectations aren't matched with it. I want to be able to drop ANY type of file into it. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Re:Am I using iCloud wrong? (1)

jo_ham (604554) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048605)

You can't - it doesn't work like that. It's not DropBox.

Maybe it will have that sort of function in the future, but Apple have tried that before with iDisk and it was a failure, so I expect it will simply continue to work as it does now - as a system that links your apps together so you don't have to worry about the filesystem. This is obviously not aimed at power users.

You just dont get it, even after all this time. (5, Insightful)

FlyingGuy (989135) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048809)

YOU are geeks / nerds / techies / whatever label you prefer. Apple does not even count you as part of their customer base.

Apple is selling the coolest tech for largest market segment. You buy an apple device and it JUST FUCKING WORKS out of the box. and like it or not that is what people want. They don't want to have to do what you love to do and they HATE doing.

They want a device that just does what they need to do, and like it or not apple devices do just that.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (1)

Skuld-Chan (302449) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048871)

I was dropping off a bunch of Apple keyboards (I manage a bunch of Mac labs for a school among other things) at the Apple Store. Never had a Dell keyboard die, but that is another story/rant.

You should tell that to the less than two customers who came in with 4s's with stuck/broken home buttons.

Sent with my Galaxy Nexus (which also just works)

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049111)

Excuse me if I find your anecdotal evidence lacking credibility. I have a large number of Mac where I work and they are abused quite regularly. I haven't had these problems you speak of. I do like the USB keyboards from Dell which I use in the server room. I have plenty of spares since the keyboards seem to outlast the Dell computers themselves.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (1)

firesyde424 (1127527) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049019)

You have obviously never had to fix a Mac. Incidentally, Apple branded hardware is nothing more than regular PC hardware with an apple logo on it. Silly fanboi. There is no difference in hardware. I got the same parts in a Dell that you got in a MacBook pro. Mine came without the walled garden and I payed half as much as you did. And let's not forget my Razr, which cost less than your flashy iPhone, does the same stuff and has two hour more talk time.

It also "just works."

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049091)

Most Apple customers don't want to waste their time fixing/hacking computers. It's easier for them to buy Apple Care or to just buy another Apple product when Apple Care runs out.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (-1, Flamebait)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049305)

"Most Apple customers don't want to waste their time fixing/hacking computers." -> Yes, they are too busy trying to figure out how those 'Velcro' straps on their shoes work.

And with Apple computers now acting as vectors to infect other machines on corporate networks, we will see how long the VP from Marketing lasts after he's responsible for a $400 million in theft. Probably blame IT too.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (2, Informative)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049241)

I do agree with you that the motherboards are fabricated by the same people who make the motherboards for Dell and others. However, the motherboards are made to Apple's specifications just like Dell specifies their motherboard designs. I also agree that the individual components are manufactured by third-party vendors that sell to just about everybody.

The key difference between the brands is that Apple wants quality to be associated with their branding and will make design choices and parts selections that ensure that they keep their image. They charge a premium for their equipment so they have enough margin to chose quality over economy.

Dell, on the other hand, wants to offer the most bang for the buck. They are competing against beige box assemblers and make design choices that allows them to offer a reasonably powerful machine at very low cost. Their margins are small so they do cut corners to keep the price low. For the average hobbyist and home user that uses Windows, Dell makes a nice machine. The average user will upgrade to a newer machine in about 3 years and the Dell will *probably* last long enough until a Windows game/program/operating system comes out that will require a new computer anyway.

I prefer Apple, but I do purchase and use both brands (non-Apple usually equals Dell), however lately I've been buying Supermicro instead of Dell. I have powerpc Apples that are still functioning well, and the Apple laptops (even the white plastic MacBooks) are still in use. The Dell laptops haven't faired so well. The Desktop machines are still mostly working, but most of the cheap ass parts were replaced (I believe the chassis and the motherboard are the only original equipment). The laptops however are crap. The new Dells with the smart card reader looks promising (we purchased 5) and we hope they do better than the other Dells.

Overall the Apple branded equipment are better made. I had a couple of lemons that Apple gladly swapped out and the replacements have been trouble free.

Long story - short. Your milage may vary but to say there's little difference between Dell and Apple branded computers is pretty naive.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049327)

Several points:

- OSX is not yet a walled garden. This article is purely speculative.

- You did not pay half as much for a PC of equivalent specs. You paid half as much for an inferior machine and you don't know the difference between the two of them because of the marketing machine that sells cheap PCs to gullible consumers. Post the specifications of your machine and the Mac you are comparing it to and I'll be glad to break it down for you with references.

- Your RAZR ( I'm assuming Droid RAZR and not the original RAZR flip-phone it is named after ) is not equivalent to an iPhone 4 or 4S. It is as expensive when subsidized as an iPhone on every major carrier in the US and it has worse battery life and one of the worst screens on a mobile device I've ever seen. It is also running a version of android that is a year and a half old!

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049165)

You buy an apple device and it JUST FUCKING WORKS out of the box. .

No it does not just work! Only Apple integration sometimes works. Little automobile integration. Little TV integration. Poor bluetooth support. Poor Linux support Poor Windows support. iTunes is terrible software for both Windows and Mac. Can only sync with one computer at a time. Very restrictive in terms of getting anything on the device. WHEN WILL ITJUST FUCKING WORKS? Do others do it better? Sometimes. Android is more flexible and it shows by the market share.

Give it time we've been down this road before in the early 80's. Same discussion.

Re:You just dont get it, even after all this time. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049309)

No it does not just work!

It works perfectly for millions of people.

Poor Linux support

Are you serious? Have you been to a Linux conference lately? It's MacBooks as far as the eye can see, because Apple's the only vendor that doesn't have to cut corners on hardware quality.

Poor Windows support.

Seems to me that offering up Windows drivers and a free multi-booting utility is plenty for Apple to do. They're not in the business of making life better for the proles who have to settle for Windows, after all.

Move on geeks, app store is good for the rest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048877)

Apple isn't stupid. They understand the only way to have a secure device is to only allow the good guys' code to run on it. That's not their idea. Whitelisting software is the only way to be secure. Do a little reading on computer security, this is old news. I'm glad to see that apple is bringing the app store to OSX. I do like the fact that my non-jailbroken IPAD can only get stuf from the app store and that people have to pay and identify themselves and their Mac to develop for the app store, and the apps are tested by the app store folks. I don't trust the apps on my android phone at all. I toyed with the idea of writing apps for iOS for my iPad, even borrowed a mac mini to try out XCode. I read the procedure for even getting your code on devices to test. There is full accountability. There won't be much malware in that walled garden. I'm ok with the process, this is where it needs to go.

Re:Move on geeks, app store is good for the rest (1)

dittbub (2425592) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049141)

Apple is no AOL.

And yet Apple is popular around here.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40048889)

I can understand the average non-tech person liking Apple's stuff. While limited, it is simple and these people don't mind being locked in if they don't have to deal with issues that they will be unable to solve. But for the users of Slashdot (and I can name several users if necessary) to say how they love Apple products is absurd. For people who are suppose to be technologically adept to be using products that are locked down and have the sophistication of something made by fisher price telling others how great Apple products are? What happened here? I thought this site was full of people that liked technology that was open and robust that lets them do things the average person does not. It is just another sign that Slashdot is no longer a site for "nerds" anymore.

Re:And yet Apple is popular around here.. (5, Insightful)

evil_aaronm (671521) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049265)

I know - don't feed the trolls. But this is utter BS. "While limited" - how? On my MacBook Pro, I can run the suite of Office tools; I can compile and run common X11 apps; I can even connect serial devices and do bit-level twiddling if I want. I can open a shell and run bash or ksh scripts until the cows come home. I can edit HD video and multi-track audio. So, how am I limited by using Mac OS?

And then implying that all nerds must be SM freaks - referring to the configuration contortions that Linux users often have to go through to get just about anything to work? - is just ridiculous. Because, surely, any self-respecting nerd would rather fuck around trying to get drivers to work for some video card or printer rather than just do some actual work. Seriously? Ok, maybe things are better, now, with Linux; I wouldn't know - I stopped banging my head on the table some years ago, and bought a Mac. Now? I just focus on what I need to do rather than what configuration file I need to play with to get X11 up and running.

Maybe you just don't understand that some of us have more important things to do than mine, refine and then cast the materials needed for every metal and plastic piece of the mobo, then solder them by hand, one eye blindfolded, left handed, if you're normally right handed, to be considered a "true nerd." Maybe an abacus would make you feel more manly. Knock yourself out. I'll just put my formula into a spreadsheet, get my results to my boss, and then move on to the next assignment.

In other words: I can get down and dirty with a Mac, if I need to. Most of the time, I don't need to. I'm cool with that. You keep punching those bit codes into your Altair, though; we're all real impressed.

I don't believe in a complete iOS-ization (1)

m_gol (1491449) | more than 2 years ago | (#40048973)

I don't believe in a complete iOS-ization, at least not for the rest 5-6 years... It would be really difficult to reliably block terminal access which - by definition - bypasses all of Apple's measures like Gatekeeper etc. And for what purpose? It's not that an average Joe is going to play with the terminal anyway, it doesn't harm Apple's business IMO. At least I hope I'm right, it would be sad to have to go back to Linux just after switching to a Mac...

Encryption (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40049063)

When I can encrypt files before they get sent to iCloud using my public key then I might consider giving a shit about this feature. Until then I'm happy keeping my documents and other files in our Git repository.

Big F'ing Deal... (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049073)

These alarmist act like we can't do the same thing now with Dropbox and not be tied to a particular OS.

I use my dropbox account way more than my iCloud.

Easy = Bad (2, Insightful)

Stiletto (12066) | more than 2 years ago | (#40049113)

Only on Slashdot would making software usage "easier and more common" be seen as a bad thing.

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