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QT 2.3, With Anti-Aliased Fonts

CmdrTaco posted more than 13 years ago | from the bring-it-on-folks dept.

KDE 168

Hazzl noted the announcement that the New version of QT is out. While normally a release of a GUI toolkit isn't that big of a deal, but this release is significant since it is the first Open Source toolkit to make a non-beta release with X-Render support for Anti-Aliased Fonts. Congrats to all the Developers involved.

cancel ×

168 comments

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (4)

phutureboy (70690) | more than 13 years ago | (#378445)

I had AA fonts working for a while with KDE 2.0 and X4.0.2. Worked great when my card's DRI module was loaded, but without the hardware acceleration it was super slow.

I eventually reverted to my standard setup, cause all the different alpha/beta/gamma/dela libraries and such were causing my machine to freak out. I'll try it again when its stable.

On a related note, I upgraded to KDE 2.1 yesterday, and got-DAMN does it whoop ass. Faster, more polished, more solid, better looking, and has lots of cool new gizmos to play with. Konqueror has made great strides. It's on par with Internet Explorer 4.x right now, and if it keeps up the momentum, will catch up to IE 5.5 in no time. No need to complain any longer about Linux not having a world class browser. It's here now, or at least very, very close. Kmail 1.2 is also a really nice email client.

Can't wait to see the final GNOME 1.4. I keep waffling between the two environments. It's nice to see both of them progressing so well.

That was a long-ass, train-of-consciousness ramble, for which I make no apologies.

--

Re:Printing of Screenshots - FUD (1)

Azza (35304) | more than 13 years ago | (#378448)

Check your facts, dude.

Of course the smoothed screen fonts are bitmaps, your whole screen is a bitmap.

Windows renders to the screen context to view e.g. a web page, and since it's a color device, it takes advantage of that by anti-aliasing the fonts.

When you go to print, it re-renders the fonts to the printer context, which is probably mono, and of a significantly higher resolution than the screen, anyway, so it's a good idea to re-render.

After rendering (in either case) the result is a bitmap.

How can you be so wrong and yet so convinced of your correctness that you had to make an epmhatic statement like that? Feel stupid?

Re:AA font stuff is cool, but... (1)

cs668 (89484) | more than 13 years ago | (#378451)

It is off by default you have to set an environmental variable to turn it on for QT.

Re:Printing of Screenshots - FUD (1)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#378452)

I think he was talking printing of screenshots. To tell the truth, ANY OS will have this problem, so I have no idea WTF he is talking about. And who prints screenshots anyway?

Re:Printing of Screenshots (4)

Azza (35304) | more than 13 years ago | (#378454)

If you print screenshots, what do you expect? And who would print screenshots full of text to get a readable hardcopy of that text anyway?

Why don't you just choose the 'Print' option from the application, rather than capturing the screen and then printing it? That way you'll get output correctly formatted for the device you're writing to (e.g. the printer).

Re:..and in other news... (1)

rppp01 (236599) | more than 13 years ago | (#378456)

That is sweeeeet! I use grip on WindowMaker. After seeing all these new goodies, I may pull down KDE in order to run Konqueror. I just wish konq came as a seperate package.

QT != QuickTime (1)

yerricde (125198) | more than 13 years ago | (#378457)

video codec ... Sorensen ... Apple

You're thinking of QuickTime [apple.com] , rather than the communist-looking Qt toolkit [trolltech.com] used as KDE [kde.org] 's widget set.

textual display information imbedded into movies now?

<OT>This has been in quicktime for a while (since at least 3.0).</OT>

Back on topic: will qt free edition (or xfree86) ever be ported to windows 9x?


All your hallucinogen [pineight.com] are belong to us.

Re:"Enhanced detail"? (2)

SmokeSerpent (106200) | more than 13 years ago | (#378458)

It may very well be that I just don't "get" antialiasing...but I thought I understood the basic concept. That being the case, this question sounds funny to me.

Isn't "antialiasing" (to oversimplify) a form of "intelligent blurring"? (In this case, blurring the fonts corners a bit so that they blend a little smoother with the background).

If so...don't you LOSE detail (while improving the actual appearance) when you antialias?

Yes and no, depending on the implementation. A simple anti-aliasing of a given bit of text at a given resolution will decrease the detail of the font. A form of supersampling, using a higher resolution bitmap to generate an antialiased smaller version will add detail, at the expense of losing background detail. Luckily the background we're talking about is usually a solid color, so detail, schmetail...

Re:Falicies of OOP (1)

Shimmer (3036) | more than 13 years ago | (#378459)

Okay. And how exactly does any of this demonstrate the "fallacies of OOP"?

-- Brian

Re:Pricing? (2)

Arandir (19206) | more than 13 years ago | (#378460)

It's free for any Open Source application. You are not limited to the GPL (what kind of freedom would that be?). You can choose BSD, MPL, QPL, MIT, Artistic, or any other Free Source license.

Pretty nice... (1)

AFCArchvile (221494) | more than 13 years ago | (#378461)

...but is it sub-pixel antialiased? That was on CmdrTaco's GUI wish list.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (2)

cymen (8178) | more than 13 years ago | (#378462)

I agree with you on KDE 2.1 100% (if not 120%). I hadn't tried it in years (didn't really use X and when I did whatever lightwieght wm was fine) and I was astonished at how much it has improved. It is a completely different beast - extremely usable, looks good, feels good, works good. There are still a few annoyances but they are very minor. If you haven't tried KDE recently check out 2.1!

But... (3)

cyberdonny (46462) | more than 13 years ago | (#378463)

...will it support dead keys (accented characters, where you first press the accent, then the letter)? So far, this has been on and off for a while. 2.2.2 botched it, 2.2.3 fixed it, 2.2.4 botched it again... Somewhat hard to type French text, if the accents don't work properly.

Duh. QT is free dumbass. (2)

Gendou (234091) | more than 13 years ago | (#378467)

You'll notice that it's also under the LGPL. Sheesh.

Re:Pricing? (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#378469)

I'd like to see how they define UNIX platform. Does NT's POSIX count as a UNIX platform? Does BeOS count as a UNIX platform? This UNIX bigotry has got to stop! Making it free for OSS and pay for commercial is one thing. Doing the same for UNIX and Windows is just punishing a developer for not liking *NIX.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

jovlinger (55075) | more than 13 years ago | (#378470)

It is supposed to do so, but an overapplication of smoothing can make things look fuzzy, which will have your eyes trying to focus better. Of course, this is impossible as the original is blurry (by definition of AA).

This is where clear type and sub-pixel AA on LCDs kicks ass, as it doesn't suffer from the blur problem of CRTs.

There is an art to choosing good convolution kernels for AA, and judging from these comments, it seems that different people on different output devices have different optimal kernels. I hope the final product has this as a configuration option.

Re:Cool ... a release song! (2)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#378471)

Full lyrics and MP3 available [trolltech.com] on the TrollTech site! ;-)

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Re:What does the acronym QT stand for annyways? (1)

MSBob (307239) | more than 13 years ago | (#378473)

Quality?

Just a guess though.

I hope the rendering is improved... (3)

cymen (8178) | more than 13 years ago | (#378474)

I used a beta of Qt for a while with KDE 2.1 and while the anti-aliasing looks very good it seems to create more eyestrain than the anti-aliasing in Windows (2000 at the moment). Too much of a good thing...

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (2)

Alan Shutko (5101) | more than 13 years ago | (#378476)

Iirc, you can turn off AA fonts in the XftConfig for certain point sizes, if that's what you want.

When I tried an AAed KDE beta, I found that I wanted smaller fonts AAed, and it let me work with smaller point sizes than otherwise. Part of this is surely due to the fact that I had subpixel rendering on (yes, I have an LCD screen), and part is due to my own preferences/tolerance/whatever.

Re:QT = QuickTime! (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#378477)

You forget. The majority of computers run an OS that is not case sensitive. Thus, there is a very good chance that at the trademark office, Qt.tm == QT.tm

screenshots? (1)

kommander_kow (123676) | more than 13 years ago | (#378478)

where can we find some screenshots?? i wish i knew c++ to code apps for it

Re:KDE charges ahead (4)

JabberWokky (19442) | more than 13 years ago | (#378479)

powerful bindings for languages of all sorts--C++, java, python, perl, etc. The Gnome framework, IMHO, is extremely powerful, flexible,

Yes, Gnome is nice, but did you know that there are KDE bindings for C++, java, python and perl? Python is also the common scripting language built into most major apps. If you want to, you can even access all exposed internal functions in KDE apps at the command line (via dcop), allowing things like bash scripting of GUI programs.

I'm not saying Gnome is bad at all -- but since you're saying "First time I started using C++, I thought what a hideous hack!", I figured you might be under the assumption that you have to use C++ to develop KDE apps. Yes, KDE itself is written in C++, but its apps are open to several languages.

In fact, KDevelop also has templates and good support for building Gnome and commandline apps. So you can even use KDE while developing Gnome apps, if you'd like.

--
Evan

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

cymen (8178) | more than 13 years ago | (#378480)

Obviously we're not scientists here with little measurements for blood shot eyes, fatigue, and general wasting away. It's all just supposition and personal experience. If you can't deal with that then don't worry about it. The rest of the reasonable folks will continue on with life.

If you aren't trolling then simply don't worry about our fatigure/eye strain and go play with KDE w/ AA and see how it feels to you.

Re:i18n? (1)

cotcomsol (7395) | more than 13 years ago | (#378481)

Yes, Qt supports unicode on all supported platforms. And, unlike under MFC, you use the same API for everything, even Win95 vs NT/2000.

Re:Yeah! (1)

eric17 (53263) | more than 13 years ago | (#378482)

True enough. Ideally users should be able to open a "tuning wizard" that would be able to help you tune the system for speed vs glitz, and slimness vs bloat.

But in the meantime, there's no reason why elite users like yourself can't figure out how to turn stuff like this off, is there?

Re:What? This makes no sense (1)

DNAspark99 (218197) | more than 13 years ago | (#378483)

Ummm...I thought QT was used in KDE, GTK in gnome....

--

Re:QT != QuickTime (1)

Laplace (143876) | more than 13 years ago | (#378487)

>Back on topic: will qt free edition (or xfree86) >ever be ported to windows 9x? Probably not in this lifetime. Tolltech is interested in making a profit. They gain visibility through KDE, which they can then use to market their "write one, run anywhere" widget set. You can't blame them for wanting to turn a profit from their work. I'm just happy that KDE users benefit from their work. I love KDE2!

Re:Arabic looking bad unsmoothed? Rubbish! (1)

pivo (11957) | more than 13 years ago | (#378490)

Read 'em and weep, Linux people. Read 'em and weep.

Oooh, you're right! I'm swiching back to windoze right now! Hey, it's no big secret that Linux doesn't do AA as well as windows. Nobody's going to be shocked about this.

Any hints on "upgrading" to this? (2)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 13 years ago | (#378491)

I've been running KDE 2.1 on QT 2.2.4 and XFree86 4.0.2 just fine. (It's BEAUTIFUL, by the way!) Now I want to try anti-aliased fonts.

Firstly - I have the current CVS for the DRI drivers, which includes the Xft, Xrender, etc. library sections. I managed to get freetype2 built and installed (I think! There were some problems...), and configured the hosts.def file accordingly. I managed to get everything to build and install...but then KDE wouldn't start. (KSplash complaining about undefined symbols in the Xft library).

I figured maybe I needed to rebuild KDE (at least KDELIBS) against the new X stuff, so I tried. Firstly, the 2.1 configure script complains about 2.3.0 not being "QT >= 2.2.3", but I got around THAT. Trying to build, it errors out with similar complaints about undefined symbols in Xft...

So (to finally get to the point)...I figure either I need to rebuild QT (my next try), or I didn't actually successfully build freetype2, or I have to build all of X from scratch...

Anybody know any good "shortcuts" for me to add support for this feature? (I'm running on a "Slackware-Post-7.1" based distribution if it matters...)


---
"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"

Re:Windows has had anti-aliased fonts since... EVE (1)

Bi()hazard (323405) | more than 13 years ago | (#378494)

Mac OS has had anti-aliased fonts since...before EVER. maybe someday you will learn that windows sucks.

Re:KDE charges ahead (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#378496)

KDE develops in C++, GNOME develops in kludgey "object oriented" C.

There's nothing kludgy about the GTK object oriented model - in fact, the only kludges are in QT and KDE, which require horrific hacks and extra software layers just to allow you to use languages other than C++. So fuck off back to VB, and stop trying to be intelligent.

Re:screenshots? (1)

blancolioni (147353) | more than 13 years ago | (#378497)

Beautiful. I mean, really quite stunning. Latin characters are, well, so functional.

Re:i18n? (4)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#378498)

It is just as good everywhere - provided you don't forget to compile in Unicode support on Windows (otherwise you won't be able to cut and past Unicode text between Qt and other Windows applications). I've written a large application with Python and Qt that depends extensively on Unicode support: http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/linguistics, and I was very glad to see that my app worked equally well on Windows as on Linux.

Re:Of course it's significant... (1)

Ranger Rick (197) | more than 13 years ago | (#378499)

Perhaps it's a very large patch.

(a big delta)


1st Law Of Networking: Loose ends are bad, termination is good.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

Segfault 11 (201269) | more than 13 years ago | (#378500)

The smoothness of antialiasing certainly LOOKS better, but is it just me that thinks antialiasing causes *LESS* eyestrain than jaggies?

Re:Pretty nice... (2)

Ig0r (154739) | more than 13 years ago | (#378501)

It uses the XRender extentions which uses X to do the AA work.
If you'd have bothered to read about this at all you'd realize that, yes, X does do sub-pixel AA if you want it to.

--

SGI has/had great fonts - contribute?? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#378505)

after all they're contributing XFS why not a few fonts while they're at it ... ;-) As I recall they were type1 but still very nice.

ok ok (1)

evil-beaver (15985) | more than 13 years ago | (#378507)

antialiased fonts, now you guys are really trying to get me to use Linux again aren't you. hmmm.....tempting very tempting....

Looks like Dennis Powell hangs out on Slashdot. (1)

Magnus Pym (237274) | more than 13 years ago | (#378510)

I recognize the style, or lack thereof. Vague assertions, no substance.

Magnus.

Re:Any hints on "upgrading" to this? (2)

Raven667 (14867) | more than 13 years ago | (#378513)

While I can't confirm this right now I think you are over-thinking this upgrade. AFAIK all you need to do is upgrade the libqt.so library to 2.3.0 (rpm -U, apt-get) and set an environment variable (QT_XFT, or something). If your XFree 4.0.2 was compiled with XRender (xdpyinfo to make sure) then it should "Just Work"(tm).

Re:But... (2)

BlowCat (216402) | more than 13 years ago | (#378514)

You shouldn't drop a working feature only because you don't like those who need it. It is like removing the ability to spoof messages from LICQ just because you believe it's immoral.

In the free software world, if you let someone down, the project can just fork. Get used to it.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

sh4de (93527) | more than 13 years ago | (#378515)

There's quite a bit of room for improvement. Most individual characters look good as they are now, but kerning and tracking still need fixing. The letters are spaced unevenly and generally too close to each other.

Here's a screenshot [janton.fi] showing OmniWeb b9 on Mac OS X Public Beta and the QT font renderer side by side. The difference in quality is obvious.

How to work around this problem in QT, I don't know. Maybe rendering text to an offscreen buffer one line at a time, and anti-aliasing it as whole would yield better results.

Also, judging from the screenshot, it seems that the QT engine doesn't do hinting properly or the fonts lack the hinting data to begin with. Assuming that those fonts are Truetype, that is.

Re:Pricing? (2)

yerricde (125198) | more than 13 years ago | (#378516)

I'd like to see how they define UNIX platform.

You mean for licensing purposes? Qt Free is GPL, so you can port it to any platform.

Does NT's POSIX count as a UNIX platform? Does BeOS count as a UNIX platform?

Currently, Qt Free requires a working POSIX subsystem (NT's is subpar but Red Hat Cygwin [redhat.com] is good) and an X11 server. XFree86 works on Windows NT/2K [redhat.com] but not on 9x because of stupid assumptions in the design of Windows 9x's USER and GDI servers. (Why oh why didn't Microsoft just release NT 4 as Windows 95?)

free for OSS and pay for commercial is one thing. Doing the same for UNIX and Windows is just punishing a developer for not liking *NIX.

It's not punishing but instead "not wasting effort on porting a free software package to an environment that's thought to be hostile to free software."


All your hallucinogen [pineight.com] are belong to us.

Re:Pretty nice... (1)

AFCArchvile (221494) | more than 13 years ago | (#378517)

Ouch. A simple yes would've sufficed.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (3)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 13 years ago | (#378519)

It's not as simple as that. I know on my LinuxPPC system, the fonts look like hell. And that's even the TrueType fonts that I, um, ripped off from the Mac OS and serve using xfstt.

The fonts under Linux are fairly legible -- provided you find the one or two point sizes that actually look good, so the loops aren't closing up, etc. But under the Mac OS, ALL the point sizes look fine!

Maybe it has something to do with the fonts for the Mac being designed for a 72 dpi screen resolution, while X11 is designed at 75 dpi? But I thought TrueType was supposed to solve the resolution-dependence problem...

Truly perplexing, this rotten X fonts thing.
--

..and in other news... (1)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#378520)

This was announced [kde.org] yesterday and since dot.kde.org is down with ISP trouble I figured I'd mention it here:

since some minutes ago the audiocd: io-slave can save the ripped audio files in mp3- (using LAME) or Ogg-Vorbis format (using libvorbis). Kudos go to Carsten Duvenhorst . There are additional top-level dirs "MP3" and "Ogg Vorbis", under them the tracks are listed with extension ".mp3" and ".ogg". When copied from there the destination is automatically compressed by one of the methods. If the CD-info was backed by CDDB also Id3V1 tags are created for the mp3 case, and normal tags for vorbis.

You can now simply rip the contents of a complete CD from konqui by simply opening the "MP3/" directory selecting all files there, and copy them to another real directory, which is rather cool. (The only thing which must be done, is to give the dest dir a good name, as the mp3 dir has no subdir identifying the CD). The bitrate for mp3 can be selected by an "br=196" (e.g. to set it to 196 KBps) query argument to the URL.

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Re:screenshots? (2)

Enahs (1606) | more than 13 years ago | (#378521)

Take a look here. [sourceforge.net]

Re:screenshots? (2)

swb (14022) | more than 13 years ago | (#378522)

Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but isn't some of the enhanced detail provided by antialiasing lost in a jpeg bitmap?

Pricing? (1)

SnapShot (171582) | more than 13 years ago | (#378523)

Am I missing something? Is there a way to try this out without putting down $1600 buck? How about a student discount?

Don't get me wrong I think a good library/set of tools should charge what it's worth. But, I'd like to try it out and I don't think I can get my company to simply shell out the cash.

AA and eyestrain (3)

AJWM (19027) | more than 13 years ago | (#378524)

I think I see the problem. (Er, no pun intended.)

On my desk as I type this, I have a laptop with a nice, crisp (but jaggy) non-anti-aliased display, and another machine running an older version of Linux and X displayed on a cheap 14" monitor that achieves anti-aliasing but the simple method of having a slightly out-of-focus display. (Dang cheap magnet coils, or something). I can read either at length without bother.

However, when I look at a screen shot of an antialiased display on this nice crisp LCD, it bugs me. I think the problem is that because the rest of the screen has sharp lines and text, my eyes keep trying to bring the AA'd text into focus -- obviously without success. On the CRT, however, the whole screen is "soft focus" so my eyes just give up and go with the flow.

Shrug. As long as it's something I can turn off (by font, perhaps?), I like the idea. Maybe its just that my eyes burned out long ago reading dot-matrix printouts and 80x25 character dumb terminal screens. They expect anything on a monitor to be jaggy :)

Re:screenshots? (5)

anaZ (917) | more than 13 years ago | (#378525)

Here's a screenshot for konqueror showing an arabic webpage [arablug.org] :-)
Without anti-aliasing, arabic letters look very bad...

Anas

Re:Arabic looking bad unsmoothed? Rubbish! (1)

mvuijlst (134514) | more than 13 years ago | (#378528)

Yes, I am right. I spend my days looking at a screen, so I do care what the letters on that screen look like. Oh well, never mind, maybe one of those open-source chappies will go take a look at Microsoft's white papers and bother to implement font smoothing the way it should be done.

Re:KDE charges ahead (2)

Skeezix (14602) | more than 13 years ago | (#378530)

I was indeed aware of KDE's language bindings. It's very good to see Gnome and KDE embrace language flexibility and choice. I haven't played around with KDevelop much--didn't know it could be used for Gnome development. I'll have to give it a shot. I'm a fan of using a combination of tools to get the job done. I use gdb and vim for the most part while in UNIX and at work I'm a Visual C++ developer.
----

Freenet mirror of 2.3.0 (4)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#378532)

The Trolltech copy of the 2.3.0 source is really slow, so I have mirrored it in Freenet [freenetproject.org] for those who want it. Freenet users can find it at freenet:KSK@qt-x11-2.3.0.tar.gz [127.0.0.1] .

--

Re:Any hints on "upgrading" to this? (2)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 13 years ago | (#378534)

If your XFree 4.0.2 was compiled with XRender (xdpyinfo to make sure) then it should "Just Work"(tm)

The catch is (I THINK!) that Xfree86 support for freetype2 is optional, and not compiled by default. RENDER is in my xdpyinfo list, but I don't recall compiling it with freetype2 support - hence all of the recompiling I just tried...

The "undefined symbol" errors looked like they were all related to the truetype aliasing and such, which is what makes me wonder if my build of freetype2 was incomplete...


---
"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"

Re:what dev tools? (1)

Double Invagination (321582) | more than 13 years ago | (#378536)

You can use the fantastic kdevelop, which now comes bundled with KDE 2.1, and QT designer, a GUI design tool. The combo works very well. Reminds me of MS Visual Studio... but better.

Cool! With LINE, antialiased Qt on windows, FREE! (2)

Sleepy (4551) | more than 13 years ago | (#378537)

Heh. One more reason for the LINE project to succeed. ;)

Re:Pricing? (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#378538)

Okay, I didn't realize it'd require a port. However, I take offense to your "hostile to free software" comment. Windows has an extensive freeward community, and just because a person prefers to work in Windows rather than deal with the POS that is POSIX and X (its entirely a matter of preference, I can't stand non-OO GUI environments and four letter function call names offend my sense of cleanliness) doesn't make that person in any way hostile to free software. OSS software does not need to run on an OSSOS.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (2)

Sludge (1234) | more than 13 years ago | (#378539)

Interesting find. Perhaps straight anti aliasing isn't the best solution. I haven't used QT or seen this anti-aliasing is action, but perhaps it would be best to increase the pixels intensity after anti aliasing them so that the brightness of the source colour would be visible in the most intense part of the destination anti aliased text.

Re:..and in other news... (1)

Karma Sucks (127136) | more than 13 years ago | (#378540)

In this context, these screenshots [dhs.org] are pretty cool!

AA font stuff is cool, but... (1)

gizmoNaut (197527) | more than 13 years ago | (#378541)

...will there be a way to turn it off? I doubt it's perfect for all people and all conditions, particularly in this early stage.

And for that matter, when will there be a Linux distro with TT font installation that consists of nothing more than copying the font to a directory? Even running a custom applet to install fonts isn't always the right answer (think: programmatic operation).

Re:Pricing? (2)

SnapShot (171582) | more than 13 years ago | (#378542)

Never mind, just found the reference to Free Edition [trolltech.com] . Just what I was looking for...

Re:KDE charges ahead (5)

Skeezix (14602) | more than 13 years ago | (#378543)

Actually, the Gnome codebase is quite well maintained. It's not perfect, but we're working on it. Perhaps you could list specific hard-core facts, rather than making assertions with no basis. If you do have a basis for saying that Gnome will collapse under its own weight in a few months, I'd love to hear it. As someone who has spent significant time looking at the Gnome framework, and being both a C and C++ developer, I can attest to the flexibility of the core C-based architecture with powerful bindings for languages of all sorts--C++, java, python, perl, etc. The Gnome framework, IMHO, is extremely powerful, flexible, and getting even better all the time. Now of course, if you're not used to something you may find it confusing at first. :) First time I started using C++, I thought what a hideous hack! With time I've come to appreciate the advantages of both C and C++. It's great to be able to use both.
----

"I can see clearly now" (1)

danimo (219366) | more than 13 years ago | (#378544)

This is the first version of a GUI toolkit that has it's own song as mp3 [trolltech.com] . Very nice cover indeed and a funny idea.

Re:Pricing? (1)

dfaure (115987) | more than 13 years ago | (#378545)

Pricing ?? Qt is free - just try it. You can develop free software with it, for free.

Of course if you want to develop closed-source commercial software it's another story, but if you want to "try this out" then just go ahead and download it.

Printing of Screenshots (3)

FonkiE (28352) | more than 13 years ago | (#378546)


With anti-aliased fonts printing of screenshots is nearly impossible, because of the anti-aliasing: the printer can't re-aliase and then do it's own anti-aliasing. It anti-aliases the fonts again, therefore you can read a 1280x1024 screen with a small font (aliased or not), but you can't read the printout if aliased ...

It would be nice to rerender for a printout - without aliasing ;-)

Windows has this problem too.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (5)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 13 years ago | (#378547)

Perhaps it isn't the anti-aliasing as much as the fonts. All the fonts I've seen used in screenshots of AA QT looked pretty ugly. In general, Windows has higher-quality fonts than Linux.

In fact, as I look over this page in Internet Explorer 5.5 on Win98, I notice that while there are fonts drawn all over the screen (menus, address bar, window title bar, text on webpage, status bar, Start menu, etc) there are only two places on the entire screen using AA fonts: The two large bold headers on the comment I'm replying to. Every other font on the screen is NOT AA! When you use a windows machine, you're only looking at AA fonts perhaps 10% of the time. No system fonts are anti-aliased. They just have better quality fonts.

Someone needs to start a Open Fonts project. Well, probably someone has already. Someone needs to promote existing Open Fonts projects, then, becuase X is in need of some better fonts (that look good and are readable at ALL sizes).

[me@localhost]$ prolog
| ?- god.
! Existence error in god/0

Re:AA font stuff is cool, but... (2)

gengee (124713) | more than 13 years ago | (#378548)

Mandrake does what you're looking for. You can simply copy a truetype font to /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/drakfont, or use their DrakFont utility. If you have Windows installed, it will auto import all your windows fonts.
signature smigmature

Will they ever learn? Guess not. (2)

mvuijlst (134514) | more than 13 years ago | (#378549)

Font anti-aliasing is not just averaging the rendered font pixels with the background. When you do that, vertical and horizontal strokes will look blurry, and details like serifs and whatnot disappear.
A good font smoother -- like the one in Microsoft OSes ever since Win95 Plus Pack (over five years ago, folks!) -- only anti-aliases problem areas in diagonals and curves. Furthermore, it should only be applied to text above a certain type size.

For more details, see Microsoft Typgraphy [microsoft.com] . For an example of how not to do things, see TN 1149: Smoothing Fonts [apple.com] at Apple [apple.com] .

Falicies of OOP (2)

EXTomar (78739) | more than 13 years ago | (#378550)

One of the main reasons GNOME is using C as opposed to C++ is that C is more portable and far more supported across platforms. If you are stuck on an AIX RS6000 machine with a "quirky" compiler you'll understand how this goes.

And another thing, just because something is written in C automatically means no "object oriented" code. You can accomplish OOP in C by various mechanisms that all work even though C itself doesn't naitively support OOP. X (which KDE depends on anyway) and Gnome and Win32 all work on the concept of a modifying a "black box object". It is interesting to note that there are C++ bindings built on these toolkits!

And let us not forget that OOP code doesn't automatically mean better written code. Some of the neatest code I've seen (in Perl btw) doesn't require OOP. :-)

Does Gnome need to be written in C++? No because they found that the extra synax was just sugar. I have no problem with Gnome and GTK being written in C because others will come along and implement C++ wrapping around it(just like MFC).

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

mutende (13564) | more than 13 years ago | (#378551)

For those wanting to play with AA fonts in KDE make sure you grab the truetype font package from here: http://keithp.com/~keithp/fonts/truetype.tar.gz

Debian users can do an "apt-get install msttcorefonts".

// Klaus
--

"Enhanced detail"? (2)

Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) | more than 13 years ago | (#378552)

isn't some of the enhanced detail provided by antialiasing lost in a jpeg bitmap?

It may very well be that I just don't "get" antialiasing...but I thought I understood the basic concept. That being the case, this question sounds funny to me.

Isn't "antialiasing" (to oversimplify) a form of "intelligent blurring"? (In this case, blurring the fonts corners a bit so that they blend a little smoother with the background).

If so...don't you LOSE detail (while improving the actual appearance) when you antialias?


---
"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

Com2Kid (142006) | more than 13 years ago | (#378553)

It's quite easy actualy.

If you can normaly read a computer moniter for 8hrs without stoping, and with antialiasing you can only manage 30 minutes, and this happens on repeated occasions, and turning off the AA make the pain go away, then the odds are that the antialiasing is that which is causing the strain!

Re:Wow! (2)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 13 years ago | (#378554)

Sort of like Microsofties getting excited about Microsoft finally producing a stable OS after only 22 years of trying.

i18n? (2)

MSBob (307239) | more than 13 years ago | (#378555)

What is the QT's support for internationalization on all platforms. I know that KDE runs in 33 languages and that QT is Unicode based. What I'd like to find out (because I'm selecting a GUI toolkit for my company) is whether Unicode is this good on all platforms that QT supports including Win95/98? Anyone with some experience with QT on these particular OSes?

WINE (1)

BlowCat (216402) | more than 13 years ago | (#378560)

WINE 1.0 has support for antialiasing. But it probably doesn't qualify because it does it on the client side, i.e. it works with XFree86-3.x.x and even Exceed if you are such a pervert :-)

Re:Of course it's significant... (1)

ocie (6659) | more than 13 years ago | (#378566)

Me flunk English? That's unpossible -- Ralph Wiggam

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

StandardDeviant (122674) | more than 13 years ago | (#378571)

Well, you can download the "web fonts" from microsoft. I forget the link, but it does make surfing using a free unix a bit nicer due to all the crappy web designers that automatically use font style=verbana whether they need to or not. :-) See the howto that was called something like X11-Font-Deuglification for the link IIRC.


--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org [geekaustin.org]

Re:AA font stuff is cool, but... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#378572)

Yes, you can either turn it off. You can do this per application or globally. It can be done by setting an environment-variable or in KDE by using recent CVS which gives you a checkbox in kcontrol -> Look&Feel -> Styles.

Re:i18n? (1)

llzackll (68018) | more than 13 years ago | (#378573)

WinNT supports unicode natively, Win95/98 doesn't. I'm not sure how Unicode is implemented in QT, but this could be a factor.

So what exactly... (1)

The Step Child (216708) | more than 13 years ago | (#378574)

...is the difference between interpolation and anti-aliasing?

In hardware (1)

Per Wigren (5315) | more than 13 years ago | (#378575)

I have hardware fullscreen anti-aliasing built into my old 20" monitor!

Re:"Enhanced detail"? (1)

swb (14022) | more than 13 years ago | (#378576)

Right, the idea being that the blurring allows a level of smoothness the screen cannot deliver.

The issue I had was that the previous poster was showing a JPEG bitmap of what it looked like. Since JPEG is a lossy format, the "detail" I was looking for was the specific blurring of type edges and I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is antialiasing or JPEG artifacts..

Re:KDE charges ahead (1)

EllisDees (268037) | more than 13 years ago | (#378577)

I take it you haven't looked at Gnome lately? I've got both on my system, and they are approximately equivalent in both form and function.

Debian (Unstable) Users had this 2 weeks ago. (1)

exekewtable (130076) | more than 13 years ago | (#378578)

It was a matter of apt-get update, apt-get upgrade and tweaking the XftConfig file to include your Truetype font dirs.
Note that you do need to get some decent fonts from somwhere that support antialiasing. Not all Truetype fonts do. Alot of nice Windows fonts support AA tho.
A good source of free fonts is here: http://www.fontfreak.com [fontfreak.com]
If debian users need more help the debian-kde mailing list is active and helpful.
At this point I would also like to thank Ivan the maintainer for KDE in debian. He is doing an awesome job!

Dave

What does the acronym QT stand for annyways? (1)

paranormalized (278300) | more than 13 years ago | (#378579)

I mean, I think the T stands for toolkit, but what's with the Q?

Quick Toolkit? Quickie Toolkit? QuomndrTaco Toolkit? (ducks and runs)

-----
IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
-----

Re:i18n? (1)

MSBob (307239) | more than 13 years ago | (#378580)

That's exactly what I'm wondering about.

NVidia (1)

GoRK (10018) | more than 13 years ago | (#378581)

Now if only NVidia had RENDER extension support in its binary driver........ argh

~GoRK

DELA (1)

gazz (101967) | more than 13 years ago | (#378584)

http://www.comnet.ca/~foxtrot/dela/
/me wonders how to code an X-Render compatible toon....

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

stilwebm (129567) | more than 13 years ago | (#378588)

Anyone have some screenshots? The only ones I could find on the page were not anti-aliased.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (2)

cymen (8178) | more than 13 years ago | (#378589)

Pretty much what the other poster replied to you said... Part of it is that the AA font setup in KDE 2.1 is a bit of a crapper. I'm sure it'll improve drastically. It was basically sitting there comparing browsing the net in KDE/Qt Anti-Aliased compared to Windows 2000. My eyes just didn't get as tired in the evil OS. This was over multiple days too so no 15 minute comparision :).

For those wanting to play with AA fonts in KDE make sure you grab the truetype font package from here: http://keithp.com/~keithp/fonts/truetype.tar.gz [keithp.com]

Without that font pack all my truetype fonts where bold when => 8 point size. Yes I did setup all the font.scale/alias crap... Probably occurred because I was missing the Xft* doc in the font archive mentioned above (not the config, a file that goes in the font dir).

This was all with the "nvidia" X server so perhaps the problem is there and not Qt/KDE...

GTK? (1)

CaseStudy (119864) | more than 13 years ago | (#378598)

Anyone know when similar improvements to GTK are coming out? I like AA fonts (it's the only way for me to use some fonts on an 800x600 laptop screen), but KDE's too big for my tastes.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (1)

TobyWong (168498) | more than 13 years ago | (#378599)

What the fuck it was a valid question and I get modded down???? I will ask again then.... how does one measure/compare eye strain?

Arabic looking bad unsmoothed? Rubbish! (3)

mvuijlst (134514) | more than 13 years ago | (#378601)

Actually an Arabic letter benefits from good screen fonts as much as the next glyph. When you do your homework and make actual screen fonts, like, oh, say, Microsoft does, you don't end up with a badly anti-aliased page but with a page that can be read without getting a splitting headache. I put a simple side-to side comparison of Arabic in Linux and Windows [zog.org] on-line for anyone who cares to look at the actual facts before putting Microsoft down. The sample on the far right is the same text as the two previous ones, but this time in larger size where Microsoft's font smoothing does kick in.

Read 'em and weep, Linux people. Read 'em and weep.

Re:So what exactly... (3)

Anonymous Colin (69389) | more than 13 years ago | (#378602)

Interpolation is an avaraging pixel values. When e.g. a texture in a 3-d model is enlarged (or shrunk) to fit a surface, the pixel values are calculated with interpolation.

Anti-aliasing is any technique that makes edges look sharper to the human eye. Note that this applies to object edges in 3-D models every bit as much as in text.

In practice, if you use interpolation to calculate the pixel values along the representation of a line, only thoes pixels that wholly or partially contain the line will be affected. With AA, pixels that do not contain any part of the line, but are "near" the line, may be drawn in a subtly different colour to fool the eye into seeing a smoother edge.

Take a screen capture of some AA text and blow it up in the gimp so that you can see the pixels, then take a look around the text edges - it's quite enlightening.

P.s., although I could easily give formulas for interpolation (it's simple linear interpolation), I don't offhand know what the calculations for AA are - but you can look them up with Google as easily as me, so its left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:I hope the rendering is improved... (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#378603)

Maybe the Mac truetype renderer is just better? Either way, the best truetype renderer out there seems to BitStream's FontFusion. QNX RtP's text looks AMAZING.

Yeah! (1)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 13 years ago | (#378604)

Another thing that will make my new machine slower than the old one.
--

Cool ... a release song! (3)

Frag-A-Muffin (5490) | more than 13 years ago | (#378608)

"I can see clearly now two-three has come,
I can see all the objects on the page
Gone are the dark fonts that made my head ache
Thanks to those bright, bright Trolls, hacking away"


I think EVERY release of any software should come with a song! :)
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