Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Kinect In the Operating Room

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the hands-off dept.

Input Devices 54

colinneagle writes with an excerpt from Network World: "Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital in London began trials of a Kinect-driven camera last week that would sense body position, and by waving his or her hands, the surgeon can sift through medical images, such as CT scans or real-time X-rays, while in the middle of an operation. During surgery, a surgeon will stop and consult medical images anywhere from once an hour to every few minutes. So the surgeon doesn't have to leave the table, the doctor will work with assistants, but sometimes, if you want things done to your satisfaction, you have to do it yourself. Dr. Tom Carrell, a consultant vascular surgeon at Guy's and St Thomas', described an operation on a patient's aorta earlier this month to New Scientist. 'Up until now, I'd been calling out across the room to one of our technical assistants, asking them to manipulate the image, rotate one way, rotate the other, pan up, pan down, zoom in, zoom out.' With the Kinect, he says, 'I had very intuitive control.'"

cancel ×

54 comments

Real surgeons use Siri (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40052787)

"Siri, show me an X-Ray of Samuel Ray."

"Playing songs by... Sugar Ray."

"Siri, what allergies does Susan Fay have?"

"Let me see... Here are allergists near Santa Fe."

Should be like school (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40052795)

In school during exams you arent allowed to refer to reference materials
Why must real life operations be any different?
Surgeons and doctors shouldnt cheat
(brings back memories about memorising the Java AWT API)

school needs to be the other way open book (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052867)

school needs to be the other way open book / open reference.

Do want people who can cram for tests and pass with no idea on how to do what it covers or people who what they doing and know how to look up stuff they need?

Even more so in a tech job memorising the Java AWT API So some PHB will hire some with a good GPA due to being good at taking tests vs some who did the work on there own or went to a test school where a test is more likely to cover real WORK.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053081)

If it is open book, what's the point of testing? It might work if the only passing grade is 100%, I guess. But the point of testing is to test someone's knowledge and possibly experience. Not their ability to copy stuff out of a book.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (1)

Local ID10T (790134) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053149)

In the real world what matters is whether you can find the right answer quickly, not whether you pulled it out of your ass, out of a book, or off google. The ability to get it done right and move on to whatever crisis is next is what counts.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40053473)

If every problem you solve in the real world is already in books, you're well on your way to being outsourced to India. And when working on a problem that isn't yet solved (or at least published), having a wide knowledge of relevant subjects means you are more likely to think of solutions for isomorphic problems, to think of solutions for other problems that could be easily modified into a solution for your problem, etc.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (3, Insightful)

Capt. Skinny (969540) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053293)

If you're taking tests where you can copy the answers directly out of a book, then your instructor has failed. A successful test should reveal a person's understanding of the subject matter, not a person's ability to recollect details without applying them.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (0)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053417)

but do you want the book answer or some on Google who has done it for real now for tech jobs Google is grate to look up stuff and some times you get more then 1 answer.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (2)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#40055867)

and some times you get more then 1 answer.

And, better yet, all of them are wrong, though grammatically correct.

Re:school needs to be the other way open book (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40053389)

I'm sorry, but I actually want my doctor to have memorized the names, locations, functions, and connections of every single part of the human body prior to operating on me so that the team of people fixing me are all on the same page. Doctors have to be able to do that because if they forget something and fuck up because of it someone will pay the price.

Re:Should be like school (1)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052939)

The funniest thing about a Kinect in a medical environment is that much more powerful and precise 3D tracking cameras are already relatively commonplace for intricate surgeries like hip replacement. These tend to be instruments costing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, with code that has actually been verified. (Suffice to say this headline was terrifying until I realised it was just about looking through a picture book.)

...but to answer your question, I find it highly likely that you already know the (flawed) answer.

Re:Should be like school (2)

LocalH (28506) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052959)

Doesn't seem like they're "cheating" to me, if they're looking at images taken from the patient they are operating on.

Re:Should be like school (3, Insightful)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053069)

First lesson about anatomy; there are no normal bodies. We are all individuals.

meh (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052803)

it's been done. [youtube.com] I don't know what they're so excited about.

Re:meh (1)

Capt. Skinny (969540) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053309)

He has to move the photos from one computer to another using sneakernet? How archaic.

Canadians did this a year ago ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40053701)

...far be it from me to steal karma from a Tom Cruise movie.

Xbox Kinect in the hospital operating room [youtube.com]

copycat (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40052885)

This exact kinect image manipulation scheme was shown on Discovery channel? like 6 months ago.
Except it was a hospital in Canada.

Stark Industries interface (1)

ThunderBird89 (1293256) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052903)

To be honest, I've been waiting for this since day one. I'm even puzzled why Microsoft didn't release this to the industry world before the gaming world, since it has such potential in other areas too, especially if we can make the rest of the Stark Industries light and magic happen (reliable voice recognition and free-space three-dimensional holographic projection).

That way, surgeons (to stick with the article's example) would be able to view the data anywhere over the surgical site, architects and engineers would be able to manipulate models in real-time 3D view naturally, which would also enhance presentation to their clients, not just the design workflow.

Re:Stark Industries interface (3, Informative)

Oxford_Comma_Lover (1679530) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052955)

Probably their X-Box people are the ones who developed it, so that was where its use originated. Also, starting w/ X-box starts it as something that is a great new toy which has lots of really useful industrial applications--it's much better marketing than making it a piece of medical or industrial equipment first.

Re:Stark Industries interface (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052965)

As best I can tell, MS purchased the kinect technology with the relatively narrow objective of coming up with something that could beat the Wii's motion-gimmick factor without requiring a new generation of console. They didn't even do the traditional vapor-announce-to-discourage-competitors of a Windows SDK until well after they had finished losing their shit at the people who went ahead and made their own. I don't know if they got a good price from the guys they licensed it from, based on some agreement to limit the scope to cheap gaming stuff, or whether they were just feeling amazingly shortsighted...

It is more curious that the company that MS licensed the tech from hadn't been pushing it left, right, and center before the Kinect made headlines. Even if their lower-volume hardware was a few grand a pop, they could still have found plenty of buyers in markets where that is entirely reasonable.

Re:Stark Industries interface (1)

swalve (1980968) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053047)

Honestly, the only reason this is a good thing for surgeons is that they can't directly manipulate the computer because of sterility issues. Besides that application, it doesn't seem like a very intuitive interface for much of anything besides playing games.

Re:Stark Industries interface (1)

ThunderBird89 (1293256) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053369)

I'm not exactly sure...

Take a CAT-scan, for example. They are done in 3D right away, so one could have a high-resolution scan of the affected area, and look at it on the monitor/over the surgical site (if we look ahead and imagine a holographic interface to boot, because why not), then take hold of the model with their off hand, and rotate it to look at it from different angles by rotating his/her hand, while the dominant hand keeps working, say, by holding a clamp. That seems very useful to me.

Re:Stark Industries interface (1)

foniksonik (573572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053423)

Remote one handed manipulation of data on a computer with immediate feedback?

I expect this to become a default interface for lots of tech.

Think of it like magic. Imagine having an invisible remote control for anything. One you can't lose. Up, down, left, right and select. That's all you really need with a good UI for feedback.

Think microwave, oven, tv, dishwasher, air, climate control, media center. Think vending machines, fast food menus, ATM, hotel check-in.

It's a touch screen without the need to touch (or leave greasy marks).

Re:Stark Industries interface (1)

tomhath (637240) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053215)

This would be illegal in the US, because the Kinect hasn't been certified as a medical device by the FDA. And the first time one conked out during a surgery that had a bad outcome Microsoft would be sued for $$$

Re:Stark Industries interface (2)

ThunderBird89 (1293256) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053413)

There's not a lot of certification to be done, to be brutally honest. In fact, none, it's not a medical device as such, since it's not used to actually operate on the patient. As for conking out, the surgeon should still be able to complete the procedure, or they may fall back to using assistants in the heat of the moment. Those are always available...

Of course, I'm only speaking as a layperson regarding the certification. But that's what would be logical, just spray the thing with a fast-evaporating disinfectant, and be done with it, it doesn't have to deal with the patient or the surgeon directly anyway...

Re:Stark Industries interface (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40053975)

I would assume that if it's in the OR it's a medical device. As far as lawsuits, remember this is medical malpractice we're talking about; all that's necessary is to convince the majority of the people on a jury to give an award. John Edwards made tens of millions of dollars suing doctors because children were born with birth defects, like that was the doctor's fault.

Re:Stark Industries interface (2)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#40054273)

We use perfectly normal computers with plain old keyboards and mice in ORs all the time. As long as it's not connected to the patient or being used for diagnosis or treatment, it's not a medical device. A certified diagnostic-grade monitor for a radiologist is a medical device, for example, but the monitors the rest of us use to look at films are nothing special.

Re:Stark Industries interface (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40056145)

This. Though we do cover ours with easy-clean splashproof membranes.

Kinect driving PACS just sounds like an obvious win. Imma talk to our programming team and some of the nerdier consultants!

Fatal gesturing (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40052935)

Just make sure that he puts the scalpel down before doing all that gesturing.

Re:Fatal gesturing (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052973)

Fatality!

hand gestures vs voice or foot control (4, Interesting)

optimism (2183618) | more than 2 years ago | (#40052985)

...by waving his or her hands, the surgeon can sift through medical images, such as CT scans or real-time X-rays, while in the middle of an operation

I know that everyone has different UI proclivities, but I have trouble understanding this one.

Seems to me, the ideal interface would allow the surgeon to use it without removing their hands from their work, or wasting energy flailing their hands around to get the info they want, or moving their vision elsewhere, etc.

If voice control doesn't work for them, I'd suggest a set of foot pedals to keep their hands free. That works well for guitarists, who also have to make precision hand movements.

Also perhaps a heads-up display. That works for fighter pilots, who need to stay absolutely focused on task.

That said, since my life could be quite literally in a surgeon's hands, I want them to be as comfortable as possible with whatever UI they choose. So having another option is good. :)

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (1)

Capt. Skinny (969540) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053345)

allow the surgeon to use it without removing their hands from their work... I'd suggest a set of foot pedals

Personally, I'd prefer that my surgeon not be standing on one foot while wielding a scalpel.

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (1)

FunkDup (995643) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053795)

Multitasking strikes me as being a bad idea too.

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (2)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053667)

...by waving his or her hands, the surgeon can sift through medical images, such as CT scans or real-time X-rays, while in the middle of an operation

I know that everyone has different UI proclivities, but I have trouble understanding this one.

Seems to me, the ideal interface would allow the surgeon to use it without removing their hands from their work, or wasting energy flailing their hands around to get the info they want, or moving their vision elsewhere, etc.

If voice control doesn't work for them, I'd suggest a set of foot pedals to keep their hands free. That works well for guitarists, who also have to make precision hand movements.

Also perhaps a heads-up display. That works for fighter pilots, who need to stay absolutely focused on task.

That said, since my life could be quite literally in a surgeon's hands, I want them to be as comfortable as possible with whatever UI they choose. So having another option is good. :)

Actually, they already use footpedals for this in many hospitals. Works quite well. A much more low tech approach would be "Nurse, next page" and a nurse a keyboard and mouse would do the work. The reason, the doctors have had to leave the table in the past had to do with they were viewing physical images or crt screens, neither of which work very well right at the operating table. Now, with flat panel screens and even x-rays are digitized, they can have it right there in a very small footprint. The question, is how best for the surgeon to access the info?

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (2)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#40054311)

Foot controls are used for cautery or triggering x-ray images in a lot of cases. The problem vs a guitarist's foot pedals is that a surgeon can't see his and operate at the same time - the pedals have to be placed under the operative table. This limits the precision of what they can be used for. Ophthalmologists have a much more precise set of foot controls because they can sit down for surgery and thus don't need to worry about losing balance while searching for the proper control with their foot. Heads-up displays work for fighter pilots because they're already looking outside. Surgeons are usually looking straight down into the field - there's nowhere to put a screen to reflect the HUD image.

This is pretty interesting, but it seems like it would really only be useful for endovascular cases - where the surgeon is attempting to guide wires into a specific artery or vein and deploy some sort of device without cutting the patient open.

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40055599)

nowhere to put a screen to reflect the HUD image.

Google glasses???

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#40055887)

foot pedals

That, and possibly eye tracking while surgeon is looking at the screen.

But that makes too much sense. Better use NEW MICROSOFT TECHNOLOGY!!!

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40058259)

Replacing specialized & expensive technology with off the shelf commodity stuff. Wow.. what a radical idea. Kinect's skeleton tracking has been primed with input from thousands of people of different shapes and sizes. It is bloody hard to get this kind of stuff working with sufficient reliability and accuracy (for such a low-res/low-cost sensor) in a general consumer product.

And eye tracking (which only works with moderate accuracy at very short range).. for a surgeon in an operating room... lol

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (1)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 2 years ago | (#40060553)

The problem is not with quality of Kinect, it's with the choice of the input method that involves people in baggy clothes flailing arms around while performing surgery.

Re:hand gestures vs voice or foot control (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40055975)

Just imagined Jimi Hendrix doing own heart surgery, thanks for that.

kinect in operating room (1)

mapkinase (958129) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053549)

...yet the surgery instructions I received in the beginning of this month were partially handwritten. The amount of technological backwardness in health industry compared to everything else is shocking.

Re:kinect in operating room (2)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#40054325)

We're "technologically backward" because most of the technical innovations don't decrease the amount of time it takes to do our work - they increase it. Those that do save time are rapidly and universally adopted (the best example of this I can think of is radiology software - because it saved every physician from having to go down to the reading room to look at films).

Re:kinect in operating room (0)

mapkinase (958129) | more than 2 years ago | (#40055823)

Then which category would you refer incompetent staff I meet half of the time I visit a doctor? They can't answer questions they are supposed to answer.

Also the amount of bureaucracy is staggering. Why someone from the family now need to be present all the time during simple 10-minute knee surgery just because patient is having anesthesia?

All the moronic crap they invented in the last 10 years serves just one purpose - minimize potential litigation, not to make better service.

Health industry is just another industry where patient satisfaction, patient needs is secondary to bottom line - profit.

Screw you.

Re:kinect in operating room (3, Informative)

demonlapin (527802) | more than 2 years ago | (#40056523)

Why someone from the family now need to be present all the time during simple 10-minute knee surgery just because patient is having anesthesia?

Because you have to be discharged to the care of a responsible adult after having received general anesthesia, and because experience has shown that people who show up alone but "will have someone come to pick me up later" usually don't have anyone actually show up. Would you prefer that these people drive themselves home? Would you care to take on the liability for allowing them to do so? Thank your state and federal legislators for allowing the law to be used this way.

Screw you.

Whatever floats your boat.

Re:kinect in operating room (-1, Troll)

mapkinase (958129) | more than 2 years ago | (#40057039)

I had the same surgery 10 years ago. Called a friend on the phone after surgery he picked me up.

>Thank your state and federal legislators for allowing the law to be used this way.

Troll detected

In the past... (1)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053649)

In the past, the doctor left the table, because the images, whether digital or film, weren't located at the table. Other hospitals have used a foot controller, kind of like a cross between a guitar pedal and a trackball to accomplish this. The kinect is an interesting approach. Time will tell if putting down your surgical instruments to wave your hands around is an effective route to doing this or not.

bad idea (1)

slashmydots (2189826) | more than 2 years ago | (#40053739)

Considering my friend's kinect takes about 5 tries to perform remotely complex commands and we have to hide under a bunker of pillows we nicknamed the kinect bunker to get it to stop recognizing the wrong person, I'm not sure it's quite at surgical grade levels. Even for just imaging and not interaction, it's not very accurate. If it was a person, it'd be declared legally blind so I think perhaps a webcam or photographic camera would be more helpful.

Obligitory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40054205)

This gives a whole new meaning to "red ring of death"...

Could Microsoft be Logging and Retaining Data? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40054481)

I wouldn't want Kinect in my ER or doctor's office!

Written by Alphonse:

Microsoft Kinect Spy System

âoeSo you just got the Kinect/Xbox360 gaming system and youâ(TM)re having fun, hanging out in your underwear, plopped down in your favorite lounge chair, and playing games with your buddies. Yeah, itâ(TM)s great to have a microphone and camera in your game system so you can âoeKinectâ to your pals while you play, but did you read that Terms of Service Agreement that came with your Kinect thingy? No? Here, let me point out an important part of that service agreement.

If you accept the agreement, you âoeexpressly authorize and consent to us accessing or disclosing information about you, including the content of your communications, in order to: (a) comply with the law or respond to lawful requests or legal process; (b) protect the rights or property of Microsoft, our partners, or our customers, including the enforcement of our agreements or policies governing your use of the Service; or (c) act on a good faith belief that such access or disclosure is necessary to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, customers, or the public.â

Did you catch that? Here, let me print the important part in really big letters.
âoeIf you accept the agreement, you expressly authorize and consent to us accessing or disclosing information about you, including the content of your communications⦠on a good faith belief that such access or disclosure is necessary to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, customers, or the public.â

OK, is that clear enough for ya? When you use the Kinect system, you agree to allow Microsoft (and any branch of law enforcement or government they care to share information with) to use your Kinect system to spy on you. Maybe run that facial recognition software to check you out, listen to your conversations, and keep track of who you are communicating with.

I know this is probably old news to some, but I thought I would mention it because it pertains to almost all of these home game systems that are interactive. You have to remember, the camera and microphone contained in your game system has the ability to be hacked by anyone the game company gives that ability to, and that includes government snoops and law enforcement agents.

Hey, itâ(TM)s MICROSOFT. What did you expect?

And the same concerns apply to all interactive game systems. Just something to think about if youâ(TM)re having a âoeNaked Wii partyâ or doing something illegal while youâ(TM)re gaming with your buddies. Or maybe you say something suspicious and it triggers the DHS software to start tracking your every word. Hey, this is not paranoia. Itâ(TM)s spelled out for you, right there in that Service Agreement. Read it! Hereâ(TM)s one more part of the agreement you should be aware of.

âoeYou should not expect any level of privacy concerning your use of the live communication features (for example, voice chat, video and communications in live-hosted gameplay sessions) offered through the Service.â

Did you catch it that time? YOU SHOULD NOT EXPECT ANY LEVEL OF PRIVACY concerning your voice chat and video features on your Kinect box.â

Pop science (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40054535)

Computer vision existed long before Kinect. Why are we hearing about this now? Because it is trendy. In fact, medical image processing has driven much CV research.

Dance Dance Revolution (1)

bryan1945 (301828) | more than 2 years ago | (#40060673)

Now that would be an awesome way to do surgery. Just make sure your backup dancers are up to snuff.

Old news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40065985)

We're already using it here in Brazil. Check the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyt8Ylrh7UM

This was at TechEd 2011 (1)

HalcyonJedi (1049992) | about 2 years ago | (#40101089)

This is recent news? They actually demoed this at Microsoft TechEd in Atlanta last May...
Check for New Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...