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Kim Dotcom Demands Access To Seized Property To Defend Himself

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the let-my-hard-drive-go dept.

Piracy 236

redletterdave writes "On Wednesday, Kim 'Dotcom' Schmitz and his legal team visited the High Court in Auckland, New Zealand, to demand access to the data stored on his computers and hard drives that were confiscated during the police raid, and also requested a judicial review of the general legality of the search warrants police used to raid his mansion. Dotcom's lawyer, Paul Davison, argued that his client needs the data for a few reasons: To mount a 'proper defense' case, to fight possibly being extradited to the U.S., and also to show that 'excessive police action' was used during the raid. Dotcom could prove this in court because the entire raid was recorded by CCTV data, which is stored on Dotcom's confiscated computers. Even though the FBI demanded Dotcom turn over the passwords for Megaupload's encrypted data, he refuses to give up any passwords until he can regain access to his seized property."

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236 comments

How It Went Down, a Play in One Act (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40094931)

INT. A SUBURBAN HOME - EVENING

MDC and his Mother are arguing in the living room.

MDC: Mom, will you please give me the money to get my shit out of storage? I need those books and computers and shit.

Mother: No, I told you, I'm not giving you money to go down there, you'll just give it away to the first guy with a cardboard sign you see or else you'll blow it on strippers. I'm just not going to throw my money away like that.

MDC: But mom, you give me cash all the time to go into town and hangout at the web cafe--

Mother: YES! To get you out of my god damn hair so I can have a little peace and quiet. I can't stand it how you're always telling me how I should do things in my OWN house. I have managed just fine all these years then you come in here with no money, no job, no wife, with half the police in California keeping an eye out for you and you want to tell ME what to do. I give you money so you'll LEAVE ME ALONE FOR AWHILE.

MDC: Face facts mom, you really only want me out because I look uncannily like your own father and you just can't--

Mother: Look you, I've had enough of this. You don't look anything at all like your grandfather. Actually, I've never told you this but you should know. Your father in the Navy? He wasn't really your father. He was deployed and I got lonely, I had a short-term fling with one of those black musicians down at the club. I always thought he was a little strange but I wasn't dating him for his personality you understand. Unfortunately, I've regretted it ever since.

MDC: Listen mom, you're just in denial about your mental illness. I can see it.

Mother: WILL YOU CUT IT OUT! HAVE YOU HEARD A WORD I HAVE SAID?

MDC: Of course mother, I have heard your cry for help and I am here for you, if you'll just read this essay I wrote on--

Mother: I AM NOT READING ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR GOD DAMN ESSAYS, I AM SICK OF ESSAYS, IF YOU SAY 'THE SOFTWARE PROBLEM' ONE MORE TIME I SWEAR TO GOD I AM GOING TO SWALLOW THIS WHOLE BOTTLE OF PILLS!

MDC: But mother, The Software Problem is at the--

Mother: AUUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

MDC: Oh My God MOM! We must get to the Emergency Room immediately!

INT. HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM

MDC and his Mother are queued at the registration desk.

Male Nurse: Ma'am, can I help you?

Mother: YES MY SON IS AN ESCAPED LUNATIC, HE HAS BIPOLAR SCHIZOAFFECTIVE DISORDER HIS NAME IS MICHAEL CRAWFORD AND HE IS DRIVING ME INSANE!

Male Nurse: Did you say Crawford Ma'am?

Mother: YES!

Male Nurse: SECURITY, WE HAVE A CODE MDC, I REPEAT CODE MDC, RESPOND STAT!

Hospital security swarms, MDC is forcibly restrained while an orderly administers a jab

MDC: Now look here! I have every ri-UMPH! UNGH, WAIT NOT THE . . . oh lurk at the prurty unicarns gurble master debugger gleble warp life drool . . .

Dedicated, inspired and mostly written by tdillo

Re:How It Went Down, a Play in One Act (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095955)

Wow, that's pretty fucking retarded. Don't quit your day job.

How does it taste? (5, Insightful)

DigMarx (1487459) | about 2 years ago | (#40094985)

What's the German word for "the boner you get from too much Schadenfreude"? Speaking as an American expat living in NZ: fuck the US government and its thuggish international corporate rent-a-cop policies.

Re:How does it taste? (-1)

spire3661 (1038968) | about 2 years ago | (#40095029)

Because Kim Dotcom is an innocent angel, right? When you upset people with guns and money, they will come after you. Its not uniquely American in any way.

Re:How does it taste? (4, Insightful)

Eristone (146133) | about 2 years ago | (#40095123)

"Well, when you steal $600, you can just disappear. When you steal 600 million, they will find you, unless they think you're already dead." -- Hans Gruber

Re:How does it taste? (4, Informative)

TFAFalcon (1839122) | about 2 years ago | (#40095179)

When you steal 600 million you can give back 100 mill as a settlement and keep the rest.

Re:How does it taste? (5, Insightful)

rtb61 (674572) | about 2 years ago | (#40095341)

The claim is he 'sold' advertising space based upon allowing others to copy and distribute copyrighted content, not theft involved, no armed smugglers, no gang of armed criminals and, no pirates on the high seas. A straight up civil matter that was totally abused by a twisted by a demented and distorted Barack Obama/RIAA/MPAA Department of in-Justice, flooded with lawyers fresh out of the RIAA/MPAA(who dont give a crap about justice just how much money they are going to make screwing it over for as long as they can get away with it). That sucked in another country to do it's dirty work for them, a big Hollywood show. Now comes the collapsing court case and the massive civil suit not against megaupload but against the New Zealand government. New Zealand was the sheep and the US was wearing the gumboots. It is pretty obvious the current US administration does not give a crap about justice, the law courts are just something to be abused for their financial advantage. They just write up any old crap and say the most obscene abuses of justice are now legal. Barack Obama has betrayed every principle of progressive justice.

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096009)

Barack Obama

You really think he had anything to do with it? You think that things would have been different no matter who else but him was in office?

u mad, bro

No, read the indictment (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096663)

Seriously go read the indictment, it has money laundering, it has fraudulent take down procedures, it have fictitious users. Copyright infringement was just an underlying thing, they have him banged to rights which is why he's trying for the "excessive force" side defense.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78786408/Mega-Indictment

Re:No, read the indictment (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096741)

That indictment is a joke, and so are their reasons. "Mega conspiracy"? Heh.

The reason was copyright infringement. I don't care if he made money off of it, nor do I care if he didn't listen to the awful DMCA. We shouldn't be wasting taxpayer dollars extraditing people for such petty things.

Re:How does it taste? (1)

lister king of smeg (2481612) | about 2 years ago | (#40095541)

correction he stole nothing he facilitated the infringment of american copyrighted material from his company in hongkong and we put the presure on his home contry of new zeland so they arrested him.

Re:How does it taste? (4, Funny)

LordLucless (582312) | about 2 years ago | (#40095137)

And therefore, we shouldn't complain about it when people with guns and money come after people who upset them? After all, if you upset them, you deserve it. They have more guns and money than you do, therefore they are right, and you are wrong.

Re:How does it taste? (1, Flamebait)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about 2 years ago | (#40095251)

Yes, that's how things work. If you have an issue with that, take it up with the guy who created the universe..

Re:How does it taste? (2, Insightful)

LordLucless (582312) | about 2 years ago | (#40095641)

Either you really do have the morality of a particularly sociopathic cockroach, or you're shilling for the mafia.

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096415)

Or he is being ironic by dint of reductio ad absurdum. Wasted on the Asperger's crowd, of course.

Re:How does it taste? (4, Insightful)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | about 2 years ago | (#40095197)

Because Kim Dotcom is an innocent angel, right? When you upset people with guns and money, they will come after you. Its not uniquely American in any way.

America is supposed to be unique in being a country where that is not how things work.

Re:How does it taste? (1)

LVSlushdat (854194) | about 2 years ago | (#40096383)

America is supposed to be unique in being a country where that is not how things work.

America is broken... May God Bless whats left of it...

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096869)

Do you really want God to Bless what's left of it? Much like zombie Jesus coming back for our brains, America coming back for our rights sounds like a really bad idea to me about now. Dump it in a hole and place a stone over it's head so it can't dig it's way back out. That's the only way to deal with a zombie!

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096871)

Stuff the American exceptionalism, you didn't invent justice, you aren't even all that good at implementing it. Granted, for a while it was pretty swell if you were a male, white landowner (mostly because they were similar in terms of wealth). But aside from that it's always justice for the ones with lawyers, meaning for lawyers and rich people.

Re:How does it taste? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095219)

Because Kim Dotcom is an innocent angel, right? When you upset people with guns and money, they will come after you. Its not uniquely American in any way.

Isn't the decision whether someone's innocent or not up to the courts to decide?

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095459)

No. Welcome to the real world.

Re:How does it taste? (5, Insightful)

cpu6502 (1960974) | about 2 years ago | (#40095249)

>>>Because Kim Dotcom is an innocent angel, right?

As a matter of fact YES he is innocent in the eyes of the law. It is now the job of the government to demonstrate why he is not inocent (which the judge overseeing the case says is unlikely, because they did not have authority to seize the items).

Re:How does it taste? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095481)

News at 11 - Libertarian thief defend other thief.

Re:How does it taste? (3, Insightful)

blackfireuponus (2026394) | about 2 years ago | (#40096767)

News at 12 - Philistine idiot defends IP, thinks his "ideas" will soon make him perpetual money for finite work.

Re:How does it taste? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 2 years ago | (#40095515)

Kim Dotcom has been found guilty of insider trading and embezzlement in the past.

So no, he is not an innocent angel.

Re:How does it taste? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095837)

That has nothing to do with this. As in, it doesn't prove he's guilty.

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Dan541 (1032000) | about 2 years ago | (#40095405)

Because Kim Dotcom is an innocent angel, right?

Yes, what crime has he ever been convicted of?

Re:How does it taste? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095455)

Wikipedia:
"In January 2002, Dotcom was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, deported to Germany, and subsequently sentenced to a probationary sentence of one year and eight months, and a €100,000 fine, the largest insider-trading case in Germany at the time.[30] Dotcom also pleaded guilty to embezzlement in November 2003 and received a two-year probation sentence"

Re:How does it taste? (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 2 years ago | (#40095533)

So, he's basically Martha Stewart...

Re:How does it taste? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095585)

Nope. Before:
"In 1998, Dotcom was convicted of computer fraud and handling stolen goods, and sentenced to two years of prison on probation.[20] According to a report by News & Record, he had traded stolen calling card numbers he bought from hackers in the United States.[21] "
He still likes easy money...

Re:How does it taste? (4, Insightful)

Ihmhi (1206036) | about 2 years ago | (#40096255)

Sure, okay. He's making easy money in a legal grey area. Just like loads of bankers and businessmen have done in the United States and all over the world.

His only "crime" is not "contributing" to the war chests of politicians.

Re:How does it taste? (5, Insightful)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 2 years ago | (#40095569)

They take the rights of the unscrupulous first. Then they change their definition of unscrupulous slightly to include more of the population. Once rights only belong to a limited set of people, that limited set tends to shrink until those rights apply to no one but the ruling class. The beginning of this century is being marked by the same gradual slide into totalitarianism that the last century was. Do you really think the federal government cares about pirated movies? This is about power, and control.

Re:How does it taste? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096021)

You missing something here?

He's not American, he doesn't live in America, American laws don't directly apply to him, He's about to be extradited for a case based half on speculation and half on accusation and assumption that a data provider is somehow responsible for the content of the users (which, either in the US OR NZ is NOT THE CASE), he's had his doors kicked in, had it all recorded on video, and then effectively been denied access to the evidence that will be used against him in a criminal court for an alleged civil crime.

Enjoy your freedom :(

Re:How does it taste? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095751)

thuggish? You're too nice, I compare them to the SS/the Gestapo.

Re:How does it taste? (5, Funny)

Bacon Bits (926911) | about 2 years ago | (#40096035)

What's the German word for "the boner you get from too much Schadenfreude"?

"Schadenfrisky".

Re:How does it taste? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096633)

What's the German word for "the boner you get from too much Schadenfreude"?

Duh: "zebonerjugetvontoomuchSchadenfreude"

realtime off-site backups... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095011)

That a cloud service company executive does not have this is a lesson to us all.

Re:realtime off-site backups... (1)

Trilkin (2042026) | about 2 years ago | (#40095217)

He may have, but the LEA may well have raided his backup locations too.

Re:realtime off-site backups... (1)

Dan541 (1032000) | about 2 years ago | (#40095419)

I suspect he would likely have used MegaUpload servers to hold his personal off-site backups. Why pay someone else when you have the resources?

Another key disclosure case (3, Interesting)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | about 2 years ago | (#40095017)

We need to settle this issue, so that people at least know where they stand when it comes to key disclosure in the United States.

Re:Another key disclosure case (3, Interesting)

commodore6502 (1981532) | about 2 years ago | (#40095281)

It's pretty damn obvious.
Nature gave me this body which includes my mouth. I may use that body in any fashion I choose. That includes, among other things, the right to speak. AND the right to not speak (hence Arizona v. Miranda rights). No government may overrule the bodily rights that Nature has given me.

Re:Another key disclosure case (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095463)

True. But they can kill you if you don't.

Re:Another key disclosure case (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095521)

Not only does your body have a mouth, it has a penis and an asshole. I suggest you exercise your right to go fuck yourself.

just missing an EMP (1)

Eponymous Hero (2090636) | about 2 years ago | (#40095019)

reminds me of that scene in Cryptonomicon when Randy is trying to selectively delete evidence that can incriminate Epiphyte.

Re:just missing an EMP (-1, Troll)

X0563511 (793323) | about 2 years ago | (#40096093)

Thanks for sharing.

Ladies and gentlemen, this here is what we call Internet Gilles de la Tourette syndrome.

Hypocritical much? (5, Insightful)

Mysteryprize (2466438) | about 2 years ago | (#40095023)

The US government has illegally copied his data, in the hope of extraditing him of charges of illegally copying other peoples data.

Re:Hypocritical much? (5, Funny)

kiwirob (588600) | about 2 years ago | (#40095133)

Tell me it's not so!!! Can we now please indite the FBI on charges of copyright infringement please. A story in the NZ papers said that have taken copies of storage devices that contain home movies and other personal items. Will the FBI now have to pay $150,000 for each file they have illegally made copies of? It would seem that the FBI have been working with the NZ Police on getting copies of this private data, would't that mean the FBI are now a party to "conspiracy to commit copyright infringement"!

As a New Zealander I'd like to send a message to the USA Government, "please get the fuck off my front lawn!".

Re:Hypocritical much? (5, Informative)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 2 years ago | (#40095465)

Usually people making copies for criminal investigations have immunity from that sort of copyright claim.

In US law it's worded like this:

Law Enforcement, Intelligence, and Other Government Activities. â" This section does not prohibit any lawfully authorized investigative, protective, information security, or intelligence activity of an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision of a State, or a person acting pursuant to a contract with the United States, a State, or a political subdivision of a State. For purposes of this subsection, the term âoeinformation securityâ means activities carried out in order to identify and address the vulnerabilities of a government computer, computer system, or computer network.

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

kiwirob (588600) | about 2 years ago | (#40096199)

Yes but wouldn't the immunity apply when the the copies are being made legally, "This section does not prohibit any lawfully authorized investigative.."

If a NZ judge has said that the FBI have no right to access that information at this time, then the NZ Police and the FBI are not conducting the investigation an a manner in which it is lawfully authorized.

Crown Lawyer Mark Ruffin acting of behalf of the FBI in NZ has until Monday to report to the judge why the FBI and NZ Police have appeared to act unlawfully in allowing copies to be made and why the NZ Police have allowed the FBI to take data that was to be held in "safe custody" by the NZ Police out side the country.

The best answer Ruffin was able to give the New Zealand High Court was that a NZ/USA mutual assistance arrangement obligated the NZ Police to give the FBI the information and "The agreement states that each country gives up some of its sovereignty for the mutual benefit of all." For Christs sake if it's ok for the NZ Police to ignore laws in New Zealand because the FBI told them to what's next? How about the NZ Police just water board Mr Dotcom until he gives up the passwords to encrypted drives.

The next interesting question, can any of the information that have gained from this illegal copying of Mr Dotcom's data be used as evidence in the USA legal case? If the defense can show that the FBI have illegally obtained this information then doesn't it have to be thrown out of court?

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about 2 years ago | (#40096357)

Yea, the entire legal system of both America and New Zealand can be ignored because of a brilliant plan come up with a couple of slashdotters to use laws against the law makers ... because they never saw that coming!

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

Mysteryprize (2466438) | about 2 years ago | (#40095491)

Sadly I don't think that's ever going to happen. The current NZ government is way too cosy with the US government, far more so than any other NZ government that I can recall...

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

spazzmo (743767) | about 2 years ago | (#40096061)

...and are coming to resemble those corrupt fascist scumbags more every day. E.g: The treasonous selling out of our population to overseas corporations via the 3-strikes law. The cutting of taxes for the extremely wealthy, which apparently means we now have to cut social services, as we can no longer afford them after giving away those billions of tax dollars. Corrupt traitors, and that's both main parties. Shooting's too good for them.

Re:Hypocritical much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096725)

I'd check your data on the tax cuts. The broadly fiscally-neutral ones, leading to no cuts in social services. Those ones?

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

godglike (643670) | about 2 years ago | (#40095857)

$150000 x 25 Petabytes of data would bankrupt the US.

But since all that money would pay for NZ Government for the next 1000yrs, LETS DO IT!

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096547)

You cannot bankrupt the US, regardless of the charge; if it is too much, we will simply not pay it. There will be no real recourse, because you know what we do pay? The defense budget.

Re:Hypocritical much? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095169)

In this case, they physically STOLE his data because his company made it easy for other people to INFRINGE on copyrights. This might be the first time that anybody has ever been able to correctly use the words "steal" and "theft" in talking about a copyright case.

Re:Hypocritical much? (2)

wbr1 (2538558) | about 2 years ago | (#40095237)

Yeah, and the government murders people too, to say that murder is wrong.
Looking for sanity in all the wrong places my friend.

Re:Hypocritical much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095259)

Yeah, and the government murders people too, to say that murder is wrong.

Actually, no. The government kills someone who has murdered to show that murder is wrong. It's not just some random victim on the street or killing someone over the 3.45 USD in their pocket. Big difference.

If you can't understand this difference than you need to start looking for sanity in yourself before you point the finger at someone else.

Re:Hypocritical much? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095333)

Yeah, and the government murders people too, to say that murder is wrong.

Actually, no. The government MURDERS someone who has murdered to show that murder is wrong. It's not just some random victim on the street or killing someone over the 3.45 USD in their pocket. Big difference.

  If you can't understand this difference than you need to start looking for sanity in yourself before you point the finger at someone else.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Hypocritical much? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096119)

You go, man! Substitute one word for another of similar meaning! You sure showed him!

Re:Hypocritical much? (4, Insightful)

C_amiga_fan (1960858) | about 2 years ago | (#40095383)

Sadly the government also kills innocent people, not just criminals. Typically it happens after knocking-open the door, and shooting the pet dog, or a little boy, or a daughter, or an Iraq veteran, or a grandmother (all documented cases published in the news). Then they call this an "accident" instead of what it really is: Murder.

Re:Hypocritical much? (3, Interesting)

hot soldering iron (800102) | about 2 years ago | (#40096263)

Sadly, you are very correct.
Back in Dallas, in the 90's, I personally knew people that had their door kicked in by the "Drug Task Force", teargas thrown, and the husband was thrown out of his wheelchair, which was then roughly dismantled/broken in front of him while they "searched it for weapons". What were they guilty of? Living at the house when the police went to the WRONG ADDRESS. A similar incident resulted in a newborn baby's lungs being permanently scarred by tear gas.

The police started curbing their actions when they started getting shot going into houses that were supposed to be easy pickings. The drug dealers had started buying "look-alike" uniforms via mail-order, and pulling raids on rival dealers using the same tactics of the police. When someone steals a dealers drugs and money, the dealer is still on the hook to his supplier. When they heard, "Dallas PD! Open up!" all they could think of was "Those bastards are back! Eat hot lead!"

The lesson here? Poor, honest, people can't afford lawyers to sue city hall to behave correctly, but drug dealers willing to kill a cop will make them watch themselves very carefully.

NZ Police has handed them over already (5, Insightful)

evanh (627108) | about 2 years ago | (#40095119)

It was on the local news last night. The FBI are confirmed to now have a copy of the personal HDDs.

It's causing a bit of a stink as it looks like the Police have done it illegally given they had previously agreed to return them first.

Re:NZ Police has handed them over already (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095975)

It's causing a bit of a stink as it looks like the Police have done it illegally given they had previously agreed to return them first.

All the NZ police need to do to get out of hot water and keep from providing evidence of the crime they allegedly committed, is say they don't know how the FBI got the data.

The FBI must have broken into their data store.

Which means we have no reason to suspect any of the evidence is authentic.

Which means there is no evidence, either for Dotcom's defense or to prosecute him.

If they want Dotcom, some NZ cop needs to take the fall and go to jail, admitting the evidence wasn't compromised by the FBI but rather, the NZ police department simply doesn't obey laws.

And yet somehow they need to do this and still have enough credibility to take down Dotcom. That sounds like a tall order. It's starting to look to me like they've really let him go. So there's not even going to be any serious pretense that whatever they did and all the damage they caused, was somehow in the service to law enforcement.

This is a total clusterfuck.

Re:NZ Police has handed them over already (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095991)

I like the way the Crown lawyers claimed that they couldn't make copies of the data for the defence because that would alter said data.

Craven fools.

Re:NZ Police has handed them over already (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096583)

If they're encrypted, as they likely are because Kim may be cocky, but he's not stupid, then they have a nice set of expensive paperweights.

Of course the whole point of such a statement is to make it seem like the 'good guys' have the upper hand to people who don't know better.

Dotcom should be freed even if ... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095143)

... he's guilty as hell of violating US law. Writing as a non-American living outside US territory who has never set foot inside US territory, I hope that Kim Dotcom succeeds in stopping the US extradition request. Extradition should be reserved for those who committed crimes in the country that is requesting extradition or for war criminals. A case might be made for "hackers" (security breakers) that plant malware that destroys another country's computer systems, but not for people whose crime involves not destruction but the "creation" of more data.

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 2 years ago | (#40095415)

So you are saying if Mr X living outside the US hires someone to commit a crime in the US, he shouldn't be extraditable to the US?

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095805)

Yeah, why not?

George Bush hired people to commit crimes in Iraq and the USA still haven't extradited him to face justice from his victims. Or is extradition something that should only happen to non-US citizens?

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096143)

Sorry, you lose. Thanks for playing. You forgot about something fairly important: a standing declaration of war

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (4, Insightful)

ChrisMaple (607946) | about 2 years ago | (#40096385)

There was no declaration of war. There should have been. Generally speaking, leaders of countries are not subject to legal action in other countries, even if they visit that country. Otherwise, Castro would be in a US jail today, following his arrest decades ago when he came to NYC.

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (2)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about 2 years ago | (#40095891)

He should not be extraditable if the crimes are petty or if what Mr X did is legal in his country.

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096259)

I believe what he's saying is that Mr X shouldn't be held legally responsible for facilitating the illegal activities of a group of people in another country when he's not breaking the law of the country he's in.

Or is that too hard for you to make a strawman out of?

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096883)

The USA has it in their fundamental laws that they won't extradite ANYONE to foreign courts.
Why they expect anything from foreign countries?
Because they strongarm them. There is zero morality in this.

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095475)

Well, no. [1] Physical presence of the perpetrator should not be required -- if the crime causes damage in that country, then that's real presence. [2] Why war criminals? Don't forget they're _accused_ war criminals for starters, and wtf not have the country hosting them deal with them? If they're willing to extradite, then they're friendly to the accused, so can get on with themselves. [3] Creation of data, or anything else, can wipe out jobs -- real damage. Loss of food, health care, infrastructure, homes. Have you never seen real destitution? You can't just say 'creation is always good'. It's nowhere near that simple.

Not saying this whole business isn't full of dubious crap, or that copyright doesn't need a serious overhaul, just that you've got to give this more thought.

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (3, Insightful)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about 2 years ago | (#40095993)

[1] Physical presence of the perpetrator should not be required -- if the crime causes damage in that country, then that's real presence.

Copied files! Oh, the horror! That's almost as bad as a kid selling lemonade without a permit!

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096387)

Those two things are pretty much in no way alike.

Dotcom running his business without a permit would be like selling lemonade without a permit.

What he was doing was running a 'lemonade stand' that just happened to not give a fuck if you were trading coke, heroin and any pill you could find in plain site and in fact built its entire existence on the fact that it was used for those purposes.

Are you trying to look stupid, or just REALLY good at it?

Re:Dotcom should be freed even if ... (4, Insightful)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about 2 years ago | (#40096465)

No, I just honestly don't see this as anything more than a petty matter. Copyright infringement. So what? People are treating it as if it's some sort of national security emergency that we must extradite people in other countries for. Wow, files were copied! That's just terrible.

What a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Obstruction of justice and contempt of court (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095159)

Maybe he can also file complaints for obstruction of justice and contempt of court on the part of the FBI while he's at it, as well as one count of theft for every piece of hardware that has been taken outside New Zealand's borders.

Keep it up (1)

kefkahax (915895) | about 2 years ago | (#40095175)

Don't give up that stance either, Kim.

Re:Keep it up (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40095659)

I agree. As he said, "don't fuck with the Mega". I found this story great, especially the sawed off shotguns. Had Mega heard of tripwire he could have bailed in a helicopter or something during the raid. It took so many people to get this guy, I would have went out like that movie Scarface. What an ending!

Steve Jackson Games all over again (5, Interesting)

bzipitidoo (647217) | about 2 years ago | (#40095263)

One of the principles to come out of the Steve Jackson Games case [sjgames.com] is that the accused can't be deprived of their computer equipment and data. Law enforcement may only make copies of data.

Re:Steve Jackson Games all over again (3, Informative)

twistofsin (718250) | about 2 years ago | (#40095773)

The previous post is missing a disclaimer:

*If you can afford to lawyer up and get your shit back. Otherwise they'll gladly keep it until you drag them to court.

Re:Steve Jackson Games all over again (4, Insightful)

djlowe (41723) | about 2 years ago | (#40096111)

The previous post is missing a disclaimer:

*If you can afford to lawyer up and get your shit back. Otherwise they'll gladly keep it until you drag them to court."

The previous post is missing a disclaimer:

Today, in the United Fascist States of America (UFSA for short, spread it around!), you're more likely to be branded a cyberterrorist, and then you'll be in a world of shit: You won't get any due process, because you are, after all, a terrorist. Hell, if you're overseas, President Obama might just authorize your assassination, because obviously the US Constitution doesn't apply in foreign lands, right?

Regards,

dj

P.S. I had an account on the Illuminati BBS when it was seized (had to call long distance from NY to get to it), and I was shocked, appalled and angered when I learned of the raid.

Although it worked out in the end, and Steve Jackson Games won, doing so was an enormous hardship for the company at the time. It was, in addition to the fact that they make great games, another reason that I bought as many of their games as I could at the time, and continue to do so to this day.

Re:Steve Jackson Games all over again (2)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | about 2 years ago | (#40096113)

Steve Jackson got his equipment back...years later. The hardware was obsolete by then. I remember reading on a BBS that the employee who unpacked the computers marveled at a pristine, preserved specimen of computer technology from several years ago.

Re:Steve Jackson Games all over again (1)

tobiah (308208) | about 2 years ago | (#40096325)

That was in the U.S., and didn't involve uncracked encrypted systems.

Re:Steve Jackson Games all over again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096621)

>> One of the principles to come out of the Steve Jackson Games case [sjgames.com] is that the accused can't be deprived of their computer equipment and data. Law enforcement may only make copies of data.
>>

Since this is a common law country, this is proof of violation of the law. Precedence is everything in thes country.

When the chief justice of the supreme court was being vetted there was repetitive talk of "starry decisis." Validity of precedence.

The "tradition" that keeps innocent folk from even having the proof of their innocence from being admitted as evidence in court, must less reviewed.

JJ

Great argument for... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40096463)

This seems to be a great argument for having a backup copy of all your data being made live, in real-time, offsite. If you have the resources, an encrypted spread-spectrum jam resistant link to send the CCTV security monitoring of your home, or whatever, to somewhere secure that the goons won't know where it is... you'd be better off.

But that's the whole point. (1)

Voogru (2503382) | about 2 years ago | (#40096867)

They freeze all of your assets so you can't defend yourself against a government with unlimited funding. The arbitrary injustice system: The more laws, the less justice.
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