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Free Desktop Software Development Dead In Windows 8

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the look-but-hardly-touch dept.

Windows 462

benfrog writes "Microsoft has decided to restrict Visual Studio 11 Express, the free-to-use version of its integrated development environment, to producing only Metro-style applications. Those who would like to produce conventional desktop applications or command line -based applications are stuck with Visual Studio 2010 or buying the full version. Microsoft announced the Visual Studio 11 lineup last week."

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462 comments

Wait, what now? (4, Insightful)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117263)

Visual Studio is hardly the only development IDE on Windows. Yes, it is good, but you cannot really say that "free desktop software development dead in Windows 8" just because gasp, MS wants you to buy the new version. Hell, they even still offer Visual Studio 2010 for free!

So if you are crying about this, what about coming up with those open source IDE's?? I understand that they have never matched Visual Studio, but seriously. I even buy good web development IDE's to my OS X, like Coda 2 [panic.com] . Stop being a cheap-ass winer and pay for quality tools.

You know what this story actually tells? That even FOSS users don't like their IDE's. They want to use Visual Studio from Microsoft because frankly, it is much better than the open source alternatives.

Visual Studio 11 is an improvement in many ways over Visual Studio 2010. Its C++ compiler, for example, is a great deal more standards-compliant, especially with the new C++ 11 specification. It has powerful new optimization features, such as the ability to automatically use CPU features like SSE2 to accelerate mathematically intensive programs, and new language features to allow programs to be executed on the GPU. The new version of the C# language makes it easier to write programs that do their work on background threads and avoid making user interfaces unresponsive. The .NET Framework, updated to version 4.5, includes new capabilities for desktop applications, such as a ribbon control for Microsoft's WPF GUI framework.

Taken together, there are many new features in Visual Studio 11 that are relevant, interesting, and useful for desktop developers. Indeed, things like the new WPF capabilities are only useful for desktop developers.

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

Re:Wait, what now? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117299)

They're not better, they just have all the swanky advertising.

Haven't you see the hot girls giving away free Microsoft stuff at conventions...Stallman just can't compete with that, even if you're into it.

Which you're not. Don't even try to kid us. You aren't.

Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (4, Interesting)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117335)

When I read Forbes naming Ballmer one of the 5 worst CEO, I had some doubt

After reading TFA, the doubt is gone

Indeed, Ballmer is utterly clueless on how to run Microsoft !

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117497)

Give them time to react to developer response. Who knows, maybe they'll end up following the Windows Phone model and pay people to develop on the platform.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (5, Insightful)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117739)

The problem here is the TV problem. Visual Studio 11 is free to use, but not free to produce. You're not the customer, you're the product that Microsoft is buying. And Microsoft wants you to produce metro applications, that drive demand for their new products (and phones/tablets), not drag users back to their previous products that people have already bought.

It's as simple as that.

Don't like being used ? Pay for what you need. It'll be a whole other story, even with the very same Microsoft products.

Btw: as a developer I thought I'd add that Visual Studio is a fast, usable and well-integrated IDE, it's also a very, very industrial one. It is much less elegant than most of the alternatives.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117775)

What a bunch of greedy kykes trying to jew us out of our money. Why do you fuckin morons keep using windows?

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (5, Insightful)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117671)

Not a fan of his personality but since Gates has left: XBox, .Net, Windows server ~3X gain in market share, dido database solutions. Dominant in most large corporations for email as well. They've done some good things, they've done some bad things like all companies. In pure business sense they are doing pretty good: http://ycharts.com/companies/MSFT/earning_yield#series=type:company,id:MSFT,calc:earning_yield&zoom=&startDate=6/30/2002&endDate=5/25/2012&format=real&recessions=false [ycharts.com] earnings yield went from ~1.75% to ~10% since 2002 (couldn't get a chart out to 2000 when Gates left) while they traded ~flat since the dot com boom. So MS today has the earnings to back up the valuation versus MS of Gates day. They might have boggled the phone, screwed the pouch with Vista etc but they earn money, at least now. Consumer software isn't the only source of revenue.

I think CEOs that need to be crapped on are the ones that gave them selves bonuses when they were getting government bailouts and losing money. Or the second they got out of government ownership decide to reward themselves with 10's of millions as deferred payment for all those hard years of ~1M/yr salaries.

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117803)

I think CEOs that need to be crapped on are the ones that gave them selves bonuses when they were getting government bailouts and losing money. Or the second they got out of government ownership decide to reward themselves with 10's of millions as deferred payment for all those hard years of ~1M/yr salaries.

In other words you're spiteful and jealous of other people who are more financially successful than you are.

They make more money than you think they should deserve and that ... somehow ... harms you. That's your logic, right?

Re:Why Forbes name Ballmer one of the worst CEO? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117877)

Nope. Thanks for ignoring the corporate looting of the vulture capitalists you apparently adore.

They don't even have the decency of a robber baron, they STEAL from them. And get us to never notice that they have no clothes.

Some emperors.

Re:Wait, what now? (2)

Dogun (7502) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117317)

It's worth noting that Visual Studio wasn't always free.

More to the point, though, I doubt they're going to stop shipping the WDK, and that DOES include a C compiler. I hope you like nmake, though!

Re:Wait, what now? (5, Informative)

King InuYasha (1159129) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117445)

Windows 8 WDK won't include one. Neither will the Windows 8 SDK.

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

Dogun (7502) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117485)

Huh - sure enough they now leverage the compiler from outside the WDK.

I sure as shit wouldn't pay for Visual Studio. I guess it's time for some other compilers to step up!

Re:Wait, what now? (2, Insightful)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117539)

And is there any actual reason for why you would not pay for Visual Studio? Your "I guess it's time for some other compilers to step up!" even summarizes that you don't think that the other IDE's and compilers are not as good. You don't have any actual point apart from "I don't want to pay for the tools I use to get money".

Re:Wait, what now? (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117871)

And is there any actual reason for why you would not pay for Visual Studio?

You know that among modern OSes, Windows is unusual in that it doesn't come with a compiler as a standard feature.

You don't have any actual point apart from "I don't want to pay for the tools I use to get money".

If there's one thing Microsoft is smart about, it's that they try to please developers. People developing software that runs on Windows is good for Microsoft. It gives others a reason to want to use Windows. How many people are unable to fully switch to Linux (but would like to) because some software they must use is Windows-only?

This decision by Microsoft means that, up until now, Microsoft has considered such effects to be valuable enough to justify giving away Visual Studio. Now they are asking for money in addition to this effect. Complaining and trying to convince Microsoft to change their minds is standard haggling.

Besides which, not everyone who programs on Windows is selling the software they produce. Some of them are developing FOSS. They would naturally be more reluctant to pay than someone who is actually engaged in a commercial use and considers it a cost of doing business.

What part of this is so absurd to you?

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

causality (777677) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117881)

valuable enough to justify giving away Visual Studio.
This was intended to be "... giving away Visual Studio Express".

Re:Wait, what now? (3, Informative)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117929)

You know that among modern OSes, Windows is unusual in that it doesn't come with a compiler as a standard feature.

It's not quite so - it does come with compilers, just not with a C++ compiler. It does come with .NET (since Vista), and .NET runtime includes both C# and VB compilers, for the sake of runtime codegen (System.CodeDom).

Re:Wait, what now? (3, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117921)

And is there any actual reason for why you would not pay for Visual Studio?

Maybe the fact that the price starts with $500?

And it wasn't such a big deal, say, ten years ago, but now, when Xcode and Qt Creator and Eclipse are all free? Even if they aren't as good, that's still a hefty price to account for.

Re:Wait, what now? (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117907)

VS Express does, though. While it doesn't come with project templates with desktop apps, nor the header files for Win32 stuff, the compiler is the real deal. So you could, in theory, take VS Express compiler and combine it with headers and libs from WinSDK, to get a complete command-line tool chain.

Or you could just install Qt SDK, which includes MinGW, Qt Creator, and Qt itself. All working out of the box with zero hassle.

(I never thought the day would come when I'd have to recommend QC over VS on Windows...)

Re:Wait, what now? (4, Informative)

Sc4Freak (1479423) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117851)

The Windows SDK won't ship with MSVC, but Visual Studio Express 11 still does. Visual Studio Express 11 still includes the full compiler toolkits and you're free to use those however you want as you could with the Windows SDK. But the IDE itself will only support creation of Metro-style projects.

Re:Wait, what now? (0)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117353)

I have no idea why the parent is rated a troll. It's so not a troll. Mods out of control, me thinks.

Re:Wait, what now? (1, Insightful)

farrellj (563) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117437)

Too many windows fanboys/paid flacs have Slashdot accounts these days and mod anything that has legit criticism of MS products down...I've been watching this happen for the past little while here...and I would not be suprised if many of the IP address of those moding down post that are critical of MS come from Microsoft campuses or those employed by MS.

Re:Wait, what now? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117627)

Too many windows fanboys/paid flacs have Slashdot accounts these days and mod anything that has legit criticism of MS products down...I've been watching this happen for the past little while here...and I would not be suprised if many of the IP address of those moding down post that are critical of MS come from Microsoft campuses or those employed by MS.

Not quite; note the time of the article and the time of the first post. Yes, even beating out the first post trolls. Here, let me repeat that just to make sure it doesn't get lost in other sentences:

That post beat out the first post trolls.

We've had an infestation of not-at-all-subtle paid Microsoft shills with ready-made posts like that in here for a while, desperate to astroturf wherever they can. The mods are going to downvote them to oblivion, simple as that. It's just that there's no "-1 Spam" or "-1 Shill" mod, so "-1 Troll" is the closest we've got.

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117741)

I think you might be a bit paranoid.

Re:Wait, what now? (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117443)

You are missing the point. If you use Windows it is the decelopment environment. Unless you write enterprise Java servlets you use vs.net with MSDN.

Even if you switched to intels compiler and vi m you miss out on the docs from msdn and the project files from the internet to learn coding. Its the same with xcode from Apple.

Only linux doesnt tie things like this to the ecosystem. There is a reason Borland is gone

Re:Wait, what now? (3, Informative)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117575)

MSDN documentation is free to access to everyone. There are also tons of programming books to learn coding from. They are all better than just learning from documentation.

Borland isn't gone either - They're CodeGear now.

Re:Wait, what now? (2)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117729)

You can (at least as the moment not sure when VS 2011 Win 8 ships) get the .net compiler for free. You can still code in .Net and compile it. An MSDN subscription might be useful but most things you can find out for free on the web, heck the framework docs are all up on the web for free too (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/618ayhy6%28v=vs.100%29 for example). Compiling .Net from the command line is no worse than doing a C build with gcc from the command line. Search a bit to figure out what you need to type then throw it into a script so you can forget it. Not supplying an IDE (which is essentially just a glorified text editor/file browser that knows how to build a project) doesn't mean you can't develop for the platform.

Re:Wait, what now? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117841)

I havent compilied a line of c++ code on linux since 2003 but when I did I could not debug proccesses and threads with gdb or do any of the things that Visual Studio could do. In 2012 you need more. Xcode and java based tools offer this. An ide is a kitchen sink

Re:Wait, what now? (3, Informative)

JDG1980 (2438906) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117535)

Visual Studio is hardly the only development IDE on Windows.

What open-source C/C++ compilers for Windows support the full range of APIs? Last I checked, MinGW had no support for Direct2D and DirectWrite, which are hardly obscure or brand-new. And MinGW also does not support structured exception handling.

Re:Wait, what now? (-1, Flamebait)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117637)

What open-source C/C++ compilers for Windows support the full range of APIs? Last I checked, MinGW had no support for Direct2D and DirectWrite, which are hardly obscure or brand-new. And MinGW also does not support structured exception handling.

And that is Microsoft's fault how? It just re-establishes the fact that frankly, Microsoft's developer tools are one of the best ones out there and FOSS people are crying because they now have to pay for them (and I'm saying this as OS X user)

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117765)

It just re-establishes the fact that frankly, Microsoft's developer tools are one of the best ones out there

Moreso, it just establishse that windows is the primary target of microsoft developer tools (no surprise), whereas with open source tools it tends to be the afterthought after linux.

I'd personally take emacs over visual studio, but I'm an odd linux user/developer, I'm sure I'm not the only one though.

Re:Wait, what now? (1, Insightful)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117547)

Intellisense for HTML, javascript CSS etc that is huge too if you are into web dev (other than XBAP apps fortunately I've avoided the alphabet soup that is web development but mah, it's there if you need it.

Agreed VS is hands down better than anything I've seen for free (net beans, eclipse, KDevelop, Monodevelop, emacs, vi etc etc) just don't compare. A lot of them are good if that is what you have access to but given a choice between any of them and even the express addition of VS, VS wins hands down. .net 4.5 has extra controls but also works with vs 2010. I'm curious if the IDE will pick up icons for the controls and add them to the tools tab. I've had some third party charting tools that showed up properly in the tools if it was referenced in the project. Hopefully the same happens here with core features added to .Net that weren't originally around when VS2010 shipped. Or a service pack.

Sadly my work likely won't fork over ~2-5k for and IDE. They'll just ask: can't you use a free tool and I'll have to admit, yeah I can but somethings will be a bit harder to do. They'll just have me keep using whatever is free and piss away $100 a day in productivity since it is money already budgeted for rather than trying to squeeze some money from somewhere for proper tooling.

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117755)

Haha, your main criteria for an IDE is how good the visual gui design tools are?

You definitely are a windows developer!

Re:Wait, what now? (5, Insightful)

NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117581)

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

Because Microsoft controls the APIs and can release new versions of Visual Studio simultaneously with the new releases of Windows? Because anybody who wants to do an open IDE for Windows has to wade through the craptastic Microsoft documentation to be a year behind the curve, right about time for the next set of API changes?

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117853)

What open-source C/C++ compilers for Windows support the full range of APIs? Last I checked, MinGW had no support for Direct2D and DirectWrite, which are hardly obscure or brand-new. And MinGW also does not support structured exception handling.

MinGW already offers implib facility, such as def file generation and .a file generation from a DLL... People have used this to port DirectX SDKs in the past to MinGW
With some quick #defines, you can get SEH handling working on VC and MinGW: http://www.programmingunlimited.net/siteexec/content.cgi?page=mingw-seh
  - why shouldn't you?

Re:Wait, what now? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117601)

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

This seems to be true of nearly any GUI tool. Open-source server and command-line tools are often best-in-class, but GUI development takes too much time, and ends up being single-platform. It's an area I don't think open source can compete with full-time developers paid to grind it out.

Re:Wait, what now? (5, Interesting)

JoeMerchant (803320) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117629)

what about coming up with those open source IDE's?? I understand that they have never matched Visual Studio...

You know what this story actually tells? That even FOSS users don't like their IDE's. They want to use Visual Studio from Microsoft because frankly, it is much better than the open source alternatives.

...

If Microsoft is so bad then why the hell there isn't better open source versions of these things??

I have recently migrated off of Visual Studio, onto Qt Creator [qt-project.org] because Creator has matured to be clearly better than Studio.

Everyone has their own needs and preferences, I have copies of Studio, Eclipse and Creator on all of my machines at work and home - Eclipse is a necessary evil for some targets, but for the desktop, I was using Studio because it was the better environment - until the last six months or so.

Re:Wait, what now? (2)

Zamphatta (1760346) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117639)

The summary does make it sound like this is solely about Visual Studio being crippled, but if you read the article below the "It Gets Worse" subheading... you'll find that Microsoft is also doin' a lot more connected to this, that makes the situation bad beyond just Visual Studio.

Re:Wait, what now? (1)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117693)

I did read the article and know this stuff. The only "doing a lot more" part is making Microsoft's compiler only available to Visual Studio customers. And frankly, I cannot see what's so bad about that. If you really want to use Microsoft's compiler, then buy it. If not, use GCC, Intel's compiler, Borland's compiler etc.

Re:Wait, what now? (2)

stanlyb (1839382) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117761)

So, we are back to Borland C++? Nice, i was waiting for this moment for sooo long...

Re:Wait, what now? (1, Troll)

theweatherelectric (2007596) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117815)

Visual Studio is hardly the only development IDE on Windows. Yes, it is good, but you cannot really say that "free desktop software development dead in Windows 8" just because gasp, MS wants you to buy the new version.

I agree. Ars Technica used an inflammatory title to drive traffic to their site. I used to like Ars but it has adopted a tabloid journalism flavour lately so I don't read it anymore. For me, Ars is a damaged brand.

Re:Wait, what now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117911)

The open source versions are already better. That mickeysoft keeps screwing over developers is between the boobs who swallow what they spew, and mickeysoft. Remember .nyet? When they decide to kill something, they kill it. Developers, developers, developers developers! (uttered under his breath just before monkey boy started yelping this) "Who do we screw over time and again and at every money-making opportunity?" FOSS works really well. Lots of front ends, lots of support, lots of examples. Hundreds of apps., kits, and people aren't going to screw developers over, time and again.

Anti-MS shilling (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117307)

Free desktop software development is dead in Win 8? Would anyone care to explain how MS will somehow eradicate all other development environments?

Oh... oh wait. I forgot. This is Slashdot. The site that complains about MS shills despite the fact the Windows icon they use is meant to mock Windows and they'll happily post false, sensationalist headlines as long as it makes MS look bad.

Slashdot itself is a shill site.

Dumbest Decision Ever (2)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117319)

This is really stupid. I mean, I understand the (stupid) reasoning behind it, given the direction they want to go... but it's just shooting themselves in the foot.

At least VS2010 Express will still be available, but still... this is going to burn a LOT of good-will (such as it is) with Windows developers.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (2)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117355)

Then use one of the THOUSAND other IDE's available? You know, Borland (now CodeGear), AMD's, CERN's, Intel C++ compiler, IBM.. Hell, use GCC! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compilers#C.2B.2B_compilers [wikipedia.org]

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

game kid (805301) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117405)

Of course there are other IDEs, for which I and others will be grateful. The point is that Microsoft went from mildly sane to Full Retard in the span of one OS release. VS 2010 Express (especially when combined with a Platform SDK) was quite useful for making what they now call "classic apps". Now we have to pay in, or sanction M(isadv)e(n)tro.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (3, Informative)

CAKAS (2646219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117495)

Visual Studio has been paid product for most its lifetime. The few recent versions had the free "express" edition mostly suited towards students and new programmers. No one that actually does serious development work uses it - it's just there to try things out, just like demo versions of games. Yet, they still offer free version to make Metro apps - again useful for new programmers. But if you do serious work, you will get the full version, just like you always have.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117699)

This is pretty much it. Although students will want the regular desktop version more than the metro one, they have a portal for academic licencing now (where it's still free).

The chunk of the market that uses free visual studio for anything important that can't get it for free legally is probably pretty small, and it might just be that it's not worth the effort when VS 2010 will do the job.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

slomike1 (1125421) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117363)

"Windows Developers" will own the full version of VS. For new learners, VS2010 will be fine. I don't really see what the big problem is here.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (5, Informative)

deniable (76198) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117407)

This isn't a dumb decision at all. It's the consequence of a dumb decision. VS Express was put out to get people to switch to .NET development. Now that they're trying to shift from .NET to WinRT or whatever it's called this week, the tools aren't needed any more but the WinRT versions are. Look further down the stack and this change makes sense in a Microsoft way.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117483)

stupid yes. but microsoft is betting the farm on metro.. they don't want desktop apps anymore. why? two reasons. they have to play catch-up with mobile, and because of the fucking microsoft app store... they want a piece of every 3rd party software sale, just like apple gets with iOS (and is also pushing for in OSX).

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117669)

Microsoft is like a drug dealer. The first hit is free, but you'll be paying for it for the rest of your life.

Visual Studio is a hell of a drug.

Re:Dumbest Decision Ever (1)

ILongForDarkness (1134931) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117773)

I agree. My guess on this: they really really want the windows store to be successful. Apple gets it easy because so few people actually bother to make desktop apps for Mac (yeah I know Office, Adobe, Matlab etc exist for mac but very very small compared to MS land, or even Linux). Since their really isn't the mentality in the apple community of buying packaged software for the desktop for every little think you want like companies do with windows anyone dreaming of getting rich on the platform automatically jumped all over their store. MS is the complete opposite: companies are used to directly marketing to customers and are very suspicious of MS trying to get control over everything sold on the platform (rightly so).

The express versions I think were always intended for people learning development/hobbyist. "Real work" was supposed to be done by a paid version. It makes since that MS wouldn't want to encourage people to spend their time learning how to develop apps the "old" way when who knows win 9 might not have a desktop at all.

Pfeh... (4, Insightful)

Svartalf (2997) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117331)

It's worth noting that there's enough toolchains that are perfectly capable of producing desktop applications in that are Free (in both senses) that're capable of producing quality results.

Quite simply, if they're willing to cut their own throats in this space this way...let 'em.

Oh come on (4, Insightful)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117341)

No matter how you read this, the headline is completely misleading. There are other compilers/IDEs for Windows that cost $0. And the term "free" can mean two things on Slashdot; this headline makes it sound like Microsoft is trying to kill FOSS.

Worry not: QT Creator IDE (0)

cachimaster (127194) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117343)

Free, multi-plataform IDE for C/C++ projects: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools

You are forced to release your software as GPL if you use the QT sdk tough. But I think that's a limitation of QT, not qtcreator itself. It uses gcc/gdb as a backend.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (5, Informative)

PurpleAlien (797797) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117423)

There is no reason you have to release your code under the GPL if you use the Qt libraries. Qt is licensed under the LGPL.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (5, Informative)

hargrand (1301911) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117519)

The Qt SDK has an option to be used with LGPL v 2.1 [nokia.com] which will allow developers to release proprietary executables without being required to release their source code. Source release is only required if the developers make changes to the Qt SDK itself, which usually shouldn't be an issue. There's also a commercial license [digia.com] available if even this is too onerous.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (5, Informative)

hydrofix (1253498) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117531)

You are forced to release your software as GPL if you use the QT sdk tough.

No you aren't [nokia.com] . Get your facts straight.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117777)

Free, multi-plataform IDE for C/C++ projects: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools

You are forced to release your software as GPL if you use the QT sdk tough. But I think that's a limitation of QT, not qtcreator itself. It uses gcc/gdb as a backend.

This is wrong. It is LGPL.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (1)

cachimaster (127194) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117781)

Free, multi-plataform IDE for C/C++ projects: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools

You are forced to release your software as GPL if you use the QT sdk tough. But I think that's a limitation of QT, not qtcreator itself. It uses gcc/gdb as a backend.

Alright I was completely wrong about the GPL, as QT is now LGPL. Don't know where I took that piece of mis-information, I believe it was like that years ago, but no more. Well, that makes QT Creator even a better option.

Re:Worry not: QT Creator IDE (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117903)

Even if Qt was GPL that doesn't mean that the code you wrote with the IDE needed to have its source released.

If you don't like VS10, (3, Insightful)

NemoinSpace (1118137) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117359)

MS quipped. "you're free not to use it".

That'll Drive 'em Away... (0)

blcamp (211756) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117365)

Not terribly helpful for MS to do this, to keep attracting new devs coming out of school. Are they trying to kill .NET as a web platform?

New grads (or upperclassmen) now will just go with LAMP (or a variation) for web, foregoing .NET altogether. And what timing too... iOS development is really building a critical mass.

Bad move, Redmond...

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (-1, Troll)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117391)

Blcamp, what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117439)

DAldredge, do you and your alter egos, i.e., westlake, recoiledsnake, et al, ever say anything non-negative? Ever? As long as I have been reading this site I have never seen you utter a single positive contributory thing. Are you that miserable?

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (0)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117697)

Sign in then we can talk.

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117545)

Isn't this a direct quote from the Simpsons?

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (1)

radeon21 (1183313) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117763)

Billy Madison

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117429)

The LAMP stack has improved if it can build Windows desktop apps. They haven't talked about VWD, just the desktop targeted tools like the express versions of C# and VB. Funny thing is that they're targeting Metro and that's moving to HTML/JS.

Re:That'll Drive 'em Away... (3, Informative)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117529)

Qt for Windows builds with mingw, so YES it is possible to build Windows desktop apps for free.

Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117377)

mingw is better anyway

I guess perl and python must be dead too? (1)

robbo (4388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117379)

Just because I can't write c# console apps doesn't mean I can't write console apps...

Re:I guess perl and python must be dead too? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117425)

What about Microsoft makes you think that they'd stop at limiting you to being forced into buying Professional to develop any kind of application (particularly an OSS one)? Microsoft's policy is "get away with it as long as we can," always has been. They'll just blatantly ignore the way things are supposed to be done and then deal wtih the slap on the wrist later...maybe a pittance of a fine, that's all it ever amounts to really. I wouldn't be surprised if some future version of Windows doesn't even allow you to install programs that don't come from some Windows 8 version of the iTunes app store.

Re:I guess perl and python must be dead too? (1)

deniable (76198) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117477)

Just download the MS SDK. It's been free for years and includes the compiler et al. It's only the pretty IDEs that are a problem.

Windows SDK no longer includes toolchain (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117793)

Just download the MS SDK. It's been free for years and includes the compiler et al. It's only the pretty IDEs that are a problem.

Not anymore: [microsoft.com]

"The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately."

Re:I guess perl and python must be dead too? (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117843)

RTFA. They're removing the compiler from the Win8 SDK.

are they trying to turn us into win7 zealots (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117389)

There isnt a week where I dont come upon a story like this and laugh out loud. Its a shame too as Win 8 has nice features.

It was just Metro and now the lack of media player outside ultimate, no gui with aero in desktop mode, and now this?! What the hell are they going to fuck uo next?

There are work arounds like win7start and the intel compilers and eclipse (sucks to use phenom), but buying a machine with win 7 instead is a lot less hassle.

XP was bashed here on slashdot for years and then came Vista. Now these same users who bashed it think XP is the next coming of christ and perfection at its core and refuse to leave the 11 year old platform. Now we are being transformed into cutting enthusiasts to luddites we cant stand. Amazing what a bad OS can do.

I never would have have quit Linux due to its tavlet UI in March 2011 if I knew what was in store for Win 8.

Re:are they trying to turn us into win7 zealots (1)

SpryGuy (206254) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117595)

It was just Metro and now the lack of media player outside ultimate, no gui with aero in desktop mode, and now this?! What the hell are they going to fuck uo next?

Not sure what you're talking about here to be honest... maybe care to rephrase? Because Desktop Windows Media Player is available in all Windows 8 versions except WinRT.

And I'm sure that if you want to revert to "Areo" for whatever reason (and why would you want to on a laptop?), you'll be able to. If it's not a built-in option in the OS configuration, then it'll be avaliable as a third party tweak (just like the start menu and button).

Re:are they trying to turn us into win7 zealots (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117719)

Aero is gone with an ugly win 7 basic like gui but with all blinding white. Ms mentioned it would be discontinued.

The media player is gone from all but ultimate. Pro wont carry it so except to carry 2 laptops to watch a movie on a plane if ypu use a work laptop.

The news keeps getting worse

Re:are they trying to turn us into win7 zealots (1)

walshy007 (906710) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117827)

I never would have have quit Linux due to its tavlet UI in March 2011 if I knew what was in store for Win 8.

There are more desktop environments than what ubuntu ships with you know, hell if you install a non-gimped version of linux (like the fedora dvd installer) you can install multiple at the same time and select them when you log in.

I too dislike gnome3 and unity etc, that's why I use kde. There are other options also if you like.

SACRE BLEU !! HOW CAN THIS BE !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117417)

Is it the stink of my body ?? Is it the hair on my legs ?? My underarms ?? What is it that has you do this to me, oh Microsoft ?? Yes, I am French !! Yes, I am WOMAN !! Why forsake me !!

Is Apple really that great role model? (5, Insightful)

hydrofix (1253498) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117509)

It seems like with this move and generally the Metro and Windows 8 walled garden stuff, Microsoft is going more and more "the Apple way". Is it really in their best interest? Is it just me, or hasn't the open-ish (compared to Apple) Intel + Microsoft Windows ecosystem served a desktop market niche that is different from the Apple universe? Does Microsoft have an exit strategy in case they fail in closer competition with Apple at Apple's game?

Re:Is Apple really that great role model? (5, Insightful)

BenJeremy (181303) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117743)

It seems like with this move and generally the Metro and Windows 8 walled garden stuff, Microsoft is going more and more "the Apple way". Is it really in their best interest? Is it just me, or hasn't the open-ish (compared to Apple) Intel + Microsoft Windows ecosystem served a desktop market niche that is different from the Apple universe? Does Microsoft have an exit strategy in case they fail in closer competition with Apple at Apple's game?

I wish I had mod points today....

This nails the point EXACTLY.

Microsoft is in such a rush to try and capture their own share of the mobile market and stay relevant, they are dumping 30 years of solid R&D in desktop user interfaces for an unintuitive tablet-centric UI, and in an effort to drive developers into the walled garden, they are now enforcing Metro development with their free tools.

The short-sighted idiots driving this nonsense at Microsoft are forsaking the desktop world with this move, though. As bad as we thought Vista was, it still sold well enough (tied to new systems) - but the user furor over Windows 8 will make the Vista flap seem like a blip in comparison. It's a wrong-headed approach to try and shove the genie back into the bottle, Microsoft... and worse, trying to do it by creating a hybrid UI that does no specific job particularly well for users of either environment. Compromises that sacrifice millions of dollars of very good research into user interfaces will end up costing you far more in the long run. ....and if consumers will be rebelling against Windows 8, what do you think will happen in the enterprise world? It's just starting to deploy Windows 7 desktops, warily approaching it after the nightmare that was Vista. Windows 8 demands retraining that will cost some organizations MILLIONS to implement. The introduction of Metro will also likely introduce a whole new firestorm of exploits for IT admins to face.

Congrats, Microsoft, for turning into a dumbass company overnight.

Do yourselves a big favor, Microsoft.... dump everybody in the company who thought Win8 Metro was a good decision for the desktop. FIRE THEM, and scrap the launch before it's too late. Pretend it never happened and begin working on Win9 with a Start Button and the improvements users WANT (like a new file system, for example, DLNA that works, improved stability and app fault recovery), instead of forcing limitations and touchscreen UIs down their throats.

Re:Is Apple really that great role model? (1)

RyuuzakiTetsuya (195424) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117927)

The apple way would be to periodically scrap your business model, and try something new. From the Apple 2 to the Mac, from Classic OS to OSX, from iPod to iPhone, to letting iOS cannibalize OSX sales...

The apple way would be to give away VS.net and rebuild windows from scratch. They're half assing this one. I say metro or not. Ship or get off the pot.

Freeloaders? (1)

yayotters (833158) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117527)

What's the big deal? 2010 will still be available. Version 11 will cost $500 which is similar to what graphic artists pay Adobe for some of their software. Students are able to use free copies of the software through Dreamspark. I fail to see why this is an issue.

Re:Freeloaders? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117625)

What's the big deal?

Nothing. Abandonment of Microsoft platforms will accelerate. No one anywhere near me does any native Windows work. Nothing. We're all earning a living just fine, thanks.

That's what you get for using their products (1)

Omnifarious (11933) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117555)

They all exist to make Microsoft more money. In this case, they want to manipulate developers into developing for a platform they're trying to push because they think they can make more money off it it. Everything you do when you base your stuff on their platform exists to enrich them. And if it happens to enrich you in the process, well insomuch as the vague promise that it might happen keeps people developing for their platform, Microsoft cares. Otherwise, they don't care at all, and if you become really successful, they'll look for a way to make sure your success feeds their success at the expense of your success.

That's the nature of the Microsoft game, and they haven't ever changed how they play it. They can't. Their chosen business model depends on it.

Qt for Windows (2)

FranTaylor (164577) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117559)

Why not write in Qt for Windows? It's certainly pleasant to work with, and you get Linux and OSX ports basically for free.

Developers, developers, developers, developers!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117561)

Hey Mr. Ballmer, who should we screw over to make more money?

Developers, developers, developers.... (4, Funny)

jkrise (535370) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117577)

Get Lost, Get Lost, Get Lost.

Enuff said. The desktop is the only saving grace for Microsoft, let alone Windows. Talk about killing the golden goose.

I'd like to take a moment... (2)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117587)

...to laugh silently and sombrely at this comment [slashdot.org] from only three weeks ago, which is now tragically and frustratingly wrong.

Re:I'd like to take a moment... (2)

BenJeremy (181303) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117893)

Hmmm... yet from what I see on the Windows SDK features page:

Visual C++ 2010 Compilers and C Runtime (CRT)

"The new Windows compilers and CRT for the x86, x64, and Itanium (IA64) operating systems are included in the Windows SDK and integrated into its command-line build environment. These compilers and CRT are the same as those that are included in Visual Studio 2010."

According to their own feature page, the compilers are included in the SDK. /Have MSDN Sub, but won't be worrying about Win8 development for some time, if ever, as an enterprise developer.

Microsoft has forgotten what business they're in (4, Insightful)

JDG1980 (2438906) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117589)

Microsoft is so consumed with "Apple envy" that they seem to have forgotten what their bread and butter is: the business desktop. They are so obsessed with being a competitor in the tablet market that they are making a product that actively hurts their core demographic.

Why do people use Windows? Legacy support is a BIG reason – and yet Microsoft under Ballmer seems dedicated to trying to kill it as quickly as possible. Guess what? If legacy support goes away, so does a large part of the reason for people not switching to another OS! After all, if they have to rewrite everything anyway... Ballmer once understood that "developers, developers, developers" were what made Microsoft's platform dominate; now he seems to be going for tablet/smartphone-using hipsters and tweens, and giving developers the middle finger.

::Yawn:: whatever; Wake me when they tire of VMs. (0)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117607)

I would have cared if they'd said something about C99, or some other relevant compiler standard (C++2011). Guess I'll just keep cranking out cross platform applications with GCC / G++ and a thin OS abstraction layer... My users LOVE that my programs look and work the same on whatever OS they choose without requiring a huge VM or runtime and all the (in)compatibilities they bring -- I've taken over several jobs due to MS runtime updates breaking my competitor's tools...

I ran a survey last month. Zero of my clients care about 'metro' whatsoever. They just want my UI to be the same slowly changing extremely (well?) thought out custom UI I've always had. I'll run the survey again later, but I'm pretty sure I know the response... They all loathed the demo of my "metro" compatible UI layer. It's not that people hate change, it's that they hate arbitrary change for no good reason.

Hell, this move by MS won't affect my indie game side project at all either... Someone cue the sad trombone: OS's are irrelevant to folks nowadays, cross platform, platform independence is the future. MS is once again fighting progress for the sake of monopoly. It's enough to make you want to drop the platform, it is.

I bet this is incorrect (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117641)

I bet this is incorrect, Just like Visual Studio Express supposedly doesn't let you build C++ apps or x64 compiled targets, this is simply wrong because it doesn't include the necessary SDK's "in the box" so to speak. You can build everything in the current version of Visual Studio that you could in Visual Studio 6. Updating projects never work, so you'll probably spend half a day rebuilding the project from scratch, but it will still do what you want it to do.

My impression from the Express software is that Microsoft "want you not to develop legacy shit", by not including the SDK's, but it's easy enough to add them. Like hell was I going to develop using C#-only and make Microsoft-phone only things when what I really want to do is recompile DosBox and VFW codecs (requires MFC) to 64bit targets. Microsoft may want people to stop using legacy shit, but their replacements are obnoxiously hard to program for.

Platform SDK (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117673)

If you wanted a fancy version of Visual Studio, it's always cost money. If, on the other hand, you want actual build tools, the Platform SDK has been free for a while. And so is the WDK. Man up and learn nmake already. Even Microsoft doesn't build Windows with VS, nor do they use Source Safe, for that matter.

Nothing to worry about (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117687)

Because Visual Studio 11 is like 1999 versions before Visual Studio 2010... so the newer version is still free.

No Great Loss (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40117689)

I abandoned MS tools and tech-stacks years ago, and I'm a much happier developer, as a result.

Chasing Smartphone marketshare it will never get (2)

CuteSteveJobs (1343851) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117791)

A lot of people still use laptops and desktops. Microsoft is throwing away that market to be in also ran far behind iPhone and Android. Microsoft should focus on doing what they do best. Instead they are scaring Windows customers and Windows developers into leaving the PC platform. Poorly played, Microsoft.

Even if older versions of Visual Studio can be used, they are notorious for breaking under new OSs. VS2003 won't work on Vista or Windows 7. VS2005/2008 is slower, and VS2010 doesn't support global directories so you must enter your search paths manually into every single library, making porting time consuming and tedious. What Microsoft are doing here is saying if you don't want to develop METRO apps, then it's time to leave the Windows platform.

developers, developers, developers (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 2 years ago | (#40117859)

guess that mindset is gone.
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