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Barter-Based School Catching On Globally

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the i'll-give-you-a-black-lotus-for-your-calculus dept.

Education 118

sethopia writes "In 2010, three people had the crazy idea to start a school where the teachers teach whatever they want and the students pay for classes with whatever teachers need — cutlery, art, advice — but never with money. Trade Schools have been popping up around the world and are now active in 15 cities and 10 countries, with almost no prodding from its founders. Caroline Woolard, one of the founders, discusses the challenges and opportunities of adapting their idea to an international audience and making the Trade School software — based on Python and Django — great."

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Pay with what teachers need. (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121827)

Blowjobs?

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121993)

As I clicked on the button to read the comments I felt a millions comments screaming out to me from across the internet that were basically that. Well, the story is not that interesting, so this reading this silly thread will probably be more interesting than the article.

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (1)

shiftless (410350) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124337)

As I clicked on the button to read the comments I felt a millions comments screaming out to me from across the internet that were basically that.

That's funny... I didn't.

Maybe it has to do with maturity, or geeks with way too much sex on the mind.

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122251)

Why not?

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122473)

So If I went to get a Microsoft Certification, I should be prepared to do a frontal lobotomy?

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (1)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123137)

Or at least bring your own ample supply of anal lube...

Re:Pay with what teachers need. (1)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123235)

I would be prepared to receive one.

Isn't that the oldest form of commerce? (1)

Weezul (52464) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123713)

An exchange of valued commodities plays some role in the courtship rituals of most if not all mammal and avian species, meaning it predates the "oldest profession". I suppose you'll claim that since teaching a class doesn't amount to courtship then blowjobs sound more akin to prostitution?

In any case, we know the ancient greeks and roman boys rewarded their teachers with blowjobs and anal sex.

Ugh. (-1, Troll)

oldhack (1037484) | more than 2 years ago | (#40121855)

Another crap "social" story. Puke and rash.

Re:Ugh. (1)

Flipstylee (1932884) | more than 2 years ago | (#40121885)

But i could totally be making wacky furniture [kickstarter.com] in 12 days!

Re:Ugh. (3, Interesting)

Technician (215283) | more than 2 years ago | (#40121949)

Maybe not. This may be nothing more than an advancement of an Apprenticeship. This is how I learned commercial refrigeration. When I worked in a classified space, we rarely shut down to allow outside trades in, so much of the HVAC was done in house. As such I learned much of the trade including hard silver soldering, hydraulic unloaders, adjustment and proper use of thermostatic expansion valves, etc as OJT with the textbook Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning which is pretty much the bible on the subject. http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Refrigeration-Conditioning-Andrew-Althouse/dp/1590702808 [amazon.com]

It took me the longest to grasp the theory of how continious cycle absorption cycle worked, but I finally understood it too.

With my training, I am now trained to charge, maintain, service, and repair systems for chilled water up to 500 Ton.

Re:Ugh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121977)

It's easy to confuse News for Nerds with News for Losers like you, but that's not the case.

Re:Ugh. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122263)

Fuck you.

Can they pay with Bitcoin? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121883)

Because I just happen to have $87,000 worth of Bitcoin.

Re:Can they pay with Bitcoin? (4, Funny)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122053)

What a coincidence, mister. I just happen to have a waterfront house on the marvellous Island of Bogomipi, off the beautiful coast of Nigeria. My friend, the charming lady Ogoboffo Moffo has seen the island and says it would suit any Lord of the Bitcoin power with good computer skills. We have good electricity skills in this island. And excellent telephone connections. Please, contact me and you and I we make little bicoins into more, larger and much shinier bitcoins. You are my friend mister. Please let the world find heaven in golden collaboration.

Re:Can they pay with Bitcoin? (1)

Dr Herbert West (1357769) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122127)

Jesus... that's the funniest thing I'm gonna read all day... might as well start drinking!

Re:Can they pay with Bitcoin? (1)

axlr8or (889713) | more than 2 years ago | (#40125161)

Cant i just give you my checking account number so you can deposit all that fugitive capital and pay me 10 percent of it? That would be so much easier than mining bitcoins.

Re:Can they pay with Bitcoin? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122061)

Is the timestamp for that number the same as your comment?

wow, bartering is still around (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121911)

bfd

government shuts them down in 3...2...1... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121937)

the local mafia gets pissed whenever value changes hands without giving them a cut

heh captcha:seized

Re:government shuts them down in 3...2...1... (1)

Surt (22457) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122875)

In most countries you owe tax on your barter as you would on a cash transaction. That is, in these kinds of situations, you are equally free not to pay tax either way.

Tradition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121939)

What happened to the good ol' days when you would just pay for better grades with sex? ;)

Re:Tradition? (1)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123283)

Students got uglier.

Teacher willing to educate for... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40121973)

sexual favors

Cash (2, Insightful)

pitchpipe (708843) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122073)

...the students pay for classes with whatever teachers need â" cutlery, art, advice â" but never with money.

What the hell do they have against cash? Cash is the most useful thing I own.

Re:Cash (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122481)

Good evening and welcome to 'The Money Programme'. Tonight on 'The Money Programme', we're going to look at money. Lots of it. On film, and in the studio. Some of it in nice piles, others in lovely clanky bits of loose change, some of it neatly counted into fat little hundreds, delicate fivers stuffed into bulging wallets, nice crisp clean cheques, pert pieces of copper coinage thrust deep into trouser pockets, romantic foreign money rolling against the thigh with rough familiarity, (starting to get excited) beautiful wayward curlicued banknotes, filigree copperplating cheek by jowl with tumbling hexagonal milled edges, rubbing gently against the terse leather of beautifully balanced bank books (collects himself) I'm sorry. But I love money. All money. I've always wanted money.(getting worked up again) To handle. To touch. The smell of the rain-washed florin. The lure of the lira. (standing on the desk) The glitter and the glory of the guinea. The romance of the rouble. The feel of the franc, the heel of the Deutschmark. The cold antiseptic sting of the Swiss franc, and the sunburnt splendor of the Australian dollar.

I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pajamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots and lots of lira,
Now the deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bill could buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money,
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash,
Some people say it's folly
But I'd rather have the lolly
With money you can make a smash.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money
There is nothing like a newly minted pound
Everyone must hanker
For the butchness of a banker
It's accountancy that makes the world go round.

You can keep your Marxist ways
For it's only just a phase.
For its money, money, money,
Makes the world go round.
Money, money, money, money, money, money!

Re:Cash (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122739)

...the students pay for classes with whatever teachers need â" cutlery, art, advice â" but never with money.

What the hell do they have against cash? Cash is the most useful thing I own.

taxes and red tape.

Re:Cash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123433)

No matter how you get paid, your income is still, in the letter of the law, taxable.

If your scheme is small enough I'm sure you can get away with avoiding tax by calling it barter, but if this thing grows large enough, I'm sure test cases will appear in courts showing that this income is taxable. And since you have to estimate the value of what you receive (instead of reporting a dollar amount)... even more red tape.

Re:Cash (2)

Prune (557140) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124591)

Uh, income from barter is taxable, so get off your high horse. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html [irs.gov]

Re:Cash (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#40126913)

yes, it's taxable. if you find a value for it. that is, if you sell the thing forward for example, then it has a known value.

but I'll bet you a thousand bucks if we went out and found these guys who have been doing this that we would find them not having paid taxes on the barter - if simply for the reason that it's pretty complicated for them to come up with a tax value for something like an used bicycle or three kilos of home grown potatoes or coke.

this is just a simple system of obfuscating the payment, helps with working illegally, studying with holiday visas.. etc etc. otherwise they'd also accept cash.
  but of course it would be easy for tax man to argue that it's simply going around the system which it is.

Re:Cash (1)

Savantissimo (893682) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123091)

"Cash is the most useful thing I own."

Well, if I have cutlery, I can take your cash. 8-D
Seriously, though, it is cool. Most schools freak out if you bring cutlery to class.

Re:Cash (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123725)

It would do us well to get somewhat used to the idea of bartering for the things we need. When economies collapse, everyone falls back to the barter system. Not saying that the U.S. economy is on the brink or anything (although it's certainly a lot closer than it was 30 years ago) but most younger people seem to have no concept of bartering for goods and services or look at it with incredulity. My uncles, all older tradesmen (carpentry, electrical, plumbing) all worked on the barter system occasionally over the course of their careers, especially with other tradesmen, where it's a lot more common for people to work out deals like that under the table. They're retired mostly, now, but they still do the odd job here or there, usually in trade (my carpenter uncle, for instance, recently did a small job for someone in exchange for a few cords of seasoned firewood).

While I can't ignore the tax-dodging aspects of arrangements like this, it's hard for me to see a negative in reviving the barter system to a certain extent in the collective consciousness. Maybe it would even have a positive impact on wastefulness, when people realize that the stuff they're tossing might be worth something they could actually use in trade to the right person. This guy started trading with a single paperclip and ended up eventually getting a house. [blogspot.com] Obviously not typical, but still demonstrative of the value in trade.

Re:Cash (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124849)

It would do us well to get somewhat used to the idea of bartering for the things we need. When economies collapse, everyone falls back to the barter system.

It's more likely they'll fall back to an alternate currency system. At least once in US history people used postage stamps as a replacement for money when it was scarce. Using a currency is obvious enough that it'll start happening right away.

Re:Cash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40126429)

If you have something worth trading, and someone to trade with, barter is fine and good. But the great thing about the US Dollar is that no matter where you go in the US, it's always worth exactly one dollar... I don't see the problem.

Re:Cash (1)

mikael (484) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123777)

Maybe they are on holiday, religious or resident visas that would prevent either from attending paid educational courses or receiving financial payment. I know friends in France who are not allowed to "work" as English language tutors, but accept gifts instead. Same with the French language tutors.

Re:Cash (1)

tehcyder (746570) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133409)

Maybe they are on holiday, religious or resident visas that would prevent either from attending paid educational courses or receiving financial payment. I know friends in France who are not allowed to "work" as English language tutors, but accept gifts instead. Same with the French language tutors.

So in short, they're criminal enterprises. The government should close them all down.

Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (5, Funny)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122103)

Holy white on yellow batman! Their site (http://tradeschool.coop/) has successfully burrowed inside my eyes and is setting up a permanent tent city. They could use some help designing the site, or at least getting a readable color scheme. Mayo on yellow mustard surrounded by ketchup is not working.

Re:Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122141)

It looks like the loading screen for a Commodore 64 game.

Re:Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (2)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122211)

It looks like the loading screen for a Commodore 64 game.

Yes. Without any of the awesome.

Re:Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122287)

Yeah, the site could use some more Turboloader.

Re:Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (1)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123297)

Is the URL
L (cmd)O "*",8,1
?

Re:Trade with a Web Designer... Please. (2)

scumfuker (882056) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122433)

I need to comment to undo a bad mod on my part. Whoopsy!

teach whatever they want better then college (1, Interesting)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122115)

teach whatever they want better then college as college is loaded with filler classes, way off base classes, required classes that some times are not even related to what you want to learn. Loads of gen ed and lot's theory based classes that do not give much help in learning what you want to learn. There needs to be more apprenticeship like learning out there with REAL skills. HVCA, pumpers , ECT don't take 2-4 years full of mainly theory based classes and off base filler classes to learn how to do there work.

For the tech field apprenticeship like learning is needed as jobs say they want CS but then say people with CS BA don't have the right skills. Lead to the facts that 2-4 years pure classroom is to much and that CS is a POOR fit all for tech jobs when you have tech school out there that do tech skills that are better a fits for the job so why not have some kind of 1-3 years mixed tech school + apprenticeship like learning in place of a BA,AA,MA for tech jobs as real job skills are big.

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (4, Insightful)

bigtrike (904535) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122551)

Those gen ed classes don't go nearly far enough. Many programmers have terrible grammar, limiting their ability to work on anything public facing without supervision.

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123037)

This needs +5 funny, not +4 insightful.

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123171)

Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (2)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40126029)

You get 13 years of Gen ed classes before entering college. If you haven't been able to get educated in 13 years, a few more years are not going to change things. The only reasonable rational for colleges is for specialization.

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (1)

tehcyder (746570) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133443)

You get 13 years of Gen ed classes before entering college. If you haven't been able to get educated in 13 years, a few more years are not going to change things. The only reasonable rational for colleges is for specialization.

You are entirely wrong. The subjects you study at college are irrelevant, what is important is the continuing education in learning how to think for yourself (rather than just regurgitate material from textbooks).

If you do a degree in Chemistry or History, it does not mean you are training to be a Chemist or Historian (although some people will).

Re:teach whatever they want better then college (1)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133497)

If you have not learned to think for yourself in the first 13 years of education, a few more years is not going to make the difference.

school of continuing education...? (2)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122185)

Looking at the kinds of classes they do [tradeschool.coop] , most of it seems like the kind of thing where if I wanted to take that kind of course, I'd probably go to my local school of continuing education [cc.ca.us] . Cooking, drawing, photography, crafts, ... Here in California, at least, these courses are extremely cheap.

It seems like it's more of a political mission than an educational one.

Re:school of continuing education...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40127273)

This can't possibly work in america !?!?

how would these schools get money to the NEA or the Democrats ?
how would they advance a left-wing agenda ?

if the free-market intrudes on college, can a liberal ideology compete ?

Black Mountain College-- wave of the future? (2)

Dr Herbert West (1357769) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122223)

Let's face it, edjimication isn't getting any cheaper... and my understanding (based on a not-very rigorous survey of people I personally know, some of whom are tenured professors at the college level in the US) is that more and more young folk are going the way of trade schools (in the traditional sense).

Why get crazy in debt for a liberal arts degree when you can get real world skills for less of a financial outlay?
Pros: -Get a job in an actual career (someone mentioned refrigerator repair earlier-- doesn't sound sexy, but fixing things and working with your hands appeals to a lot of people)
-Don't spend the rest of your life in debt
-Learn in an environment where people are there to learn (a lot of college pukes I see are there to party on their parent's dime)

Cons:
-Accredation?
-Unsure about the qualifications of a teacher who doesn't/can't get a regular teaching gig
-Facilities? I don't want to learn welding at a college where safety gear is "donated"!

There's been some important precedents set-- Black Mountain College [wikipedia.org] had a similar model.

ITT/IVYTECH-- wave of the future? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40125299)

Why get crazy in debt for a liberal arts degree when you can get real world skills for less of a financial outlay?

Or go to ITT Technical Institute or IvyTech and still go into debt.

Re:Black Mountain College-- wave of the future? (1)

tehcyder (746570) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133535)

Why get crazy in debt for a liberal arts degree when you can get real world skills for less of a financial outlay?

Because having a proper education isn't just about learning work-related skills?

Look at me! (-1, Troll)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122281)

Look at me! I can promote my idea on slashdot for free! All I need to do is submit an interview that contains the words "python" and "django"!

Re:Look at me! (1)

flyneye (84093) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122529)

Shills are pills lacking skills for useful fills. Bullshit mills of corrupt wills seeking thrills to pay the bills.Makes me ill, even still I want to kill, fillet and gill and poke a dill up their Jill.

Why the hatred of money? (2)

trout007 (975317) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122369)

I don't get why people think barter is more moral than money. I can see being against government endorsed fiat currency. But money allows complicated development to occur. You can use barter to build anything of substance. Money allows for figuring out the most efficient way to accomplish your goals.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122455)

Hating money is a nice way to express your hatred of the bad aspects of our capitalistic system, without making oneself and obvious hypocrite and/or nutcase. Go look at the last story, "Can You Buy Tech With a Clean Conscience?", if you want to see what happens when money isn't getting blamed. Not pretty.

Money is, of course, just an extension of barter. No reason to think any system of barter will not on its own develop money - as has happened in every civilization, no matter how small. It's simply the end result: systems like having an abstraction of value.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122525)

Hating money is a nice way to express your hatred of the bad aspects of our capitalistic system, without making oneself and obvious hypocrite and/or nutcase

Contrary to certain belief, it does still make someone a nutcase.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

mc6809e (214243) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122625)

Hating money is a nice way to express your hatred of the bad aspects of our capitalistic system,

Nearly half of US households now receive some sort of assistance/income from government and the interstate commerce clause gives the Federal government ultimate control of the economy.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to call our system a mixed economy?

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122703)

A mixed economy in denial.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123329)

I would further argue that any market that companies like Exxon-Mobile are participating in are by no stretch of the imagination a "free market". Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" was based on the model of an agricultural economy, in which each of the buyers and sellers are infinitesimally small compared to the total size of the market. As soon as there are companies that are "too big to fail", you no longer have a free market. Additionally, if the government is allowed to interfere in a market, e.g. via the tax code, then competing by paying off politicians becomes more effective then competing based on value, and the system becomes inherently corrupt. I'd love to see a system of free market capitalism wherein all people are ultimately held responsible for the downstream effects of their actions. But that's not what we currently have.
By the way... how do I get into that 50% that is receiving government assistance? Does my daughter attending public school count as government assistance?

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

tehcyder (746570) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133647)

Capitalism will inevitably lead to very large corporations and monopolies, and thus not be a free market, unless prevented by government. So you're never going to have a free market without government intervention, at which point it stops being a free market.

This is because the idea of a perfect free market is just an economic abstraction, not a reality.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

bky1701 (979071) | more than 2 years ago | (#40125207)

When you find a less mixed one, I'll accept that classification. To me, the US is pretty much second only to anarchistic African warlord states in terms of lack of government involvement in the economy. Even that is kind of loosening the definition. Europe and China would be mixed economies; purely socialist ones are mostly a thing of the past, although Cuba might still qualify.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122535)

The ones who think money is immoral are usually those without it.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

Savantissimo (893682) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123133)

It would be hypocritical the other way around, wouldn't it? Though there are worse things than hypocrisy. Poverty, for instance.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

rohan972 (880586) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124409)

Not only those without, just less than someone else. I have multimillionaire relatives that tut-tut at billionaires because "no-one needs that much money".

Many people link too much money is evil and set the allowable amount to a little bit above what they have.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124485)

lol everyone with less money than me is poor, everyone with more money than me is greedy.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

flyneye (84093) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122571)

Well you have a point there! Not to detract from that, I could use some money. Gimme' your wallet, that's right, it is a gun. Uh, uh, no bartering or negotiating.
Just your money. I need it so I don't have to bother with barter. When you're right , your right.
  Okey dokey, transaction complete. Lights out *!

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

akgooseman (632715) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122655)

Bartering lets you end-run the tax man.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

trout007 (975317) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123805)

The IRS taxes barter income too.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

Prune (557140) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124603)

You're either a troll or an idiot--barter is taxable, just like any other transaction: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html [irs.gov]

Re:Why the hatred of money? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40126445)

Okay, when my company starts paying me in cheeseburgers, I'll send IRS 1/4 of each burger. Or, I'll send them 25% of the cash value of the deal, which is zero.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123153)

Hatred of money is a rather simplistic write-off of the logical mistrust many people hold for the promise of a brighter future from over-priced academic institutions, currently.

If it were only a medium of exchange, as we're taught, money might be generally considered benign, but we all understand, at some level, that in a system where money is fiat and subject to manipulation. So there's more to it. Not too many people I know can parse the language or explore the logic behind the monetary system under which they operate, but everyone I know has some sense that manipulations, at the level of central banks, currency markets or fiscal governmental policies result in a loss for most individuals.

In the context of education, the current economic environment couldn't be more informative. There's never been an inherent promise that a so-called higher education will land you a specific job, yet the statistics regarding average economic performance over the professional life of the average individual are still trotted out to justify the "investment in your future." This even when the nature of most domestic markets is bleak, and such performance is based on the same compounded interest on salary, savings and the future that led us down the Wall Street based real-estate backed derivative fantasy into which all newly minted college grads will find themselves shortly.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123781)

.. do you think they pay the same taxes as they would pay if they processed payments in the local currency?

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

mikael (484) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123897)

20% sales tax on low quality imports vs. home grown / home made produce with no tax (jam, honey, scarves, woollen wear, cords of wood for winter, compost, clothing) . One persons trash is another persons spare parts.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

Prune (557140) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124619)

No tax, you say? Barter is taxable, just like anything else, and if you're not paying tax on items you barter, you're carrying out a criminal offense. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html [irs.gov]

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

mikael (484) | more than 2 years ago | (#40128665)

Fortunately, these weren't carried out in the USA. But it might explain why so many European countries have financial problems, especially when the majority of the population lives in small villages.

  In the UK, the big problem was with people paying builders, plumbers and joiners in cash and avoiding the 20% VAT (which can be quite considerable when prices go over £5000.

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

mjwx (966435) | more than 2 years ago | (#40125311)

I don't get why people think barter is more moral than money. I can see being against government endorsed fiat currency. But money allows complicated development to occur. You can use barter to build anything of substance. Money allows for figuring out the most efficient way to accomplish your goals.

They think it's a good way to avoid tax. It isn't.

They also don't realise how impractical it is. 1/3 of a banana for that box of nails... what are you going to do with the other 2/3 of the banana?

Re:Why the hatred of money? (1)

tehcyder (746570) | more than 2 years ago | (#40133559)

I can see being against government endorsed fiat currency

I can see thinking space bats are following you everywhere. It's called insanity.

No Cash? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40122397)

I don't see where they are going to get teachers to teach this. Or at least full time teachers. I can't buy groceries and pay rent/mortgage/bills with cutlery, art, advice, etc...

Re:No Cash? (1)

MindlessAutomata (1282944) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122629)

If only the world could be fueled on socialist self-righteousness.

Fiat currency FTL (0)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 2 years ago | (#40122975)

The less value paper money has, and the more regulation and taxation there is on commerce, the more of this you will see.

College is free in someplaces (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40123113)

Im going to blow your mid.

I live in a country were college education is FREE FOR EVERYBODY. You can do medicine, lawyer, engineer, what you want, for 0 $

Re:College is free in someplaces (1)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123239)

You fucking SOCIALIST! ;-)
There is a theory that people work harder at something if they have to pay for it, but in general I believe subsidizing education results in the greatest common good. If you don't think so, look at the African countries that have no publicly funded education at all... the people in those countries are fairly screwed, and there is little social mobility. Providing a free college education based on merit is one of the most effective means of increasing social mobility.In the US the most effective social program has been the GI Bill, which has helped more poor become comfortably middle class than any other program.

A giant leap backwards. (2)

Locke2005 (849178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123181)

Originally, all transactions were based are barter, before human beings discovered that the use of money was a much more efficient means of matching up supply and demand. With barter, you need to match up with somebody else whose needs and supply are the reciprocal of your own. With money, your supply and demand get translated by "the market" into monetary values, and you can exchange goods with people halfway across the world. Explain to me again how barter is a superior system...

Re:A giant leap backwards. (1)

waveclaw (43274) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123593)

Originally, all transactions were based are barter, before human beings discovered that the use of money was a much more efficient means of collecting taxes.

It is hard to come up with a system superior to barter for resisting taxes. Perhaps something might work involving offshore accounts, 'charitable organizations' and friends in politics. But that's not something the average joe can get in on.

Remember, it is the government and its police/military that backs up the concept of money as value. It is these quarterly taxes ensuing that vendor needs to take in a lot o' the current regime's dollars and the company needs to pay out in same. Otherwise the value of fiat money is whatever the vendor will take. Corporate script is worthless outside the company store.

Well, there is debt as a form of control through obligations, but that's a whole other topic.

Barter is taxable (1)

DerangedAlchemist (995856) | more than 2 years ago | (#40128633)

Legally you are supposed to pay tax on barter and those laws are there exactly to prevent what you describe. It just hasn't been profitable to enforce, and barter tends to be impractical for significant sums, but if too many transactions involved barter, the tax man will come.

Re:A giant leap backwards. (1)

pz (113803) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123615)

With money, your supply and demand get translated by "the market" into monetary values,

More important than that to the end-user is that using money decouples in time the supply you can generate, and the demand your needs create.

If I need toilet paper at 9pm on a Sunday night, I can go to the local drugstore and buy it with the cash I earned some nebulous time earlier when it was more convenient and efficient for me to generate. Who knows if I'll have a spare half dozen eggs the next time the toilet paper runs out, and if the store owner will need eggs at that point. Decoupling those two parts of the transaction makes the economy vastly more efficient.

Re:A giant leap backwards. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40124691)

Originally, all transactions were based are barter, before human beings discovered that the use of money was a much more efficient means of matching up supply and demand.

That's not correct. I get that it's often taught, but that doesn't make it true. It's one of the great myths of our time that market systems started out as some grand barter system then involved into currency. The reality is not only more plausible, but more complex.

If you really care to know the truth, I'd suggest you start reading "Debt: The First 5000 Years" by David Graeber and work from there.

Re:A giant leap backwards. (2)

dmm10 (726220) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124727)

The myth you stated (the founding myth that Adam Smith used in creating the field of economics) is just that. The fantasy world of barter never existed. The historic progression is from virtual money (ancient Mesopotamia where one silver shekel = one bushel barley = ... and the silver never left the treasury) to coinage (much later) to barter (used mainly by people who were used to cash transactions when currency wasn't available and a system of credit didn't exist.)

Look to John Maynard Keynes (his self described "Babylonian madness") attempting to ascertain the origins of money or a significant body of anthropological research if you wish to dissuade yourself of the fiction in intro economics texts. You will find exceptional uses of barter amongst indigenous peoples (typically were either the parties involved are mimicking or actually near violent conflict or the parties don't know each other and don't expect to encounter each other again so they attempt to swindle each other by bartering.)

No, a more common human endeavor before the state creation of money was that people pooled there excess materials and equitably portioned them out as needed (ex. Iroquois longhouses.) Gifting exchanges were long the norm in some areas until states created markets based on money via taxes. Another alternative still exists commonly, obligations. Debt being the commodification of obligations with a fixed monetization.

For a setting where coinage is scarce or one would protest the state that issues such coinage barter is the historical norm.

Re:A giant leap backwards. (1)

CarsonChittom (2025388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40125063)

Originally, all transactions were based are barter, before human beings discovered that the use of money was a much more efficient means of matching up supply and demand.

Well, sort of. But people started using money, loosely defined, pretty damn quick. Talking about the third and early second millennia BC:

The principal exports from Sumer to Tilmun were textiles and oil, provided by private capitalists. In the absence of coined money (which was not invented until well into the first millennium BC), there was always the problem of paying for goods and of stating the relationship between values of different commodities. One solution was to use a silver standard, even when payments were not actually made in silver . . . . This kind of use of a silver standard without actual payment in silver was a widespread commercial device before the invention of coinage. An Egyptian document of just after 1300 BC presents . . . [a] good example of it. It is a record of a lawsuit relating how a merchant had gone from house to house, offering a Syrian slave-girl for sale, until finally the wife of an official bought her. The price was stated in terms of silver, but was actually paid in various cloths, garments and bronze vessels, each item being valued in silver separately.[1]

So basically, even before there was actual money, people were using the abstraction of it in order to make their barters.

[1] Saggs, H.W.F. The Babylonians: A Survey of the Ancient Civilisation of the Tigris-Euphrates Valley. (London: The Folio Society, 1999), 215.

Re:A giant leap backwards. (1)

Karsten Deppert (1972866) | more than 2 years ago | (#40129751)

Originally, all transactions were based are barter, before human beings discovered that the use of money was a much more efficient means of matching up supply and demand. With barter, you need to match up with somebody else whose needs and supply are the reciprocal of your own. With money, your supply and demand get translated by "the market" into monetary values, and you can exchange goods with people halfway across the world. Explain to me again how barter is a superior system...

The concept of "barter" is actually quite interesting, and often misunderstood. People (and economist) just assumed that earlier, it worked as it does wtih money now, but just without the money part... It has been found however when looking at old societies and tribes to have worked very different however! There where 2 kinds of barter actually: the social trading inside the same society (village or tribe) and the trade between different villages. People did actually not barter in the sense "I will trade my cow for your 5 barrels of grain", at all. On the social barter side it was actually a system of debt, rather then direct trade. You seldom exchanged items, animals (or daughters) against something predeterminded. Instead you "gave" it away, with the social glue and norm that when you need somehing, you would get something back.... so in fact a constant system of favors owned and debts that you would get repaid later. And on the "intertribe barter" It has been found that bartering was actually much for of a ritual - on the old times it often required a long and hazardous journey to get somewhere where things you didn't produce yourself where made. And the "exchange rate" was set by tradition, and not some vague understanding of what a cow was worth.... To quote David Graeber: [nakedcapitalism.com]

In the 1940s, an anthropologist, Ronald Berndt, described one dzamalag ritual, where one group in possession of imported cloth swapped their wares with another, noted for the manufacture of serrated spears. Here too it begins as strangers, after initial negotiations, are invited to the hosts’ camp, and the men begin singing and dancing, in this case accompanied by a didjeridu. Women from the hosts’ side then come, pick out one of the men, give him a piece of cloth, and then start punching him and pulling off his clothes, finally dragging him off to the surrounding bush to have sex, while he feigns reluctance, whereon the man gives her a small gift of beads or tobacco. Gradually, all the women select partners, their husbands urging them on, whereupon the women from the other side start the process in reverse, re-obtaining many of the beads and tobacco obtained by their own husbands. The entire ceremony culminates as the visitors’ men-folk perform a coordinated dance, pretending to threaten their hosts with the spears, but finally, instead, handing the spears over to the hosts’ womenfolk, declaring: “We do not need to spear you, since we already have!”

Hope they don't forget to pay their taxes. (2)

jgoemat (565882) | more than 2 years ago | (#40123529)

You need to file form 1099-B [irs.gov] to report bartering income.. Enjoy paying tax to the government for that old cutlery you don't even want...

Barter is taxable!!! (1)

Prune (557140) | more than 2 years ago | (#40124637)

To all the cretinous imbeciles suggesting this is a way to avoid taxes, you better stop misleading the rest of slashdot readers: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html [irs.gov]

Re:Barter is taxable!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40125857)

To all the cretinous imbeciles suggesting this is a way to avoid taxes, you better stop misleading the rest of slashdot readers: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html [irs.gov]

Nobody gives a shit! Only smarmy apple-polishing turds actually calculate tax for stuff they traded informally. The government only has that law on the books at all to convince dorks like you to give them extra money. (and sometimes if they want to "get" somebody, it's nice to have a plethora of laws that virtually everyone falls afoul of.)
  They know nobody in their right mind is going to try to figure out what the fuck the tax would be on that time they gave a sack of tomatoes to their neighbor Steve in exchange for him replacing that leaky brake line on their car.

Re:Barter is taxable!!! (1)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40126157)

Actually, it is to stop people from setting up businesses that use barter for the express purpose of avoiding taxes. Exactly what these schools seem to be doing.

Why Barter Makes Sense! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40126525)

Look, it's quite simple.

The money we use now is debt-based. How does money get created? Suppose you apply for a mortgage. This will involve you signing a contract that you will hand over part of your future economic productivity to the bank in exchange for currency. Where does that currency come from? Well, once you signed the contract, the pledge to hand over economic productivity very obviously has economic value, so the bank will "trade" it with the central bank to obtain currency.

So, the bank gets paid for exercising its privilege to convert a very abstract good which you "created" (a pledge) into money (which gets newly created in this transaction).

Now, the problem is: if that money is in circulation, there is SOMEONE who borrowed it and pays the interest on it - which in the end means routing part of the overall economic productivity towards the banks. What for? Basically for the service of being able to use a very widely accepted means of exchange.

Why use a high quality product if a lower quality cheaper product can do the same job just as well? When using barter rather than currency, one does indeed "avoid tax", but it is NOT tax paid to the state (which HAS to be paid on barter!), it's the hidden tax paid to banks via interest that is avoided.

I found this article on the subject quite enlightening:

http://permaculture.org.au/2011/06/22/when-to-not-use-money-and-why/ [permaculture.org.au]

Pterry (1)

galadriel (42210) | more than 2 years ago | (#40127509)

So, they read the Tiffany Aching books by Terry Pratchett, and went, "Hey, that system of education sounds really effective and workable"?

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