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Remembering America's Fresh Water Submarines

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the bravo-zulu dept.

The Military 225

Hugh Pickens writes "As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remember the men and women who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces, I wanted to share the story of my Uncle Donald Cress born in 1922 in Bath Township, Minnesota who served as a Radioman, Third Class on the USS Robalo, one of the US Navy's 'Fresh Water Submarines' because they were commissioned in the Great Lakes. On the western shore of Lake Michigan, about 80 miles north of Milwaukee, lies Manitowoc, Wisconsin, a city whose shipyards had built car ferries and ore boats since 1902. In 1939 war broke out in Europe and President Roosevelt declared a limited National Emergency and U.S. Navy shipbuilders were concerned that submarine building capacity was not sufficient to support a long war. The US Navy asked the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company to build submarines, a task far beyond their existing capabilities, but assured them that the Electric Boat Company, with the only shipyard in the country capable of building submarines, would provide plans and whatever assistance they would need. Manitowoc's shipyard grew from 500 employees to 7,000 employees at its peak working three shifts around the clock 365 days a year and by the end of the war had built 25 submarines in time to see action that together sank 132 Japanese ships. 'It appears from the results obtained at Manitowoc that given a set of good plans, competent engineers and skilled workman can follow them and build what is called for even though it might be very much more sophisticated than anything they have built before,' writes Rear Admiral William T. Nelson. But there was one more thing the shipyard had going for it. After Pearl Harbor the entire community was now engaged in vital and important war work, sacrifice was the order of the day, and each boat was their boat. 'With the entire community following the construction with such interest and spirit, success was inevitable.'"

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Fresh Water submarines? (4, Funny)

rossdee (243626) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134179)

Only useful if we are ever attacked by canada.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134271)

Or want to attack Canada ;)
(this one is probably more likely then Canada attacking America).

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (3, Insightful)

nicholasbbyrd (2615777) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134297)

Resource wars of the future my friend, resource wars of the future.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134347)

I'm a hardcore bootynude. What do you think of that, Wilson?

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (2)

nlitement (1098451) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134721)

Few wars aren't resource wars.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (1)

akeeneye (1788292) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134787)

I have warned Canadian friends of this very threat & to keep a wary eye on the south.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134913)

It won't matter. The top 1% will simply take more from the lower 90%. Canada and the US will remains on friendly terms to the bitter end.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (2)

lennier1 (264730) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134933)

A rematch for the War of 1812?
Guess the White House is due for some renovations anyway.... ;)

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134467)

Ya hey Dere!

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40135027)

We were talking about Canada eh. North Dakota ya hoser.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (1)

RicktheBrick (588466) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135017)

I live in Ludington, Michigan There is a car ferry that crosses Lake Michigan to Manitowoc. I took my granddaughters on that ship. There is a submarine there that we took a tour on it. I think the submarines were taken to Chicago where they got on some canals to get on the Mississippi river to transit to the Gulf of Mexico and there to the Atlantic Ocean. It was an interesting and educational trip for both me and my granddaughters.

Re:Fresh Water submarines? (1)

snspdaarf (1314399) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135175)

If ever try to force us to accept Moosylvania, we'll kick their asses with our freshwater submarines!

As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remembe (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134191)

Hahaha. You mean "as we remember and celebrate barbecuing and long weekends off from work".

Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves -- worthwhile for a good cause and not so much for trivial world-cop activities and guarding international corporate interests and oil-wells. We're all guilty of promoting the government propaganda that keeps allowing elderly fucktard politicians to throw young lives away. Memorial day my fucking ass.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0, Flamebait)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134289)

Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves

That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. Granted not everything they are asked to do is worthwhile, but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0, Troll)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134343)

That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. Granted not everything they are asked to do is worthwhile, but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.

Respect is something that is is earned by virtue, warmongering is not something virtuous, nor is supporting those who warmonger with your life. What you said about Islamic state is the biggest load of crap whatsoever, reflecting that you know very little about history or culture, a common "brown people are scary" knee jerk reaction.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134451)

Give you a hint, almost all of us are anti-war. It's kind of personal, you see. I don't like being shot at. I despise killing people. I hate war. However, given the option, I pick the time and place, so cowards like you can whine and snivel. See, I read history. A lot of it. So, when I see beans and rice at a Spanish restaurant labeled "moros y cristianos" I know that's an artifact of a Muslim invasion of Southern Europe. Here is the 100 year plan. [bigthink.com]

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (2)

moonbender (547943) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134567)

And the fact that you eat "beef" and "veal" instead of Cu and Cealf is an artifact of the French conquest of England. Not sure what any of this has got to do with the military threat any country or group of people poses to another in modern times, though. "Skirt" is an artifact of the Scandinavian people invading England -- better watch out for those Norwegians, I hear they're still on a spree of rape and pillaging through Central Europe!

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134613)

I'm pretty sure that your "100 year plan" is propaganda, as there would be no reason to use so much english in it.

Furthermore the Muslims in those times were far more advanced and humane than the Christians of the same period, that included they way they conducted themselves in warfare.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134657)

Yes, both of you are correct, but I have baby girls. We see what horrors were committed when countries are conquered. Note that the 100 year plan is propaganda for both English speaking muslims and the people they plan to force conversion upon. Read up on the spread of Islam and what's happening now, in Europe, in Central Africa, in the archipelago. I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home. It worked remarkably adequately for us in the cold war, and I hope will happen the same way in the next too.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (4, Insightful)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134937)

I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home.

Yeah, by fighting in someone else's home, so their little girls get to experience it, instead.

Your little girl's security comes at the expense of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people, and not only that, but it perpetuates the terrorism that we're supposedly over there fighting in the first place. Simple logic and human nature dictates that losing your family in response to terrorist acts they had no part in [wikipedia.org] can do nothing but encourage the survivors to engage in terrorist acts themselves. If your little girls were killed by an occupying force, would you not retaliate with every fiber of your being? Yet we vilify the Iraqis (and Afghanis, and Vietnamese, and every other country we've occupied in the last 50+ years of proxy war we're involved in)? The vast majority of the people of this country would do the same fucking thing in their situation.

The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:

The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134979)

The USA fast food industry can do both at once!

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (3, Informative)

junepi (895930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134461)

Actually we can argue that a country can do without a military. Without even looking it up I know Costa Rica doesn't have one. Oh look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces [wikipedia.org] That said I wouldn't say for a minute that the US can do without their military but it has grown so far out of proportion to it's needs that has simply become ridiculous with them constantly having to invent reasons for its existance.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (2)

JimCanuck (2474366) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134723)


Look how many on that list are only capable of being on that list because either the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand have defense agreements with them.

They can afford not to have militaries because other people are responsible for their defense.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134497)

for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line.

Just like miners, construction workers, fishermen, hangliding instructors, etc. Someone will inevitably argue "nobody is actively trying to kill those guys", but the source of the risk doesn't matter. Getting crushed by a pile of rock, or blown up by a IED, is death on the job either way.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134545)

You racist fucker!

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135083)

You racist fucker!

You have just proved that you don't know what you are talking about. I am certainly not racially prejudiced, to be so I would have to be prejudiced against members of my own family. Many Muslim terrorists are white, I judge by actions and intentions not race.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (4, Insightful)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134597)

the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended.

Yeah because the army was formed on Sept 12th, 2001. Oh wait, what? Your argument is full of shit.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (2)

swillden (191260) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134807)

Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now

Do you seriously believe that? There is absolutely no way the terrorists ever had even the remotest hope of overthrowing our government. Your statement is one of the most ludicrous I've ever read on this whole topic -- and mountains of idiocy have been spouted.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134991)

ignorant apologists will be the end of us.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

Bomazi (1875554) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135045)

Because of course, all muslims are terrorists. Well played.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134349)

Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.

Woop Woop Woop! Troll alert!

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

dylan_- (1661) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134389)

but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now

How would that work? Say the USA decided that it couldn't afford a military anymore and basically just shut the whole thing down. In that hypothetical, what are the steps by which the USA would become an Islamic state?

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (3, Funny)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134449)

By fielding politicians who promises 40 virgins in the afterlife to whomever votes for the party line, and fear mongering about the gods destruction of our society if gays are allowed to marry, its only a slight variation on what our politicians currently vote for and people can still worship Jesus.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

0100010001010011 (652467) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134999)

> promises 40 virgins

Yeah, but then the Democrats and Republicans would be in deadlock over the gender of the virgins and if they needed summoning by a wide stance and foot tapping.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134475)

"Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives."

Are you serious? You were doing great until this sentence. Not only is it a ridiculous exaggeration (the fantasies of a few terrorist fanatics do not make a viable invasion force), but it's no better than any of the other the bigoted BS that generations of political leaders have used to start wars, whether we're talking ethnic, religious, racial, or some other silly excuse. After a couple of world wars, I thought we had moved on from that crap?

I too have a great deal of respect for people who join the military. I have very little respect for politicians or for the other people that use words of prejudice and misunderstanding to justify sending soldiers off to war. When there's a GOOD reason, when it is a necessity: yeah, send them. That's their job, and soldiers take their duty seriously. But as citizens in a democratic country, it is our duty to make decisions that are based on credible threats, not on paranoia and childish fears. It is our duty to make sure that the military is strategically focused where it matters, not squandering lives and money fruitlessly.

I don't know what propaganda you've been listening to -- the fantasies of fringe islamist fanatics or the ultra-right-wing anti-immigration wackos who generically think "Muslims are the enemy" -- but the fear you are describing is a recipe for politicians to manipulate people, not the justification for having a military or respecting the job they do.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134891)

Notice what's happening in central africa and europe. We're not super far from China+India v.s. the muslim world + South America. Look at the spread. Look at history.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134793)

That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. [...] warmongering is not something virtuous, nor is supporting those who warmonger with your life.

Congratulations, you have posted a typically self-contradictory comment and people have decided to comment on it as if it were serious. You win teh trollprize. That or you're really really dumb, but I doubt that's the case in this comment.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning (3, Informative)

rossdee (243626) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134333)

As far as I know Memorial day is only observed in the US of A.

Most of the rest of the allies commemorate the fallen of the wars on the 11th day of the 11th month (to mark the end of the first world war)
Except for those of us from down under who remember our fallen troops on ANZAC day (25th April) the anniversary of the Gallipoli landings

Re:At the going down of the sun and in the morning (4, Informative)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134463)

As far as I know Memorial day is only observed in the US of A.

True.

On the other hand, only the USA had the US Civil War, which is what Memorial Day commemorated, back in the day.

It only later became a generic "all our war dead" sort of holiday.

And, of course, we also observe Veteran's Day (11 NOV)....

Re:At the going down of the sun and in the morning (4, Insightful)

Deadstick (535032) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134789)

And, of course, we also observe Veteran's Day (11 NOV)....

Yeah, that's when teachers, mail carriers and DMV clerks get the day off but if you're only a veteran you have to go to work.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (5, Insightful)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134337)

Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military.

We drafted soldiers into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. Tens of thousands of them were killed, and many more were injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country. Subsequent military actions were staffed by men and women who volunteered to serve and protect our country. Thousands of them have been killed, and many more have been injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country.

I don't agree with all our government's policies regarding war, nation building, military spending, etc, but I can certainly distinguish between those in power that hatch these policies from those that fight, suffer and die because of them.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (-1, Offtopic)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134371)

So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?

Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?

Brainwashed!

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (4, Insightful)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134427)

So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?

They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.

Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?

Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.

Brainwashed!

Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134481)

I am all for protecting our allies, but Congress and the president has to have their children and grand children on the front line in the first wave of attacks.

No more of the rich assholes sending the poor to die for their desires. The rich fuckers need to put up their kids to die for any war first.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (4, Interesting)

TheLink (130905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134675)

And what if they don't have kids? Or don't care about their kids?

Here's my proposal: http://slashdot.org/~TheLink/journal/208853 [slashdot.org]

In the old days kings used to lead their soldiers into battle. In modern times this is impractical and counterproductive.

But you can still have leaders lead the frontline in spirit.

Basically, if leaders are going to send troops on an _offensive_ war/battle (not defensive war) there must be a referendum on the war.

If there are not enough votes for the war, those leaders get put on deathrow.

At a convenient time later, a referendum is held to redeem each leader. Leaders that do not get enough votes get executed. For example if too many people stay at home and don't bother voting - the leaders get executed.

If it turns out later that the war was justified, a fancy ceremony is held, and the executed leaders are awarded a purple heart or equivalent, and you have people say nice things about them, cry and that sort of thing.

If it turns out later that the leaders tricked the voters, a referendum can be held (need to get enough signatories to start such a referendum, just to prevent nutters from wasting everyone elses time).

This proposal has many advantages:
1) Even leaders who don't really care about those "young soldiers on the battlefield" will not consider starting a war lightly.
2) The soldiers will know that the leaders want a war enough to risk their own lives for it.
3) The soldiers will know that X% of the population want the war.
4) Those being attacked will know that X% of the attackers believe in the war - so they want a war, they get a war - for sufficiently high X, collateral damage becomes insignificant. They might even be justified in using WMD and other otherwise dubious tactics. If > 90% of the country attacking you want to kill you and your families, what is so wrong about you using WMD as long as it does not affect neighbouring countries?

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40135033)

Cute but while we're dreaming why cut yourself short. How about we just stop having wars all together or do people forget how these things start, I know yesterday is a long time in the internet world but 30+ children were masquerader in Syria.

Hate a president or not I seriously doubt you want to hing his life on the vote of the mob masses and how they feel about something they no longer remember.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1, Troll)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134565)

So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?

They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.

It had nothing to do with protecting our allies, it had to do with protecting our business interest, which communism was an ideological threat to. The citizens of Vietnam and Korea wanted communism, and just like many other countries we took it away from them, so that we could continue to reap the rewards of our influence.

Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?

Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.

Brainwashed!

What I'm pointing out is the brainwashing that occurs through the policies and practices of the government, that cause people to sacrifice their lives in order to spread suffering around the world,

Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.

In fact Immanuel Kant codified a logical deductive system for ethics, so things can in fact be black and white just as there is truth and not truth. Its moral relativism that allows people to perform the mental gymnastics, in order to satisfy their own cognitive needs to absolve themselves of guilt, and therefore justify committing horrible atrocities.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

WrongSizeGlass (838941) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134743)

I support our troops, though I don't support all of our government's policies or actions. Not everything is black and white no matter what you or Immanuel Kant says. Your right to define everything as good or bad, black or white, etc is as important as my right to disagree, though you would call be brainwashed for thinking there are shades of grey. From where I stand Immanuel Kant has done his share of brainwashing considering there are more facts and nuances to everything than he, you, or I will ever know or understand.

If you disagree so strongly with the practices and policies of the US then why don't you run for office, get elected and change them?

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134981)

I did run for office, and was arguably the most intelligent, and least funded of the candidates.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

craigminah (1885846) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134455)

Read a little history and you'll see this type of behavior (e.g. "stealing from others") occurs with regularity. If you don't like it then please leave but I guarantee every country out there is looking for ways to better its power, influence, quality of life, income, etc. Don't be so naive.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134499)

Its naive to think that its advantageous to steal more of the pie for yourself, and meanwhile destroy some or most of they pie in the process. Had so much of the capital not been destroyed or spent on warfare, and we allowed a more homogeneous development in the world, we would be less likely to be facing the present Malthusian catastrophe.

"The perception that your needs are the most important, is an illusion caused by the existence of your ego." - Buddhist text I once read somewhere

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134593)

So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?

For starters they inspired M*A*S*H, which kept Alan Alda off the streets.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134629)

While Vietnam was a puppet regime pretty much controlled by the spooks in the case of Korea it was actually a UN intervention and while the USA pretty much took over (our allies were still hurting from WWII and the last of the rationing had only ended in the UK a few years before) I'm sure the people of South Korea would tell you they are quite grateful that the UN stepped in and helped them. when you look at what a horrible place NK is compared to SK I find it awfully hard to say the Korean war was unjustified.

Oh and FYI but the lifestyle we live today is thanks to cheap credit and China's desire to become the manufacturing capital of the world, sorry to burst your bubble. One could argue the ME was over oil but even if there was no oil I believe there would still be conflict as the USA is allied with Israel and the majority of Muslim countries in the area have made it clear they will settle for nothing less than driving the Jews into the sea. Since most of America believes Israel has a right to exist regardless of whether there is oil there or not there would be battles over this issue and again FYI but most of America's oil comes from South America not the ME so if the ME dried up tomorrow there would still be conflict over Israel.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (3, Interesting)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134853)

You could argue that the situation in north korea as it is now, is only because it has to participate in asymmetrical warfare, including a cultural warfare as well. It takes idiotic cult personalities to lead people who are otherwise ignorant, especially when the powerful and thus educated people don't give a damn about you and want to keep you dumb and powerless. Thus the koreans generally did want to have a communist government, but the USA supported the japanese and their pawns, in order to put their own people in charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Korea_divided_.281945.E2.80.931949.29

China had its communist revolution, due in part because it was getting shafted by the colonial powers, in what was known as the "unequal treaties". Similarly the colonial powers were in control of the middle east, and have exerted control over the middle east for a long time, part of which is why israel exists to begin with. We created the environment for backwards uneducated militants to exist, by depriving the populace of a government that benefits them, and empowering ruthless dictators to rule. Just because our oil comes from SA, doesn't mean that ME isn't influential to the commodities market, and ignores that we originally controlled the ME oil production. We also did the same sort of colonialism in south america, ala banana republics, panama, contra's, cuba, etc, and its real easy for us to be creative and industrious, while slave labor was producing our food for us at home and abroad. The borders that were made in the middle east and Africa, were specifically designed to pit ethnic groups against each other, and just make up fake ethnicity in the case of tutsi's and hutu's

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (2)

aaarrrgggh (9205) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135193)

The problem with placing too much "honor" on the soldiers for their work is the vast majority go on to support the politicians that push the military agenda at the expense of sustainable policies.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134399)

This is Memorial Day (in the US), not Veterans Day. Memorial Day is for remembering service members killed in the line of duty.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (2, Insightful)

Eil (82413) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134687)

As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.

You don't even understand the thing that you're bashing. Memorial Day is about honoring those who died in battle, not everyone in the military. It doesn't much matter whether you agree with war, or the government, or the military, or whatever your favorite institutional boogeyman is, today is for those who volunteered to serve their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. If anything, this should be the peacenik's favorite holiday because it highlights and emphasises the real cost of war.

And then there's the irony of posting as an Anonymous Coward...

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134967)

If it was a peacenik's holiday, memorial day would recognize EVERYONE who died in war, not just the fools that rushed into it.

And it doesn't take much intellectual courage to toe the party line, in otherwords to continue to blindly support a flawed ideology, because you don't want to face cognitive dissonance.

if you want real courage, try looking at someone like Ghandi, Dalai Lama, Oskar Schindler, not a bunch of masochistic egomaniacs.

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (1)

argStyopa (232550) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134783)

Is it irony or coincidence that this was posted "anonymous coward"?

Re:As we move into Memorial Day and Americans reme (4, Interesting)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134895)

"Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military."

As a vet, I agree with that statement!

While it's nicer than being vilified, the truth is more complex.

Having entered service BEFORE the Bullshit Pump was turned on in it's most recent incarnation, I remember when being a "good Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman" was a compliment and there was no perceived need to call everyone a "hero".

If everyone is a "hero", the term loses all meaning. There are heroes, there are shitbags, and there are the great majority of Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen who get shit done pretty well.

War is a Racket! (2, Insightful)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134197)

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

Re:War is a Racket! (4, Informative)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134291)

Smedley Darlington Butler[1] (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940) was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, an outspoken critic of U.S. military adventurism, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.
During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I. By the end of his career, he had received 16 medals, five for heroism. He is one of 19 men to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only man to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

In his 1935 book War is a Racket, he described the workings of the military-industrial complex and, after retiring from service, became a popular speaker at meetings organized by veterans, pacifists and church groups in the 1930s.

In 1934, he became involved in a controversy known as the Business Plot when he told a congressional committee that a group of wealthy industrialists were planning a military coup to overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt. The purported plot would have had Butler leading a mass of armed veterans in a march on Washington. The individuals identified denied the existence of a plot, and the media ridiculed the allegations. The final report of the committee stated that there was evidence that such a plot existed, but no charges were ever filed. The opinion of most historians is that while planning for a coup was not very advanced, wild schemes were discussed.

Re:War is a Racket! (for half) (1)

ChucktheMan (1991030) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134703)

Even a general can be wrong, and Butler proves this. One can be drawn into a war at the will of an enemy, and defending the innocent and weak is always appropriate even if it requires the death of men who will not respect the value of the people they share space with. Butler was proven wrong by the Nazi. Sometimes you have to do something, and sometimes that something is unpleasant.

Re:War is a Racket! (for half) (2)

chill (34294) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135013)

Butler wasn't wrong in the general case, only in that specific one. He was speaking from experience gained by U.S. adventurism in Central and South America.

For every one "justifiable war" you can name, such as the defense of Europe from Nazism, I can name a dozen or more that fit Butler's description.

and they did it all without (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134247)

unions, a national labor relations board, and the threat of strikes or federal lawsuits

Re:and they did it all without (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134315)

unions, a national labor relations board, and the threat of strikes or federal lawsuits

Quite likely, you're utterly wrong.

Re:and they did it all without (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134759)

Are you kidding? From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] :

All the major unions grew stronger during the war. The government put pressure on employers to recognize unions to avoid the sort of turbulent struggles over union recognition of the 1930s, while unions were generally able to obtain maintenance of membership clauses, a form of union security, through arbitration and negotiation. Employers gave workers new untaxed benefits (such as vacation time, pensions and health insurance), which increased real incomes even when wage rates were frozen. The wage differential between higher skilled and less skilled workers narrowed, and with the enormous increase in overtime for blue collar wage workers (at time and a half pay), incomes in working class households shot up, while the salaried middle class lost ground.

THE ONLY GOOD JAP SHIP IS A SUNK JAP SHIP !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134331)

What were those Japs thinking !! Messing with the wrong people, Hirohito !!

25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134375)

Pretty crap statistics, seeing as the top 20 Kreigsmarine captains alone sank in excess of 1,700 ships.

Re:25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (3, Insightful)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134385)

I think they may have had a little more time to actually rack up that number,

Re:25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134465)

Their torpedoes also had a glaring flaw of not exploding half the time early on in the war (the detonator got crushed on impact) and it wasn't for a while until they tested and fixed the problem.

Re:25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134529)

The US navy seemed to have known about the issues but did very little before or at the start of the war.
They fixed their weapons systems by the end of the war :)

Re:25 subs managed 132 ships sunk (4, Informative)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135019)

That's only one class of US subs.

The U-Boat crews did a terrific job with what little they had, but they could stalk convoys from port-to-port and use Wolfpack tactics to concentrate force.

Some U-boats had superb commanders with, well huge cojones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Prien [wikipedia.org]

On the other hand, the collective US submarine effort was much MORE effective than the U-boats.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/pac-campaign.html [navy.mil]

""Bauxite imports fell off 88% just between the summer and fall of 1944. In 1945, pig iron imports plunged 89%, pulp 90%, raw cotton and wool 91%, fats and oils 92%, iron ore 95%, soda and cement 96%, lumber 98%, fodder 99%, and not one ounce of sugar or raw rubber reached Japan."(12)

Moreover, the reduction in imports of raw materials mirrored problems importing food. During 1944, average caloric intake fell 12% below the minimum daily requirement for the non-farming population.(13) The enormous drop in importation of raw materials resulted in a significant drop in Japanese industrial production. In fact, the Japanese mobilization committee stated in a late 1944 report: "Shipping lost or damaged since the beginning of the war amounts to two and one half times newly constructed shipping and formed the chief cause of the constant impoverishment of national strength."(14)

Submarine attacks on the oil flow to Japan were a second critical factor in destroying Japanese military potential. Japanese oil imports fell from 1.75 million barrels per month in August 1943 to 360,000 barrels per month in July 1944. In October 1944, imports fell even more due to high losses around the Philippine battlefields.(15) After September 1943, the ratio of petroleum successfully shipped from the southern regions that reached Japan never exceeded 28%, and during the last 15 months of the war the ratio only averaged 9%.(16) These losses are especially impressive when one considers that the Japanese Navy alone required 1.6 million barrels monthly to operate.(17) Much anecdotal evidence describes Japan's often desperate responses to the American guerre de course. For example, in early 1945, the Japanese Navy loaded crude oil barrels on battleships to import home, while at the same time the nation experimented with producing gasoline from potatoes.(18)"

"The war against Japanese SLOCs resulted in significant indirect effects on Japanese air strength. In fact, the reduction in Japan's air power strength was not so much due to the reduction of aircraft quality or production but due to the reduction in pilot quality. Fuel shortages substantially reduced pilot training.(25) In 1944, the great Japanese naval aviator Fuchida complained about the "inadequate training" aviators received prior to attachment to an operational unit.(26) Moreover, once Japanese pilots reached operational units, their training opportunities often did not improve. For example, prior to the Battle of the Philippine Sea, Admiral Toyoda stationed his carriers at Tawitawi near the Borneo oil supplies due to the effective submarine campaign against Japanese tankers. U.S. commanders vectored submarines into the area. Alerted to the danger, the Japanese commander refused to sortie for training- with the result that what little skills his undertrained pilots possessed atrophied.(27) The resulting Japanese aerial defeat became known as the Marinas Turkey Shoot."

"As previously discussed, 30% of total Japanese Navy losses were caused by U.S. submarines. Submarines played another important role in reducing IJN capabilities. Damage to ships, caused in part by submarines, significantly increased ship repair time in Japanese shipyards, thereby reducing opportunities for new construction. The Japanese Navy spent 12% of its construction budget on ship repairs in 1943 and 1944; the figure increased to 34% in 1945.(29) Additionally, the submarine campaign had two important second order effects on the Japanese Navy. First, the necessity to build merchant ships to replace losses resulted in a reduction of potential naval construction. Private shipyards devoted to naval construction fell from 44% of the total in 1942 to 30% in 1943.(30) Secondly, the requirement to build escort ships and naval transports (also to replace merchant losses) reduced the potential to build more powerful combatants. As a result, while the IJN used 14% of its construction budget for escorts and transports in 1941, the percentage shot up to 54.3% in 1944.(31) More astonishing, the need for escorts and merchants was so grave, that after 1943, the Japanese Navy started construction on no ship bigger than a destroyer!(32) Finally, the American stranglehold on imports, in this case, iron ore, proved fatal to any long term ability to build adequate numbers of warships to replace losses.(33) By September 1944, the Japanese had so little steel that naval construction fell precipitously.(34)"

"Throughout the war, munitions deliveries were 15% below front line needs, and 33 to 50% of all food sent to the front was lost due to attack or spoilage.(45) Accounts from front line units depict significant efforts to make up for lack of food deliveries by gardening, fishing, or bartering with natives with sporadic accounts of cannibalism in especially poorly supplied areas like New Guinea.(46)"

Food for though since our Cold War ASW assets are mostly gone and quiet diesel subs are available to many nations including Iran:

"It is interesting to contemplate to what degree the United States is vulnerable today to a campaign by a committed regional power or peer competitor against our sea lines of communications. Within the U.S. Navy today, one hears some discussion on the possible impact of submarine attacks against our Battlegroups, but few consider the impact a campaign against our vulnerable sealift train might have. Since America remains dependent today on sealift to project military power, an opponent might well assess this vulnerability worth exploiting."

Sad Submarine History (1)

N8F8 (4562) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134391)

The US could have easily been the supplier to the world for small coastal patrol and research diesel-electric subs but the US government has blocked such efforts.

Not surprising (1, Interesting)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134459)

Though the drug dealers and pirates are doing quite nicely with their own efforts, thank you. Cheap submarines are potentially as big a threat to world peace as nuclear weapons.

Re:Not surprising (1)

rich_hudds (1360617) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134607)

Really? What's your reasoning? Increased smuggling?

Re:Not surprising (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134649)

Because much of the flow of commerce and supply is done through the water, where submarines can effectively dominate with some ease. This is why one of the first places japan invaded during WW2 was malaysia, because the strait of malacca carried the bulk of the shipments coming across the pacific, otherwise you had to go around Australia, or risk running aground somewhere.

Re:Not surprising (1)

rich_hudds (1360617) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134691)

Err, so how do you go from that to 'as big a threat to world peace as nuclear weapons?'

Have you seem a modern port? You think you could do all that from some smugglers beach?

And you think these are a real threat? (2)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134971)

If so you are kidding yourself. Never mind them not being armed with any anti-ship weapons (which are rather complicated to design, manufacture, and make work), they aren't facing up against their real military counterparts. These little narco-boats are not being hunted by US Navy subs and ASW ships. They are just dealing with the DEA and coast guard.

Also they have a much easier job of staying undetected than an attack sub. When you are just trying to get from point a to point b, subs can be fairly sneaky. However when they launch an attack, everyone knows where they are when said attack happens.

If they tried to interdict merchant shipping lanes and sink ships, they'd quickly find out they are playing in a league they can't deal with. To give you an idea:

A narco sub is 40 to 80 feet in length, made of fiberglass, wood, and maybe steel, has a diesel engine, can go about 6 knots, has a range of maybe 2000nm and generally isn't fully submersible. One of the few found that was (found before its maiden voyage I might add) could go about 300 feet under water. No design optimization for silent operation, no sonar, no torpedoes, weapons are only whatever the 3-6 crew have.

Against that would be the Virgina class attack subs. 377 feet long, made of reenforced steel and classified composites. Has a nuclear engine with unlimited range, and diesel backup, and go "more than 25 knots" the government won't say what its actual max speed is. Likewise it has demonstrated a public test dive to 800 feet, real max depth classified. It carries 12 tomahawk missiles, and has 4 torpedo tubes that can fire Mark 48 torpedoes (it carries 26 total of them) or harpoon anti-ship missiles. It has the best passive and active sonar systems the US has ever made, all the capabilities are classified. It has been designed to be as silent as possible and is supposed to be as quiet underway as a Seawolf tied to a pier (already a very quiet sub).

You really think there's any comparison?

You have to remember for all the chatter of a "war on drugs" it is really just an ineffectual police action. When one of these narco subs gets spotted, the crew scuttles it so as to not get caught with anything. The coast guard then rescues the crew. They are just (semi) stealthy drug transports.

If they were being used to interdict and sink shipping traffic, there would be a REAL war and these things wouldn't be looked for so their crews could be taken in to custody, they'd be blown the fuck up. Wouldn't just be the US on their ass either, though they would be the biggest threat, merchant ships are flagged from nations all over the world, they'd all be out for blood if they were getting blown up.

Re:And you think these are a real threat? (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135029)

The point is that cheap submarines are a threat to world peace, as they could be loaded with explosives and lobbed at large cargo ships. There aren't enough US ships to protect all the cargo ships, and its part of the reason why iran's control of the strait of hormuz is so important, even without the fancy battleships.

Re:Not surprising (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134639)

Submarines are so easy to kill and better yet, offer plausible deniability. "What submarine?"

Re:Sad Submarine History (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135037)

No shit. One torpedo can destroy more equipment by sinking a ship than would be lost in a large land battle.

Coastal patrol is defensive, and marine interdiction/border control best done by surface vessels.

There being no reason besides amusement not to use ROVs for underwater research, I see no great benefit in propagating advanced manned sub tech.

So all we need is another war! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134403)

Nothing like a good old fashioned war to get the old fashioned economy going and to built the us vs them mentality thats paramount to such endeavors.

Re:So all we need is another war! (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135047)

Wars tend to be fought initially from stocks on hand, and there are no more "old fashioned wars" nor an old fashioned economy.

So in "modern money" (1)

Coeurderoy (717228) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134413)

It did cost approximatelly 1 to 3 Billion us$ to sink less than 150 boats or about 10 Million us$ per boat....
well somebody must have made it real good there...

Re:So in "modern money" (3, Interesting)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135105)

The impact(s) of sinking and damaging Japanese shipping were enormous!

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/pac-campaign.html [navy.mil]

"Disproportionate Costs Imposed on Japanese

I have attempted to roughly calculate costs of each side's effort in order to determine whether the U.S. campaign was "efficient." The cost of merchant ships and warships lost to U.S. submarine attack were calculated using actual Japanese prices and added to the cost of all Japanese ASW frigates and corvettes (but not fleet destroyers or ASW aircraft).(48) Using U.S. Navy figures I calculated the cost of the entire fleet of 288 U.S. submarines that served or were built during the war (regardless of whether they served in the Pacific). The result is impressive although not surprising: the Japanese spent at least 42 times more on anti-submarine warfare and in losses attributed to submarines than the U.S. spent on her Submarine Force. When one considers the fact that the Japanese economy was only 8.9% of the size of the U.S. economy in 1937, the submarine campaign was clearly both an extraordinarily cost efficient and effective means to employ U.S. forces against Japan.(49) Regardless of the cost effectiveness of the U.S. submarine campaign, the military effects were stunningly clear. Fully a year before the end of the war, and before the extensive bombing of mainland Japan, the war against Japanese lines of communication resulted in decisive impact on the Japanese war economy and on the Japanese military logistical system. "

Pardon my ignorance (4, Informative)

Kinthelt (96845) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134495)

But wouldn't building submarines in the great lakes be a violation of the Rush-Bagot treaty?

Re:Pardon my ignorance (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134569)

If you're gonna go that far, then I suppose helping Britain would be high treason.

Re:Pardon my ignorance (3, Informative)

Lev13than (581686) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134949)

But wouldn't building submarines in the great lakes be a violation of the Rush-Bagot treaty?

http://www.aandc.org/research/rush-bagot_agreement.html [aandc.org]

They swapped diplomatic notes a few times during the war, which were essentially waivers on the treaty to support the war effort.

Re:Pardon my ignorance (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135141)

"Building" /= "maintaining".

Highly recommend USS Cobia tour in Manitowoc, WI (4, Informative)

DrDitto (962751) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134559)

I've been on a lot of tours of WWII vessels-- everything from the USS Arizona in Hawaii to the USS North Carolina in North Carolina to the submarine exhibit at the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany. I have to say the very best tour I've done was the USS Cobia sub tour in Manitowoc, WI. http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/ [wisconsinmaritime.org] The tour was given by an old WWII submariner (yes, he was old!). It was a far better experience than any other sub exhibit. The sub is in the water and it is quite the feeling to go beneath the water line of a WWII sub. If you are ever in the area, I highly recommend it! Granted that was 12 years ago and nowadays the old tour guides may have either passed or are too feeble...

Another Memorial Day (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134575)

Over 4,600 American military people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Over 130,000 civilians have been killed so far there, too.
When and where is their Memorial Day?

Re:Another Memorial Day (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40134695)

When and where is their Memorial Day?

They don't need one. I'm sure they can remember their losses every day. If they get close to forgetting the US military will send another drone or bomb to remind them.

id hate to echo the (4, Interesting)

nimbius (983462) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134653)

cynisism in this thread but its true. Memorial Day has been perverted by the government over time to enforce blind patriotic obedience. A sizeable number of service members have come home missing limbs, or rocked by bomb blasts to the full scale IQ of about 85. No one can remember what it was we fought for in iraq, and if they can they dont feel very accomplished or proud about it unless they were told to by a superior officer. We finally accomplished the goal of killing a "six foot tall diabetic" in afghanistan and whle that was supposed to usher in the end of the war on terror; it didnt. We have warrantless searches near borders, warrantless wiretaps, and we cant get on a plane or train without a physically degrading pat down or full-body x-ray that has begun to show potential as a cancer suspect agent. Our country beats a war drum every four years like clockwork, and every four years we're lulled into a state of cringing terror as the next theatre is prepared. we havent anything to commemorate today but the striking effectiveness by which private think tanks and policy centers incense us in favour of war.

On the other spectrum we have private corporations that are trying their goddamned best to make sure you forget the consequences of war like economic depression, poverty, mental illness, death, and the never ending destruction of the constitutional rights by which every american lives freely. So long as you buy your budweiser and 1200 pack of hamburgers from walmart, and dont forget to let the kids wash down their potato chips and hot dogs with a 2 liter of your favorite black bubbly sodapop, most multinational corporations will openly and warmly continue gifting you an alternate reality from that of americas recent wars from viet-nam onward. its one of flags and fireworks, proud bipedal service members and smiling families celebrating whatever the exact opposite of this holiday commemorates.

The only way to see exactly what this holiday is commemorating is to put down the remote, pull yourself off the couch and drive down to the VA hospital. I firmly believe if every american made the trip once, just once, then the next president to even mutter a sentiment about potentially starting war would find himself amidst impeachment.

Re:id hate to echo the (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134943)

Blame the boomers, they took control of the country from their parents, and punted.

Re:id hate to echo the (1)

starworks5 (139327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40135199)

Sure they were complicit through their consent, but their consent was engineered by the ruling class, the same ones who were killing and plundering previously. There were thinkers back from the founding fathers era, who realized that we had virgin land and it was a goose to lay golden eggs, and we could use it to cast the world in our image. They got their playbook from the last great christian empire (the roman empire), including the currency domination, plunder economy, propaganda, and lastly "bread and circuses".

Manitowoc Subs (2)

jjbenz (581536) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134717)

This story hits close to home since I grew up 25 miles from Manitowoc and my dad grew up there. He's told me stories about how his parents would take him down to see the shipyard side launch the subs into the river. They also have a pretty nice maritime museum in Manitowoc (http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/index.php).

Shipyard tasking for the 21st century (1)

ChucktheMan (1991030) | more than 2 years ago | (#40134795)

We have the plans for the Enterprise. Maybe Manitowoc can build 10 of those.

Is it just me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40135073)

or is Rear Admiral a really unfortunate-sounding rank to have?

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