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345 comments

Why would it need studies? (-1, Troll)

Juiskak (2649847) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139815)

These are really common sense problems with open street databases. Everyone can edit anything and they are often built using unreliable hardware and software. Like TomTom notes, this can lead to serious problems. Imagine if some of those 'self-driving cars' would use them.

Don't get me wrong, Open Street Map is good. But these problems seem obvious. In some places, like where I live Open Street Maps works better than Google Maps. However, Bing Maps is the best one of them with most information and best UI.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Interesting)

rolfwind (528248) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139841)

Imagine if some of those 'self-driving cars' would use them.

I would hope a self-driving cars use data from it's immediate surroundings to make decisions and just use a GPS as a navigational device that can be overridden by irl factors on the ground. It wouldn't even have to be sabotage that overrides a gps, just your avg Cop/Fireman blocking off a street temporarily.

IMO, people are bigger dangers. Especially in a situation like where faulty data will lead a GPS will tell them to turn the wrong way on a one way street and they don't really check. I have a friend that obeys the things blindly. I know the GPS is screwing up and using a route that may look good on paper but is utterly long irl compared to some shortcuts the locals know. But no, she never listens. The GPS says so and it must be followed. She's the type to veer into oncoming traffic on a one way street if, fate forbid, her GPS screw up majorly one day.

Re:Why would it need studies? (2, Informative)

Juiskak (2649847) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139877)

The funny thing is, Google tried to sabotage Open Street maps (like the article notes):

TomTom is clearly referring to the case where OpenStreetMap caught Google contractors vandalising OSM.

Re:Why would it need studies? (-1, Troll)

mvwdlee (2649939) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140057)

A few weeks ago, I foolishly ran a strange executable file that one of my acquaintances sent me by email. As someone who doesn't know much about computers, at the time, I thought nothing of it. "Why would my acquaintance want to hurt me?" Following this line of thought, I ran the file without question.

How naive I was. Despite having what was supposedly the best anti-virus software out right then, a virus took over my computer and held it hostage. It was pretending to be a warning from Windows telling me to buy some strange anti-virus software I'd never heard of from a company I'd never heard of to remove the virus.

This immediately set alarm bells off in my head. "How could this happen? My anti-virus is supposed to be second to none!" Faced with this harsh reality, I decided to take it to a PC repair shop for repair. They gladly accepted the job, told me it'd be fixed in a few days, and sent me off with a smile.

A few days later, they called me and told me to come pick up my computer. At the time, I noticed that they sounded like whimpering animals, but I concluded that it must just be stress from work. When I arrived, they, with tears in their eyes, told me that the virus was so awful and merciless that they were unable to remove it. "Ah," I thought. "That must be why they sounded so frustrated and pathetic over the phone. Their failure must have truly ruined their pride as professionals." I later found out that two of them had committed suicide.

After returning home, I tried to fix it myself (despite the fact that even the professionals couldn't do it). After about a day or so, I was losing my very mind. I stopped going to work, stopped eating, was depressed, and I would very frequently throw my precious belongings across the room and break them; that is how bad this virus was.

That's when it happened: I found MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] ! I installed MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] , ran a scan, and let it remove all the viruses! They were removed in precisely 2.892 seconds. Wow! Such a thing! I can't even believe this as such never before! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] is outstanding! My computer is running faster than ever! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] came through with flying colors where no one else could!

MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] totally cleaned up my system, and increased my speed! If you're having computer problems, or even if you aren't having any obvious problems, I recommend that you use MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] . As a user, it did more for me that any so-called "professional." It'll even boost your PC & internet speed!

MyCleanPC: For a Cleaner, Safer PC. [mycleanpc.com]

Re:Why would it need studies? (-1, Offtopic)

Trracer (210292) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140105)

A few weeks ago, I foolishly ran a strange executable file that one of my acquaintances sent me by email. As someone who doesn't know much about computers, at the time, I thought nothing of it. "Why would my acquaintance want to hurt me?" Following this line of thought, I ran the file without question.

How naive I was. Despite having what was supposedly the best anti-virus software out right then, a virus took over my computer and held it hostage. It was pretending to be a warning from Windows telling me to buy some strange anti-virus software I'd never heard of from a company I'd never heard of to remove the virus.

This immediately set alarm bells off in my head. "How could this happen? My anti-virus is supposed to be second to none!" Faced with this harsh reality, I decided to take it to a PC repair shop for repair. They gladly accepted the job, told me it'd be fixed in a few days, and sent me off with a smile.

A few days later, they called me and told me to come pick up my computer. At the time, I noticed that they sounded like whimpering animals, but I concluded that it must just be stress from work. When I arrived, they, with tears in their eyes, told me that the virus was so awful and merciless that they were unable to remove it. "Ah," I thought. "That must be why they sounded so frustrated and pathetic over the phone. Their failure must have truly ruined their pride as professionals." I later found out that two of them had committed suicide.

After returning home, I tried to fix it myself (despite the fact that even the professionals couldn't do it). After about a day or so, I was losing my very mind. I stopped going to work, stopped eating, was depressed, and I would very frequently throw my precious belongings across the room and break them; that is how bad this virus was.

That's when it happened: I found MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] ! I installed MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] , ran a scan, and let it remove all the viruses! They were removed in precisely 2.892 seconds. Wow! Such a thing! I can't even believe this as such never before! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] is outstanding! My computer is running faster than ever! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] came through with flying colors where no one else could!

MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] totally cleaned up my system, and increased my speed! If you're having computer problems, or even if you aren't having any obvious problems, I recommend that you use MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] . As a user, it did more for me that any so-called "professional." It'll even boost your PC & internet speed!

MyCleanPC: For a Cleaner, Safer PC. [mycleanpc.com]

Mod parent down, this crap does not belong on slashdot.

Re:Why would it need studies? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140141)

Mod parent down, don't quote that crap.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139889)

But no, she never listens.

My GPS nav also is a "she"!

Re:Why would it need studies? (4, Insightful)

makomk (752139) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139849)

They may be "built using unreliable hardware and software", but expensive commercial maps are apparently often pretty badly wrong - including "dangerous" things like mislabelled one-way streets, roads that head into lakes, and other errors that could cause serious accidents, many of them unfixed for years!

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Interesting)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139931)

I wonder how they handle winter roads, like one can find in the northern part of Scandinavia.

This are routes that are open only in winter when the lakes are frozen, and provide very convenient routes and shortcuts. In summer however they are closed for obvious reasons.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Funny)

Coisiche (2000870) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140169)

Just out of interest, are the fjords and other bodies of water littered with the sunken remains of vehicles driven by those who forgot to switch their GPS to summer mode?

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Deus.1.01 (946808) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140403)

Norway does not host bad reality docus...ffs!

Re:Why would it need studies? (4, Interesting)

IAmGarethAdams (990037) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139949)

TomTom itself will direct you to a point about half a mile away from my house (in the middle of a large town) if you put my postcode into some of its GPS devices.

That's caused problems both for friends and takeaway delivery drivers :(

Re:Why would it need studies? (2)

iviv66 (1146639) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140143)

TomTom itself will direct you to a point about half a mile away from my house (in the middle of a large town) if you put my postcode into some of its GPS devices.

That's caused problems both for friends and takeaway delivery drivers :(

Isn't that what a post code is, though? They are only useful for narrowing a search down to a certain area, that's why addresses also include road names and numbers.

Re:Why would it need studies? (0)

djl4570 (801529) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140187)

The original five digit Zip codes identified a geographic area usually served by a single post office. Zip-9 should resolve to a specific address. I suspect that the GP post refers to a non US address that uses a postcode comparable to Zip-9 to identify a unique location.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

makomk (752139) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140201)

UK postcodes generally identify a particular street, or even a particular section of a street if it's particularly long or has a large number of houses.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Gordonjcp (186804) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140397)

For a while I lived in a 17-storey tower block that had four postcodes. Each postcode covered four floors, or five for the top floors.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Insightful)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139955)

The problem with open maps is that too many can edit them.
The problem with closed maps is that too few can edit them.

Re:Why would it need studies? (-1, Offtopic)

mvvvdlee (2649927) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140043)

About eight months ago, I was searching around the internet to find out why my computer was running so slowly (it normally ran quite fast, but had gradually gotten slower over time). After a few minutes, I found a piece of software claiming that it could speed up my PC and make it run like new again. Being that I was dangerously ignorant about technology in general (even more so than I am now), I downloaded the software and began the installation. Mere moments after doing so, my desktop background image was changed and warnings that appeared to originate from Windows appeared all over the screen telling me to buy strange software from an unknown company in order to remove a virus it claimed I had.

I may have been ignorant about technology, but I wasn't that naive. I immediately concluded that the software I'd downloaded was, in fact, a virus. In my rage, I broke numerous objects, punched a hole in the wall, and cursed the world at the top of my lungs. I eventually calmed down, cleared my head, and realized that the only remedy for this problem was a carefully thought out plan. After a few moments of pondering about how to handle this situation, I decided that since I barely knew how to properly handle a computer, I should turn it over to the professionals and let them fix the issue.

Soon after making the decision, I drove to a local computer repair shop and entered the building with my computer in hand. They greeted me with a smile and stayed attentive the entire time that I was explaining the problem to them. They laughed as if they'd heard it all before, told me that I'm not the only one who has trouble operating computers, and then gave me a date for when the computer would be fixed. Not only had they told me that the computer would be completely repaired in at most two days, but the price for their services was surprisingly low, and to top it all off, they even gave me advice for how to avoid viruses in the future! I left the building feeling confident in my decision to seek professional help and satisfied knowing that such kind-hearted people were the ones doing the job.

The very next day, I received a phone call from the computer repair shop whilst I was at a local library researching computer viruses. I had stumbled upon a piece of software that appeared to be very promising, and I was about to do more research on it, but seeing as how I required my computer as soon as possible, I decided to put the matter on hold. Upon answering the phone and cheerfully greeting the person on the other end, I was greeted with a high-pitched shriek. Startled, I asked what was wrong. A few moments passed where nothing was said, and suddenly, the person on the other end said to me, in a low voice oozing with paranoia, "Come pick up your computer." They hung up immediately after saying that, and I couldn't help but notice that they sounded as if they were on the verge of tears. I briefly wondered if it was due to stress from work, and then drove to the computer repair shop to acquire my computer.

I was positively dismayed upon entering the building. The inside of the computer repair shop looked nothing like the image from my memories. There were broken computer parts scattered throughout the room, ceiling tiles all over the floor, blood splattered in every direction I looked, and even a human toe on the ground. After processing this disturbing information, I began panicking and frantically looking around for my computer. I spotted an employee covered in blood sitting up against the wall, and noticed that his wrists had been slashed open. Thinking quickly, I ran up to him, grabbed him by the collar of his shirt, shook him around, and began screaming, "Where is it!? Where is my computer!?" After a moment of silence, he passed away, completely shattering my expectations. Such a thing! "What a meaningless individual," I thought.

Enraged, I tore the building up even further than it already had been in my desperate search for my computer. Eventually I discovered a door leading to an area that was normally only accessible to employees. I entered without hesitation and was met with a long, skinny hallway that a single person would have trouble moving about freely in. I proceeded down the dark hallway and bumped into the body of an employee hanging from a rope tied to something on the ceiling. I screamed, "Not only do you people have the gall to allow my computer to be endangered, but even in death you intend to block my path!?" After finally managing to push aside the worthless obstacle, I traveled down the hallway and came to a small black door. I entered without a moment's notice, and in the middle of the dark and dreary room, I spotted my computer; it was completely unharmed. With a sigh of relief, I picked it up, left the building, and drove home as if nothing of importance had occurred there.

Upon returning home and hooking up the computer (whilst wearing a cheerful expression the entire time), I, to my horror, discovered that the computer hadn't been repaired. There was nothing in the world that could have contained my fiery anger at that point. I broke almost every single one of my possessions, smashed all the windows on my house, physically abused my family, and then drove back to the computer repair shop to defile the dead lumps of meat that had failed to carry out the task I had given them. After realizing that I shouldn't be meaninglessly wasting my time with such worthless pieces of trash, I remembered the piece of software that I'd discovered earlier. With renewed confidence, I blissfully visited the local library, downloaded the software, and took it home to install on my computer.

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I was absolutely in awe of MyCleanPC's [mycleanpc.com] wonderfully efficient performance. Without a single issue, MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] utterly annihilated in moments the virus that many others had failed to remove after hours of attempts. I let out a victory cry and swore to never turn to any "professionals" to fix my computer ever again. Once again, I was able to predict the future. I knew that I would never need any worthless "professionals" again as long as I had MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] by my side.

MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] is outstanding! My computer is running faster than ever! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] came through with flying colors where no one else could! MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] totally cleaned up my system, and increased my speed! I couldn't believe how much overclocking my gigabits and speed were doing! Even restructuring the BIOS wouldn't allow for the miraculously high degrees of efficiency that MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] allowed me to attain.

I highly and wholeheartedly recommend that you use MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] if you're having any computer troubles whatsoever. In fact, even if you're not having any visible problems, I still recommend that you use MyCleanPC. [mycleanpc.com] There could be dormant or hidden viruses on your system, or problems that MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] could easily and efficiently resolve. Just by using MyCleanPC, [mycleanpc.com] your gigabits will be running at maximum efficiency, and at last, you'll be overclocking with the rest of us! What are you waiting for!? Get MyCleanPC [mycleanpc.com] today!

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Re:Why would it need studies? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140089)

http://snipurl.com/23przav

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140379)

The problem with open maps is that too many can edit them.
The problem with closed maps is that too few can edit them.

TomToms problem with open maps is that they can't charge for them, and they compete with their product. This is just marketing BS AKA lies.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140009)

In addition to your very good point some of the commercial maps (used to?) deliberately add mistakes to their maps as a test that they can use to see if anyone is copying them.

ye ye - I know [citation needed], don't feel like it

Re:Why would it need studies? (4, Insightful)

hankwang (413283) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139855)

"In some places, like where I live ... However, Bing Maps is the best one of them with most information"

And where is that place where you live? Sorry, I get suspicious if a newish user account promotes Bing like that.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Insightful)

cheaphomemadeacid (881971) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139935)

Yeah, we really really really need a new moderator option, -1 marketdrone

Re:Why would it need studies? (4, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140001)

"In some places, like where I live ... However, Bing Maps is the best one of them with most information"

Yeah, we really really really need a new moderator option, -1 marketdrone

I hate to say it but GP is telling the truth in the case of the UK, especially when it comes to walking trails. Look at this bing map view of a nearby valley [binged.it] . It clearly shows footpaths, contours, wooded areas, etc, you can see where to walk and how difficult the terrain will be. On the other hand the google map view [goo.gl] of the same area shows the valley as a blank! I certainly find bing much better for hiking route planning, in fact I would go as far as to say its impossible on google.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

micheas (231635) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140103)

The details of your post make your statement of bing being better for hiking a useful post.

The Grandparents post is devoid of any information and merely contains opinion. (which may or may not be correct.)

Re:Why would it need studies? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140163)

So why is this post modded up? http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2879609&cid=40139899 [slashdot.org]

It contains no information to verify the commenter's claims? Why aren't you complaining there?

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

CubicleView (910143) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140317)

One obvious difference between the two is 2234483, but then you don't really care since you're probably just trolling anyway.

Re:Why would it need studies? (3, Informative)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140217)

Bing maps nowadays are nothing but a front end for navteq's maps. As a result, they have very detailed maps as navteq is one of the biggest mapping companies around.

Bing maps became navteq maps after the deal with nokia where MS was forced to adopt some nokia tech for a fee to show nokia it was serious about the long term.

Google maps are not really comparable. They're significantly worse because google isn't a mapping company that existed for a long time.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140363)

Bing maps nowadays are nothing but a front end for navteq's maps.

In the UK for these detailed views they use Ordinance Survey maps

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Insightful)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140439)

Navteq uses...

Navteq is the company that provides maps and mapping services. When you hear names like "tomtom", "garmin" and so on, these companies do not actually provide maps. They provide UI shells and minor map modifications but licence actual maps either from navteq or tele atlas (two biggest providers of mapping data in the world). Navteq and tele atlas in turn get their maps from their cartographers, one of whom you just mentioned.

Re:Why would it need studies? (2)

cardpuncher (713057) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140219)

That's simply because they've specifically chosen to make available data from the Ordnance Survey. You can get the same maps on your own non-commercial website free if you want them (http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/web-services/os-openspace/api/index.html) or also see them on the OS website (http://www.getamap.ordnancesurveyleisure.co.uk/).

Ironically, the "getamap" website requires Microsoft Silverlight, whereas Bing doesn't.

Re:Why would it need studies? (5, Interesting)

The Slashdot 8Ball (1491493) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140257)

I was quite surprised that Google wouldn't be interested in getting the Ordnance Survey maps so I did a little digging: From the Ordnance Survey Blog [ordnancesurvey.co.uk] :

The reality is that the problem has never been with Ordnance Survey, but with the terms and conditions of Google Maps. It has absolutely nothing to do with derived data or our licensing terms but everything to do with Google claiming the right to use any data you display in Google Maps in any way it sees fit, even if it doesn’t belong to them.

Frustratingly, this is only a problem that exists with Google Maps. No such clause appears in the terms of any other mapping API, including Bing Maps and our own OS OpenSpace.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140255)

The same area on openStreetMap shows an odd hodgepodge of detail [openstreetmap.org] with some trails showing in disconnected parts.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Richard Fairhurst (900015) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140477)

Yep. It's a work-in-progress; if you know the local paths, go in and add them to the map!

But it's worth noting that partial coverage of rural footpaths is a lot more than TomTom ever has. ;)

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Sowelu (713889) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140391)

Actually, I have to +1 for Bing here. I spend a fair amount of time geohashing, and Bing does a MUCH better job of handling the questionable little roads out in the middle of nowhere that may or may not be publicly accessible. Google Maps has led me to a lot of gated-off forest roads that Bing Maps correctly does not show.

Re:Why would it need studies? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139873)

Nice tip for Bing the same minute that the article was posted. Shill of not, that's bad slashdot swag, man.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

dredwerker (757816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139915)

Nice tip for Bing the same minute that the article was posted. Shill of not, that's bad slashdot swag, man.

I thought the same thing but I would have expected better English. It was also a bit of a convoluted argument to get to "Bing is great" don't use TomTom or OSM.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140197)

Bing is great don't use OSM doesn't even make sense as an argument, since Bing uses an OSM layer and permits the OSM project to trace its aerial photographs to generate more detailed maps.

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139881)

Everyone can edit anything and they are often built using unreliable hardware and software... this can lead to serious problems. Imagine if some of those 'self-driving cars' would use them

There you go, jumping from one assumption to another !

While the open-map itself might not be 100% accurate, how sure are you that the map from Tom-Tom is?

And about those "Self-Driving Cars" - if those cars got into accident due to errors in Tom-Tom's map, then what?

Re:Why would it need studies? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140149)

The same reason sane people quote actual authors with actual degrees and actual list of previous publications and not Wikipedia.

Re:Why would it need studies? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140291)

Why is this comment labelled a troll? It points out some potential problems but supports the concept. Geez slashdot!

Re:Why would it need studies? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140535)

You never owned anything based on NavTeq maps have you.

Navteq map databases are the WORST in the world. bad data, really out of date roads, missing roads that have existed for decades.
It's why the OEM Gps systems in many cars and bikes is a complete piece of crap.

The databases used by garmin and the others is based on the US Census data. And TomTom is whiny because the open guys can use the same database.

Anyone can build a tomtom for 1/3rd the price of their over priced stuff. And honestly, they have fallen way behind, even the china knockoffs have a better UI than tomtom has now.

We're better because we do the same thing! (5, Insightful)

mpoulton (689851) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139835)

FTFA: "We harness the local knowledge of our 60 million satnav customers, who can make corrections through TomTom Map Share." So... open mapping projects are worse than their closed mapping product because their closed mapping product is collaboratively edited by the users... Nice argument.

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (1)

dredwerker (757816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139847)

FTFA: "We harness the local knowledge of our 60 million satnav customers, who can make corrections through TomTom Map Share." So... open mapping projects are worse than their closed mapping product because their closed mapping product is collaboratively edited by the users... Nice argument.

Absolutely, and surely TomTom and openstreetmaps have some method of sorting out the rubbish that comes in. i.e. multiple entries checked against each other and any ones outside the norm are thrown out.

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (2)

wvmarle (1070040) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139901)

I don't know how TomTom is vetting their user-supplied corrections (if at all).

In case of OSM however anyone can add anything to the map, and it's published right away. I have contributed various hiking trails to their map, and they became available on the online maps instantly (only delay is caused by their tile rendering). I have not tried to e.g. wipe a motorway or so just to see what happens, but it seems that is possible.

Like Wikipedia, a full history is kept of all parts of the map, so any removals can be undone easily by other users, and there is a basic tracking of who (by user ID, which is not verified against or linked to a real-world identity) has made which change.

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (5, Informative)

Richard Fairhurst (900015) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140085)

Essentially OSM works on the principle of "with enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow". There are cases of vandalism in OSM, but they don't last very long; the community usually picks them up rapidly and reverts them.

We have one advantage over Wikipedia in that it's easier for us to determine what's right. On Wikipedia, if one contributor says "John Doe's contribution to scholarship was important" and another says "no it wasn't", you get an edit war. On OSM, if one mapper says "this road is called Market Street" and another says "this road is called Market Road", we just go and look at the street sign. The rule is "what's on the ground". (The one place where this breaks down is disputed territorial borders, such as Northern Cyprus and Kashmir, but there are procedures in place for that.)

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (3, Interesting)

marauder (30027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140177)

In my experience TomTom vets its Map Share corrections by just not approving them. As one f'rinstance, it took 3 years for them to correct an illegal turn on two very busy roads in Sydney, despite me and presumably umpteen others reporting it every damn time. A new bridge near my work took over a year to feature on their maps. So I guess you should say that their vetted corrections are 100% accurate.

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139911)

because using user sourced data in combination with private mapping data, is the same.

because OSM is a for profit with tons of jobs on the line if their product is terrible.

Nice argument.

Re:We're better because we do the same thing! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140033)

because OSM is a for profit with tons of jobs on the line if their product is terrible.

Yes, and everything a company does is 100% perfect. That's why no for-profit company in history has ever made a bad decision!

Greetings, Slashdot. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139837)

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Who cares, except Captain Obvious? (5, Insightful)

siddesu (698447) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139853)

The motives are obvious, the critique is not very specific, everyone who is using OSM does realize their limitations, and anyone who is using mapping software and gets in trouble because they prioritize the mapping data over what they can see with their own eyes should not be on the road anyway.

Too bad for Tomtom, but they stopped to be relevant quite a few years ago.

No kidding (5, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139937)

They should worry more about Google maps/navigation. You get a smartphone with that on it, and suddenly a Tomtom doesn't seem like a good buy anymore. My mom has a Tomtom because she could practically get lost driving on a straight road, and it has worked well. However it has nothing on my smartphone with Google on it. Reason is that the smartphone can (and does) fetch map data in realtime. I don't have to remember to load maps for where I'm going and they'll be as up to date as Google has at the moment.

In terms of other features like plotting a route talking you through things and so on they both work fine.

That's their real threat. Anyone who has a newish Android smartphone already has this, and I have to presume it is available on all other platforms. It's free and it works well. You don't have to remember to bring anything with you, other than your phone which you probably already have. Heck even if you don't have the app you can download it in the field.

Between that and cars with built in nav systems, I can't see them having a market for much longer. Stand alone GPS units are going to be the kind of things that hikers use, if you are on a roadway your car, phone, or both will already have you covered.

Offline maps still vital (4, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139957)

Reason is that the smartphone can (and does) fetch map data in realtime.

Yes it does, which is great right up until you are in an area with really poor data.

On any smartphone I will always have at least one offline mapping app, so that I can find things around me (or how to get out) even if data connections fail.

You can alleviate that to some degree with caching (which Google Maps does) but it still doesn't help if you want to search for something new or run into an area the caching did not anticipate.

Re:Offline maps still vital (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140259)

Nokia owns one of the biggest mapping companies around, navteq. It has navtec maps with lifetime free upgrades in some really cheap older smartphones, for example nokia 5230. That's full offline maps of entire world with free lifetime upgrades as well as walk and drive tun by turn voiced navigation. You can get that phone used for a couple of dosen EUR nowadays, and it usually comes with a car stand to boot. Then you just set it up and use it as a navigator. Way cheaper then dedicated tomtom navigator, and you don't need to pay anything for maps/map updates like you have with tomtom.

My only complaint with the damn thing is that it's pretty clear that GPS chipset is cheap. Initial lock on takes minutes if you don't use A-GPS and go with internal GPS antenna only.

Re:Offline maps still vital (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140345)

On any smartphone I will always have at least one offline mapping app, so that I can find things around me (or how to get out) even if data connections fail.

What do you do if it's cloudy out and you run out of electricity? Besides the gyro-compass and communication features a smartphone makes for terrible survival gear.

I keep a laminated map next to my towel and homing pigeon, it makes great umbrella, the towel needs no explanation, and if I'd rather stay in than get out, I've got a meal.

Re:Offline maps still vital (2)

siddesu (698447) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140409)

There are a ton of apps that do navigation and support offline maps, including OSM. I've been using one paid (Locus, Android) and one or two free ones (Androad being the best, obviously Android) with no issues at all. I admit that OSM is prety bad in poorer countries, but in the "developed" world and most of the former socialist countries, OSM is at least as good as any other offline map, and sometimes much better.

Re:Offline maps still vital (2)

Calos (2281322) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140437)

Maps on Android doesn't fetch data just in time, it caches ahead a little ways. You can also specifically tell it to pre-cache whatever section of map you like ahead of time.

I find it doesn't matter anyway, because the places were you find you've know data are usually the same areas that you don't need detailed instructions in - e.g., highways through rural areas. And it doesn't matter, because it will still have the instructions to get to get off on to a different highway.

I've driven all around the east (mountains of WV suck for coverage, esp. data), the midwest, and out to the west coast (Wyoming doesn't have good coverage either), and it's never once affected me.

Re:No kidding (4, Insightful)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139963)

Sometimes it is useful to have a local copy of a map with you, incase you are in an area with no cell coverage or a foreign country where roaming charges would make using online maps uneconomical.

Re:No kidding (3, Interesting)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140223)

Actually this is where osmand app (based on openstreetmap) comes in. You dont have to be connected, and is very user friendly in terms of downloading & updating maps. An android phone with Google Maps Navigation and osmand app, is way better than a TomTom.

Re:No kidding (2)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140229)

This is also possible with a modern phone. I have a cheap Android phone (HTC Desire - nice phone, but apparently 'obsolete' when I got it) running OSMAnd. It lets me download OSM vector maps, so I currently have England, Wales, Belgium, and northern France on it (taking about 1GB of my 16GB SD card). The offline routing is still considered experimental. It works reasonably well, but on longer journeys it can run out of memory. It was great when I moved here - I'd set the destination and leave it in my pocket telling me when to turn as I cycled around and got to know my way.

Re:No kidding (0)

dunkelfalke (91624) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140461)

Modern?
Dude, that was possible with a Windows Mobile phone from 2002. And with Treo phones before that.

Which isn't Tomtom's market (2)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140385)

I'm not trying to say that smartphone navigation will take over the world. I knew a bunch of people would respond ascribing me that position right after I posted but oh well. I'm saying that it will take over Tomtom's market.

The Tomtom isn't a device that hikers, surveyors, etc buy. It something you buy to get GPS in your car. It is designed around the idea of car sat nav. Well guess what? When you are sticking to city streets, cell coverage is usually pretty good. Even if it drops for a second, it'll pick back up fast enough. No problems there.

In terms of foreign travel, again not the market for a Tomtom. People don't tend to pack these things along to then put in their rental car (presuming they even elect to get a rental car) because you can get one with the car, that has all the maps (Tomtom charges for maps).

Like I said: Their market is car sat nav. They aren't like Garmin who are targeting people who go off the beaten path (literally). The market they are in is the market where Google Nav works great.

OSM seems way less of a threat to them than that. As a simple anecdote: I was considering getting a car GPS. I don't drive a whole lot, I bike to work and can walk to most stores. So often when I am driving, it is to some place I've never been that isn't near where I live. Car GPS would be nice. I'd put it off since they were kind of pricey and I could solve the problem with a pen, paper, and online directions before leaving. However as the price dropped I thought maybe it would be something to have for convenience.

Then, I got my smartphone. I now have zero desire to own one. It takes care of everything perfectly. I have no reason to spend the money on a separate nav system and in fact a good reason not to in that I never forget my phone. It completely eliminated my interest in a sat nav.

You are right, that when I go visit my parents in Canada I can't use it, unless I want to pay roaming charges... However I wouldn't use it anyhow. I don't plan the driving around, it is their turf, they take me around. If I was going to do any substantial amount of driving I'd rent a car, not use their car, and in that rental I'd get a sat nav.

Re:No kidding (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140133)

I am not so sure in car nav systems are going to disappear. It can be integrated better to car systems, such as AR style HUD display etc. 4" phone screen cannot really compete with in car navigators. But maybe 10" tablet could, if car manufacturers designed their dashboards to have suitable slot to install your spanking new 10" android tablet.

Applies to them too? (5, Interesting)

Kergan (780543) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139875)

The oddest part, to me, is that they kind of admit to the same issues in TFA:

Our map-makers are real experts, many having over 20 years' experience in the field. And we harness the local knowledge of our 60 million satnav customers, who can make corrections through TomTom Map Share.

Surely a disgruntled employee can be do a better job at keeping disgruntled users in check, than a community of volunteers...

Re:Applies to them too? (4, Interesting)

dzfoo (772245) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140267)

TomTom uses their customers input as recommendations for changes, which are then vetted by their experts. OSM users act as their experts relying on self-policing and trust.

Surely, even Slashdot readers can understand the difference.

              -dZ.

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Open Street Maps vs Commercial Maps.... (5, Interesting)

xmundt (415364) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139899)

Greetings and Salutations;
          Well, I have been editing and contributing to OpenStreetMap for several years now, and, I have to say that while there is a point to the criticism, in general, I would disagree with their analysis. It is a bit too self-serving for my taste. I do not own a TomTom, but, have had a couple of Garmins, and, have used a TomTom unit before. The commercial maps have been no better than the Open Source maps, and in several cases have been far less accurate. There are a number of places here in East Tennessee where the commercial maps have the GPS insisting that I am driving through the fields on the side of the road.
          One point where Open Street Map shines is that it has actual roads and trails in such places as National Parks and forests...where the commercial maps have nothing but blank green areas.

Please keep thinking and watch the road(signs). (5, Insightful)

kwark (512736) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139905)

"Many drivers rely heavily on satellite navigation for precise directions, and mapping errors can be extremely dangerous, particularly in the case of one-way streets."

I see people using these commercial quality navigation units every day and still they take stupid actions like driving into a oneway street and making last second turns (right... left, NO RIGHT swerving all over the road) while spending more time looking at their statnav than on the road. Turn by turn navigation is dangerous by itself when used blindly no matter what maps are being used, they induce a near total lack of anticipation of traffic.

Re:Please keep thinking and watch the road(signs). (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139969)

I think this is a problem in general with society. For some reason common sense seems not to hold in court. Why on earth would TomTom be responsible for sending you off a cliff? You are human for crying out loud! You didn't get this brain to breathe and follow instructions. So simply spoken: I totally agree with you :).

Re:Please keep thinking and watch the road(signs). (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140005)

If TomTom is going to make claims about accuracy and resulting safety why shouldn't they be responsible. Should claims like the one in question be strictly beneficial to them?

All FUD (1)

darkstar019 (2320432) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139925)

Going by their argument, if community driven approach is not correct most of the time, then why do we rely on wikipedia? I have used various mapping softwares in rural places and they either report wrong location, or better still, 'No maps are available for this area' Bottomline: It is all FUD on their part of marketing their product.

Re:All FUD (0)

dzfoo (772245) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140275)

Great strawman there, did you make it yourself? Pretty.

The response is, obviously, that we nobody relies on Wikipedia.

            -dZ.

Re:All FUD (1)

Calos (2281322) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140469)

Or rather - if they do, they deserve exactly what they get.

pretty tame "fud" (4, Insightful)

Coeurderoy (717228) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139927)

Basically they say that they provide more "quality control" than OSM, and that people should check their electronic map, this is not false...

The arguments are very similar to the ones the various encyclopedias offered (and still offer if they haven't disapeared yet) against wikipedia.

But they do recognize value in OSM, so I guess they are more into thinking how in the future leverage OSM, after all the real competition to tomtom is not OSM but google map or bing map on the mobile phones....

They should focus on lowering the price of their hardware, who will pay at least 150€ for a satnav, when they can have something similar for 19€ on an android phone.
(since they need the phone subscription anyway, and yes the tomtom is probably "better", but 130€ buys quite a lot of gasoline, even at current prices).

Maybe they'll bring out a 50€ android + osm based navigator, and offer some fun "add ons"

Re:pretty tame "fud" (2)

raynet (51803) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139995)

Actually the TomTom device usually is worse than the iPhone/Android versions due to not so polished UI and lesser hardware (slower cpu, less memory etc).

Re:pretty tame "fud" (0)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140273)

And worlds better because it's maps are far better, fully offline, turn by turn navigation is far better in terms of route optimization, offer bigger monitor and much faster lock on times due to significantly more expensive GPS chipset and bigger antenna.

Dedicated applications on smartphones work quite well, but unless you're using a nokia, these cost significant sums of money and often ask for more money to keep maps up to date. Of course, since you limit it to "iphone/android", nokia is off the table.

Re:pretty tame "fud" (1)

Calos (2281322) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140481)

Google maps is free.

Yes, there are trade-offs between the two. For me, at least at this point in time - my phone does a good enough job that I can't justify the cost of another unit.

Re:pretty tame "fud" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140079)

Basically they say that they provide more "quality control" than OSM, and that people should check their electronic map, this is not false...

Which is probably complete bullshit.

I've never used a tom tom device, but I have used other products that (AFAIK) have exactly the same data source as tom tom. I have been told by a friend "tom tom tried to send me off a cliff on the way down X range this morning!!" and as a mapping geek I immediately knew *exactly* which corner they were talking about.

There is a tiny 4WD/mountain bike trail that goes down a steep ridge (almost too steep to drive down without locking the brakes up and skidding). On several commercial GPS products, it is marked as a road of the same "class" as the major highway that goes down the mountain range, and since it's so steep and joins back to the main highway (which zigzags down the mountain) you can cut a couple of minutes off your journey despite having to drive at walking pace through the rough parts.

Tom Tom tries to send you down this trail if you route between two major towns here... a 4WD trail so rough and steep you'd be risking a broken ankle walking down it.

OSM? It didn't have the trail at all until I added it myself, and I properly tagged it as a "track", not a major regional road.

I've had this experience a lot, OSM doesn't always have as much data as the commercial maps, but what OSM does have is a *lot* more reliable. And in more and more areas, OSM actually does have more data than the commercial products while still maintaining high reliability.

Re:pretty tame "fud" (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140121)

(since they need the phone subscription anyway, and yes the tomtom is probably "better", but 130€ buys quite a lot of gasoline, even at current prices).

Actually, I have a TomTom, but I do not have a phone subscription. And amazingly I'm getting by in life at least as well as the average phone subscriber.

TomTom geek employee (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139943)

I am ashamed of our marketing department

Re:TomTom geek employee (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140127)

Good.

Re:TomTom geek employee (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140191)

Same here...

Pot Calls the kettle black... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40139993)

I'm glad I have the tom-tom maps, and not OpenStreetMap. They are so accurate, that the TomTom maps try to take me through a tunnel not yet open (and not due to be open to end of this year). End Sarcasm.

How can Tom Tom claim their maps are accurate? They're far from that. Speed limits totally wrong. Intersections that don't exist. And don't get me started on the route planning. I have a brand new tom tom which I use in Brisbane Australia, and it will get something (if not more than one thing) wrong on every journey I've used it on.

Bring on the open community I say!

Good ol' TomTom (4, Insightful)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40139997)

I bought a WinCE PDA with TomTom back when they first appeared.
I later got a new version of the TT software for the same PDA.
Later I bought a TomTom device (still a WinCE PDA, but only running TT).
Then I bought an Android phone and... TT didn't have an app, so I got a different brand.
TT's enemy isn't some open mapping service, it's their own failure to adapt to the changing world around them.

Says something else... (5, Interesting)

Bert64 (520050) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140013)

The fact that Tomtom feels the need to bring up OSM says to me that OSM is now a credible competitive threat to them. The business model of selling maps for use on gps units is rapidly becoming obsolete, they can either try to fight it and become increasingly irrelevant, or adapt...

Incidentally, what i dislike about tomtom is that having bought the device, i needed a code to register my map, and this code was on a tiny sticker attached to the sleeve of a cd that came in the box... When my sdcard died, i replaced it, reloaded the software and map, only for it to refuse to work unless i entered the code. I still have the physical device, but have no idea where the code is (most likely lost) so am left with a relatively expensive device that i now cannot use via official channels.
Ofcourse, i simply found a crack online which allowed me to use the device i paid for without the tiny strip of paper containing an arbitrary code.

Hard Facts (4, Interesting)

orany (745200) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140015)

I have a TomTom and a month ago visited Cyprus. I did not find map for Cyprus. The only thing I have found in TomTom forum was a discussion if Cyprus is in Europe. O.T. It did not make to slashdot, but TomTom's had a nasty GPS bug after last DST switch. To get a GPS lock you had to cold start it.

Re:Hard Facts (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140203)

Which was caused by a firmware error in a Broadcom chip used in several products. Firmware was made by Broadcom, not TomTom.

Tomtom can get stuffed (5, Insightful)

Tough Love (215404) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140031)

The one thing that sticks in my mind about Tomtom: when they got sued by Microsoft, the open source community rallied round. But did they ever bother making the minimal effort to distribute a Linux client, perhaps to show appreciation if nothing else? Appreciation not just for the support they got against Microsoft but for giving them a free platform to build their business on? No. Too much to ask, apparently. As far as I am concerned, Tomtom can fuck themselves.

Oh, and when I lost my Tomtom I did not replace it, I bought a Garmin.

Let's distinguish here (5, Interesting)

batistuta (1794636) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140041)

I have been working with digital map data for on advanced driver assistance applications for a few years, and my experience is the following:

Some applications want lots of data. They don’t care if it is perfect or not, such as whether there is a zebra crossing, a traffic light, a stair, a path for mountain bike but not for road bike, etc. One example of this is navigation: it doesn’t matter if the turn has an error of 10 meter, if it is 10 or 25 degrees to the right, etc.

Other applications they are fine with less data, but this must be absolutely accurate to within a meter. Examples of this are active-safety applications, such as map-based adaptive front lighting, curve warning, etc.

Some other applications are in the middle. They are not very sensitive, but annoying if incorrect: example of this is speed limit warning.

The biggest map vendors collect hundreds of attributes at very high quality. This is true particularly for low-number functional classes (highways and motorways). They often meet the 5-m absolute and 1-m relative accuracy for geometry.

It is very difficult for OSM to meet this high quality, specially because you need a differential GPS (DGPS) to collect these. That said, map vendors invest most of their effort on large important roads, while rural or off-roads have from low to very poor quality.

Moreover, one thing is the quality at which data is collected, and another one is the map quality. Vendors tend to decimate (strip-out) geometry points on non important roads in order to reduce the size of the map.

So to sum up: if you are on a motorway or highway, OSM probably won’t match the quality of Navteq, Teleatlas or Google. If you are on a rural area, off-road, bike trail, etc., OSM will probably kick everyone’s butt. Plus it is usually more up-to-date.

TomTom tries to close this gap with their community content, which I find very dishonest from them. They save millions by using people’s data, but they don’t pass these savings back to the consumer.

Re:Let's distinguish here (1)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140145)

It is very difficult for OSM to meet this high quality, specially because you need a differential GPS (DGPS) to collect these.

If they have a means of averaging all the different GPS tracks they receive to produce their data, that wouldn't matter so much. You could even crowdsource this ; have a task list for people who are registered as "Open Street Mappers" in a particular region to go and recollect given data points to improve their accuracy.

Re:Let's distinguish here (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140171)

If they have a means of averaging all the different GPS tracks they receive to produce their data, that wouldn't matter so much. You could even crowdsource this ; have a task list for people who are registered as "Open Street Mappers" in a particular region to go and recollect given data points to improve their accuracy.

waze.com does exactly this. They put small "goodies" shaped as candy on the streets that needs more data points, and users go there to collect the candy and help improve the map.

Re:Let's distinguish here (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140545)

"The biggest map vendors collect hundreds of attributes at very high quality. This is true particularly for low-number functional classes (highways and motorways). They often meet the 5-m absolute and 1-m relative accuracy for geometry."

Really? My expierence tells otherwise. They have very high quality of isolated patches of the globe. Rest of it is quite dull and lack of any details.

Magic (1)

arikol (728226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140081)

The problem, as I see it, is that the non-tech savvy have already realised that computers are just machines and fail all the time (just like any other extremely complex piece of machinery).
What many people fail to grasp is that a GPS is also just a computer (and thereby a machine). People seem to view it as "the magic map box that was invented at Hogwarts", and view the underlying technology as being satellites that sense where you are and feed you the right picture. Heck, they even talk about "the Google satellites".. and TV shows aren't helping

This is just a basic misunderstanding of what the technology is, and that leads to this insane blind trust.
People don't know that the GPS isn't actually talking to a satellite, and that the maps are just pictures made by someone and loaded onto the device.

The people here at /. are a bit more tech savvy than the average person, and we actually care about this stuff. Most people don't. They just want their HogwartsBox to tell them where to go in the voice of Professor Snape (okay, so do we, but we know how it's done and that the limitations are...)

Screw you, TomTom (4, Insightful)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140101)

I've made the mistake of buying U.S. maps from TomTom twice. Fooled me twice, so shame on me.

In both cases, I needed TomTom to get me to hotels in the south east, where the hotels are located on roads that were created about 3-4 years ago. Google Maps had the roads, but even the most recent update of TomTom did not.

So I emailed TomTom and I was like, hey, your maps are really stale regarding this address. Their response? "Here's how you can correct our maps."

Excuse me, but I'm not paying ~ $50 for the privilege of correcting your maps. If I take the time to show you where your maps are wrong, and I can point your customer support people to the correct data on Google Maps, you do the damn work of updating your fscking maps.

I've found TomTom quite useful over the past few years, but I really can't see continuing my business relationship with them.

Re:Screw you, TomTom (3, Insightful)

Luckyo (1726890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140325)

Your problem is likely not with their maps, but with their business model. Tomtom earns money by selling map UPDATES.

Screw TomTom (1)

DJRikki (646184) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140335)

I bought my first TomTom (and last) a year ago, was instantly out of date map wise missing some fairly major chunks of motorway network that had been completed locally 6 months before purchase. No new maps were sent only tiny small updates. Khants the lot of them.

Trap street (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140351)

Waze (1)

xer.xes (4181) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140383)

This attack was mainly targeted at Waze (surpassed Twitter (!) in the App Store), which has around 20 million users, and becoming a real threat - OSM navigation is not nearly that popular (yet?).

my town (3, Informative)

mennucc1 (568756) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140517)

Many years ago a freeway bypass was opened near my home: so to access the freeway I do not need to cross the city center. When I bought a TomTom device in 2010, I noted that the bypass was not yet added , so TomTom always plans a route thru the city center: I added it manually and suggested as a correction - but no official correction was ever issued. Last summer I forked another 70€ to buy a map update, in hope that it would add this correction: but no, I wasted my money. I am deeply disappointed.

The title should be: TomTom fears OpenStreetMaps (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140521)

The title should be: TomTom fears OpenStreetMaps
And by FUDing on them TomTom just really said that OpenStreetMaps are serious competitor and TomTom can soon be out of the business.

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  • ecode

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<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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