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Oz Govt Pushes Ahead With ISP Customer Data Retention

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the security-through-rampant-privacy-violation dept.

Australia 67

angry tapir writes "The Australian federal government is pushing ahead with reforms that could see consumers' information kept on file for up to two years by ISPs. This could include the data retention of personal Internet browsing information which intelligence agencies could access in the event of criminal activities by individuals or organizations."

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67 comments

Wow! Teetering on the edge! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140281)

It was sent to a parliamentary committee for public discussion! We all know how productive and fast moving those are!</sarcasm>

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (1)

Sorthum (123064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140315)

Sure, but that's still far closer than it should be to becoming law.

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (4, Insightful)

coastwalker (307620) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140417)

Don't kid yourself, the security forces have been monitoring for years, Carnivore started in 1997. I don't think many people have qualms about the spooks looking for nutters with explosives from their IP traffic.

Its just time to start opening the data up to regular law enforcement agencies so that they can openly take to court all you criminal copyright thieves and put you in jail. Because we all know by now that 'home taping kills music' and that copyright infringement is 'Terrorism' or 'Pedophilia', just ask Hollywood or the RIAA.

You might feel that this is a little excessive, especially as the next tier of petty bureaucrats to be given access to your traffic will be Local Government and Social Service droids. Don't kid yourself that the Sheeple are going to object to this, after all it will be done to catch 'Terrorists' and 'Pedophiles', and anyway Facebook will be telling them what to think by then anyway.

Isn't it weird how we fought a cold war for half a century against totalitarian communism and now we are becoming totalitarian democracy's.

Its a bit disappointing.

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140581)

I screech on ass! I screech on your bootyass! There is no more truly will away!

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (3, Funny)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140587)

copyright infringement is 'Terrorism' or 'Pedophilia'

Let's see...

By copying music, you are creating more playable media.
Therefore the copied music will be played more often.
Which means more people will be exposed to the copied music.
This will result in more people bying the music they just heard.
By definition, copied music is music that has already been released in some original form.
People are now buying music by artists that already released music.
They don't equally increase spending on artists that have yet to release music.
It is within reason to assume current children will want to make and release music in the future.
Therefore, copying music is basically screwing children.
Copying is pedophilia! It is logically proven.

Now as for terrorism...

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140891)

Fat chicks: what a waste of a perfectly good vagina.

These days no fat chick is complete without a half-black kid. Note what you don't see: the father!

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141013)

Does this bigoted rant have anything to do with anything?

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141141)

Does this bigoted rant have anything to do with anything?

Bigoted? How can facts be bigotry?

It's like you liberal bed-wetting whiners don't even TRY anymore. "Wah that offends me, cry cry" ok, tell me what facts contradict me. What's wrong? Can't do it?

It's just a FACT: if you see a morbidly obese white single mother, the majority of the time her child will be half black. Considering black males are around 6% of the population even 50/50 odds would be significant. The odds here are greater than 50/50.

There is a reason horribly fat white women are fucking black men without birth control. I want to know what that reason is. I suspect taking ANY white woman is the black man's way of trying to get back at Whitey since he doesn't exactly like Whitey. Little does he understand, by going for the lardasses he is merely taking the garbage we don't want. The fat woman on the other hand is probably grateful for any male attention she can get since she refuses to stop overeating.

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40142177)

WTF do you live that black males make up 6% of the population?

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (1)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 2 years ago | (#40141457)

Just, for God's sake, don't wake the Sheeple!

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40149673)

If every "copyright theif" was put in jail there'd be about 100 free people in any first world nation - all of them politicians working their ass off to make what they do legal.

Re:Wow! Teetering on the edge! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40151595)

You forgot online gambling. People who do this illegally should be tracked down and jailed. Its ruining families.

Conclusion of the report... (5, Interesting)

hey_popey (1285712) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140283)

We see an increase in SSL connections to Sweden.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (4, Insightful)

Sorthum (123064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140323)

Or tor. Or VPN endpoints overseas. Or ssh tunnels.

I don't really see how legislation can reasonably expect to keep up with technological innovation.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (4, Interesting)

k(wi)r(kipedia) (2648849) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140589)

But this can be done. Ban all encrypted traffic not specifically authorized by the authorities. This way, the first SSH/VPN connection to somewhere, and the cops come knocking at your door. Those using Wifi will be limited to plain HTTP, enough for the feeble (Facebook people) to post and check their accounts.

The big "trusted" media companies can be granted exceptions for their DRM in exchange for having server-side monitoring software (backdoors) installed in their systems.

The passive Pirate Bay-style of trying to run circles around government Internet policies will fail in the long run, unless accompanied by some sort of active political resistance, be it Net-only site "black outs" or flesh-and-banner street protests.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140669)

Encryption is the most obvious method of defeating data interception, but it is not the only method.

Steganography, for example, is getting better every day (as a recent slashdot story shows: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/02/10/1838207/tor-tests-undetectably-encrypted-connections-in-iran [slashdot.org] ). And of course, if they don't know that you're sending/receiving forbidden traffic, then they won't know if it's encrypted also (which means: they can't shut it down as it happens; nor can they stop you once they catch on unless they remove all access completely - that might be possible, but without some good reason, you'd hope it would be difficult).

Besides, all sorts of businesses run VPNs to Sweden (and a whole lot of other places); if they want to be a third-world country, this is a good start on achieving it.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141125)

Blah! Blah! Solutions to nothing. Gibberish!

The inherent problem is simple, political ambition. The power base begins with a brain dead public and this decade's public is DOA. It's probably unavoidable. We're running out of people who had to pay the price for the idiocy of WW 1 and 2. The truth is, nobody put too much effort into teaching the moral lesson anyway. Too busy fighting the commies, right?

We don't need rights, do we? All we have is a duty to some aristocrat we've never seen. Duty, duty, duty! Carry on!

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

ghostdoc (1235612) | more than 2 years ago | (#40145275)

I haven't tried it, but I don't see any immediate technical hurdles to writing a web service to do torrent-like file transfer over HTTP

No, if they wanted to control this, then they'd need to lock down the client properly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing [wikipedia.org] would be the way to do it, ensure that only 'proper' commercial organisations could write software that could be installed on the average PC.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | more than 2 years ago | (#40143239)

Or tor. Or VPN endpoints overseas. Or ssh tunnels.

I don't really see how legislation can reasonably expect to keep up with technological innovation.

Easy way is to limit "overseas" access. Australian limits on Internet were quite ... low - think 10GB-ish. But the catch was that if it was within country, it was "free" and "unlimited" (hence a lot of local mirrors and Steam and other services being colocated there). So any attempts to use an outside VPN mean that you're just using up your quota faster.

The old reason was technical - the only way to get Internet access was either satellite or someone laying a cable, and the cable was the bottleneck...

Re:Conclusion of the report... (4, Interesting)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140331)

Nah, what we really need is a program that just sits there all day doing random DNS lookups and loading the web pages...let 'em try and store exabytes of data and try to find anything useful in it.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (5, Funny)

djsmiley (752149) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140357)

Average facebook user tbh.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (2)

ciderbrew (1860166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140415)

They'll only throw a lot more tax at it to beef up the system and then make those programmes / programmers illegal. You need TRON to fight for the users.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140549)

Except that the ISPs are going to be required to foot that bill

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140601)

They'll only throw a lot more tax at it to beef up the system

Nope, the ISP will be paying for it.

If the ISPs have to put their prices up you can bet a few more people might hear about this stupid law. The average Joe/Bruce will accept this in the name of saving the babies so long as it doesn't directly cost him more money. Tell him it's an extra five dollars a month and he might start saying "no".

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40160649)

Most non technical users I know are already paying to much to their ISP here.
Add a reason that can be dressed up as 'security' or 'technical' and average users I know will just wear it.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140609)

They're already working on it in the US. See Google vs. Oracle, and CISPA.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140597)

Hmm. DOSing the program with too much data. I like that idea.

Does anyone know (roughly) what their storage capacity is? I mean, just how aggressive do we want this thing to be?

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140537)

Besides the fact that Sweden may not be all that safe (J. Assuage) - who will PAY for ISP's storing all this tripe.
Now if they build this in to inflated ISP prices - like NBN, god help them when porn starts at 33% of the traffic.
I agree - random ISP lookups all day long and random , plausible emails to random names.

If you have an isp with certain unlimited pages or use TOR/Onion your ISP's are going to pay a real and very heavy price for co-operating.
If more than 5% start doing this, that policy will break.

I propose Australian ISP's all store their data in overseas clouds, especially dodgy ones that may go under, like megaupload.
Or set up a subsidiary that transfers all profit overseas, meaning the Tax collected will be *NIL*. Problem solved. There will also be a security risk that overseas entities mine that cloud - producing negative national security. Another hairbrain scheme that assumes things wont change significantly - except for the bad TM guys.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140559)

Forgot to mention, when the security agencies want the goods , the ISP's refer them to the overseas entity that *owns* the cloud and charges them *FULL* cost recovery based on total storage / # of requests plus the cost of support. That may be a real eye opener.

Odd world you live in (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140649)

It appears you think that when law enforcement seizes items for evidence that they pay full retail price for the goods instead of just taking it away. The only "charges" in your example above would be the fines or time served for contempt of court or some sort of obstruction.

Re:Conclusion of the report... (1)

Joce640k (829181) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140797)

I agree - random ISP lookups all day long and random , plausible emails to random names.

Back in the old days, when HTTP was just a twinkle in Tim Berners-Lee's eye, email programs used to randomly add trigger words (eg. 'bomb', 'nsa', 'plutonium') to all outgoing mail then automatically strip it off again at the other end.

I assume it was done as some sort of hacker joke but we should start doing it again. Any sort of government fishing expeditions through user traffic needs to be made completely futile.

Unfortunately most people send their mail via large corporate software so the chances of it happening are null.

How terrible! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140297)

That means spied records of all innocent people are kept almost half as long as they are in the US!

(I mean, officially. You know those records aren't really going anywhere ever)

Money Quote (3, Insightful)

Namarrgon (105036) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140299)

“Crooks and terrorists will just use encryption or secure services to provide nothing but meaningless data - it's Mr or Mrs Average whose lives could be turned upside down by data breaches or bureaucratic spying.”

Now if only that quote had come from the Attorney General, instead of Electronic Frontiers Australia...

What's the problem? (3, Funny)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140307)

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. Why is your bathroom door shut, anyway? What are you hiding in there?

Re:What's the problem? (2)

ciderbrew (1860166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140419)

Nothing, come in and enjoy the smell.

Re:What's the problem? (1)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140977)

Everyone loves their own brand.

Re:What's the problem? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140429)

The door is closed to keep the 2 year old away from my porn mags.

Re:What's the problem? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140459)

Give us your address, so that we can open your regular mail. Dumbass.

Re:What's the problem? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141815)

He agrees with you, dumbfuck. Try reading next time.

Re:What's the problem? (1)

lightknight (213164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140623)

To which we respond: "Silly, why are you wearing those clothes? Do you have something to hide? Must be drugs / pirated software / Korans. Now off with them, put on some of this baby oil as we get the camera (for your mugshots, and we will be taking a number of them today) ready."

Re:What's the problem? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140663)

To which we respond: "I wouldn't be wearing these clothes either if it weren't for the public decency statutes, this is australia the weathers great. Suncream and smiles all the way. Be gently now big boy.

How could they even begin to do this? (4, Interesting)

Sorthum (123064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140309)

I don't see where it stipulates what would need to be retained. Is it merely header information? A list of URLs (SSL will break this)? A copy of the data itself?

No matter which direction this goes, it seems to me that it would be very, very easy to overwhelm them with data. Fire off a perl script that connects to $giant_list_of_random_URLs 500 times a minute. Turn it down when you need to do work, crank it up when you go to bed... and you're suddenly costing them an enormous amount of storage while turning their signal to noise ratio into crap.

Re:How could they even begin to do this? (1)

Barefoot Monkey (1657313) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140411)

Better make that $giant_list_of_random_nonincriminating_URLs just to be safe

It doesn't cost the government much (4, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140627)

Yes, costing the ISP a packet for storage (which they will pass on to you) while the government is free to go on and makes more pointless laws to tinker with the net.

Re:How could they even begin to do this? (1)

jez9999 (618189) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140647)

Actually that would be @giant_list_of_random_URLs :-)

Insufferable ALP (1)

Dracophile (140936) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140341)

These tools are virtually daring us to vote for "that other little man".

Re:Insufferable ALP (2)

jonwil (467024) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140441)

If you think Tony Abbot wouldn't give the AFP and other law enforcement agencies the same deal (i.e. mandatory data retention by ISPs so they can catch the "bad guys"), you clearly dont know Australian politics.

Re:Insufferable ALP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140831)

Yeah, I notice Abbott stays silent when someone accuses the ALP of sneaky dealings with the movie studios about how to get more money out of Australians.

You would think he would jump on an opportunity to call them out for shady dealings, unless it would affect his bribes personally.

Re:Insufferable ALP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141067)

Australia has politics? More like media fanfare and a handout comity. It's has been a long time since I witnessed anything like politics in Australia - it really is a joke.

Re:Insufferable ALP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141205)

This could include the data retention of personal Internet browsing information which intelligence agencies could access in the event of criminal activities by individuals or organizations.

This will include the data retention of personal Internet browsing information which intelligence agencies will access in the event of boredom, lack of current funding, need for a new bogeyman, failure to vocally support the new regime, etc.

FTFY

Re:Insufferable ALP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140591)

I thought ISP Data Retention was being introduced in order to comply with upcoming European Laws? Although I think they've been ruled illegal in Europe so are pretty much dead...

Re:Insufferable ALP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141043)

What, you still vote for the fools that are our major parties? I gave up on them years ago.

Looks like... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140369)

I'm voting Greens again.

Re:Looks like... (1)

crafty.munchkin (1220528) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140721)

... because that did so much last time! :P

I too voted greens. And will probably vote that way again, in the vain hope that somehow, in this safe Labor seat, it makes a difference. Sadly, I doubt it will.

Re:Looks like... (1)

LordLucless (582312) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140893)

So, Labour then. It's getting to be like voting against the Liberals by going National.

Re:Looks like... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141009)

Amen to this... of course... they'll now know I'm voting greens because there will be ZERO anonymity. Anonymous Coward? surely ye jest... just wait for the reverse lookups to kick in - its not like they have a zillion ISPs to deal with.

Re:Looks like... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40141073)

Fuck you. Have you read the policies on their website?

Just clicking some at random, the greens will, according to their website

*ban the use of animals as experimental objects in military and industrial research, and in cosmetics testing.
*ban genetic engineering involving animals, including reproductive cloning.
*abolish the requirement for secret ballots before industrial action.
*strengthen unions’ right of entry to recruit members, inspect for and remedy breaches of occupational health and safety provisions, breaches of the Fair Work Act and relevant awards or agreements, and other activities relating to strengthening workers’ organisations.
*repeal voluntary student union legislation and support the role of student unions by the universal collection of student fees for amenities and services, by an elected student body.
*means test the first home owners grant.
*legislate to ensure truth in political advertising.
*maintain the ban on parallel importation of books.
*end the exploration for, and the mining and export of, uranium
*close the OPAL nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights.
*end training and joint exercises by the ADF with the armed forces known to have committed human rights abuses.
*support the right of ADF personnel to conscientiously object to particular military actions, and support the rights of citizens to protest against such military actions.
*end subsidies and tax concessions to environmentally harmful industries.
*introduce an equitable retirement income system that effectively and adequately provides women with financial independence when they retire.

If you are aware of, and agree with, their unworkable wealth redistribution, phobia of Nuclear power (to the point where they want to close the place that makes our medical isotopes), enpowering of union thugs to intimidate employees and employers, and declaw our defense force, then I have some respect for you (although I still think you're a fuckhead). If, as I suspect, you vote Greens to be "different" without realising they're a bunch of communists, you should be sterilized.

Re:Looks like... (1)

daktari (1983452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40141121)

I love the way you start your post with utmost respect... Such a charming enlighten'd brain you must have -- you definitely make me want to vote for whomever you are supporting.

Re:Looks like... (1)

catprog (849688) | more than 2 years ago | (#40162451)

*means test the first home owners grant.

Good. it will bring down the cost of housing for the people who can't afford it.

*ensure truth in political advertising

Sounds like a good idea

*end subsidies and tax concessions to environmentally harmful industries.

Why should the government provide money to them?

I particularity like the policy

*make the workings of the Australian Classification Board and OFLC more transparent and subject to public review.

Re:Looks like... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40143079)

Surely, you're joking? You do realise that those idiots support this stuff, right?

Re:Looks like... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40152105)

Vote for the shooters and fishers party

IDN Yazilim (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140683)

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"in the event of"? (1)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 2 years ago | (#40140723)

  • Say, Bruce, got any crimmos that we need to convict?
  • No, Bruce, can't say as I have. Shall we make some?
  • Bonza idea, Bruce, just toss this month's copy of the Statue book over and let's see who's been up to something that we've just decided is a bit naughty.

And that's how funding works.

Laziness in the title... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40140963)

Today I saw Australia spelled 'Austalia' in an /. title, so I guess that is a good enough reason to use 'Oz' in the title instead, apart from the fact that I don't know an single AustRalian who the word Oz in typeform, we usually type Aus if we're lazy enough but, I know, I know, it's an extra letter and all, it's an extra 33.33% chance that someone might screw it up!

Adelaide TAFE has been doing this for years! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40142281)

Adelaide TAFE was build as a response to the (then) great increase in Overseas students to South Australia, either to learn English, study at uni or as exchange students.

I was on a "behind the scenes" tour of Adelaide TAFE's IT room, eg, as part of a Linux conference in 2004, where the host quite -proudly- recounted all the details of their "Save Everything" policy & procedures.

"Past is Prologue" ;-/

What's -really- lacking of Australia's public sector use of IT is what the gov't -refuses- to release to the public.

AUSTRALIA HAS A LOT TO LEARN FROM SWEDEN ABOUT GIVING THE PUBLIC WHAT IT'S PAID FOR.

Eg, a talk for Australian Computer Society, given about 8 years ago (in a [tele]conference room, at the top of Adelaide-based EDS corporation's N Tce CBD tower), gov't IT heads had no problems revealing that - even where internal Health Dep't IT staff had informally come up with correlations between known locations of air and/or wather pollution in South Australia and unusually high rates of particular diseases - there was NO CHANCE that they'd "ever" -officially- release such correlations to the Public.

As to reasons for this unethical secrecy (IMO), the IT heads told us that the gov't would be sued by anyone in Real Estate, eg, after prices dropped (in less healthy areas).

Compare to USA, which has on-line registers of places where pollutants are known to be stored and/or where other sources of air / water / ground pollution may be (or have been) spewing toxins over time.

Welcome to Australia, where "she'll be right, mate".. :-/

Seriously, you've obviously got to be well connected to someone who has access to such correlations in order to get any access yourself - either a manager or an IT Guru.

I'm reminded of a recent /. article:

IT Guru's don't always have the Public Good topping their priority-lists... One SysAdmin - with lots of access to the national broadcaster: ABC (a.k.a. "Auntie") - was caught having installed software to sell unused CPU-time to private sector buyers.

S/He -wasn't- fired, but got some training on what was OK & not OK to do with tax-paer IT systems.
I didn't hear whether he had to share any of his "CPU-cycle" earnings with the ABC and/or gov't...?

SPIDERS! (2)

Bigsquid.1776 (2554998) | more than 2 years ago | (#40143417)

Time for everyone in Australia to run a 24/7 web spider that surfs random sites.

Re:SPIDERS! (1)

dcl (680528) | more than 2 years ago | (#40151925)

We would, but we don't have large enough data caps :-p

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