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CDDB No Longer Allows Grip Users to Connect UPDATED

michael posted more than 13 years ago | from the type-them-in-yourself dept.

Music 243

ezln23 writes: "I have been a regular user of Grip for CD Ripping and MP3 encoding for quite a few months now. Today when I attempted to rip a new CD I bought, I received this message. "Your CD player application is either not licensed to use the Gracenote(tm) CDDB(tm) service or its license has expired. If you are unsure what this means, please see our web site at http://www.cddb.com/lic/Grip. If you are a developer and feel you have received this message in error or wish to get your application licensed, please contact support for assistance." I guess the predictions in this article were correct." We've also received submissions about kscd and other applications that query CDDB, so it looks like CDDB has cut off everyone who didn't pay up.Update: 03/10 02:28 PM by H : It looks like it was a short-lived thing - I can connect fine to it this morning - and I can assure you, I haven't paid.

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ironic: CDDB, RIAA and Napster (3)

joemaller (37695) | more than 13 years ago | (#372810)

From reading the notes, I doubt this will affect many people. I just ripped a few CDs tonight from SoundJam and it worked fine.

However there is an irony regarding the Napster/RIAA lawsuits if this was extrapolated out and the CDDB started restricting access to their database. In very measurable ways, the CDDB is helping the RIAA to filter Napster. Of course there is still the FreeDB (thankfully), but play along for fun.

The RIAA's injunction against Napster works by filtering file names, most of which come from the CDDB. Consistant file names make the injunction workable. Removing the CDDB would cause a large number of people to input their own names with all the associated inconsistancies, making filtering all the more difficult. I find this quite funny. It's only too bad the RIAA didn't target the CDDB and only later realize how much it was helping their jihad against their customers and themselves.

joe maller

FreeDB and CDDB (1)

676946745 (317589) | more than 13 years ago | (#372812)

What's the point of having two? Can someone explain? And why is CDDB trying to charge money? Why don't the two just merge for the common good of the Internet, and make a free service?

Re:how bad is the license? (2)

norton_I (64015) | more than 13 years ago | (#372817)

From memory, to write an applciation that uses CDDB, you must:

1) Advertize for CDDB. You must put their logo on your application somewhere. There were some restrictions about size/placement/visability/etc.

2) Use CDDB exclusively. You cannot allow users to enter a different server name, such as freedb.

3) You must not store or redistribute the data you get from cddb. This is including, but not limited to submitting the data back to freedb. I believe caching is allowed, at least for local use only. Not sure about putting the data into ID3 tags and the like.

4) You must agree that all data submitted becomes the exclusive property of gracenote.

5) I think commercial players have to pay a license fee, but free ones don't.

Note: I read this a long time ago, and can't be bothered to look it up. The license may have changed, or I may be mistaken.

Re:What they are doing to Grip is wrong but.... (1)

Manitcor (218753) | more than 13 years ago | (#372818)

Check again here [nostatic.org] is the link the the Grip website. From what I can see there is no banner ad.

Re:Since when should EVERYTHING be free? (1)

orangesquid (79734) | more than 13 years ago | (#372820)

People should take back their CDDB submissions! :)
Just write them a letter saying the information was submitted under false assumptions, and you are now declaring your submission null and void, and to request they remove your piece of effort from your database or you'll file a complaint against them for misusing your time.

Re:A reminder that abcde works with FreeDB (1)

rcw-home (122017) | more than 13 years ago | (#372823)

Err, do the search and replace on cddb-tool, not abcde.

Copy the DB (2)

Eric Destiny (255168) | more than 13 years ago | (#372825)

Since FreeDB is an obvious alternative to CDDB now, why don't we make it at the very least, equal.

Since the CDDB database is searchable via their webpage [gracenote.com] why doesn't everybody just copy 'n' paste as many entries possible and submit them to FreeDB. Since all the entries were user-submitted is copyright an issue here?

There are thousands (millions?) of people reading this article and comment, think how many submissions could be added to FreeDB tonight alone.


"I am a man, and men are
animals who tell stories."

and feed it to FreeDB (2)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | more than 13 years ago | (#372826)

The proxy can get the data from cddb (that users entered) and submit it to freedb.

Re:Gracenote has freeware license (4)

norton_I (64015) | more than 13 years ago | (#372827)

However, the free (beer) license is still nasty, as it requires you to use cddb exclusively. So if you let you users have a choice between freedb and cddb, you can't be licensed. Also, you have to put their logo on your program.

As a side note, I wonder what this does to people with firewalls that strip/mangle/replace the User-Agent HTTP header? or is the filtering only on their cddb protocol, not http?

So what do you do? (2)

veranikon (202025) | more than 13 years ago | (#372829)

So Gracenote appears to be exercising judgement in what it believes to be authorized/unauthorized MP3 players (didn't recognize Sonique, did recognize Realjukebox), presumably to make the burning of copy-protected CD's less convenient. I especially like the we-dont-really-care-if-your-player-really-is-licen sed-but-not-on-our-list wording: "That application does/does not appear to be a licensed CDDB-Enabled Application."

But what about people coding their own MP3 players or CD players, for release as a new product? I see Gracenote offers a "Non-Commerical developer's license" for such a situation, but it's limited to 100 end-users until Gracenote validates the license.

Yet what really stinks is how Gracenote is currently featuring an MP3 encoder (N2MP3) that apparently incorporates the LAME open-source MP3 codec, even tho LAME itself is not on the CDDB list. I.e. you can't use LAME itself with CDDB, but you're more than welcome to buy this commercially distributed rehash which does.

Economics of running a free, online DB? (5)

fhwang (90412) | more than 13 years ago | (#372831)

The obvious response to a move like this is to say: "Hey, everybody, use FreeDB [freedb.org] ." Which I agree with, but I also have to wonder: If everybody starts using FreeDB instead of CDDB, will they be able to afford it?

There's a lot of non-trivial work involved with running a database like this, and it seems like it might not scale well. If FreeDB ever gets extremely wide adoption, won't the costs of running it become nearly insurmountable? CDDB can finance this because it charges fees. IMDB [slashdot.org] is (I believe) owned by Amazon, and because its data is mostly dispensed via a web site and it can slap ad banners on the top. None of these options would appear to be available for FreeDB.

I am not posting as a nay-sayer: I'm quite ignorant about a lot of the logistics & financial considerations. I'd appreciate it if somebody more intimately familiar with the workings of FreeDB -- or any similarly large, free online DB -- would comment on this.

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

wholesomegrits (155981) | more than 13 years ago | (#372835)

"Hell, we can make it a community-based site. I don't suppose it would take more than a couple of weeks for some of the 'net's elites to initiate such a service."

Considering CDDB has sucked and been a turncoat for some time, you idea has reached fruition in the form of Freedb.org. All the benefits of CDDB, sans the corporate lust.

Note: This is Only a Hypothetical (1)

Fencepost (107992) | more than 13 years ago | (#372837)

Just to be sure nobody gets confused, the Red Cross hypothetical situation used as an example isn't going to happen, it's only an example.

-- fencepost

You might be confused about the issue here (3)

Squirrel Killer (23450) | more than 13 years ago | (#372841)

While Fair Use might be an issue as to whether a service like CDDB is legal in the first place, I don't see how it applies here.

CDDB has a service that it provides - a database of CDs, songs, and artists (btw- a database that they built of the labor of volunteers). Connecting to their servers to get the information is at their discretion. Grip doesn't have that discretion. Grip tries to establish a connection to CDDB servers that CDDB doesn't want. The information is available elsewhere, namely FreeDB [freedb.org] . This isn't a result of a bad law, it's a result of CDDB being an ass and changing the rules of how an application can connect to it.

While I dislike CDDB and their restrictive agreements for developers and end-users alike, and while I think this action is kinda low, they are within their rights as a service provider. Would an ISP be justified to cut off a deadbeat account? This is a similar situation.

-sk

Gracenote has freeware license (5)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372842)

As of yesterday, Gracenote has posted a *free* (FREE, NO COST) license to freeware developers. As long as your application makes you no money directly or indirectly, then you won't have to pay anything to use the CDDB service.

I believe even Grip would be eligible for this, assuming it really is revenue-free.

FYI, the CDDB blockage is not targeted at Grip, but rather only allows licensed applications.

Re:Interesting (1)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#372844)

A remarkable proposal... penalize people who provide a service for free by forcing them to continue it in perpetuity.

I see what you're saying, but how is it particularly unfair to require that an entity that collected data in the pretense that it would always be freely available release the data when they it no longer wished to offer the service for free, without condition? That is not the same thing as ordering Hotmail to never shut down or to charge.

I don't think anyone's advocating requiring the former CDDB, aka Gracenote, to provide free access to their servers in perpetuity. While it would be nice if they had done that, I would have been satisfied if they had simply release the database into the public domain, which is where it essentially came from. Whether what they did was legal or not, it sure as heck wasn't even in the same star system as moral.

CDDB was built entirely by submissions from users (1)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 13 years ago | (#372846)

The database patent is preposterous, as is this action by cddb owners.

Anyone interested in tweaking napster to handle this sort of thing?

Re:Note: This is Only a Hypothetical (1)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#372847)

Sorry--I hoped that would seem so unlikely that no one would ever think it. The Red Cross has given no indication that it would do such a thing, and I didn't mean to imply that it had!

Re:Hmmmm... (1)

TeknoDragon (17295) | more than 13 years ago | (#372855)

I noticed that too... Maybe this is one case where RMSian zealotry does linux in general some good?

Do check the facts first (3)

dpol (189913) | more than 13 years ago | (#372856)

We're using Gracenote's CDDB2 service in one of our commercial applications and we don't pay Gracenote a dime. You only have to pay Gracenote if you charge for your software and have a very large number of users (more than 250,000 or something like that). There is a "free" license that states that if you don't make money off your product in any way (including but not limited to banner advertising), you don't have to pay, no matter how many users you have.

I suppose that the software the story mentions makes use of the original CDDB1 service; Gracenote has said that they will someday terminate this service and move all of its users to CDDB2. I'm not sure that this is what happened, though.

Also, I'm not certain that Gracenote has released the CDDB2 UNIX SDK yet. The Win32 SDK has been available for quite some time now and consists of a well-defined set of COM interfaces. The Win32 SDK is well-documented and supported by Gracenote. We've been very happy with the level of support we've received (again, for free).

Provided that the UNIX/Linux SDK has been released and there are no license issues, any free software (as in beer at least) could make use of CDDB2 and Gracenote's servers free of charge.

Note that I don't touch on whether it was right of them to use the community-entered data in the first place; most discussions on Slashdot seem to center on this issue.

Hmmmm... (5)

DeeKayWon (155842) | more than 13 years ago | (#372858)

Considering Grip uses FreeDB by default, it shouldn't affect too many people.

Re:What they are doing to Grip is wrong but.... (1)

demon (1039) | more than 13 years ago | (#372859)

Well, (a) grip isn't a "licensed" CDDB client. I think Gracenote are a bunch of assholes, but that's the fact of the matter. And, (b) did you READ the requirements for their agreement? You have to display some "Powered by Gracenote CDDB" advert image when it's pulling from their CDDB server, they have specific limits on how you can/can't use the retrieved data, you can't allow the use of any other CD info retrieval service, etc. They're really a bunch of picky bastards.
_____

Frickin' Bastards (2)

The Original Bobski (52567) | more than 13 years ago | (#372861)

I freely submitted to their database many of my "offbeat" CD titles a few years ago thinking this was a cool idea. Last I checked, those submissions are still there. Now the assholes want to charge for information they sucked from the community?

Dipshits!

Its the same thing..... (1)

Diplomat73 (323901) | more than 13 years ago | (#372863)

I beleive it may be kindo of like whats been happening to Napster users. I beleive its www.nettracker.com(Dont hold me to this) anyways they go in and see if anyone is using any illegal files. If they are they send a notice to Napster to shout down their account or they send a notice to the ISP provider and tell them to shut down there internet

The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

crashnbur (127738) | more than 13 years ago | (#372865)

I think that the CDDB should be a service that allows anyone to use it, as long as it is financially stable. It can be a very useful, and therefore very loved, service if it does not give in to the way of the anal retentive music industry and try to charge for every little detail of life. In short, if the CDDB turns cheap, I say we turn up a new CD database. Hell, we can make it a community-based site. I don't suppose it would take more than a couple of weeks for some of the 'net's elites to initiate such a service.

Werd to free music. Werd to free information. Werd to the people.

This makes me mad. But alternates exist. (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372866)

Those CDDB bastards took Internet-contributed and generated data and decided to license it (and charge) back to the Internet community.

But I guess that's why we have free alternatives like freeCDDB [freecddb.org] .

i did (1)

Grifter (12763) | more than 13 years ago | (#372867)

i noticed this about 3 weeks ago but thought it was grip's problem...

Gee... (4)

Bob McCown (8411) | more than 13 years ago | (#372868)

...use a service that requires a license fee, dont pay the fee, get cut off.

and the problem is?

Re:Gracenote has freeware license (1)

demon (1039) | more than 13 years ago | (#372869)

Read their "free" license - they have some very specific requirements that I don't think any open-source app could reasonably meet. Even if grip included the required advert image while pulling from the CDDB servers, it could be hacked to disable that. If it didn't allow pulling from anywhere but www.cddb.com, someone would hack it to do so.

Use FreeDB. Please.
_____

Interesting (2)

fluxrad (125130) | more than 13 years ago | (#372870)

Seems to me if the government wants to keep making more laws...they should start making more laws protecting fair use. i.e. you cannot discontinue service to users if their actions do not violate fair use. Under a law like this, CDDB could be held accountable for disallowing users of Grip and any other ripping/burning software that are legal in and of themselves.

God forbid, of course, that the US might actually pass a law protecting consumers.


FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network

Re:This makes me mad. But alternates exist. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372871)

"Internet-contributed"? NO!!!

"End-user contributed" is a better term. I donated time, database entries, and code. Now I have to donate money to access the same CD's for which I typed the titles in years ago?? Grrr...

(Yes, I'm THAT old!)

I'll agree to contribute to a project like freeCDDB as long as they agree never to attempt to sell what I contribute. As I watch years-old projects turn into money-making ventures (CDDB, BIND, Gnapster), (not to mention the patent frenzy of recent) I begin to wonder if license agreements should be rewritten to include protection for contributors of code/data for the projects.

Re:FreeDB and CDDB (2)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 13 years ago | (#372874)

If CDDB merged with FreeDB and offered a free service, how would they make money? For better or worse (mostly worse), CDDB is a for-profit operation.

The point of having two is that we can choose to use the free one, instead of supporting people who took publicly contributed data and made it proprietary.

Another CDDB alternative... (3)

chrisbolt (11273) | more than 13 years ago | (#372876)

...is MusicBrainz [musicbrainz.org] . They are currently supported by FreeAmp and the API, server, and the actual database are all open. Modifications and updates to the database are done with a moderation system, and if your suggested change gets five unanimous Yes votes, it is automatically committed to the database. Check it out.

Re:Gracenote has freeware license (2)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#372877)

What right do they have to impose any condition on the use of the information they stole (by taking the information ostensibly to provide a free service) from the Internet community?

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

crashnbur (127738) | more than 13 years ago | (#372878)

I've never been to FreeBD.org. Is it any good? :-)

Re:Economics of running a free, online DB? (2)

modecx (130548) | more than 13 years ago | (#372879)

I'd be willing to contribute stuff/money to FreeDB, to help the costs issue. I'm by no means rich, but it they asked, I'd likely toss something their way. If they setup a Paypal account, or somesuch, I imagine that many others would be willing to help keep a community supported service alive.

Re:Hmmmm... (5)

WNight (23683) | more than 13 years ago | (#372881)

Why not set up a site that proxies CDDB queries. Point all the programs that ARE affected to this site, it generates CDDB requests that appear to come from programs that CDDB allows.

And no, I don't consider it cheating, theft, or underhanded in any way. CDDB lied to the community about the purpose of the DB, enlisted help under false pretenses, and then locked off access to a DB that many people had helped to create.

If we have to change an identifier in a query to get around their fraudulent business model it sounds good to me.

Fucking assholes who're willing to sell out everyone else just for a buck...

Forget wondering if other Linux apps registered (2)

chabotc (22496) | more than 13 years ago | (#372882)

If you go to their web page and search for:
Linux/Unix, All applications that encode/play mp3
the search form kindly informs you:

"For Unix/Linux:
There are no players that meet that description."

In other words, use linux? switch to FreeDB please :)

I hope this will put a dent in there buisness, and they might consider rethinking there buisness plan? Specialy after all the contreversy about who owns what, and didnt -I- give them the information they are charging for now?



-- Chris Chabot
"I dont suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it!"

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

crashnbur (127738) | more than 13 years ago | (#372884)

Was my idea that good? I was just speaking my mind. It's amazing what that can get you, sometimes. Speaking of mod points, I just acquired some. I'm still not 100% sure how that works. This is only my second time.

But enough of that. You do raise a good question. Who is willing to get this started? If I had the ability, I would. Hopefully enough eyes will see this to incite some form of rebellion somewhere. All wonderful new things have a beginning... maybe someone with the right talents will find this cause worthy of a little work, whether by my notion or otherwise.

XMMS also is no longer able to use CDDB (2)

Cerlyn (202990) | more than 13 years ago | (#372897)

As mentioned before, they are now checking if the application is "licensed." Since XMMS is not licensed with them, it no longer can access their database.

XMMS defaults to FreeDB, but in my experience CDDB has had a lot more of my discs than FreeDB does. So it's a shame I can no longer use it.

Times are going to be interesting; people will soon likely rewrite their CD database apps to allow users to arbitrarily specify the application's ID string. Lynx, wget and Konqueror already allow this when it comes to web pages. Gracenote's response to that behavior ought to be interesting.

Re:What they are doing to Grip is wrong but.... (1)

Manitcor (218753) | more than 13 years ago | (#372899)

I would be inclined to agree and I will be honest that thier agreement could use some refinement. Now before I am flamed I will tell you I belive it helps to achieve the prespective of both sides of the argument rather than rant on yours. Besides playing devils advocate can be more entertaining that everyone preaching to the quire(sp).

In order to maintain CDDB it requires dedicated servers (even if the software is free the hardware is not). A highspeed connection ($$$) and people to maintain and run the systems, considering the amount of users this system must also have 24/7/365 availbility once again more ($$$).

This money must come from somewhere so it comes from licisencing. Now perhaps Gracenote should be a not for profit company but they are not.

But you have to look at this from the POV of the owners of Gracenote: You spend years building a system and garnering user support working in your free time to make it work. Now after almsot 5 years you have built something that companys and people want to use and some will even pay for (Im sure they make loads of money of of AOL for Winamp). Now if you spent the last 5 years busting your tail on something and can finally get paid would you not try.

Being a big bad corp may not be the way to go but what my purpose here is to establish an understanding of both sides so that this is not a one sided argument.

As a profit company Gracenote and CDDB have corprate trademarks and Logos they must protect. So (IANAL) but I imagine some of the licesne agreement is designed to protect thier mark. Using 2 services may confuse a user and complain to CDDB about lacking in other services thier application might use (Belive there are people that would). These type of things are precived as devaluing thier brand.

Im not saying Gracenote should not change thier agreement I see quite a few places where it could be a more of a win win agreement (if you wish to discuss these just reply). But in order to evalute these changes and argue them with gracenote or anyone you have to have a base understanding on where it comes from.

Thats all I can think of right now. No Flames be intelligent.

Um....it's already been done... (1)

Squirrel Killer (23450) | more than 13 years ago | (#372902)

Try FreeDB [freedb.org] . Most of the CDDB aware apps can use it. Even the ones with asshole developers who think that you can't edit the registry in Windows.

-sk

Re:So what do you do? (1)

demon (1039) | more than 13 years ago | (#372904)

Because the company that is now Gracenote bought up the CDDB database and the rights to the protocol a few years back, and now they want every CD player that uses their DB to advertise for them (when doing a lookup, it's supposed to pop up a window with an ad for them). We *the community* put the data in their database, but they make the money, because they're hosting the servers. Sigh. It has nothing to do with preventing people from copying CDs - it's all about ads for them. That's all.
_____

Re:Gee...CDDB (1)

chowpalace (166596) | more than 13 years ago | (#372906)

Im inclined to agree, altho, I have to submit that when I submitted info... it wasnt with the caveat that they wouldnt license or sell my efforts. Further, I have a personal gripe with CDDB in that whenever I tried to enter in information regarding studio masters of Local Bands... I received a rather nasty message stating that It wasnt allowed... emails to CDDB inquiring as to why... afforded no true answer.... siiiggghhh

Re:Forget wondering if other Linux apps registered (1)

Inti (99884) | more than 13 years ago | (#372907)

And apparently BeOS falls into the Unix/Linux category, as witness this player, found by searching Unix/Linux on this page [gracenote.com] .

http://www.gracenote.com/players.html/OS=oth/type= plcd/player=Jukebox

They call it Unix/Linux, but really it's just 'other'


Claim your namespace.

Since when should EVERYTHING be free? (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372908)

You idiots! All you /. people ever scream is FREE FREE FREE. You want the world and you don't want to pay for it. I want a free OS - I want free music - I want a free database. Well, FU all - someone has to write the OS - someone has to write and perform the music - someone has to setup and maintain the databases (as well as machines, Internet connectivity, etc.)

All of these things take resources - time, and money particularly. If there are people out there willing to do these things out of the goodness of their heart - so be it. But you should be GRATEFUL that you can run an OS (Linux) that is free. You should *not* however EXPECT it. If you want it free - then YOU setup a DB - YOU write an OS - and YOU start writing and performing songs for free.

If people (corporations) have the resources and they feel they can break even, or even make money by charging people, they would. These are called *services*. They are a primary part of our society and our economy. There are goods and services. Why does everyone on /. think that all services related to computers should be free? You don't expect to get a haircut for free do you? (Maybe you do...but then what kind of quality do you expect?)

The notion seems to be that software and data, in any form, should be free. In reality, software and data crosses that fine line between goods and services. You are really paying for the service of someone to write the software / create the data (songs, etc). But since it only has to be written once, the cost is spread over all the people who buy it. Either way, in the days before computers, neither goods nor services were free. So why should the gray area in between all of a sudden be FREE?

Bottom line: CDDB runs a service. It is not a free service. Deal with it. Companies who create commercial ripping software are willing to pay for the license, so they don't have to rely on a free service such as FreeDB. If they pay for a service, they can expect a certain level of reliability (uptime, and accuracy should be expected). This is worth something to them - and they pay for it. They, in turn, pass the cost down to you when you buy their software. If DB reliability and accuracy aren't a concern to you, use FreeDB. Communities are great, but they can't rule like good old fashion supply and demand can. Russia proved that very well.

Buy a license or don't. I don't care. But don't bitch about companies that are just following simple supply and demand.

Who's going to pay for it? (3)

tswinzig (210999) | more than 13 years ago | (#372911)

Werd to free music. Werd to free information. Werd to the people.

Werd to the fact that running an internet resource costs money.

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372912)

FreeBD boasts a 15% speed increase over Linx and Solars at serving static webpages, hell even some of its linx-emulatin mode apps are faster than on a native Linx system. I happen to prefer OpenBD myself, as it's much more secure right out of the box, and I still have access to /usr/pots.

What they are doing to Grip is wrong but.... (2)

Manitcor (218753) | more than 13 years ago | (#372933)

I'd like to make a few points here. According to the CDDB lic Grip should have free access to the DB with out cost to anyone.

This is the Non-Commercial License and Database Access Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully. It permits non-commercial use of the Gracenote CDDB® SDK with certain types of computer software applications listed on Schedule B, referred to as a Licensed Application.

Now if you are a commerical user CDDB will charge you if you make money off your app basiclly CDDB wants a cut. Honestly I cant blame them I run some servers myself and I imagine keeping a large datbase running with all those users AIN'T cheap.

Now about CDDB2. The orignal database was the one that the users created. CDDB2 being the new version is supposed to have added support for not just song names and artists but lyrics and a bunch of extras that are explained here. [cddb.com]

As for whats happening to GRIP its a bum deal. Being an open source project the creator is obvisouly making no money off his project. Which in reality may mean that CDDB broke thier contract and that they may be open to a court case (IANAL).

From the looks of it Grip was probaly removed becasue of the type of software it is however last time I checked it is still not wrong to rip a CD and make MP3s but who knows what tommorw will bring.

For a detialed version of the FREE agreement click here. [gracenote.com]

Don't kill me for spelling im lazy!

Re:FreeDB and CDDB (1)

bluephone (200451) | more than 13 years ago | (#372934)

CDDB used to be free. Then they decided to screw everyone who donated time and energy to make them what they are, and charge money to software developers to be able to use the CDDB service. So, in revolt, FreeDB was created. THAT'S why we have two, and why we should ALWAYS have a choice in anything, because eventually one will do something you don't like, and you can change.

Alternatives are GOOD.

--

This is a story??? (2)

Chanc_Gorkon (94133) | more than 13 years ago | (#372935)

I don't belive this got posted. Yeah it's stupid that CDDB doesn't work with grip, but afaik, it does use freedb as a default. I just ripped a track a minute ago. I guess it is news for nerds, but not very important......

Re:Economics of running a free, online DB? (1)

tswinzig (210999) | more than 13 years ago | (#372936)

It's real simple. It costs money to run an online service, and the more popular it becomes, the more it costs. Eventually the cost of running it will outweigh the gain for the person(s) doing it.

submit false data anyone? (3)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 13 years ago | (#372937)

just a thought. is cddb still allowing users to submit data? if so wouldnt it be nice if everyone submitted false data. a database full of bad data doesnt really sell that well.

use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that

Re:Economics of running a free, online DB? (3)

Alex Belits (437) | more than 13 years ago | (#372938)

There is no "economics" involved -- running a free service is CHEAP if you have anything else on a colocated server at some ISP. If it isn't cheap for you, look for someone for whom it is, and very likely he will do that.

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (4)

trapperlake (307211) | more than 13 years ago | (#372939)

Well yes and no.

The real value to CDDB in particular is that they have accumulated a watershed of TOC's to CD's in the world.

When you insert that disc, it's not just dumb luck that CDDB knows it's one disc from another. As you all probably know the same "release title" can have different TOC's due to the disc mastering and pressing process.

The quaility of the CDDB service is that you all have helped make it a deep watershed of TOC inventory for every title.

In the game of matching a CD to it's meta data it's important to realize that the signature of the track offsets (it's Table Of Contents) varies from pressing to pressing. If CDDB is able to aquire the unique TOC's of the same CD release then they are better in position to give accurate data once the next query comes for it.

And so on.. so pretty soon for any given CD title, like Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon (which has over 100 different TOC's from all the pressings that it has had over the years) you're bound to be farily high on rate of successful query..

Which is what the QOS issue is about too.

CDDB has this watershed of data, and they are going to leverage it to it's maximum, which means makign deals with software/service vendors to get revenue for every player/service deal is available.

In the mean time it would be really great to just re-aim your player/system to freedb and use them.

Let freedb accumulate their database to actually be competitive with CDDB in the spirit of collecting the most CD meta data that is out there. The end result should hopefully be a viable alternative to CDDB which is free, open and really out of reach of any MPAA or similar forces.

The information is free, and needs to remain free.

This is possible and quite easy to do. Why more Napster users aren't installing a freedb plugin that will automatically "snarf" up the cd meta data from their own disc and send it to freedb is interesting.. Why people using Napster aren't already on the bandwagon is interestin. Millions of Napster users all with a plugin to feed the freedb database? Nice.

Re:Interesting (1)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#372941)

Oh, I wasn't saying they weren't slime. Is this really a surprise from a company that forbids the software companies that do pay to subscribe to their service from also accessing other ones, that they might refuse to share their database with competitors they are trying to cut out other ways? "We settled that, now we're dickering over the price".

"Contributor Beware", is the message. Don't contribute your time to adding to databases that refuse to guarantee your work will not be appropriated for their own profit.

Hey, maybe Gracenote now owes those contributors to it's service minimum wage, like AOL "Volunteers" are suing for? Wouldn't that be a laugh?

Pollute the CDDB (2)

John Jorsett (171560) | more than 13 years ago | (#372942)

Removing the CDDB would cause a large number of people to input their own names with all the associated inconsistancies, making filtering all the more difficult.

Better yet, pollute the CDDB with alternative names. CDDB identifies CDs based on the number of tracks and their playtimes. Most of the time this is unique to a CD, but every once in a while you'll be asked to select which CD is the one in question. This is because two CDs happen to have identical numbers of tracks with identical playtimes. So, how about we start making up alternative names ('Meta11ica' is an earlier example cited on SlashDot) and submitting them to CDDB. Then when someone is ripping a CD, they can easily select one of the alternative spellings for the filenaming. This also has the salutatory effect of hosing the CDDB, which appears to be richly deserved.

Re:Gracenote has freeware license (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 13 years ago | (#372943)

Stole? You mean they broke into your house while you were on vacation, rifled through your CD collection, and took down all the info they needed?
--

A reminder that abcde works with FreeDB (2)

rcw-home (122017) | more than 13 years ago | (#372944)

This affects abcde [lly.org] too. Put this in your abcde.conf to get it to use FreeDB:

CDDBURL=http://freedb.freedb.org/~cddb/cddb.cgi

Oh, and if you simply have to use abcde with Gracenote's database, do this search and replace:
s/$NAME+$VERSION/xmcd+fuckyougracenote/

Abcde's default database will change to FreeDB in the next release.

Re:Since when should EVERYTHING be free? (2)

dirty (13560) | more than 13 years ago | (#372965)

CDDB should be free for one specific reason. The database was created by the users when it was free. IMHO this is blatent theft.

Re:Screw them anyways, use freedb.org. (1)

dkwright (316655) | more than 13 years ago | (#372966)

They're not "Nazis". They've just chosen to go down a path we don't like. Fortunately, there is the alternative of freedb. And if there weren't, some noble soul would soon set one up.
We shouldn't vilify those who seek to make money off of services. They're free to do so. And we're free to go to a free site. And to use free software that goes to a free site. Amen.

Re:Gee... (2)

tswinzig (210999) | more than 13 years ago | (#372967)

The problem is that they started out a community-based collection of title information that was painstakingly entered by thousands of users in the belief that they wouldn't pull something like this.

Funny, I don't remember ever being promised anything by gracenote. I got way more from them then they ever got from me. I input the CD's I found that were not there, but most of the time I downloaded from them. I received a service from them in exchange for helping them build up their database. That was the deal.

Where exactly did it say you get access to CDDB for free, forever, because you simply typed out the names of songs that someone else wrote?

What Gracenote did is essentially the same as the Red Cross declaring itself a for-profit agency and charging for its services, while keeping all the donations made for it while it was a non-profit.

A horrible analogy. What gracenote did was start charging for a useful service in the only way it can -- hitting the application builders that enhance their programs with its functionality.

I am looking forward to the day they go out of business and/or are made irrelevant by free alternatives.

Please study economics. These "free" alternatives are only free to YOU, not to the person running them. Do you think internet bandwidth and hardware resources grow on trees? Why don't you offer to pay a monthly service fee to FreeDB to help?

Nah, you just want something for nothing.

And I hope the executive scum responsible for the decision die a slow, painful death. But I'm not bitter.

Nope, you're just SELFISH.

-thomas

Bait and Switch (2)

GPFCharlie (98543) | more than 13 years ago | (#372968)

This one really peeved me. I use Notify CD Player, a wonderful little Windows app that hasn't rev'd in 2 years but still works fine on Win2K. It's well designed, unobtrusive, and requires minimal resources.

Today when I get this licensing error, I check the list of "approved" CDDB 1 readers for Windows, and Notify CD Player is listed! So then I send e-mail to their listed contact.

I get a polite but firm "fuck you". When I go to reply to them that they still have it listed as a "supported" application, surprise!, it's been removed.

Since I can't seem to contact the orignial developer, I guess I'll switch to the other database, but this is really fucking annoying.

It would be a shame... (1)

shokk (187512) | more than 13 years ago | (#372969)

...if some people were to get together a break into cddb and destroy their database and make sure their site was down for a long time. They would see what else people on the Internet could do when they contribute to something.

Not all unlicensed apps are blocked...yet (1)

LRJ (71361) | more than 13 years ago | (#372970)

I don't want to name the app that I am using for fear of having it blocked while I'm in the middle of recording my entire CD collection, but I know that at least one XWindows program that uses CDDB (and isn't on their list of 'approved' applications) can still access CDDB.

mirrors. (2)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 13 years ago | (#372971)

this is like any big project that is used by alot of people. the kernel for example has hundreds of mirrors. in fact i'm looking at freedb right now to see if i can setup a mirror on our server at school.

use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that

Getting involved... ISPs? (1)

crashnbur (127738) | more than 13 years ago | (#372972)

This is taking off from my first response to this article [slashdot.org] .

We pay for cable, we see baseball games on TV. Baseball teams pay for the coverage.

We pay for Internet, we hear music through the internet. Music industry bitches for the increase in sales, claiming that they are losing money as a result.

The way I see it, the RIAA has no room to bitch about anything, and if they do, it has nothing to do with the people, but the ISPs. Depending on the amount of bandwidth used on Napster's service on certain ISPs, I don't see any huge problem with the RIAA asking for money from certain ISPs for "losing" money. (Then again, I still don't see where the RIAA is "losing" money.) Still, this would only incite a rise in the price for the average person to get online, which would still be a nuissance.

But tell me, would a very slight increase in price be worth the ability to use Napster? I say services such as @home could invoke a small fee to allow connections to Napster, or those that don't pay the extra fee can have the servers blocked. I don't see why it should be any more than a couple bucks per month, but any ISP would make it more than necessary.

These are very loose ideas. Feel free to poke and probe them.

A better idea--put it on Freenet. (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#372973)

Freenet was designed for this kind of stuff...put it on Freenet, give Freenet it's first real app. At the same time we guarantee that the database can't be "cease & desisted" out of existance due to Freenet's uncensorable nature.

Re:Screw them anyways, use freedb.org. (1)

dkwright (316655) | more than 13 years ago | (#372974)

That's a good point and it is bad behavior on CDDB's part. I still object to calling them Nazi's, though.

just screw em, use freedb.org (1)

Splork (13498) | more than 13 years ago | (#372975)

I just ran into this today trying to use abcde on debian to rip a cd and getting album name and song titles of the cddb.com "unlicensed software" url. whatever. Just point your programs to use http://freedb.org/cddb/cddb.cgi instead.

If cddb wants to shun non-paying clients, go for it, we haven't paid for our clients.

Presumably they are getting money from microsoft so that future versions of windows will still use them or something equally stupid. (win98+ came with some cddb support in its player AFAIK).

Also, if anyone has a player that does work with cddb, they should update it to submit all entries to freedb.org if freedb doesn't already have them.

Why get mad when you can get even (5)

Coward Anonymous (110649) | more than 13 years ago | (#372976)

do they still allow additions and fixes to the DB? start fixin' it wrong... Enough mad people get even and no one will use such an ureliable service anymore.

Screw them anyways, use freedb.org. (5)

meldroc (21783) | more than 13 years ago | (#372979)

Set your CDDB apps to access www.freedb.org instead. No licensing or patenting nazis there.

In kscd (my CD player of choice) simply click on the preferences button, set your CDDB server to "www.freedb.org http 80 /~cddb/cddb.cgi". Other CD players should have similar configuration procedures.

Problem solved.

Database copyright issues (3)

cameldrv (53081) | more than 13 years ago | (#372980)

I know that there was a bill in congress to change the law on this a couple of years back, but at least as of a few years ago, it was completely legal to copy a database wholesale, as it did not constitute a creative work. CDDB is clearly not a creative work, so perhaps someone can just setup a sneaky bot to download their entire database and move it to FreeDB.

Re:Gee... (5)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#372982)

The problem is that they started out a community-based collection of title information that was painstakingly entered by thousands of users in the belief that they wouldn't pull something like this.

What Gracenote did is essentially the same as the Red Cross declaring itself a for-profit agency and charging for its services, while keeping all the donations made for it while it was a non-profit.

I am looking forward to the day they go out of business and/or are made irrelevant by free alternatives. And I hope the executive scum responsible for the decision die a slow, painful death. But I'm not bitter.

freedb (1)

westrick (245730) | more than 13 years ago | (#372985)

There is a free alternative.
freedb [freedb.org]
Use it. Add to it.

Heh... (4)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 13 years ago | (#372990)

Grip has been using freecddb for as long as I've been using it, and that's where I've been sending all my CD info when I run across the rare one that they don't already have in the database.

those (1)

log0n (18224) | more than 13 years ago | (#372995)

BASTARDS!!!

bleh

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

}{avoc (90632) | more than 13 years ago | (#372996)

If only I hadn't spent my last mod points 3 articles ago. The idea is excellent, and I would gladly enter the information for all my CDs by hand. Even big, scary CDs like Short Music for Short People (101 tracks). Now, the real question is, who wants to get this started?

Re:Gee... (1)

tswinzig (210999) | more than 13 years ago | (#373001)

They're charging a fee for our data. There was no 'data submitted automatically becomes the property of..' bullshit. They relicensed our intellectual property without notification or permission.

Boy you've got some gall!

You don't own the names of the songs you entered -- the artists that wrote the songs do, if anybody.

Why can't you people get this simple fact through your head: It was an exchange of services. You typed in the rare CD's that were missing, in exchange, you got most or all of the CD information from their database for NO CHARGE.

Only to freeloaders does this not sound like a great deal.

Re:Database copyright issues (2)

aiken_d (127097) | more than 13 years ago | (#373002)

There certainly was a bill to strengthen protection for databases, but according to Bitlaw [bitlaw.com] , databases are protected when they are a compilation that adds value by selecting, arranging, or coordinating the underlying information. A compilation is a value-added coallation of what may themselves be basic facts.

It's important to understand, as that same article mentions, that the underlying data itself is not protected. It's the compilation itself. CDDB certainly counts as a compilation of data, even if they are turning out to be a bunch of greedy f*cks.

-b

Re:The CDDB is a lot like Napster, or should be. (1)

crashnbur (127738) | more than 13 years ago | (#373003)

If I weren't the person you were responding to, I would moderate you up. Very nice analysis. I cannot really respond in any other way.

XMCD and others (2)

z4ce (67861) | more than 13 years ago | (#373004)

Aparently XMCD and a few other GPL clients have licenses to use the CDDB. Why not just use their license and call grip a derivitive of XMCD?

The same damn loosers (2)

tweek (18111) | more than 13 years ago | (#373005)

Gracenote are the same fuckers (sorry but I'm just pissed now ) who shut down lyrics.ch. I really am getting tired of people fucking up the internet. I think all the big corporations are pissed now that the bubble has burst and are looking for any way possible to get money back. I still say something like Hak Nam (Idoru) or the Walled City (All Tommorow's Party) is the only thing that's going to save those of us who have been using the internet longer than these punkass corporations. Maybe freenet is the answer.

Now everyone make sure you support FreeDB and tell these bastards that we don't need them.

Re:Since when should EVERYTHING be free? (1)

neuromystical (313568) | more than 13 years ago | (#373006)

HMMM, This person seems to say a lot about all the people on /. wanting things for free, /. is free and you are using it! :) It would suck is /. was not free, it would not exist, CDDB would not have existed without it being free for all the people to enter the data for its database, hmm, using the people then backfiring it to them as well. Seems to me this will just cause CDDB to fall by another service which may be created by the talents of /. freebies reading the site! :) Happy /. days!!!

Re:Gee... (4)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#373007)

Funny, I don't remember ever being promised anything by gracenote. I got way more from them then they ever got from me. I input the CD's I found that were not there, but most of the time I downloaded from them. I received a service from them in exchange for helping them build up their database. That was the deal.

Your words bely an apparent unfamiliary with the history of CDDB (now Gracenote). At its inception, the CDDB software and database were under the GPL. Thus, it was quite reasonable for submitters to infer that their submissions would remain free.

Where exactly did it say you get access to CDDB for free, forever, because you simply typed out the names of songs that someone else wrote?

I didn't say that anyone should have "access to CDDB free, forever, just because . . ." Gracenote should be compelled to release all tracks provided by users to the public domain, however. Not the same thing. This remedy wouldn't require that they run servers "in perpetuity" (as another posted said).

A horrible analogy. What gracenote did was start charging for a useful service in the only way it can -- hitting the application builders that enhance their programs with its functionality.

The analogy is a very good one. Your saying it is horrible doesn't make it so. Had they announced plans to charge up front, no reasonable person would have had an issue with their actions. As in the hypothetical Red Cross example, this wasn't the case.

Please study economics. These "free" alternatives are only free to YOU, not to the person running them. Do you think internet bandwidth and hardware resources grow on trees? Why don't you offer to pay a monthly service fee to FreeDB to help? Nah, you just want something for nothing.

Thank you for that oh-so-enlightened ad hominem attack and "econ in a nutshell," Dr. Friedman. It dovetails so well with the rest of your completely specious argument. I don't feel the need to wear my education on my sleeve. With regard to your point about free services being unable to exist without revenue, gosh--I can't imagine that there could have been any internet at all before all that commericalization arrived. (That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't readily apparent.)

Nope, you're just SELFISH.

Thanks again.

Mirror the database! (3)

alewando (854) | more than 13 years ago | (#373011)

If we keep mirroring the database, then we'll never be fully under their thumb. Download a copy from one of the existing mirrors [freedb.org] , and keep the movement alive.

use freedb (1)

loraksus (171574) | more than 13 years ago | (#373013)

fuck cddb - the db there is wrong about 25% of the time anyways.

though it pisses me off that most, if not all cddb entries were done by people on their own time. Blah - guess I'm switching tonight.

Hope cddb doesn't sue freedb over some bs patent thing...
oh.. for those who want to switch... change the CDDB server to
www.freedb.org http port 80 /~cddb/cddb.cgi

shouts.
Fuck cddb!


I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.

Re:Interesting (1)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#373021)

A remarkable proposal... penalize people who provide a service for free by forcing them to continue it in perpetuity.

I can only wonder, does this apply to your own free website, if you have one? Should you (and all others with such sites) be required to keep shelling out money to whoever is hosting those websites, even when you (they) do not want to anymore?

Re:Screw them anyways, use freedb.org. (2)

hetfield (129762) | more than 13 years ago | (#373023)

Or you can use freedb.freedb.org:888

--

You can still use CDDB.com if you want (2)

BeBoxer (14448) | more than 13 years ago | (#373029)

It's possible for the developer of a free client to get a license to use the commercial server. You just have to agree to this itty bitty license. [gracenote.com] All 14 paragraphs and four schedules of it. If anybody can figure out how to write a Linux client that adheres to this monster of a license is truely a master of both code and law.

Re:What they are doing to Grip is wrong but.... (1)

Thr34d (42275) | more than 13 years ago | (#373031)

tut tut tut, if only it were true. From this link [cddb.com] .

Revenue includes such income as sales, licensing, or shareware fees; upgrade or support fees; or revenue from advertising, links, or e-commerce on a web page or site that provides a link from which the application can be downloaded.

So since you download greip from a site with a banner ad that presumeably they recieve revenue from Grip would be considered a commercial user based on CDDB's definition.

Ah well, there's FreeDB. :-)

Re:Gracenote has freeware license (1)

Pituritus Ani (247728) | more than 13 years ago | (#373035)

No, silly :). Stole, as in (from Webster's Third New International Dictionary): "4 g : to appropriate entirely to oneself or beyond one's proper share".

!!! (1)

The_Messenger (110966) | more than 13 years ago | (#373036)

A commercial entity demanding compensation for a quality service? Shocking!

--

Re:Who's going to pay for it? (1)

the unbeliever (201915) | more than 13 years ago | (#373037)

Werd to free music. Werd to free information. Werd to the people.

Werd to the fact that running an internet resource costs money.

Werd to the fact that the CDDB was created by the users, ostensibly for the users, and now the creators of the database cannot use it.

the unbeliever
aim:dasubergeek99
yahoo!:blackrose91
ICQ:1741281

Re:Hmmmm... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#373038)

Yeah, no shit. I think everybody out there that's ever used it that has had a CD that didn't come up in it has probly taken the time to enter the data and submit it.

That's pretty fucked up. Collect data under the false pretense that it's free for everybody else to grab from for a few years then charge for people to get at the data as soon as you have a database that would be hard to compete with.

Personally, I don't use it at all anymore, used to years ago before it was popular (and it didn't have half the CDs that I put in my player :P ) but I really hope someone comes out with patches for any programs that are blocked to make them look like a program that isn't.

Anybody that fucking gets assloads of information for free, from people that think it's going to be available for free, deserves to be bent over by someone with a HUGE....

yeah, anyway.....

Re:Heh... (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#373041)

The first version I used (?) had cddb as default. Later versions seem to have switched.

The really neat thing (haven't done in a while) is to set free as the primary, cd as the secondary. So, if it's not at free, they get it from cd, courtesy of me:)

Re:Gee... (4)

technos (73414) | more than 13 years ago | (#373046)

They're charging a fee for our data. There was no 'data submitted automatically becomes the property of..' bullshit. They relicensed our intellectual property without notification or permission.

So, I am hearby relicensing, sans notification, my submission of the CD hash and track information for all of the rereleases of the Elton John catalogue. Gracenote, you have 24 hours to pull these entries from your database or pay the newly instated license fee, which is a free license to the rest of the database for grip, mp3cddb, and any other remotly useful cddb application I have used recently but can't think of off the top of my head.

how bad is the license? (1)

Thrakkerzog (7580) | more than 13 years ago | (#373048)

How bad is the license? Has anyone actually looked at it?


-- Thrakkerzog
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