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Chinese Censors Accidentally Block Shanghai Index

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the the-stock-market-has-always-been-up dept.

China 345

New submitter Vulcan195 writes "Now this is amusing in so many ways ... Today (June 4, 1989 ... i.e. 6/4/89) is the 23rd anniversary of the Tiananmen Square crackdown. Naturally, the Chinese Censors were working overtime to block anything that made remote or oblique references to that event. Well, sometime during the day the Shanghai Composite Index dropped by 64.89 points; You can guess what happened next."

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345 comments

at least it wasn't a search-and-replace (5, Funny)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214925)

Much like the fate that befell Olympic runner Tyson Homosexual, the Shanghai Stock Exchange could've found itself falling Harmonious Society points today.

Re:at least it wasn't a search-and-replace (4, Funny)

identity0 (77976) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215095)

At least he wasn't made to be Nookd for a bonfire.

Re:at least it wasn't a search-and-replace (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215165)

However, as it was unknown to me and had become clear as of late, I have always been bootynude right from the very beginning!

My true power has always been apparent!

One fine day ... (2)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215659)

... the CPP gonna accidentally China !

Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

cryfreedomlove (929828) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214947)

Every discussion of Chinese censorship inevitably leads to posts about how the USA should get off it's high horse because it is just as bad. It is true that the USA has committed atrocities. Kent State, Jim Crow killings, Dresden, etc. The difference however, is that the USA reflects on its past in a much more transparent way than China does today. Come on China, it has been 23 years. Let's discuss this in an open way. You won't be able to hide it forever, especially because most Americans saw a lot of Tiananmen on TV.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215005)

Dresden was a legitimate military target. All infrastructure was a legitimate military target and all workers were in effect war workers so they were military targets.

WWII was a serious war, a Total War, not some UN police action designed to fail. It was literally an existential war which made thorough destruction of all Nazi capabilities a duty.

Germany initiated WWII and the population of Germany worked long and hard to prepare for and sustain that war to the bitter end.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215057)

Infrastructure and industry was a legitimate target, housing and historical buildings certainly not.

Re:Not like the USA (-1, Troll)

Spicy Nigger Cunt (2654787) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215113)

Infrastructure and industry was a legitimate target, housing and historical buildings certainly not.

Today, boys and girls, we learn to lick pussy juices. Damn it! That will be fun, because shit. Read it and masturbate with a beer bottle stuck in the butt (of course with a broken top). First, get your mother crazy horny. How do you do that? Now you can tie her down and finger her, but find a way. Now you smile, she should really be pleased that her pussy juice ran her legs. Now lick her legs gently from top to bottom, then tongue her pussy. Lay her down and eat out her love hole. then have your dad pull out his dick and bang you up the ass. Now all four of you get in bed and suck your fathers dick as your mother gently applies her tongue to your rectal areas to lick her gently and then leave a bloody Hickey on your Ass lips. Now Mom, Pop and you smear shit on little sister, now stick your cock in her cunt. The end.

Re:Not like the USA (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215335)

And what do you call this act?!?
The Aristocrats!

Re:Not like the USA (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215319)

Historical buildings owned by people with lots of wealth, and whom had no problems sharing that wealth with the Nazi war machine.

Valid target. Sorry.

Re:Not like the USA (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215503)

like those Jews in the forced labor camps? They were aiding the Nazi war machine, we should have bombed them too?

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215525)

Historical buildings owned by people with lots of wealth, and whom [sic] had no problems sharing that wealth with the Nazi war machine.

Problem was they hit the historical buildings owned by people with lots of wealth who had very grave misgivings about the Nazi war machine just as hard.

Valid target.

Yes pre-Nueremberg it was. By today's standards it would be judged a war crime.

Sorry.

You are not.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Charliemopps (1157495) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215325)

What the fuck are you talking about? It's insane what people think war is today. War is horrible, awful, terrible. All assets of a country you are at war at are legitimate targets. Babies, puppies, little old ladies. Anything that would stop the German people from trying to rule the world was a legitimate target. Imagine if the Nazis had won the war... Whole races of people could have been wiped off the face of the earth. Imagine if we had taken another 6 months to a year to defeat them and they had come up with their own atomic weapon and dropped it on London...

The very idea that there are "rules of war" is just stupid. War crimes are what the winners of a war charge the leadership of the losers so they can execute them in some semi-legal way.

The rules of engagement that the US military exercises are a token effort made by our leadership because our military is so ridiculously over equipped and the enemy is usually so completely out-classed that it costs us relatively little to avoid some of the more publicly distasteful practices. I promise you, if we ever got into a war with an enemy that was even remotely evenly matched to our military our rules of engagement would be out the window in a heartbeat. Would you shoot some strangers baby in the face if the alternative was that he would shoot your baby in the face? Of course you would. Now shut the fuck up.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

lorenlal (164133) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215391)

I completely disagree dude. There are rules to war.

1) Win. Do this in whatever way is necessary to preserve as much of your side as possible.
2) The winners decide how it gets written in history. They're in charge. They are the feel good side, and they dictate how the losers pay for what they did.
3) War criminals are the ones who lost. They got what they asked for. This is the true leadership risk of waging war. If you're the Generalissimo, and you lose, it's your head both figuratively and literally. The soldiers who survive may be tried, but the leaders will most certainly be.
3a) If you welcome the winners with open arms, you're more likely to be in good shape even if you're on the losing side... Assuming the tide doesn't turn and you end up a traitor.
3b) If you fight to the bitter end and lose... It's the bitter end.

Rules of engagement are an attempt to preserve the non-fighting population who will presumably welcome the victors with open arms. I believe it's more of an attempt to maximize follow-up stabilization attempts.

Yes, this is an over-simplification. Please understand that tongue is firmly planted in cheek, even if there's a bit of truthiness in there.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215411)

"It's insane what people think war is today."

Yeah, somehow people think war is legitimate.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Elldallan (901501) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215451)

Another reason that the US military "limits" itself with rules of war is that their leadership recognizes that the US has to keep existing in the political climate after a war. If the US military just went about steamrolling across Afghanistan/Iraq with no concern for civilians there would be huge political repercussions with possible sanctions as a result, not exactly what the US economy needs at the moment.
Another obvious complication with a "real" war is that it would with 100% certainty trigger WWIII and the obliteration of mankind as the countries capable of fighting on similar terms is pretty much limited to Europe, Russia, China, India, Japan and maybe few others and any actions against any one of those nations would trigger a chain reaction that would eventually pull every major industrialized nation into the war.

Re:Not like the USA (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215745)

All assets of a country you are at war at are legitimate targets. Babies, puppies, little old ladies.

And yet both sides on the Western Front in Europe managed to abide more-or-less by the Geneva convention. They fed and sheltered captured enemy troops, when it would have been more efficient to simply shoot them. In that sense, it wasn't a total war: they still followed rules to mitigate the worst effects of war on the human condition.

That's why we can claim the moral high ground when someone flies an aircraft into a building filled with thousands of civilians. And why we'll lose it, if we ever do the same thing.

Re:Not like the USA (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215817)

One thing that often does not get mentioned in these discussions of world war ii is what the allies demanded as conditions for peace. The plan was to put all the german men in forced labor camps, destroy all institutions of higher learning, and redistribute the land to the neighboring countries. These were the British demands for peace made public in an editorial in the times of London 2 days after the declaration of war. The allied plan got eventually formalized as the morgenthau plan, with a demand for unconditional surrender (as in give up your weapons and no guarantees are made).

No matter whether things seemed to go in favour or against the allies, they never retreated from these demands until 2 years after the end of the war.

If you put as conditions for peace terms that are not beneficial for either the leaders or the people of a country, and every choice that they have favors continuing to fight, you have taken the responsibility from their hands into yours.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215961)

You are welcome to conduct war like a savage if you want. The rest of us will conduct war in as civilized a fashion as possible. War is already bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Informative)

JoshuaZ (1134087) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215421)

You are possibly assuming there a degree of targeting accuracy which they didn't have. Also, many historical building had military import (such as historic railway stations used for moving supplies). Keep in mind in World War II, the accuracy of bombing was so poor that they sometimes bombed the wrong city. If you had a factory or the like in the middle of an area, that wasn't going to help. The more serious problem with Dresden was that arguably they really were targeting civilians. There is some complexity involved though- it isn't clear that the laws of war had yet reached a consensus at that point. See http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jpcl.htm [icrc.org] for some relevant points. There's a decent argument also that the presence of factories and the presence of military units stationed in and around Dresden made it a legitimate target. George Marshall made an inquiry that came to that conclusion, but the fact that the US military thought an inquiry was necessary does reflect strongly on the questionable nature of the decision. The argument that the bombing was not justified has been most strongly argued by Alexander McKee who is a historian who has written a fair bit on this subject. Overall, I'd say that McKee's analysis is a strong but not convincing case (although this is also going off my memory of the last time I looked into this subject in detail which was around 5 or 6 years ago).

Re:Not like the USA (1)

mrbester (200927) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215725)

"The more serious problem with Dresden was that arguably they really were targeting civilians."

Same as Coventry. Difference being Churchill knew about the attack thanks to intercepted messages but had to let it happen so the Germans didn't know we had cracked their codes. That incentive for revenge, plus the fact that Dresden was pretty much the only large city not yet hit made it a pretty tempting target.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215671)

The Natzi's opend that pandora's box first by bombing London. If the enemy is doing it to your people, then they can't complain about the same reponse.

Re:Not like the USA (3, Insightful)

JoshuaZ (1134087) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215747)

Whether someone can "complain" about something doesn't have much to do with whether it is moral. Just because another government is targeting your civilian population doesn't magically make it moral to target their civilians, especially when many of them aren't even in favor of the government in question.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215311)

One can argue whether Dresden was or was not a legitimate military target, but even if it was, it doesn't automatically make targeting it justifiable. An ammo stash on the roof of a hospital is also a legitimate military target, but if the enemy is already crippled to the point where he is unable to use that stash to any meaningful effect, targeting it just because you can - with all the ensuing civilian casualties - is morally wrong.

For reference, by the time of Dresden firebombing, Soviet troops were already at Oder, within 50 miles from Berlin, for over a week. In fact, Soviets could have likely ended the war right there and then if they kept marching on; they just decided to play it safe.

Re:Not like the USA (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215425)

An ammo stash on the roof of a hospital is also a legitimate military target, but if the enemy is already crippled to the point where he is unable to use that stash to any meaningful effect, targeting it just because you can - with all the ensuing civilian casualties - is morally wrong.

Oh. You're one of them

Hypothetical: I slap your face, then spin around so I'm facing away from you. Can you hit me back?

a) Sure- you hit me first.

b) No, of course not- you're facing away from me, not even attacking (well, anymore).

Just because the enemy is not in a position to fight right that second, doesn't mean they aren't still the enemy.

Re:Not like the USA (4, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215533)

Civilians in the hospital aren't the enemy, though.

Note that I didn't say that it's always wrong to strike military targets when there is a chance (or even a certainty) of collateral damage. There are certainly circumstances where that is the best available choice, and there are certainly more such circumstances in an all-out war such as WW2. This is something that has to be judged on a case by case basis. But when you disregard any thoughts about the morality of your actions, just because the victims belong to some abstract class titled "enemy" (even when in reality they are just scared kids), that's unequivocally evil.

If it makes me one of "them", whoever that is, then I'm in a good company.

Re:Not like the USA (1, Redundant)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215655)

And what If I am hiding my nuke (it is known to be there, not just thought to be there for this hypothetical) in the hospital knowing you wont attack said hospital? is it ok to attack it than?

Re:Not like the USA (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215793)

Yes.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215557)

Oh your one of them,
    your friend slaps someone else then quickly turns around, you yell at them to look out because the other guy is about to hit them. Other guy kills you because you jumped into the fight.

  Dresden was only marginally a military target, we bombed it for a very simple reason: to crush German morale. Yes, the terrorists have won, for they are us.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Cederic (9623) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215567)

Yes, but what's the purpose of war? It's not to kill the enemy, it's not to disable their infrastructure, it's not to reduce their ammunition supplies.

Clausewitz suggested the purpose is the imposition of your will on another. Killing civilians in this day and age reduces your chances of successfully imposing your will, so it's counter-productive, for all the damage you may cause to the enemy.

Think bigger picture.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215861)

Do certainly think this way. Before the UN London was the world capital and the largest empire in world history had just failed. Imagine a concerted bombing of ny or dc and then you might get close. It's called "total" war for a reason

Re:Not like the USA (1)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215631)

Many people hide things in civilian zones for the very reasons that they know that in general, we wont attack said zones.

Think about it, if you know that the countryt attacking you says some zone is off limits, where are you going to stash your most valuable intel/people/ammo etc?

Re:Not like the USA (0)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215755)

"In fact, Soviets could have likely ended the war right there and then if they kept marching on; they just decided to play it safe."

Since the Soviets had lost about TEN MILLION troops and the Germans were fighting desperately to buy time for refugees to evacuate, it wasn't just "playing it safe".

Your priorities are revealing in that your only concern is for Germans.

Germany had killed tens of millions of people. It's not sane to expect the countries they attacked to quibble over collateral damage. The whole premise of "war" is that "enemy" lives are worth less than "own side" lives and that it's absurd to sacrifice yours to save theirs.

Re:Not like the USA (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215815)

Since the Soviets had lost about TEN MILLION troops and the Germans were fighting desperately to buy time for refugees to evacuate, it wasn't just "playing it safe".

Soviets lost ten million troops in the first two years of the war. By February '45, the tables were decidedly turned. Heck, in the Vistula-Oder offensive, Germans had lost 150k people taken prisoner (and an uncertain amount, but certainly more, dead), for the Soviet 40k KIA + MIA.

Your priorities are revealing in that your only concern is for Germans.

I don't know what strawman you have built up as my priorities; it's especially puzzling to me since my off-tangent remark about the offensive you somehow took for the main point of my argument, and saw some priorities in it? There were certainly none implied.

Anyway, myself being Russian, and one of my grandfathers having fought in that war, I am most certainly biased - but not in the way you seem to imply. If you are trying to be offensive, you have certainly succeeded.

Germany had killed tens of millions of people. It's not sane to expect the countries they attacked to quibble over collateral damage. The whole premise of "war" is that "enemy" lives are worth less than "own side" lives and that it's absurd to sacrifice yours to save theirs.

Is it okay to sacrifice a thousand of "theirs" to save one of "yours"? Ten thousand? A million? At which point do you say it's enough?

Most certainly, the most efficient way to deal with Germany once and for all in 1945 would have been to massacre them completely - firebombings, artillery, whatever. No people, no problem, right? Why leave anyone alive if you know that any living German may be a Werwolf member who'll shoot you in the back as soon as you turn away?

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215977)

Dresden was a number of things and in particular it was a crucial node of the road system at that point. Leveling it was a good call.

"ended the war right there and then if they kept marching on; they just decided to play it safe."

To repeat, the practical point in war is to make the /other/ son of a bitch die for his country.

"safe" ... look up the goddamn casualties of that period. You're just being an asshole now. That wasn't some fucking tv show.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Elldallan (901501) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215389)

Soooo, the attacks on the Pentagon and WTC were also legitimate targets? After all All Qaeda considers itself to be at "total war" with the United States(as well as a lot of other people/nations).
Because from a military point of view there is absolutely no real difference(except that the firebombings was obviously on a much larger scale), The Pentagon is the headquarters of the US military(so arguably a legitimate military target under any circumstances) and the World Trade Center had considerable importance for the economical infrastructure.
They carried the same purpose, to demoralize the nation by striking terror in the population, nothing else because if you want to bomb factories or other infrastructure there are much more effective ways to accomplish that.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215581)

Soooo, the attacks on the Pentagon and WTC were also legitimate targets? After all All Qaeda considers itself to be at "total war" with the United States(as well as a lot of other people/nations).

There are a couple ways to look at it. The Pentagon was a valid military target in a declared war with the United States. The passengers on the planes and the civilians in the twin towers were not. They obviously thought those were all valid targets. Even so, there are those who think that if they believe they're fighting a Total War against the United States, then we should treat them accordingly and play by the exact same rules. If we had done that from the outset, the war with them would have been over in a matter of days.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215767)

"Soooo, the attacks on the Pentagon and WTC were also legitimate targets? "

Yes. Fighting is fighting.

The way to register your objection to an enemy isn't to squall about morals. It is to kill him.

War is for deciding such questions, because force trumps everything else.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215597)

Germany initiated WWII because The Treaty of Versailles that ended WWI was a failure. Violence breeds violence. Wars lead to more wars. Every war leads eventually to another war, only peaceful change puts an end to conflict.

except of course Werner Von Braun (1)

decora (1710862) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215757)

and oh, i dont know, several thousand other high ranking nazis who got off scott free and had high positions in the post war society, because of the realpolitik of the cold war. but hey. whats a few thousand dead civvies, when the masters of the universe are deciding important questions of morality?

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215853)

No, the war was at an end. Europe was being overrune fast and Dresden wasn't a legitimate target because there was nothing worthwhile there in terms of factory or war effort. On top of that, the actual bombing run was to maximize suffering. Long burning phosphorous bombs making the entire town square into an oven.

Bomber Harris was a war criminal. Once you see the pile of bodies in photographs, read stories about them finding hundreds of bodies in single Luftschutz bunkers YEARS after the war ended multiple times (in the 1940s and early 50s), there is no denying it. Despite the suspiciously continually death count which reeks of political correctness of today's Germans (the original count was rougly 100-250k, now they explain it away down to 25k talking about Dresden's official population census and just ignore the flood of refugees from the east that were there at the time).

Acknowledging Dresden as an atrocity takes nothing away from German crimes like the Holocaust. Yet people like you treat it as such because to you history has to be a Comic book bad guy vs good guy lens.

Re:Not like the USA (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215925)

Here's your German lesson for the day:

Du bist so dumm wie ein polnisches Holzofenbrot!!

You are as dumb as a loaf of bread baked in a polish wood stove.

1. By your logic, Amerikan Moron, you are a legitimate target as well. I'm sure you support your country, Im sure you do something that can be construed as furthering the war effort.

2. The US is the initiator of aggression each and every time and devotes most of their national resources to war with other nations.

For that Dresden slur, I hope you survive a neutron bomb attack, I'd like to see you so far away from the the blast that you die a miserable death from it. The kind where you get to go on for two weeks until while your scorched skin around your pelvis rips apart as you hunker down to shit globs of decomposing intestines. DRECKSCHWEIN VERRECKE!!!

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215041)

Being transparent about one's past is certainly a good thing, but it's a pretty small consolation when atrocities keep going on.

The war in Iraq killed over a hundred thousand civilians - I have no doubt that in several decades, the USA will officially give REAL recognition to these victims (instead of blanket statements such as "we remember the victims of this war" which doesn't clearly spell out "CIVILIANS"). However, this won't make up for the fact that the war should have ended years earlier than it did (and in fact should have never been started).

I'd go as far as to say being transparent when you don't learn from your mistakes is pointless.

So sure, it's better than China. But not by much. The homeless man with two pennies is twice as rich as the one with only one penny - they still both have the same standards of living.

Re:Not like the USA (2, Insightful)

Dave Emami (237460) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215595)

The war in Iraq killed over a hundred thousand civilians - I have no doubt that in several decades, the USA will officially give REAL recognition to these victims (instead of blanket statements such as "we remember the victims of this war" which doesn't clearly spell out "CIVILIANS"). However, this won't make up for the fact that the war should have ended years earlier than it did (and in fact should have never been started).

Except that the vast majority of those civilians were killed by people who had lost their power trying to get it back. Blaming the US for that is equivalent to blaming Abraham Lincoln for the KKK -- after all, if the slaves had never been freed, there wouldn't have been any reason for the southern whites to put them back in their place by terrorizing and killing them, right? And in both cases, those who had been overthrown (the Baathists or the slave owners) would have been killing their former subjects to try to reassert the old order, whether the overthrow had been at the hands of the formerly-oppressed, or from an outside force -- in fact, the body count would probably have been much higher in the Iraq case, because there is no way any home-grown anti-Baathist force could have overthrown Saddam as quickly as the US-led coalition did. If (as you assert) the fact that those who were overthrown killed a lot of people trying to get back into power dictates that they never should have been overthrown in the first place, then by your reasoning it would have been immoral for anyone to overthrow him.

Now, you can assert that the US handled things badly afterward, and on many points I'll agree with you. You can say that the whole thing wasn't worth it to the US given the price paid -- that's more or less the paleoconservative position. But if you do something good (if you think overthrowing Saddam wasn't in and of itself good, I don't have the time of day for you), the only blood on your hands is from those killed while doing it, not the blood spilled by those trying to roll it back. And if you doubt that US forces went out of their way to spill as little blood as possible, compare 2003 Baghdad with 1995 Grozny.

(Note: not attempting to condemn the Russians by that last item. I don't know enough about the Chechen wars to comment on what level of force was justified. It just makes a good recent example for comparison).

Re:Not like the USA (2, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215873)

American interference in world affairs has -always- ended up bad for America and even worse for the rest of the world. Look at the Iran Iraq war where the US and UK allied themselves with Saddam's Iraq and supplied arms to them! The US (and other Western nations) prop up dictators and then later have to take them down in a perpetual war.

Re:Not like the USA (4, Insightful)

Gizzmonic (412910) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215935)

overthrowing Saddam wasn't in and of itself good

That's what, propaganda goal #3? #4? First it was 'training/harboring terrorists,' then 'weapons of mass destruction', then 'bringing democracy to the Middle East...' All nonsense used to justify an elective adventure that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and liquidated the educated class of an entire country.

Sure, getting rid of Hussein was a good thing, but guess what? In the real world, you can't eliminate Hussein in a vacuum. You have to consider the possibility that one tin-pot dictator is not worth razing a country, killing hundreds of thousands of innocents including nearly all of the educated class, plus thousands of your own soldiers, and spending billions of dollars that could have helped immensely with the current financial crisis.

'US forces went out of their way to spill as little blood as possible?' No, the Bush administration rashly created the situation that led to the deaths of the Iraqis (most Democrats spinelessly went along with it). The Bush administration was full of Polyannas who thought that Iraq would be like the liberation of Paris. Rumsfeld created his own intelligence department because he didn't like the facts, then smugly dismissed any criticism with statements like "You don't go to war with the army you want, you go with the army you have" which is extremely disingenuous considering the elective nature of the war.

The most powerful people in the country had no plans beyond "overthrow Saddam" and little or no conception of history or politics in Iraq. They seemed to have no idea at all that there would be a civil war, or any strategies on how to fight it. That's tragic negligence.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215081)

The difference is that the USA, and most of the Western world, now fully pays for China to remain the bunch of fascist bastards that they've been for decades.

If you pay for X, you are responsible for X.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215087)

The difference however, is that the USA reflects on its past in a much more transparent way than China does today.

Transparency must be why, after Vietnam, we stopped broadcasting live coverage of the war and made sure every embedded journalist turns in his/her footage to be edited for "homeland security" reasons prior to being sent in for publication.
Transparency is why we have our own Star Chamber now, where suspected terrorists are tried, convicted, and sentenced, in secret trials where they cannot see the evidence presented against them, nor offer testimony in their defense.
Transparency is why at the bottom of most google search results, is the phrase "In response to a complaint we received under the 'US Digital Millenium Copyright Act' we have removed n results."
And transparency is most certainly why the founder of Wikileaks found his assets frozen because of a request by Homeland Security to PayPal through extrajudicial means, and then we discovered a secret unit within Homeland Security who's sole purpose is to discredit citizens who express "politically undesireable" viewpoints.

We don't "reflect on our past" any more transparently than China does -- we just have a higher threshold before the government decides to assassinate someone they disagree with. A threshold, I might add, that's been on a downward trend for some time.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215227)

I'm not sure what percentage of people actually reflect on their past, and certainly it's not that prominent in the mainstream media. I think considerable amount of reflection does happen, though, and it isn't actively suppressed. There are a lot of critical books on the Reagan presidency that you can buy from Amazon or other major bookstores. There are books attacking the Vietnam War, the invasion of Grenada, the suppression of the Black Panthers, etc. You cannot buy similarly critical books in China, which seems like a key difference: it's not just that Chinese don't want to read books attacking the invasion of Tibet or the Tiananmen Square massacres, but that these books simply cannot be purchased in China even if you're one of the minority of people who does want to read about it.

In fact, not only are such critical books published in the United States, but I have taken taxpayer-funded university courses that assign them as required reading! Angela Davis is a tenured university professor at a state-run university. None of that kind of thing happens in China.

Re:Not like the USA (5, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215355)

Here's a dose of perspective:

"Fuck the US, and fuck the US government."

Hey look, not only am I still alive and unharmed, I still have all my rights!

Try that in China, and see what happens.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215453)

Here's a dose of perspective:

"Fuck the US, and fuck the US government."

Hey look, not only am I still alive and unharmed, I still have all my rights! ...so says "X0563511", "email not shown publicly", with a broken website.

Re:Not like the USA (4, Funny)

Capsaicin (412918) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215573)

...so says "X0563511", "email not shown publicly", with a broken website.

That's funny. The website was working fine before he made that post.

Re:Not like the USA (2)

turkeyfeathers (843622) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215535)

OK, I'm in China and I just said "Fuck the US, and fuck the US government"... and I'm still alive and unharmed. Maybe I should try saying it in Mandarin next time?

Re:Not like the USA (2)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215541)

You just hit the nail on the head.

The U.S. could do a lot better, most nations could, but trying to compare civil rights in the U.S. and China is just apples and oranges. (And I'm a Canadian socialist who thinks of America as a country of right-wingnut gun-toting redneck rebels.)

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Dr Max (1696200) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215735)

i tired it and i just got beat up by 5 red necks saying don't like it then GET OUT.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215809)

In China, it's more than just their necks that are red.

And it's more than just their necks that they beat you with.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215789)

Try that in China, and see what happens.

Okay, here goes:

"Fuck the US, and fuck the US government."

Hey, it looks like I'm fine!

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215949)

I dare you remove the quotation marks.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215427)

And yet you are able to make these complaints out in the open and not be arrested for it or lose your job over it or have your family lose their jobs or privileges.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215149)

It is true that the USA has committed atrocities. Kent State, Jim Crow killings

It should be noted that "Jim Crow killings" weren't official government policy, they were the result of individual actions.

Unlike the Kent State thing, which was "official policy" at least to the extent that the Guard was ordered there, armed.

Re:Not like the USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215153)

Come on China, it has been 23 years. Let's discuss this in an open way. You won't be able to hide it forever, especially because most Americans saw a lot of Tiananmen on TV.

The USA is barely ~400 years old. China is 4000 years old. Scale accordingly.

I think it is in the culture of China to move slowly and oppress/order citizens in a very hierarchical manner, because that's how large kingdoms survive for many centuries.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Dr Max (1696200) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215707)

Your government has a lot of control over the media (or the media owns the government) so you don't censor events as much as you flood opposition stories and cover-up the small details with courts and procedure. Occupy wall street was just as dramatic as Tiananmen square just instead of tanks they had police run around beating people up and pepper spraying them, and instead of disappearing protestors, they are locked up as criminals all under the watchful eyes of the news teams. Even now i know i hear 100 reasons why the protestors in America were evil and deserved everything they get, but the ones in china were heros. If i have the choice between censorship or lies and manipulation I’ll take censorship any day.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Velex (120469) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215797)

That's the beauty of it, good doctor. You can fight over censorship. You can't fight a mass of undereducated, brainwashed, misinformed, superstitious voters. After all, things must be the way they are because the public wants them that way. After all, it's what they voted for, and it's not like we haven't censored contrary opinions, so what you hear on the news must be genuinely fair and balanced.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215831)

The problem with "Occupy Wall-Street" was there is no ideological unity and some of the protesters simply were idiotic (same thing with the "Tea Party" movement, but at least that had ideological unity) you get some sane signs protesting the bailout and then you simply get some absolute moronic signs like the one saying "a job is a right". I'm sure the Tiananmen Square protesters were much the same way, but looking at it from a foreign perspective it is much easier to generalize.

Re:Not like the USA (1)

catmistake (814204) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215907)

Come on China, it has been 23 years

One wonders just how long these ridiculous fossils from the Revolution are going to live. As generations grow older and are replaced by younger generations, you'd think that tolerance would increase and these childish attempts to control an individual's thought would pass away along with the intolerant. When this finally does happen, when the Chinese citizens are finally as free as those in the Western world... we're really going to see something. Speaking as an ugly american, Chinese individuals that make it to the West are almost always tremendously impressive, cognitively.

Today? (4, Funny)

kwiqsilver (585008) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214949)

I thought today was June 4, 2012. If it's 1989 still, I should probably get out of this office and head to high school.

Re:Today? (1)

sarysa (1089739) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215073)

You do that. No one'll call the cops or anything, honest..

Is that the correct date format? (1)

line-bundle (235965) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214969)

Does China use the MM/DD/YY system? For some reason I thought this was exclusive to the US only.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (3, Insightful)

hcmtnbiker (925661) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214985)

China doesn't need to use it for it to be blocked by their filters, they would be designed to block foreign sites as well.

Simple answer (4, Funny)

arcite (661011) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214993)

The reverse engineers copied the errors. ;)

Re:Is that the correct date format? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215061)

China uses YY//MM/DD, and in Chinese they usually explicitly write the character for year, month, and day after each part respectively.

Something like 2012Y, 06M, 05D

Re:Is that the correct date format? (2)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215371)

the YY[YY]MMDD form is actually much more sensible. It numerically sorts in chronological order. MMDDYY[YY] is just dumb.

You know, kind of like how metric is superior to any other system.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215485)

Here we go: big endian vs. little endian :(

Re:Is that the correct date format? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215489)

MMDDYY[YY] is just dumb.

Today is June 4th, 2012.

June (06) 4th (04), 2012 (2012)

06/04/2012

How is that dumb?

Re:Is that the correct date format? (2, Informative)

Cederic (9623) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215593)

Because the 4th June 2012 is better expressed as 20120604.

Middle-endian date formats are fucking obtuse.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (1)

mirix (1649853) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215675)

Today is the fourth of June, 2012. (4th day of the 6th month of the 2012th year).

By your logic, quarter to twelve should be written 45:11.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (3, Insightful)

jrumney (197329) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215777)

45:11 would be just as logical as 11:45, it just seems strange because it is unfamiliar. A better approximation of the US date format applied to time would be to include the seconds as 45:00:11.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215917)

There's something to be said for both big-endian dates (YYYY-MM-DD) and little-endian dates (DD-MM-YYYY). Big-endian dates sort automatically into chronological order. Little-endian dates deliver the most pertinent information (least likely to be obvious from context) first, so you don't have to read the whole date if you already know the year. The same applies to big-endian times (HH:MM) and little-endian times (MM:HH).

Middle-endian dates like MM-DD-YYYY are still meritless and perverse, though.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (1)

king neckbeard (1801738) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215703)

Except the metric system has a decimal base, and all the disadvantages it entails (5 is pretty much a useless divisor). The consistency is quite advantageous, but there are much better bases, at least if you don't limit yourself to our particular numeral system.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215515)

China copies almost everything from the US. Their roads, etc. All based on US designs.

Re:Is that the correct date format? (1)

Dr Max (1696200) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215923)

You mean the slightly raised to the middle bitumen with white lines on it. but how did they fiqure out how the US did it to begin with?

Using US Date Order? (1)

Roger W Moore (538166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40214971)

Seems strange that they would block 64.89 instead of 46.89 or 89.64 - must be all that US software they are using...

Re:Using US Date Order? (3, Insightful)

Nidi62 (1525137) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215035)

They probably blocked all iterations of the date. I mean, it'd be rather pointless to block one way and not the other.

Re:Using US Date Order? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215049)

instead of 46.89 or 89.64

How do you know that those wouldn't have been blocked as well?

See, Algos are good for something (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40214989)

Come on. S and P 1337. We know you can do it.

no accident (5, Informative)

je ne sais quoi (987177) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215027)

It was no accident, the Shanghai index fell 64.89 points and people starting blogging that since 6/4/89 was the date of Tiananmen massacre, the stock index coincided with the date, which is a particularly infamous one. The censors then blocked those people for discussing the massacre, which is verboten. The NYT [nytimes.com] has a more in depth article. Now, the fact that the stock market fell by that exact amount by closing (see here [yahoo.com] ) might be an accident, but the censors were doing exactly their job, censoring people discussing the massacre. As the NYT points out, other stock markets have been hacked and this may have be the case here as well, or some other intentional act. The Chinese government is investigating and you may rest assured that we will likely never know what they find since that would draw attention to why they were investigating in the first place.

"You can guess what happened next" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215055)

People were suicided?

Love It!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215067)

You have to love the law of unintended consequences (Murphy Lives)!

Counterespionage (4, Funny)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215129)

Does 6489 this 6489 mean 6489 I have 6489 discovered 6489 a way to 6489 keep my 6489 industrial 6489 data 6489 from being 6489 stolen 6489 by Chinese 6489 spies?

Re:Counterespionage (3, Interesting)

VendettaMF (629699) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215249)

Speaking from China, unproxied, I think I can safely answer that with "Nope".

Re:Counterespionage (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215475)

Ditto. I don't think it's crazy that /. goes unblocked, but reddit isn't blocked. That's crazy to me.

Re:Counterespionage (1)

shentino (1139071) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215579)

If the espionage is state sponsored, whoever is doing the censorship (and is presumably exempt from it) is probably in league with them

"You can guess what happened next." (1)

CaptnCrud (938493) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215245)

Why did this make me think of the big lebowski: Sherry in 'Logjammin': [on video] You must be here to fix the cable. Maude Lebowski: Lord. You can imagine where it goes from here. The Dude: He fixes the cable? Maude Lebowski: Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey

Re:"You can guess what happened next." (1)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215379)

... are you insane? You should consider that a real possibility.

Announced cheap hockey jerseys it Will Sponsor Th (-1)

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It's 1989 today! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215349)

My god, I've gone back in time while I was sleeping!! There are so many things that I need to warn the world about: 9/11, George Bush Jr's presidency, the years of meddling in the Middle East, and, most importantly of all, I must kill George Lucas to prevent the prequels.

Wish me luck /. (even though you don't exist yet to read this message).

that seems a little harsh. (1)

decora (1710862) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215773)

its just a movie .. .right?

Dont care (-1, Troll)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215413)

"You can guess what happened next."

I really dont care

In unrelated news (1)

danbuter (2019760) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215585)

In unrelated news, Censor Wang Long Dong was executed this afternoon for crimes against the government.

Re:In unrelated news (1)

emt377 (610337) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215989)

He locked himself in a cell in a basement somewhere in Shanghai and accidentally beat himself to death with a baseball bat. Tragic, but shit happens...

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