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Aussie Government Brings Back Piracy Talks

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the flog-the-messenger dept.

Australia 114

joshgnosis writes "The Australian Attorney-General's department is set to hold a closed-door meeting with internet service providers, film lobby groups and consumer groups over proposals to reduce piracy on Thursday. The meetings were at a stalemate after sources said that neither the ISPs or the film groups could see eye to eye on the best proposal but the department confirmed that the meetings will go ahead and will this time include consumer advocate groups, who were previously excluded from the meetings."

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114 comments

Surprising (5, Funny)

multiben (1916126) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215883)

I didn't know Thursdays were particularly bad for piracy

Re:Surprising (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40215933)

That's how they start! Then they will want to talk about piracy on Sundays and Saturdays, which is my favorite! It will be chaos!

Re:Surprising (1)

six025 (714064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216501)

I didn't know Thursdays were particularly bad for piracy

Patch Thursday it notorious for piracy in these parts. ARRR!

Re:Surprising (3, Funny)

niftydude (1745144) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216627)

For some reason, many governments around the world have always had a specific and disproportionate dislike of the use of Piracy On Thursdays (or Pot).

Don't ask me why though.

Re:Surprising (3, Funny)

Centurix (249778) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216689)

I could never get the hang of them.

Re:Surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40219871)

I never could get the hang of Thursdays

What about the price of piracy enforcement (5, Insightful)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215901)

Calculate both the price of piracy enforcement and the price of piracy honestly, and see which costs more.

You don't even need to calculate the benefits of a society with free access to all the works of man, where poor people have just as much access to culture as wealthy individuals. For if you start calculating the benefits for a society to have free educational books, and as much culture as it wants, a more educated populace far outweighs a kings ransom. You start getting into the realm of,"While we'd need to rework compensation, we can't discount that a better educated populace would have the ability to create superior works."

So yeah, there's untold wealth to be gained for limited copyrights, but lets just focus on the cost of piracy vs cost of enforcing piracy. The cost of enforcing piracy according to PIPA and SOPA is freedom of speech. Wait, you're saying we'll give away everything that matters to us just so a couple people could hold onto an antiquated profit model of limited distribution channels? Well I guess it isn't really calculating societal costs at all, but just making sure the select few continue to be catered to.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (4, Informative)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215919)

What really needs to happen is we, as a society, need to realize that intellectual "property" is not property at all and we should stop treating it as such. IP and property have nothing in common.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216003)

Well, somebody made both of them.
Hey, I never said it was a strong argument.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (2, Informative)

bhlowe (1803290) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216117)

1. Monetary investment and man-hours go into making things--be they widgets, houses, software, photos, or movies.
2. Stealing physical property is "wrong" and usually "illegal".
3. Someone who invests in the creation of a product has some right to expect to be able to sell their works for a profit.
4. Massive downloading and viewing "pirated content" deprives the creators of some financial return.
5. This lost revenue could impact every aspect of the creative process--from salaries and jobs to taxes collected.
6. Governments, creators of content, and ultimately consumers have an interest in preventing mass piracy.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216237)

1. Monetary investment and man-hours go into making things--be they widgets, houses, software, photos, or movies.
2. Stealing physical property is "wrong" and usually "illegal".
3. Someone who invests in the creation of a product has some right to expect to be able to sell their works for a profit.
4. Massive downloading and viewing "pirated content" deprives the creators of some financial return.
5. This lost revenue could impact every aspect of the creative process--from salaries and jobs to taxes collected.
6. Governments, creators of content, and ultimately consumers have an interest in preventing mass piracy.

Non-sequitur in regards with the interest of consumers - the consumers interest is still "get me my consumption at the lowest price possible".

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

Necroman (61604) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216273)

Non-sequitur in regards with the interest of consumers - the consumers interest is still "get me my consumption at the lowest price possible".

For the individual consumer that actually pays for content, it is in their best interest to get other consumers to pay for content. The more people that pay, the more money that goes to the creators, so they can hit their break even point and then make a profit. If producers can guess they will have more people purchasing their product, the initial price may be lower.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

TFAFalcon (1839122) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217371)

Or higher. If they could completely prevent piracy, the prices would probably rise. After all, there would be no competition.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217723)

If producers can guess they will have more people purchasing their product, the initial price may be lower.

Nope, this assumes competition. Companies will always work to maximize profits, without competition the price factor will be determined at what point people will stop purchasing the product.
At this time the music industry is organized in an anti-competitive way. This means that the only price regulation that occurs is where customers decides that the risk of getting caught for piracy is less than the cost of the product. (Yes, the kind of music we are talking about here is a production rather than a work of art, at least that is how the music industry treats it.)
To resolve the situation it is not enough to combat piracy, it is also necessary to break up the cartel. It might even be necessary to split the larger companies in smaller parts to encourage competition.
Piracy is not going to go away until this happens. (Or the risk of getting caught and the punishment outweights the price for music but that is an undesireable outcome that wouldn't be tolerated on any other market.)

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 2 years ago | (#40220309)

The more people that pay, the more money that goes to the creators, so they can hit their break even point and then make a profit.

Yeah, piracy really hurt The Avengers, didn't it? Funny how they release it world-wide at the same time and break box office records, isn't it? The industry you work in suffers from extreme stupidity. Nobody that stupid deserves a damned dime.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216491)

Non-sequitur in regards with the interest of consumers - the consumers interest is still "get me my consumption at the lowest price possible".

Wrong! It's clearly not irrelevant to consumers, if people stop paying for content then people will stop investing in producing content. The consumer's (note the apostrophe) interest is best/most content at lowest price but clearly mass piracy would be unsustainable so it is ultimately in the interest of consumers to prevent such a thing.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217061)

if people stop paying for content then people will stop investing in producing content.

Hmm. Interesting. Care to enlighten us on what exactly you can find that is pointing to that assumption?

It's just out of curiosity of course, as this is only the tip of the iceberg. The real point is: can anyone prevent piracy without getting free speech out in the drain along with it. And the answer is, of course, no.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217757)

The answer is actually yes
And I'm guessing pretty soon piracy will be dead .... All you need is encryption chips on every motherboard that decrypt the content on the HDD/SSD ... So the only way to get content is buy it from an appstore that will encrypt it for use on your machine (the chip will only decrypt, so you need to have it encrypted... and of course you will not have the key to do that) ... Dell already ships computers with such chips ... for the time being they are off ... until they turn them on ... Free spech will still exist .. but it will be just that ... the ability to post stuff online ... as word on a forum/ or a pic of your cat ... post a program and it will be useless to everybody else (cause it's encrypted only for you machine)

Re:What about the survival of the fattest? (2)

Weatherlawyer (2596357) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216913)

> Non-sequitur with regard to the interest of consumers - the consumer's interest is still "get me my consumption at the lowest price possible".

After all if it works for major supermarkets.

Ah, wait...

But not for producers for supermarkets

Ah, wait...I see your point

Supermarkets sell plastic discs, that cost pennies to produce, for pounds. Whereas they pay farmers pennies for produce that is really useful.

This is far too difficult for me. What I need is a government committee to sort it all out.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (4, Insightful)

tbird81 (946205) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216849)

3. Someone who invests in the creation of a product has some right to expect to be able to sell their works for a profit.

Not true at all. (Well, what you've said is techinically true, they have a right to expect profit, not to make a profit.)

If I go around making balls of dust from the vacuum cleaner bag, I don't have some entitlement to make money from that. Even if I worked really hard to make them, and even if I hired staff to help me make them. It's something no-one wants and it's something people can make themselves, so I'm not going to make money.

If I paint my fence outside my house, I can't expect people to have to pay to view it. Even though mucheffort went into it.

In short, there's no inherent reason why anyone should be paid for writing a song. There's some rules that governments have made to get these guys money - but now they've forgotten that, and they expect to earn millions for doing nothing.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217671)

Here's another analogy.

The busker on the street corner has some right to be able to earn money for their busking.

See, the busker wants money.
People walking past may pay for his performance. Some will, some won't.
Those who don't are pirates. Or perhaps they didn't like it. Or liked it a bit, but not enough to pay for it. Or liked it a lot, but want to spend their money elsewhere?

So, should all these "pirates" be forced to pay - after all, they did hear the performance. Shouldn't the government get involved - the busker deserves to earn a living, but is being robbed by these pirates!

I can understand the argument that too much pirating will reduce profit for the vendors. But I don't think that the solution is "laws to stop piracy". It either won't work or the cost to society will be too high. I think the world needs to change.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (3, Interesting)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217255)

1. Normal people often do stuff for free and even pay for the privilege, be it sports, hiking, handicrafts, or making music or being in plays. Why should the community pay for some else's hobby?
2. Copying is not stealing it is copying. If you want no one to copy it 'shh' keep it a secret, we wont care.
3. No one is taking your work from you, you still have your copy and you can sell it.
4. We don't believe you about massive downloading, you always lie, always. You lie about the quality of your content. You lie about the value of your content. You pay off politicians to lie for you. You sell advertisements which most often are lies. You infected news which now sells lies as news. You are lying liars that always lie.
5. So what? Get a real productive job to subsidise your hobby just like everyone else. You lie about the taxes, yet another lie. Money not spent on your content will be spent elsewhere in the economy, often with far better social returns and, still generating taxes, liar.
6. Yet another lie. Consumers for a start would be far better off spending that money on better quality food for example rather than on dubious quality often anti-social content. Besides when do we have enough content, there is already more than any one person can consume in a life time. Why should an artificial creation of value continue when it supplies something we already have to an excess.
7. All your points are distorted PR=B$, lies for profit and greed. It is what you do. To further the 'USEFULL' arts and sciences, an 'ARTIFICIAL' opportunity to profit was created, when that work fails in that regard it is not entitled to that artificial monopoly, when that work is not 'TESTED' to ensure it meets that requirement it is not entitled to that artificial temporary monopoly.
8. You are your industry are not a benefit to the economy it is a parasite upon the economy, that can only be afforded when the economy produces as surplus. Right now global economies are tightening due to increasing population and depletion of resources, guess where that places you parasitical industry versus food, clothing, healthcare, transportation, education, energy production, potable water provision, heck you're even way below refuse disposal on the requirement scale.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

bhlowe (1803290) | more than 2 years ago | (#40220909)

1. Consumers want and expect excellent quality entertainment. Hobby level Tosh-0 content has some good stuff, but it isn't what most people want.
2. That is like a crook who steals and justifies it by the weak weak security system in place... So I guess you would be in favor of stronger anti-piracy technology added to digital media?
3. Anyone who doesn't pay for something because they can get it for free has stolen the creators ability to sell it. Yes, some people could never afford to buy a movie legitimately because they need to feed their family. But I'm guessing you're not arguing from Africa.
4. Bittorrent traffic is easily measurable, and it is on the scale of NetFlix, a legitimate company. The content of the bittorrent traffic is also measurable and I'm pretty sure most is not meant to be free content.
5. What productive job would you like programmers, movie makers, photographers, authors, artists, and musicians to do instead? Are you really suggesting that all of these people should "get another job" so that a few people like yourself can have their content for free until go out of business? As far as taxes go, local governments in, say Hollywood, care a great deal that taxes are collected from local studios and not collected by a widget vender in another state.
6. Ah, you like the command-driven economy, where the great tzar like yourself knows what is best for people to buy and for how much. And since the digital content isn't that good, so it is ok that we steal it so that we can spend more money on organic vegetables.
7. Yes, I think profits are good for the creators and investors. I don't know what you do for a living (if anything) but illegally taking a person's ability to make money is simply not cool, even when you use all caps on parts of your Marxist gobbledegook.
8. My industry? I'm a self-employed programmer. (What do you do for a living rtb?) I am not much affected by piracy.. But I have a great deal of respect for the people who create content and would like them to be able to do so and make a nice living...

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40218631)

>2. Stealing physical property is "wrong"

Because it deprives the rightful owner of their scarce resources. Making a copy does no such thing.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (2)

mcgrew (92797) | more than 2 years ago | (#40219597)

Someone who invests in the creation of a product has some right to expect to be able to sell their works for a profit.

Yeah? Tell that to someone with an underwater mortgage, or who bought faceBook stock.

Massive downloading and viewing "pirated content" deprives the creators of some financial return.

Fallacious. When Lou and Randy in Britain want to see the latest Big Bang Theory and they pirate it because its simply isn't available there, how are they costing the producers any money? If they download a movie thay think might suck that they would never have paid for, how are the studios losing money? Especially if they're happily surprised that it doesn't suck and they buy a copy?

When Joe McDonalds cook and Suzie college kid who can't afford to buy a movie downlod one, how is the studio losing money?

The truth is, Hollywood keeps making these claims of loss with no proof whatever of veracity, and studies all show they're wrong. But keep the lies going, fellow.

What's worse, I buy my movies at WalMart but lately I;ve been thinking of simply going to TPB. Why? Because the pirate version is superior to the paid version! When I buy a DVD, I have to sit through often unskippable trailors (yeah, I REALLY want to be forced to watch commercials in a product I already paid for, you're making me pay TWICE you damned thieves), wait for a lame animated menu to stop animating, and hit "play" again, and then am assaulted with three separate unskippable piracy warnings when I'm not pirating in the fisrt damned place! If I start pirating, I just hit "play" with the mouse and the movie starts.

Listen up, Hollywood, if you want to keep me as a customer, you're going to have to make the paid for version at least equal to the pirate version. When I put the DVD in, start the god damned movie NOW you stupid fuckweeds! You can have your menu when the movie's done, with trailors as an option, not forced.

Piracy is rampant because the entertainment industry is run by idiots.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216215)

I'll be the devil's advocate for the day. The devil really wanted to come but he's too busy at the moment. He has an important appointment on Thursday and needs to prepare a few suitcases of money.

You argue that intellectual property should not be treated as other types of property, but think about it for a moment. Say you have a spot of land. It's yours because you paid for it, right? If you spent money to develop an intellectual property it makes sense that the IP you paid for must be yours, too. In fact, if it weren't for that money the IP would not exist in the first place - while the "real" property, land in this case, would. So, let's look at the facts: allowing people the right to own intellectual property creates new intellectual properties, while allowing people to own "real" property not always does so. That means IP rights are even more important than other types of property rights.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

barv (1382797) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217461)

huh?? Anyhow, you don't own the land. Try not paying land taxes for a few years and the government will take it from you.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

Dan541 (1032000) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216635)

What really needs to happen is we, as a society, need to realize that intellectual "property" is not property at all and we should stop treating it as such. IP and property have nothing in common.

We don't recognise it as property, and the copyright industry acknowledges this. They argue that more than half of all Australians pirate content.

The copyright industry is the most powerful organisation on earth, they don't need to side with the majority.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

Hyperhaplo (575219) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216819)

You missed a really good opportunity for the 'common sense is not that common' application there.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40221675)

As someone who thoroughly disapproves of the criminalization of people who copy copyrighted works for personal use, but is also writing on a novel and very poor, I am getting more and more annoyed by this general "anti IP attitude." Making music and writing books are among the few remaining domains where you have free choice of working time and a remote chance of making some money on your own with creative work without basically becoming the slave of some asshole who studied economics. I think it's sad that so many people want to take this last enclave of freedom and creativity away in favor of the usual X works for Y model as if the latter was oh so great and flawless.

Copying should be allowed for private purposes in the same sense as having small amounts of drugs is not punished, but still commercial piracy should be prohibited. There should be reasonable compensation for individual artists and authors and it shouldn't be state-sponsored or gratitude-based, because both of this plain sucks, and for that reason some form of reasonable copyright law and enforcement is needed. Instead of trying to abolish copyright altogether, we should rather strife for more reasonable laws and go against MAFIA-like middlemen institutions who exploit artists and authors. We should not go against the people who write the novels or make the music by taking away the rights to their works entirely.

My 2 cents. Anonymous, because you get flamed for such comments on /.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (4, Informative)

CanEHdian (1098955) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216099)

Calculate both the price of piracy enforcement and the price of piracy honestly, and see which costs more.

But that's the whole dirty, nasty trick. It's totally irrelevant which costs more. The point is that the costs of piracy enforcement are assumed by the tax payer, not the beneficiaries. The call for an Intellectual Property tax is in part to offset these costs.

You don't even need to calculate the benefits of a society with free access to all the works of man, where poor people have just as much access to culture as wealthy individuals.

For sound recordings, the 'works of man' start to become interesting with the advent of the vinyl sound recording (and not many people appreciate mono recordings, stereo was introduced later). Can you guess how many vinyl LPs have passed into the public domain?

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216303)

Calculate both the price of piracy enforcement and the price of piracy honestly, and see which costs more.
The problem for Australia is the US always has some gun boat diplomacy hidden away.
If Hollywood goes back to the State department and reports that they tried in good faith to 'reason' with Australia...
Australia has its good named ruined up and down the US gov
No more cheap jets, cheating on crypto, weapons systems other 'export' allowed nations can only beg for, code to older systems Australia ends up on the 2nd or 3rd table with the loser nations...
Better to join the fun, re write some extradition laws and let the US sort out the bad Australians.
3 strikes and your on a jet.

Re:What about the price of piracy enforcement (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216989)

It is very difficult to quantify the effects of piracy. A download does not equate to lost sale, and even if it did the glazier's fallacy must be accounted for.

Good Point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40218133)

That is a very good point. What needs to happen is a university study needs to be done to analyze the Cost of Fighting Piracy -vs- the Cost of allowing piracy. If it can be shown to be more profitable to the industries and to the politicians to allow piracy, then we might see some reversal in these draconnian laws.

So let me guess... (5, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 2 years ago | (#40215909)

So let me guess, media companies are going to complain about all the "lost" revenue due to "piracy" and completely ignore the fact most of the highest grossing films have been in the internet age....

Re:So let me guess... (1)

hashish (62254) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216011)

That's because the population and ticket prices are larger. Monies made and tickets sold at box office has never been a good metric to measure a film.

Back on topic, I am not happy that my internet charges will go up to implement and police a system that will not fix the problem.

Re:So let me guess... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216187)

Don't forget that if you buy a DVD and then invite a friend over to watch it with you that constitutes an unpaid viewing the the movie industry's opinion since your friend didn't pay them anything to see it.

Re:So let me guess... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217485)

"That's because the population and ticket prices are larger. Monies made and tickets sold at box office has never been a good metric to measure a film."

Especially since Hollywood is VERY good at accounting.

Re:So let me guess... (1)

vanyel (28049) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216015)

Yes, they "lost revenue" when I bought legend of the seeker, sea patrol and a couple of other dvd sets after torrenting the series because it was the only way to get them (at the time) or just to see if they were any good... foot meet gun

Re:So let me guess... (1)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216137)

Don't you know? If you hadn't pirated those shows, you would have bought *two* DVD sets!
You clearly cheated the industry out of a few hundred bucks just from those examples.

Re:So let me guess... (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216429)

At least you had the option to buy... in the arse end of the world, (Australia according to most media types) I have had literally no choice but to Pirate some shows as they were unavailable by any other means. I literally went to 3 shop,s and tried online to buy the TV series Felicity before giving up and heading to The Pirate Bay, where I had all 4 series available within 3 days. This was a few years ago so the situation may have changed, but they did loose $100+ of sales that day.

BTW Legend of the Seeker was another series incredibly difficult to buy here for a long time.

Re:So let me guess... (4, Funny)

Lord_of_the_nerf (895604) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216021)

They could also bring in the struggling artists, technicians and producers that piracy really hurts like James Cameron, Joel Silver and Joel Silver's coke dealer?

Re:So let me guess... (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216163)

They will claim this is irrelevant, you see, because they _could_ have made more...

Re:So let me guess... (1)

Wowsers (1151731) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217071)

Things are SO bad in Hollywood, that all those big blockbuster films actually make a loss. All those "poor" multi-millionaire actors, directors, producers can't make any money?!? Hollywood Accounting [wikipedia.org] Why this outright fraud is allowed to continue is anyone's guess. Must have the politicians around the world in media companies back pockets.

Dear Australian Government, (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216025)

Please tell the content providers to stop attempting to control my life.

If there was a reasonably priced method of getting my movie, music and gaming fix online, but without any kind of DRM, I would happily use it.

Without the channel for getting these items legally at a reasonable price online, I am left only with stupidly over priced CD/DVD/BlueRay (why is a BR so much more expensive than a DVD when production cost is almost the same?), paying a pay tv provider to watch ads, or piracy.

Without the channel being free of DRM, I am left only with piracy. If I have some new or innovative way to watch or use my music and movies (they are mine, I bought them), then I have to break the law to do so.

For now, I wait for the movie on TV where I use a PVR with ad skipping to watch it. I only listen JJJ for my music (No ads!), or purchase from something like bandcamp. I only buy the humble bundles for games.

Content providers - you do not control me. You have lost. Wake up and change, or go bankrupt.

Re:Dear Australian Government, (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216167)

Oh they don't want to control your life - they just want to control your computer.

Re:Dear Australian Government, (4, Insightful)

balzi (244602) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216179)

"then I have to break the law to do so."

I don't pirate because the people who created media have expressed their wishes quite clearly;
If I value it, then I'll pay the price they ask.

However, suggesting that you are forced to break the law is absurd. There is no real threat to your well-being by having the latest music/TV/movies/software. Even if you argued that your quality of life would suffer without your favourite show or game (a BIG stretch), there's plenty of other crap to choose from.

Do I think the typical media owner is driving people away with DRM measures? Absolutely.
Do I think there's a happy medium where everyone could be happy? Yep.
Do I feel entitled to anything? No.

This argument gets very heated, and from my armchair it makes both sides look like spoiled brats! You can continue for my [free] entertainment as long as you like. :)

Matt out.

Re:Dear Australian Government, (4, Insightful)

xenobyte (446878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216953)

"then I have to break the law to do so."

I don't pirate because the people who created media have expressed their wishes quite clearly;
If I value it, then I'll pay the price they ask.

However, suggesting that you are forced to break the law is absurd. There is no real threat to your well-being by having the latest music/TV/movies/software. Even if you argued that your quality of life would suffer without your favourite show or game (a BIG stretch), there's plenty of other crap to choose from.

Excuse me, but... bullshit!

Why should I have to wait/live without while John Doe can get everything, just because he lives in a different place than me?

I have money in hand - I want to pay! But they don't want to sell.
I find it perfectly reasonable that if they refuse my money I'll just steal the stuff instead. After all, it's their choice that it is so.

Re:Dear Australian Government, (1)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217081)

I find it perfectly reasonable that if they refuse my money I'll just steal the stuff instead. After all, it's their choice that it is so.

Rest assured, you didn't steal anything, you didn't deprive anyone of anything. There was nothing you would have done to get it from them, so they cannot claim you deprived them of anything.

Wait...

Re:Dear Australian Government, (1)

Uberbah (647458) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217051)

it makes both sides look like spoiled brats!

Uh huh. But what's the functional difference between someone who downloads a product without paying for it and someone who respects copyright but would never pay for it?

Re:Dear Australian Government, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217613)

He means converting between formats, not "having the latest". But converting between formats isn't illegal, so his point is moot.

What about the other six days? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216037)

to reduce piracy on Thursday.

Meanwhile piracy will increase on the remaining six days of the week.

Re:What about the other six days? (1)

balzi (244602) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216111)

I think the First poster beat you to that joke.
It was the first thing I thought of aswell.

We are all cut from the same foolish cloth here on /.

Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216097)

The irony is that the "lost revenue" isn't lost to Australian artists as such. Aussies wouldn't be caught dead downloading an Australian movie. Unless we needed to get a new copy of Mad Max or Croc Dundee. By and large, Oz movies are pretty ordinary.

Re:Irony (1)

BluBrick (1924) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216431)

Oh, come on now - Razorback was alrig-



I'm sorry, I can't even keep a straight face while typing that!

Re:Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216555)

The irony is that the "lost revenue" isn't lost to Australian artists as such. Aussies wouldn't be caught dead downloading an Australian movie. Unless we needed to get a new copy of Mad Max or Croc Dundee. By and large, Oz movies are pretty ordinary.

Strongly disagree.

Re:Irony (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216879)

Oh, so you're the one pirating Aussie movies! Shame on you!

Country wide issue. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216107)

Australia tends to have a delayed market and higher prices which promote piracy significantly. I'm not sure if its the rating agency, government or the distributor that is causing it. If they got rid of that piracy wouldn't be that bad in Australia. Hopefully some salient individual would put that issue forward in the talks instead of just blaming the user.

For a start... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216113)

allow parallel importing - so I don't have to pay a MASSIVE $240 for a standard definition box of the original (now 30 year old) Star Wars trilogy - just so I can show my kids.

I can hear it now...
* WHAP * * WHAP * *WHAP *
- parallel importing leads to cheap chinese imports
- cheap chinese imports leads to FAKE cheap chinese imports

* WHAP * * WHAP * *WHAP *
parallel importing = piracy!!!
FILTHY PIRATES!!! ..and the content industry will offer to do precisely NOTHING in return for greater regulation

Re:For a start... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216143)

box SET even

Re:For a start... (1)

Yoda's Mum (608299) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216725)

Except for books, parallel importing is actually legal in Australia. Most retailers simply choose not to because it's also legal for distributors to refuse to sell to a retailer who parallel imports. For retailers it's often an all or nothing proposition.

Re:For a start... (1)

marka63 (1237718) | more than 2 years ago | (#40218527)

No. Commercial parallel importing of a feature film (over 20 minutes) is still illegal to Australia. Private importing of a feature film is not illegal.

Books not published in Australia within 30 days of being published anywhere else in the world can be commercially parallel imported. Private importing of a book is not illegal.

http://www.ag.gov.au/Copyright/Pages/Wheniscopyrightinfringed.aspx [ag.gov.au]

Re:For a start... (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217669)

So it's legal to press DVDs in Malaysia where you can manufacture them for .05 instead of .08 cents but it's illegal to buy them there?

Free trade only seems to apply where it benefits certain companies, as soon as the consumer would benefit from it it's very obviously a nono.

Pointless talk fest(thankfully) (4, Informative)

Eskarel (565631) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216121)

The Greens won't go along with anything they decide, the opposition will support anything the government tries to do when hell freezes over, and so no one has the numbers to do anything. Copyright issues barely even get a blip on the radar here so the government isn't going to expend a whole lot of energy on it. They'll talk about it, try to make the content people feel they care and then do nothing much at all.

Re:Pointless talk fest(thankfully) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216355)

No. Because the Australian government is the US governments bitch these days. If the US government want's us to get it we get it. This goes across the two major parties, the greens don't get a look in. If both the government and the opposition support it it's through.

Re:Pointless talk fest(thankfully) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40218265)

This is simply not true. Look at the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, Malaysia-Australia FTA for examples of copyright law expansion in Australia.

Stop Consuming (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216135)

Consume only those works for which you can pay the artist directly, and absolutely ignore everything else.

If everybody followed that rule for a year, we could be rid of this backroom deal piracy enforcement nonsense.

Re:Stop Consuming (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217667)

Then we obviously need more severe laws because it can only be because of copyright infringement that people don't buy, because as everyone knows you die if you don't get the latest rubbish from Hollywood.

Good Luck (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216145)

Come on people lets be serious, do you really think the Australian Gov. can actually do anything??! There is only one poly in the whole system who can organise a root in a brothel...

Re:Good Luck (2)

nedlohs (1335013) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217215)

And he claims it was an imposter looking just like him and using his phone.

HWGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216201)

Here We Go Again ... ab infinitum.

Seems to me these Aussie-types would [redacted] and get a grip on reality.

LoL

Piracy is mayhem at sea. (3, Informative)

ColonelZen (837294) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216211)

Can we *stop* calling unautorized use of information "piracy".

It rather by definition cedes criminal conduct when in many casesm however draconian laws are worded, proving criminality is way beyond plausible.

Most "piracy" is at a civil matter and usually of dubious merit, not murder, and theft on the high seas.

Call it what it usually is. Retrieving information without a license. Enjoying a film or song without having paid a corporation for the privilege.

-- TWZ

Re:Piracy is mayhem at sea. (2)

Mashiki (184564) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216865)

Arrrrr.

Just remember the jackholes are trying to make it criminal instead of civil in a lot of countries. Arrrrr...now where's me swag and parrot-cat.

This is why people pirate TV Shows (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216247)

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/television/mad-mens-most-shocking-twist-yet-spoiler-alert/story-e6frfmyi-1226384383310

We are bombarded with information from FB and News sites. Why should we be left behind the rest of the world. I read so many times about "what outlandish thing jermey clarkson has said now" weeks before we can watch it and see that the joke was actually funny

Re:This is why people pirate TV Shows (1)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217657)

Want to have it worse? Imagine you're from a country that isn't speaking English but is also a large enough market that they don't simply subtitle but actually dub shows. Then you know what pain really is about.

It is virtually impossible to get any original shows over here. Not 3 months after release. No even the year after release when we finally get to see the butchered (aka dubbed) show. Not even on DVD. Recently I went to Amazon to see what I could get in form of the shows I like to watch. Well, first of all, I cannot buy the season that is currently offered on DVD in the US. Why? Because it hasn't been shown on TV in my country yet. "Not available in your country" it would say. But I can of course buy the seasons before that. Dubbed. In German, Spanish, French, Italian and a few languages I don't speak, but (surprise, surprise) I can NOT get the original English version. WTF??? I'd have to buy it from Amazon.uk, pray that our customs don't go bonkers as they usually do (free trade within the EU? My ass...) and then I might watch it. Again, the season before the current one, because that one even Amazon.uk won't send to me.

Now it MIGHT make sense why people torrent shows a lot around this corner of the world?

Arr! Thar'll Be No More Talkin'! (1)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216325)

Just be handin' o'er tha booty, and ah'll be on me way!

Re:Arr! Thar'll Be No More Talkin'! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216671)

I'd watch a lot more of the parliament (parlez-ment?) channel, if they all talked like pirates...
Perhaps the Dutch could move forward with their little scheme to assimilate Australia, now.

Oh good. I can't wait go. (5, Insightful)

Sasayaki (1096761) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216343)

I'm an Australian author with two novels, seven short stories and a couple of other things under my belt (sequel's out, woot woot http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0080XLF2Q/ [amazon.com] ). As a natural born citizen and rights holder, I'm sure that the people at this conference would love to hear my voice as a representative of local grown IP, especially one distributed digitally and therefore quite prone to copyright infringement. I look forward to being able to give my piece -- that, in summary, the best way to combat copyright infringement is to:

- Produce a better product than pirated copies (so DRM/FBI warning/copyright warning free)
- Which is easy to obtain (Amazon's 1-click buy process)
- With sufficient safety nets (7 day no questions asked return policy)
- Cheaply (my novels are $5, shorts $0.99)
- In a timely fashion all over the world (Australians are used to waiting 3-6 months for TV shows they can bittorrent the day they're broadcasted in the US)
- And with sufficient protection for derivatives and fan-works (a Creative Commons, CC-BY-SA-NC licenced universe bible is due out as soon as I apply the last of the polish and hit submit).
- Without alienating people who do pirate it anyway (some people, even if it's cheap, readily available, DRM free, timely, safe and reasonably free-as-in-freedom, will not pay and attempting to coerce those people into being customers is not only pointless but detrimental since it makes you look like an arse and writers trade based on their reputation)

I eagerly await my invitation to this discussion which I'm confident will not be dominated by direct representatives of Hollywood insisting we DRM the universe and filter all aspects of the Internet, all in the name of protecting foreign interests to the detriment of domestically produced IP.

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216643)

You're my hero. seriously. You've posted a few times - and what you have always said makes complete sense. If most people were willing to offer what you're asking for - they'd have my business for sure.

To the lobbyists who say we're only thieves, if you TREAT me like a criminal and don't offer me a sensible product, then I may as well act like one. I'm condemned and have nothing to lose.

AC

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (1)

future assassin (639396) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216661)

I foresee a band of crazy warriors chasing you down the Australian road to keep you from making a statement. One suggestion don't break the deal...

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (1)

sapphire wyvern (1153271) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216749)

I mostly agree with you, but a seven-day-no-questions-asked returns policy for content which can be completely experienced in the space of less than three hours (e.g., most movies) is a bit over the top. I'm definitely in favour of more consumer rights but that policy is just asking for trouble. Would you expect to get a refund at a cinema just because you ask for one?

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (4, Interesting)

Sasayaki (1096761) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216889)

It's interesting, but that's what Amazon has. It actually really relies on what I wrote about purchasing being easy and cheap; to buy is easy, just a 1-click process, but to return you have to go to "My account" / "Manage my Kindle" / "Books" / Scroll down to the book in question / Click / Apply for refund / Enter refund reason / Click go.

For 99c, or $5, or whatever, it's just not worth it for some people. That said, there are a number of people on readers forums who boast that they've never paid for a book because they always just return it when they're done reading it, or return it then buy it again if they want to "keep" it for another 7 days.

I get probably 3-5 returns per 100 sales so I just don't really worry about them and I'm guessing Amazon isn't either, or they'd start tightening the return policy. The only main issue with a lot of returns is if you get a flood of returns all with the same reason ("copyright issues", "poor quality", "typos/editing issues", etc) you can get your book pulled for review.

Look at it this way. If you were at a cinema watching a movie and, at any point for 7 days after watching a film you could stand in line and fill in a short form to get an immediate refund... would you? And we're not talking about $13 or $14 here, it's $5. Or $0.99. Most people can't be bothered.

Some people will, some people will even if they make you fill in a mountain of paperwork, but they'd probably just pirate it anyway. I don't think the 7 day returns policy affects sales much and it's a definite selling point. "Try my book!" I say, "If you don't like it, 7 days, no questions asked return policy, even if you read the whole thing."

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217595)

Look at it this way. If you were at a cinema watching a movie and, at any point for 7 days after watching a film you could stand in line and fill in a short form to get an immediate refund... would you?

There's a floating scale:
- Hell no, it was the best movie since sliced bread
- Good movie and money well spent
- It wasn't memorable but worth the money
- I wouldn't have paid for it again, but okay
- Give me my money back
- Give me my money and my two hours back
- Give me my money and restitution for two hours of torture

I'd never go for the "Hell I loved the movie but if I can get my money back I will" though.

And we're not talking about $13 or $14 here, it's $5. Or $0.99. Most people can't be bothered.

Yeah, there's a few things though - then you can only sell things that sell for "can't be bothered" money, no more $60 games just $0.99 Angry Birds clones and such. And the market can easily be trashed by crap and ripoffs because people can't be arsed. I've paid for a few apps for my iPhone that were practically fraud, but for $0.99 yeah you're right I haven't bothered to get a refund. It's not exactly healthy for the market though.

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217137)

In Europe (or at least Sweden...), anything you buy on the net *must* give a 31 day no-questions-asked return policy. Must! its the law.

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (1)

hairyfish (1653411) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216761)

I am also an Australian, but I do not produce anything, I consume. And when I consume I do it the most efficient way possible regardless of local customs and traditions, and I agree with everything you wrote. How does one qualify as a "consumer group"? I am a consumer unit so all I need is some more consumer units and we can then form a group? Is that how it works?

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (1)

Sasayaki (1096761) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216897)

I'm guessing they mean the ACCC. Can't think of who else they might mean.

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216887)

This is why iTunes - contrary to what the RIAA believed - was and is successful. However by ratcheting up the prices, the record companies run the risk of driving people away from legit music. Again.

Re:Oh good. I can't wait go. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217293)

Holy crap. You have my name.
Looks like I'll have to pseudonym when I finally publish stuff.

September 19 already? (1)

BluBrick (1924) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216439)

N/T

Wrong premise (2)

heretic108 (454817) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216523)

Framing the discussion as "piracy reduction" is long obsolete. Might as well call it a "reduce gas diffusing in a vacuum" conference.
They need to restart with a premise of "finding ways for content creators to be rewarded for their works". Then we might start getting some workable and relevant ideas.

Do nothing (1)

countach (534280) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216667)

It seems to me the prudent thing for the government to do is to do nothing until some other country figures out a viable solution to the problem. I don't see why we in Australia should be the guinea pigs for the latest hair brain scheme proposed by the content owners. Let some other country find a solution that works for everyone, and we should wait on the sidelines until that happens.

Re:Do nothing (1)

Weatherlawyer (2596357) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216973)

> scheme proposed by the content owners

Is that a fact; do you mean pwn3r5?

After a century of owning the artists, the real pirates are now the good guys?

Re:Do nothing (1)

tbird81 (946205) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217429)

It seems to me the prudent thing for the government to do is to do nothing until some other country figures out a viable solution to the problem.

New Zealand is being used as a guinea pig in regards to Kim Dotcom. We've also rushed through a "three-strikes" Iaw under urgency during the Chch earthquake. Guess Aussie's going to be a guinea pig for some other idea.

Good! (0)

SvenLee (2624751) | more than 2 years ago | (#40216755)

Nice job!

/Frost pist (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40216999)

Was in the tea I mechanics. So I'm goals. It's when Posts. Due to the website. Mr. de My calling. Now I collect any spilled study. [rice.edu] Preferrably with an consider worthwhile Shouts To the DOG THAT IT IS. IT marketing surveys taken over by BSDI own lube, beverage, Preferrably with an Trying to dissect crisco or lube. which gathers These early is perhaps their parting to say there have Share. FreeBSD is fellow travellers? and has instead f0cking confirmed: obsessives and the With the number BSD's codebase is the worst off Any parting shot, chosen, whatever the fruitless Goal here? How can WAS AFTER A LONG reciprocating infinitesimally THAT THEY SIDELINE of all legitimate A dead man walking. of events today, a change to Be 'very poorly corporations Love of two is

It's almost VPN time, suggestions? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40217151)

As an Aussie, it's pretty obvious sooner or later they are going to crack down hard on us, the AU govt are absoloute teachers pets in regards to the US.
I need some secure VPN recommendations, I need 200gb per month allocation of data.
A country / provider which is unlikely to give me hassles

I'll be mostly browsing, some Korean GOMTV.NET traffic (SC2 matches)
Torrenting some movies and TV shows. (Yes, I'm a horrible person - but TV in Australia is a joke and I do my darndest to support good movies at independent quality theatres like The Astor!) see: http://www.astortheatre.net.au/calendar [astortheatre.net.au] / http://www.astortheatre.net.au/wp-content/uploads/AstorCalApr2012-3.pdf [astortheatre.net.au] amazing place.

I download a bit of porn, none of it contains animals or children! Primarily over http:/// [http] on sites like rapidshare surprisingly. I don't really play online games,I would like all my stuff to continue working, skype, shoutcast streaming etc.
So yes, I do some dodgy stuff and there's arguments for and against piracy. I certainly don't think I "deserve" to be allowed to download these things but it is most certainly more convienient than movie and TV delivery in this country. (Far more so than the US even, our streaming options are limited and awful)

Long story short, any thoughts on this or anyone else in other countries who've just taken the secure route and gone for 24/7 VPN?
Anonymous for obvious reasons.

ABOLISH COPYRIGHT (2)

barv (1382797) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217591)

Start out by halving the term of all existing & new copyright licences.

If, after a year that seems to be working, halve it again. Recursively.

Copyright is theft. And it is just not true that creative work would stop in the absence of copyright.

Motion picture companies make their money in theatres. DVDs etc are a trivial offshoot.
Musicians can make a living playing live. Recordings would be free or cost 99c from their website, (See Apple)
Artists could sell the original painting. Copies would be free advertising to make new works more valuable. Authors could make a living by publishing chapters on their website. Advertising would pay for their work. XKCD, Girl Genius, Questionable Content are proof that that is a workable model.

At the moment, the people who make the lion's share from copyright fees are the agents and distribution corporations. Not the artists.

There is a much better distribution model. Its called the internet. We must cut out the middle man.

That's the new kind of democracy (1, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#40217635)

You know, in the good ol' days, we used to have law propositions that were introduced and sponsored by some parties, and depending on whether it got a majority or not, it was brought into law, or it simply wasn't.

Not so today. Today, what will become law has been decided long ago. This will become law. If it gets shouted down (again), it will just resurface in a few months, waters will be tested and if it gets shot down again, we'll see it again. And again. And again. Until finally enough people got tired of fighting it and have more pressing problems (like, say, a law that's even a worse burden on liberties and democratic principles). And then it's in and we'll have to endure it because as usual the "law abiding citizen" will jump up as soon as you protest it and complain that it's the law and that you have to heed it.

This is how dictatorships have started in the past. Are we really doomed to repeat history eternally because the collective history memory is that of a goldfish?

Re:That's the new kind of democracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40218881)

Really, Closed door democracy. Shame. Legal Balance - I think not. Only France has said hang on here, is it right to make 99% of our population criminals overnight - or should this be a fine thing. Where is the cost/Benefit in all of this? Who bears the costs?

There is no best proposal, somebody wants to transfer sizable costs and other cost burdens on a carrier! - but too tight to pay for it. And strangely, the .gov does not want to pay for enforcement costs or pay for it either.

"But the studios seem to be unwilling to provide us with indemnities or pay us to enforce their rights,". Fine , no money, no honey.
Talks closed until someone agrees to pick up costs.

The talks should be abandoned - with a note to come revisit the situation when real folding money is put on the table, because the High court has ruled a carrier is a carrier, not and unpaid policeman, with a bunch of non-isp overheads not being paid for.

As for what they dream of, everyone will start running encrypted proxies, pushing up ISP costs, and the NZ case running now,
will probably raise some rules of evidence, that may result in huge compensation claims.

I don't care what they decide. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40218463)

I am going to pirate everything i can until they stop me.

The 'content creators' have been calling me a thief and pirate for 20 years. Even tho i was a paying customer.

SO i'm living upto my expectations. I'm a pirate. Gut these companies, burn their buildings to the ground! Take everything not nailed down! All your IP belongs to me!

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