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2013 H-1B Visa Supply Nearly Exhausted

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the better-luck-next-year dept.

Businesses 428

CowboyRobot writes with news on the FY2013 allocation of H-1B visas. From the article: "As of June 1, the government had issued 55,600 standard H-1B visas out of the annual allotment of 65,000, according to United States Immigration and Citizenship Services (USCIS). The feds also issued 18,700 H-1B visas reserved for graduates of advanced degree programs in the U.S., out of 20,000. " CowboyRobot continues, "Last year work visas did not run out until late November, but this year the pool of visas is almost entirely claimed and it's still only June. One interpretation of this is that the tech industry is hiring much more actively than it was a year ago. Some companies, such as Microsoft, have been lobbying to increase the number of available visas (currently limited to 65,000) while others argue that offering visas to foreign workers reduces job prospects for Americans." A bit more from the article: "Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless immigration rules are loosened."

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unsigned short (5, Funny)

nattt (568106) | more than 2 years ago | (#40293931)

Maybe the visa numbers are stored in an unsigned short and can't go above 65535 anyway....

Re:unsigned short (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40293951)

A few H1B workers would be quick to fix that for you

Re:unsigned short (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294187)

You assume government contractors are quick, efficient, and most importantly: competent.

Re:unsigned short (1)

kurt555gs (309278) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294247)

Where are mod points when I need them? This is funny.

Thank God. (5, Informative)

HunsV (2615715) | more than 2 years ago | (#40293955)

H-1B is a scam by which white collar companies (not blue collar, because they aren't cool enough) can fire American workers and then replace them with foreign workers who are so happy to get to the States that they will work for $10,000 less per year. (There are laws against this kind of wage fuckery. They work the same as speed laws in Saudi Arabia: No one cares to obey or enforce them. The "shortage" of workers is a lie manufactured by Oracle, Microsoft, etc. in order to cut costs. Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills, and the program I got into in college was so impacted that I had to go in on another major and switch after the fact. It's like that in lots of places. Fuck all this H-1B nonsense, and fuck all the liars and misinformed idiots who think we are just gagging for foreign labor. We aren't gagging for foreign labor. Larry Ellison and Bill Gates are gagging for foreign labor because they can be paid less.

Re:Thank God. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294043)

Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills

and guess what... 95% of you suck. "Comp sci classes I took" sounds like a real serious education.

I hire H-1Bs, I hire Americans. Whoever is best for the job.

Re:Thank God. (4, Insightful)

HunsV (2615715) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294153)

Your response contains a baseless personal attack because you know you're full of shit. If these H1B education visas are sending people to the same schools we go to, then what's the difference? Are 95% of these H1B candidates bad too? Do you think someone who got a degree in the Punjab got a better education, and if so, why do they need to come here for a degree, or to work? Just admit it. You hire whoever does a good enough job for the least amount of money. Can you at least be honest about this? It's generally how business works. I'm faced with the same equation. So is everyone. It's alright to just admit that without fabricating some nonsense about how we don't have enough talent.

Re:Thank God. (1)

supertall (1163993) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294243)

Awesome. I never have mod points when I really need them.

Re:Thank God. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294387)

"H1B education visas "

It is amazing, even when people have NO CLUE what they are talking about, they are so confidently sure of things.

It is also something more predominant among americans. Not a strand of doubt in anything one says.

Re:Thank God. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294179)

and guess what... 95% of you suck.

And guess what, you're too fucking cheap to pay for the top 5% so you cry about how you can't get any qualified workers.

Re:Thank God. (-1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294269)

And you're too much of a fucking coward so you have to post anonymously. Nicely done douche bad.

Re:Thank God. (-1, Troll)

Alien Being (18488) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294225)

Go to hell, you damned traitor.

Re:Thank God. (1)

Amiga Trombone (592952) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294267)

I hire H-1Bs, I hire Americans. Whoever is best for the job.

Yeah... I'll bet... [youtube.com]

Re:Thank God. (5, Insightful)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294385)

Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills

and guess what... 95% of you suck. "Comp sci classes I took" sounds like a real serious education.

I hire H-1Bs, I hire Americans. Whoever is best for the job.

And if 95% of the H1-Bs didn't suck, I wouldn't complain about the program. The stated case for H1-B is to allow highly skilled workers with skills not found in the US to enter and work here. The reality of the situation is that it's a program to drive down prices for tech workers by hiring mostly unskilled workers, all the while treating them as indentured servants.

Re:Thank God. (5, Interesting)

digitig (1056110) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294079)

I'm told (I'm not an expert, so I'm open to correction) that in Switzerland pretty much anybody can get a work permit provided they will be paid above the average rate for the job. That means that if there are skills that cannot be sourced locally then employers have no problems recruiting globally, but they can't use that as a way of bringing in cheap foreign workers. I hope that is true -- it seems like an intelligent system.

Re:Thank God. (3, Insightful)

zero0ne (1309517) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294115)

This right here would probably solve the issue in one iteration.

Of course it could also backfire and bring our wages down to the point where they still recruit H-1Bs

Re:Thank God. (3, Informative)

rastilin (752802) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294191)

I'm pretty sure that in America the H-1Bs have to be paid the same as a local, except that practically they are often underpaid and if they complain they are shipped out before the matter gets to court. There's no point in having laws if they're never enforced.

Re:Thank God. (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294279)

Not at all. They can't compete. A job description can be written in such a way so that the person hired would only be an H-1B visa. Not too mention since they are contract workers there are no benefits to pay.

Re:Thank God. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294389)

"there are no benefits to pay"...of the all the H1B using people I have known, none have been contract workers without benefits.

Re:Thank God. (3, Insightful)

Amiga Trombone (592952) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294287)

There are ways around that. Obviously, a Jr. DBA isn't gonna be paid as much as a Sr. DBA. But who's to know if the guy classified as a Jr. DBA is doing work usually done by a Sr. DBA?

Re:Thank God. (2)

kav2k (1545689) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294411)

As far as I understand it's still subject to quotas and at the very least the employer has the burden to prove they cannot find such an employee in 1) Switzerland, 2) EU/EFTA.

Quoting [swissinfo.ch] :

A third state national can take a job in Switzerland only if a person cannot be hired from within the Swiss labour market or an EU/Efta state. Employers must show that they made “intensive efforts” to find a Swiss, EU/Efta citizen or any foreign national already in Switzerland with a permit to work. Moreover, employers must show why those with priority who applied were not suitable for the job.

Fortunately, some professions, like researchers, are exempt from quotas.

For anyone wishing to dig into details, here's the corresponding legislation [admin.ch] (FR, DE or IT only)

Re:Thank God. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294113)

Probably not the first time I see ignorance awarded with mod points here. But H1B workers won't get a 10k/year job. You, as many others, are probably confusing H1B with the visa lottery program.

Re:Thank God. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294167)

He said 10k LESS [than the prevailing wage]. Not a job that paid only 10k/year.

There's a Few More Factors at Work (4, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294119)

Don't misinterpret this, I am against H-1B as well but you're missing two pieces of the puzzle that are, unfortunately, heartless as well. One is that when you remove a geek or nerd from their regular environment they often have nothing but their work and hobbies on the side. Make them a foreigner in America and some of them will practically live in their office cube instead of going home to stare blankly at foreign (to them) television. If you're lucky, they'll have a hard time making new friends and have less conflicts outside of work.

Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills, and the program I got into in college was so impacted that I had to go in on another major and switch after the fact.

Right but the top ten percent of your classes is still only ten percent of that. The companies that are arguing for more H-1B visas are licking their lips at countries that have a top ten percent they can still tap. The government likes it because it equates to a brain drain with the added benefit that the really smart ones actually get to stay. "The cream of the crop" doesn't just apply to American masses and I'm sure these H-1B employees help them toward their diversity and EEO goals.

The willingness to work for less is just icing on the cake. The reason Microsoft is railing for more H-1B visas is simple: they win as far as they can tell. What critics might be correct about though, is that this is being used to learn how Americans do business and then move these workers back to the foreign country and lobby for outsourcing after mimicking their American counterparts [wikipedia.org] . This is evident in stats like this:

In 2006, these [outsourcing] firms collectively were issued 19,512 of the 65,000 H-1B visas granted, with 4 outsourcing firms among the top 5 receivers of H-1B visas. These are Infosys, Satyam Computer Services, Tata Consultancy Services, and Wipro Technologies. Critics have argued that granting H-1B visas to these outsourcing firms is not the real intent of the H-1B Visa program.

So, even worse for American workers and unemployment is that it could eventually lead to even more off-shoring of work.

Re:There's a Few More Factors at Work (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294155)

Right but the top ten percent of your classes is still only ten percent of that. The companies that are arguing for more H-1B visas are licking their lips at countries that have a top ten percent they can still tap.

In other words, companies want top talent but they don't want to pay for it. Not surprising, really. Who can blame them? Why would they cut into profits when they don't have to?

Re:There's a Few More Factors at Work (4, Insightful)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294341)

But government doesn't have to sponsor that.

There is *no* reason that Government has to be cheerleader of multinational corporations. I know that most people almost take it as a given, silent assumption these days, but if a corporation is doing something bad for the country there is no need for government to encourage it, and that is what is happening with H1-Bs and our tax code right now. Hell.. if a corporation is doing something absolutely harmful, government can END that corporation. Most people seem to believe in the back of their minds that corporations are somehow an idea handed down by God... they're not. They don't exist without government of some sort.

Re:There's a Few More Factors at Work (1)

Alien Being (18488) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294299)

And in addition to all that, the H1B people's residence in the U.S. depends on their employers sponsorship. They are indentured and we are forced to play at that level. They are scabs.

Re:Thank God. (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294141)

H-1B is a scam by which white collar companies (not blue collar, because they aren't cool enough)

Jobs that can be outsourced(relatively successful in manufacturing[and if you choose the CNMI you can even use 'made in USA' stickers while paying at roughly Chinese rates!], rather a mixed record in white-collar tech) or done under-the-table with reasonable safety for the people who matter(Gosh, officer, I had no idea that my janitorial contractor's subcontracted cleaning crew might not be 100% on the up-and-up immigration wise... I figured that they were so cheap because they just had a good work ethic...) don't really need H-1Bs...

Re:Thank God. (1)

giostickninja (1141347) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294377)

Jobs that can be outsourced(relatively successful in manufacturing[and if you choose the CNMI you can even use 'made in USA' stickers while paying at roughly Chinese rates!], rather a mixed record in white-collar tech) or done under-the-table with reasonable safety for the people who matter(Gosh, officer, I had no idea that my janitorial contractor's subcontracted cleaning crew might not be 100% on the up-and-up immigration wise... I figured that they were so cheap because they just had a good work ethic...) don't really need H-1Bs...

Translates to:

Jobs that can be outsourced or done under-the-table with reasonable safety for the people who matter don't really need H-1Bs...

You might want to consider using less parenthetical statements---at least, assuming you want people to actually read and absorb your statements.

Re:Thank God. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294237)

The H-1B is for individuals at the top of their respective field, and it only accounts for 65,000 out of more than 6 million visas alloted per year. Say what you will about work visas in general, and granted the H-1B lasts longer than most other work visas, but H-1B visas are not where I would begin making cuts! They allow us to sap the smartest minds from other coutries, and use them for our own benefit, to benefit our own industries and own economy.

Re:Thank God. (3, Interesting)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294325)

That might be what H1B is supposed to be used for, but it is really used to get cheap IT folks. I have had to work with some of these folks and if they work for our customer who hired a contracting firm, they suck. The direct hire ones are fine, but all the ones coming from the usual suspect Indian staffing firms are terrible.

Re:Thank God. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294249)

H-1B is a scam by which white collar companies (not blue collar, because they aren't cool enough) can fire American workers and then replace them with foreign workers who are so happy to get to the States that they will work for $10,000 less per year. (There are laws against this kind of wage fuckery. They work the same as speed laws in Saudi Arabia: No one cares to obey or enforce them. The "shortage" of workers is a lie manufactured by Oracle, Microsoft, etc. in order to cut costs. Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills, and the program I got into in college was so impacted that I had to go in on another major and switch after the fact. It's like that in lots of places.

Fuck all this H-1B nonsense, and fuck all the liars and misinformed idiots who think we are just gagging for foreign labor.

We aren't gagging for foreign labor. Larry Ellison and Bill Gates are gagging for foreign labor because they can be paid less.

Right - it's the fault of all those brown people who dare to compete with your incompetent, lazy, fueled-by-an-overgrown-sense-of entitlement fat ass.

Re:Thank God. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294259)

I don't work in HR, but I work in a big tech firm, and my understanding from interviewing candidates is that our company would much rather hire US citizens (at least at the fresh-out-of-college-level). These positions have a fixed starting salary (depending on bachelors/masters/Phd), and sponsoring an employee for an HIB is expensive to the company. We really do have difficulty finding high quality college grads to fill our positions. By the time I see them, they've already made it past the phone-screen, and still a large number don't have the basic knowledge they should have learned in school.

don't have the basic knowledge as CS it not IT (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294307)

and you need to look at the way you do screening and look at people who did not go to college / went to a tech school as well.

"The goal is not to find a qualified american" (5, Interesting)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294329)

As it says "Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.

Here's a video of one of their conferences. It's pretty harsh.
How to put out fake ads, how to find ways to disqualify qualified americans.

Quote" The goal is not to find a qualified and interested worker"

http://youtu.be/TCbFEgFajGU [youtu.be]

Hire the unemployed (2, Insightful)

smooth wombat (796938) | more than 2 years ago | (#40293963)

I know this will sound crazy, and I'm just spitballing here, but bear with me.

There is a large group of people in this country trying to find jobs. Some have been out of work for months, if not years, while others are looking to move on with their career. Tech companies are complaining they can't find anyone which is why they have to go the H-1B visa route

Here comes the crazy part. Someone needs to figure out a way to get the people who are out of work in touch with these companies who are "desperate" to fill these open positions. It's a win-win situation. People who are out of work get to go back to work, and companies get to fill these open positions.

I'm not capable of figuring out how to do this so someone else will have to do the heavy lifting, but I assure you, if there is some way this can be done, they will be given laurels by the tech industry.

Re:Hire the unemployed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40293989)

Americans ask for more money than they are worth. Quoting another comment by me, to express my feelings

H1B's are living and working in the same environment as Americans.H1B's typically have lower educational opportunities than Americans(Americans have access to educational facilities worldwide, but its very difficult for a foreigner to get admission in an educational insitute in America(for someone from one of the countries from where people aspire to live in America)) Then, why cant Americans compete with H1B's?

Re:Hire the unemployed (5, Informative)

WillAdams (45638) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294013)

AC wrote:

>Americans ask for more money than they are worth.

No, Americans ask for more money than H1B visa holders are willing to work for. Wages as a share of the GDP peaked in 1972 in the U.S. yet profits over-all are still going up --- H1B visas are a tiny part of how corporations are able to get more work done for less money paid so as to maximize profit.

Re:Hire the unemployed (2)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294095)

>Americans ask for more money than they are worth.

No, Americans ask for more money than H1B visa holders are willing to work for.

Isn't this how a free market economy determines prices? The point at which supply and demand meet sets the price. It seems like people are complaining about the supply of labor being made available.

Nothing but market dynamics are forcing anyone to leave India, or China, or any of those places and come over here. It seems to me that if anything, the fact that there is an H1B system, and immigration system at all, is actually a barrier to trade which overvalues American talent versus equivalent talent from other places. Yes, people leave Mumbai or beijing because the conditions are awful, and they aren't here. But that is just part of what factors into that curve.

In the end, as we move to a more and more global economy, the relative value of a certain labor skill will equalize across the globe. The American manufacturing worker has already had to deal with this. I don't see why it won't work it's way up the economic ladder. Basically, it feels to me like the economic equivalent of the Universe's natural tendency to want to disipate any differential of anything.

(Part of this was cut-and paste from an earlier comment of mine, but I still feel this way...)

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294303)

But they are temporary contract workers! If they were asking for more Green Cards allowing these people to become citizens then you have a point. Otherwise, it is just low wage slave workers.

Re:Hire the unemployed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294327)

>> In the end, as we move to a more and more global economy...

Who said we are moving to a Global Economy? That's part of the problem. Ask Greece how it's working out for them.

Re:Hire the unemployed (2)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294395)

It's worked out great for Greece for years and years and years. They were able to live far above their means. The problem with Greece isn't the rest of the world, it's their attitudes. Read about their labor laws. Their retirement benefits. The way they utterly screwed up just about every aspect of hosting the Olympics. They have a societal set of expectations that don't match the reality of what they're capable/willing to produce. The fact is, that country is 2000 years past it's prime, and is going to stay that way until the population gets with the program.

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

HunsV (2615715) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294037)

If only the execs would just admit that they want to bring in foreign workers because they are cheaper, instead of lying about how there is such a "shortage."

Re:Hire the unemployed (3, Insightful)

troc (3606) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294255)

You know they could be bringing these people in because all the decent, diligent, intelligent and reliable local workers have jobs already and those without jobs are crap at what they do. Or am I mistaken and actually all Americans, even the thick and stupid ones, are better workers than highly-educated and motivated people from countries like India or from within the EU?

Just a thought.

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

mir (106753) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294149)

Also, Americans often have huge student loans to pay back. I don't know about Indians, who get the vast majority of H1-Bs, but at least Europeans often got free, or very cheap, education, so are able to work for less.

So to simplify things only slightly, H1-B is a scheme for US companies to siphon out foreign tax money. Nice!

Re:Hire the unemployed (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294211)

Americans are welcome to study in India at Indian rates. Note that the education system is crappy and has an acceptance ratio of less than 5%. (0.5-1% in the universities where american companies recruit from)You essentially study in 2 schools simultaneously for the last 2-3 years of your school life (9th-12th grade, or 11th - 12th grade)
Its relatively cheap, usually financed by parents with the expectation that you will finance your kids education and so on, hence loans are minimal at best
And, I doubt many Europeans want to come to the US anyways (as you mention, Indians get most H1B's)

Re:Hire the unemployed (0)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294323)

I see so for an American to get an a job in America they should go to India and attend an Indian University in order to come back to American and get a job in America. Been a douche bag long have we.....

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

zero0ne (1309517) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294171)

- Americans also have family to take care of (say the H-1B sends money back home... that money goes way further than it would for an American doing the same)
- Americans also have student loans, which is constantly rising due to the nature of how College tuition / loan stuff works

Re:Hire the unemployed (5, Informative)

dkf (304284) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294005)

Someone needs to figure out a way to get the people who are out of work in touch with these companies who are "desperate" to fill these open positions. It's a win-win situation.

Won't work. Many of those Americans aren't skilled in tech, and none of them are willing to be treated as slaves. That means that they'll have the temerity to demand proper training and pay! That would never do, as it might slightly cut into the fat bonuses given to part of the 1% lording it over the tech industry...

Re:Hire the unemployed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294015)

That's way too radical man! Way too radical.

But I'm with you! And I really wish the industry would allow folks who were programming in another language and on another system a break when they spend the bucks to go to school, learn something new and are willing to work at a lower pay.

I'm an older worker (47) and be more than happy to take what I can get. I'd be more than happy to learn a new language, platform, tools, etc .... I'm just a C,C++, Java, SQL guy on UNIX and Windows so my skills are out of date and no one uses those languages and platforms anymore. And I haven't been working for a few years in the industry - just developing software for my businesses that tanked in the economy.

OK, I'm a bad example. I'm unskilled and I guess I won't "fit in" or something.

But I like where you're going, dude!

Re:Hire the unemployed (4, Insightful)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294137)

I'm an older worker (47) and be more than happy to take what I can get. I'd be more than happy to learn a new language, platform, tools, etc .... I'm just a C,C++, Java, SQL guy on UNIX and Windows so my skills are out of date and no one uses those languages and platforms anymore. And I haven't been working for a few years in the industry - just developing software for my businesses that tanked in the economy.

I hear this sort of thing all the time when I'm intervewing candidates. People say to me, Yeah, I'd really like to learn [Java,C#,Ruby,SomeOtherLanguage]. Then I ask them what they think about [FreeDevelopmentEnvironmentForThatLanguage]. And they say "Oh, I haven't downloaded that yet." .

Next...

If you've been unemployed for months and have nothing to show for that time, you're probably not somebody I want to hire.

There you go! BINGO! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294245)

If you've been unemployed for months and have nothing to show for that time, you're probably not somebody I want to hire.

And everyone makes that assumption. There is this Lemming mentality that if others aren't hiring that guy then there's something wrong with him.

BTW, I have all of the Visual Studio Express versions - C#, C++, Web. NetBeans, eclipse, Qt Developer, and of course Emacs.

No one has even attempted to interview me to actually ask what I think about those environments. In other words I was never even given a chance to tell them about the things I was doing.

After a couple of years and a recriuter saying that was basically unemployable, I smelled the coffee and just gave up.

Have fun getting those H-1Bs and dealing with the tech worker "shortage" - you and people like you created it. Now live with it.

Re:There you go! BINGO! (3, Insightful)

localman57 (1340533) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294353)

You're screaming at the wrong guy, dude. We hire a ton of people who've been out of work. As I said, we bring them in for interviews. Even after we've seen their resume that says they've been out of work for months. You've apparently had two years off to pursue your dream programming assignment. I've been laid off; I know what it's like to have lots of free time and no disposable income. But that's the great thing about being a computer geek. You already have a computer, and many development environments are free. Hell, McDonalds will give you the electricity and wi-fi for the price of a cup of coffee. And you get the cup of coffee.

So, I'll pose the same question to you... In the last two years, what have you accomplished? What non-profit did you help with their IT needs? What open-source software did you contribute to? What project did you begin in the hopes that it will be the next big thing?

Your problem may be your attitude, not your skills.

Re:Hire the unemployed (5, Informative)

snobody (990539) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294147)

You mean, ways to find workers like Monster.com or Dice.com?

These companies aren't hiring anyone that they would have to train unless they're just looking for an H1B worker. I work for a large multinational company in the U.S. and I have seen the job postings they put out. They're so full of precise specifics that the worker absolutely must have that an American engineer won't be able to fit the bill. Then they hire the H1B from the overseas office that they had in mind in the first place (and who fit the onerous job requirements exactly, strangely enough) and pay him less. It's a scam. What we need is a nice, well-funded PAC for IT workers and engineers that can lean on the lawmakers and tell Oracle and Micro$oft to get bent. The only way to get the lawmakers to listen to us is to bribe them with campaign contributions. It sucks, but that's the system we have in this country.

Oh, and this Project for a New American Economy reminds me a lot of the Project for a New American Century, which brought us the Iraq war.

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

Amiga Trombone (592952) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294409)

They're so full of precise specifics that the worker absolutely must have that an American engineer won't be able to fit the bill. Then they hire the H1B from the overseas office that they had in mind in the first place (and who fit the onerous job requirements exactly, strangely enough) and pay him less.

Yep. That's exactly how it works. If you have any doubts about that, watch this. [youtube.com]

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

sociocapitalist (2471722) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294215)

IANAE but my understanding is that 'the market' works under the premise that supply will increase to the level required by demand, and prices will be set wherever the points meet.

If the situation is that there are people in the US who qualify for the jobs, then the industry must not be willing to pay enough to get these people to work.

If the situation is that there are not enough people in the US who qualify for the jobs, then we should see industry paying much more than would otherwise be expected to fill the jobs and we should see younger people flooding the training and education facilities relevant to the jobs in question in order to get paid this premium (at least until the premium comes down as supply goes up, assuming demand remains constant).

My belief is that the first situation applies and that there are Americans who can do the work, but who want / need to get paid more than industry wants to pay.

The alternative would imply that ignorance and laziness are rampant in the US to the point where honest companies just can't find good employees no matter how much they're willing to pay.

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294239)

This idea is based on the assumption that corporations want to find these people. That's not a good assumption.

Re:Hire the unemployed (1)

Alien Being (18488) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294373)

They're in touch. HR departments find excuses to skip over qualified American workers and sponsor as many H1Bs as they are allowed. I've seen it firsthand. Try to prove it, though. The game is rigged.

We need some big new powerful unions in this country.

Cant Americans compete? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40293979)

while others argue that offering visas to foreign workers reduces job prospects for Americans

H1B's are living and working in the same environment as Americans.H1B's typically have lower educational opportunities than Americans(Americans have access to educational facilities worldwide, but its very difficult for a foreigner to get admission in an educational insitute in America(for someone from one of the countries from where people aspire to live in America))
Then, why cant Americans compete with H1B's?

Re:Cant Americans compete? (2)

Chrisq (894406) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294025)

while others argue that offering visas to foreign workers reduces job prospects for Americans

H1B's are living and working in the same environment as Americans.H1B's typically have lower educational opportunities than Americans(Americans have access to educational facilities worldwide, but its very difficult for a foreigner to get admission in an educational insitute in America(for someone from one of the countries from where people aspire to live in America)) Then, why cant Americans compete with H1B's?

Because they expect to be paid more. You are not going to do a 12-hour a day IT job for the same money as a car salesman working 8 hours a day if you can get a job as a car salesman. On the other hand offer someone from a low-wage country 20k a year, give them a visa that won't let them change jobs and you're set up.

Re:Cant Americans compete? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294143)

Re: Then, why cant Americans compete with H1B's?
You don't need that many anymore. A good engineer from a top university who likes to code and is an all round nice person can make most things you like in China.
If not they have a security clearance and are mapping the globe or are passing on their skills to students around the world working out what they want to "do" in their 30's.
They nothing to fear, wealthy families, nice cars, the best Phd's money can buy and a charm that is unique to their inner cliques.
Their America is doing just fine. How is your Amercia going?

Duh! (4, Funny)

CajunArson (465943) | more than 2 years ago | (#40293981)

Just go to H1B v6 and you'll get a HUGE number of available slots.

Re:Duh! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294077)

So, cities growing vertically as well as horizontally should solve issues for the timebeing
Put in a couple of nuclear reactors for each mega city and energy issues are solved for a few decades as well

Shortage by 2018 (2)

pev (2186) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294019)

Er... Is it really that hard to train up some good people in six years? Surely the last remaining world super-power could manage that?

Re:Shortage by 2018 (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294087)

It is cheaper to get other countries to train people, then import them to work here.

Re:Shortage by 2018 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294107)

I'm sure China can manage. I'm just not sure that they will send these people to the U.S.

Re:Shortage by 2018 (1)

Krneki (1192201) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294111)

Why would you want to do that when you can get people already trained? The free market will resolve all human problems, nothing to see here, move along.

Re: free market will resolve all human problems (2)

beamin (23709) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294129)

Never mind the human wreckage along the way.

Re: free market will resolve all human problems (1)

Krneki (1192201) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294193)

Expendable commodity.

Re:Shortage by 2018 (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294219)

Your proposal sounds dangerously close to advocating that we spend our precious, precious, resources on developing the skills of workers rather than handing performance bonuses to management or dividends to investors. Go back to Cuba, Communist!

Sure, we could apply the radical theory that markets are reasonably good at balancing supply and demand, and tell the people whining to Congress that if their supply is too low, they just aren't paying enough, or doing enough to bolster supply(eg. by hiring candidates and training them, rather than sitting around and pouting because they can't find enough suckers who will pay for 100% of their own education and then accept wages that might let them finish paying down that debt in a couple of decades...)

Re:Shortage by 2018 (3, Insightful)

JasterBobaMereel (1102861) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294391)

..apparently the answer is Yes

The world last Superpower is only that based on it's military, which is based on manufacturing strength

The more that is outsourced and done elsewhere the less US corporations will have to deal with US workers ... you already have one of the largest differences in Pay between Management and Workers, weak or non-existent unions to protect workers rights..... I see a future when a few corporations will get very rich, and the US population will be out of work

 

Re:Shortage by 2018 (3, Informative)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294397)

Surely the last remaining world super-power could manage that?

Well yes, they probably could, but I fail to see what China has to do with any of this...

IT.slashdot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294023)

Curious why this is in it.slashdot, instead of science. STEM careers and jobs include chemistry,biology etc. But slashdot trolls are always thinking their only tech is IT support.

Re:IT.slashdot? (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294223)

What is the difference in this case?

HR is being manipulative. It doesn't matter if you are talking I.T., chem careers, engineering careers, or whatever. There are H1B people working in *journalism* for Christ's sake. This is our corporate overlords manipulating the numbers and the law, plain and simple.

Things aren't as they seem (5, Interesting)

laffer1 (701823) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294049)

When my former employer started hiring H1B, the government did a check of salaries compared to market values in the area. The other programmers had to get a raise. There are laws about salary, especially for the guy managing an H1B employee which turned out to be me. He also turned out to be one of the best programmers I've worked with.

I used to have strong feelings against the H1B program, but after seeing jobs unfilled at several employers now, sometimes it makes sense.

Re:Things aren't as they seem (0)

beamin (23709) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294151)

I guess that it matters whether you're interested in the well-being of society, or of a business.

I have a cunning plan (2)

gbjbaanb (229885) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294051)

"Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless more native workers are taken on and trained!

fixed that for them, I wonder if they appreciate my contribution on their behalf.

bullcrap (2)

java-lawson (851370) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294055)

This is a total scam. I'm all for people immigrating to the US and assimilating. But this worker program is a complete and total scam. Why don't we import lawyers by the tens of thousands and see how the politicians (most of whom were lawyers) react? We have plenty of US Citizens who are unemployed and are trainable in IT.

Re:bullcrap (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294253)

Thankfully, legal systems, codes of law, and bodies of case law vary nontrivially between jurisdictions, and we have, um, totally vital, regulations to the effect that you need to be certified state-by-state in order to legally practice. This protects vulnerable Americans from an influx of cheap foreign lawyers...

Re:bullcrap (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294423)

You can be sure that Lawyers will always be a protected class.

Obligatory Southpark meme (4, Funny)

Krneki (1192201) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294059)

Thyr T'rk 'r jewrg!

Yeah, we don't have unemployed people in USA (1)

Captain.Abrecan (1926372) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294067)

Yeah, because we don't have unemployed people or anything. Shit, just hire more people who have tech degrees in USA. They have to start somewhere in order to get work experience and transferable skills.

H-1bs Drive Out Skilled But Not Unskilled (5, Informative)

Baldrson (78598) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294071)

This should probably be its own /. story:

Study: When highly skilled immigrants move in, highly skilled natives move out [eurekalert.org]

In the first study to measure the temporary impact of highly skilled immigrants on native populations, University of Notre Dame Economist Abigail Wozniak and Fairfield University's Thomas J. Murray — a former Notre Dame graduate student — found that when highly skilled immigrants move to a city or town, the U.S. natives in that area who are also highly skilled tend to move away. However, the study found that the same immigrant group's presence decreases the chances that low-skilled natives would leave.

"High skill" refers to those having some post-secondary education or above, while "low skill" are those with a high school diploma or less education. "Natives" refer to U.S. citizens by birth.

According to the study, which will appear in the July issue of the Journal of Urban Economics, smaller and more geographically isolated cities show the biggest impacts. There was little difference in results between growing versus declining cities.

"We conclude that natives with less education take longer to adjust to the arrival of immigrants in their local labor market than do natives with more education," Wozniak says. "These effects are more pronounced in smaller, more isolated communities, from where it would be more difficult and expensive for less skilled natives to relocate."...

Good god! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294099)

That many people want to go to America? Why would they ever want to come here?!

Re:Good god! (1)

Dunbal (464142) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294357)

I agree. I recently visited the US (last month) for a friend's wedding. I was greeted in the hallway on the way to immigration by 3 large uniformed officials and one large and vicious looking black german sheperd, standing in the middle of the corridor so that everyone had to walk between them.

Now part of me understands the need to try to control drug smuggling, etc. However the image is unmistakable - "you are arriving in a police state, we have the power, we're not afraid to use it and we are arrogant enough to flaunt it in your face". This is not the US I grew up in in the 1970's.

Why 65000? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294103)

A limit of 65536 sounds more natural for me.

Re:Why 65000? (2)

CriminalNerd (882826) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294209)

It's the government overhead.

Law of Supply and Demand (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294105)

"Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless immigration rules are loosened."

When there's a growth in demand and a shortage of workers, simply raise salaries. The rise in wages will certainly attract more workers and immediately lead to an increase in high school graduates majoring in comp. sci. or engineering degrees. Then when that sector of the workforce grows to meet the demand, salaries can be relaxed again. That's exactly what happened back in the '90s and early 00's with the dot-com boom (before the bust), and it can happen again.

Except, as we all know, these lunatic capitalists don't want to raise salaries. They want to hire experts in the field at near-living-wage salaries to please shareholders and line the pockets of corporate managers with more money. And they'll lobby hard to keep it that way, because hiring lobbyists is a whole lot cheaper than paying American workers.

Re:Law of Supply and Demand (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294205)

Isn't there always a shortage of slave labor?

Yeah! (1)

bupton (1707066) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294135)

Great! H1B's have been artificially pushing down my paycheck for decades. Every time wages go up a little in tech corporations go the the government and cry for more visas. Then some we get the speeches about how kids aren't going into tech. Duh!

Just like American businesses (3, Insightful)

pkbarbiedoll (851110) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294159)

First they whine about having to pay too many taxes, and they complain about being oppressed by too many regulations. They want to pay no taxes and have next to no government interference in their profiteering.

They want to pay zero taxes, yet they want the government to give them a strong military, police and justice system so their profits and interests are adequately protected. They want to pay nothing to the IRS, yet want a well designed and functioning infrastructure in which to operate.

And now they want to create a false sense of emergency with regard to their work force, to hire complacent, affordable foreign workers via H1-B, rather than hire domestic workers some of whom may be unemployed by no fault of their own.

Why is it we continue bending over backwards for these unpatriotic "people" again?

HR bullshit (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294199)

So H.R. are either the laziest fuckers in the entire world or they are openly deceptive.

Please... this is why all those yelling about "job killing regulations" are full of it. Our multinationals don't follow rules they don't want to follow because government has become their lapdog.

I think this thing is a little backward. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294207)

Work visas should be given out on a company-by-company basis.
As in, each company has a max allotment for how many foreign workers they can employ.

Of course, you will need to flesh this out so that there aren't silly loopholes all over the place so companies could easily create shadow or child companies simply for the sake of employing more foreign workers.

The number should be based off of how big the company is. Basically a ratio of local workers to foreign. What the ratio is to be is entirely up to the government based on some basic analysis of a whole bunch of large, medium and small companies. (maybe even make different ratios for each company size-type)

Seems more doable than this mess and doesn't have some sort of arbitrary limit pulled out of thin air.
As long as the necessary time is taken to ensure loophole-free operation of it, it should be done.

Jobs for Americans? (3, Interesting)

mark_reh (2015546) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294213)

CEOs of tech companies don't want to pay taxes or decent wages and benefits and want a large pool of educated people to hire from. They have a two part strategy: (1) work deals to avoid paying taxes thus screwing Americans out of a decent education (California is a great example), and resulting in "not enough qualified applicants",which justifies (2) expanding the H1B visa program.

H1B visa workers are essentially slaves. They have to accept whatever pay and working conditions they are given because if they don't like either they have to go back where they came from. It's perfect for tech employers. The extra 65000 slaves per year coming into the US drives down the wages and benefits for American workers who have to compete against people coming from 3rd world hell-holes.

I used to be an engineer and worked for HP, TI, Motorola and a couple other companies. I've seen how the companies conspire to fix wages and benefits and I've seen and known several H1B slaves. I saw the writing on the wall several years ago and went back to school and became a dentist. Engineering is a dead end in the US. If you're in school for engineering now I'd start thinking about doing something else.

Surprised it has not run out yet. (3, Insightful)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294221)

A few years back, all the 65000 visas ran out in just a few hours. I am surprised visas were available till Nov last year and it still has not run out yet this year. I am sure there are multiple causes for it. One could be that the economy is not generating that many jobs. Another could be that the internet connections have improved to the point where it is possible to do the work in India.

Also many young Indians no longer want to work in USA. Almost all the popular entertainment is now available in USA unlike the situation some 10 years ago. All the TV channels of all the languages are available either via satellite or via internet streaming. Cricket clubs are popping up everywhere and cricket channels are available from UK and Australia too. Vegetarianism support has increased tremendously over the last decade. Technically the life of a fresh immigrant Indian is much easier now than it was when were coming in, the early 1990s. But the biggest problem is the domestic chores. In India labor is so cheap, these people usually employ a maid and possibly a cook. Back then when I was earning 200$ a month as a government scientist I was spending 10$ a month on a maid. (All seven days a week, scrub the cement floor with wet rags and disinfectant, do the dishes, do the laundry and clean the bathrooms). So they don't do any household chores and consider cleaning the bathroom beneath their dignity. So now USA has lost its luster for the younger generation of India.

It is a pity. They don't know what they are missing. They are highly misinformed about America. They think India is going to be the super power in 20 years. They have absolutely no idea of the depth of the strength of America and the time it would take to build a society like America. Of course it would take just a few decades to undo it. But to build it, it would take a few centuries. They don't know that.

It's not all black and white (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294233)

While I'm sure there are firms out there which use the H1B program as a scam to extract cheap labor, it's not the standard at reputable firms like Microsoft, Google and Amazon.

I personally worked at Microsoft for five years on the H1B and my starting salary right out of college was higher than any of my peers (American or non-American) at other companies. I also know a lot of other people who have worked for these companies and get paid over six figures barely a few years out of college. They are highly skilled - went to top colleges in India and followed it up at some of the best CS programs in the US (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT etc.), so they are not here for cheap labor. Also, there are very strict legal and paperwork requirements to get the H1B and can cost a company upwards of $30K from start to finish (if they hire a lawyer) so the program is out of reach for a lot of small shops.

Just wanted to put in another data point - the issue is not all black and white.

Re:It's not all black and white (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294265)

Worst troll ever.

There is no such thing as a reputable multinational any more. Especially not Microsoft of Amazon. I like Google, but they probably fall in the same boat now that "do no evil" is out the window.

NObama (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294277)

This is why everyone needs to vote Romney, he will keep the job stealing immigrants OUT.

Story is a proved lie. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40294349)

"A bit more from the article: "Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless immigration rules are loosened."

Many studies show this is a complete lie. At least two of these studies were previously covered here on slashdot. The fact is, study after study shows we have all the resources these companies need. Rather than hire expensive workers, they create qualifications which don't exist, to which no one can meet. They then claim no US citizens exist to take these jobs. They then lower their standards and hire forign workers for 1/4 - 1/2 of the US worker. This in turn has a chilling effect of salaries, which forces them downward.

Basically this is a massive lie and fraud which exists to line the executives's pocks with money which would otherwise go to hard working American's, how unlike the executives, more than likely would earn their salary.

The companies which are known to committed the most H1 fraud include IBM and Microsoft. In fact, Microsoft was caught red handed, with absolutely no reprecusions, firing massive amounts of US workers while at the same time filing for US worker shortages to hire H1s. To be clear, there is every indication this fraud goes to the highest level of government.

No bones about it, the executives who absolutely do not deserve their salaries absolutely hate the high salary you've worked hard to earn.

Sorry, but there isn't a shortage of tech workers in the US. At least not in most sectors. There may, however, be a shortage in a specific market. That's not the same thing as a US shortage. What the later tells you, these companies need to start relocation programs rather than H1 fraud.

H1B - not only for IT workers (3)

Why Login (923394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40294381)

Statistics show most of H1Bs are filed for IT jobs: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC [myvisajobs.com]

by large IT companies: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx [myvisajobs.com] Guess what? H1B is the only reasonable route for educated people to immigrate legally to US (aside from marriage and family ties, and lottery.) Due to annual cap, that is mostly taken by large IT companies, other folks are out of luck. I went to school for 10 years in US, got doctorate degree, and can't just open my own clinic and practice. I am not taking anybody else's job - I'll create jobs. But current immigration system does not allow that, unless you are rich right out of school and can invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business in order to get E2 visa. Even then, you cannot get residency and citizenship later, ever; only renew E2, if you are lucky. So, H1B is the only reasonable option: get hired, work for several years, and then get residency through permanent employment. However, most private clinics do not want to spend time and money to start H1B paperwork in April and wait until October for the worker to start working. Immigration system is ridiculous and that's why there are so many illegals. People just cannot get through the system even when they try to do it legally.

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