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How Satnav Maps Are Made

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the when-a-satellite-and-a-car-love-each-very-much dept.

Google 48

Barence writes "PC Pro has a feature revealing how the world's biggest satnav firms create their maps. Nokia's Navteq, for example, has a huge database of almost 24 million miles of road across the globe. For each mile of road there are multiple data points, and for each of those positions, more than 280 road attributes. The maps are generated from public data and driver feedback, not to mention its own fleet of cars with 360-degree cameras on the top. There's an IMU (inertial measurement unit) for monitoring the pitch of the road, and the very latest in 3D surface-scanning technology too. This light detection and ranging (LIDAR) detector captures 1.3 million three-dimensional data points every second, mapping the world around Navteq's field vehicles in true 3D. The feature also investigates whether commercial mapping firms will be replaced by open-source maps." That last line makes me think of the difference between conventionally published encyclopedias and Wikipedia; "replaced by" is an odd standard in a big marketplace of ideas.

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Future lawsuit. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40420447)

Eruption of sperm ... into the neighbor ... oops! Another child is born.

um... sure... (4, Insightful)

Tastecicles (1153671) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420461)

...let me just warm up my 360 degree camera and my LIDAR gear, like we all have one, and go take mapping data for my neighbourhood...

Re:um... sure... (2)

Exrio (2646817) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420591)

Well... Domestically available gear is going in that direction. Think four Kinects recording to a laptop with GPS. Unsuitable now, but it's going there.

Re:um... sure... (2)

TooMuchToDo (882796) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420649)

If quadrotors can do it with Kinects for indoor mapping, using Kinects with your car and a precision GPS/WAAS receiver are around the corner:

http://kinect.dashhacks.com/kinect-hacks/2011/04/14/autonomous-3d-indoor-quadrotor-exploration-localization-mapping [dashhacks.com]

Openstreetmap is going to need more storage capacity.

Re:um... sure... (4, Funny)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420715)

. LIDAR gear, like we all have one, and go take mapping data for my neighbourhood...

From Wikipedia,

LIDAR (Light Detection And Ranging, also LADAR) is an optical remote sensing technology that can measure the distance to, or other properties of a target by illuminating the target with light, often using pulses from a laser.

The next time you are driving, look at the car behind you in the rear view mirror. If a shark is driving the car, the chances are, that he has a LIDAR on the roof!

Re:um... sure... (1)

timeOday (582209) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420781)

...let me just warm up my 360 degree camera and my LIDAR gear, like we all have one, and go take mapping data for my neighbourhood...

Sure, that's where Apple and Google are investing most of their resources now. Why? Because the useful information has already been gathered, so now they're competing way past the point of diminishing returns to make flashy eye candy.

Making good open maps for the normal purpose of getting around doesn't require any more sophisticated equipment than a GPS receiver.

Re:um... sure... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421463)

Making good open maps for the normal purpose of getting around doesn't require any more sophisticated equipment than a GPS receiver.

Except if you want to avoid routing someone under a low overpass they can't clear. GPSs in trucks are a bit more complex than you are considering.

Re:um... sure... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40424355)

Making good open maps for the normal purpose of getting around doesn't require any more sophisticated equipment than a GPS receiver.

Except if you want to avoid routing someone under a low overpass they can't clear. GPSs in trucks are a bit more complex than you are considering.

Already solved. You store the height of overpasses, the weight limit on bridges - and so on - in the map itself. You tell your gps unit that "this truck is 2.5m tall and weighs 6 tons with todays cargo" And then the unit routes around low passes and weak bridges.

Re:um... sure... (4, Insightful)

milkmage (795746) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421639)

GPS is fine for the mundane point A to point B navigation, but if you're exploring (road trip) - gas stations and places to eat and sleep are handy.. GPS alone is no good for that - you have to have POIs

streetview and flyover are useful if you want to get an idea of what's around. once in a while I'll get a restaurant recommendation from someone and if I'm not sure if I've been there (I don't remember names of places very well) I'll drive down the street courtesy of google.

the monocle feature in the yelp app uses POIs - useful if you're in a city you don't know. I was coming up from the underground in DC and was supposed to meet someone.. I had no idea what direction to walk... yelp told me which way to go. (easier than getting directions since I didn't need to enter an address and GPS w/o POIs makes the address useless anyway)

we had a gathering in a huge park last week.. the people not familiar with the city used google earth to find the meadow where we were supposed to meet. kind of hard to find a big open space 300 yards away when you're surrounded by trees. (park here, go 300 yards south) some people have a really hard time navigating with maps. aerial photos are easier to relate too.

Re:um... sure... (1)

westyvw (653833) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421603)

Interesting. Crowd vs Commercial mapping.
The difference is the commercial vendor is trying to get multiple data inputs (LIDAR and 360) to quickly gather enough information that one process or person can make maps.
With neighborhood mapping, you can get multiple inputs, from interested parties with a single map input, and over a longer time.

In my day (5, Interesting)

silas_moeckel (234313) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420475)

Way back I worked at a DOT they were buying the sat maps from the Russians very good positional accuracy but no data to go with them. We would take the census maps that are useless for positions but have all the road names house numbers etc. The feds had sat maps as well but refused to sell them of give them to the states. We also merged it with data from a fleet of vans primarily with a gps and camera's (going to laser disk no less). A whole crew of people would spend all day matching things by hand and merging the data.

Re:In my day (1)

tomhath (637240) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420817)

I worked in a place where they did measuring and positioning based on satellite imagery. The sign on the door to their room said "Mensuration", which caused a lot of double takes and giggling.

Re:In my day (2)

OzPeter (195038) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421325)

Way back I worked at a DOT they were buying the sat maps from the Russians very good positional accuracy but no data to go with them.

I worked in Russia in the early 90's (before satnav existed) and was amused by stories I heard about Russian road atlases. The main one was that while all the towns were represented along with the roads that connected them, that the maps were laid out such that the towns weren't where the maps actually indicated. So you could navigate from town to town, but not be sure where you actually were.
 
And of the town I was working in (Magnitogorsk, in Siberia) the best maps I saw of the place were US military maps.

Er... no. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40420483)

"...mapping the world around Navteq's field vehicles in true 3D. "

If it's only around the vehicle it's not 'true' 3D.

Re:Er... no. (2)

clickclickdrone (964164) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420667)

>If it's only around the vehicle it's not 'true' 3D.
I think they mean 3D as in the car can go up a hill and the change in altitude is also recorded.

Inaccuracies (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40420497)

Given how crap all satnav maps are for my area, I figured it followed a process similar to this one. [youtube.com]

What about updating old roads that get changed (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420557)

What about updating old roads that get changed?

also when they build that new part of I-355 it took for ever to show up on the on line maps and even a radio station made fun of it.

Re:What about updating old roads that get changed (1)

timeOday (582209) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420811)

I agree, this should happen pretty much in real-time now. If 1% of cars were constantly reporting their location, it would be plenty for real-time mapping of traffic flow (much less updating where roads are) in urban areas.

What about telling the government were I am? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421277)

Except for the privacy issue.

Re:What about telling the government were I am? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421357)

No need for private cars to do this. Police cars, ambulances and fire brigade cars are perfect for this - they may even already be recording the information needed.

Re:What about telling the government were I am? (1)

dwillden (521345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421571)

What privacy issues? Waze collects this data from every user, but they have no system for tracking individual users, the data is anonymous and usually has a bout a two minute delay before being reflected in the navigation system. And what identifying data do they have? an email address and location info. Google Latitude does a better job of sharing my exact location (because I have intentionally allowed it to) with my friends and family than Waze does.

Yawn... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421397)

Read the article doofus. If you can't be bothered to read the article then I can't be bothered to copy and paste out of it for you.

Re:What about updating old roads that get changed (3, Interesting)

dwillden (521345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421541)

Bingo, And that is why I'd like everybody to give Waze [waze.com] a serious try. Similar to OSM it's maps are editable. It requires an active data connection on your device to work fully and properly. As your driving it's continually reporting your location and speed data to their system. This allows it to dynamically route around traffic issues. This used to be the biggest selling point, but it's no longer that unique of a feature. What is unique is that every user is allowed to log into the map and make fixes.

How significant is this? Six months ago I discovered Waze, at the time I was using a TomTom device and was frustrated that finally two years after opening a major new commuter route had finally made it onto the TomTom maps. But another route that cut more time off my commute had just opened and I knew Tomtom wouldn't have it for years to come. When I fired up Waze, less than two months after the second commuter route had opened, it was already in their maps. The second benefit was I'd reported other errors via the TomTom reporting system without ever seeing the fixes getting made. I was able to go into the Maps in Waze and my fixes went active within a couple weeks.

Since then I've spent quite a bit of time cleaning up the roads in my area. I've mapped in a major road re-design and another new commuter route before they were open to traffic. I turned both on a couple weeks before the roads actually opened and both were live on the system the day each road opened. Contrast that to the first road and TomTom taking nearly two years to add it to their maps.

And best of all, Waze is free, those TomTom updates were $12 every quarter, for very slow updates. Waze is as accurate as the users in the area make it, it has helped me avoid several traffic jams and it's free! (as in beer). You don't have to edit or any thing, you just need an iOS or Android device (there are versions that will work on Winmobile, symbian and Blackberry devices but they are not updating those client apps at this time), with an active data connection and you are on your way.

Re:What about updating old roads that get changed (1)

AmberBlackCat (829689) | more than 2 years ago | (#40425887)

I like the concept, but I don't understand why they're maintaining a separate database instead of just using OpenStreetMap data. It seems a bit redundant. Also, it seems to me like they got their data from OpenStreetMap anyway (or at least got it from the same source). Because there are errors that were on the OpenStreetMap, which I fixed, yet they are still present on the Waze map. The exact same mistakes. Why fork the project?

Re:What about updating old roads that get changed (2)

dwillden (521345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40426103)

The errors came from the same original source data not from OSM. Waze intends and does monetize their maps, and if they just used OSM maps they couldn't do so. Similarities in the maps is due to the original public resource base data, not between the two products.

The Waze maps were never forked from OSM, Waze started in Israel and had no basemap, it was created entirely by users, and in country after country this has occurred, people find out about the app and start driving with it running, this quickly creates a rough base map in major population areas on main routes. For additional roads Waze goes to the original government created map sources to create a basemap for countries it intends to support. This is where the similarities come in.

Brazil just barely went through this with their basemap going live on Waze this last weekend.

But back to your original closing question, they didn't fork it, and they chose to not utilize OSM because they can't, at least not an make money how they are doing so. If they used the OSM maps their map data would have to be similarly free.

But companies want to keep their edge (2)

stevey (64018) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420601)

It wasn't so long that tom-tom were criticizing openstreetmap [slashdot.org] , and trying to pretend their data was better than crowd-sourced data.

Re:But companies want to keep their edge (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422489)

I think this is the important point OP was making in that last paragraph.

We may see crowdsourced maps replacing commercial services, or we may see a gamut of various services. The real question is whether the commercial services can changes their business models rapidly enough to keep up.

Navteq? Really? (5, Informative)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420641)

They have the WORST maps available. Most of it is wrong, very low detail in any town that is smaller than 300,000 people. And they charge anal rape prices for their map updates.

I had one of the first in car nav systems, the Clarion Auto PC and the navteq maps were borderline worthless. the maps were missing most roads, no data about most one way streets, etc..

In fact 10 years later in 2009 I had the unfortunate experience of using Navteq data in a Jeep Grand Cherokee Nav system and once again crap maps, and it even had roads in locations that have not existed for decades, so their data set is still out of whack so bad it's not funny.

No thanks. I avoid all products that say "Navteq map database" on them.

Garmin uses Navteq but then uses teleatlas to correct the mess that is Navteq. Their maps are a hybrid of 4 different map database sources ran through their servers to correct them. So far I have had OK luck with Garmin's source database. I stopped using Megallan as they switched to the Navteq low quality database.

Want good maps in your GPS? teleatlas as the data source.

Re:Navteq? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40420733)

Absolutely agree. Teleatlas has the best maps I've seen so far, even for remote places that you wouldn't expect to be in the "99% of all roads" and that aren't in the data sets of their competitors.

Re:Navteq? Really? (1)

MrLogic17 (233498) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421061)

Mod parrent to +Infinity. Navteq is by far the worst GPS/mapping database out there. Even the half-hearted, "croud-sourced" Waze is better.

I frequently use my iPhone's mapping system when I'm in my van with the Navteq system. It's not just the road mistakes & outdated info, it's also the interface. I recently tried to get directions to my town's YMCA. After 10 minutes, the best match I could find was one over 1,000 miles away. 3 seconds with Siri and I had directions.

I am completly convinced that the deveopers of Navteq systems don't actually use it themselves. It's that bad.
 

Re:Navteq? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421591)

I have a Grand Cherokee 2012 and the integrated Gps is Garmin/Navteq based. No problem so far...

Re:Navteq? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421817)

Maybe for America - In the UK the best is Ordiance Survey (Perhaps the AtoZ maps are better for a given City). followed by Navteq then Teleatlas.

Don't blame Navteq (3, Interesting)

batistuta (1794636) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421907)

Natvteq has actually very good maps, particularly in Europe. The reason why your map looks bad is most likely due to your particular gear vendor. Garmin, Becker, Blaupunkt, Falk, etc. they buy maps from Navteq or Teleatlas, and they compile it for whatever their main goal and budget. In order to reduce the map size and save money, they compress the data using a battery of techniques. One common technique is decimation, where they simply remove geometry points to save space, leaving mostly the ones that represent intersections and a few in the middle. POI suffer as well.

So please don't be too fast in blaming a map vendor, where the fault is almost certainly from your navigation system vendor.

Re:Don't blame Navteq (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40427581)

I live in Europe.
Navteq has a website to report errors on the map (i.e. it's the source, not Garmin or any other vendor).

Even though I reported like a dozen of times that one main streets of my city was reversed, two years later it was still not corrected.
Recently I noticed that one and only one of the street segments was officially reversed in the map, despite I stated specifically that the entire street was reversed (and nearby streets affected too).

Meanwhile in OSM that street was correctly edited (by me) since day zero. I tell you, Navteq is shit.

Re:Don't blame Navteq (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40429003)

I use directly two Nokia devices for navication. A Nokia 500 car navigation system and now more Lumia 800.

Navteq has worst maps in Finland, Sweden and Germany where I have been using it a lot.

Missing bridges, rivers and even lakes. Some paths are marked as roads while in reality you wouldn't even walk there. Too many roads are missing in reality or have demolished in reality.

And when it comes to cities, yes, you can find your place at very big cities in main streets and roads, but try to do so at better accuracy level, like where are metro stations, bus stations, where is tunnels and what are ferry locations...

Navteq gets 5-7 from 10 but when compared to others, they are better.

Re:Navteq? Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40425279)

I have a GPS unit in my 2006 Jeep that uses Navteq DVD's. I have been getting the new ones as they are released roughly once/year. And yet 3 years after reporting a major error at an intersection nearby, it still is not fixed. In the map mode it shows correctly, but when it switches to the simplified intersection mode, it shows an intersection that in no way resembles reality, and directs me to make a 45-degree turn which would send me across the oncoming lane and into the ditch.

Google has real crowdsourcing too (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40420713)

The article implies that the only ability to modify the data on Google Maps is using the Report a Problem link, but many countries in the world, including the US and Canada, allow everything to be edited directly by anyone using Map Maker [google.com] . Edits are reviewed by both a team of over 500 trusted users worldwide and by Google employees. As trust is built up by making good edits and reviewing the edits of others, more things can be changed without requiring approvals. It's like an MMORPG for map geeks, except that it produces actual useful results in the real world. More info in the Getting Started Guide [google.com] .

//disclaimer I am one of the trusted reviewers, but am not employed by Google.

Re:Google has real crowdsourcing too (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421341)

OpenstreetMap is an all round better deal for people to get involved with. The map data is licensed Creative Commons and isn't owned by any single person, government, or corporation. We sure don't want mapping data locked up for 70+ years, now do we?

Re:Google has real crowdsourcing too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422279)

When you navigate using Google Navigate, you actually sends GPS data back to Google. Map data will be updated with temporary roadways around major construction sites if enough cars makes the same detour. The system is self-learning.

When I drive to my dad's house, all GPS systems will point toward the wrong corner of his lawn. But Google noticed that I always end my navigation at the same spot, the driveway, so it moved the destination point there. With enough repetition it will correct itself.

Re:Google has real crowdsourcing too (1)

ibennetch (521581) | more than 2 years ago | (#40563921)

In concept you're right, but trying to get those changes approved is a joke. I've tried to get my parent's farming lane removed (2 miles, dirt, signed as private at both ends). The first response back was that they've verified that it's actually a road and wouldn't fix it, so I reported it again. It took longer than it should have (over a year, I believe)...the whole while routing people through it as if it were a road they'd actually want to use. In my town, they show the town hall as being in the middle of a road where the nearest building is nearly a block away. That took several tries to fix, it kept getting emailed back to me as "fixed" but it wasn't. The local Target department store has a phone number from a different area code and the address that shows is from another Target 15 miles away (no, the phone number doesn't match), I reported that probably 18 months ago and haven't heard back about it yet. In my experience, reporting errors to Google Maps is easy, but getting those reports approved is a joke -- it takes way too long and legitimate reports are discarded. Sorry to crash down on your hobby, but my experience has been dreadful; it's not even worth my effort to report errors anymore. Besides, as another AC child poster points out, OSM is CC and probably more worthy of my efforts anyway.

old school (1)

trb (8509) | more than 2 years ago | (#40420839)

LISP had MAPCAR 50 years ago.

Re:old school (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422539)

"LISP had MAPCAR 50 years ago."

And it didn't work then, either.

you Fail I7! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421257)

Re:you Fail I7! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421489)

Nice one! I'll put something like this out next Halloween!

Crowdsourcing = Disruptive technology (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421501)

Crowd-sourced maps don't have to be perfect, just good enough. You don't need to know the pitch of the road to do basic navigation. If you need precise 3D data, you can pay a company that sent LIDAR detectors out to gather that information. There's room for both and the crowd-sourced information has the potential to be quite disruptive to the paid products.

Army of vandalism-reversion bots needed ASAP! (1)

danlock4 (1026420) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421635)

I hope they have an army of bots ready to revert vandalism as soon as the data becomes publically-accessible!

We've already paid for the maps. (1)

XB-70 (812342) | more than 2 years ago | (#40426515)

Contact every level of your government. Impress upon them that you, the taxpayer, has already paid for every map of every road. Demand that they post their jurisdiction's road online and keep it up to date. This will benefit emergency personnel, road crews (by keeping contruction locations up to date) and speed up delivery times.

So, are you calling your government now?? Let's make this happen.

Re:We've already paid for the maps. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40427923)

That was demanded—and granted!—in Finland [maanmittauslaitos.fi] .

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