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PadMapper Gets C&D From Craigslist Over Apartment Listing Maps

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the too-bad-smart-service dept.

Software 140

First time accepted submitter Autumnmist writes "Craigslist has sent a Cease and Desist to PadMapper, a site that does a mashup of Craigslist (as well as Rent.com, Apartments.com) apartment listings and Google Maps. Craigslist is great, but apartment hunting through Craigslist has always been a needle in a haystack proposition, because all apartments for an entire city area are shown in a giant list. PadMapper made Craigslist better by locating each listing on a Google Map of the area. From PadMapper: 'I recently received a Cease and Desist letter from Craigslist, and wasn't able to get a meeting or convince Craigslist's lawyer that PadMapper was beneficial to Craigslist and apartment hunters in general. They allow mobile apps to display their listings if you buy a license from them, but not websites."

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Why only PadMapper? (4, Insightful)

t4ng* (1092951) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421859)

HousingMaps.com [housingmaps.com] has been doing this for something like 5 years. I'm sure there are probably others like it too.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

rollingcalf (605357) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422061)

Maybe they did send a C & D to Housingmaps.com, but Housingmaps lawyer's told Craigslist to STFU. I don't think Craigslist has legal standing to stop others from doing similar things.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (2)

beelsebob (529313) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422237)

Of course they do, the data on craigslist in © craigslist, they can tell you anything about what you do with it.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422317)

> the data, they can tell you anything about what you do with it.

The law doesn't see it that way. They just need to recharacterize it so it's not saying "this is craigslist data"

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

gstrickler (920733) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422443)

Data is not copyrightable. The organization, and presentation of data can be copyrighted, and in some instances, the complete collection data can be. If PadMapper is simply pulling key data and rearranging it into a searchable database, CL has a difficult, and likely untenable, claim.

IANAL

Re:Why only PadMapper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422487)

but the data in craigslist is not pure data, it's sometimes creatively (and sometimes not)- written ads for sales, which makes it no different from modern music lyrics in many respects.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

Immerman (2627577) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422877)

But if you check the terms of service there is nothing about copyright assignment, so the copyright for posts will remain with the poster and CL has no grounds to object on that front.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (3, Interesting)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422865)

"Of course they do, the data on craigslist in © craigslist, they can tell you anything about what you do with it."

No, you are quite wrong.

As recently re-affirmed by the Federal Supreme Court, what is considered "tabular data" is not copyrightable.

There was a case a few years ago, in which a small-town telephone directory company saw a big-name telephone directory company come to town and take over their business.

Due to economies of scale, the smaller company could not compete on a cost basis. So what they did, was just use information from the bigger company in their own listings. The bigger company sued.

Although this was already an established legal principle, it went all the way to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court re-affirmed: if it's FACTUAL DATA -- such as names, addresses, phone numberes, real-estate listings, etc. -- it is not covered by copyright and can be used and reproduced by anybody.

The lesson to be learned here is that you don't want to spend a fortune tabulating data, unless your business model takes into account that if you publish it, others will use it too.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423007)

No, you are quite wrong.

The fact that there is an argument about this is proof that the system is broken.

What is "factual data"? What is "tabular data"? Is it factual to say that the chords to a famous song are C, F, G? Is it factual to say that there is a whole note of A followed by a half note of C# followed by...? How granular can those "facts" be before they comprise the actual song? The completely broken music publishing industry is an example of how this issue can become such a mess that the corporations suffer (a lot less sheet music is sold today) and the customers suffer (because it's a major pain in the ass to buy sheet music, and then you have to download some cockamamie applet that makes it so you can only print the downloaded sheet music once (and you can't print it to a file). Everybody suffers because an industry clings to an outmoded way of doing business. And now, ways of doing business can become outmoded almost immediately, thanks to technology.

Interestingly, there is no free market solution to the problem of intellectual property. Because customers don't care who the data comes from. Further, the user isn't even the customer (there's probably an advertiser who's the real "customer") so you've got one of these third-party transactions that the Internet is so full of (just like old-fashioned TV!).

Maybe, not everything that's worth something should be "own-able". Maybe not everything that's "sell-able" should be "own-able". And maybe information just can't be property any more and we have to all learn to live with that.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423509)

What is "factual data"?

It is actually fairly well-defined by the courts. While I do not pretend this is verbatim (I could look it up but I have other things to do), it is something like:

"Factual data" consists of facts that anyone could discover on their own given due diligence, with no judgment, interpretation, or other value added by the author. Typically this consists of physical data, or public information about individuals or things."

That is not exact, I promise. But they do have a pretty clear, and even reasonable, definition.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 2 years ago | (#40424421)

"Factual data" consists of facts that anyone could discover on their own given due diligence, with no judgment, interpretation, or other value added by the author.

OK, so your definition (or I should say, "the courts definition") means that sheet music is factual data.

I could come up with a perfect transcription of a piece of music from a recording and reproduce it as sheet music. However, if I tried to share that sheet music on the internet, I would be sued, and I would lose. But I guess the original composer "added value" so then it can't be factual data. If I make a painting of a house, is that factual data? What if I were one of the hyper-realists and was trying to depict it perfectly? That cannot be factual data because the architect added value.

And what does it mean to "discover on my own with no due diligence, no judgement, interpretation, value added, etc"?

I guess this is why I couldn't hack it in a court room. Those words can be pretty slippery. For example, what does it mean to "discover something with no judgement"? Or "discover something with no interpretation"? Is that like finding a dime on the street? Or is the act of looking at the ground in case there's a dime there an act of judgement? And didn't I have to use my judgement to interpret the shiny silver object as being money so I would bend over and pick it up? Maybe I'm a little effed up from being out in the sun all day today, but I'm not getting "pretty clear" or even "reasonable" from that definition.

So wait, I've got it: "Factual data" is like a meteor that hits you on the back of the head! Am I close?

Intellectual property is a crime against nature.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 2 years ago | (#40424665)

OK, so your definition (or I should say, "the courts definition") means that sheet music is factual data.

So what if is is? Sheet music (and other forms of music) is specifically covered by copyright legislation. Your slasdottish creative interpretation of a law you haven't even read doesn't take priority over legislation that refers specifically to copyright on musical works.

Really, asking rhetorical questions about a law you've never read just because a slashdot article mentions it, and trying to use that as an argument against IP? How utterly specious.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (4, Informative)

rgbrenner (317308) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422079)

Did you try using the two sites. HousingMaps has a link to craigslist on the front page, and when you click on a listing, it goes to craigslist.

PadMapper has no links to craigslist, and when you click on a listing, they display the listing on their own site without (as far as I can tell) even a mention of where it came from.

Go to a site, scrape everything and present it as your own? Enjoy the C&D.

Seriously, it looks like PadMapper deserved it.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (5, Informative)

rgbrenner (317308) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422101)

I take part of my post back.. they do show the listing in a frame.. so if they had Craigslist's listing on there, it should be clear they are from craigslist

Re:Why only PadMapper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422109)

they show it in a frame, but keep their bar on the side to keep the visitor on their site.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422343)

Most sites use breakout scripts to deal with framers, but framing is generally considered bad practice and often illegal. C&D well deserved, IMHO.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

t4ng* (1092951) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422119)

PadMapper looks pretty much the same as HousingMaps, except that PM is connected to more rental sites than just CL. You click on a link and an overview of the listing is shown is a DIV along with a link to the original listing.

I think rollingcalf has it right. PM just caved. There is little difference between what PM and HM are doing and what any blogger does when they summarize an article from another web site and post a link to the original. Craig's List has no legal standing.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (4, Informative)

ottothecow (600101) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422187)

Unfortunately I am currently looking for an apartment and housingmaps doesn't seem to be a good substitute.

I just pulled up the same area with the same price range as I was looking at yesterday in padmapper and housingmaps only shows two apartments for rent where padmapper was showing 30+ (and most of the padmapper results were craigslist based)

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

TehDuffman (987864) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422131)

Cancelling out my mod point.

Padmapper makes it pretty clear who's ad they are showing.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (1)

rgbrenner (317308) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422189)

Found something else interesting too: A lot of PadMappers links are to PadLister, a competitor for Craigslist. The about page says:

PadLister is the side of PadMapper that serves landlords and brokers. It aims to make it easier and less painful to find great tenants for your rental vacancies. It does this in a few ways.

So not only are they displaying craigslist listings on a frame to keep visitors on the padmapper site, they are also a competitor.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (3, Informative)

cdecoro (882384) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422249)

Unfortunately, HousingMaps doesn't work. If you compare the listings on HM vs those on CL, you will see that HM has only a small, and unclearly-defined, subset of those. In otherwords, it has a bug, and doesn't pull out all the listings. Moreover, it has very limited options for searching, and divides up filters by bizarre factors (for example, I can look for apartments under $750, or between $500 and $1000, but not under $1000.

Unlike PadMapper, which was a site that actually tried to maintain a useful product, HousingMaps appears to have been only a one-off project by some coder looking for something to do (and to be clear, I give him credit for offering it to the world, but it's not the same as an actively developed project).

This is a horrible action by Craigslist. If they don't want their site to be useful, that's fine. But the postings are the property of their posters, not of Craigslist. Presumably, the posters would be happy to have anyone in the world coming to those listings. It should be *their* intellectual property rights that are at issue, not those of the intermediary.

Re:Why only PadMapper? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422915)

There are plenty of similar ones in the UK too, although mainly Gumtree scrapers: kangaroom.co.uk [kangaroom.co.uk] , cravify, nestoria etc etc.

Fuck Craigslist. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421863)

My most sincere wish is that Newmark and Buckmaster both get terminal cancer this year, and that they suffer horribly before
they die. The world will be a better place without them.

Good! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421865)

I'm tired of people doing stuff for free. If you want to do something, you should have to pay for it.

Re:Good! (2)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422245)

Well, had you bothered to read before posting you'd notice that they would pay, if they were allowed to.

Re:Good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422247)

Stop breathing until you're paying someone for it... let me know how that works out for you...

Re:Good! (1)

BlueStrat (756137) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422883)

Stop breathing until you're paying someone for it... let me know how that works out for you...

We are already.

We breathe out that nasty pollutant carbon dioxide that we are paying the EPA to regulate, and paying more for the things that those EPA regulations regulate as a consequence.

I told people ~40 years ago that we'd end up paying the government to breathe if government size, scope, and power weren't limited.

Sadly, I was right.

Strat

Re:Good! (1)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422267)

Normally I'm in agreement with this sentiment. But in this case Craigslist is asking its users to post its content. So why should *MY* posting be copyrighted by craigslist? I want to sell/rent my shit--whoever wants to scrape my listing and repost it is more than welcome.

Re:Good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422411)

You can start by paying an idiot tax for your existence.

Why bother? (4, Insightful)

SlowTurtle (1031756) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421867)

Not only is this a major bummer for me, as I love using PadMapper, I don't see why craigslist would do this. Not only did it make craigslist apartment listings actually usable, but it must be driving a fair amount of traffic to them as well. Perhaps if craigslist was about to launch something similar I could understand, but I think we all know that is not going to happen.

Market Share Abuse, Nothing New (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421893)

The more people using Craigslist the worse craigslist will abuse it's market share.
No doubt if Craigslist was some how paid before hand, they wouldn't care to send their sharks.

Best advice, people should convince their friends to stop using Craigslist and start using something else.

Re:Market Share Abuse, Nothing New (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422321)

Pad mapper is owned by padlister, a competitor to Craigslist. Why should Craigslist let a competitor take their content without payment?

Re:Market Share Abuse, Nothing New (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40423065)

Why should Craigslist let a competitor take their content without payment?

Because it's not their content. If people didn't post ads, Craigslist would turn to an empty wasteland and disappear.

This seems to be the standard method nowadays of monetizing a site in the "information economy." Get people to contribute stuff for free, then charge for admission or slap ads all over it.

Remember Gracenote? They started out as CDDB, the free CD Database. People uploaded their CD track listings voluntarily so we could all benefit from mutual knowledge sharing. Then they starting charging us to access the information we provided them, about CDs they don't own the rights to.

Greedy bastards to a man.

(captcha: intubate)

Re:Market Share Abuse, Nothing New (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422775)

How is Craigslist abusing its market share? It is simply not letting competators scrape the site. Everyone does this. Google doesn't let Bing steel its search results. MapQuest doesn't let Google Maps scrape its maps. It seems there isn't a problem here. In the summary PadMapper listed two alternatives to Craigslist. If PadMapper really adds value then Craigslist will lose market share and the problem will fix itself. Craigslist isn't trying to be all things to everyone. It is tryting to be super simple to use and maintain. For something more complex go elsewhere.

Re:Market Share Abuse, Nothing New (1)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423159)

The more people using Craigslist the worse craigslist will abuse it's market share. No doubt if Craigslist was some how paid before hand, they wouldn't care to send their sharks.

Best advice, people should convince their friends to stop using Craigslist and start using something else.

I fully agree. Know how many times in my life I have looked at Craigslist? Once. Just out of curiosity to see what it looks like. I cannot believe that for a large number of people it is the only site they look at if they want to buy something. My favorites are the people who believe that they simply cannot get cheated on Craigslist and then when they do, they act completely stunned as if such was completely impossible to happen.

Do they actually own a copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421903)

Not being a craigslist user myself (wrong continent), do Craigslist actually own the copyright for the listings? My understanding is that when I put an ad in a paper, the paper might get copyrights to the typesetting (if they did that, ie, classifieds), but the actual content was mine and I'm effectively giving them reproduction rights to that ad.

If this holds true on CL, the third party site wouldn't require a license to reproduce the content of the listings, only the formatting.

Now, I've checked CL's TOU and frankly, it's just confused me more. It's saying that users grant CL the rights to reproduce and sublicense the content the users post, but then goes on to state that the user also gives them the right to pursue unauthorised copies. At no point does it actually say that the user has assigned the actual copyright to CL - which would put this is the same category as the Righthaven situation. IE, without the actual copyright, CL wouldn't have standing to sue.

Any thoughts?

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

Ossifer (703813) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421929)

It's not a copyright violation, it's a terms of use violation. RTFA.

Craigslist is a business, albeit a non-profit one. It is not a government service or a birthright to all.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421943)

And the reason they can license the content is because of Copyright..

So, it is about Copyright after all...

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

Ossifer (703813) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422011)

Uh no, it is a tos violation. RTFA!!!!

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

king neckbeard (1801738) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422347)

But could padmapper even be bound by TOS?

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422441)

Comes down to whether TOS is binding. I think that until an explicit protocol forces you to read a TOS before using a service, TOS are not binding as the information is being publicly displayed prior to acceptance of the TOS.

Using a site should not constitute acceptance of TOS. That's fairly close to entrapment if you ask me.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422015)

Whether or not it's about copyright, the fact of the matter is that the PadMapper guy probably couldn't afford a lawyer even if he was in the right, so he just bowed out.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422127)

That someone is listing an apartment located at xxx on Craigslist is a fact and not subject to Copyright.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (3, Informative)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422259)

TERMS. OF. USE. VIOLATION.

Nowhere in that statement is anything to do with copyright, trademark, or patents.

"If you want to use our service, you will not do the following..." - "Oh, you violated our agreement. Stop it."

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422751)

TERMS. OF. USE. VIOLATION.

Which doesn't matter if there has been no agreement of the terms of use. One can use the site just fine without ever agreeing to anything. The data istelf is not copyrighted by craigslist.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40423971)

Which doesn't matter if there has been no agreement of the terms of use. One can use the site just fine without ever agreeing to anything. The data istelf is not copyrighted by craigslist.

Are you dense? The use of a site implies intrinsic agreement to the terms of use.

Re:Do they actually own a copyright? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40424363)

[citation needed]

It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (1)

hemp (36945) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421927)

Why is craigslist still stuck in the 80's with their user interface?

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (4, Insightful)

Ossifer (703813) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421945)

Yeah, why don't they have seven different competing nav bars and three layers of epilepsy-triggering flash ads?

The plain text UI is *exactly* why CL is popular.

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (1)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422261)

Allow me to politely disagree. CL is popular for apartments because that's where the broker's list. It is a horrible search UI (want to find a place with a washer and dryer? There's no way to specify it is in the apartment, so you end up with listings with shared washer dryer's, washer dryer's on the same block, etc). Brokers in NYC regularly abuse the system, posting falsely under "by owner" and often hiding the broker fee they want to charge. (Even the broker fee disclosure varies significantly, from 1 month to 15% of the annual rent). Also, if you aren't searching in Manhattan, it is difficult to separate out listings by neighborhood, since broker's regularly toss in text of "nearby" neighborhoods. The final straw is all the broker's who put in hidden text, so no matter what you search for, their listings come up. It is a huge pain using craigslist to find an apartment, and they could fix the problem (while retaining a simple UI) in a few easy steps:


1. Do not allow any embedded html other than "a" tags and images.
2. Update the forms to allow postings to specify common amenities/features, and update search accordingly. (Dishwasher, Laundry in Unit, A/C, Floor, Neighborhood).
3. Have a broker fee section, separated from application fee, so broker's must disclose precisely how much of a fee there is.
4. Put text into ANY ad posted under "by owner" stating that brokers posting in this section agree to forgo any broker fee. Make that statement BOLD and on the ad itself, and every step up to the ad's submission, requiring broker's to explicitly acknowledge this. Remove the "broker fee" section, so if they post a fee apartment in the "by owner" section, they are failing to disclose the fee.

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422399)

When you want to add a 's to a word - like broker - ask yourself: do I want to specify that something belongs to the broker? or do I want to say "broker is" ?

This simple exercise will make it a couple seconds faster for everybody who has to stop for a moment while trying to figure out what you really mean.

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421977)

*cringe*.

Don't call it "San Fran"

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422059)

Yeah - call it Frisco because this will annoy them even more. (Writing this from "Man Jose")

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422113)

No no, it's just The City! [youtube.com]

Just because you can doesnt' mean you should. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422039)

Why is craigslist still stuck in the 80's with their user interface?

Who says ?

Just because everyone else has to use every single latest scripting language, technique, eye-candy, whatever doesn't mean it is actually useful.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried clinking on a navigation link only to have some whiz-bangy thingy pop-up and block my mouse click - yeah no matter how you maneuvered your mouse, it triggered the pop-up and you were somewhere you didn't want to be.

It's the typical thing that developers fall into time and time again: there's a language or platform feature and they need to use it somehow regardless of its necessity - just because it's a "Cool" thing to do.

Re:It like the 80's never ended in San Fran (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422449)

You can get all the functionality you ever wanted except distance search by using user javascript. I am using Craigslist Fusion [userscripts.org] to get more functionality. It's still not pretty but it sings and dances. I only use it on my multicore desktop, though, not on my subnotebooks.

With that said, I really want distance search, and craigslist is actually designed to prevent it. The theory is that it will encourage local shopping. But if what I want isn't available here, then I'm still going to want to go get it from somewhere else, and I'm still going to look at other craigslists for it.

Padmapper makes Craigslist useful!!! (5, Informative)

SecurityTheatre (2427858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421935)

Padmapper is the first site I've ever seen that makes apartment hunting on Craigslist actually useful!!!!

WTF?!?

I'm looking for a house in a specific neighbourhood and it's absolutely impossible to do via Craigslist directly!!! If Craig offered a map, I would at least understand why they might issue a C&D, but seriously...

Padmapper links directly into craigslist and displays the full-screen whenever you click on the listing. It's not like they're aggressively scraping content! It's just a searching service.

This is terrible, Craigslist!! Terrible!

Re:Padmapper makes Craigslist useful!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422327)

Padmapper does NOT link directly to Craigslist. They display it in a frame with their nav bar on the side

Re:Padmapper makes Craigslist useful!!! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422341)

Your relatively high ID and excessive use of exclamation marks would have me thinking you're shill, but you're right about craiglist being a bitch to use for apartment hunting.
 
In the cities I've lived, craigslist is the only legitimate option for finding an apartment and yet it has absolutely no facility for geographic searching other than hoping the agents use neighborhood or area names in their listings -- and of course, plenty of agents use popular neighborhoods in their listing to generate hits for their listings in shitty neighborhoods. Keyword searching in general on there isn't very useful, because it's basically like 1999 days of people stuffing the right keywords into unrelated listings. They're so detached from the reality of apartment hunting that their default page always includes surrounding cities. Including the south bay and east bay in San Francisco listings makes about as much sense as including Pennsylvania in NYC listings.
 
You also can't limit the number of bedrooms, which fills your results with extra bedrooms in worse areas or worse condition rather than the exact number you want. How fucking hard would it be to let people search for a particular number of bedrooms, and not that number+everything above it?

Wait (-1, Troll)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | more than 2 years ago | (#40421953)

Craigslist is still around? Who the hell keeps using it?

Re:Wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421993)

whores

Re:Wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422097)

Most on the whores are on Backpage now... And tnaboard.

Re:Wait (2)

SecurityTheatre (2427858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422033)

Wait, are you serious?

The volume of garage sales in major cities dropped substantially in recent years, according to a study I saw, most likely due to Craigslist (and to some extent, eBay).

Classified advertising in most major newspapers declined by 90% or more, almost exclusively due to Craigslist.

Most real estate listing services have gone to a free-to-view model because of (primarily) Craigslist. Most use car listing services have gone out of business or to a free-to-use model because of (presumably) Craigslist.

Who the hell doesn't use Craigslist?

Re:Wait (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422221)

Personally I don't like or use Craigslist, but I don't like or use classified ads either.
I've not bought or sold any item or service using Craigslist or classified ads... ... I guess I haven't found the need.

Re:Wait (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422233)

Who the hell doesn't use Craigslist?

The Whole Wide World outside of US of A.

What Do You Use. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422037)

Craigslist is still around? Who the hell keeps using it?

If not Craigslist then what do you use for free classified advertising?

Last I checked, Craigslist was free/cheap classified ads with the largest user base/viewership of them all. Has this changed?

Re:Wait (1)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422051)

Rednecks. Put an ad up for a used car, and you won't believe the shit you see.

I had an old beater up a few years ago, I'd been offered $800 in trade, but thought I could do better selling it myself. After a week of dealing with CL people, I just scrapped it for $300 - it was worth the loss just to not have to deal with them anymore.

Seriously, who emails asking if the car has a fucking engine? Is that a factoid that is typically omitted as a sales tactic or something?

Re:Wait (3, Insightful)

espiesp (1251084) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422137)

Sounds like you're one of the idiots who posts an ad on craigslist and omits all of the information possible. It's not a newspaper ad limited to 20 words. You can actually tell me a little something about the car you're trying to sell.

"Van for Sale" does not a good ad make.

Tell me what works, what doesn't, what year it is, what brand it is, what model it is, how good the tires are, yes, whether it runs or not, how many miles. Don't omit pertinent facts and I won't have to email you to ask stupid questions. And yes, even if this is a $1000 beater. Take the 30 seconds to write a meaningful ad and take decent pictures and your stuff will sell in a reasonable amount of time with minimal hassle. Also use big words that confuse rednecks.

Re:Wait (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422227)

No, he's right, the people who respond to Craigslist ads are astoundingly retarded (or so bored they are desperate for human contact).

Every time I've posted an ad, I've felt like this: http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/305567/Cinder+Block+Craigslist+Ad/ [funnyjunk.com]

Re:Wait (1)

MagusSlurpy (592575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422425)

Yeah, that's pretty much what the situation was. The ad stated that it was a Mazda 626 that had been owned by a smoker before me, had a falling roof liner and a few rust spots. Had six or seven photos posted, including one of the engine compartment. I listed the things I had replaced recently, including both sets of brakes and the tires. I had the mileage, the trim style, and the options listed (sunroof, power locks, that kind of stuff).

As an example, a level of detail similar to this ad [craigslist.org] . I will admit, I didn't think to state explicitly that the vehicle ran, because I just thought that was assumed for a non-collectible car listed at $1500. Clearly this was an oversight on my part. But it probably wouldn't have mattered, because 3/4s of the calls I received asked me questions that were stated both in the title and the ad itself, like the mileage or the year. I honestly don't understand how those troglodytes were able to extract my phone number from the ad without any other relevant bits of data whatsoever.

Re:Wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422161)

My guess how the ad looked:

CAR FOR SALE

CHEAP CHEAP!!! COME GET IT> AWESOME CAR ONLY $999.00

DONT WAIT, YO U WANT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the middle of apartment hunting right now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421959)

Fuck everything about this. I've been using padmapper to hunt for my first apartment in a city I've never lived in before. Thankfully I got a lot of my stuff over the past week, but what about new stuff? I'll say it again: fuck those useless craigslist pieces of shit.

Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reach. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40421965)

One of the things craigslist tried to do on their "epic" war against bots is hunt down domains, sending the C&D and then getting the ICE to shutdown the site. The site-ops just changed their domain from .com to .net. Those guys are still up. So why not trying something similar, both the Doman and Server offshore.

This really shows how much craigslist is a racket. And is now exploiting the courts to enforce their racket on user-contributed information.

Re:Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reac (1)

Mabhatter (126906) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422049)

To be fair, it's free to post for many cases, so they make their money from ad revenue. If you scrape their site, you get the revenue not them. That's money out of their pocket.

Most sites you can't just scrape... Isn't this basically the same thing we were just harping on FunnyJunk for doing to Web Comics sites? It's been like this for years now.

Re:Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reac (1)

Mabhatter (126906) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422077)

Craig's list would do this THEMSELVES but they would have to PAY GOOGLE to use Google Maps without properly handing over Ad Revenue and search data to Google.

Effectively PaperMapper is doing free processing tI feed Google's search engine!

Re:Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reac (1)

SecurityTheatre (2427858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422281)

How does Padmapper "feed Google's search engine"?

Or did you just make that up?

Re:Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reac (1)

SecurityTheatre (2427858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422183)

Craigslist does NOT have advertising. Have you ever seen any advertising? Where is it?

They make their money on Employment listings in major cities. That's what they charge for. It's the only thing they charge for.

The rest of the site is provided for free, because its "the right thing to do", apparently.

Re:Change Your Domain, where sharks can't get reac (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422313)

If all data is user-generated and free to use, is there anything wrong with scraping that data and providing better information about the data ?

Until there is a clear definition on what user-generated information can and can-not be used for, companies will continue exploit the data to their own benefit.

Are there any rulings on the limit-of-use if that data is free ?

What's the legal basis of C&D? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422005)

If its copyright, then Craigslist is shit out of luck because its not a creative work.

pad mapper is a great service (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422025)

I've used padmapper quite a lot, I wonder what brought about the C&D. Perhaps their crawlers were a little more aggressive than is reasonable?

Why can't CL provide a map display? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422043)

Craigslist should provide this type of map interface for all of their listings. Garage sales, dating,... Why not?

Craigslist Already Took Action.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422117)

If you try using PadMapper now that goes to a post on Craigslist.. they'll give you a blank page (assumingly using just referrals to block it). If you open an incognito window in Chrome and you'll be able to get to it.

Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (3, Insightful)

JDG1980 (2438906) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422205)

It's unfortunate that Craigslist is the most popular wanted-ads site on the Internet, since they insist on remaining stuck in the past, and making it as hard as possible for people to access their content.

Their obsession with "localism" and consistent refusal to implement an all-aread search feature (and consistent breaking of third-party sites which do this) is especially problematic. I collect electric fans from the 1980s, which often don't show up on eBay because people don't think they are worth anything, but commonly appear on Craigslist. An all-areas search would be extremely helpful, but every time one appears, Craigslist either threatens them or does something on their site to break it. If someone doesn't want to ship (I usually offer them extra money in addition to the actual shipping costs if they are willing to do so), that's fine, but it should be their choice, not Craigslist's.

Re:Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (1)

couchslug (175151) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422831)

Mod parent up!

"Localism" benefit NO ONE.

Re:Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (2)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423059)

"It's unfortunate that Craigslist is the most popular wanted-ads site on the Internet, since they insist on remaining stuck in the past, and making it as hard as possible for people to access their content."

Others here have said the same thing, and it is difficult for me to express just how ridiculous this point of view is.

Craiglslist is a "classified ad" service. Nothing more. You don't have a search function in your newspaper. Neither do you have much of one on Craigslist.

Accept it for what it is, or don't use it. Do you have ANY idea how much trouble it would be for the Craigslist people to add specific data fields, and search functions on them? I do, since that's what I do for a living.

If you want that kind of functionality, then go somewhere you can pay for it. Craigslist ain't it. The fact that many others use it to post real estate listings does not make your particular desires any more important to Craigslist, unless you feel like paying for them.

Re:Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40423431)

most popular wanted-ads site on the Internet, since they insist on remaining stuck in the past

Yeah totally man, it's annoying. You need to drop some knowledge up in here and show us how to do it right!

Spend some time and create a mockup of how you think it should look then post it in a 'Show HN" submission on hacker news. Get some adsense love and then sit back and wait for everyone to forget about you. CL is popular because it works. Stop trying to stick your finger in the ass of every successful site on the internet "just because" and learn to do shit the easy way

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dildo+for+sale+%2Bsite%3Acraigslist.org

Re:Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (1)

Man On Pink Corner (1089867) | more than 2 years ago | (#40424395)

No, CL is not popular because "it works." CL is popular because of network effects. They had first-mover advantage, and the resulting network effect was impossible to compete with.

See eBay for another example of a ridiculously-broken user experience that nevertheless cannot be disrupted by a superior implementation alone.

Re:Craigslist wants to remain stuck in the past (1)

cluedweasel (832743) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423807)

Yep. They broke http://crazedlist.org/ [crazedlist.org] but http://searchtempest.com/ [searchtempest.com] appears to still work although it is only pulling in results from the last 7 days.

C&D Letter (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422263)

Padmapper,

Greetings! We see you have listings of our house content in your site. Because your site is awesome and benefit to our site, we have sent you a money order for $10000 as a Thank You for increasing business! Unfortunately our accountant accidentally sent you $15000 instead, Could you please wire back the $5000 over payment. You can keep the rest as a present from us!

Sincerely,

Craig S. List

This makes CL housing useful! (1)

fsterman (519061) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422269)

This is total fucking bullshit, CL hasn't evolved in it's basic user interaction since it began. PadMapper makes their service useful!

Craigslist is stuck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422371)

I don't know why; but they are *stuck*. It's admirable that they haven't gone nuts with AJAX and advertising; but they haven't worked on the things that really matter either.

Real estate listings on there are a joke. It was useful a few years ago, but I watched it get swallowed up in a sea of spam. Real estate listings driven by brokers, in turn, became more open and dropped their requirements to register. MLS fragmentation by region is still a problem; but you can work around it.

A few MLS listings will have errors such as listing trailer homes and condos as SFRs, but on CL you can't distinguish between the two even if you want. It's a real needle-haystack proposition looking at their ads. I hardly ever bother anymore.

They need to do some serious work on the back-end, add some more fields in the DB, etc. It's not like they have no revenue at all. They need to use it more wisely.

I think they're stuck between trying to "keept it real" and actually provide a useful service. I'd hate to see it die; because if it does then the AJAX infested ad-monkeys really take over the Internet, as if they hold on... Blam! BLAM! had to kill some monkeys there. Ok, gotta reload. Bye-now.

CraigsList is awesome, even if you don't get it. (3, Informative)

mr.dreadful (758768) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422405)

I'm always amused when I see people, mostly web professionals, bitch about CraigsList.

The VC and bizdev types hate CL because "CL is just leaving money on the table. They need to understand how to make a profit."

Webdevs hate them because CL doesn't adopt whatever new design trend comes along, therefore CL "doesn't get UX", or webdevs hate them because of situations like this, where some webdev can't build his business off of someone else's platform.

This, compadres, is why you don't take your business public. CL has a staff of less then 20 people, they make plenty of bank while at the same time staying true to their own ethos, whether you agree or not. And the consumers seem to be coming back over and over. And yes, I have heard many people say that this is because CL has been around so long, that they are the 500 lb Gorilla that will never be moved. Uhh, are we on the same Internet? Tell that to Yahoo, MySpace, etc etc.

Here's a Wired article from 2009 that covers the exact topic of CL and site scraping. Maybe PadMapper should have read it first.

Wired Interview with Craig Newmark [wired.com]

Re:CraigsList is awesome, even if you don't get it (3, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422471)

I'm always amused when I see people, mostly web professionals, bitch about CraigsList.

No, users bitch about Craigslist, because their site lacks distance search, and users want it. And yes, I know this is deliberate, and no, I don't agree that it makes sense. And therefore, if they won't permit scraping, they're assholes and I wish they would go the fuck away so that someone who will do a more functional site has a chance to get enough users to make it worthwhile.

Re:CraigsList is awesome, even if you don't get it (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422917)

No location based search REALLY doesn't make sense for apartments, as that is by far and away the most important attribute of a place.

Hopefully this will result in people moving away from craigslist, and posting directly on padlister.com (padmappers own listing)

Re:CraigsList is awesome, even if you don't get it (2)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423091)

Um... I hate to tell you this, but ANYBODY is free to create a similar website, with any business model behind it that they want.

Your argument doesn't hold water, because nobody else has built anything that beats them. Therefore, by simple logic, CL *is* what people want.

Build it better, make a fortune. Nobody is stopping you. Until then, quitcher bitchin'.

Re:CraigsList is awesome, even if you don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40424411)

Are you familiar with the term "network effect," by any chance?

Facebook methods (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40422505)

They'll probably just Facebook it: send C&D, implement the same idea on your own page. Or just buy the site.

Must be a recent policy (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | more than 2 years ago | (#40422955)

They shut down CraigZoom a few months back. It was a great aggregation site that made it possible to do multi-region searches. As far as I know, it's not possible with CraigsList, so essentially they eliminated a feature.

We need mandatory licensing like the British have (1)

BlueCoder (223005) | more than 2 years ago | (#40423151)

One of the things we need in the US is mandatory licensing and a commission that determines fair prices.

Fair use isn't just about usable free stuff. All too often businesses will horde information and IP at unreasonable prices. Information which in the public interest should be available at a reasonable price.

The public gives IP rights holders it's so called "right". The public does this theoretically because it's in the public's own best interest to promote things such as science, literature and art. But the public also deserves value from those it's gives a copyright or a patent and as such in no way it's it a contradiction for it to set fair pricing because without it the "right" holder could claim no income at all.

Take patents. Should I be able to patent a medical procedure that will save lives? What if I said I wanted something unreasonable like a trillion dollars per treatment. The fundamental question is what is in the public's own interest! We should not allow information hoarders. We award creativity and achievement not hoarding.

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