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Two UK Lulzsec Suspects Plead Guilty To DDoS Charges

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the next-stop-siberia dept.

Crime 82

judgecorp writes "Two teens have pleaded guilty to taking part in Lulzsec attacks on the U.S.'s CIA and Britain's SOCA. Ryan Cleary and Jake Davis, aged 19 and 18 respectively, admit to denial of service attacks. Cleary has also been charged in the U.S., but is unlikely to face extradition." However, "... both Cleary and Davis denied allegations they posted 'unlawfully obtained confidential computer data' to public websites including LulzSec.com, Pirate Bay, and PasteBin, in order to encourage offenses contrary to the Serious Crime Act." Two others involved pleaded not guilty to all charges.

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first post (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449607)

first

Re:first post (3, Funny)

Cryacin (657549) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449775)

Two teens have pleaded guilty to taking part in Lulzsec attacks

Since they have pleaded guilty, it has made the world a betterer place to live in. Double plus good.

Aye, now that these meddling kids (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450209)

Aye, now that these meddling kids are behind bars, the CIA can get away with their nefarious plans.

I'm glad they put so much effort into attacking people who DoS'd their site rather than, you know, actually proving any terrorists guilty and getting them convicted of their crimes.

Re:Aye, now that these meddling kids (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451429)

I'm glad they put so much effort into attacking people who DoS'd their site rather than, you know, actually proving any terrorists guilty and getting them convicted of their crimes.

Because the CIA is a team of three people working 30 hours a week...

Age (4, Insightful)

Dexter Herbivore (1322345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449647)

I get the feeling that the bulk of Lulzsec will be about their age or lower.

Re:Age (5, Insightful)

mtinsley (1283400) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449683)

Seems likely. Young and impressionable makes for good cannon fodder for those who are actually running the show.

Re:Age (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449725)

Seems likely. Young and impressionable makes for good cannon fodder for those who are actually running the show.

"those who are actually running the show" are probably also teenagers or possibly young adults. As far as I can tell all targets have been accused of doing unethical things and that kind of activism is almost exclusively done by idealistic youngsters.
Lulzsec is also pretty harmless since it is only dealing with hacktivism and doesn't really try to do "real world damage". To become a Lulzsec you pretty much have that common combination of acting like an ass on a global scale and have an incompetent IT-department. (It's a bit odd how often that happens.)

Re:Age (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40454019)

You mean real world damage like releasing personal information of PSN users?
Real world damage like stalking individuals and making like crap for them and their family?

Re:Age (1)

Uhyve (2143088) | more than 2 years ago | (#40457245)

Psst, wrong hacker group.

The "hackers" who harassed Sony executives were random people from anonymous, and most likely, not hackers. The people who brought down the PSN are still unidentified. Lulzsec did hack and DDoS Sony, but it was nowhere near on the scale of the PSN hack. They did smaller stuff like hacking Sony Pictures/Music and releasing source code from the Sony Dev Network.

I wish people would actually know about the topic before giving their ignorant two cents, I mean, this stuff was being covered every few hours on news sites back then, if you had any interest at all (which you quite obviously do) you'd need to make a conscious effort to not see the details.

Re:Age (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40459889)

You mean real world damage like releasing personal information of PSN users?
Real world damage like stalking individuals and making like crap for them and their family?

Anyone who supports Sony with their money have already done more to harm themselves than Lulsec ever will.

Re:Age (1, Troll)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450289)

For many months it was the FBI running the show and were actively enticing minors into committing criminal acts, which were carried. Note, the FBI also did criminally fail to charge Hector Xavier Monsegur with the serious charge of child abuse for recruiting and leading minors in criminal acts, making those FBI agents guilty of being accessories after the fact and conspiring to obstruct the course of justice, the FBI even lied in court about Hector Xavier Monsegur role, reducing his lead role of child abusing leader to just some abstract 'participant'. Serious crimes for which the FBI has yet to be challenged. Should the UK now force the extradition of Hector Xavier Monsegur and charge him with child abuse for recruiting and leading minors in criminal acts, the law is clear in this matter and UK police are just as guilty, charging at the time minors who where victims of Hector Xavier Monsegur with the criminal acts that Hector Xavier Monsegur, researched, lead and provided the tools to commit.

Re:Age (1)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40460471)

Or they were low hanging fruit. Someone they had a blizzard of info on who they could make some feeble connection to the group.

In the US the ATF sets up stooges all the time.

Re:Age (4, Insightful)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449697)

They may even have just cherry picked the only ones they could find of legal age. I can't believe they only had evidence on two of them.

Re:Age (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449849)

They may even have just cherry picked the only ones they could find of legal age. I can't believe they only had evidence on two of them.

The others all had richer, more connected parents.

Re:Age (2)

xaxa (988988) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450249)

The age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10 in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and 12 in Scotland. (There are ongoing debates over whether the age should be increased.)

However, it's still possible some younger people were identified but not prosecuted.

Re:Age (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449953)

Best time to do online shenigans is when you're under 15. seriously.

because "victims" have to show actual damages and in most jurisdictions it will not show up later on your record + the police don't know how to handle you.

Re:Age (1)

mrmeval (662166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40460435)

Damn what utter and contemptible trade craft. They got...caught. *snicker*

At least they should have gone up in a pyre of thermite, hard drives and silicon.

Now they need more silicone to survive jail.

Not a troll, I'm just damned to pseudo-poetic babbling when disappointed.

 

Are they actually... (4, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449681)

Or are they just two of the many who were gullible enough to participate in a LOIC attack and are now presented as the big bad hackers since that's pretty much all we can get our hands at?

Somehow it smells a bit like presenting a few street dealer busts as the big hit against drug cartels...

Are they actually...unknown? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449713)

How could it be otherwise, since one of the points about such "anonymous" groups is that there is no leadership.

Re:Are they actually...unknown? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449919)

No known leadership, you mean. There's no doubt in my mind that, like with any other organisation, there's only a handful of people who take initiative and decide what's going to happen, regardless of whether they're officially leaders or not.

No, he meant no leadership. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450705)

There *ought* to be doubt in your mind, since otherwise you're believing on FAITH that there is a leader. You have no evidence. Nothing other than your belief that it is so.

Worse, a belief that WILL NOT CONDONE the thought you might be wrong.

That's a fundie faith.

The 11/9 bombers had a faith that had no doubt. Just like yours.

Re:No, he meant no leadership. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451059)

You sir have autism.

Re:Are they actually...unknown? (1)

hackula (2596247) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451381)

Maybe in the same sense that Ashton Kutcher and the Biebs are the leaders of Twitter and, as such, coordinated the protests in the Arab Spring... behind the scenes, of course.

Re:Are they actually...unknown? (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450897)

Of course there is leadership. Just because they hide behind aliases does not mean they're anonymous. These ringleaders are the inner circle of people who develop the tools, run the chat sites, conspire to attack particular sites, incite others to do likewise, release stolen data and so on. It may be harder to identify these people but it only takes authorities to "turn" one or two of this inner circle to grab the rest.

Re:Are they actually...unknown? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40457485)

LOIC is open source and would take about 30 minutes to reimplement.
Most of the IRC channels are run on public servers, until they get kicked off and move to another one.
Most of the talk to attack particular sites comes from a general consensus on sites like Reddit (4chan used to be used for this, but that Anonymous and the "hacktivist" Anonymous split a long time ago)
The media is probably the most important "leader" that incites people to join. If they were educated at all about how it works, they wouldn't portray a 5 hour DDoS attack and a few guessed email account passwords to the sort of l33t h4ck1ng that can turn your home computer into a bomb & blow your family to smithereens. They are the ones who make it look cool and get kids to join.
Releasing stolen data can be done by anyone too. It isn't exactly hard to make a torrent and put it on TPB.

There are no leaders. Just a few fucksticks that have the attention of the other little wannabe anarchists for a little while, before they move on.

Re:Are they actually...unknown? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40457543)

What? Is the <a href="http://imgur.com/8XuOr"></a> not working now? Fucking idiots. That bold part was supposed to link to: http://imgur.com/8XuOr [imgur.com]

Re:Are they actually... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449755)

Correction, they ALSO got the real guys. These are just a few irc tag-alongs they threw in for fun.

Re:Are they actually... (4, Interesting)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449799)

The older people in most groups have be turned at some stage and are free but owned for life, are active undercover assets or can be turned before arrests.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/18/patriot_games [foreignpolicy.com] hints at larger undercover operations in the 1990's surrounding groups in the USA. Infiltration, undercover agents and informants. Go back to the 1960's - no peace or rights group in the community was going to be active without a file.
The idea that the internet was not going to get the same careful monitoring seems to be based on the hardware needed.
They just need to bait people with a good story and well meaning site. Skills and names drift in. New informants created, a show trial and promotions enjoyed.

Re:Are they actually... (3, Insightful)

Adult film producer (866485) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449943)

probably the real thing. i read the story and apparently they had some hacker .SH and .PL scripts on their computers that implicated them as masterminds in the plot to cause havoc on the foreign systems. Very likely they were the kingpins of this operation.

Re:Are they actually... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449969)

According to other articles, Cleary ran the Lulzsec IRC server as well as a large botnet that he used to DDoS victims. One of the others that plead not guilty was the infamous 'Kayla', who pretended to be a 16 year old girl but was actually a 25 year old trans-gender.

Re:Are they actually... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450279)

Almost all good female hackers are transgender.

(Of course, there are some bad ones too, like Kayla.)

This interesting social observation is somewhat distorted by the hiring practices of certain companies which practice positive discrimination, like Google. This is one reason positive discrimination is so annoying - instead of studying why some field is oddly represented, people try to artificially hide the problem, meaning it will take longer to identify/solve any problems.

Re:Are they actually... (3, Informative)

detritus. (46421) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450001)

Jake Davis aka Topiary was one ofones who also was involved with cracking [youtube.com] one of Westboro Baptist Church's website during a live interview with the Phelps on the David Pakman show. He was more than the average click-and-run an automated DDoS client.

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DDoS is Hacking (4, Insightful)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449839)

And making instant noodles is cooking.

I can't believe their wasting their time to go after these teenage kids. There's plenty more where they came from, and ruining their future is only going to give the pro-lulzsec crowd ammunition. It's a really dumb move, and certainly not what I would do if I were the prosecution. Then again, I'm fairly my having a brain excludes me from being part of those clowns.

What these people who do their best to take down groups like LulzSec, Anonymous, etc. don't understand is that you can't take them down. This isn't a militia, a terrorist organization, or a code monkey who wants to get back at the work that laid him off: this is an idea, and a very powerful one. Anonymous's very nature is that it is anyone and everyone, there is no centralized network. LulzSec does not elect presidents, and they do not have a chain of command.

The idea is that individual liberty and the common good is important above all else. Censorship and tyranny stands in the way of this goal, and the only thing these companies are doing is adding fuel to the fire, by proving they're the very entities that need to be stopped.

The only way anyone could possibly put this to an end is if they arrested and detained every free thinker, anyone who believe in liberty and the free exchange of information, and anyone who won't bend over backwards when Uncle Sam comes to violate our rights and freedoms. We have a word for that, it's called a dystopia.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (4, Insightful)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | more than 2 years ago | (#40449947)

It's just the classic intimidation method of law enforcement. You can't catch them all, so you just catch a couple, and them utterly destroy their lives in order to make a public example of them. Then that example serves to scare other potential criminals straight.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (5, Insightful)

Thanshin (1188877) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450005)

Has that method ever worked in the history of mankind?

Fear doesn't create compliance, just secrecy. And harm (physical or otherwise) doesn't only create fear, but also hate. So they are turning an existing enemy into a better hidden and more hateful enemy. What a fantastic result, they must be proud of their strategical prowess.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (3, Insightful)

Spy Handler (822350) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450371)

Has that method ever worked in the history of mankind?

Yes it has, actually. Many people I know would rob banks if they were sure police wouldn't bother to arrest them.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451609)

Um. That's not the same thing at all. We catch most bank robbers. If we only caught 1 in 1000, even if they were summarily executed, people would be robbig banks all the damn time.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

qbast (1265706) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450545)

So they are turning an existing enemy into a better hidden and more hateful enemy.

So? You can't make people love you, but you can definitely make them fear you. And fear is better for control anyway.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450651)

better enemy => bigger budget
3) profit

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40464127)

Thanks. You gave me a following step in the reasoning I can actually believe. A bit depressing, but truth often is.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

KingMotley (944240) | more than 2 years ago | (#40454609)

Yes. It works quite well actually.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (4, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450065)

I can't believe their wasting their time to go after these teenage kids. There's plenty more where they came from, and ruining their future is only going to give the pro-lulzsec crowd ammunition. (...) I'm fairly my having a brain excludes me from being part of those clowns. What these people who do their best to take down groups like LulzSec, Anonymous, etc. don't understand is that you can't take them down. This isn't a militia, a terrorist organization, or a code monkey who wants to get back at the work that laid him off: this is an idea, and a very powerful one.

No, they're the same kind of rebel teenagers that used to do vandalism and tagging and in general rage against the machine when I grew up. They got no plan, no agenda except to strike out randomly and cause mayhem, with gang leaders shouting "let's flip that car" but little more than that, a mindless beast with zero attention span. Script kiddies and their wannabe groupies that would like to be script kiddies are exactly the same in online form, and I don't mind the police giving them a good slap and telling them to grow up. Go back to what you wrote, when did you last see very powerful clowns? Even when they do cause mayhem, they're still just clowns.

Re:Parent is a moron (0, Flamebait)

miknix (1047580) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450179)

No, they're the same kind of rebel teenagers that used to do vandalism and tagging and in general rage against the machine when I grew up. They got no plan, no agenda except to strike out randomly and cause mayhem, with gang leaders shouting "let's flip that car" but little more than that, a mindless beast with zero attention span. Script kiddies and their wannabe groupies that would like to be script kiddies are exactly the same in online form, and I don't mind the police giving them a good slap and telling them to grow up. Go back to what you wrote, when did you last see very powerful clowns? Even when they do cause mayhem, they're still just clowns.

Uuuuuhhuuu! There is a lot of hanger going on here. Relax, they are just kids and the act of randomly vandalizing is just part of the learning process - sure there are limits. If you didn't stay at home playing with dolls, maybe you had learned it too! Since you did not, you are just afraid of those kids and raising hell for what they are doing instead of actually putting yourself in their position. IF SOCIETY actually didn't marginalize them and provided the means for them to mentally and physically evolve, certainly they wouldn't be at the streets burning hormones by breaking stuff. We need more hackerspaces, we need more youth associations. WE DONT NEED MORE RESTRICTIONS AND REASONS TO MARGINALIZE THEM!

It is exactly for people like you that these kids are doing what they are doing. Seems like you actually prefer to call the police and totally avoid them instead of actually going there, talking to them and actually understand WHY they are doing what they are doing!

Re:Parent is a moron (0, Flamebait)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450349)

Relax, they are just kids and the act of randomly vandalizing is just part of the learning process

That you think random acts of vandalism is a natural part of growing up speaks volumes of you and presumably the shitstain you grew up in. While I'm not going to make any claims of sainthood the people that went past pranks and looting the apple tree and into pure vandalism were mostly assholes that had no respect for other people or other people's property or other people's work. Hey there's a nice garden where someone has worked many hours to make a flower bed, let's just tear it up for the lulz. That you're trying to psychobabble that into being society's fault sounds like a pathetic excuse.

Re:Parent is a moron (3, Insightful)

miknix (1047580) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450433)

You seem to completely fail to understand how the mind of kinds work at that age. I'm no expert at psychology but this is plain obvious. Most of them are still in the process of developing their adulthood and when every adult around them seems to disagree with their thoughts, it is plain natural the kids start absorbing the thoughts from somewhere else which they identify with. In the streets, that person would probably be some group leader. Having that, then it is just hormones and the willing to impress others that makes them behave badly - because unfortunately, failing to respect others and destroying stuff is the easiest way to show that "you have the balls". THIS IS WHERE SOCIETY FAILS COMPLETELY.

At this age, kids actually need some good leadership. Sport teams actually provide that up to some point, with an adult coach giving good directions to kids while agreeing and motivating them during the games. Hackerspaces are a good place to motivate and giving them good directions too. But we need way more than that. Schools need extra-curricular practical activities ....
So this is were I disagree with you. We don't need to call the police when they behave badly, we don't need to marginalize them! We do need to impress them and grab their attention and only them, we can teach them a valuable lesson.

Re:Parent is a moron (2, Interesting)

qbast (1265706) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450599)

You seem to completely fail to understand how the mind of kinds work at that age. I'm no expert at psychology but this is plain obvious. Most of them are still in the process of developing their adulthood and when every adult around them seems to disagree with their thoughts, it is plain natural the kids start absorbing the thoughts from somewhere else which they identify with.

Who cares? It is "natural" for hungry predator to eat a human and yet we don't allow that. Those kids are going to live in society and they have to live by society standards, no matter how "unnatural" those standards are for them. They can either break and conform or spend their lives in place where they cannot be danger to others - prison.

In the streets, that person would probably be some group leader. Having that, then it is just hormones and the willing to impress others that makes them behave badly - because unfortunately, failing to respect others and destroying stuff is the easiest way to show that "you have the balls". THIS IS WHERE SOCIETY FAILS COMPLETELY.

The only failing I see here is that this kind of behaviour was not driven out of them earlier. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

At this age, kids actually need some good leadership. Sport teams actually provide that up to some point, with an adult coach giving good directions to kids while agreeing and motivating them during the games. Hackerspaces are a good place to motivate and giving them good directions too. But we need way more than that. Schools need extra-curricular practical activities .... So this is were I disagree with you. We don't need to call the police when they behave badly, we don't need to marginalize them! We do need to impress them and grab their attention and only them, we can teach them a valuable lesson.

Yes, of course. Lets make hooliganism mainstream to avoid "marginalizing them". I am honestly sick of idea that indulging every whim of a spoiled brat is a way to raise a child. Actions have consequences, that's the lesson they should be taught.

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

miknix (1047580) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450753)

Who cares? It is "natural" for hungry predator to eat a human and yet we don't allow that. Those kids are going to live in society and they have to live by society standards, no matter how "unnatural" those standards are for them. They can either break and conform or spend their lives in place where they cannot be danger to others - prison.

Who cares? It is "natural" for hungry predator to eat a human and yet we don't allow that. Those kids are going to live in society and they have to live by society standards, no matter how "unnatural" those standards are for them. They can either break and conform or spend their lives in place where they cannot be danger to others - prison.

uuuhaa! Talking about extreme!
You do realize there is a learning process, kids don't turn into adults in one day? You cannot just dump social ethics and standards into them and expect them to learn! You do know that the human learning process is based on trial-error, right?

Also, what would you do if someone told you when you were a kid that you cannot play GTA / Left 4 death anymore because it is too violent? Would you just STFU and obey? It is because of this restriction / impose the rules nonsense mentality that you and a lot others have that we are getting the internet filtered.

Re:Parent is a moron (2)

qbast (1265706) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450947)

uuuhaa! Talking about extreme! You do realize there is a learning process, kids don't turn into adults in one day? You cannot just dump social ethics and standards into them and expect them to learn!

'Turning into adult' is a slow process that starts at young age and is guided but constant pressure from parents to adapt to social norms. But many parents instead choose total leniency, 'let kids be kids' and then they are surprised when their precious snowflake gets completely unmanageable as teenager. Those "kids" from TFA are 18 and 19, they are adults in eyes of law and at this point they should be able to take responsibility for their actions. If they were allowed to stay kids for 18 years and only now they wake up and notice things like 'social ethics', then parents failed badly. And you suggest even more leniency?

You do know that the human learning process is based on trial-error, right?

Also, what would you do if someone told you when you were a kid that you cannot play GTA / Left 4 death anymore because it is too violent? Would you just STFU and obey?

Trial and error works only if there are consequences of error. Otherwise why don't just repeat the error?

It is because of this restriction / impose the rules nonsense mentality that you and a lot others have that we are getting the internet filtered.

Yawn, why don't you accuse me of stealing candy from little kids too? "Internet filter" is needed only for parents that try to push part of responsibility for raising their kids to state. And you should have noticed that I am all for responsibility.

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

miknix (1047580) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451009)

Those "kids" from TFA are 18 and 19, they are adults in eyes of law and at this point they should be able to take responsibility for their actions

Ooops! Sorry I thought we were talking about a younger age, I misread TFA. At 18 it is indeed expected they have enough maturity already.

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455281)

An all too often quoted phrase, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." And I say this because it's wrong, sparing the rod saves the child from a life of violence, as the APA has so wonderfully pointed out time and time again. Corporal punishment is not the answer.

"Ah!" you may retort, "I meant a metaphysical rod!"

Think for a moment. If I do remember the article correctly (I dare say I do), then at least one of the teenagers is a straight-A student. Not your vandalizing, druggie, won't behave son -- someone who is actually bending over for our medieval attempt at education and succeeding. What are we doing by discouraging this behavior?

Teenagers, as psychology teaches us, tend to have a very romanticized view of morality. We teach them to be kind to others, that everyone is equal, etc., and what do they end up doing when they look into the world? Do they see a fair, civilized society? They see protests in Syria having their human rights violated while everyone else sits on the sidelines. They see an Egyptian military coup. And they learn that the US is supporting dictators who are oppressing their people -- the same US they were taught was all for freedom, democracy, and the common good.

Now they open their eyes and the picture is shattered. Corporations lobby and succeed to promote legislature that would benefit their profits at the detriment of other people, people are suffering in countries like Haiti, and the RIAA/MPAA is cracking down AGAINST teenagers for copyright infringement.

There was a group of rebels who lived by the principles our dear teenagers are living by. We call them our founding fathers.

Maybe these kids have the right idea, maybe all of our adult selves sitting down and trying to talk to a government disinterested in anything but profit is a waste of time, and we should give them a reason to listen to us,

Oh and this is all about a DDoS attack? Ha.

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#40452753)

At this age, kids actually need some good leadership. Sport teams actually provide that up to some point, with an adult coach giving good directions to kids while agreeing and motivating them during the games. Hackerspaces are a good place to motivate and giving them good directions too. But we need way more than that. Schools need extra-curricular practical activities ....

What we need is leadership that is not completely ethically bankrupt. These are kids who care about something. We don't need to placate them with the artificial importance of sports. We don't need to indoctrinate them into becoming good worker bees.

These kids are justifiably outraged with the state of the world. You don't fix something like this with extracurricular activities. You fix this problem by doing something about the corruption in our government. You fix this problem by giving the people a voice.

I'd be willing to bet that if we saw national law enforcement priorities set rationally, instead of to protect the interests of the powerful, and if we saw regular prosecutions of the authorities when they overstep their legal powers then there would be far fewer citizen attacks on the CIA and SOCA.

Why would any well meaning, well informed young person want to become a productive member of society, when the fundamental underpinnings of society are so deeply flawed?

Re:Parent is a moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40453307)

What we need is leadership that is not completely ethically bankrupt. These are kids who care about something. We don't need to placate them with the artificial importance of sports. We don't need to indoctrinate them into becoming good worker bees.

Well sports was just an example. From practicing a collective sport game, I think one gets the understanding on how to work in a team, follow rules (the game's ones) and obey orders (the couch ones). You can replace "sports" with scouts, youth political/science/art associations, etc.. My point was that it is our fault (society) if the kids wander around in the streets without anything to do, because in that case they will certainly find something to kill their boredom which might not please other people..

These kids are justifiably outraged with the state of the world. You don't fix something like this with extracurricular activities. You fix this problem by doing something about the corruption in our government. You fix this problem by giving the people a voice.

Well.. Somewhat agreed. Extra-curricular activities put the kids busy with something, shows them that they might be good at something and evolves their critical thinking which is good since now a days kids seem to admire brainless people - for this I would blame the broadcasting media.

Why would any well meaning, well informed young person want to become a productive member of society, when the fundamental underpinnings of society are so deeply flawed?

Exactly! What are the fundamental underpinnings of society? The future generations! From the moderation status of my previous posts, it makes me sad to think that a lot of people here think that the bad behavior of kids is only other people's problem. It is like they didn't stop for a minute to think that they are also included in the kids environment and because of that their actions and behavior also influence the kids actions and behavior. I would call this the - it is not my son, it is not my problem - kind of thinking. I guess for some, society only works in one way..

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#40453933)

My point was that it is our fault (society) if the kids wander around in the streets without anything to do

You assume they did this because they didn't have anything better to do. Did you consider that they looked at the world and concluded that striking out in impotent rage was possibly the best thing they actually could do? It won't work, of course, but at least it's better than collaborating.

Well.. Somewhat agreed. Extra-curricular activities put the kids busy with something, shows them that they might be good at something and evolves their critical thinking which is good since now a days kids seem to admire brainless people - for this I would blame the broadcasting media.

These kids are already thinking critically. They've thought critically enough to understand that the CIA and SOCA are not the good guys. That puts them far, far ahead of most of the population.

That's also why the law enforcement response has been so robust. If these were just hooligans, spray painting in an alley they'd get far less trouble from the authorities. If they were bullies, assaulting children on their school bus daily, they'd probably get no trouble at all. Instead, they take on the established power structure and get what's coming to them for being uppity.

Exactly! What are the fundamental underpinnings of society?

Greed and hubris, as far as I can tell. This isn't a youth problem at all. It's a rational response to corruption at the highest levels.

Re:Parent is a moron (1)

hackula (2596247) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451587)

This totally worked out in Clockwork Orange.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (3, Funny)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450107)

Then again, I'm fairly my having a brain excludes me from being part of those clowns.

I think you accidentally a word.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40458389)

I accidentally my coffee too :(

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450119)

Bullshit. They are not thinking or speaking. They are acting.

They probably have nothing serious to say on freedom. They are just a bunch of exalted teenagers (hopefully this will be taken into account in their case). Why such hotheads can do things like they did is simply a sign of the immaturity of the whole internet ecosystem.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40458371)

And how North Korea can treat the people they can is a sign of immaturity of the whole world government ecosystem. Let's get our logic straight people.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450237)

I'm sorry, but you are essentially saying "crime" can't be taken down, as its not a centrally controlled organisation, militia, terrorist organisation - these people, whether part of a larger "organisation" or not, committed a crime and should be punished for it (if found guilty).

LulzSec, Anonymous etc has got nothing to do with hippy shit like "free thinking" and everything to do with getting away with what they can, when they can - if people purporting to be acting under their banner commit crimes, then those people should be prosecuted.

Its cute and all to try and claim oppression for these idiots, but they are bringing it on themselves by acting outside of the law - the only way this could be a Rosa Parks scenario is if Rosa Parks was arrested for fire bombing the bus companies headquarters.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40458327)

Holy strawman batman! Is that what I said? But I do appreciate you equating a DDoS attack to fire bombing a bus HQ, I like your analogies, very colorful.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450819)

"I'm fairly my having a brain excludes me from being part of those clowns."

Snigger

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40458253)

I only have half a brain before I get my coffee ;)

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450863)

I can't believe their wasting their time to go after these teenage kids. There's plenty more where they came from, and ruining their future is only going to give the pro-lulzsec crowd ammunition.

At eighteen and nineteen they are no longer kids.

It's time the geek stopped making excuses when any of his own are looking at hard time.

Anonymous's very nature is that it is anyone and everyone, there is no centralized network. LulzSec does not elect presidents, and they do not have a chain of command.

It is not anyone and everyone.

The mob has its leaders.

Those who start the ball rolling and those who keep it in motion.

Patterns emerge over time. People talk too much. Never more so than when they are in it for lulz. The kick. The drug-like high.

You are always more exposed, never as anonymous on the Internet, as you think you are,

Re:DDoS is Hacking (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | more than 2 years ago | (#40458451)

Really? At eighteen you magically get automatic adult knowledge? That didn't happen for me, maybe it got mixed up in the mail.

Re:DDoS is Hacking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451071)

Releasing stuxnet and flame into the wild was a much more dangerous act to the economy, etc.

Hacking is not Cracking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40449971)

They didn't crack anything, they used vulnerabilities to gain access, there is a big difference.... Doesn't stop the government parading them about for the media points...

The people running the firewalls need their arses kicking, any firewall breach that occurs does so because the lazy arse in charge of security didn't do his job properly, any extranet that allows someone to gain access to internal systems is badly configured because whoever coded it was lazy and didn't secure it properly...

Cracking is an art form used by people who have to work hard to get to data hidden behind secure firewalls, using vulnerabilities in badly configured and insecure systems to breach a firewall is something script kiddies do...

I can implement three layers of custom built firewalls for about £5K, makes me wonder if some of these government agencies are just relying on a single router setup for their 'security'.

Re:Hacking is not Cracking (4, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450159)

Don't be a prat.

"I didn't break into your house to get photos of your wife, you used a lock that wasn't compliant to British Standard BS3621 as required by most insurer's and I overpowered the only person in the house who was your granny. I just exploited your vulnerabilities."

Sorry, can't do me for breaking-and-entering, criminal damage, theft, assault, copyright infringement, privacy invasion, ....

Re:Hacking is not Cracking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451583)

He didn't say thast these people are any less culpable than what he calls 'crackers'. And if what he says is true (that this is largely possible due to poor security) then the reporting undermines the much more worrying incompetence in the targetted organisations.

Put it this way: if you were paying someone to secure your house, and some guy just wondered in and poked about, you'd expect the criminal to be arrested, and your man to never work in security again.

Re:Hacking is not Cracking (1)

Jesus_C_of_Nazareth (2629713) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450837)

If crackers aren't using vulnerabilities, borne of either bugs or configuration issues, then what are they using? Some kind of magical abilities unknown even I'm unaware of? I think my son they you are romanticising crackers.

Re:Hacking is not Cracking (0)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451099)

"They didn't crack anything, they used vulnerabilities to gain access, there is a big difference."

you are correct. Someone that does real hacks are truly skilled, the other is nothing more than a ankle biting script kiddie.

And you must suck at IT security. I can implement three layers of custom built firewalls for about £500

What kind of overpriced junk are you buying?

Who's lulzing now? (2)

Rogerborg (306625) | more than 2 years ago | (#40450241)

18 is a legal adult. These aren't kids, and they knew what they were doing was wrong. They didn't care because, you know, the lulz.

Should the "real kingpins" be the ones in the dock? Sure. But in the meantime, should these people be held responsible for their actions? Yes, by all means. They were the strong preying on the weak, and if the law doesn't exist to prevent that, then what is its purpose?

In the USA it's too young to shag. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40452025)

Which rather screws up your argument, since you're complaining about them doing it in the USA. Well there, they are NOT considered full adult, considered still enough of a child to be regulated against their wishes as an adult.

The future is better (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40454625)

0 is a legal human. These aren't automatons, and they know what they were doing is right no matter what they claim in defense. They cared because, you know, they could.

You can too. Anyone can, and that is the unlimited power of Anonymous and other entities like it.

Don't like DDoS? Fine do whatever you do like. Only the enemy will try to force your decisions.

Unlikely to face extradition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40450397)

Yeah, sure, because we all know that will not happen, right?

Let them be a lesson to you all... (2)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451049)

Only a idiot hacks from his home or a place they can identify you from OR you get bloated and start letting people know who you are and you start boasting about your "sploits"

Hacking 101 stuff. Why are these kiddies not learning the golden rules?

Re:Let them be a lesson to you all... (2)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40452469)

The E911 Hacker Crackdown [mit.edu] found that many hackers are compulsive braggers. Something about their personality makes it hard to avoid when someone actually expresses interest (even if it is a police officer who is only interested because he wants to prosecute).

unfortunate... (1)

uncanny (954868) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451075)

It's unfortunate that they will be going to prison for something so worthless. I'm not saying they shouldn't, they broke the law and they knew what they were doing. But we've all see the xkcd comic about it. Their lives will forever be altered and the CIA simply got a headache for a day.

Re:unfortunate... (2)

DaveV1.0 (203135) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451241)

Their lives will forever be altered

Who's fault is that?

Re:unfortunate... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40451517)

it's ur fault, u cowardly pussy !

"teens" (1)

DaveV1.0 (203135) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451215)

They are both adults and should be treated like and expected to act like adults. And, they should receive adult punishment.

Re:"teens" (2)

Tokolosh (1256448) | more than 2 years ago | (#40451823)

At least in England they are old enough to buy a beer.

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