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Immigrants Crucial To Innovation

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the melting-pot-of-ideas dept.

Patents 463

gollum123 sends this excerpt from the NY Times: "Arguing against immigration policies that force foreign-born innovators to leave the United States, a new study (PDF) to be released on Tuesday shows that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. Conducted by the Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math, the so-called STEM fields that are a crucial driver of job growth. ... The Partnership for a New American Economy released a paper in May saying that other nations were aggressively courting highly skilled citizens who had settled in the United States, urging them to return to their home countries. The partnership supports legislation that would make it easier for foreign-born STEM graduates and entrepreneurs to stay in the United States. ... The study notes that nine out of 10 patents at the University of Illinois system in 2011 had at least one foreign-born inventor. Of those, 64 percent had a foreign inventor who was not yet a professor but rather a student, researcher or postdoctoral fellow, a group more likely to face immigration problems."

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Half-true (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455595)

Highly specialized Ph.D's, sure.

Low-rent H1-B scum, absolutely not. Kick the fuckers out.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Half-true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455851)

Well, tell that to your highly specialized american CEOs who hire them

Re:Half-true (4, Insightful)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456375)

Replace the CEOs with H1bs and you'll get better results.

still... (1)

polar red (215081) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455615)

haters gonna hate, no matter what.

Re:still... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455695)

haters gonna hate, no matter what.

I hate haters.

Re:still... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455895)

I hate hater haters.

Re:still... (3, Funny)

million_monkeys (2480792) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456097)

I hate hater haters.

I love hater haters because i hate haters.

Re:still... (4, Insightful)

sycodon (149926) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455813)

Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.

Re:still... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455949)

what's the difference between legal and illegal migration ?

Re:still... (3, Insightful)

Ziggitz (2637281) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456183)

Thousands of dollars and years of your life spent waiting for your number to be called in an INS office.

Re:still... (1)

Xiaran (836924) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456427)

I thought the INS was absorbed in the Dept of Homeland whatever its called. Not American so I could be wrong.

Re:still... (0)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456235)

what's the difference between legal and illegal migration ?

I really hope you are not serious.

But in case you were, legal immigration is getting permission, a visa or some paperwork from the embassy to move to that country. You plan on getting citizenship in that country. That process can take months or years. Illegal immigration is just going there and hoping to not get caught.

Show ID, get a medical screening, ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456249)

what's the difference between legal and illegal migration ?

Legal: Someone shows up at the border (perhaps after waiting "in line" to emigrate and/or get their paperwork) and meets with an immigration official. They show their ID, get a medical screening for contagious disease, etc ... You know, the sort of stuff that happened at Ellis Island and other locations for many decades.

"Despite the island's reputation as an "Island of Tears", the vast majority of immigrants were treated courteously and respectfully, and were free to begin their new lives in America after only a few short hours on Ellis Island. Only two percent of the arriving immigrants were excluded from entry. The two main reasons why an immigrant would be excluded were if a doctor diagnosed that the immigrant had a contagious disease that would endanger the public health or if a legal inspector thought the immigrant was likely to become a public charge or an illegal contract laborer. "

http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_history.asp

Re:still... (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456401)

Conflating the two causes an intellectually dishonest debate. Period.

Re:still... (3, Funny)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456003)

shhhhh, that ruins the entire argument! I mean if the media was talking about immigration honestly, instead of lumping people who come here legally and those who break the law and come here illegally is pure pandering, I am surprised in this day and age it even works any more.

no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did

Re:still... (5, Insightful)

Beardo the Bearded (321478) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456069)

no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did

Kill everyone who's already living here, throw the survivors in reservations, and strip-mine all the resources? 0_o

As a European (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456191)

Yeah. We can get rid of our religious fundamentalists again and our criminals can go down under. Brilliant!

Re:still... (3, Interesting)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456209)

>>>Kill everyone who's already living here

90% of the Indians were killed-off by a bacteria and viruses. The Europeans experienced the Plagues of the 400s and 700s and also the Black Death in the 1400s. The native americans did not have exposure to any of these diseases, until the 1600s and 1700s, and it wiped most of them out.

>>>throw the survivors in reservations

The Supreme Court TRIED to stop that practice by issuing decisions that the Indians did not need to move, but the slave-owning Democrats who were in charge (like Andrew Jackson) decided the Supreme Court can shutup, and moves the Indians anyway.

>>>strip-mine all the resources?

Running-out of resources sounds like a good reason to limit population growth to me (by closing the borders & only allowing legal immigrants). Else come the 2030s we won't be able to feed ourselves or heat our homes, due to scarcity.

and now... (-1, Flamebait)

publiclurker (952615) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456441)

to show the total level of depravity spewed my morally bankrupt people like yourself. Why don't you tell us how much better it was for your grand pappies slaves than it was when they were back in Africa.

Re:still... (4, Insightful)

jhoegl (638955) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456221)

Your information is correct, up until the end.
Unless you are joking, we force imported people from Africa, we took Irish off the boat to fight in the Civil War for legal status, we have allowed and exploited illegal immigrants for many years (See 1980s/1990s Asian importing of illegals).
Do I wish everyone was legal? Yes. I think they can and are exploited, used as slaves, held for ransom, and paid small and illegal wages because of their status.
To top that all off, if you increase your immigration without control, you will soon find yourself in a situation where food is not highly available, resources are strained, and governments can collapse. There are cases in history where this has happened.
So... if you want to tie it up into a neat little package of "racism" or "prejudice" you are dead wrong and highly uneducated about the issue.

Re:still... (1)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456377)

we can argue on slavery one way or another, Obviously no one is for slavery (today) but at the time, they were sold by their own people, and treated as a comodedy. Its not fun trying to defend slavery for an argument so im going to be easy but plain and simple they didnt have a choice, they were sold to us, and they were property. so yeah, you can make the case that not ALL of us came here "that way" but it would only be if you do not take the times into consideration/

Re:still... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456295)

Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.

Lots of people are. That's why the quotas are so drastically small. My step-father rants all the time about Mexicans diluting our superior culture. Why don't we raise the quota of Mexican 100x? I bet we'd have very few illegals then, but that's not what you want is it?

Everyone should be FOR illegal immigration (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456367)

Low-rent H1-B scum, absolutely not. Kick the fuckers out.

We really have to let people understand that ANYONE that's willing to immigrate, illegal, legal, H1-B, or whatever, is already miles above the average American citizen.

There really is no difference between any of these immigrants. You want these people in your country. You want them over the average American citizen.

Immigrants, illegal or legal, work harder than the average citizen. Their crime rates are lower than the average citizen. When an illegal moves into your neighborhood, the crime rate goes down. Illegals perform the work that Americans never want to perform, such as picking strawberries or cleaning toilets. In fact, if an American actually does those jobs, that's an indication of a failure in the system: we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to educate an American in the public school system, and they end up cleaning toilets? THAT'S a failure.

Really, the only demographic in America that are concerned about illegal immigrants are uneducated libertarian-leaning whites. If their social status is threatened by illegals, then perhaps we should reconsider their citizenship in the first place. You really don't deserve anything more than an illegal, just because you're BORN here. All your citizenship rights should be put on hold until you actually earn your citizenship by graduating college. Unfortunately, you're not special, no matter what your conservative right-wing parents told you. Sorry to break it to you. I really don't feel like I should pay my tax dollars to support you instead of some hard working illegal that deserves more of my tax dollars.

This is the is the same fuckwit demographic that buys guns (worthless garbage), thinks advertising is bad (you guys have no idea how many people buy magazines and newspapers BECAUSE of the advertising), hates socialism (they should move to Somalia if libertarians hate America so much) and generally believe in their own false superiority... you know, your typical Slashdot reader.

Seriously, you libertarians should just stop being libertarian. Drop it like a bad habit. It's silly, childish thinking, with too much idealism and 'belief', instead of any real-world value. You libertarians haven't thought your cunning plan all the way through. You should know why paying taxes to benefit lazy people actually ends up benefitting you. You need to stop looking at the immediate effect of your incorrect beliefs, and understand that long-term effects happen due to a far more complex system than what children can understand.

BTW, I don't understand why people still call it "illegal" immigration. There actually is no crime for overstaying your visa, which is what the vast majority of illegals do. It's still only a civil violation.

Another BTW, the exact opposite of the libertarian white male uneducated demographic is the Jewish female. You guys are pretty much the opposite of each other.

Re:still... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456369)

Really? That hasn't been the case every time someone brings the H-1B topic to /..

What hate? (2)

sarysa (1089739) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455909)

I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life. Is there really that much blurring going on between legal and illegal immigrants? There is a distinct difference, even though it tends to be left out of news reports. I bring this up because illegal immigration is the hot topic of the week and it seems like some slashdotters aren't picking up on the difference either.

Though I have heard that legal immigrants frequently get jerked around by the system. I've heard nothing but sympathy for this when it comes up in conversations with -only- other native born folks. (which means they're not being two-faced about it)

Re:What hate? (3, Informative)

million_monkeys (2480792) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456323)

I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life.

I have, many times. And i would be surprised if you actually haven't. A lot of it takes the form of racism. I've heard people told "go back to ________". There are numerous immigrant small business owners who suffer abuse solely because they are (or are perceived to be) not native americans. The stereotype is Korean store owners in non Korean communities, who are purportedly prime targets, especially when things start to go bad.

Not so much... (4, Informative)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455929)

While I'm sure there are some out there that are 'haters' as you put it....

I think the majority of US citizens are very welcoming of legal immigrants that come here and (hopefully) want to become American citizens...and meld into our culture.

We're especially welcoming of legal, documented immigrants that have education and skills.

I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?

Re:Not so much... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456041)

Illegal immigrants ? you mean the ones that have fled their home country that has been torn apart through the meddling of American corporations and their cronies in the government?

Re:Not so much... (4, Insightful)

orthancstone (665890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456167)

I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?

If only "just signing the guestbook" was as simple as it sounds. Go look up the actual process and you'll find out really quick why some people avoid the legal route: It's loaded with bureaucratic red tape & bullshit and, in the cases of some key foreign nations that supply many of our legals and illegals, chocked full of corruption right down to the bottom level of officials.

I appreciate those who go through all of that to do it the legal way, but the reality of illegals is similar to the whining about free markets: Gov't regulation is making it hard for many to play fairly, so many just break the rules and pay for it when they get caught.

Re:Not so much... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456431)

Exactly. The immigrants that contributed so significantly to innovation came at a time of legal immigration. When we had a process. It isn't even comparable to the flood of illegals that we have today, streaming in across the southern border at night and living their lives underneath the radar of the system. I want to encourage the fresh new blood of immigrants into this country. That's what MADE this country. That's why we're a bit different than other countries.

But fucking LEGAL immigration for fuck's sake. And it doesn't make you a racist, hater, bigot, etc -- to desire LEGAL fucking immigration.

Re:still... (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456103)

Your post is the true source of hate; you don't like someone's argument so you revert to grade school name calling ("haters!"). In an era of ever-increasing oil prices & food prices, it makes logical sense for the U.S. (or EU or China or any country) to try and stabilize the population at a sustainable level to make the coming crisis less painful. Hell even the UN is currently holding meetings about how to stop population growth - does that make them haters?

Re:still... (3, Insightful)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456177)

In an era of ever-increasing oil prices & food prices, it makes logical sense for the U.S. (or EU or China or any country) to try and stabilize the population at a sustainable level to make the coming crisis less painful.

You seem to be unaware that the populations of both the EU and the USA are increasing solely because of immigration. Birthrates in the USA and EU are already below replacement rates.

Theoretically, China is also already into permanent population decline, but it's unclear to what extent the One Child Per Family laws are ignored/bypassed....

Somewhat unsurprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455659)

A breakdown by country/culture would actually be interesting to see.

When we invite or grant safe haven to ... (2)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455671)

... those who already are highly educated and working on something, we benefit at the loss to other countries.

Re:When we invite or grant safe haven to ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455807)

Yes, but that situation may foster cooperation among the educated that would otherwise not exist. Through this cooperation, the whole may be greater than the sum of its parts.

bullshit (-1, Troll)

Stumbles (602007) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455677)

bullshit

Re:bullshit (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455863)

exactly. Leftists in the media just keep pushing immigration down our throats. In particular, this study wasn't about immigrants at all, it was about foreigners, there's a difference, lots of foreigners come to our state-of-the-art universities (we haven't scared all of them off with the DHS and the TSA yet).

Meanwhile, the media asks both Presidential campaigns how they are going to go about advocating for amnesty for illegal immigrants, because it's "the most important issue to an key emerging demographic", and suggesting that it's RACIST not to.

The reason foreign students are important to American higher education is that they are cheap, since they are very often paid by foreign governments. Everyone in every American math and physics department knows this. This story is shameful, its subtext is shameful, and the NYT should be ashamed of itself, but won't be, because the Grey Lady thinks its mission is to push leftist memes.

Re:bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455981)

Its an invasion by any other name. A way to do it via ignorance and never firing a shot.

Re:bullshit (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456433)

Leftists?

I don't really see any of the corporates wanting anything done about illegal immigration. Bush II was pretty hep on keeping a good supply of "slave" labor in for the southern states.

To paraphrase (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455699)

People are compelled to come to learn US technology at the behest of their tyrants, then use the worst part of our legal system to extort money from the rest of us.

And we need this how, exactly?

Re:To paraphrase (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455867)

Another way to put it: Patents are not a reasonable proxy for innovation and contribution to the economy. They harm the economy, they do not help it.

So bottom line... (2, Insightful)

the computer guy nex (916959) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455713)

Legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad.

Re:So bottom line... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455767)

And patent count is no measure of innovation.

Re:So bottom line... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455873)

Whereas student-slave count -is- a reliable measure of tenure.

Re:So bottom line... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456127)

What? Are you suggesting that patenting any mundane activity by adding the phrase "with a cell phone" isn't innovating?

That's crazy talk!

Re:So bottom line... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455815)

Not even... this equates patents to innovation which is pretty much BS considering the number of patents (mostly worthless/BS) generated by companies these days. What it really says is that immigrants are more likely to follow corporate guidelines about patenting anything that can be.

Re:So bottom line... (1)

allcoolnameswheretak (1102727) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455953)

Mkay.

Re:So bottom line... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456015)

Immigration is good period.

Every immigrant has to eat, have a place to live, get to work, play, etc. These are jobs created at home.

Offshoring destroys job opportunities, not immigration.

As for driving down wages. Maybe some instances of that at the bottom, but there are also instances of immigrants raising wages (immigrants tend to be more militant about labor rights, than their American born cousins); it was immigrants who led the transit worker strikes in NYC.

My Take (4, Insightful)

Mindscrew (1861410) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455717)

I don't have any problems with people going through to correct immigration process to come to the "land of opportunity".
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship.

My beef is with the illegal immigrants that sneak into the country, work under the table and not pay their fair share of taxes, and then get government assistance and benefits at the tax payers expense.

If you want to come to the US, then GREAT! i think that's wonderful!..... Just do it legally and pay your taxes like everybody else.

Re:My Take (5, Insightful)

berashith (222128) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455841)

this is always confusing to me. People here illegally live somewhere. They have to at least pay rent, and at some point, the landlord or property owner is paying property taxes. This funds local government and schools, and seems to me that is just as much of a contribution to those as any other non-home-owning tenant. Also, working does often require a tax id or ssn. These are often forged or stolen for illegal workers. There is tax paid on the money earned, but it is credited to someone else who actually owns the ID being used. The illegal immigrant will never recoup the social security paid in this way.

Re:My Take (2, Informative)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456079)

you seem to not see many illegals, let me give you a breakdown

every morning there is a group of around 20-30 illegals standing outside of lowes and home depot, they wait until someone drives up, points to them and says wanna make a few bucks, than they go, start hammering or doing other things that high school students should be doing to learn a hard days work, They dont pay taxes on the money cause they get paid around 80 bucks a day cash off the books. Than they send around 60 of that back to mexico, taking it out of the american economy.

as someone who did construction in highschool, I know this is how it goes down, ive had to work with them in the past.

Employers are accomplices. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456315)

You seem to be waaaay out of date on how they get work.

every morning there is a group of around 20-30 illegals standing outside of lowes and home depot, they wait until someone drives up, points to them and says wanna make a few bucks, than they go, start hammering or doing other things that high school students should be doing to learn a hard days work,

Where I live the INS and DHS have sent all of those folks back home.

Illegals that are still here in the country have the HELP of their employer. That's right, if an illegal is here in the US WORKING, they have the help of the employer. Don't anyone tell you different. WHy? Because there are so many checks on worker status now that you NEED an employer to be an accomplice.

Re:Employers are accomplices. (1)

ganjadude (952775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456411)

maybe where you are, in orange county NY this is still the norm (yes, all the way up in NY)

Re:Employers are accomplices. (1)

berashith (222128) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456421)

exactly.
Everyone in the loop knows that the SSN is fake.

Re:My Take (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456139)

Studies show that people that live here illegally use resources that they do not pay for (education for their kids, medical services, etc). They also send a huge amount of money back to Mexico. Many of them work for cash and don't pay taxes.

Re:My Take (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456151)

Shut up fool, this is the typical American circular logic crap they teach in second grade now, what a fool.

Re:My Take (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456347)

Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, white countries for everybody!

Everybody says there is this race problem. Everybody says this race problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this race problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this race problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

What if I said there was this race problem and this race problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a race problem. I am talking about the final solution to the black problem?

And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

Re:My Take (1)

fishthegeek (943099) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456353)

The property taxes would have been paid regardless of the immigration status of the tenant so I'd be really careful connecting those dots. As for having a ssn to gain employment I would suggest you go to the local "work today & paid today" shop to see how vigilant those folks are with paperwork. Often the immigrants are paid in "cash" with little or no record. Also there is the local construction business. Often the immigrants are found somehow (see work today & paid today) and offered a days employment for cash as roofers and other unskilled laborers. I live in an area where these things happen all the time and I am willing to bet you do too. As for paying their share, in the United States anyone making thirty thousand dollars a year or less consumes more government resources than they contribute in taxes (they pay about 4K/year and the federal government spends on average 19K per taxpayer/year, and that does not include the deficit spending which would add another 4+)

Re:My Take (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456419)

Let me ask a question. What country would you sneak into and live where you think they would let you stay after discovering you're not a citizen? It's common sense that countries have citizens and laws and somehow the US is supposed to set all that aside and trivialize what it means to be a citizen.

Re:My Take (1)

TheSync (5291) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456121)

If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship

So I am a poor unskilled Mexican with no family in the US. Please post the URL to "the correct process of obtaining citizenship"?

If you can't, than consider recognizing that for most people, there is no "correct process".

Re:My Take (1)

Millennium (2451) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456261)

If I'm reading things correctly, you would start with Form I-140 [uscis.gov] , which covers workers of a range of skill sets, including unskilled workers.

Re:My Take (1)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456333)

Re:My Take (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456383)

If you can't, than consider recognizing that for most people, there is no "correct process".

If there's no 'correct process', it's because Americans don't want them in their country.

Why should anyone other than an American have a right to live in America?

I'm an immigrant myself, and the 'correct process' took years. When you let illegals jump the queue you're taking a big dump in the face of those who obey the law.

Re:My Take (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456259)

Maybe you're not aware of this: the people who come here illegally don't come here illegally to avoid taxes.

People come to America illegally because there is a restricted number of spots open for legal immigrants and they are unable to get in legally.

If we would allow more people into the country legally, and perhaps reduce the complexity of the immigration rules, we could dramatically reduce the illegal immigration problem.

For example, here's a link that shows how complex and arbitrary the rules are:
http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/immigration-flowchart-roadmap-to-green-card.pdf

If you are willing to support fixing the laws to allow more people to immigrate here, then GREAT! I think that's wonderful. ;)

Re:My Take (1)

Millennium (2451) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456299)

Any state has a legitimate right, and for that matter a legitimate need, to control its own influx of immigrants. What you are suggesting is only trivially different from uncontrolled immigration.

The Partnership for a New American Economy (2)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455721)

Any time I parse something like "(Partnership).*(American|(Econom(y|ic)))", I immediately lump it into the right wing propoganda bin.

Re:The Partnership for a New American Economy (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456361)

And any time I parse something like (MS)NBC, I immediately lump it into the left wing propaganda bin. Actually now that I think about it, I barely watch Cable News at all... it's all just corporate-owned propaganda. I listen mostly to RT or DemocracyNow or Infowars ("We are in the middle of an infowar." - Hillary Clinton.)

it depends right? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455749)

cute asian STEM grad girls: Yeah!
cute eastern european girls: Oh yea! does not have to be any stem..

those brown H-one-bees: kick them out! them foorinneers are takkeeeeing our jaaabs! terrorists! illegals!

Correlation and Causation (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455753)

Universities like non-citizen researchers because, as indentured servants, they cost less.

Not to imply that they aren't doing their fair share of research, but they make up a significant portion of the university research body. Of course they'll be on a significant portion of the results.

immigrants crucial to cheap and exploitable labor (2)

sl4shd0rk (755837) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455763)

It's a nice employment loophole for corporations to get cheap labor instead of having to relocate or off-shore. It's that simple. Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.

Re:immigrants crucial to cheap and exploitable lab (2)

TheSync (5291) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455897)

Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.

So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?

Maybe Sergey Brin's parents should not have been allowed to come to the US. Then we wouldn't have Google. Would more programmers be employed?

By your logic, if we kill all the programmers in the US, unemployment will fall to zero! Woo hoo!

Re:immigrants crucial to cheap and exploitable lab (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456135)

So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?

Depends if you consider a US citizen working at a local restaurant that wouldn't exist without the demand generated by all those foreign workers a benefit. Technically yes...

Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that local restaurant who could hire a different US citizen. The economic benefit is actually greater.

OK, so how many were ILLEGAL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455773)

Yes, many immigrants were and are very influential in the development of a significantly large number of patents. That's wonderful. So how many of them were illegal immigrants?

Basic probability (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455809)

Given that >~ 50 % of STEM students are foreign-born, and a typical research group consists of 3-4 people, the odds of finding a foreign-born student in a research group composed of randomly selected students should be about equal to or greater than 90%.

So what seems interesting to me is not the UI number, but the statistic for the rest of the country. Three out of four seems extremely low.

Wow (2)

SGDarkKnight (253157) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455819)

You mean that the smartest and brightest are not all born in the USA? I'm shocked.

Re:Wow (1)

ArsonSmith (13997) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456407)

Nope, but they move here eventually.

Those are not the immigrants people hate (4, Insightful)

sandytaru (1158959) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455823)

As much grumbling as there is in the tech sector over the HB1 folks (legal status), the average Joe out on the streets is far more resentful of the uneducated migrant workers picking strawberries than they are the post docs with PhDs filling up the universities. The former ones are lowering the wages at the bottom end of the scale for everyone by providing cheap, illegal labor. The smart, educated ones are a minority - and probably speak English pretty well, too.

Re:Those are not the immigrants people hate (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456197)

Joe doesn't want to do that shitty job, what he want's, but doesn't know because this is America, is better labor protection laws, unions that deserve that name and a social security net.

I hate it (4, Insightful)

Hentes (2461350) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455857)

when number of patents is used as a measure of innovation. It's only a measure of who has the most lawyers.

Stop conflating (1)

MikeMo (521697) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455959)

I wish people would stop conflating "immigration" with "illegal immigration". They're not the same - immigrants are the lifeblood and the roots of the US. Illegal immigration is a blight. They're different people. Folks - of all races and nationalities - that come here illegally generally are different than the people who jump through the hoops and do it legally. If they can make it in their own country they don't find the same need to break the law and come to the US.

Regardless, the very fact that they entered the country illegally is sufficient cause to want them to leave.

Re:Stop conflating (1)

BlackSnake112 (912158) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456403)

Also the illegal immigrants usually do not want to blend in, or be part of the US. They keep their original language. They wan the US to adapt to them. The legal immigrants usually adapt to the US. They make an attempt at learning English. They try to fit in.

Good Explanation (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455965)

So that's why 3 out of every 4 patents coming out of research universities are garbage!

Do immigrants play a role in drafting laws and international treaties for Washington by any chance?

So we need better greencard policies (4, Insightful)

microbee (682094) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455979)

It takes 5 years or more for people from certain countries (India/China) to get a greencard after they obtain advanced degrees in the US.

Politicians don't care or talk about this, because these people don't give them enough votes. That's the problem.

Motivation (2)

benjfowler (239527) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455987)

The hungry dog gets the bone.

The sort of people dominating STEM in the English-speaking countries are precisely the people we want: hungry, ambitious, motivated and with something to prove. We need more or them, and in any case, if we don't get them, then somebody else will. They contribute to OUR bottom line, or potentially, to somebody else, like China, who hate us and don't share our values or morals.

People who are talented, and prepared to move countries to work hard and make the world a better place, should be honoured as heroes, not vilified or rejected.

I Think Enough is Enough (0)

LifesABeach (234436) | more than 2 years ago | (#40455989)

My taxes pay for state run universities to exist. When I see my children work hard for their grades, good enough to get into any university, only to see others with parents that did not contribute a single dime, get allowed to go to the head of the enrollment line; that's when I see my children get hurt. Why must America's children be the victim of a petty Chancellor's greed?

I think India getting pissy over not being able to purchase an F-22 Rator says it's time to reconsider BRIC.

Re:I Think Enough is Enough (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456219)

So you're saying state universities shouldn't allow in students from other states? (Someone from Arizona, and someone from China, both contribute the same tax money to UC Berkeley...)

wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40455991)

So Slashdot is now pro-universities-filing-patents? Is it because Soulskill gets to publish something science-related as long as he gets his gets to promote his leftie agenda while he is at it? Universities filing patents... bad... immigrants (legal ones) were involved in it and can be used to make a vague emotional connection through knee jerking to the illegal immigration debate... good... Honestly, Soulskill....dude.... Get a life.

Seems to me (1, Insightful)

GT66 (2574287) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456019)

that all this study proved was that people given jobs do their jobs. However, the crux of the argument around immigration is *who* is given the job. Let's be honest, there are ONLY a few reasons that a country of 300 million people would ever *need* foreign born researchers: they work cheaper, they were recruited to strategically keep them out of the hands of other countries, our "domestic" educational system is a failure and lastly, self-loathing. All the rest, like this is just justifying after the fact as a way to evade actually stating the reasons I gave above.

Suddenly number of patents is a good metric?!?!? (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456023)

Look, I am an immigrant, and I would like to believe I helped rather than hindered the innovation in my neck of the woods in America. (Though no patents, only trade secrets). But we have seen a constant barrage of postings and threads about how broken the patent system is. The speed with which patents are created is exceeding the speed of light. (But still it would not violate the theory of relativity because they carry no information ;-)). Suddenly using the number of patents issued to foreign born scientists and engineers as a yardstick to measure the innovation contribution of my fellow immigrants, just because it supports my point of view, does not seem to be right. If we are really contributing to the innovation scene here, we should find better metrics than merely the number of patents.

Apples and Oranges (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456033)

They are countering an argument against H1B abuses that keep wages low on the lower skilled tech jobs by giving examples of how, when H1Bs are used correctly, they work as intended.

The "Partnership for a New American Economy" is lobbying for larger numbers of H1B visa to be issued so they can continue to have cheap foreign labor. I have nothing against H1B workers. In fact I work with more than a few and I enjoy working with them. They are students and scientists working on an international project and this is a legitimate purpose for a H1B. In fact, one of my coworkers just recently became a citizen.

It's the large number of H1B workers coming in for the sole purpose of keeping wages low that irritates me. Of course, corporate minded conservatives will be quick to point out that they are producing jobs in the US but will bury the fact that they filled them with foreign workers. The upside being that the money will spend a short time domestically and some of it will be spent on consumables and rent before the balance is exported home.

Anyway this propaganda piece is making arguments completely out of context of what is being lobbied. For starters, what is the number of innovations versus the number of H1B awarded?

Re:Apples and Oranges (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456077)

The problem with overly restricting H1B visas is that the corporate response would be to just move more operations offshore.

That would obviously be worse.

Re:Apples and Oranges (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456415)

The problem with overly restricting H1B visas is that the corporate response would be to just move more operations offshore.

Could that be the real reason for free trade zones? Free as in corporations can always threaten to leave in exchange for more favorable terms from the government at the expense of its citizen.

Besides that argument rings hollow to me. Corporations wouldn't want to give up any political clout by moving too much offshore. This would make them more or a pariah than an ally. There are plenty of foreign owned corporations moving to the US that would love to take that US corporation's place in line to influence law makers.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' 'GRUNTS !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456117)

This is America !! Get back on your and go back to Immigrantland where you belong !!

Out of indigenous people to take advantage of? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456297)

It's obviously easier for the (investment) banker / politicians to exploit immigrants to leach off their productivity, at least for a while longer.

I think their argument may be flawed. (1)

wcrowe (94389) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456303)

It sounds like they are arguing to change a broadly applied visa policy to support the one-in-a-million foreign-born propeller-head who actually produces a patent. I am skeptical.

Immigration is simple (5, Insightful)

Okian Warrior (537106) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456309)

This whole thing about immigration (legal or not) is simply ridiculous.

Like most industrialized nations, the rate of population growth of the US is declining. We would be under replacement rate already were it not for immigration.

The population growth rate is in decline even with the current rate of immigration [cis.org] , which is at historically unprecedented levels (about twice as many as the early 1920's).

Illegals make up a disproportionally large segment of the prison population, but overall, violent crime is way down [cbsnews.com] . (Blacks also have a disproportionally large prison population.)

Thinking that the country cannot sustain the influx, or that these people will somehow reduce our standard of living by requiring more services, or increase the crime rate is simply not supported by the evidence.

Then there's the innovation. Jobs come not from existing businesses, but from starting new businesses, and from new-ish businesses growing large. Immigrants tend to make the most of their opportunities by inventing new things, starting new businesses, and encouraging their children get educated and become successful (source [amazon.com] ).

Then there's the infrastructure. Illegal immigrants don't contribute to the infrastructure by paying taxes (as much), but at the same time they become a burden on the infrastructure by avoidance. They avoid the hospitals until something becomes an emergency, they don't alert the police to minor situations before they get out of hand, and so on.

Then there's the exploitation. Illegal immigrants have no recourse when their employer abuses them.

It would almost seem, from a completely neutral viewpoint, that just allowing illegals to become citizens would be a win all around.

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

Perhaps someone can craft a reasonable sounding "what if" scenario that outlines the sophistry for me? I'm not having any luck identifying any evidence-based reasons.

Wow, no non-STEM patents? (3, Funny)

Pluvius (734915) | more than 2 years ago | (#40456337)

the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math

As opposed to all of those patents in English lit and women's studies, I suppose...

Rob

A sub-category of immigrants is important (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456349)

This says that a sub-category of immigrants is important for innovation. Specifically (surprise, surprise!) advanced students from abroad who come to American universities proceed to make discoveries. It does not say that immigrants generally are important for innovation, or that these discoveries wouldn't have been made in their home countries.

Legal immigrants (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40456453)

Most legal immigrants have a long way ahead of them. First one needs to be qualified enough to find a sponsor for the visa (aside from the Indian H1B farms). Next, a sponsoring employer needs to file the petition and actually hire the worker. Once the petition is approved, the prospect immigrant needs to apply for the visa at the consulate. Once this is approved the immigrant will relocate to the U.S. and will work for an X-amount of years for that employer while the permanent residency application is started. For most immigrants, this is a long and slow process (PERM, I-140, AOS) which can take years.

Any well-qualified legal immigrant who goes through that process will have already shown to be someone that has endurance and the will to succeed. I am not surprised that legal immigration is crucial to innovation. Here in Silicon Valley, where I relocated to a couple of years ago, I see many highly skilled foreigners coming up with great ideas and products. Not because they are better than US citizens, but because they have endurance and mental strength.

On a side note, isn't it true that 99.9% of the current US citizens are immigrants as well? The fact that your (assuming a citizen reads this) great-grandpa moved to the US in 1881 and mine didn't does not mean that our heritage is different :-)
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