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164 comments

first (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465271)

first

Unit? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465319)

Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Software developers earn $90... per what?

Re:Unit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465337)

per unit of work (some people call these transactions), of course.

Re:Unit? (3, Funny)

Kergan (780543) | about 2 years ago | (#40465345)

Per anum.

Re:Unit? (0, Troll)

balouderbaer (2563063) | about 2 years ago | (#40465361)

you misspelt anus

Re:Unit? (1)

johnsnails (1715452) | about 2 years ago | (#40465567)

I thought only pussies per not anuses

Re:Unit? (0)

alphatel (1450715) | about 2 years ago | (#40465859)

you misspelt anus

Per hole

Re:Unit? (4, Insightful)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about 2 years ago | (#40465365)

It should say software developers "are paid." Whether they actually "earn" it . . . is an entirely different matter.

Re:Unit? (4, Interesting)

Bigbutt (65939) | about 2 years ago | (#40465473)

I imagine it's in thousands of dollars per year as it makes sense.

[John]

Re:Unit? (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#40468621)

Ya it seems like it's in thousands. Per hour figures would be crazy high. It would be pretty rare for an under 25 starting developer to be making 140k a year.

Re:Unit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466133)

Megawatt hour?

Re:Unit? (1)

darkwing_bmf (178021) | about 2 years ago | (#40466349)

That's the first thing I noticed as well. The article says per year. So $90 per year comes out to... 4 cents an hour.

Re:Unit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467125)

from the graphic you saw $90 on: "median annual base salary"

Re:Unit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467409)

The numbers are in thousands, per year, so $90 should be read as $90,000 per year.

Re:Unit? (1)

Grayhand (2610049) | about 2 years ago | (#40468857)

Call me stupid, but I don't get it. Software developers earn $90... per what?

You should see what overweight balding right wing pundits get paid.

Annoying slide show looking for hits (5, Informative)

Kergan (780543) | about 2 years ago | (#40465341)

The results are spread on a gazillion ad-littered pages whose content are shorter than this text field. Even the print page has ads on it and only includes the current page you're viewing. How do I mod article -1?

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465359)

Simple, don't read it!

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (1)

Gilmoure (18428) | about 2 years ago | (#40468383)

Uh... This is slasgdot.

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (1)

Quakeulf (2650167) | about 2 years ago | (#40465383)

What's the fascination with slideshows anyways? Who pushes for those and how do they push for those?

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (2)

will_die (586523) | about 2 years ago | (#40465465)

It is for managers. If they don't have slide shows they don't know what to do.

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466011)

posting as AC since I don't feel like logging in...

I'll wager a decent guess that it has more to do with the ad dollars.

You see, a website gets paid on the "page views" of ads, so it makes tons of sense from their (the website developers & publishers) perspective to do galleries instead of articles. An honest article page would be just 1 page. Instead, they break down the article's paragraphs into separate page views and put them into these ad-riddled galleries, thus generating 5...10...15+ times the page views for the same article.

Anytime I see a "7 things you should know about... blah blah blah" etc..., I automatically know it'll be a stupid gallery setup and a waste of my time...

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (2)

Bigbutt (65939) | about 2 years ago | (#40465481)

Yea, AdBlocker popped up a full menu of external links and added a bunch more when I permitted the Dr Dobb's site.

I used to read Dr. Dobb's magazine way back in the day, "Running Light Without Overbyte". They're certainly not "Running Light" any more.

[John]

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (4, Funny)

tgd (2822) | about 2 years ago | (#40465655)

The results are spread on a gazillion ad-littered pages whose content are shorter than this text field. Even the print page has ads on it and only includes the current page you're viewing. How do I mod article -1?

Clearly their webdeveloper discovered they were at the bottom end of the scale ...

Or should be.

Re:Annoying slide show looking for hits (1)

L4t3r4lu5 (1216702) | about 2 years ago | (#40465683)

How do I mod article -1?

By disabling advertising on /. until they have to fire an editor to stay afloat.

Underemployed? (1)

Richard Dick Head (803293) | about 2 years ago | (#40465357)

I tried to take the survey, but I couldn't complete it. I'm a cow meat solutions architect.

I wonder if they bothered to include everyone what the salary breakdown would look like.

what skillsets (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465479)

Towards the end is the charts about age and how the number of people in the field drops off quite a bit in the 40s - and their salaries.

I'm curious as to what the break down of the jobs that the older folks do that they're still employed. The two folks who I know who are still slinging code are an embedded systems guy and the other one programs 'C' on a legacy DOS system.

Re:what skillsets (2)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 2 years ago | (#40465919)

Towards the end is the charts about age and how the number of people in the field drops off quite a bit in the 40s

Soylent Green is people!

Re:what skillsets (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467735)

Are you reading the same charts that I am? I see a breakdown that says 19% of staff are 35 or younger. Leaving 81% to be 36 and older. Same chart says 49% of staff is 45 and older. Now I'm _old_ (50). And I know math has changed a few times since I was dodging the T-Rex's on the way to school, so could you explain to me using simple terms from your new math how "the field drops off quite a bit in the 40s". Unless you meant the 1940s?

Dr. Dobbs' analysis, too - staff+management percentage drops off significantly after age 55. Really? D'uh!!!!!

Oh, and by the way, you're embedded systems guy is your only actual 'code slinger'. The rest of you are bells and whistles ...

It's sad (5, Interesting)

Bigbutt (65939) | about 2 years ago | (#40465517)

Dr. Dobb's Journal (DDJ) was a monthly journal published in the United States by CMP Technology. It covered topics aimed at computer programmers. DDJ was the first regular periodical focused on microcomputer software, rather than hardware. It later became a monthly section within the periodical InformationWeek called Dr. Dobb's Report and is now a news website published by United Business Media

Dr. Dobb's Journal of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics & Orthodontia
Running Light Without Overbyte

How sad is it that such a great resource for us programmers way back in the day is now just a news aggregator. :(

[John]

Re:It's sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465829)

Dr. Dobb's Journal (DDJ) was a monthly journal published in the United States by CMP Technology. It covered topics aimed at computer programmers. DDJ was the first regular periodical focused on microcomputer software, rather than hardware. It later became a monthly section within the periodical InformationWeek called Dr. Dobb's Report and is now a news website published by United Business Media

Dr. Dobb's Journal of Tiny BASIC Calisthenics & Orthodontia
Running Light Without Overbyte

How sad is it that such a great resource for us programmers way back in the day is now just a news aggregator. :(

[John]

Eh? Taking that criticism at face value would lead one to ignore an interesting article on LLVM
http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/240001128

It may not be the DDJ for which you so adorably pine, but a simple news sump it ain't

Re:It's sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465853)

How sad is it that such a great resource for us programmers way back in the day is now just a news aggregator. :(

Are you saying that they just post news items from other places? Glad I don't read them. I mean what sort of a crappy site does a thing like that!

You've been busy! Looks like you've hit your 2 article limit.

Actually, in all seriousness, its this message which sucks beyond description.

Re:It's sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466601)

Especially sad since THE most important factor, location, is barely mentioned let alone quantified. Geography will alter these numbers by as much as 30% or more! So everyone expecting to earn, 70k, may be surprised at offers which max out at 50k, etc.

Is that the so called "american dream"? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465557)

Those salaries are the same (if not lower) as here in Munich (DE).
And we don't have to pay for a private health insurance or a decent pension.

Keep your "dream" and "freedom" guys, I thought your salaries were far higher.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465649)

Cost of living etc comes into play.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (4, Insightful)

pijokela (462279) | about 2 years ago | (#40465703)

Germany is the nation with the highest wages in Europe, maybe in the world. You should not be surprised. I would gladly change my finnish pay for $100k a year.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

iserlohn (49556) | about 2 years ago | (#40466041)

UK has the same range in terms of wages in tech - depends on the Euro/Sterling exchange rate.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (2)

chrb (1083577) | about 2 years ago | (#40467115)

Germany is the nation with the highest wages in Europe, maybe in the world.

Actually Switzerland probably has the highest wages in Europe. If you meant European Union, then Luxembourg is probably top.

You should not be surprised. I would gladly change my finnish pay for $100k a year.

Finnish average salary is only about 10% lower than Germany. Perhaps you are being underpaid? You could always relocate to Germany...

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467617)

I quit my development job in Germany to move back to Ireland, more pay less tax.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

Richard Dick Head (803293) | about 2 years ago | (#40465739)

I've looked at moving to Germany...it's not a slam dunk career move. When you factor in exchange rates, cost of living, take home pay AFTER taxes, etc, the US is still the better choice by a large margin compared to any other place . It looks like Canada is #2, Australia #3 as far as IT worker living standard goes. Then there is the culture shock, homesickness, political chaos, social isolation, the German expectation of punctuality. It's the most modernized country in the old world...aka the cool old architecture has been knocked down.

I'd be interested to hear the stories from people who did make it over there, any good ones?

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (-1, Troll)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40465801)

"Then there is the culture shock, homesickness, political chaos, social isolation, the German expectation of punctuality. "
Wait, you talking about Germany or the United States? God help you if your skin is any color than pale white and move to the USA. You want social isolation, be a color other than white.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465871)

I'm not white, live in US and have no problems.

I feel far from isolated.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (4, Interesting)

rezalas (1227518) | about 2 years ago | (#40466565)

The tone you're setting is wrong, because it implies that all white people are racist and somehow dedicate every waking moment to ruining and isolating non-white people. In reality most of the wide array of cultures and ethnic groups in America tend to bulk together out of comfort and stability by choice, not because they are rounded up and placed in isolation camps. People want to spend time typically with other people that are like them which includes taste in art, skill set, and (tada) ethnic origin. You see this all over the world and it establishes unique and interesting subcultures.

On the note of racism though which is always applied to white people oddly, I'd like to point out that non-whites are equally racist and (unlike white people) are often more willing to admit it because there is no focus on shaming them for it. One example is the shooting in Florida where the man is half hispanic and half white. The man claims himself to be hispanic as his primary race, but the minute people started saying he was racist they started calling him white or "half white". They completely stripped him of his willfully claimed ethnicity, mostly because saying a white man hates black people will sell better than a hispanic hates black people.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (2)

Alomex (148003) | about 2 years ago | (#40466867)

People want to spend time typically with other people that are like them which includes taste in art, skill set, and (tada) ethnic origin.

Ethnic, maybe, racial no, not really. You don't see tall people hanging together and short people hanging in a different group; or blue eyed people hanging together and green-eyed people in a different group.

The only reason people in the USA tend to hang out with others of the same racial ethnicity is leftovers of the horrible segregation that ruled the land a mere 40 years ago.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

rezalas (1227518) | about 2 years ago | (#40467043)

Really, because the people I see clustering together based on race (by choice) weren't even alive 40 years ago, and the city I live in isn't segregated that way.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (2)

Alomex (148003) | about 2 years ago | (#40467195)

Yes, really. Cultural constructs are passed from generation to generation, the same way you speak English even though you were not even alive when the English settled in Virgina in 1607.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

operagost (62405) | about 2 years ago | (#40467525)

Chinese, Korean, Hispanic, Persian, Arab, etc. people weren't segregated, yet recent and new immigrants tend to live together in neighborhoods.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

Alomex (148003) | about 2 years ago | (#40467729)

Correct, which is why I started by saying "[culturally] ethnic, maybe". For example, people who like kimchi and the latest South Korean soap opera are likely to hang together and talk about it, be it physically or in a blog in cyberspace. And no, you don't have to be born in Korea to count yourself among that group, as many Japanese fans of Bae Yong Joon and kimchi can attest.

On the other hand we have racially imposed divisions and classifications, such as the American coinage of Latina, which creates a new racial category (Hispanic, female) so we can pigeonhole yet another group. What is more ironic is that the supposedly enlightened intellectual liberal left were the main drivers behind this new racial label.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1, Troll)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40466947)

Please take some time and travel the south. Racisim is alive and well. There is segregation enforced by fear in some states in the south.

Places like NYC and Chicago are very different.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

operagost (62405) | about 2 years ago | (#40467537)

OK, Captain Anectdotal Evidence, I've been to TN, NC, SC, VA, WV, and TX, and I saw no segregation. That leaves out several states, but then you can't exactly say "the south" and leave out the ones I listed.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467751)

and you are an expert on those states because of what you observed out the bus window...

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

tompaulco (629533) | about 2 years ago | (#40468063)

and you are an expert on those states because of what you observed out the bus window...
Well, I live here in the south, and I can vouch for the fact that racism is alive and well. If a black man kills an unarmed white man after robbing him and forcing his girlfriend to strip in the middle of a city street, he gets 20 years in prison. If a white man kills a black man that attempted to rob him at gunpoint, then he gets life in prison.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#40465985)

"the cool old architecture has been knocked down" That sure is an interesting way to describe fire bombing, but yes, the Yanks and Poms knocked down most of the old German architecture.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (2)

will_die (586523) | about 2 years ago | (#40466089)

As an American living and working in Germany for over a decade you really need to watch how you are getting over here.
Cost is alot more than living in the USA, and normal german pay can be lower. Then you are stuck with taxes, as a USA citizen you have to file for taxes no matter where you earned them, and Germany now wants a cut. However tax deals between the countries can help you alot in that matter and some companies pay the USA taxes that you would owe.
You will want to travel, after all that is why you are coming to Europe, so factor in the costs of that. Also expect a smaller house, car and most other things.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (3, Insightful)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#40468739)

The tradeoff is that you have better insurance. Lose your job? Still have healthcare. Vacation? Guaranteed more than you'll ever get in the US, and if you don't take it your boss will make you. In the US if you take all your vacation you can be looking at finding a new job with a lot of employers.

If you're relatively low skill (waiter waitress type job) you can get paid a lot more in europe than the US. The downside is that paying for restaurants can be a lot more expensive than the US.

On average the US is better off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_per_capita_personal_income) in terms of disposable income. But a lot of that wealth is concentrated towards people who are doing well. If you can be in the top 1% it's better to be an american than a german. if you're in the bottom 20 or 30%, german rather than american. Everyone in between those points is more of a lifestyle choice. Some people would prefer 5 weeks vacation and are happy taking trains to travel, some people prefer the freedom of their own car and working more.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about 2 years ago | (#40466093)

mr dickhead,

I suggest you visit germany. they're probably the least fucked up nation in the world. plenty of cool old stuff too, even in the places that got totaled in ww2.
and beer & etc is cheap as.. well, water.

as for political chaos, wtf? comparing usa vs. germany in political chaos? who's leader is going around ordering assassinations again? germany is so stable they've managed to keep europes mexicos out of trouble for past 30 years!

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466145)

The cost of living in Munich is definitely lower than in San Francisco or San Jose, since we're talking about IT jobs. I don't know what you mean with "social isolation".

Of course taxes are higher, and I'm proud of that. If I lose my job, I don't lose healthcare for my family, and I'll have a decent unemployment benefit. If I cannot afford a private pension, I still have a generous and sustainable public pension, and my kids will be able to go to college FOR FREE, as I did. In big companies workers can elect half of the Board of Directors, so that the company is managed in the interest of BOTH shareholders AND employees. And companies cannot lay off people without a just cause.

My parents are former factory workers (you know, those that are kindly called "losers" in your country), if I was born in the USA I could have never afforded to pay for college, and I would be a factory worker too.

If that's what you call "new world", well, keep it.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40467535)

I don't know where you get the "losers" thing from and as far as paying for college it is true that it isn't free but honestly for people without rich parents to pay it is still very feasible to attend college and get a good education without going into debt for the rest of your life.

My parents are farmers and looking back at it I think many years we would have been below the poverty line. I went to college and only took one loan for US$1000 my final semester my senior year to use to get an appartment(first/last month rent). I did my research and applied for every little couple hundred dollar scholarship I could find, I live at home during college to save room and board, and I worked weekends and every summer. Honestly, I think I worked harder in school because I was paying for it, at least compared to some of my peers. There were a few times where working made studying hard, but mostly I was working when others were partying.

My wife's parents are a factory worker and a sales clerk. She went to the same college, didn't work during the school year and didn't live at home, it took her about 5 years to repay her loans. The people who are repaying school loans for 20 years, 1) went to one of the overpriced schools, 2) made some really bad financial decisions, 3) picked a major that had no serious income potential

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40468457)

And if you're the example of the typical German, well, keep it.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

ganjadude (952775) | about 2 years ago | (#40467767)

I went to munich back in 2008 and let me tell you there is still pleanty of "old" history there,along with the new. While there we went to the BMW museum (which opened the weekend I was there, got to see the new 7 series at the time photoshoot take place) the olympic park from the 70s. We went to the augistiner brewery beer garden where oktoberfest is held. http://www.augustiner-braeu.de/augustiners/html/en/index.html [augustiner-braeu.de] Dachau was a very humbling experience, but very vivid. And the center of munich still has all the old buildings, the Glockenspiel in particular. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH6pwKdw9CI [youtube.com] . Cannot forget all the different beer gardens either.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

cluedweasel (832743) | about 2 years ago | (#40468013)

I think you'll find the lack of "cool old architecture" is down to the actions of the Allies in WW2, unless you consider "knocked down" being an end result of having a 10,000 lb bomb dropped on it from a great height.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465787)

And you dont have rabid idiots that rally against Universal health care and whine about poor people getting things like healthcare, food and water.

Here in the USA, we have a lot of idiots.

No offense (0, Troll)

Shivetya (243324) | about 2 years ago | (#40465991)

but your paying for both, you just choose to be ignorant of the costs. Its embedded in everything you buy and it leaves your check without your full acknowledgement of it.

Sorry, but the sanctimonious crap from some Europeans is laughable, that house of cards is collapsing because the free ride costs money and apparently too many people are on the cart instead of pulling it.

FWIW.

I pay a small portion of my pay for health insurance, I work for a self insured company; which is what many large US corporations do. I also have a 401k, a pension, and Social Security. So I have what you have, there is just more honestly on admitting that the costs are there. As in, there is less obfuscation in my take home pay.

Re:No offense (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466407)

I'm not "ignorant of the cost", the difference is that costs are SHARED among everybody. That's what the welfare system is for. What about the healthcare for the unemployed in the US? Do they stand in line like beggars in front of some charity organization?

And look at the yield of German Bunds, it's lower than the yield of US Treasuries. So what's the house of cards that's collapsing?

Re:No offense (1)

tompaulco (629533) | about 2 years ago | (#40468135)

What about the healthcare for the unemployed in the US? Do they stand in line like beggars in front of some charity organization?
No, they go to the hospital, just as they have done since long before the whole Universal Healthcare proposition.

Re:No offense (2)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#40468831)

And then any assets they do have are taken as they are forced into bankruptcy, and then the government is left footing the bill. Because the government is insuring these visits there is a layer of socialized medicine happening, except that the hospitals and governments then fight over how much money should be paid and so on.

The thing is, if you're poor in the US, or old, you get medicare or medicaid which are both, on the scale of things decent enough. It's the people who are not quite poor and not quite old, or not fully employed or that have to rely on an insurance company actually paying that are screwed. It's a weird system.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (2)

bastafidli (820263) | about 2 years ago | (#40466325)

How about you factor taxes in and then we talk :-) How much taxes do you pey on 100+/year after all deduction? Now take a look at effective/actual tax rate in US in this category.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#40468941)

Tax revenue as a percent of GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Germany 40%, US 27.

Government spending as a percent of GDP (includes previous chart sort of)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending

Germany 43. US 39.

Tax rates in the current economic climate don't mean much. To balance all the US governments (and sub entities) books you'd need to collect revenue at the same rate as the germans, which would increase taxes by 44%. The Germans to cover all spending would need to increase their taxes by 7.5%. And in the end your total government spendings would differ by 10%.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (4, Funny)

FlopEJoe (784551) | about 2 years ago | (#40466527)

And we don't have to pay for a private health insurance or a decent pension.

It's magically free... nobody pays for it! Whee!

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

operagost (62405) | about 2 years ago | (#40467465)

Assuming you properly converted the $US into euros, I have to point out that most of the salaries listed would be taxed at over 40%, not to mention your VAT of around 15% on most things, correct? Europeans like to point out that our income tax tops out at a mere 35.5%, as if that is a bad thing. But if your point is that our increasingly fascist government is wasteful, then I agree. We should be able to provide the crappy services we have with about half the income tax.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

dcw3 (649211) | about 2 years ago | (#40468585)

I just want to add that that tax maximum leaves out all the other taxes that we pay. State, local, Social Security, Medicare, property (varies by location), and a uncountable other taxes and "fees". So, the comparisons are often not apples to apples, not to mention uneven due to cost of living differences.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

tomhath (637240) | about 2 years ago | (#40467797)

These numbers are only "Base Salary", they don't include additional compensation such as Health Insurance or Pension benefits which generally add quite a bit to an employee's total compensation.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (1)

tompaulco (629533) | about 2 years ago | (#40468195)

These numbers are only "Base Salary", they don't include additional compensation such as Health Insurance or Pension benefits which generally add quite a bit to an employee's total compensation.
I have worked for 7 companies in my life, zero of which have paid Pension benefits. Some of them have paid matching 401k, but that pales in comparison with an actual pension offering.
Health Insurance is always a nice "offering" that the companies say is a benefit, but when you look at the truth of it, you are the one who pays for the benefit, and the only advantage is that you might get to pay it out of pretax dollars. My company pays for my individual health insurance, which is almost unheard of anymore. To insure my family would cost about $900 a month. Since I can't afford that, I went and got private insurance, which is costing me less than $300 a month.

Re:Is that the so called "american dream"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40468367)

Most everyone in these classifications is getting employer sponsored health benefits, so we're not paying for private health care either. We also pay lower taxes, so our take home is higher than yours. And I can confirm that certain areas of the country with a cost of living close to that in Europe also have significantly higher salaries.

I disagree with 'ageism' (5, Insightful)

Muad'Dave (255648) | about 2 years ago | (#40465679)

I disagree with the author's take on 'ageism' - I bet that if skill sets were taken into account, the apparent ageism would disappear.

There are two kinds of 'old fart' in this biz - ones that doggedly refuse to learn new skills, and those that actively seek out and embrace new skills but have the hindsight and experience to see them in their proper place among the existing tried-and-true solutions. Too often I see young, inexperienced developers grab on to the latest thing, declaring it the be-all and end-all of programming. I've seen it a million times - their fervor eventually gets tempered by seeing that their shiny new toy isn't perfect and has more rough edges that advertised. I went thru it in my 20's, as did everyone else, I suspect. I'm old enough now to have seen the "Thin Client! No, Thick client! No, Thin Client!" pendulum swing a few times. :-( (For those of you too young, that would be "thin=Mainframe+terminal, thick=Borland Delphi, thin=web app, thick=phone app).

The consulting company I work for respects the type II old fart and values their experience. Apparently our clients do as well, since we're in high demand.

Fellow old fart here. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465873)

Speaking as a fellow old fart, I remember being in a constant state of panic when ever a new technology came out because it meant that if I didn't somehow get on the job experience with the technology, I would be left in the dust (unemployed). And back in the 90s, if you didn't learn something new and switch jobs, you were considered unwilling to learn new things and grow - now you're considered a "job hopper".

And back in the early 90s, employers wanted the "shiny new toys" because they thought they could throw out the very expensive mainframes and go all client server - and many did.

Anyway, you have to chase all the new tech. It is a must in this industry. I wish I did it more!

Here's an example: when the whole iOS/iPhone thing was first kicked off by Apple, I poo-pooed it. "Here we go again. Another handheld failure!" The folks who latched on at the beginning - jumping on that shiny new toy - go their first and built up the experience and some of very profitable businesses now.

This time, my experience led me astray and I missed out on getting a big slice of the pie - there are just crumbs left.

Then again, I bet there are some RIM developers that are shaking their heads now and thinking, "Wait and see."

This industry is so volatile and capricious that it's impossible to know what's going to be worth while and what isn't. I mean back in the 90s, I used to laugh at the Mac developers for chasing Windmills. I used to laugh at mainframer COBOL guys but there's quite a few still making a living - a nice one at that.

I thought I was hot shit for being a UNix/client server/C/C++ programmer - then Java came.

Re:Fellow old fart here. (2)

rock_climbing_guy (630276) | about 2 years ago | (#40466975)

I turn 29 tomorrow. It seems that the one thing that has been relatively constant is the movement toward programming at higher and higher levels of abstraction.

Re:Fellow old fart here. (3, Insightful)

Skreems (598317) | about 2 years ago | (#40467543)

Yes and no... in certain areas of the industry, absolutely. But when you start getting into fairly high-performance or large-scale systems, a lot of the abstractions start breaking down. When that happens, you need people who know what's going on under the hood as well.

Re:Fellow old fart here. (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#40469051)

This industry is so volatile and capricious that it's impossible to know what's going to be worth while and what isn't

True. But there are some crazy old guys who don't believe in using the interent, and that building your website to support mobile is a waste.

You can viably be and older person in management or a technical area and do fine. What you can't do is decide that all this 'innovation' is really bad for the industry and bury your head in the sand. Being wrong about the next big thing is different than believing that there should be no next big thing. Being in academia we have a lot of the guys who believe in using pine mail, solaris 8, opposing the existence of the internet and so on, because to them progress is the enemy of their understanding. That's a bad place to be intellectually.

Re:I disagree with 'ageism' (3, Insightful)

kh31d4r (2591021) | about 2 years ago | (#40465943)

I'm old enough now to have seen the "Thin Client! No, Thick client! No, Thin Client!" pendulum swing a few times. :-( (For those of you too young, that would be "thin=Mainframe+terminal, thick=Borland Delphi, thin=web app, thick=phone app).

and now cloud.

Re:I disagree with 'ageism' (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466635)

And now, thin = cloud. :)

Wealth Divide (1)

Metabolife (961249) | about 2 years ago | (#40465759)

So staff jobs have been losing pay while managers have been gaining. Why can't we stop this trend? It's not as if managers have increased in performance over 2 years while staff workers have decreased.

Re:Wealth Divide (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465887)

The managers have indeed increased performance over two years, specifically in the area of keeping staff job pay down and in some cases lowering it.

Re:Wealth Divide (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40465975)

Highly paid software engineers are greedy 1%ers! They should cap their salary at 50k.

That said DDJ is total shit, its been totally steam rolled into oblivion. It was once a great scientific adult magazine, now its total crap.

Re:Wealth Divide (2)

tomhath (637240) | about 2 years ago | (#40466457)

FTFA (page 4): "This chart also shows that the average wage differential between staff and managers in software development remains constant at approximately 27%. "

Did you read the article? Or just post your prejudiced opinion without bothering to look at the data?

Re:Wealth Divide (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466557)

Love the smarmy response typical arrogant slash jerk. Do you read comments on this site how everyone seems to throw in their asinine political view? It was sarcasm, jerk off, see it hits home this stupid 1%er crap when its something people on this site care about, but managers and the rich well we they make too much except for whet most people do on here, jerk off. This site has become total crap just like DDJ. Its all political all the time.

Re:Wealth Divide (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40468059)

Unfortunately it's become almost impossible to distinguish between sarcasm, biased view, and trolling around here. Your reasoned and eloquent response could be any of the three.

Re:Wealth Divide (1)

operagost (62405) | about 2 years ago | (#40467653)

He's using the "mainstream media" math that allows them to claim that the "income gap" is widening. Due to constant inflation, the entire salary scale is rising (although there will always be unemployed or grossly underemployed people who will earn nothing or next to nothing in a year). If the "poor guy" earns $25K and the "rich guy" earns $100K, the gap is $75K. When incomes go up by 10%, now it's $27.5K and $110K. The media will report that the gap has widened to $82.5K, over 9%. This is only one of their tricks, others being using the median income and comparing it to the government-selected "poverty level" to prove that the poor are being "left behind", when it's a growing economy (and inflation, again) that's creating more "rich" people.

Re:Wealth Divide (1)

tomhath (637240) | about 2 years ago | (#40467889)

The numbers still don't show that; the gap is actually closing according to this survey:

Staff Salary / Manager Salary = staffs' salary as percentage of managers'

2010: 93/123 = 75.6%

2011: 96/126 = 76%

2012: 100/128 = 78%

Re:Wealth Divide (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40468375)

There may be a point in the middle of all those scare quotes ... I think you're claiming that the US income gap isn't really growing. That's BS, of course.

Try this report, the first one I came across:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_great_divergence/features/2010/the_united_states_of_inequality/introducing_the_great_divergence.html [slate.com]

The stat used there: a greater percentage of total income is going to the top 1%. It's significant.

Re:Wealth Divide (1)

tompaulco (629533) | about 2 years ago | (#40468279)

So staff jobs have been losing pay while managers have been gaining. Why can't we stop this trend? It's not as if managers have increased in performance over 2 years while staff workers have decreased.
This is because of the arbitrary lines that HR draws on how much a position can pay. They base it on surveys such as this one. Then if some hotshot developer wants more money, HR says no, and if the bossman wants to give him a raise, he has to change the developers title to manager. Number of reports? Zero. So what does this do? The average developer salary goes down because hotshot developer is no longer a developer in title. And the average manager salary goes down because hotshot developer just entered into the management title at the bottom end of the spectrum. Next year, HR is all excited because developers and managers average salary is a little lower, so they can lower the bar some more. Before long, we have Directors and VPs writing code and making $60k a year.

Yep. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466169)

Still quite underpaid, still desperately hoping working for my current startup will pay off eventually, even though they haven't shown the least likelihood of extending any equity or options my way whatsoever (and I'm employee #5). I often wonder if I'm a fool for staying, but I just bought a house and I don't want to be seen as a job hopper the next time I go for interviews, so I'm sticking it out for at least two years. Is this a good plan?

Re:Yep. (1)

tompaulco (629533) | about 2 years ago | (#40468343)

Still quite underpaid, still desperately hoping working for my current startup will pay off eventually, even though they haven't shown the least likelihood of extending any equity or options my way whatsoever (and I'm employee #5). I often wonder if I'm a fool for staying, but I just bought a house and I don't want to be seen as a job hopper the next time I go for interviews, so I'm sticking it out for at least two years. Is this a good plan?
I was probably employee #5 or 6 at one point, but now that a few people have left, I am probably #2 or #3. Maybe I can see your desk from mine. If you're reading this, wave your hand up in the air.
In fact, since this company just purchased a project that was originally started two companies back, I am in fact, the longest tenured person still on this project, by a factor of about 2.

Misses the rocket scientists. (2)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about 2 years ago | (#40466307)

Despite having so many categories, "Software Engineers" and "Software Developers" seem to be the bucket that catches all the people making a living creating software, but belong the category of "software skills are necessary but sufficient". In almost all branches of science, the "numerical simulation" has become very very important. We are graduating some 100,000 Masters in engineering and may be 25000 Ph Ds in engineering and a majority of them write code. Some very well, some very poorly but their programming skills is secondary to their knowledge of physics, chemistry and math. They all are likely to be paid way above this reported mean and clubbing them with "software kills alone are enough" group distorts the data.

Que? (1)

kjs3 (601225) | about 2 years ago | (#40466373)

Dr. Dobbs still exists?

Color me confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40466855)

What's the difference between a Software Developer and a Software Engineer?

Re:Color me confused (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40468223)

Expected responsibility and planning. Software developers add minor new features and fix bugs. Software engineers are a step closer to software architects. Of course, in some contexts they're synonyms.

The useful data is at the bottom of each page (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#40467565)

The useful information lies in the summary at the bottom of each page.

"Software engineers, however, saw an almost 3% increase â" slightly higher than inflation." "project leaders, and analysts all enjoyed raises that outpaced inflation" "the southern states and the mountain time zone saw the biggest percentage increases in salary" "Additional bonuses were inversely proportional to the size of the group"

In other words, MOST positions are NOT keeping up with inflation, and bonuses are given out to only a few people (no way to track who deserves them.) But we knew that already, because the CEOs get most of the bonus money.

Salary survey reveals: We're still fucked

Re:The useful data is at the bottom of each page (0)

Joey Vegetables (686525) | about 2 years ago | (#40468305)

In a world where around 30% of people live on less than $2 a day, being able to earn something like 100x that amount of money says to me something very different than "we're f*cked."

Re:The useful data is at the bottom of each page (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#40468671)

In a world where around 30% of people live on less than $2 a day, being able to earn something like 100x that amount of money says to me something very different than "we're f*cked."

In a country in which it's illegal to be broke, and in which the economic situation is clearly getting worse year by year, you're not seeing the picture. You are aware that there's people starving right here in the good old US of A?

Nice Reading, Thanks (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 2 years ago | (#40468129)

Sometimes reading fiction can make ones day go a little smoother.
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