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Pirate Bay Founder Fined For 'Continued Involvement'

Unknown Lamer posted more than 2 years ago | from the take-that-evildoer dept.

The Almighty Buck 237

tekgoblin writes with an excerpt from TekGoblin: "The founders of The Pirate Bay have been hit with a bunch of punishments and other measures to prevent them from continuing. However Fredrik Neij was just fined by the Stockholm District court another 500,000 Swedish kronor ($70,690 US). Fredrik Neij and Gorrfrid Scatholm both had been banned from operating the site but Neij had been recently found still involved with the site. Neij already owes around 10.6 million."

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if you already owe 10mil (4, Insightful)

james_van (2241758) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468623)

what's another 70k?

Re:if you already owe 10mil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468677)

You're mixing units.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468821)

Summary should have specified instead of just saying "Neij already owes around 10.6 million" after referencing Swedish kronor and US dollars. Everybody knows nobody will ever RTFA anyway.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (5, Interesting)

KingSkippus (799657) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468835)

True, it's "only" around $1.5 million that he owes right now. Still, it's a valid point, and the problem with levying such exorbitant fines. If I were fined $1.5 million for something, at that point, no amount of additional fines would ever make a difference in my activities. Whether it's $1.5 million or $1.5 billion, I know I'm never going to pay it off, so what difference does it make? If I were fined $1.5 million for something, I would pretty much take it as free license to do whatever I want from that point forward with no concern whatsoever for monetary penalties.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (5, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468973)

Yeah, might as well quit working at that point. They will garnish your wages anyway, so welfare or living with family is a better choice.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (4, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469209)

Yea, at that point if i wasn't a "real" criminal, I'd soon become one.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469693)

1.5 million you could pay back if you had a decent enough job. 100k a year minus 50k for 30 years. And you'd still collect pension benefits as though you had 100k.

That's manageable for a normal person. 1.5 billion... not so much.

Also, living with family is risky, because any assets you get in inheritance will still be claimed, and any needs you have as you get older will not be covered if your siblings/relatives can't, and you won't have any pension except government security.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469297)

After having entertained this sort of scenario, I've come to 2 realistic options. The 3rd is a bit extreme...

Option 1) Yyou live life like you normally would. Having a job, paying some 'amount', still living life as though nothing had happened. The question here is that 'amount'. If it was exorbitant, with every spare penny going to the fine, no money for extras/vacations/retirement/FUN .... then option 2 enters this equation.

Option 2) You become homeless, living on the streets and off of other peoples good charity. Or, fall off the grid and live off the land hunting and foraging for food (possibly gardening to some degree), while avoiding law enforcement and any scenarios which might get you arrested (not sure if a commune would accept you, or how that works exactly....?!?)

Extreme Option 3) You leave the country, legally if possible, or illegally and never return. I'm not sure of how extradition back to the US works, if the crime is 'not paying your fines', but a non-extradition country, as well as no bounty-hunting country, would be optimal.

ALL of this, of course, depends on that fine amount. If it was up to say, 2 Million, something that could realistically be paid off, I'd opt for Option 2 or 3 (3 depending on what the fine was for; copyright infringement, patent infringement, or something equivalenty ludicrous). If it was outlandishly high, say 5 Million or more, I'd stay and work a low low paying job, enough to get medical benefits, pay rent and eat. Everything else in life would be on the good graces of others, for which I would trade in skill for. Have me over, or buy me dinner, I'll fix your PC problem, mow the lawn, etc....

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1)

james_van (2241758) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468993)

my bad

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1)

Eponymous Hero (2090636) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469663)

wrong. if you'd followed the link you'd know the 10.6 million is in dollars, not kronor.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468727)

The music industry ownes Swedish courts. The 500,000 SEK damages (and the 10 million SEK damages prior) can be compared to the damages typically awarded to rape victums: 100,000 SEK. What the music industry is doing to Swedish courts is anal rape.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468787)

Thanks, i just shat myself. Or "sharted" as the fat bloke in that movie said.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (5, Funny)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469003)

Exactly, its a slap on the wrist. Especially considering the 10s of billions of dollars he costs the entertainment industry daily. The pirate bay has taken to promoting indie (non-industry-approved) artists, further cutting into socially guaranteed profits. Someone needs to be held responsible for this costly outrage!

Re:if you already owe 10mil (1)

geoskd (321194) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469121)

Exactly, its a slap on the wrist. Especially considering the 10s of billions of dollars he costs the entertainment industry daily. The pirate bay has taken to promoting indie (non-industry-approved) artists, further cutting into socially guaranteed profits. Someone needs to be held responsible for this costly outrage!

Sarcasm may seem funny, but under the circumstances, it is counter productive, as it gives the (socially deficient and sarcasm impaired) politicians the impression that some part of the population agrees with the content usurpers, and thus they should side with the plaintiffs.

-=Geoskd

Re:if you already owe 10mil (2)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469153)

Very many people agree that the Pirate Bay is an organized copyright thief. That's a simple fact.

Now, that's not true on Slashdot, but Slashdot is not a fair representation of the general population.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (4, Insightful)

Ironhandx (1762146) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469289)

If you mean many people, absolute numbers wise, you would be correct.

If you mean many people, percentage wise, you couldn't be more wrong. Less than 25% of the public view downloading music as illegal, and to be fair NONE should. The recording industry is entirely fabricated. Artists get next to nothing out of it and have to tour to make money.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (3, Insightful)

mooingyak (720677) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469475)

If you mean many people, absolute numbers wise, you would be correct.

If you mean many people, percentage wise, you couldn't be more wrong. Less than 25% of the public view downloading music as illegal, and to be fair NONE should. The recording industry is entirely fabricated. Artists get next to nothing out of it and have to tour to make money.

If you feel like the penalties for infringement are too steep, I could back you up.
If you feel like the tactics the RIAA and others have used to pursue infringers are deplorable, I could back you up.
If you feel like the actual revenue loss due to piracy is grossly overstated, I could back you up.

But the feeling of entitlement, that you should be able to grab whatever is produced at no cost to yourself, regardless of what justification you use.... that one I can't go with you on.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (4, Insightful)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469503)

But the feeling of entitlement, that you should be able to grab whatever is produced at no cost to yourself, regardless of what justification you use.... that one I can't go with you on.

But the feeling of entitlement, that some believe copyright law should exist...

Yeah, you can create feelings of "entitlement" anywhere and out of just about any situation. Invoking that word means absolutely nothing.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (0)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469497)

If you mean many people, absolute numbers wise, you would be correct.

If you mean many people, percentage wise, you couldn't be more wrong. Less than 25% of the public view downloading music as illegal, and to be fair NONE should. The recording industry is entirely fabricated. Artists get next to nothing out of it and have to tour to make money.

the way popularity works, is that most artists could never get enough money from records to live on - if they did there would be more recording artists and that would destroy being so profitable for everyone. so touring is the way to go for those who can bring in the crowds - and because the crowds aren't endless there's a limit to how many artists that can support too and right now there's as many artists touring as there are venues and people to pay for the shows. if another must see act hits the scene then that is audience "stolen" from other artists - it's not like people would have more money and more time to visit the shows to infinity.

now, if you had to have an artist license to record music then it could be true that all of them could get paid enough to live with - but regulating recording is more fucked up than the catholic church in 1400's.

if you want to live with music, by numbers, you pretty much have to go into teaching piano, guitar etc.

the current state is a glamorous lie invented quite recently by the content industry - how many rock stars can we really have and still call them stars??

Re:if you already owe 10mil (2)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469431)

Very many people agree that the Pirate Bay is an organized copyright thief. That's a simple fact.

Really? I don't know whether or not that's true, but is that simply something you hope is true, or do you have some sort of evidence to back up that statement?

Re:if you already owe 10mil (4, Insightful)

geoskd (321194) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469783)

Very many people agree that the Pirate Bay is an organized copyright thief. That's a simple fact.

Now, that's not true on Slashdot, but Slashdot is not a fair representation of the general population.

I know I will get lots of hate mail for this, but only people who fail to understand the epic fail that is copyright, and all of the issues surrounding it, think that copyright is a good idea. Copyright is bad for society. It hurts our economy. It hurts our standard of living, and unjustly puts large amounts of money into the pockets of middlemen who are barely more than thieves themselves. Perhaps I need to run for congress myself to get at least one voice of reason into the discussion because for some reason, those in office go a long way to listen only to those very same middlemen who are making their society worse any time they can make a buck doing it.

Artists don't need monetary incentive to create great works, they need food and shelter and the tools of the trade. The rest they do themselves. Shakespeare didn't create his great works because he was trying to become rich and famous, he did it because he loved his work. Van Gogh was a lunatic. History is littered with very talented artists who never made much money, But created vast cultural wealth for society, for no other reason than "They could". Many of today's modern music artists create compelling works, but they would have done it anyway, with or without the fortune. Most artists have a job that pays their bills and they create art on the side as a hobby. There is a vast and varied pool of independent artists, some of whom are as talented as today's top artists. The only reason you don't know who they are is because those very same middlemen spend most of the artists money to advertise the few works they choose, and ignore the rest. That advertising is designed to put your focus on the advertised works, and take the focos away from the independent works. They do this, not because its good for the artist (It ensures most artists never see a dime from album sales). They do it to maximize their own revenues (Which are largely driven by income on their advertising subsidiaries).

-=Geoskd

Re:if you already owe 10mil (2)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469545)

I know it's fun to get stuff for free (I do it myself), but authors still deserve to be paid. Some of ye appear to say they do not (which is why you oppose copyright). I guess ye have no objections if I lay you off, and send the job to poor people in China/India. After all it is for the "good of society" that jobs go to those who need them the most. Those citizens need the jobs more than us rich Americans.

Like the authors, you can go earn your money some other way. (Enjoy!) BTW I notice almost none of ye suggested an alternate method for authors to get paid for their books, songs, movies. MY proposal is that we treat them the same way we do other creative types: Programmers, engineers. Give the authors an hourly wage upfront.

Re:if you already owe 10mil (2, Interesting)

nomadic (141991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469671)

"I know it's fun to get stuff for free (I do it myself), but authors still deserve to be paid. Some of ye appear to say they do not (which is why you oppose copyright)." So you don't accept the clearly logical slashdot argument that because artists make too little money from selling what they make, that we should take steps to insure that "too little" amount plummets to zero?

Re:if you already owe 10mil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469523)

This kind of *piracy* costs the industries absolutely zilch, nada, zippo - in fact, it fairly well helps them to make money - people who download a copy of a movie, if they like it (and are the types who would purchase movies to begin with) will shell out a few bucks to buy it used or in a bargain bin somewhere - either way, they make a few pennies or bucks on the sale.

The folks who normally use these kinds of sites either weren't going to purchase the product to begin with, or can't get it legally (yet) in their area. Some of the later will purchase it after it is released.

Next thing you know, they'll be after closing down the used dvd/cd market (just like the gaming industry).

True piracy - or bootlegging as it's called in the states is where they do loose out - if someone is willing to shell out a few bucks for a badly copied dvd, they are certainly willing to pay 5 to 10 bucks for a good one.

So let's get the industry working on the true problem, not this make believe one.

Chances of them ever collecting: 0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468629)

It's just pro forma so it looks like they're doing something "about that darn Pirate Bay" so the USTR doesn't try to blackmail them. Again.

Visa, mastercard, blood or cheque. (1)

DeTech (2589785) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468635)

Hopefully they accept bitcoin.

Re:Visa, mastercard, blood or cheque. (1)

morgauxo (974071) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469435)

No, but if the pb founders could manage to live off of bitcoin...

Gorrfrid Scatholm? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468647)

Shouldn't it be Gottfrid Svartholm?

Wrong name (4, Informative)

pipatron (966506) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468665)

It's Gottfrid Svartholm, ffs.

Re:Wrong name (1)

freeze128 (544774) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469413)

I thought it was Slarti Bardfast.

The other guys name... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468673)

... is Gottfrid Svartholm Varg, nothing else...

They deserve it. (-1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468697)

It's one thing to download a song or movie, say "That was crap", and erase it. It's another thing to actively copy millions of them, or assist others to do it, and distribute those copies to other people.

Only the original author(s) have the right to copy their creation. Maybe that law is unjust and needs to be changed (like downsizing the 110 year span to 20 years), but for now that is the law and these guys are clearly violating it.

Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (2)

Nicolas MONNET (4727) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468715)

the first million times. Do you have anything new to contribute?

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1, Troll)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469011)

This is the first time I've posted it. Usually I'm on the side of NOT sending people $5000 extortion letters, or fining Jamie Thomas 10 million dollars.

BUT these guys are different. They are the modern equivalent of VHS or DVD copiers and profiting from the action. They deserve to be fined, just as a speeder going over 65 mph deserved to get a ticket. If you don't like it then change the law.

YOU on the other hand seem to think Authors deserve NO PAY for the work they perform (that all their books, movies should be free for us). That makes no logical sense. It's equivalent to a boss that makes you work all week, fires you, and then doesn't pay you any wages.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (5, Insightful)

tnk1 (899206) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469227)

People who obstruct traffic in the left hand lane or drive too slowly also deserve tickets, if your reasoning holds up. Good luck with that happening.

What is legally correct is not necessarily morally or even ethically sound. And you can always make laws, they don't mean they will achieve what they aim to achieve. For instance, the patent system these days.

We all state that authors and such deserve an income. I agree that I don't want to keep them from making an income for something I want to see.

However, people also make choices about what they do that also involves their interest and enjoyment. I enjoy playing video games, but its unlikely that anyone is going to pay me to play them, even if it is entertaining to watch (just ask South Korea). I don't deserve to get paid for what I want to do, people get paid for what they provide that others need. I want to try my hand at pro gaming, I have that option. I also have the option to make no money and starve.

If music and movies are needed and enjoyable, they will be paid for somehow. I am not worried about the end of music or movies or content. As for the music industry? Their job is to provide a service, and it appears that their distribution service is now redundant. If my job became redundant, I'd be laid off without so much as a bit of sadness on the part of the corporation. I don't see why I need to change my habits so that content businesses can continue to be paid when they should be laid off. Call me when I have guaranteed employment in the career of my choice and can make good money at it.

Certainly until music company execs, actors and rock stars stop making millions, I have zero pity for them. Call me when they really are in any danger of anything approaching hardship. As for everyone else, including indie musicians or actors, they are in a business just like I am. If they want to get paid, they need to figure out how to provide it in this shitty world of globalization and outsourcing, just like I have to. If you want to support them, I am 100% for it. Just don't make me pay for it with craptastic legislation.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469577)

you're a tool

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (2)

geoskd (321194) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469345)

YOU on the other hand seem to think Authors deserve NO PAY for the work they perform (that all their books, movies should be free for us). That makes no logical sense. It's equivalent to a boss that makes you work all week, fires you, and then doesn't pay you any wages.

You misunderstand the underlying principles involved. The disagreement has nothing to do with, should the artists get compensated or not, the argument should be framed as what is in societies best interests. Individual interests *must* take a back seat to the good of society. Period. So, re-frame the question as "What is the best alternative for society?" The answer is not what we have now, copyright is an abysmal failure, and ends up harming society far more than having nothing at all. Remember that there was no copyright when Beethoven or Bach did their work. Shakespeare had no protection. Let me ask you, would we all be better off with Shakespeares works locked firmly behind copyright? Would William Shakespeare have been better off? What is needed is a solution that makes *society* better. To do that we need to do two things. First, we need to ensure as wide and cheap access to cultural works (aka The Arts) as possible. For that purpose, we have accidentally invented the perfect tool: The Internet. The second thing we need to do is ensure a continuing supply of new cultural works (aka The Arts). For that purpose, we have a miserable failure of a tool called copyright. Copyright was supposed to solve both problems, but today it is a barmier to solving the first, and of almost no help in solving the second. Lets wipe out copyright and find some way to keep the artists creating new works. I would humbly suggest: Vastly expanding the National endowment for the arts. Lets trying getting the funds directly to the artists, get the money grubbing middlemen out of the picture. They're no longer needed for the process to work, and move on. Back in the middle ages, this was done by royalty who supported good artists, and generally made their works as available as possible (after all, good entertainment is dynamite crowd control), Today we have the **AA who are doing everything possible to *prevent* the spread of these works, and starving out most artists in favor of a few "megastars", and those in political power are complicit the process.

-=Geoskd

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469463)

>>>Individual interests *must* take a back seat to the good of society. Period.

So you have no objections if I lay you off, and send the job to China and India. After all they are MUCH poorer than we are, and it is for the "good of society" that jobs go to those who need them the most. China/India citizens clearly need the jobs more than us rich Americans. Like the authors, you can go earn your money some other way. (Enjoy!)

BTW I notice you didn't suggest an alternate method for authors to get paid for their books, songs, movies. MY proposal is that we treat them the same way we do other creative types: Programmers, engineers. Give the authors an hourly wage upfront.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (2)

JimCanuck (2474366) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469605)

Individual interests *must* take a back seat to the good of society. Period.

God damn communist.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469351)

I keep seeing your posts, thinking 'Hmmm... yet another asswipe contrarian troll yearning for any attention at all' and then I see it's *you*.

I want your babies.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1)

Ironhandx (1762146) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469385)

If you're not generating propaganda, you're clearly overly influenced by it.

The pirate bay didn't even make enough money from Ad revenue to pay for a single persons living wage in sweden. It had something like 20,000 kronors on hand after server expenses and that money was ear-marked for hardware upgrades needed just to keep the site running. Up until very shortly before the trial the pirate bay was a LOSS generating activity for those involved.

"If you don't like it change the law" is total bullshit as well.

When you've got multi-billionaires waving money at every government official in the world, who the hell is going to change anything?

Be perfectly honest with yourself too: You or anyone wouldn't do anything much differently than all of the government officials around the world have already been doing.

Most government postings have either time limits or a cycle of elections that mean you having or not having a job is a very fickle or finitely determined thing. You NEED money from lobbyists etc to ensure your financial security after you get out of office. Until this changes, nothing will change.

Whats hilarious is that in general the places with the most progressive and sensible copyright and patent laws are actually the ones with what we often consider the most backwards forms of government.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1)

Ziggitz (2637281) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469659)

There is more than one way to make a profit off of a piece of work. The pirate bay's approach of torrenting all content might not be moral or the correct approach, however Hollywood is still making their money and challenging the legitimacy of and practicality of current copyright law is a worthwhile cause. If it wasn't these guys it would be someone else and at some point governments, content publishers and Internet users are going to have to reconcile that an open and free internet is not compatible with draconian copyright law and the current business model most content publishers employ.

Even if publishers have a valid case against piracy and will actually fail as a result of it, I still choose a free Internet over the publishers. As it stands no data indicates that they do and even if they did it is not our obligation to change the world and restrict technology for the benefit of their outdated business model at the cost of progress.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469425)

To be fair, nobody in this entire thread is going to have anything to say that hasn't been said in the last several dozen posts regarding the pirate bay.

I expect a comment to the effect that all copyright is bad, another about how TPB was just linking, someone to talk about the difference between stealing a car and making a copy to turn up in the next few hours.

Re:Yeah, yeah, we've heard the propaganda (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469473)

And the number of people convinced by the other sides' arguments...?

Re:They deserve it. (2)

DeTech (2589785) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468717)

Just proving a point

it's one thing to download a song or movie, say "That was crap", and erase it. It's another thing to actively copy millions of them, or assist others to do it, and distribute those copies to other people.

Only the original author(s) have the right to copy their creation. Maybe that law is unjust and needs to be changed (like downsizing the 110 year span to 20 years), but for now that is the law and these guys are clearly violating it.

Re:They deserve it. (2)

fluffythedestroyer (2586259) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469109)

They might deserve it but telling it's all of their fault is not true at all. I feel like the industry didn't ask important questions like "why is my product getting pirated ? " and "how can I stop piracy ?". Never in my life I never heard of any of these types of questions from these guys...ever. I don't think I ever will too since those same guys are just penalizing folks with millions of dollars (or Knonor ?). Nope, instead of putting ressource, time and money on the origin and source of the problem, they still continue to release and distribute products with the same "security" or "system" without any improvement. The only system i heard which is a debate in itself is DRM (I won't go in that lol)... but that's it, nothing else.

i can honestly say I pirate games and software to try it first if it's worth the money I spend. Unfortunately, I admit that most games and software I pirate are not worth it....mostly are crap in my opinion. I know it's general but most games are played between 8-20 hours alone, linear and the replay value is almost zero. In my book, that's not worth 60$....hell not even 20$. There was a time where gameplay, replay value and how you play your games with friends was on top of the todo list instead of the deadline. So today, I mostly buy my games on Steam (I wait for the weekend specials at 75% reduction)

So if the industry and company won't make the effort to "fix" this problem, why would I do it ? this is a game thats played bothways....if they want my money... seduce me ffs

Re:They deserve it. (0)

X.25 (255792) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469195)

it's one thing to download a song or movie, say "That was crap", and erase it. It's another thing to actively copy millions of them, or assist others to do it, and distribute those copies to other people.

Only the original author(s) have the right to copy their creation. Maybe that law is unjust and needs to be changed (like downsizing the 110 year span to 20 years), but for now that is the law and these guys are clearly violating it.

I guess the guy who made the bench in the park should get to choose who sits on it, and should get certain amount every time someone sits on the bench.

Re:They deserve it. (2)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469259)

I guess the guy who made the bench in the park should get to choose who sits on it, and should get certain amount every time someone sits on the bench.

You laugh, but if he had a PATENT on the bench, this would pretty much be true....

Re:They deserve it. (2)

DeTech (2589785) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469391)

At least until someone open source hardwared a butt supporting apparatus sufficient for outdoor use.

Re:They deserve it. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469427)

Damm right. As a home builder it greatly offends me that just ANYONE can move into these houses after i build them.

It's criminal that i don't get to keep control forever of my creations.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

Andrewkov (140579) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469531)

You can't do that in a park, but you could build a bench in front of your house and charge people to sit there.

Better yet, you could show downloaded movies and make even more revenue from your bench.

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469641)

any analogy made results in nothing more than making the person making it look stupid, they are for people who cannot think clearly. no analogy actually works as there can be, as most philosophy students could happily show you, subtle differences in everyone that can be exploited.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469705)

"I guess the guy who made the bench in the park should get to choose who sits on it, and should get certain amount every time someone sits on the bench."

If a guy spent a year of his time and money designing a bench to sell to parks, then no, other parks should not just be able to swipe the design.

Re:They deserve it. (5, Insightful)

spikesahead (111032) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468777)

Yeah, blacks, get to the back of the bus. Don't you know you're breaking the law?

Don't give me none of that 'civil disobedience' crap, you're breaking the law!

Re:They deserve it. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468843)

Are you implying piracy issues are comparable to civil rights?

Re:They deserve it. (1)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468889)

Yes, I think he is. Are you implying that they are not?

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469635)

Yes, I think he is. Are you implying that they are not?

...no, I suppose I'm not implying that. Glad that's settled, then. I'm really, REALLY buying into the entire "circuses" part of "bread and circuses", to the point where my sense of well-being is directly tied to it such that the inability to view ALL the movies and TV shows for free at my leisure (or even the slightest delay in same) would prove irreparably damaging to my psyche or something, and that's JUST like discriminating against an entire race due to their skin color, right?

Re:They deserve it. (1)

DM9290 (797337) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468895)

I think that is what he was doing.

Re:They deserve it. (5, Insightful)

DeTech (2589785) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468905)

More likely he's pointing out that sometimes the law is wrong.

Re:They deserve it. (2)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469239)

Are you implying piracy issues are comparable to civil rights?

copyright is a limit of civil rights.

though cultural professional("the establishment") lobbying is trying to prove that copyright is a civil right, quite successfully too. however, copyright needs essentially endless involvement from government(aka "authority") limiting what people are allowed to do.

the fines are ridiculous - he's just going to live on welfare and do untaxed work. what's more ridiculous is that he could have gotten away with less financial penalties for combined manslaughter and a bank robbery.

Re:They deserve it. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468879)

So, you're saying any law is basically negotiable and should be bent to the whim of the people. I suppose since rape is so prevalent in South Africa, it should be considered "civil disobedience" by all the (former) virgins unable to get laid because magazines manipulate the public and promote an unrealistic image of what male characteristics are desirable in a mate.

Re:They deserve it. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469035)

Women have a natural right not to be raped.

Copyright is not a right at all. It's a privilege granted by "the people" to the copyright holder. Do you think "the people" extended copyrights? No, that was lobbyists and our so-called representatives. If people are being abused by a law created by people they feel do not represent them how do you expect them to have any respect for that law at all? Especially when that law isn't protecting anyone's natural rights...

People deserve just compensation for their work. They do not deserve to receive compensation in perpetuity at the expense of sending others to jail or fining them into oblivion.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

dosius (230542) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469143)

"Intellectual property is neither"

-uso.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469163)

>>>Women have a natural right not to be raped. [Wages/salary] are not a right at all. It's a privilege granted by "the people" to the laborer.

Fixed that for you.
Just wanted to clarify where you stand on this issue - that you don't think authors, movie directors, actors don't deserve to be paid for their labor. Because if there's NO copyright, and everything is free to download through Piratebay, then that's exactly what will happen. No money for the book, song, movie creators.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469273)

Wages/Salary are something the person buying the labor pays for. He also gets the results of that labor.

Without copyright an artists would want to sell the labor not the results. Concerts are one example of that.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469331)

>>>Without copyright an artists would want to sell the labor not the results. Concerts are one example of that.

Does this apply to programmers/engineers too? We get paid for doing live "concerts" but do not get paid for the result (program,schematic) we produce?

Re:They deserve it. (2)

gman003 (1693318) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469365)

No. You're putting words in his mouth.

Artists deserve to be paid. They are not being paid under the current system, and they would arguably make *more* under a "copyright doesn't exist, pirate whatever you want" system.

Why?

Artists do *not* get paid properly for recordings. Seriously. Your album can go multi-platinum, and you still will see *maybe* a few cents on each album. Often less - Hollywood accounting means that you'll quite often see *nothing*. At that point, it doesn't matter whether people pay for your albums or not - all you can make money from is licensing (if you managed to retain the rights to your own music), and concerts. And your "publisher" *will* take a cut from both.

So let's suppose, for a minute, that we get rid of all that. Piracy is completely legalized for personal use - you only need to pay for it if you're using it in a movie or broadcasting it on the radio or something.

That turns your recordings into advertisements for your concerts. Which means you *want* them spread as far as they can - you *want* people to pirate your music, because that means more people are likely to shell out $$ for tickets, and t-shirts, and other merchandise.

And how do I know this would work? Because artists are rooting for it.

Not all of them, no, but there are more than I can list, who *already* say "pirate my music, come to my concerts".

How many other industries are there where the producers actually *encourage* their customers to break the law? That alone should be enough of a sign that the law, and the system, are *broken*.

And what do we do with broken systems? We throw them out, destroy them, and build a new one.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469737)

"They are not being paid under the current system, and they would arguably make *more* under a "copyright doesn't exist, pirate whatever you want" system."

And arguably, they'd make far less.

That turns your recordings into advertisements for your concerts. Which means you *want* them spread as far as they can - you *want* people to pirate your music, because that means more people are likely to shell out $$ for tickets, and t-shirts, and other merchandise.

With the premise that only music that can be performed in concert halls AND bring in enough concertgoers is deserving of being made. And what about movies?

Re:They deserve it. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468947)

Yeah, blacks, get to the back of the bus. Don't you know you're breaking the law?

Don't give me none of that 'civil disobedience' crap, you're breaking the law!

Wow.

What's life like when you have absolutely no sense of perspective?

Besides blessing you with the unmitigated ego that allows you to make the utterly asinine comparison of endemic societal mistreatment of human beings to your arrogant sense of entitlement of being allowed to freely download whatever lame form of entertainment you want, do you often walk into furniture?

Or. maybe if we're all lucky, do you find yourself playing in traffic, while chained to a refrigerator?

Re:They deserve it. (1, Troll)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469063)

Fuck the law, there shouldn't be that law, the gov't shouldn't be allowed to pass laws that protect any specific business model, any specific business, any specific individual from other individuals in business.

Gov't is the culprit here, sure, there is a law, but it is an unjust law. Copyright and patent laws are unjust and every time anybody is in jury and there is government on one side and an individual on the other side the jury must nullify the law. Yes, the law is broken, no, it shouldn't exist.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469237)

Fuck the law, there shouldn't be that law, the gov't shouldn't be allowed to pass laws that protect any specific business model, any specific business, any specific individual from other individuals in business.

Gov't is the culprit here, sure, there is a law, but it is an unjust law. Copyright and patent laws are unjust and every time anybody is in jury and there is government on one side and an individual on the other side the jury must nullify the law. Yes, the law is broken, no, it shouldn't exist.

The situation you propose favors the parasites too much. There needs to be an incentive for people to create. People are not going to spend months developing books and products if some parasite can just copy their work, market it better, and take their profits.

Re:They deserve it. (1, Interesting)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469453)

There is no problem with parasites. You are looking at it from the wrong perspective, neither you, no government it looks like are able to understand a very simple thing: nobody in business should be protected, even when one business steals from another, if the result is a cheaper, better product, then the customers win.

We don't need to care about HOW specifically anybody provides us with goods and services, the people who want to make money will make it their business to ensure that they have the advantage in the market somehow, they will just understand that it is just one more risk of getting into that business, but so what?

People shouldn't care that 2 or 20 businesses are duking it out, the only thing people understand is that from this fight they get better value, that's all.

Government shouldn't be protecting any specific business, any specific person's model to make money. We SHOULD NOT CARE that somebody's idea may or will be replicated.

Now, we MAY want to look at the product we purchase and try and reward those, who come up with the original products and ideas first, it's up to us, but we shouldn't be forced to do it either.

Again, there is nothing special about anybody's business, let them figure it out, they will, if they don't somebody else will.

People do not stop competing just because there is no government protection against borrowing ideas or even specific implementations, quite the opposite is true, people compete more.

Do you know why? Because it's not about inventing something new, it's about coming into the market with the best implementation.

By the way, this is the reason that large companies that are good at building and selling products often have research departments and many do long term research (IBM, Xerox, phone companies, energy companies, auto-companies, builders, manufacturers, chemical companies, medical companies, electronics companies, food companies, etc.etc.), they hire people to do research and they pay them. So if you are good at research and innovations you can do it on your own and sell it to large companies or you can work for a company and do it there.

But you can also try to innovate and bring your own product into the market. There is a way to hold off competition for a while at least - trade secrets. That's what should be used and is used in the market. Trade secrets are great - they provide some time before competition catches on, but they don't crate lawsuit happy environment and they don't prevent people from trying to figure out how to build the same thing differently, which really means they don't prevent all sorts of innovation, they encourage innovation.

Re:They deserve it. (2)

MarkvW (1037596) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469587)

Your best implementation argument assumes that the best implemenation will win.

That's nonsense. The second-best implementation will always kick the crap out of the best implementation if priced sufficiently lower.

Make an almost-as-good copy, sell it cheaper, and crush the inventor who cannot recover his development costs.

We need copyright and patent law. But it does need to be made more fair.

Re:They deserve it. (-1, Flamebait)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469077)

>>>Yeah, blacks, get to the back of the bus. Don't you know you're breaking the law?
>>>Don't give me none of that 'civil disobedience' crap, you're breaking the law!

Democrats always turn-everything into a race argument. Okay fine : PIRATEBAY OWNERS STEALING AUTHORS' WORKS IS THE SAME AS TREATING THEM LIKE SLAVES - making them do work without pay, while the owners get rich off the profits. Piratebay is like a modern day plantation, and these modernday "masters" deserve to be punished. (Got it? Clear enough for you? Racism seems to be the only thing you liberals comprehend.)

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469765)

Okay fine : PIRATEBAY OWNERS STEALING AUTHORS' WORKS IS THE SAME AS TREATING THEM LIKE SLAVES - making them do work without pay

No one is making the authors do work. Me copying a file from one hard drive to another does not involve any work on the part of the authors.

The work that they do (should be paid for, unlike slaves) is bringing about the circumstance where that data exists in the first place. But once that circumstance exists, copying the data is not work that they do, and they should not be paid for the copying. Forcing other people to pay for what they do with their own hard drives is vastly more akin to slavery than copying data is.

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469251)

Yeah, blacks, get to the back of the bus. Don't you know you're breaking the law?

Don't give me none of that 'civil disobedience' crap, you're breaking the law!

*grumbling sigh and not-at-all-gratuitous facepalm* Yes, sure, I completely and entirely see your point. Because some laws were unjust in the past, we can generalize that all laws are entirely unjust and any and all resistance to any and all laws is righteous. Remember, civil disobedience is always right, you're breaking the law!

There are reasons why most theory of computation honor students aren't lawmakers or law enforcement officers, or really any position of responsibility in the real world. Reliance on absurd reductions, senseless generalizations, and a pathological devotion to binary logic because they all worked in textbook proofs is only one of those reasons.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469667)

we can generalize that all laws are entirely unjust

I don't see where that was said.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

brit74 (831798) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468827)

> It's another thing to actively copy millions of them, or assist others to do it, and distribute those copies to other people.

I saw part of a documentary with the PirateBay guys in it. Their attitude was very much along the lines of: "If your stuff is getting pirated, too bad for you; find a different way to make money." They were completely unapologetic about piracy. They might as well have said, "You can't stop us and might makes right".

Re:They deserve it. (2, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469019)

Might? When did they use force?

As far as I can tell the only use or threat of force is coming from those supporting copyright in this case. The government in this instance.

Copyright is really not a right, it is depriving the rest of society of the right to copy. I personally think that if the scope and length of this monopoly was lower it might be morally acceptable, but 100 years is surely not.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

xstonedogx (814876) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469267)

I hear the argument a lot from pirates that copyright is immoral because it is so long. So... why don't they only pirate things which are (say) 20 years old or more? Because they aren't thinking critically, they are just rationalizing their behavior. They want something, have the power to take it, and so they take it. Everything else is just to help them sleep at night.

The pirates behavior is a social problem. It shouldn't be a legal one. The use of force against them is completely unjustified and immoral.

(And yes, I'm sure there is the rare pirate who actually purchases something if he tries it and likes it. Good for him, but let's get real. Mostly they just want free stuff.)

Also, yaaaargh!

Re:They deserve it. (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469793)

To be clear I do not pirate anything. I use netflix for my video needs and FREE software for my software needs.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

Hatta (162192) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469481)

Buggwhip operators couldn't stop Henry Ford either. Should Henry Ford have been apologetic to them?

The progress of technology has made the artificial scarcity model completely unworkable. Adapt or die is the only reasonable position to take. Trying to stop the forces of history with legislation just makes you backwards.

Re:They deserve it. (4, Insightful)

Tom (822) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468839)

Your .sig reveals the flaws in your thinking better than your comment above, but it is of the same kind.

You can not compare one with the other. Have you failed to notice how the content industry is behind all the anti-piracy propaganda, while authors and musicians are mostly busy doing what they've always done?

What needs changing is not only the law, but also the content distribution system. Once the authors get more than a couple cents from that CD that I didn't buy, we can talk about unjust laws and author rights, deal?

It's one thing to download a song or movie, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468859)

In law it isn't, but if I had to guess this reflects you usage and you forget the time you downloaded and didn't have to say 'that wasn't crap.' (I know it may have been too infrequent to remember but that another story.) So you concider your usage innocent infringement and anyone who helped you and others infringe a criminal and possible a terrorist. Convenient. I'd go with that.

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468915)

Ah, enablers, huh? So why not fine those equally as involved, manufacturers of blank media? Throw a bill at anyone who's ever been in the business of selling writable CDs and DVDs and then go retroactive on the VHS and cassette crowd. If there's anyone that's ever enabled piracy on a worldwide scale, it's those bastards.

Re:They deserve it. (2)

sanosuke001 (640243) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469049)

They do; there's a tax on rewritable media.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

Dan667 (564390) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468957)

hollywood account is stealing. When are the laws going to be fixed to deal with that? It is a much bigger problem.

Re:They deserve it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469161)

Any market with a 400%-500% ROI is probably worthy of investigation, or at least in need of some government intervention to introduce competition.

Re:They deserve it. (1)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469253)

Not Hollywood but the record companies recently got punished for owing over 100 million in unpaid royalties to singers. The various CRIA-affiliated companies were using the songs on Greatest Hits CDs and not paying for them. "They deserve it".

Re:They deserve it. (1)

Ziggitz (2637281) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469563)

You know I think you're right. I don't think I can recall any occurrences of people enacting socail change by breaking the law~. You might be on to something here. ~~

Re:They deserve it. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469685)

"It's one thing to download a song or movie, say "That was crap", and erase it. It's another thing to actively copy millions of them, or assist others to do it, and distribute those copies to other people."

For money. Pirate Bay is a bunch of people who wanted to make money from selling movies, but don't know how to make the movies themself.

units! (2)

colsandurz45 (1314477) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468711)

10.6 million what?

Re:units! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468803)

10.6 million what?

10.6 million Watt.

At least that's what he needs to get his time machine running so he can go back and invest his 1 kronor in the RIAS and MPAS.

Re:units! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40468829)

Watts.

Re:units! (2)

Ksevio (865461) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468969)

Looking at the old article, it was 10.6 million Swedish kronor, so I guess he's up to 11.1 million Swedish kronor now.

Re:units! (1)

colsandurz45 (1314477) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469233)

big difference between dollars and Swedish kronor

You're thinking too small. (5, Funny)

JustAnotherIdiot (1980292) | more than 2 years ago | (#40468767)

If you're going to throw fines you'll never be able to collect, might as well put it in the billions, and then blame him for the economy crashing.

Re:You're thinking too small. (4, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469017)

If you're going to throw fines you'll never be able to collect, might as well put it in the billions, and then blame him for the economy crashing.

They are already blaming piracy for crashing the economy. Hell, after 9/11, they called pirates terrorists who were bent on destroying our way of life. Apparently, when you download music, you're downloading terrorism. As for the site going down... there's already DHT and hundreds of other trackers up there. People will simply migrate to other services. They could scream about how they're going to give people trillion dollar fines and 300 years in the electric chair for downloading, but there's billions of people doing it and only thousands of people trying to enforce a law they crafted themselves. They'd have to co-opt and topple entire governments to get what they want, and even at that... the statistics are not kind.

The only way for them to have any effect on piracy is with high profile legal cases that get lots of press coverage so people think "boy, I don't want to be that guy." It's the same reason the Lottery is so popular: People suck at math, and if they hear about something a lot, they'll change their behavior... because critical thinking is hard, and following the herd is easy.

Not enough. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40469343)

Only 500,000 kronor? Had they done 500,001 kronor copyright infringement would have been dealt a fatal blow. As it stands the pirates continue to run amok stealing movies and eating babies.

So close, yet, so far, Sweden.

Re:Not enough. (1)

jmerlin (1010641) | more than 2 years ago | (#40469599)

I've never stolen a movie, but babies.. mmm.. delicious.
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