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K12Linux + LTSP = .edu Terminal Server Distro

timothy posted more than 13 years ago | from the heart-cockle-warming dept.

Education 204

Paul Nelson, writing "We are educators who think using open source software in public agencies is the responsible thing to do," says "We have released a turn-key terminal server distribution based on RH7 and the LTSP packages. Simply install Linux and start plugging in your diskless terminals. Very little or no configuration is required. We've included some cool educational software and have (with permission) bundled StarOffice as part of the install. To kick things off we have 1000 Intel Celeron processors to give to schools building Linux terminals. We also have some Xeon processors to help schools building servers. Our goal is to have 1000 terminals in 100 schools by one day (July 4th.) For more info including links to download the CD-Install image (650mb) head for http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/." Any parents (or other aggrieved taxpayers) out there might be interested in showing this off at a PTA meeting. You may also be interested in the Simple End User Linux and the Debian Jr. projects.

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No thanks (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#350755)

Why would I want to spend my time (and money, since time is money) setting up and having to admin a system when 99% of the students would rather use Windows or Macs? (Kind of hard to blame them, too.) Star Office? "The responsible thing to do?" Ugh.

Beg your pardon? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#350756)

What the hell, I'll bite.

Linux-based tech jobs may be less common, but they pay better and are easier to get (as the Truely Elite are still not easy to come by). Anyhow, Windows is easy to learn -- there are no deep skills needed for its use -- so it's better to give the kid something she can learn from and save the easy stuff for later. Hence, even if Windows were an easier OS to get a job with, it still wouldn't be as good for those whose goal is learning.

Re:What a dumb reason (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#350757)

I think you're missing the point. Kid's are not forced to buy Nikes and Reeboks, but they are forced to use whatever computer is available in their school. I like the idea that students may get an opportunity to see something other than Microsoft or Apple.

Re:This ought to help (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#350758)

Sorry to post this anonymously, I can't remember my password...

Which could be a little poignant - I expect kids may do the same. However I do think that UNIX in schools is a great idea for a number of reasons.

  1. Even if you keep the windows boxes for the students you could have unix servers for web/home access.
  2. I think that kids would like the fact that Linux has a cute and cuddly penguin mascot. Really, I do ! Tux'll help them enjoy using Linux more that a corporate logo.
  3. It all comes down to cost. Look at all the free Unix's there are: Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Solaris (for up to a million processors or whatever). The choice is huge and you don't need to pay for licences, etc. And they can run on cheap hardware. Perfect for schools !

A friend of a friend is piloting a scheme to put Linux in a local school at a fraction of the cost and with fewer restrictions than a Windows based company. When he approached the school they were very interested.

Bye.

192.x.x.x network range (1)

martin (1336) | more than 13 years ago | (#350759)

seems the 'private' segment uses the 192.x.x.x networks range.

I thought only 192.168.x.x was non route-able. For a full class A 10.x.x.x is the choice...

maybe I'm wrong?

Re:Not quite there yet (1)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 13 years ago | (#350760)

Actually, I think they are missing the ball also, unless they are nfs mounting a bit on the server.

If you actually have some small media (even read only like a CDROM, that is dirt cheap, easy to upgrade, and drives are cheap) you have much more flexability.

Xterminals can benifit from a bit of software, like ssh encription (which isn't used for security in this case, but for it's compression abilities).

I'd definatly want to run X itself locally, not off the server, but that's only going to require Of course, your uptime for the xterminals may suffer, I don't think you can block off RAM as a replacement for a drive and not expect data corruption over a long period of time (months?), but a quick reboot once a week or so would solve that. And, what's it really matter if they need to reboot the xterminal... Really? You think a bunch of grade school kids will never hit the power button by accident anyway?

Re:Not quite there yet (1)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 13 years ago | (#350761)

damn, my post got mangled... forgot to hit the plain text option, and quite a bit of the post is actually missing... and it's late, and I'm off to bed now... I'm sure someone will correct my comments for me soon anyway :-)

Re:No thanks (2)

BadlandZ (1725) | more than 13 years ago | (#350762)

Uhmm.... Do you understand a terminal? The whole point is you manage only the server(s), and the users all work at terminals (that can in fact run off a CD and not even have a hard drive).

Very retro idea, ala 1970's UNIX... What's shocking is that any system admin would want to do anything else.

You have a VERY good point, why would anyone want to manage tones of work stations.... Which Mac's and Windows boxes demand... I just don't understand how you turned that around.

Sun SUNRay and "Hot Desk" (1)

Avenger (3293) | more than 13 years ago | (#350763)

I mentioned this a week ago in the discussion on LBX and it was misunderstood. So I will try it again.

Sun has released hardware called "SunRays" which are thin clients. These thin clients have something called "Hot Desk" ability which basically allows you to leave one terminal and have your whole session show up on another terminal in exactly the same state you left it. This would be a GREAT thing to have. I am hoping to be able to set something like this up in my new house. Does anyone know how Sun is doing this? Is anyone working towards something like this for the "Opensource" world?

Not a "terminal server" (2)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 13 years ago | (#350771)

I don't want anyone to think I'm disparaging this work, because I'm not. It sounds like a great thing. But a "terminal server" is something else entirely.

A terminal server is a box that connects serial "dumb terminals" to a network; they are also commonly used for "reverse terminal service" for a network-attached host to connect out to serial devices.

What the article describes is just a "server" or maybe a "boot server", supporting diskless clients.

I don't see anything wrong with inventing a new term for this, but please don't overload the existing term "terminal server". It will only cause confusion and keep your message from getting across.

Re:Unfortunately, this is not reality (2)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 13 years ago | (#350772)

I haven't used it, so I'm not 100% certain, but isn't the point of StarOffice that its files are compatible with MS Office? So you should be able to send an attachement from it to anyone that can read word docs.

Personally, I prefer plain text, or TeX.

Re:K12Linux?? (2)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 13 years ago | (#350773)

You've never actually used Linux, have you? These days (with Gnome and KDE), it has about as friendly of a GUI as Windows, and even better in some ways.

Of course you're not going to start 3rd grade students at a bash prompt, any more than you'd start them at a DOS prompt under Windows.

Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of 3rd grade students smart enough to figure out how to use a command prompt effectively in either OS.

Re:Not a "terminal server" (2)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 13 years ago | (#350774)

I have looked at the web page, and I don't see anything that convinces me that it behaves as a "terminal server", as that term is normally defined. However, they seem to also commonly refer to it as a "School server", which seems to convey the idea quite well.

What about OUTSIDE of USA? (1)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 13 years ago | (#350776)



In USA, there are lots and lots of good things coming out. However, outside of USA, there seems to be nothing.

A big void seems to be accumulating in terms of open-source efforts outside of USA, particularly in the Latin American and Asia continents.

Okay, here is my question ...

Is there anyone out there who is interesting to role out similar effort to aid the students/schools in Asia / Latin America / Africa and elsewhere?

Or can I use the whatchamacallit (a distro?) and repackage it to suit the regional schooling systems?

I do understand that hardware - particularly if they are FREE hardwares - are hard to come by in Asia, but I'll ask anyway - Is there anyone from Intel or AMD or Compaq or IBM or Dell who are interested in sponsoring efforts in seeding the Asian / Latin American / African schools with Linux (or anyother OSS powered) computers?

If there is, maybe I will see what I can do.

Don't put too much hope though, I am just an individual, but then, everything (great or whatever) starts with one crazy guy (or gal, or whatever).

:)

Anyone interested in supplying suggestions / help / information / guidance?

Thank you all.

Re:Sun SUNRay and "Hot Desk" (1)

Dg93 (10261) | more than 13 years ago | (#350779)

The Sun Rays are basically dumb, network attached frame buffers. There is VERY little logic on these things, the network requirements are very high for them, since all audio/video has to be blasted across the network (as opposed to X terminals, which send X events).

They run pretty well, though, the more sun rays you hook up to a server, the beefier your network and servers need to be.

Sun had serious issues with the Sun Ray's at JavaOne last year.

(Man, I wish they still called them corona...)

If only.. (1)

MathStud! (17330) | more than 13 years ago | (#350785)

Personally, I think having Linux in every classroom is a great idea, a good low-cost solution for educational facilities that need computing power but can't afford the very latest hardware. My former high school chose mid-range machines running Windows 98 and Novell 4.11. Thus, they were able to offer CNA classes for credit during the school day. I wish they had had Linux running in every lab so they would have been more tempted to provide *nix training towards certification. I certainly would have gotten into it sooner if they had. Instead, I spent my time learning. Novell 3(eventually 4.11).

It's not that they would really even have needed to change the servers at all, as there is plenty of IPX/Novell support in modern distros of Linux. I know that all the machines I hijacked and installed Linux on(muwahahaha!) during my high school years worked flawlessly, booting from the DHCP server, proxy setup, even mounting up Netware volumes.. and thanks to a bad ghost image, the shared Windows volumes of all the workstations in the district.. even the office and teacher machines. I got pretty decent grades, thank you very much : )

Behold! The power of Linux!

Re:You are missing the main downside from this (2)

wirefarm (18470) | more than 13 years ago | (#350794)

OK, I sorta agree, but...
It's changing:
Using linux, I would miss a lot of Windows apps -like Winamp, Napster, CD Rippers - Until I found XMMS, Knapster and Grip - XMMS, in particular, has 95% of Winamp's niceties.
Netscape 6 is almost as good as IE, but Star office still feels like a hack. (Sure you can read and write Word documents, but the formatting gets screwy.)
I do wish my hardware were better supported and I could get USB to work and there are things I wish were easier, like playing DVD's.

What Linux needs is something that it does BETTER than Windows - Something that the average user wants to do, but can't under windows.

If there were a program that your average 14 year old wanted to run and needed Linux to do it, you'd see a LOT more linux users in the future.

To capture a business market share, Linux could become the preferred CLIENT platform for databases. Get ODBC/JDBC to work on Linux in a manner like it does on NT - then make easier native interfaces.

Create a Rapid Application Development language that is as easy to use as VB. Make it accessible to VB developers.

Create an IDE for PERL/RUBY/Python/C++ that beats Microsoft's offerings. (KDevelop is almost there.)

Make it brain-dead easy to configure Apache. Windows converts will want an applet in the KDE control panel, not a bunch of .conf files in /etc.
Something that lets you check off a box that says "Allow PHP" - "Allow PERL" - Stuff that people want to do without too much trouble.

Make SAMBA configuration look familiar to an MCSE. (Make setting usage quotas on SAMBA shares easy and you will win over a lot of NT admins.)

Make IPChains/IPTables easy and safe to configure - a Windows style wizard that asks "Allow Napster?", "Block Common Attacks?" would be great. (I spent a couple of days at my last contract trying to get IPChains running, all the time wondering how badly I was leaving the network exposed while I did it.)

Personally, I think that Single-purpose distros would get a lot of people using Linux - Remember "Internet in a Box"? (It was a $79 collection of TCP/IP shareware that was popular before Windows came with a TCP/IP stack.)
How about "Mail server in a Box"? "Router (with firewall and proxy server) in a box"?
You get the idea - Make them drool-proof to set up and maintain, even for a Windows user.
(Freesco almost has it right - the setup for the freesco single-floppy router is fantastic, but I wish it had the menu option "Install to Hard Drive" and then "Install Proxy Server" or "Install Firewall with most common options".
OK, anyway, I've gotten way off topic - You get the idea...
Cheers,
Jim

Re:Do it right! (1)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350795)

Boy, I thought we had it tough with the pointy stick and leaf of grass (see above post:)

Re:Do it right! (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350796)

You kids and your fancy CRT's and keyboards!

Why back in my day, you had to use a pointy stick to jab a hole in a leaf. We didn't even have punchcards.

Re:K12Linux?? (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350797)

You might have been banging my sister (while I was banging your mom, son) but I guarantee she wasn't a hot chick.

Re:configuration (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350798)

Problem is, most schools got some money for a few machines (or a few donated) but never got the money for a decent admin, Linux or MicroSoft.

Re:Not quite there yet (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350799)

X is pretty damned close.

Re:No thanks (2)

gmhowell (26755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350800)

I don't think that the admins originally wanted a PeeCee on every desktop. That came from management types who were sold this bill of goods: "They are so easy to use, everyone can take care of their own computer, obviating the need to pay for professional administration."

Riverdale, cool! (2)

jfunk (33224) | more than 13 years ago | (#350803)

Looks like Archie and the gang are getting some really neat toys!

Now, who do you think will be the most 'leet haxor? My guess is Jughead.

This is what Linux should be all about (5)

ajs (35943) | more than 13 years ago | (#350807)

Having worked for a high school-focused company [highwired.com] , I can appreciate how much this will help. A lot of schools need help in getting the latest technology to their students.

Linux (and open source in general) is poised to do this. Schools are in need of large systems that students of all degrees of expertise can disect. What's more, a lot of students need to be given positive feedback on their work. What better feedback than having IBM ship the modification that you made to Apache or having Red Hat ship the documentation that updated for the GNOME login?

Now, even better: which platform is more likely to support the privacy rights of these kids?

You can go on and on. The only reasons schools use anything but open source software is marketing.

They could do with some better PR (4)

Bazzargh (39195) | more than 13 years ago | (#350818)

I took a look at the site, and while the goals are laudable, the benefits are buried several clicks through. If this is to take off they need press coverage so every PTA knows the relative cost of the systems their kids use.

They could really do with a 'press release' page, which plugs the cost angle mercilessly, since that is what this one comes down to for most schools.

Re:No thanks (2)

runswithd6s (65165) | more than 13 years ago | (#350820)

And with the advent of Citrix MetaFrame for the Windoze platform, and the promise of reduced administrative costs (even if one has to hire a full time admin to manage it), the focus once again swings around to the thin-client and diskless sytems. Wonderful how technology marketing works, isn't it?

If PHB would just listen to us to begin with, we wouldn't have this cyclical path


--

Re:Not a "terminal server" (5)

runswithd6s (65165) | more than 13 years ago | (#350821)

The reason LTSP chose the name as it did was because it wanted to appeal to the UNIX-challenged and Micro$oft-influenced market. Windows Terminal Server is a version of NT/2000 that provides remote desktop environments for Windoze compatible clients. It's very spendy and very difficult to keep running efficiently for any period of time. You CANNOT depend upon ONE Windoze Terminal Server being up all the time. You have to do the good ol' server farm that Micro$oft is so famous for.

Interested in providing big businesses an alternative to the cyclical licensing scheme of Micro$oft and it's cohorts, the LTSP crew thought the name Linux Terminal Server Project would appeal to these poor, Micro$oft inflicted Systems Administrators and IT Personel. Its name was not chosen for its more appropriate application in the UNIX and X11 world, referring to serial port dummy terminal servers.


--

Re:They best not try anything like that around her (1)

Student_Tech (66719) | more than 13 years ago | (#350822)

A friend of mine was trying to do a semster project where he was going to take some of the old macs (less than 5 yrs. old) and set them back on the network running through our linux server for file sharing and internet access. (Proxy pass to the school district proxy). It got ax'd because the district had removed the macs because "they slowed down the network." It is also due to the fact that the tech-help people (teachers that get slightly more pay) don't know squat about macs.

One of the higher muckity-mucks says that he realizes that I know more about computers then he does. Sit him on anything but windows/dos and he doesn't really know what's going on. Sit me down at almost anything and I can make it work (C64/128, Mac, Linux, Windows, HP48, Asembly on Aim65, ect.). To me the school district wants *eye candy*, not functionality. (And considering one school and about five teachers got Gate Grants I really doubt they will even think about using Linux (1 yearbook server (I maintain) and a student file sharing server (Linux has quota support) are the only 2 machines running linux all the time)

Re:No thanks (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 13 years ago | (#350824)

Actually, Apple's NetBoot facility is a terminal solution and is recommended for education/lab situations. You don't even need a CD or a HD, the OS boots off the network. Windows has Windows Terminal Server which does something similar.

Of all the solutions, Linux is cheapest, Mac comes next (no CAL payments) and Windows is the most expensive solution.

Re:This is wonderful. (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 13 years ago | (#350825)

You should read some salary surveys. Unix admins are paid more than MS admins. Unless you want your kids in the secretarial pool, I wouldn't bother with Windows.

As far as Mac is concerned, March 24th puts Apple into the Unix camp so what's the difference in terms of learning Mac or Linux?

DB

Re:K12Linux?? (1)

dbrutus (71639) | more than 13 years ago | (#350826)

There is much anger in this one B-)

Why not get the best of both worlds and just have Mac OS X? It's got Unix power and stability and nice GUI to boot. Coming March 24th, to a PPC computer near you!

DB

Re:Sound good (1)

CoJoNEs (73698) | more than 13 years ago | (#350835)

Funny, when I went to Eastern (bout 4 years ago) there was nothing but VAX terminals, you could dialup, but it wasn't even slip, just dialup to the VAX. I thought I was in heaven. I am suprised it has changed this much, perhaps if they even had that much then I would have finished my schooling there.

And the first thing the students should learn is.. (1)

SaDan (81097) | more than 13 years ago | (#350836)

...SECURITY!

Not a bad idea, though. Good luck to the gang who came up with this, I hope it gets accepted into many schools who are tight on cash.

Ahhh... The pitter-patter of little penguin feet down our K-12 schools. *sniff*

Re:And the first thing the students should learn i (2)

SaDan (81097) | more than 13 years ago | (#350837)

Doh... That should be: "Ahhh... The pitter-patter of little penguin feet down the halls of our K-12 schools. *sniff*"

Ugh. Need caffeine.

Um... No... (2)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 13 years ago | (#350846)

Citrix is a cheap hack (originally for OS/2, later for Windows) to do what UNIX has been doing all along. It's kind of ironic that everyone bitches and moans about how horrible X is but THIS is what it was designed to do.

And UNIX still does it better.

Re:Unfortunately, this is not reality (2)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 13 years ago | (#350847)

StarOffice blows some serious goats, from its nasty integrated user interface to the way it brings your entire system to its knees. I've run it on 600 MhZ machines with between 128 and 256 megs of RAM and it was just slow.

LaTeX is nice, and you can make PDF files with it. Long live Emacs.

It IS more educational... (3)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 13 years ago | (#350848)

If you want to learn about how computers really work, any flavor of UNIX is going to be a much better choice. Linux moreso because you can actually go look at the source code for everything you have on the system if you're curious.

I haven't checked recently but last time I looked in to what schools were doing with computers, the computer had replaced the TV as a place to park the students when the teacher needed a break.

If you're not interested in teaching computer related concepts and principles and just want a place to park the kids to vegitate, Windows is where it's at. You'll find lots of nice "educational" games they can play and they'll come out none the wiser for the experience.

If you want them to actually understand what they are doing when they sit down at a computer, Windows isn't your best choice for a first OS. And someone who understands what they're doing can sit down and work with a Windows based PC or a MacOS based PC because they have a good grounding in the fundamental concepts that make it all work.

Of course all that presupposes teachers who know what they're doing and a school system that won't get all hung up because all the Internet filtering programs mandated by Congress are only available on Windows. I'll leave how likely that is as an exercise for the student.

Keep in mind that I am rather biased, since my first real OS coming off the cheesy TI/99 and Commodore class machines was a Sun version of UNIX. As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft has been playing a rather poor game of catch up since then, and IBM's OS/2, while better, still didn't hold a candle to UNIX.

Re:This ought to help (5)

donutello (88309) | more than 13 years ago | (#350849)

That's ridiculous. I wish people would keep activism out of the classroom. The decision on what software/products to use should be based solely upon what is the best tool for the job. I'm not saying Linux is not the best tool for schools but this decision was not made on that basis.

I wouldn't trust my children to educators who put the interests of projecting their viewpoint over the interests of the children to learn with the best tools available to use.

Re:Sound good (1)

thefatz (97467) | more than 13 years ago | (#350851)

Its all in frankfort, I work in louisville (jefferson) and its the same thing. If I want to run linux, it has to be microsoft linux. All other linux's are unsecure and may break the network that never seems to run cause of the state nt4, microsoft proxy 2 servers..rebooting all the time.

Re:This ought to help (5)

Stephen Samuel (106962) | more than 13 years ago | (#350855)

Activism is already in the classroom -- commercial activism. Microsoft is 'giving discounts' to schools, Nike is buying add space in gymnasiums. Even some of our education is biased (it pretty much always is). This includes promoting our national history as 'good and right', glofifying Capitalism over other economic systems, and a presumption that our rather warped and minimal version of democracy is the best choice out there.

You can choose what you teach, or you can let it be taught for you -- often by commercial interests. As long as it fits within the defined curriculum, there's nothing wrong with expounding your own thoughts on things -- as long as you identify it as your own opinion and not official dogma.

I went to Junior high at a Catholic boarding school. The priests there were willing to discuss things like the gritty parts of the history of the Catholic church and creationism vs darwinism and why a literal reading of Genesis was problematic. Some of what we were taught was not completely flattering to the Catholic Church. When it diverged from the official church line, it was generally identified as such...

I'm glad that my teachers were willing to 'step out of the box'. I think that it gave us all more room to think about things for ourselves.
_____

I think that exposing students to Linux is a great thing.. At least then they know that they have a choice. What they do with that choice once they get home should be up to them.
--

Re:duuuuuuuuuuh (1)

jred (111898) | more than 13 years ago | (#350857)

Actually, if I'm not mistaken there is Metaframe for Solaris now... I'm not sure about the Solaris version, but I know one big advantage over the Win Terminal Server is the protocol used w/ Metaframe. I use both & Metaframe has much better speed.


jred
www.cautioninc.com [cautioninc.com]

Re:K12Linux?? (1)

api (112263) | more than 13 years ago | (#350858)

Let them eat cake!

You are suggesting $7000 (in licensing fees alone) Citrix solutions, $129 MacOS X solutions (software alone) and $500 Microsoft office solutions (software alone) when this project is delivering workstations for $200 a seat with the servers for a few hundred more.

I would speculate that it is a GOOD THING if they can outfit an entire class lab for the same amount of money the average SlashDot user spend on the computer on which they are reading this.

MD

Not only is this stuff great for schools... (1)

Master Bait (115103) | more than 13 years ago | (#350862)

Xterminals work wonders for noisey offices and homes. I like having one computer in the closet at home with a terminal out in the living room. Quiet!


blessings,

Five nines can be achieved. (1)

yerricde (125198) | more than 13 years ago | (#350867)

Reality: how comfortable are you in sending star office attachment to someone you dont know, like at another company? truth: 0% sure. A word attachment? truth: 90% sure it is ok.

Well-written valid HTML: 99.999% sure it is OK on ie, konqueror, lynx, mozilla, and opera.

Cows don't say moo (1)

yerricde (125198) | more than 13 years ago | (#350868)

Reminds me of the time i got admin access and cowed my entire college network. moooo...

By "cowed" I assume you mean "installed the distributed.net [distributed.net] client on." But cows don't say "moo"; what they do say is closer to "nur."

Baby Duck Syndrome (2)

yerricde (125198) | more than 13 years ago | (#350869)

but try teaching a 45 year-old english teacher Linux if all he's ever used is an old mac.

The GNOME people call this phenomenon Baby Duck Syndrome [everything2.com] . Users believe that the first software product they use is how all software should work from then on, because like baby ducks and geese, they've "imprinted" on the first thing they saw.

Re:Forget SO... (2)

small_dick (127697) | more than 13 years ago | (#350871)

hahaha...don't get me wrong, i have looked at the open office project and am eager to see what they come up with.

BUT...i have also been disgruntled with that "take over the desktop" interface. i know of no windoz apps that do such a thing.

really, i have hopes for the future of SO.

aggrieved taxpayers? (4)

small_dick (127697) | more than 13 years ago | (#350872)

on that note, i wonder just how much Microsoft earns from all things government?

Does anyone know if they are required to split out gov. buyers from com? is this public info?

anyway, i think this is okay, as long as the kids don't suffer too much on the UI. i mean, i don't like staroffice at all, that whole "take over the screen cuz unix desktops suck" idea...kde and gnome have pretty much become the future of the unix desktop, it's just a matter of time.

hopefully SO will improve after they break all the apps out, but we all know what happened to the "new improved netscape"...

Great idea, like Learnux... (1)

aquarian (134728) | more than 13 years ago | (#350873)

I was looking for something like this to ressurrect junk computers and put them to use at a seniors' center, so people could learn how to use the web, email, and maybe a word processor. The idea was to not ever have to pay for software. I came upon Learnux, a Canadian distribution based on Debian, with a lightweight window manager (I think it was IceWM). It was designed to be able to run Netscape on a 486 with 16MB. My own experiments showed that was fine. It sounded great, but I was never able to find a working copy. I don't think the project ever came to fruition. Anyway, this sounds similar, and I think it's a great idea.

Something to think about: cheapo Wintel boxes, like eMachines, are cheaper to buy than "cheap" X terminals; unless you want to get really basic, like an i-Opener.

duuuuuuuuuuh (2)

jailbrekr2 (139577) | more than 13 years ago | (#350874)

Duuuuuuuuh Ignore me. Forgot that X does just that. I need a fucking beer.

Not quite there yet (3)

jailbrekr2 (139577) | more than 13 years ago | (#350875)

And when exactly will there be a *NIX equivilant to Citrix Metaframe? Then and only then would I see these diskless thingys as a serious contender.

Booting from a network server is nice and everything, but having the processing power moved from the client, and to the server, makes for dumber terminals, smarter servers, and less trips to hold the hands of the lusers.

For some odd reason, I seem to have developed a wee bit of respect for the antiquated mainframe technology of the forgone years.......

forget about schools, i want one at home (5)

inquis (143542) | more than 13 years ago | (#350877)

Remember all that buzz about the iOpener? It was loved here on /. because it made a good X client; a computer in your kitchen!

This seems to me to be a MUCH better solution. Just set up a dedicated server in your attic running this Linux distro and buy two or three of those thin clients to put around your house. It may be marginally more expensive to do it this way, but if the server soft is as easy to use as the site proclaims, the ease of setup and use would more than make up for the price difference.

-inq

Great step to getting Linux more accepted. (5)

Dram (149119) | more than 13 years ago | (#350879)

This is one of the greatest things I have seen. Not only is it making linux more accessible to students, it also give students more computers. Last spring I graduated high school and there are two things that many schools are missing; one is the lack of qualified teachers that know how to use any sort of computer, Windows, Mac or otherwise, and the other problem is the lack of resources to buy computers.

One of my friends that I graduated with got a job at our old schools library and he is showing them the way of Linux by installing a server to get their Mac networks and their Windows networks to work together. So the willingness of school administrators to try out new things is there. Giving them easy access to these "new" technologies and incentive is necessary for them to make their way into the classroom.

Apple made a big push to get their systems used in schools. One way they did this was by giving away computers. Today if you go into any public school you will find Macs in greater numbers than any other type of computer even though they are not used in industry as much as other computers.

So this is a great step into getting Linux tough to students and getting more widely accepted by the majority of computer users that are not the computer elite.

Applause (1)

scottbarlow (157380) | more than 13 years ago | (#350880)

WISH LIST

I'd like to applaud your work and efforts to get this a viable solution in your schools. This took, I'm sure, a lot of planning and acting on great coordination, and I'd even like to have this in my home!

If I could make one request - It would be that I'd like to see is a list of all of the 'educational' software included. I did read the part regarding Collaboration, Communication, Analysis, and Creativity software on the http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/educational_s oftware.html [k12.or.us] web page and can imagine what is included, but a list of the exact software per workstation would just be great.

Keep up the good work, and congratulations on getting this noble project running.

Sound good (1)

hardburlyboogerman (161244) | more than 13 years ago | (#350882)

But with the shit-for-brains education officals that we have here in Eastern Ky,getting anything but M$ is almost impossible. Personally,I wouldn't mind having a copy to check out.

Linux isn't for everyone. (1)

searleb (168974) | more than 13 years ago | (#350884)

Infact, it's for very few people. Although, yes, I think it is wise to encourage school children to use alternative operating systems to expand their minds, yadda yadda...

I can't but empathize for the ordinary students who are going to school to get an ordinary degree and later an ordinary job. These kids will only be retarded in their persuits if you force them to learn Linux when they will really only benefit from a Windows education in the long run.

If your budget allows, provide a box, maybe two. But not a whole lab of 10 computers over 100 schools. Don't waste your 10 computer budget on dedicated linux machines which will be used rarely by rare individuals.

At the collegiate level, I've schooled at Dartmouth College [dartmouth.edu] which provided a small corner of absolutely never used SGI machines and at Reed College [reed.edu] which has a lab of LinuxPPC machines, all completely idle. The respective linux/unix machines are nice for me to dick around on, but not the average student. Additionally, that's all I do on them- dick around. I'm not about to write a term paper with Emacs when there is a Macintosh lab just down the hallway.

good idea! (4)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 13 years ago | (#350887)

I am very happy to see this sort od solution for education. It solves a lot of issues with kids messing up configs, and allows for stable setups without teachers having to be experts.

rumors to the contrary, it is simply not possible to be an expert in *everything*. so this is very worthwhile

configuration (1)

edwarddes (199284) | more than 13 years ago | (#350888)

i worry about these projects that advertise almost no cnfiguration needed, anyone running a large system should know how to configure and manage the system to be secure and efficient in their own environment. people shouldnt be lured into thinking that their system was safe bc it had a good default instalation

Positive Feedback. (1)

HappyHour (202053) | more than 13 years ago | (#350889)

That's awesome.

Re:Linux @ School (1)

HappyHour (202053) | more than 13 years ago | (#350890)

Kick ass!!!

Re:Terminals (1)

Beowu1f (209753) | more than 13 years ago | (#350891)

ben_degonzague wrote: This is a great idea. But it will probably take a bunch of talented people to volunteer their time to the local school to implement it.

So what're you doing next Monday afternoon?
Seriously, how many high schools have a dozen or two extremely linux-profficient students sitting in their basements all afternoon and night? I know I was in HS (though I'm still not a pro in Linux). How tough would it be to give these guys something to do other than hack the high school networks? Give `em a job and some great experience setting up networks in elementary, middle and high schools. Now tutoring the teachers and IS admins in the schools is another story . . .

Re:Not quite there yet (1)

Beowu1f (209753) | more than 13 years ago | (#350892)

Lets not forget this is for public schools we're talking about here (at least in the immediate future). That means that these schools are upgrading (assuming they had something before hand) from MS Win 3.1 (most likely). Type-writers would be more processing power than what they had before, I don't think they'll be bitching too much about booting off the network (we'll see in a year though...)

Re:You are missing the main downside from this (1)

Beowu1f (209753) | more than 13 years ago | (#350893)

You may be correct, but educational software is developed more often by educators (i.e. CompSci folk) and would [hopefully] imply a better design and follow-through. We all know this is not always the case though . . .

Really though, if Linux is to have a stronger future we have to indoctrinate more kids at younger ages, get them before they become ingrained with Windows. Then when they get a bit better at it, they can look around, decide the software is crap, and fix it! (Now who's getting ideal?) But honestly, what will it take for us to drastically improve the process for developing open-source software? There must be a demand created for it somewhere, and it's never going to even reach the chicken-egg situation, because no one wants to switch to an inferior (well, bad word, I'll say less refined for the end-user) system in the hopes that it will improve in the future, but that's what must happen for progress.

Re:K12Linux?? (1)

Beowu1f (209753) | more than 13 years ago | (#350894)

I'll agree the Gnome/KDE are nearing windows "quality," (for lack of a better word) but try teaching a 45 year-old english teacher Linux if all he's ever used is an old mac. (I think this has been iterated already...) I think for linux to be welcomed into a setting like a public school though, the GUI must become mac-like for the teachers. Of course, the students will still have the command line to traipse around in and play.

Terminals (2)

ben_degonzague (222715) | more than 13 years ago | (#350896)

This is a great idea. But it will probably take a bunch of talented people to volunteer their time to the local school to implement it. Nice side effect though, get people involved into their school, showing they have a personal stake. Hope it sells (metaphorically speaking of course :) BTW, where can you buy a diskless workstation with an lcd display? Kind of like an iopener, except you don't have to sign a contract for its isp service or pay $400 for one on ebay. Thanks, Ben

Re:This would be good if schools had good admins.. (1)

Alatar (227876) | more than 13 years ago | (#350900)

The fact that they're even running fingerd in the first place is a bad sign. And as far as the password goes, you realize you are committing a crime, right? If you are caught, and if you start using this password you will be, you will be suspended, most likely arrested, and there will be a slashdot story on how you were oppressed by the evil school administration.

Re:You are missing the main perk from this (1)

Alatar (227876) | more than 13 years ago | (#350901)

How are the consultants that manage the school district's IT resources going to make a commission if the software is free?

Re:Booting? (1)

Alatar (227876) | more than 13 years ago | (#350902)

It has nothing to do with the brand of network adapter, but rather a network protocol, BOOTP. BOOTP allows a diskless client machine to discover its own IP address, the address of a server host, and the name of a file to be loaded into memory and executed. See RFC 951 [cmu.edu] (1985) and the Diskless Nodes HOW-TO [linuxdoc.org] if you want to know how to implement this under Linux.

Re:Thats what I want (2)

Alatar (227876) | more than 13 years ago | (#350903)

Don't have a hissy fit. The skills kids need to learn in school have nothing to do with particular brands of software. Kids take a long time to grow up and enter the workforce...ten years ago you would have been screaming for your kid to learn WordStar or WordPerfect under DOS, and look how relevant experience in those are now.

Re:Not a "terminal server" (1)

eplese (233688) | more than 13 years ago | (#350905)

Well unfortunately this name is going to stick. I dont know if they came up with this name or not, but Microsoft calls their product Windows NT 4.0 Terminal Server Edition, and they refer to it as Terminal Services in Windows 2000. Even though this name isn't the best, Microsoft is using it so it will stick.

You are missing the main perk from this (1)

Mn3m0nic (234085) | more than 13 years ago | (#350906)

Terminal Services on Linux! No more NT Terminal Server and Citrix. This takes away the average price tag of $7000+ for software and turns it into $0. I can not imagine a better way to run apps off of a server. Plus if you run Citrix at work like I do, you know that you MUST reboot every night or suffer the next day. With Linux this should not be a problem. Thank God for open source

Re:Not quite there yet (1)

Mn3m0nic (234085) | more than 13 years ago | (#350907)

Actually Citrix already makes a version for *NIX. It is called Citrix Metaframe 1.8 for Unix.

Re:Sound good (1)

iamblades (238964) | more than 13 years ago | (#350909)

I live in Louisville too, and all windows at my high school. I have seen 1 PC running linux though, which surprised me. It was a 486 running mandrake 6.x though, i guess I cant be picky....

At least I go to a technical magnet school (southern), so I dont have to deal with too much bullshit. No Macs or clarisworks, and we have a nice T3 connection, so I can sneak in my lappy and play starcraft in geometry.... the teachers are mostly fucking dunces, but the students are worse I suppose.

Re:Sound good (1)

iamblades (238964) | more than 13 years ago | (#350910)

Its probably different at eastern, because it is a school that has computer magnet classes. My school has electronic engineering and telecommunications, which takes up a good 2 hours of my day downloading mp3. Don't you love the uses of your tax dollars....

Re:Forget SO... (1)

omnirealm (244599) | more than 13 years ago | (#350911)

Let's face it: if it weren't for Star Office, we wouldn't really have much of anything at all in terms of an integrated office suite for Linux. I think it's an excellent application, given it's price.

But SO falls short in many areas; one of which is the fact that it tries to mimic the Windows GUI. Really annoying.

Enter Open Office [openoffice.org] .

This ought to help (3)

the real jeezus (246969) | more than 13 years ago | (#350912)

Microsoft's profitability makes it an ubiquitous brand name. Kids are inundated with all these brand names already. They will grow up thinking that it is how life is supposed to be. Isn't that called indoctrination?

So now some kids can enjoy learning about computers while using reliable systems that don't draw (too) much attention to their brands. That's a positive step. Our government needs to stand behind this.



If you love God, burn a church!

Re:This ought to help (3)

the real jeezus (246969) | more than 13 years ago | (#350913)

Now, now, don't be so defensive. I was merely stating that this decision was good. From the article, I didn't gather that any educators were "projecting their viewpoint". Your assertion that the decision should be based on "what is the best tool for the job" is rhetoric. Is Microsoft the best tool for the job? I wouldn't want to explain to little Timmy that the BSOD doesn't necessarily mean that he performed the illegal operation. Kidding aside, there are many factors to consider, not just ease of (adult) use and market presence.

A little optimism and civility is needed here. Kids have an enormous capacity to learn because they don't have all the pre-judgements we adults have. These kids will be fortunate to learn from the *nix family of operating systems, which has the benefits of longevity, adaptibility, and reliability.

To the AC who made the crack about burning reeboks & nikes in the gym--get a life. I'm not endorsing a backlash against consumerism, I just want kids to be given the opportunity to reach adulthood before making the decision to buy in to it or not. At present, that decision is made for the kids.



If you love God, burn a church!

The problem with Linux... (3)

Leonheart (246983) | more than 13 years ago | (#350914)

Firstly, this is a great idea, and it deserves all the best. However, I see one major problem with getting it implemented - this might just be specific to .au, or smaller schools (my perspective), but I suspect not.

The PTA's and school management's techno-literacy will be a real problem. Down here, at least, it's very much a Windows world - and the people who make decisions with regard to technology aren't always the admins. People who don't understand Linux will probably prefer that their kids use Windows (and Office, and Outlook, and IE - but I digress) because that's what they know and like.

What I'd like to know is, if anyone's tried this before, have you run up against the same technophobia? And if so, any suggestions for getting around it?

That said, more power to the project - and I'm beginning to think that it could well help stop what I just described. That, and the cost savings from going to Linux are always a good thing for (generally!) cash-strapped schools.

Re:No thanks (1)

hammock (247755) | more than 13 years ago | (#350915)

Gotta love that rich visual experience with Terminal Server at an eye-crossing 256 colors.

And people pay for it.

Re:This ought to help (1)

Faies (248065) | more than 13 years ago | (#350916)

The problem with Windows is that too much can be done. I come from a more affluent community where most students have computers and know what format c: can do. Of course, the district handles this issue by mandating security systems- and believe me, they crash the systems all the time and screw up the T-1 connection to the point where its less than a 100 bytes/sec. Not only that, but students are fustrated and don't want to use the computers because they would rather work at home. It's silly and the solution on Linux is pretty much protecting the root password.

Besides that, the other advantages are that students can still work on PowerPoint or any other file they could use at home as well. Stability and speed may not be as important to education in some aspects, but the more the merrier.

Also, from the site's page you can read the following reasons for choosing Linux.

Low cost - Example: Using Flex-ATX motherboards from Intel our costs are about $200 per workstation. All of the software is FREE. You don't even have to register it! There are many other choices for terminal hardware. Ease of installation - Once you configure your server, you just plug the terminals in. You will never have to configure individual workstations again. There are no hard drives to format and no software to configure. You just plug them in... Ease of maintenance - All software updates are done on the server. You only update one computer and every terminal is updated at the same time. You only have one computer to backup. High performance - Terminals run at the speed of the server. Regardless of the speed of the local cpu or amount of memory in the terminal, applications run at the speed of the server and use the server memory. Targeting your funds to make a fast server makes all the terminals fast too. Great software - You have control of the software packages installed and you have 100's of programs to choose from. Our standard installs include Netscape, the Gimp and StarOffice and more. Reliability - The Linux OS has proven itself to be robust and free of annoying system crashes. Computers running reliable software are more effective in classrooms.

If M$ or Windoze sucks is even mentioned in the reasons given, I must be blind. Frankly, this is not an issue over fighting Microsoft but exposing kids to products that work and can still interact with Windows if need be. These people are only doing the smart thing by posting to Slashdot where they know they will find people who can truly implement their plan the fastest. The bottom line is that whatever deep, dark, and ugly motivations these people may have, but you must listen to the fact that they can prove their point without flaming Microsoft.

I wouldn't trust my children to educators who put the interests of projecting their viewpoint over the interests of the children to learn with the best tools available to use.

I also wouldn't trust my children to educators who are not willing to choose the best tools for children to learn with because they are not skilled enough or do not want to go through the trouble of explaining alternative viewpoints versus the norm (and that applies to both the student and themselves).

Re:This is wonderful. (1)

The Blackrat (255469) | more than 13 years ago | (#350919)

I agree completely...I am an Exchange admin, make 40+ dollars per hour, drive home to my nice townhouse in my new Landrover (Discovery SE II). They unix dorks around here go to their little one room apartments in their nasty-ass rusted little riceburner cars. Maybe out in California or something the scale is different, but not here.

Linux @ School (4)

yetiman (262330) | more than 13 years ago | (#350924)

I'am currently going to high school in Canada and the school i attend recently received a $700 000 grant to make our school one of the most wired school's in Canada. The entire grant was sought after by students, the buying of the computer equipment was done by the students and the networking was done by the students. We added 117 computers to our already 149 computer-strong network...all done by students. It has been probably the most enriching and meaningfull "lesson" i've ever been taught in school. From learning Solaris on our Sun boxes to mandrake on our custom boxes to win98/me/nt/2000 on our Dell and Alienware boxes and MacOS on the Imac's i have learned more than i ever thought i would. All because some students were willing to take some initiative and were willing to put the time and effort into it. Now, how this relates to the article. After we received all of our new machines we had a huge amount of old 133's gathering dust. Some local elementary schools were wanting to get some free computers so we said we would give them what we had...on one condition...we hold "computer camps" to get the kids oriented on Linux. That's right...grade 6,7 and 8 kids working on linux. It's truly amazing how quickly these kids picked it up...much quicker than anyone at our school! Anyways...i'am not sure where i'am going with this but i thought it was a cool story to share.

This would be good if schools had good admins... (1)

TheOnlyCoolTim (264997) | more than 13 years ago | (#350926)

Kids would definitely learn a lot more about computers from using Linux than Windows....

When I was about 7 I had a C128 (pretty much the same as a C64), and that thing taught me a lot about computers, since as soon as you turned it on you were at the BASIC interpreter, and you HAD to learn at least some of the language (LOAD "*",8,1) to even use the programs you had on the 5.25" disks....

The problem is that the admins in most schools don't know anything.... I am pretty sure that the admin at my school has never touched anything outside of Windows or Mac, and I know for a fact (from finger) that he has never used his username on the school's FreeBSD firewall.

The security is a joke, he has it set so you automatically log on to the network with the same username and password that you use to log on to windows... including his own account, and a quick search for "PWL crack" on Google got me his password so I now have as much control over the network as him without even having to learn the first thing about Netware....

This guy would not be able to set up anything Linux. Once he saw me telnet'ing to my home computer and it was obvious on his face that he had no idea what I was doing...

I think that most of the admins who are good are going to end up working at a company and not a school...

Tim

Booting? (1)

Skuld-Chan (302449) | more than 13 years ago | (#350928)

Forgive me if this has been discussed already - but how do the clients boot? Is it with PIIXE ethernet cards? If so that is really quite cool.

Re:Do it right! (1)

robert-porter (309405) | more than 13 years ago | (#350931)

Back in my day we had to chew binary in rock, then run the program in our heads.

Hullo???? Why is this such a good thing exactly? (1)

zerogravitas (317294) | more than 13 years ago | (#350936)

1) it purports to being a system which the students can't crack. This seems like a good thing.
2) it purports to being cheap. This seems like a good thing.
3) But.... what software will it run? Your average third grader has about zero use for Star Office running in the basic Linux Distro. On the other hand there is tons of commercial quality educational software out there for windows and mac.
4) Who is going to support this in the long run?

"Here you go Mr/Mrs school board member, your very own highly reliable linux network and its free! BTW you need to hire/train a full time professional to very efficiently run this network since it uses a new technology. It only took you 15 years to get the hang of running your own PCs, so you might want to hurry up and start reworking your processes to deal with this new system."
Hmmmmm....

Re:This is wonderful. (1)

capt.Hij (318203) | more than 13 years ago | (#350937)

From my experience working with math teachers in K12 this is far from the norm. Many of the teachers I have worked with panic at the thought of changing from their old trusty, rusty macs. Others know just a couple of packages for windows (geometer sketchpad for instance) and refuse to use anything else.

This is a noble effort, but the real focus of efforts should not be at administrators. As much as I like linux for my box at home, it still is not quite ready for prime time. The first time a teacher tries to plug in a new piece of hardware only to find that it isn't supported that box is heading for the closet.

Moreover, my biggest gripe about computers/internet in the classroom is that these poor educators have no training and no resources to help them deal with this stuff. We need more than access to linux. We need access to good quality educational software and resources to help train the teachers on how to incorporate the stuff into real learning experiences. It is bad enough that we expect people to deal with 30 kids and low pay; we also expect them to be able to redesign the curriculum in their spare time and use technology that they were never trained to use! (Some of you might be surprised to learn that for some folks this stuff is not intuitively obvious.)

I've checked things out over at sourceforge and there are some good projects going on. It is very difficult to sort them all out, and there is little or no help for teachers trying to incorporate these things into the curriculum.

Phew... I've become a real crab. Now where did I put that sliderule...

This is wonderful. (5)

Jakob Sorrel (321598) | more than 13 years ago | (#350938)

As a parent, I am always encourage when I hear about this type of program.

I have a 12 year old daughter who has shown an interest in computers, and thanks to the efforts of a businessman who is a memeber of the local rotary, her school was recently able to aquire fifteen used computers, most of them Athlons. I was especially excited to learn that eight of them had Red Had Linux installed.

One of the teachers at her school is also a long time Linux administrator and user, and it's simply amazing the progress and learning that she is making. Admittedly, I am far from an expert, but she has already passed me by!

I want to encourage anyone who is considering donating computers to a school to please do so. They very much do make a difference in some of the technologically inclined children's education.

You are missing the main downside from this (1)

l-crowe (322408) | more than 13 years ago | (#350939)

People, particularly kids, do not want to run the junk (sorry, but it's true) that passes for apps on Linux. If you're looking to turn them against Linux from a very early age, you're off to a good start. Just wait until they see the apps that their friends get to use at other schools, or wonder why they can't use the same quality apps that they have at home on their Win/Mac machines.

Re:No thanks (1)

l-crowe (322408) | more than 13 years ago | (#350940)

What must be truly shocking to you is that even after 30 years, people still do not want to run Unix applications. And I'm guessing that you've never networked more than two machines together if you don't think that there's any adminning involved in setting up a system for an entire school using servers and dumb terminals.

This could actually help Microsoft...... (1)

mystery_boy_x (322417) | more than 13 years ago | (#350941)

... as, in their appeal, they could use things like this to claim that they DON'T have a monopoly.

After all, if public school teachers can now use Linux, than anyone can!
--

have a Linux and a Smile... (1)

bokmann (323771) | more than 13 years ago | (#350942)

You know who could get behind this project and have a Windows Killer?

Coca Cola. Nike. Levis. Adidas.

Those large companies are ALWAYS looking for ways to market to the school crowd. Hell, I'd let my kid look at a Coke logo as his desktop background if it meant having the commercial interest behind entrenching linux in the educational system.

-db

Thats what I want (1)

DavidJA (323792) | more than 13 years ago | (#350944)

I want my kid growing up using Linux and Star Office, then the day they start their first job and their boss shows them to their MS Windows/Ms Office box they say "Whats that?". If 90% of the desktop world is using MS Windows & MS Office then surely they are the skills that my child needs to learn!

Re:This would be good if schools had good admins.. (1)

hotthamir (323836) | more than 13 years ago | (#350945)

Reminds me of the time i got admin access and cowed my entire college network. moooo...

Re:The problem with Linux... (2)

hotthamir (323836) | more than 13 years ago | (#350947)

I like the way you put it. Techno Phobia. The reality is, Here in saudi. I've converted so many people from windows to linux. and to make things more interesting. saudis are computer illetirate by nature. how?. by convincing them that its not as hard as it sounds. maybe it was hard 2 years ago when i first started using linux but now in 2001. its as easy as windows. if not easier. SO. my point is, by doing a lot of talking with a lot of people. they dont want a crashless OS . They dont want a powerful one, They dont care how many features you pump it up with. The only thing they seem to care about is user friendliness. ask linus. "Desktop is the king"

Re:have a Linux and a Smile... (1)

flacco (324089) | more than 13 years ago | (#350952)

Hell, I'd let my kid look at a Coke logo as his desktop background if it meant having the commercial interest behind entrenching linux in the educational system.

The advertising in schools that I hear about makes me wretch.

Teaching kids to 'Just Say No'... (2)

journalistguy (398433) | more than 13 years ago | (#350953)

...to the techno-crack that is Microsoft is a worthy goal. If children learn early on about the benefits of open source software, it is more likely they will go on to contribute -rather than patent- ideas to society.

Do it right! (1)

s20451 (410424) | more than 13 years ago | (#350955)

StarOffice? Make 'em learn it properly from the beginning. Nothing but text mode console, vi, elm, and sc. When I was your age, we had to walk uphill in three feet of snow to write BASIC on an Apple II!

Gui (1)

ThisIsOnlyATest (410491) | more than 13 years ago | (#350956)

Gui Mac X Linux *nix Windose mainframe terminal NetBSD network Linus Torvalds qzip spaceman Citrix Metaframe Winframe Server workstation.
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