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2 Year Data Retention For Australian ISPs

samzenpus posted more than 2 years ago | from the save-your-reciept dept.

Australia 86

freddienumber13 writes "Following similar acts passed by foreign governments, the Australian government is now seeking feedback on its plans to bring into law the requirement for ISPs to retain user data for up to 2 years. They're also seeking changes to the law that would allow undercover ASIO agents and its sources to commit crimes which would include, for example, hacking into your computer."

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Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (4, Insightful)

treff89 (874098) | more than 2 years ago | (#40625975)

I hope our pollies' blatant disregard of anything other than what will make them the most popular will contrive to prevent this from being passed!

Also, first.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626083)

Kinda sad the only political party against this is the Greens.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (2)

mug funky (910186) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626311)

australia doesn't have politicians anymore. politics was privatized and is now run by the mob at Fremantle Media that handle Big Brother.

i wish i could vote for some person or party that weren't just the least worst. i'd like to vote for someone i actually agree with.

the greens are as close as i can get, but they're certainly not perfect, and in any case number 2 on the ballot will end up with the vote, so i'm just bit-shifting my inevitable choice between labor and lib.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (1)

Dracophile (140936) | more than 2 years ago | (#40637009)

That's a feature (ie., "bug") of our system of mandatory preferential voting. If, out of all candidates on your ballot, candidate whom you placed second-last on your ballot gets in, you just voted him or her in. Optional preferential voting means you don't necessarily have to do that. That candidate may still get in, but it will have been without your vote without your having to cast an informal vote.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40654981)

That's a feature (ie., "bug") of our system of mandatory preferential voting. If, out of all candidates on your ballot, candidate whom you placed second-last on your ballot gets in, you just voted him or her in. Optional preferential voting means you don't necessarily have to do that. That candidate may still get in, but it will have been without your vote without your having to cast an informal vote.

Not true, I was a scrutineer at the last election and despite the fact that you are SUPPOSED to enter a number in every box, the reality is that if you don't fill in all the boxes and your intent is clear, then your vote is still valid "until your intent is no longer clear". That is, if you mark a 1, 2 and 3, then leave the rest blank, then your vote counts up until the third round of preferences; after that (if one of your three marked candidates does not get in) then your vote becomes invalid.

That is what bugs me about people complaining about our voting system; we can really vote however we choose, and even choose not to vote if we want, all the law requires is that we attend a polling booth and place a voting slip in the box - it doesn't have to be marked, and therefore does not count as a vote. So to stress the point we DO have optional preferential voting - people just don't educate themselves enough of what is and isn't allowed. It all comes down to if "the intent is clear", so votes with just a single tick in the box (not even numbered) did count at the last election (obviously two ticks does not count as the intent is not clear).

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626133)

Gillard and her clown posy need to get their sell out asses asked. We the people should just show up in Canberra and kick her out of the parliament house, physically.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626193)

Asses asked, eh? I suppose you mean asses kicked, douche bag.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (4, Informative)

mug funky (910186) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626325)

in this country, we say "ARSE". we also don't say "we the people".

australian patriots have appropriated a disturbing amount of american sentiments without even knowing.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626525)

A disgusting amount has been taken from the American extreme, my expectation is that they are just in a PR/Advertising and being paid to keep the public discourse rolling on.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626271)

> Also, first.

stuff like this makes me not want to read comments.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (1)

treff89 (874098) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626303)

First time it's happened in almost 10 years of slashdotting. I stand by it with pride.

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626305)

please don't do it

Re:Sincerely hope this doesn't happen (1)

Dracophile (140936) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626371)

You may be overestimating the voters.

Fuck you Australia. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40625999)

People say the USA is bad, but Australia seems to have the most draconian internet legislation I've heard of. Do the people really want this, or is the government out of control there? Any aussies that can answer this? The reason I said fuck you in the subject is because this is just opening doors for the USA to pull the same shit. I don't want this kind of crap in my country.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (4, Insightful)

MichaelSmith (789609) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626017)

People say the USA is bad, but Australia seems to have the most draconian internet legislation I've heard of.

This is US policy by proxy. The US pushes foreign governments into doing stuff like this in return for "cooperation", especially trade agreements.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (4, Interesting)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626235)

>This is US policy by proxy.

That it is, and if it's not direct, it's a wink and a nod, because our politicians can then turn around and tell us here in the states that we need to "harmonise" with our trade partners, and thus things like SOPA and Lamar Smith's recent shenanigans by chopping up SOPA into smaller bits and getting the pieces passed.

It's a gigantic circle jerk with nobody's actual rights, or even opinions, being considered except those of the media companies and the statists.

Just wait for Romney to be elected. The fix is in.

--
BMO

Re:Fuck you Australia. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626299)

>This is US policy by proxy.

That it is, and if it's not direct, it's a wink and a nod, because our politicians can then turn around and tell us here in the states that we need to "harmonise" with our trade partners, and thus things like SOPA and Lamar Smith's recent shenanigans by chopping up SOPA into smaller bits and getting the pieces passed.

It's a gigantic circle jerk with nobody's actual rights, or even opinions, being considered except those of the media companies and the statists.

Just wait for Romney to be elected. The fix is in.

--
BMO

Not only is everything the fault of Republicans, this is even true when the things happening are in other countries *and* when State is run by liberals and the administration and Senate are run by Democrats. Unbelievable.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (2)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626399)

>Not only is everything the fault of Republicans, this is even true when the things happening are in other countries *and* when State is run by liberals and the administration and Senate are run by Democrats. Unbelievable.

Currently it's the fault of the Republicans but we have had people previously like Senator Disney (aka Hollings) and Sonny Bono. Remember them? It all depends on who gets bought the most. The one needing to be bought this time just happens to be Lamar Smith since he runs the Judiciary Committee.

But what I was referencing in my closing statement about Romney was the foreign policy people he's got as his advisors and future members of the Cabinet. He's got the entire board, except for one obvious person, from the Foreign Policy Initiative, aka PNAC II. You think bullying American influence is bad now under Obama? Just you wait.

--
BMO

Re:Fuck you Australia. (1)

khallow (566160) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626721)

Currently it's the fault of the Republicans

Again, look at who's actually been in charge for the last three years and in control of such things. The baton won't be passed on to the Republicans until they win the next election.

But what I was referencing in my closing statement about Romney was the foreign policy people he's got as his advisors and future members of the Cabinet. He's got the entire board, except for one obvious person, from the Foreign Policy Initiative, aka PNAC II. You think bullying American influence is bad now under Obama? Just you wait.

Well, that would explain why the vote flipper phenomena (don't have a good summary of the effect, though it is IMHO probably voter fraud through rigged vote tabulation, but here's a huge collection [google.com] of discussion, graphs, and informal studies of from that time) was going on in the Republican primaries. A collection of the same old remoras that have been attached to previous Republican candidates would not be promising especially in that light.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626789)

Again, look at who's actually been in charge for the last three years and in control of such things.

The Republicans in the House, and the Democrats in the Senate and White House?

The baton won't be passed on to the Republicans until they win the next election.

That's the real problem - there is no baton being passed.

Republicans, despite the rhetoric, fucking love felching MPAA and RIAA execs. As for the Democrats, it should be obvious, but there's no shortage of fools who don't comprehend what Hollywood Joe Biden meant for this flawed agenda of exporting shit law.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (2)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626955)

>Again, look at who's actually been in charge for the last three years and in control of such things.

The people in charge of SOPA and such, where all this shit originates, are the Republicans in the House Judiciary Committee which they own. If you watched (I did) the mark-up meeting, nearly every Republican was voting against every sensible amendment. Fortunately it died then, but Lamar Smith (R) is trying to shoehorn the worst of it in pieces now and he's got the rest of the committee behind him. Again, the House Judiciary Committee, which he heads.

It depends on how many Dems can be bought off. Polis(D), Issa(R), and Lundgren(D) and another R that I can't recall right now can't be bought off on SOPA kinda things, but they are in the very tiny minority. If a mutant SOPA can escape the committee and go to the floor, if enough Dems and Repubs (probably won't need to get bought, they'll just follow their leadership) get bought, it could cross Obama's desk and at that point I'd give it a 80 percent chance of signing, because it would be "bipartisan" (puke).

>A collection of the same old remoras that have been attached to previous Republican candidates would not be promising especially in that light.

That's exactly what's been going on. "Bush" never left, because the people who found a patsy in GWB, have found another patsy in Romney. These days of the Republican Party make me pine for the old days of Nixon. Friggin' seriously. Barry Goldwater is probably furiously rolling in his grave.

If an argument can be made that Obama is a patsy, at least he's a patsy for different people.

>voter fraud

Don't fall into the trap of bad vocabulary, what you really meant (and described) was electoral fraud. Voter fraud is the distraction brought up by the usual suspects to distract from the electoral fraud. The whole voter-ID thing is a solution looking for a problem.

And you betcha that vote flipping is going to happen especially in counties that have pure electronic voting (unlike here, where we have scantrons). I'll bet everything I own on it. Pair that with mass disenfranchisement through voter-id like in PA now, and the fix is in. For sure.

Anyway, that is my tinfoil. If you don't like my tinfoil, get your own.

--
BMO

Re:Fuck you Australia. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40628957)

Barry Goldwater is probably furiously rolling in his grave.

Actually, as per Nixon secret memorandum 113-G, Barry Goldwater was buried in a cement box to prevent his ever rolling around down there.
Come to think of it, it's the same box they put Eisenhower in when they were done with him...

Re:Fuck you Australia. (2)

Nyder (754090) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626599)

...

Just wait for Romney to be elected. The fix is in.

I heard that 4 years ago with Obama.

Hope and Change.

I lost hope and can't afford to make change.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (2)

robably (1044462) | more than 2 years ago | (#40628663)

because our politicians can then turn around and tell us here in the states that we need to "harmonise" with our trade partners,

Funny how it always harmonises towards oppressive control.

Re:Fuck you Australia. (2)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#40629469)

Let me think of a mod...

Funny? no.
Insightful? no. It's pretty obvious.
Informative? only if you've been living under a rock
Redundant? per the rules, it hasn't been repeated excessively, so no.
Overrated? don't know, probably not. This is a chickenshit mod anyway.
Underrated? Hasn't been already modded down, so no.

+1 "sad and disappointing to everyone who reads it because it reminds them of the reality. I'm gonna take some valium."

--
BMO

Re:Fuck you Australia. (4, Informative)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626327)

People say the USA is bad, but Australia seems to have the most draconian internet legislation I've heard of.

This is US policy by proxy. The US pushes foreign governments into doing stuff like this in return for "cooperation", especially trade agreements.

Hear, hear... [wikipedia.org]

huge wishlist of new surveillance powers here (4, Informative)

indaba (32226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626021)

From crikey.com.au
"The final terms of reference for the inquiry match the proposals sent to the committee by Roxon, and include the controversial 2 year data retention proposal long urged by Attorney-Generalâ(TM)s bureaucrats. However, the committee has now also published a discussion paper prepared by the Attorney-Generalâ(TM)s Department to commence the inquiry, outlining the rationale for three types of proposals: those the government wants to progress, those it is considering, and those it is merely seeking views on."
http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House_of_Representatives_Committees?url=pjcis/nsl2012/additional/discussion%20paper.pdf [aph.gov.au]

Only 2 years ? (1)

ColdCat (2586245) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626041)

I've got a counter proposal. what about forever ?

Re:Only 2 years ? (3, Interesting)

thed8 (1739450) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626393)

I think 2 years means it will all be gone by the time anyone wants to look, so if you really want the data then something like 10 years is needed along with a mandated retention system. Every litigation I've been involved in has lost data even when a company had a 7 year retention policy. Not through any malicious erasures but through hardware or software failures. One even had a printout but it was no longer legible. Do the Management and IT guys go to jail because a hardware device failed after 1 year 11 months? Or 6 years and 11 months? Or because they can't find it and the people who were responsible then are long gone? Don't get me wrong I think it is a mistake to require the retention, but if you are going to require it, then do it right. If Australia really wants the data they better say forever and they better decide on a highly reliable storage system and require that as well IMHO.

1984 (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626075)

Orwell's 1984 was supposed to be a warning Ms Roxon, not a guidebook for you.

Wow... (2)

Rainbowdash (2645097) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626081)

As far as I've heard (don't take this as stone-cold facts) is that small amount of Marijuana is legalized in Australia, as well as growing it. Or at least ignored by the law. (For personal use etc).

So this blows my mind, I actually thought that Australia was an amazing country to live in, if you ignore all the deadly animals, enormous spiders and godzilla-like snakes.

Re:Wow... (1)

Jedismj (1751730) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626769)

Yep. Most states here have decriminalised cannabis laws. I think the only state where it is still criminal is New South Wales. No idea what this has to do with data retention though...

Re:Wow... (1)

Mr0bvious (968303) | more than 2 years ago | (#40627117)

Yep. Most states here have decriminalised cannabis laws .... No idea what this has to do with data retention though...

You obviously don't smoke much cannabis if you don't know what that has to do with data retention....

Too many weasels (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626095)

Who are the weasels who think up shit like this ? I'm reasonably certain that if any citizen obtained the communication history of any other, they'd be thrown in jail.

When these moronic wombles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP7CDvQULXw) get the sack, Australia will be a better place.

Re:Too many weasels (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40634275)

When these moronic wombles get the sack, Australia will be a better place.

What nostalgic cultural references. With all the kiddie crap on TV they could easily recycle some classic British entertainment like 'The wombles' and 'Paddington bear'. But I digress.

You assume their replacements won't be the same arse-lickers (another cultural reference) as the current politicians. Their propensity for back-room trade agreements is the problem.

Keystone Spys (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626113)

Don't worry the privacy invasions will be totally random and you may sue them afterwards http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/asio-settles-out-of-court-over-botched-raid-case/2005/11/01/1130823210697.html

would allow ASIO agents to commit crimes... (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626139)

With police like these, who needs criminals?

Feedback (4, Insightful)

Barefoot Monkey (1657313) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626145)

Asking for feedback? You know what that means? It means that if you are Australian then you really ought to tell them what you think about this. Ideally before the end of the month to be sure that your feedback can be read before the hearings start.

Re:Feedback (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40628429)

Ideally before the end of the month to be sure that your feedback can be read before the hearings start.

And then roundly ignored for those who just dropped a few bags of cash off.

Re:Feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40633431)

In Australia, we have this minister for communications called Conroy. He believes the internet should be censored, using a secret blacklist accessibly 'only' to govt & the catholic church. The filter was shown to make speeds drop over 50%, all the ISPs that participated in the trial went against it. Yet it went through. The PM supports it too.

He also committed us to this 'national broadband'. Using hell knows billions, in 15yrs we'll all have access to - wait for it - 20mbps internet for $60/mth with about 3GB limit. Of course, ADSL2+ now gives up to 24mbps for about $50 unlimited but hey. They're paying 'suppliers' like 4x market price for gear, their 'staff' earn 3x comparable rates, and they're spending like a million to hook up single sheds in the middle of the desert with fiber.

much more permissive warrant regime as well (4, Informative)

indaba (32226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626169)

Material stored for 2 years is the least of it. ASIO wants a much more permissive (weaker ?) warrant regime ...

"Modernise and streamline ASIOâ(TM)s warrant provisions" means fixing these perceived problems:

  • * if there are multiple computers on a premises, and it is only discovered upon entering the premises for the purpose of executing a warrant that a particular computer is not connected to the computer system specified in the warrant, it would be necessary to seek another warrant
  • * A new warrant is required in every instance where there is a significant change in circumstances.
  • * warrants under the ASIO Act currently last for a maximum of six months, except for a search warrant which must be executed within 90 days
  • * the current provisions in the ASIO Act do not enable a warrant to be extended.
  • * In approximately one third of cases more than one ASIO Act warrant type is sought against a particular target. Under the current provisions, this requires the preparation of multiple applications, each reâcasting the available intelligence case to emphasise the relevant facts and grounds to satisfy the different legislative requirements of the various warrant types
  • * Subsection 25A(5) currently restricts ASIO from doing anything under a computer access warrant that adds, deletes or alters data or interferes with, interrupts, or obstructs the lawful use of the target computer by other persons
  • * it is not always feasible to execute a search warrant on a person of interest while they are âat or nearâ(TM) the premises specified in the warrant.
  • * The requirement to maintain a list of the individual names of each officer who may be involved in executing a warrant can create operational inefficiencies for ASIO.

naturally, there are solutions proposed for all these issues !

Re:much more permissive warrant regime as well (2)

egnx (1767774) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626245)

Same old same old: government terrified of the internet, USA pushing its own agenda in other coutries politics, police/spooks wanting to widen their scope to the point where they can do what they like, sprinkle in a few think of the children / terrorists and apply to just about any country just lately.

Classic Fishing (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626453)

Classic fishing, choose the person you want to arrest, then fish till you find something to arrest them for. In the UK we have a catchall law, the 'extreme porn' law, that makes it a criminal offence to view porn that is classed as 'extreme' (pretty much all of it except vag penetration).

It's been used several times now to put people away as a side crime after the search of computers and Internet data failed to make a case against the person they wanted to arrest.

Egypt just elected a government, and the military are still basically in power, and the court appointed by the military ruled that Parliament can't meet because some of the members were elected in seats the military decided had to be contested only by minor independents. As if the military can pre-select the people who can stand for election, thus rigging the election the way they wanted.

I've said it before, THE BIGGEST THREAT TO FREEDOM FROM ANY COUNTRY IS MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. The army and spooks, whether its the KGB or NSA or the Egyptian Secret Police or J Edgar Hooover, they ALWAYS end up misusing broad powers like this and taking power out of the democracy.

Why would you put innocent people under surveillance just in case they might do something you don't like in future??

Re:much more permissive warrant regime as well (1)

bertok (226922) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626891)

Disclaimer: I'm Australian, so this affects me directly.

First of all, unlike some of the equivalent three-letter American agencies, ASIO is allowed to spy on Australian citizens. I personally disagree with this, but that's what the current constitution, the law, and their mandate allows. There are certainly cases where domestic spying may be useful. Uncovering trafficking, terrorist cells, counter-espionage, etc...

Now, given that what they're doing is legal and may in some cases be useful, what they are requesting actually makes some sense. Not all of it is a good idea, mind you, but some of it sounds like a genuine effort to reduce paperwork and inefficiencies.

For example: "The current provisions in the ASIO Act do not enable a warrant to be extended."

That just sounds stupid to me. I bet all sorts of other similar police warrants can be extended if required. Extending a warrant is basically the same thing as having ASIO just re-do all the paperwork from scratch and ask for a whole new warrant, but more efficient. If they're going to spy on citizens, at least they should be doing it without killing an undue number of trees, don't you think?

Of course, what they are asking for as a whole is just eroding our freedoms further. Australia already has a substantially weaker constitution that guarantees far less freedom to our citizens than some other countries. This feels like we're going in the wrong direction.

Re:much more permissive warrant regime as well (1)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40634567)

Consider the legal illogic of attempting to legally allow remote hacking of a computer. The very first thing they have proven is that the computer can be remotely hacked and information placed on it and taken from it outside of the users control. Benefit of the doubt, means they have proven that any evidence taken from the computer can therefore no longer be trusted, unless the investigatory agency can prove globally unique skills and ability.

The question will be asked why would somebody want to hack the machine, the answer is simple, random victim used as cover for the true criminal.

compare forex market (-1, Offtopic)

luis123 (2682675) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626203)

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Re:compare forex market (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626277)

Fuck off, spammer.

It's coming, even though we don't want it (5, Insightful)

skegg (666571) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626279)

So much for a fucking democracy. Virtually none of us want this and yet it'll still get passed.

And what the fuck is going on here: the same politicians who want all of our secrets are keeping mum when it comes to themselves:

Web snooping policy shrouded in secrecy [smh.com.au]
No Minister: 90% of web snoop document censored to stop 'premature unnecessary debate' [smh.com.au]

How the FUCK did we end up in this bizarro world?

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (3, Funny)

dontclapthrowmoney (1534613) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626391)

How the FUCK did we end up in this bizarro world?

This is how:

Gillard FTW [memegenerator.net]

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626545)

No actually, Tony Abbott supports this junk just as much, Howard his sugar daddy was the one pushing us to do what the US was doing with their stupid patriot act style junk.

This is the USA trying to force it's stupid policies on us, if this is how they want to play I would prefer closer ties with china instead.

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626715)

No actually, Tony Abbott supports this junk just as much, Howard his sugar daddy was the one pushing us to do what the US was doing with their stupid patriot act style junk.

This is the USA trying to force it's stupid policies on us, if this is how they want to play I would prefer closer ties with china instead.

Yeah, and exactly how is china better in this regard?

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (2)

nedlohs (1335013) | more than 2 years ago | (#40627473)

They haven't forced stupid policies on us?

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40628215)

Yeah, and exactly how is china better in this regard?

China only censors the internet within China. The US wants to control it for the whole world.

You don't see China pushing AU to log everyone's internet activity. That's the USA. The USA has a much worse effect on the world than China.

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (1)

just another AC (2679463) | more than 2 years ago | (#40627571)

Umm... NOONE knows what Tony Abbott supports (including himself), except saying no to the government.

Clarke and Dawe captured this brilliantly (IMHO):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3wKCzIw5Gs&feature=plcp [youtube.com]

PS If any politician is reading this, I am willing to vote for any party that opposes this.
I wish Gamers 4 Croyden (i think that was the party name) were in my area.

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626491)

Only a small percentage vote and are interested in politics, I think in my area the last turnout at 1 in 5 people. So 4 out of 5 people feel voting is a waste of time and have generally lost faith in politics.

I just keep asking myself - how many people does it take to run a country and no one seems to have a clue. To be honest, nor do I, but I do know that the burden has got bigger and bigger over the years i've been alive. For the UK, just look at what LABOUR did to the house of Lords... they completely messed it up on purpose so it can't argue agains goverment effectively (pretty clever really).

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (2)

Nyder (754090) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626627)

So much for a fucking democracy. Virtually none of us want this and yet it'll still get passed.

And what the fuck is going on here: the same politicians who want all of our secrets are keeping mum when it comes to themselves:

Web snooping policy shrouded in secrecy [smh.com.au]
No Minister: 90% of web snoop document censored to stop 'premature unnecessary debate' [smh.com.au]

How the FUCK did we end up in this bizarro world?

By not doing anything.

You want change? go make change, namely, get the right people in office, any way you can.

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#40630905)

You want change? go make change, namely, get the right people in office, any way you can.

where (on earth) does this work? I ask, honestly.

I don't see any voting system that is honest and transparent enough to trust. I don't see any country that has a system where the people really do get their say and bad politicos are ousted in quick time. I don't see checks and balances working in any country. care to name this fantasy country you think exists??

Re:It's coming, even though we don't want it (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 2 years ago | (#40630887)

I'm glad you said 'world' and not any one country.

I think what we are seeing is the end of mankind. yes, I'm being a little dramatic but I don't see evidence of humanity being sustaining, in the long-run. there is just not enough evidence that people and their 'ruling systems' understand how to make things work long-term. eventually, even our best efforts at trying to be fair and just are not working! world-wide.

this is a mankind style problem, not a cultural or geographic one. we are seeing what man is really like, once you remove the fancy marketing that we like to cover ourselves with. we really DON'T believe in justice for all or equality or even fairness. we believe in 'I got mine, fuck you!' pretty much universally. and those who got theirs are in power and keeping it that way.

sorry for the downer tone but its increasingly hard to stay optimistic when, day after day, its the same old shit.

Why they focus on organizations like ASIO/FBI (1)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626323)

and not ASIS and CIA in the first place...

If ASIS and CIA have enough boots on the ground overseas, they'll eliminate the need for a large ASIO/FBI which can do domestic monitoring.

If the politicians castrate ASIS and CIA's ability to operate overseas in terms of manpower and/or rules of engagement, the foreign threat is not hampered abroad and can translate into a domestic threat by virtue of immigration and tourism. That makes a job for the ASIO and FBI, which means more power at home, which means the politicians have a real power infrastructure to use for their benefit.

This is also why the Romans kept the legions abroad and required them to disarm in Italy...

Re:Why they focus on organizations like ASIO/FBI (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626455)

You probably meant disrobe in Italy.

Here's a suggestion (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626331)

Lets have TOTAL TRANSPARENCY in government first (let's call it wikileaks diplomatic cables on steroids) AND then, and only then can you record any conversation or discussion or action for two or more years of those you govern... Feels different when it's on the other foot doesn't it...

I would write my local MP and complain... (2)

jonwil (467024) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626359)

But I am in a somewhat safe liberal seat and writing to Steve Irons is likely to get no response or some sort of canned response about how important this is for the security of our nation.

Why is that ever okay? (2)

Antony-Kyre (807195) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626473)

If it's not okay for a private citizen to do, why should it ever be okay for the government to do? I haven't read the article, so unless they mean getting a court order in order to break into someone's computer (call it what it is), then I don't see it as being okay. (I'm not Austrlian.)

Re:Why is that ever okay? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40627013)

(I'm not Austrlian.)

Well... if you pronounce it the way you spell it I reckon we could give you a passport.
'Stralya will also pass.

Re:Why is that ever okay? (1)

beaverdownunder (1822050) | more than 2 years ago | (#40627503)

Two things you need to know about Australia:

1) There is no Bill or Charter of Rights. The Government can technically do whatever it wants.

BUT:

2) The pool of 'swing' voters (those people who don't vote for a particular political party no-matter-what -- many people here vote the way their parents did just out of tradition) is very small, and thus the Government of the day is very sensitive to an upset electorate, since a single issue can see them removed from office.

Historically, the system has worked given 1) and 2); however, recently both major political parties have been on the right-side of politics -- so at the moment it's a bit Kang and Kodos... but things change here faster than an episode of Dallas, so who knows if this legislation will ever get through...

Log printer (2)

flyingfsck (986395) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626487)

Set up a dot matrix printer with continous paper and let it spool down the elevator shaft into the basement. If the spooks come looking for data, point them at the basement door...

Re:Log printer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626783)

I was approached by a client one day who was involved in some legal action with a debtor... my client had about 50MB of CSV data that they were required to present as evidence to the court. The request to me was:

1. Remove all the comma's and replace with spaces
2. Remove all newlines
3. Print it out on continuous feed paper

I did the task as requested, but also offered my opinion as to whether the final result would constitute actually delivering the required evidence...

This kinda stuff is why I use TOR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626519)

It comes bundled in a nice single downloadable package now.
You get Vidalia, TOR, and Firefox, all preconfigured and ready to go.
Use it ALL THE TIME, not just when (if) you're doing something squirrelly.

Privacy is not a crime.

(heh, and the capcha this time was "despots")

Re:This kinda stuff is why I use TOR (1)

jamesh (87723) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626837)

It comes bundled in a nice single downloadable package now.
You get Vidalia, TOR, and Firefox, all preconfigured and ready to go.
Use it ALL THE TIME, not just when (if) you're doing something squirrelly.

Privacy is not a crime.

(heh, and the capcha this time was "despots")

That's fine if everyone else is doing it, but if you are the only one and the feds ask the ISP to provide data on anyone using TOR, you'll stand out and draw attention to yourself.

If you are planning on doing something "squirrelly", I strongly suggest that you encourage everyone else to use encryption... that's what i'd be doing if I was a "drug lord" or something. Hell I'd even finance development of an easy to use encryption setup.

ASIO (1)

Stolzy (2656399) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626563)

ASIO don't handle domestic intelligence. So the only reason they would crack into someone's computer would be for foreign threats.

Re:ASIO (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626707)

Actually ASIO handles domestic intelligence while ASIS concentrates on external intelligence.

Re:ASIO (1)

jamesh (87723) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626853)

ASIO don't handle domestic intelligence. So the only reason they would crack into someone's computer would be for foreign threats.

Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Security_Intelligence_Organisation [wikipedia.org] disagrees with you

The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) is Australia's national security service, which is responsible for the protection of the country and its citizens from espionage, sabotage, acts of foreign interference, politically motivated violence, attacks on the Australian defence system, and terrorism.[2][3]

ASIO is comparable with the United Kingdom Security Service (MI5) and the United States' Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). As with MI5 officers, ASIO officers have no police powers of arrest and are not armed.[4][5] ASIO operations requiring police powers are co-ordinated with the Australian Federal Police and/or with State and Territory police forces.

Maybe you have them confused with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Secret_Intelligence_Service [wikipedia.org] ... or maybe have the brain capacity of one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asio [wikipedia.org]

Re:ASIO (1)

Stolzy (2656399) | more than 2 years ago | (#40772999)

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. I decided to have a browse of the ASIO website, since I'd heard differently about the function of ASIO as to what you displayed from Wikipedia, and in their FAQ (http://asio.gov.au/About-ASIO/FAQs.html [asio.gov.au] ) section found this:

Q: Is ASIO the 'domestic' security service?

A: No. ASIO operates wherever threats to Australia and Australian interests occur, and its mandate is not limited geographically. The Organisation works collaboratively with international intelligence and security agencies to protect Australians and Australian interests and to enhance its capabilities.

I guess that's saying what I'd heard was only part of the full story.

Cheers-
Stolzy

Re:ASIO (1)

AHuxley (892839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40634155)

ASIO is a bit like the DHS/FBI/CIA - public, will show a badge, sit down with you, talk about that huge new paid in cash export order or made the tax issues go away if you inform on your friends, track people of interest, background investigations for .gov staff. All very in the day to day, in the light for a spook agency.
If you make it up to ASIS your in more trouble. Their 1950's founding, training and ongoing missions are much more secret. They work with Australian special forces as tourists around the world, under cover and had permission to kill until the early 1980's (a bit after Vietnam ended ;) ).
Think ~DIA or other US groups outside the more public CIA.

Jews control Australia... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626663)

... and hence any 'dissent' has to be stamped out. By 'dissent', I mean, people telling other people that Jews control your government.

The Eternal Jew.

Time to member up the Pirate Party of Australia (5, Informative)

pipedwho (1174327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626691)

http://pirateparty.org.au/ [pirateparty.org.au]

Re:Time to member up the Pirate Party of Australia (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40632761)

Ah the pirates.... yet another minor party to dilute the votes. Better off supporting the Green's continued eating of the Labor party's primary voting block. As the Greens take the left they're growing more and more powerful. The pirate party is at least 20 years behind the Greens in organisation and influence. The Greens are already making meaningful legislative stands against these abuses.

Re:Time to member up the Pirate Party of Australia (1)

pipedwho (1174327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40637847)

In Australia, we use an instant-run-off preference voting system. That means you can vote for your candidates in order of preference. The end effect is that if you really like the Pirate Party, but would be ok with the Greens, followed by the others, then you can put the Pirate Party candidate as #1, the Green candidate as #2, etc.

And when the votes are tallied, if the winner can't be automatically resolved with #1 votes (which only happens if a candidate has so many votes that no amount of further tallying would make a difference), then the #2 preferences are tallied in, followed by #3 and so on until the result is unambiguous and a winner is established. So your vote for the Greens at #2 will have the same effect as voting them at #1 assuming they have a chance of winning anyway. Voting systems don't get much fairer than this.

So no, another third party candidate does not dilute the vote tally of a major party. And even if the third party doesn't win, it sends a message to all the other voters and candidates that the party is getting more support than they'd otherwise get if the voting system was first-past-the-post. That means that the primary policies being put forward by these reasonably popular third parties are also more likely to be considered as important by the major parties themselves.

I'd also assume that any Pirate Party election 'blurb' would suggest that the Greens be preferenced in 2nd place, etc. So all Pirate Party subscribers could vote as a block - potentially biasing the vote away from one of the major parties, just due to recommended preferences. eg. put Labour before the Coalition or vice-versa. That could end up deciding the final result for / against a major party candidate, and thus giving the Pirate Party (or any given third party) indirect influence over government policy.

What could possibly go wrong? (3, Interesting)

GiantRobotMonster (1159813) | more than 2 years ago | (#40626751)

Pretty useful for nefarious purposes to have access to the last two years of somebody's traffic...
Identity theft will be impossible to guard against.
The ISPs responsible for storing all this data, need to do it at the lowest possible cost. That always works out well....

The best bit will be the assumption that all this data collected from the ISP couldn't possibly be wrong, incomplete, or misleading.
Framing people for child pornography, murder, terrorism, sedition, etc, will become really really easy -- gain access to someone's LAN, and you can paint a big red X on them that lasts two years!

Aside from coming up with a better system of government that won't use Orwell as a how-to guide, we need to massively ramp up the level of cryptographic protection considered acceptable -- a million orders of magnitude ought to slow the bastards up for a while....

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40627055)

Who pays for this storage? Rent, Insurance, Electricity (now with carbon tax) adds up.
Gutless ISP's not telling us it will add $5 or $100 a year extra on top of what we are paying now.

Risk: If people think they are being watched, they behave differently, and may go back to dead drops.

The solution is to 'Cloud' it with the cheapest provider, and that would be China or HK. Now assume all the Ministers and their families and relatives history records were read off and mined (or in case of royals sold) and used for blackm err pressure.
If isp's wanted cheaper, they just keep hunting for the next megaupload provider - and opps sorry guys lost.

Overseas full encryption proxy out of harms way - nah you have to tell the password - apparently. Time to get those buzzword red flag word generators running to overload things more, and randomly poll Middle east ISP addresses. As for break and enter jobs, after megaupload, people may start novel countermeasures, and publishing the attack using 'flight recorders'.

Re:What could possibly go wrong? (1)

dcl (680528) | more than 2 years ago | (#40635033)

I had always wondered about the storage requirements of data retention policies, on first glance to me it seems prohibitive?

Australia and the internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40626829)

We are miles behind the rest of the world,the austrialian government took Internet as a gift,rather than a development,The American way of free speech is not happening here in australia although it has been significantly freer than the USA for a few more years.

What you must understand is the australian government is oppressed,compared to the rest of the world,we are not our own country although we try to be,we are a new country,with new royalty,and a old way of influence.
The australian government must comply with the influence hence its way of taking after the USA and many other large countries,the australian government has been liable to The Crown for many years,and its only now that they are deviating from the crown and making their own laws.Those laws are that of above considering bucking ham palace has no involvement in australia except for the attorney general who is usless as all crap for refering information to the queen,that was a bad mistake having one representive.
The australian government should have the commonwealth patrolling our roads and schools looking for royalty in their actions Its very easy to pick up royalty I can think of a few in the USA which deserve royal recognition,Courtney Love being one of them.

The australian government is a small place of small people,really the same could be said about the USA unlike England where we have The Crown.
The next step for austral;ia is to depart from The Crown,as soon as that happens which it wont but will,The australian government will be arrested by Buckingham
Australia on the other hand hold royality after all those names for states were there for a reason,and where i am from is the of the demons ,Tasmania Van demons land,the home of the demon slayer,who reports directly to Buckingham and above

What you will find is the world revolves around royalty,and australia is one of those countries were royalty exists,also Canada and now the USA no names mentioned
You will find australia will do anything that is odd,from modifying old US choppers to fight a modern war to bringing in gay rights,they are all a failure in the earthly world,the coppers were unsucessful due to local knowledge and the gay rights were against Crown Law.

Data storage (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40628213)

and I bet the ISPs will have to pay the bills to create a massive data storage facility for all that content they have to retain. Steam downloads, streaming media, WoW patches for each user, the list goes one. Besides wouldn't this mean making copies of this copyrighted content? I bet the copyright holders would turn a blind eye to this infringement.

Crimes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40632523)

If the law would allow ASIO agents to hack into computers, then they wouldn't be committing crimes, right?

All at once (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40634213)

A month after Hillary Clinton visited Australia we have, a US military base (proposed), copyright law re-write (proposed), increased surveillance laws (proposed).

What a curious co-incidence!

Them first (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40648671)

Any time this kind of crap is called for, the sponsors should have to be "guinea pigs" for at least 2 years before it can be enacted on the rest of the population.

Everyone at the various agencies doing the lobbying, to the politician that tries to have it passed, and every politician who votes in favour of it, and their families should go first.

Put everything they do online for everyone to see, and whatever else they want to collect.

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