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Natural Fluorine Does Exist ... In Smelly Rocks

timothy posted more than 2 years ago | from the but-it-tastes-like-custard dept.

Earth 80

scibri writes "Chemists have proved that a smelly rock is the only known place on Earth where fluorine exists in its elemental form, F2 (Abstract). The rock is antozonite, a calcium fluoride (fluorite) mineral that is dark violet or even black in colour, also known as fetid fluorite or stinkspar. Needless to say, this rock stinks. The pungent smell is given off when antozonite is crushed, and chemists and mineralogists have argued over the origin of the stench since the early nineteenth century. It turns out French chemist Henri Moissan, who first isolated fluorine in 1886, was right. The rock contains pockets of fluorine that are released on crushing."

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Talk about irony, (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645317)

Just today I went to Autozone and bought a car air freshener!

Re:Talk about irony, (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645347)


Fuck off asspie (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645353)

That's good, so now why don't you do us all a fucking favor and celebrate by defeating the safety on your parent's microwave, setting it on high, and starting it with the fucking door open while your fucking head is in it fucktarded asspie.

Radiation produced fluorine (5, Interesting)

AlienIntelligence (1184493) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645331)

Clues from previous experiments suggested how fluorine might be formed in the rocks. The experiments exposed artificial calcium fluoride to - and -radiation, and high-energy electron beams. The samples often turned violet, because the radiation was splitting calcium fluoride apart to form clusters of calcium ions. Subsequent tests showed that bubbles of fluorine gas were also forming in the lenses.

The same process could explain the stench of antozonite, says Kraus. The mineral contains tiny amounts of radioactive uranium-238, which decays into -emitting daughter nuclides. The rocks have been lying around for 100 million years, says Kraus, which is enough time for the radioactive decay to produce the same effect as seen in the artificial fluorite experiments.

Interesting stuff to a rock nerd.


Re:Radiation produced fluorine (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645363)

Who cares about a fucking rock. Children are starving in Africa and you give a shit about a fucking rock? Fuck you. Instead of shooting electron beams at a rock to see what happens these scientists should be in the wheat fields growing food for starving children in 3rd world countries. First world fuckers like yourself are decadent faggots who care more about a rock than humans. Those same starving children probably mined the rock for you so you could play with it in your lab. Fuckers.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645383)

Methinks the starving African children should grow it themselves instead of relying on hand outs, some hard work never hurt anybody. Except maybe lazy Africans relying on welfare from white people.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0, Redundant)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646227)

Wow, you found a way to be a bigger fucktard than the poster you were replying to.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646335)

feeding trolls sounds like something a fucktard would do !

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645431)

From one AC to another, what are YOU doing about it, then? Fucker.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

kermidge (2221646) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645731)

So by you all human activity is a zero-sum game?

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645779)

> Instead of shooting electron beams at a rock to see what happens these scientists should be in the wheat fields growing food for starving children in 3rd world countries

We did that. Then Greenpeace and various other eco-loonies convinced the African governments that it was better to starve than to eat our miracle engineered grains. So we went back to shooting electron beams at rocks. []

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645989)

If you read your article, you will find Eco-loonies had little to do with it, and it was simply corrupt leaders of African countries.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647207)

Then Greenpeace and various other eco-loonies convinced the African governments that it was better to starve than to eat our miracle engineered grains.

Really? The article you link to says otherwise. Basically, the African nations were worried about economics, not ecology. They were worried about contamination meaning that they would not be able to export corn and other crops to their largest export market (the EU). Note that the US is already banned from exporting corn to the EU.

And for those wondering if the African nations are being silly not using the new miracle engineered seeds, consider this, also from the same article:

Since the beginning of the biotech revolution in the 1990s, the industry had claimed that its products would eventually save the world from hunger and malnutrition, but it had not worked out that way. The first biotech crops--corn, soybeans, and canola, with "built in" pest and herbicide resistance--were created for the developed world. They boosted corporate profits and were available only to the wealthier farmers who could afford the premium on the new seed.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 2 years ago | (#40650599)

This is food aid. Whether or not the corn shipped to Zambia represents an economic crop is completely IRRELEVANT.

What you quoted is just Greenpeace propaganda that has NOTHING to do with the question as to whether it would relieve starvation.

It's OBVIOUSLY a case of eco-politics getting in the way of famine relief.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647303)

a) you are a dick head

b) shut the fuck up

c) anyone who modded you up should be ashamed of themselves

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40648467)

Perhaps Africans are gluten intolerant, you selfish cad!

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646011)

So get them to actually figure out how to not be idiots. What nimrods live in a fricking dust bowl and keep screwing like rabbits?

They needs wells and irrigation, oh and governments that are not ran by people that make the taliban look like wonderful people. Most African governments are so corrupt that even the Russian mob is disgusted.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646115)

Who cares about a fucking rock. Children are starving in Africa and you give a shit about a fucking rock? Fuck you. Instead of shooting electron beams at a rock to see what happens these scientists should be in the wheat fields growing food for starving children in 3rd world countries. First world fuckers like yourself are decadent faggots who care more about a rock than humans. Those same starving children probably mined the rock for you so you could play with it in your lab. Fuckers.

Well what about those evil bastard 2nd world countries? The ones that, you know, only prior World War 2 were taking colonizing Africa? I'm guessing educating you on the classification index is futile but here goes:

During World War 2 the modern world was politically split into 3 major factions.

-1st World - signifies the combined Allied Powers.
-2nd World - signifies the combined Axis Powers.
-3rd World - signifies the combined Unaligned Powers.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647131)

Who cares about a fucking Children are starving in Africa and you give a shit about a fucking slashdot post? Fuck you. Instead of typing comments onto an internet forumn, you should be in the wheat fields growing food for starving children in 3rd world countries. First world fuckers like yourself are decadent faggots who care more about a slashdot post than humans. Those same starving children probably made the keyboard for you so you could type on it in your basement. Fuckers.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

shiftless (410350) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647295)

And yet you spent all this time and effort typing out your hateful post. Get back to farming, peon.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647421)

Where do you think fertilizers such as calcium phosphate come from? Rocks. What determines the soil properties of a region, and thus its suitability for growing food? The rocks. What determines whether or not an area has a problem with groundwater contamination with too much fluorine, arsenic, selenium, or other trace elements, or too little of certain trace nutrients? The rocks. Many chronic diseases of humans and their livestock can often be linked to too much or too little trace nutrients from soils, and understanding the regional bedrock geology and soils derived from the rocks will help you deal with the problem or even solve it.

If you think the study of rocks and the minerals within them has nothing to do with feeding people in Africa or anywhere else in the world, you are mistaken.

Also, I like the way you did a "starving kids in Africa" troll [] in 3 [] recent articles. Is your goal to give ACs a bad name, do you have "issues" with people doing science on anything but "feeding starving kids in Africa", or are you just drunk and bitter from getting turned down too many times on a Friday night? Oh, wait, let me guess. Some young lady said she wouldn't go out with someone who wasn't helping "starving kids in Africa"? Here's a hint: they thought you were a loser. That was just a convenient excuse.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

idji (984038) | more than 2 years ago | (#40648055)

wake up. It is electron shooters doing basic science, who may unlock the tools we need to desalinate ground so that those starving children have food to eat. It is not a far stretch to go from flourine research in rock to chorine in rock, which can inform desalination. Let these millions of scientists do basic science and 10s of millions of you can feed the starving with the tools they give you. pick up a shovel and start digging. Now get of the internet and start growing seeds.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645633)

This looked really weird until I realized my font doesn't include alpha or beta characters.
Perhaps I have a pre-alpha release.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

Goaway (82658) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647801)

Nothing to do with your font. Slashdot is just completely broken and silently eats all non-ASCII characters.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 2 years ago | (#40650127)

This looked really weird until I realized my font doesn't include alpha or beta characters. Perhaps I have a pre-alpha release.

The Greek letters in GP's post have decayed before you got to read them.

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (4, Funny)

dmbasso (1052166) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645667)

The rocks have been lying around for 100 million years

Heresy! God created them smelly 6 thousand years ago!

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647565)

I understand your confusion. But there's really no conflict. God is pretty powerful, and moves at relativistic speeds. He created the universe 13.75 billion years ago, but because he moves at 0.999999999999904c, he has only experienced 6000 years. Really! Do the math!

That's a lower bound estimate of speed. He moves faster. We are neglecting acceleration and deceleration, plus time spent at normal speeds dealing with humans. But you get the idea.

Science. It works.

once you can smell it your life is in danger (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40657463)

Interestingly the by the time you can smell hydrogen fluoride gas or far worse fluorine gas your life is in danger.

yes the rock in the article contained fluorine gas. and gasses like hydrogen fluoride are deadly in mines, or from volcanoes.
its also known that the most dangerous of these gasses have no odor, which certainly compounds the risk of it killing you because you dont have a warning.

most of us are familiar with the smell of chlorine and i imagine that F smells similar but am not really that curious.

now the striking thing is that the level of free chlorine in drinking water is typically around 0.25ppm, much less than the 1ppm of Fluoride being forced upon everyone.

most people can smell the chlorine from tap water, and if you have trouble i suggest bringing it close to boil very briefly as it volatilizes the chemical and makes its taste more apparent.
(although chloramines which are now the norm have less of an odor)

yet the amount of Fluoride ion added to the water is higher than the amount of chlorine!!!! and almost nobody would be aware of this, after all it is virtually tasteless and odorless at 1ppm. if sure it is magnificent for public hygiene and likely kills water borne pathogens better than anything, with no risk of them developing resistance.

fluoride the antiseptic youre forced to drink! oh thats right, is for our teeth! whos teeth? oh you know children.. babies,... thats why the ADA now warns mothers to use FLUORIDE FREE water to prepare baby formula because of the risk, no not just of damaged enamel but of much more serious diseases things they dont really want to discuss. but they will sell you a lifetime of expensive treatments once you grow up. and they technically did the right thing by warning you not to give it to your baby.

go to the pharmacy and ask, is there a drug that you can give to anyone without worrying about the dose or their history or age or any illnesses?

Comedy Of Errors not Conspiracy (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646117)

Anything that bioaccumulates that is harmful in sufficient concentrations must be kept below very very low levels of intake, sufficient so that it cannot accumulate to harmful levels. Even after 40years! heck should we accept it if it took 80years?

In southern india and many parts of africa the levels of flouride in the water naturally are so high that they suffer extreme health problems including skeletal fluorosis.

So its ironic that another AC below me is complaining about people caring about a "fucking rock" when children in Africa are starving! the Irony! Do you realise that these children in Africa are drinking upto 10 to 40mg/L of fluoride in their water and have a significantly reduced IQ as a result. What do you think reducing the entire populations IQ by 15 points does, how about 30 points.
These countries are only now implementing systems to remove water fluoride which could be one of the most significant actions available to increase their own long term self sustainability by increasing their IQ ! With a reduction of 15 IQ to the population the chinese studies found 1/3 as many children in the "Advanced class in school".

the effects of fluoride on the micovilli sound suspiciously like Coeleacs disease which has suddenly exploded, and sure there may be genetic risk factors that make people react more to wheat but the hypersensitivity of the neutrophiles can be explained by Fluoride.

Asthma rates is developed countries has exploded and it is recognised that urban pollution particularly traffic pollution is a risk factor. But what is it about the exhaust? Hydrofluoric Acid explains Asthma quite well. It causes damage to the lung tissue yes, but it also causes airway hyperresponsiveness. This is called Pot-Room-Asthma among metal foundry workers, where Fluorine gets its name, as its primary role was as a Metal Flux even before it was isolated by Henri Moissan. The latin word/prefix for Flow is Flou.

This rock didnt just stink it killed! HF gas is deadly by the time you can smell it making it particularly dangerous. Do you really think you can tell you are being exposed to it chronically, over decades, when it only becomes detectable at immediately life threatening levels.

By the way the immediately life threatening levels are around 25mg/m^3, so how many mg does it actually take to kill someone ? the accidents that have occurred in Alaska where people died after drinking over fluorinated water, vomited and then drank more, repeat, until death occured. The victims showed levels in their urine at around 20mg/L, we PUT 1mg/L in the water and tell people its good for them!

Vitamin C has a major detox role in the body, and one of these is to protect from F. The experiments in India attempting to reverse Skeletal Fluorosis use 500mg + of Vit C and Vit D and E are also shown to remove it from the body, and E helps to remove it from the CNS where it concentrates.

Its more a comedy of errors than a conspiracy, along the line of governments being complicit in allowing paracetamol to be advertised as being the "safe option" and suitable for kids. From our mistakes we are figuring out more about ourselves than we could have expected.

Oh and before anyone mentions anything about the "conspiracy" as opposed to the "comedy of errors" that is water fluoridation in America consider that Japan _doesnot_ fluoridate its water. Neither dose most of europe, also calcium fluoride added to salt has 1/50 th the dissociation in water that NaF does, possibly meaning 50 times more bioavailability. Tests measuring the levels of rat urine shows that the Silicon Fluorine compounds that are in practise used may increase the urine level of F by 3 times over the same concentration of NaF in their drinking water, suggesting an increase in the level transported to the plasma by 3 times (actually more than that because its being deposited almost everywhere along the line between the plasma and the proximal renal cells/kidney/urethra).

Why does Japan not fluoridate its water? well the islands of northern japan were occupied for 30years by the american during which time the inhabitants drank fluorinated water, an analysis of the incidence of cancers showed an increase by 3 times in female reproductive system cancers.

Various European countries have done their own studys. France, heck they're so smart they dont even use Aluminium for drinking vessels, they use stainless steel. Is it really worth the 10c if the more than 20mg/day of Aluminium that you can excrete (not counting the vulnerable, which we really should) is consumed and absorbed then you will get bioaccumulation of that too.

Perhaps you would listen to one of the authorities, a female programmer and scientist who was one of the first to write software to automatically visually analyse the behaviour of rats for the purpose of objectively measuring and screening for neurotoxicity!

Dr. Phyllis Mullenix

Then there is something that ive kind of come up with myself with a bit of reading. Now being a scientist I will say that this is a hypothesis, its also very likely that I am not the first person to cotton on to this, but its not widely recognised even as a hypothesis.

Come on SLASHDOT falsify my THEORY!!!

This is my theory.

DNA involves nucleotides that pair up G with C and T with A. This is because of the number of hydrogen bonds which must be equal. So that G and C both have 3 and T and A both have 2.

One of the most common mutation/corruption mechanisms is that a C spontaneously breaks off a nitrogen, Deamination, and turns into a Uracil, or a U. This is called spontaneous deamination of cystosine. Now when the DNA is replicated it is unzipped and the compliments are inserted making two strands. But because the U looks like a T, the enzyme/system/nanomachine responsible would put an A in opposite the U masquerading as a T, leading to corruption of the DNA as one copy is ok but the other has had a C change into a A. or a 3 turn into a 2. Now there are many levels of error correction and the first one is that groups of 3 complimentary base pairs form a codon, and there is redundancy so that often the group mutates into another code word for the same aminoacid and so the final protein is identical.

So the body has a mechanism to perform repair to spontaneously deaminated DNA because it can tell the difference between a U and a T because the T is tagged with a methyl group at the 5 position, in otherwords a T is a 5-methyl-uracil.

So sometime in the past DNA used uracil and thymine was developed as an error correction or a defence against recognition by bacteria, there are multiple theories. Insects still have uracil in their dna, and some insects have two sets of DNA where the insect metamorphoses. The juvenile cells use uracil and the adult cells, where the extra error protection is worth its cost, use thymine.

The cost of making thymine is methylation which is an expensive process needed for many things throughout the body. The primary methylation pathway with uses methionine also causes a buildup of homocysteine which eventually becomes toxic and is a major riskfactor for cardiovascular disease.

RNA still uses uracil because being temporary its not worth having the cost of methylation to use thymine.

Also the adaptive immune system, which is quite recent in humans, intentionally mutates itself as a kind of randomisation routine, to randomise antibodies. This randomisation routine uses this mutation mechanism of G opposite a C possible being copied as an A. Uracil is important part of this system in neutrophiles too.

An interesting related aside. Bromine can cause cancer, and act as a radio-sensitiser (increasing the damage caused by ionising radiation by 10x or more). But why? Well an important mechanism is that in the presence of uracil, 5-bromo-uracil forms and is thermodynamically favourable.

Now because the size of the halogens varies through the series so that the radius of I > Br > Cl > F.

So because of the size of Bromine, 5-bromouracil is a similar size and shape to 5-methyl-uracil and so is an analogue of Thymine. It is a particularly interesting compounds and is often used to detect neurogenesis or cellular synthesis (the S part of the cell cycle) because if you inject a rat with BrU the cells that duplicate will incorporate the BrU into their DNA and so if you use radioactive BrU you can image cellular replication.

Now it turns out that some DNA is particularly rich in T's and there might be a long sequence of TTTT, now if some of these T's ,and it only takes two in a row, are actually BrU then and interesting thing occurs. when the dna is hit by radiation in the UV range it can kink where the TT sequence exists (because G:C rich regions have a higher density of hydrogen bonds they grip more tightly and are more stable and less likely to kink than T:A, so a long run of T's is less stable and more likely to kink).

There are enzymes that can straighten out the kink, but if BrU is incorporated instead of the T or T's, Double Strand Breaks occur. Which can lead to cell dead, or melanoma if that fails.

So its not just the UV that is the problem, (although it is a necessary part of the issue), but radiosensitisers can make us 10x more likely to incur DSB of our DNA and cancer.

Now what about the other halogens, what happens when Fluorine is in the presence of Uracil. Ah. Well. 5-Fluoro-Uracil or 5FU forms because it is thermodynamically favourable.

Because the radius of the F in 5FU is smaller than the other halogens in the series it is NOT an analogue of Thymine, it is smaller than the methyl group. It is infact an analogue of Uracil. Except the fluorine at the 5 position grips the uracil tightly more strongly than the hydrogen present in uracil.

Uracil and Thymine are not used as is in construction of DNA they are packaged in a higher energy state with some phosphate groups which provide charges distributions useful to manipulate and position the nucleotide. these are termed dTTP and dUTP ..

Now that ratio of these molecules is strictly regulated, only during the final Growth stage of cell cycle immediately before the S phase is the level of dTTP increased in preparation for DNA synthesis. The DNA is very vulnerable during the S phase so all preparations are made so that it can occur as quickly as possible to reduce the time window for damage.

The regulation is partially done by kinases related to Thymadine Synthetase which is the enzyme which uses methylation donors to methylate dUTP and turn it into dTTP. One kinases is active all the time and probably involved with DNA repair that goes on all the time, for which a small source of dTTP is required. Oh also base excision is done when a U is spotted in the DNA later an enzyme inserts a T, but if there is too much U floating around it might incorporate a U again, and too many excisions can cause Single Strand or Double Strand Breaks. So this is part of the reason to keep dUTP low.

a single 5FU molecule permanently destroys a Thymadine Synthetase enzyme. This is a large complex machine that takes significant energy to rebuild, and even to break down and recycle in a futile cycle.

But this might be a defence mechanism. The fact that TS is so sensitive to 5FU means that DNA synthesis would be significantly inhibited by the presence 5FU.


that Fluoride in drinking water provides Fluorine ions within the cytoplasm that lead to the formation of enough 5FU to have a significant effect on the development of the organism and that this occurs because of destruction of Thymidylate synthase.

the TS is damaged by 5FU because it trys to add a methyl group to the 5 position of what it thinks if a Uracil and breaks.

The development of an organism as complex as a mammal is an orchestrated sequence of Cell Cycles, if the timing is perturbed because of a delay in reaching sufficient levels of dTTP to trigger the S phase, this will cause developmental defects.

Breast milk has extremely low levels of fluorine, only 4 parts per BILLION, even when the mother is exposed to levels hundreds of times higher. Many seeds and fruit bodies have very low levels of fluorine. Perhaps it is an evolutionary adaption to decrease the level of developmental defects that occur due to fluorine.

Salmon swim upstream, and it is because they require the very purest of water, with the lowest level of Fluorine, for the healthiest offspring, its evolution! Salmon that could find purer water to spawn were healthier/lived-longer and out-competed.

The ADA now recommends to mix baby formula with WATER without fluorine. How many poor mothers can afford to find a supply of bottled water without fluorine and buy and mix their children formula with it? Among those that _could_ afford it, how many has the message reached? How many _will_ actually do that! Currently, probably around 1/1000. Water filters do not remove Fluorine because of its size it is extremely difficult to remove.

Ok. Thats bad enough. Now consider that in a moderately acidic envionment AlF_3 forms rather than insoluble hydroxides, and that AlF_3 mimics TSH. This is a major cause of sleep cycle disruption. The body is supposed to shut down at night, but AlF_3 causes a constant stimulation which in the short term causes improved performance and protection against cholinergic agents. Ie mice treated with AlF_3 had higher performance on a balance beam test and were protected against scopolamine. But in the long term causes burn out, sleep disruption and health problems as the body cannot relax at night and becomes depleted in glutathione. because the liver and other endocrine organs become dysregulated.

Bibliography and References (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40648537)

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From)i, the Department of Physiology, Bedford College (University of London), London, N. W.1. Received for publication November 19, 1951.

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Interactions of Bromide, Iodide, and Fluoride with the Pathways of Chloride Transport and Diffusion in Human Neutrophils, Louis SIMCHOWITZ, J. GEN. PHYSIOL, Volume 91 June 1988 835-860

WATER FLUORIDATION AND CRIME IN AMERICA, Fluoride 2005;38(1):11–22 Research report 11, Jay Seavey


Intake, Metabolism, and Disposition of fluoride

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AND WILLIAM J. KERNAN, Neurotoxicology and Teratology, Vol. 17, No. 2, pp. 169-177, 1995

Age-specific fluoride exposure in drinking water and osteosarcoma (United States), Cancer Cause Control, 2006

Liang Li

Vol 9 and 10, No 2 and No 3, June 1953
The Queensland Journal of Agricultural Science

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Molecular Cell, Prospects for Riboswitch Discovery and Analysis, DOI 10.1016/j.molcel.2011.08.024

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Phytother. Res. 18, 244–246 (2004), The effect of Pycnogenol on Fluoride induced Rat Kidney Lysosomal Damage in vitro

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Ultrastructural study of the mitochondria in the submandibular gland, the pancreas and the liver of young rats, exposed to NaF in drinking water, Vol. 49, 2004 Suppl. 1, Proceedings Annales Academiae Medicae Bialostocensis, Dbrowska E1, Balunowska M1, Letko R1, Szynaka B2

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Recommendation from Scientific Committee on Occupational Exposure Limits for Fluorine, Hydrogen Fluoride and Inorganic Fluorides (not uranium hexafluoride)
Biological limit value for fluorine, : 8 mg F- /l in urine
hydrogen fluoride and inorganic fluorides (end of shift value)
8-hour TWA STEL (15 mins)
Mixtures of inorganic fluorides and hydrogen fluoride 2.5 mg/m3 -
Pure hydrogen fluoride 1.5 mg/m3 as F- 3 ppm (2.5 mg/m3)
Fluorine 1 ppm (1.58 mg/m3) 2 ppm (3.16 mg/m3)

Health Significance:
Acute topical exposure to fluorine or hydrogen fluoride results in irritation or corrosion.
Five human volunteers were exposed to controlled concentrations of fluorine in the air
(Keplinger and Suissa, 1968). A concentration of 10 ppm (15.8 mg/m3) was not found
particularly irritating for as long as 15 minutes, but 25 ppm (39.5 mg/m3) was slightly
irritating to the eyes. At 50 ppm (79 mg/m3) respiratory irritation was also reported. Several
repeated exposures at 10 ppm (15.8 mg/m3) resulted in skin irritation.
Hydrogen fluoride acts primarily as a corrosive, but secondary tissue necrosis may result from
the toxicity of the free fluoride ion in the tissues (Harris and Rumack, 1981). Exposure of five
volunteers to hydrogen fluoride at concentrations in the region 2.6 - 4.7 ppm (2.1 - 3.9
mg/m3) for 6h per day over 10 - 50 days, gave rise to slight irritation of the facial skin, eyes
and nose (Largent and Columbus, 1960). Exposures to an average concentration of 1.42 ppm
(1.2 mg/m3) were considered to have no effects, although an unpleasant taste in the mouth
was experienced.

When inhaled, absorption of fluorine gas or hydrogen fluoride can be expected to be virtually
complete. Fluorine is converted to fluoride, and then distribution and retention will follow the
normal patterns for inorganic fluoride (WHO, 1984). The critical effects of chronic exposure
to low concentrations of fluorine and hydrogen fluoride are due to the systemic effects of
fluoride. The remainder of this evaluation will therefore consider the effects of the fluoride
About 50% of absorbed fluoride is retained by the bone and 99% of body fluoride is taken up
by the bones (Dinman et al., 1976a). Renal excretion is the main elimination route and
accounts for 40 to 60% of absorbed fluoride. When workers are exposed to particulate
fluoride and hydrogen fluoride there is a correlation between the fluoride excreted in eight
hours and the plasma fluoride level (Ehrnebo and Ekstrand, 1986). In the aluminium industry
it is generally accepted that pre-shift and post-shift levels of fluoride in the urine constitute a
good index of fluoride exposure (Dinman et al., 1976b).

The critical effect of chronic exposure to fluoride ion is fluorosis, particularly affecting the
skeleton. Classical symptoms are osteosclerosis, exostosis and calcification of ligaments.
Skeletal fluorosis was not found in aluminium workers whose urine was monitored, average
concentrations being 2.78 mg F-/l in pre-shift samples and 7.7 mg F-/l in post-shift samples
for the high-exposure group (Dinman et al., 1976b).
If a worker is exposed to fluorine at 1 ppm (1.58 mg/m3), then the normal respiration rate at 1
m3 per hour will result in inhalation of about 1.5 mg of fluorine, which is assumed to be fully
absorbed. About half of this amount will eventually be excreted in the urine. By the end of the
workday, steady-state conditions will be approximated, with about 0.75 mg being excreted
per hour. Assuming urinary flow of about 1.5 ml/min, the fluoride concentration in the urine
at the end of the shift will then be approximately 8 mg/l, i.e. equivalent to the level found not
to result in fluorosis by Dinman et al., (1976b).
Studies of genotoxicity have given variable results, but a recent bioassay has shown a small
number of osteosarcomas in rats exposed to high levels of sodium fluoride (NTP, 1991).
These findings were judged to be equivocal evidence of carcinogenicity. No data are available
on teratogenicity.


Uracil in DNA—General mutagen, but normal intermediate in acquired immunity, Bodil Kavli , Marit Otterlei, Geir Slupphaug, Hans E. Krokan, doi:10.1016/j.dnarep.2006.10.014

Effect of interferon on 5-fluorouracil-induced perturbations in pools of deoxynucleotide triphosphates and DNA strand breaks.

Mechanism for Exclusion of 5-Fluorouracil from DNA, Holly A. lngraham,2 Ben V. Tseng, and Mehran Goulian3, Cancer Res 1980;40:998-1001.

5-Fluorouracil Substitution Alters Pre-mRNA Splicing in Vitro, Shin-Lian Doong and Bruce J. Dolnick, THE JOURNAL OF BIOLOGICAL CHEMISTRY

Studies on defluoridation of water by Tamarind seed, an unconventional biosorbent
M. Murugan and E. Subramanian

J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1996, 118, 5796-5803, Mechanistic Studies of the 5-Iodouracil Chromophore Relevant to Its Use in Nucleoprotein Photo-Cross-Linking

Nonradiative Deactivation Mechanisms of Uracil, Thymine, and 5-Fluorouracil: A Comparative ab Initio Study
Shohei Yamazaki* and Tetsuya Taketsugu, The Journal of Physical Chemistry A

Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2011, 8, 2132-2141; doi:10.3390/ijerph8062132, Effect of Discontinuation of Fluoride Intake from Water and Toothpaste on Urinary Excretion in Young Children

URINARY FLUORIDE EXCRETION IN CHILDREN AGED 3 TO 5 YEARS, EXPOSED TO FLUORIDATED SALT AT 60 TO 90 mgF/Kg IN, TWO VENEZUELAN CITIES. A PILOT STUDY, Ana M. Acevedo1, Carolina Febres-Cordero2, Sonia Feldman2, Marlene A. Arasme3, Daniel F. Pedauga3, Henry González3, Fátima Rojas-Sánchez1
Acta Odontol. Latinoam. 2007

DOI: 10.1503/jpn.100057 N-acetylcysteine in psychiatry: current therapeutic evidence and potential mechanisms of action

DNA repair mechanisms in plants: crucial sensors and effectors for the maintenance of genome integrity doi: 10.1111/j.1469-8137.2005.01548.x

Summary of Informal Discussions on the Role of Pyrimidine Antagonists Following Papers by Dr. Prusoff and Dr. Calabresi
Arnold D. Welch, Cancer Res 1963;23:1268-1276.

Fluoride 2005;38(3):209–214 Research report 209

Jennifer Anne Luke

Dihydropyrimidine dehydrogenase deficiency (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40652867)

People with DDD will be much more vulnerable to the inhibition of TS and any deleterious effects due to the in vivo formation of 5FU. This is "nearly 8% of the population".

DDD may not be entirely causative but it may be an important risk factor.

We will find out soon enough if there is a link between DDD and cancers or other deleterious effects of in vivo formation of 5FU.

an actually informative post (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40657293)

this post is actually informative. and its only at 1 interesting so far... i guess the shills control /. .... or perhaps it is just all the americans who trust authorities so much they will happily ignore all the chronic illnesses theyre developing to save their oh so benevolent masters a couple of billion in environmental clean up costs.

fluorine waste is prohibited from being dumped in the ocean by international law. but its legal to put in the water supply.

heck forget about the fluoride, the toxic waste theyre dumping contains heavy metals. not just arsenic either (which is only as toxic as fluoride anyway, and i'd choose a little arsenic over fluoride anyway)... but POLONIUM (and others)

that POLONIUM is soooo good for your teeth, it makes them glow (wink)

Re:Radiation produced fluorine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646205)

You're currently at +5 interesting, so my mod points are irrelevant, but thank you for the information.

communists! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645357)

Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

Re:communists! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645421)

Yeah, General Ripper!

Do not pollute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646207)

our precious bodily fluids!

Re:communists! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645507)

Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

No shit.

They're all over the place.

They've even gotten to the rocks that make up the planet!!!!!

Re:communists! (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646001)

"Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?"

Shut up and drink more water comrade...

Re:communists! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40649269)

And yet Watsonville, CA (an exception to flouridation) tends to vote more conservatively than other parts of Santa Cruz County. People on well water (presumeabley not flouridated) who live in the hills are more likely to vote for Ron Paul or some other Republican. They produce a lot of meth and stuff up there, and the cartel squatters are presumeably not on flouridation. So. go figure.

Re:communists! (1)

Mal-2 (675116) | more than 2 years ago | (#40652865)

Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

Funny, I got a pamphlet from Pueblo, Colorado entitled, "Do you know what the queers are doing to our soil?" They're planting elemental fluorine to defoliate landing strips for gay Martians! You know what, AC, I like you. You're not like the other people, here in this trailer park.

Now you did it... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645439)

You're gonna bring out all the anti-flouride nuts.

People so worried about a massive decades long goverment flouride consipracy that can be beat by buying a water filter....

Re:Now you did it... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645537)

... consipracy that can be beat by buying a water filter....

Name a *cheap* household water filter that will remove fluorine. I've never found one. Sure, your Brita or Pur will remove most of the chlorine, but that's not the halogen we're talking about.

People in rural areas with wells which are contaminated with high levels of (usually natural) fluorine have no easy way to clean up the water, which can cause serious health problems as well as blackening the teeth.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

kubernet3s (1954672) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645647)

Ahem.... Good troll, sir, you almost had me.

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645997)


$200 reverse osmosis system.

Oh you want the $20 version? Not gonna happen. Stop drinking beer long enough to save up $200.

If you cant even do that.... why SHOULD i care if the flouride kills you?

Re:Now you did it... (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645999)

Oh christ, your teeth will not BLACKEN.. they will mottle and turn a little brown. and it's highly rare.

No wonder you are modded Troll, you went so far overboard even the sharks in the water are looking at you with the "is he insane" look.

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647601)

It's not highly rare. We could spot people from Lordsburg NM from the color of their teeth.

Re:Now you did it... (2)

black6host (469985) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645637)

People so worried about a massive decades long goverment flouride consipracy that can be beat by buying a water filter..

Sorry, I don't understand. Are we talking about flourine or flouride? I'm 54 (and no chemist so I don't know the difference, please excuse me) and the water I grew up with was flouridated, the toothpaste I use also contains one of the above. To the poster below regarding black teeth. I still have all my teeth and they are not black. Daily brushing and flossing seem to have kept them in pretty good shape over the years.

So..... instead of assuming that everyone knows the dangers, please educate me. That's an honest request actually. I'm no fan of the things the government has done that have been proven to be of harm to the general citizenship, and I believe many such a thing has probably happened. But please, more info. If I need a few more layers on the tinfoil hat I'd like to know :)

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645659)

Have you ever seen a communist drink water? My point exactly.....

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40645799)

If I need a few more layers on the tinfoil hat I'd like to know

Yeah, right. Like you really made a foil hat out of actual Tin.

Re:Now you did it... (5, Informative)

wierd_w (1375923) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645815)

Not a chemist either, just a chemistry nerd, but:

First. Its "Fluorine", not "flourine". No ground up wheat is involved. :D (sorry for the nitpick. Its an honest mistake.)

Second, "fluorine" is the elementary pure form. Pure fluorine is a covelently bound pair of fluorine atoms, much like pure oxygen is.

Fluoride is a salt made with fluorine that does not contain oxygen. Eg, "sodium fluoride": a sodium atom ionically attracted to a fluorine atom.

When oxygen is involved, you get "fluorite", and "fluorate", depending on the number of oxygen atoms involved.

Natural fluorites and fluorides occur in groundwater in far higher concentrations than are medicinally useful. Typically, the concentration of fluoride ion required to help stabilize the calcium phosphate complex found in teeth against acid breakdown is less than 1% in solution. (Toothpastes are usually sufficient to get the primary benefit of topical fluoride use, and usually contain .2% fluoride ion in the form of sodium fluoride by weight. Fluoridated water is higher, because the time the water is in contact with teeth while drinking is considerably shorter.) You can have way higher than this in naturally fluoride contaminated water supplies.

High levels of fluoride in drinking water causes abnormal tooth and bone formation, in a condition known as fluorisis. It causes discolored, and fragile teeth, as well as brittle bones that are especially prone to osteoporosis and other bone disorders. As such, the danger of overfluoridation is indeed quite real. However, you would have to regularly eat your toothpaste to have this condition. It is argued that children, the primary reported benefactors to fluoridated water operations, are notoriously bad at proper use of brushing and toothpaste use, and are at significantly higher risk of ingesting the toothpaste instead of spitting it out. In conjunction with fluoridated water, this results in a higher risk of permanent tooth deformities in adult tooth formation from the excess fluoride.

In areas with already dangerous levels of fluoride present in the drinking water from natural sources, the use of a filter to remove the excessive ion concentration is not only beneficial, but highly recommended, as it can indeed cause severe and debilitating tooth and bone problems.

The more you know!

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646099)

Thank you! That is what I wanted to know, and this is a perfect example of how dialogue is useful in disseminating knowledge rather than serving to make someone feel superior because they know something another doesn't. I get rather tired of a lot of the discourse here, from time to time. People need to realize ignorance is not the same as stupidity. So thank you for taking the time to educate me, not to mention the spelling lesson :)

Re:Now you did it... (2)

jeffb (2.718) (1189693) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646239)

When oxygen is involved, you get "fluorite", and "fluorate", depending on the number of oxygen atoms involved.

One small nit, from another non-chemist chemistry nerd: this never happens. It does with other halogens (bromine, chlorine, iodine), because they can all be oxidized, and in fact combined with oxygen, to make stable oxyhalide anions. Fluorine don't play that; forced into company with oxygen, fluorine does the oxidizing, and oxygen gives up an electron or two. The resulting oxygen difluoride isn't an acid anhydride; mixed with water, it gradually decomposes into hydrofluoric acid and oxygen, instead of making "hypofluorous acid" or whatever.

I'm stunned that you can find free fluorine, in quantities large enough to smell, occurring naturally on the Earth's surface. I'll have to find out more about this. Wonder if anybody's gotten poisoned from it...?

Re:Now you did it... (1)

wierd_w (1375923) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647039)

Me too! I didnt think something as electronegative as fluorine could remain in elementally pure form outside of a constantly irradiated supernova gas cloud, or similarly exotic environment. it reacts with pretty much everything! (and when it does, it doesnt let go!)

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647811)

no fluorine forms a _weak_ acid hydrofluoric acid, meaning that it only partially dissociates. this means that it can penetrate quite far.

a major problem with skin contact is that you do not notice immediately. even over the very short term it numbs nerves and so people can find theyve incurred a very serious chemical burn without it becoming painful for minutes.

it is so insidious as a pollutant because people cannot notice its effect at a moment to moment continuous level, only after an appreciable bioaccumulation do the effects become apparent.

because certain environments in the body are more alkaline the HF conjugate will tend to dissociate and then the F ion cannot leave and it tends to react with whatever it likes. Because it is so electronegative it tends to move depending on if there are more thermally dynamically favourable milieus. it also appears to accumulate in the lysosomes. in plants it is seen to accumulate in vacuoles.

CaF is one of the more stable arrangements and so this is a common destination, when F ends up deposited in bones. It eventually results in what we call Arthritis, although in 3rd world countries children develop the same symptoms before their 20's because of higher levels of F in their water, as in around 5x more than is typical in America, from 5 to 10 mg/L.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

rs79 (71822) | more than 2 years ago | (#40648035)

"I don't want to say she was a turn off, but even flourine won't react with her"

Re:Now you did it... (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646265)

Good to know. Thanks! However, how is the average family in a modern city to know if they're getting too little or too much fluoride? In America at least, all cities have their tap water metered for the correct ratio. Right?

Re:Now you did it... (2)

wierd_w (1375923) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647093)

an exact ratio is a poor measure for what is an appropriate fluoride ion intake on a per-person basis.

Different people absorb the ion at different rates upon ingestion, so while one person might develop fluorosis, another might not, despite having an identical diet, and an identical fluoride intake, even when measured in total milligram quantities.

This is part of why fluoridation of drinking water is often a hotbutton issue, even among health experts and chemists. On one hand, there is a clear health benefit for the impoverished, who are statistically less educated, and often have poorer oral hygiene regimens. For such persons and their children, oral fluorine solution in the drinking water may well be the only source of fluorine that they come into contact with, and may make up the major public health contribution against dental caries for those demographics.

It however, has a nastier side.

Fluoride ion is delivered as a salt, dissolved in the water. This salt concentration can be... Concentrated.. by such mundane activities as preparing a meal that makes use of tapwater, such as cooking pasta. As such, the dietary intake of fluoride ion delivered through the municipal water supply may inadvertantly hyper-fluoridate the population, despite being delivered at a low concentration. This is entirely before toothpastes and mouthwashes even enter the picture.

In other countries besides the US, the fluoride is added to milk products, or to salt, in an effort to combat this secondary exposure route that concentrates the ion prior to ingestion, but still have it readily applied to the lower income demographics of the society that would benefit most from the fluoridation.

Sadly, fluorosis does not present itself with a major identifiable diagnostic factor until AFTER it is too late. It simply is incorporated asymptotically into tooth and bone tissues as they develop, and if the concentrations in those tissues are too high, it manifests the disorder.

This incorporation into tooth structure prior to the eruption of primary teeth is known as the "Secondary" benefit of fluoride, and can only be obtained through ingestion, which is often hailed by fluoride promoters. Within certain tolerances, (which are dangerously close to the fluorosis inducing side of things) the incorporation of fluoride into the calcium phosphate complex that comprises tooth enamel makes it naturally harder and more resistant to abrasions and decay. A little fluoride is a good thing.

However, too much fluoride is a bad thing, ranging from "Merely cosmetic", to "pathalogical".

Many people have very mild to moderate tooth fluorosis and do not even know it. It causes white streaking and a pearlescent quality to tooth enamel in the mild to moderate case. Extreme fluorosis causes yellowed, mottled, deformed, and brittle teeth. In most cases, this mild fluorosis is benign, and is merely cosmetic. Your dentist wont even mention it.

If you are worried about your fluoride intake, I really dont know what to tell you, other than to suggest using bottled water instead of municipal tap water to prepare meals, if your water is fluoridated, and to avoid eating your toothpaste, and drinking fluoride containing mouthwashes.


didn't the NIH lower recommended fluoride levels? (1)

nido (102070) | more than 2 years ago | (#40652557)

And what about the guy who says that fluoride cuts up the enzymes that re-enamalize teeth?

Healthy teeth are made of calcium and phosphate, according to Gerard Judd's old site ( iirc - check Cavities are caused by acids which dissolve tooth enamel - these are either in foods (soda, etc), or produced by bacteria. Instead of dumping a highly reactive molecule in the water, one that contributes to osteoporosis in old women, wouldn't it be better to give kids the proper supplements in their school lunches?

Incidentally, I am totally disillusioned about oral hygiene products. Plain baking soda and salt works better for me than almost every brand of toothpaste I've ever purchased, except for one. Gerard Judd recommended bar soap on his site, and that was generally okay, but I'd have to double-brush (soap followed with baking soda) to get rid of the taste.

you seem genuine "just say kNOw" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40660005)

the least you can do as a sentient male is to investigate

look for the post that discusses Dr Phyllis Mullenix

search for a copy of the book the "aging factor" by Dr Yiamouyiannis

read the affidavit by Dr Albert schatz affidavit inventor of streptomycin and one of the scientists who overlooked the chilean introduction of water fluoridation.

read what Dr John Colquhoun who was Principal Dental Officer for Auckland, New Zealand, realised.

read this

notice that the Union of scientists at the EPA tried to challenge their own political masters. When they couldnt take it far enough they filled a grevience at the level of their own union and secured a supply of UNFLUORIDATED BOTTLED WATER FOR ALL EMPLOYEES. So they drink unfluoridated bottled water in their own offices.

find a MSDS on fluorosilicic acid and hydrogen fluoride.

Notice how many issues on an MSDS (like carcinogenicity and teratogenicity) are apparently NO DATA. they definately try to "technically tell the truth" to cover their arses. dont look and dont see.

its like the government denying that fire can burn, because theyre worried about the legal costs and impact on society.

if they admitted they knew anything about these attributes of such an important compound it would have to have a ZERO maximum contaminant level (used for catylitic cracking for oil refining).

how economically viable would electric cars be if the externalities of HF cracking and the subsequent disease in the population exposed to the exhaust become accounted for? its more toxic than lead and that was removed from petrol. what about using a different process to crack the hydrocarbons. sulphuric acid is less efficient but far safer, and it should be mandated to return to using it process.

that is all that it is about. keeping the maximum contaminant level above zero and preferably a couple of mg/L to allow them to get rid of it.

look and find out WHO said "THE SOLUTION TO POLUTION IS DILLUTION" and how recently/when they said it and what the context was!

find a list of the top 10 american corporations that use hydrogen fluoride or that sell hydroflusilicicacid.

  Hydrogenfluoride which forms in the stomach when you ingest fluorides is an highly bioavailable, and is bioaccumulative and concentrates in regions of the body.

See because Hydrofluoric acid is a "weak acid" meaning it doesnt fully dissociate it will pass through cell walls in this undissociated state. then at a much higher pH like the lysosome it will more (relatively speaking cause thats what pH is, a ratio of concentrations of H+ ions) dissociate and then the charged ion F- will not pass back out of the lysosome, this leads to a concentration gradient. It also tends to accumulate in other regions of cells. In plants it is shown to accumulate in chloroplasts. In mitochondria, with less efficient DNA repair mechanisms, the concentration is particularly harmful.

I doesnt just accumulate in calcium rich tissues but also accumulates due to pH gradients, eg the alkalinity of the cytoplasm followed the acidity of the lysosome.

yes it is highly abundant in the earths crust and its something that life has had to defend virtually for all time, but we should not be adding this toxic wet scrubber waste to our drinking water. It is ILLEGAL TO DUMP AT SEA.

why is it so low in breast milk, despite the intake of the mother? (to protect the infant!) why do salmon swim up stream! (to increase the health of their offpring, because the spawn are the most vulnerable. now that 1ppm is considered "drinking water" not "deadly toxic waste" companies are allowed to dump (at a calculated rate) their waste directly into rivers. read about the canadian salmon that are going extinct because of this practise. even levels around 0.3ppm cause significant incidence of birth defects and reduction in lifespan of the reduced number that do survive spawning. in otherwords it is teratogenic. even at very very low levels it causes a reduction in the health of offspring, over many generations it leads to infertility and eventual extinction. YES.

now look up the list of countries that are NOT putting it in their water. what is added to salt is different and is also not given to vulnerable infants and the elderly or sick. the reason why CaF_2 added to salt is different is that it has 1/50 the dissocation constant (it is 50 times more insoluble) in water as does NaF, and the fluorosilicic acid added to water results in 3 times higher levels in the urine, indicating more than 3 times more gets to the blood plasma than NaF.

now forget about the toxicity of fluorine .... consider that the wet scrubber mix contains significant amounts of heavy metals including POLONIUM !!!!

did you know that POLONIUM is so good for your teeth it makes them GLOW (wink)

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40647395)


Re:Now you did it... (2)

pegasustonans (589396) | more than 2 years ago | (#40649491)

Not a chemist either, just a chemistry nerd, but:

First. Its "Fluorine", not "flourine".

It's "it's" not "its" for 'it is,' or is it?

...Sorry, I'd never correct something like that, but the urge to nitpick a nitpick is just too great. My apologies to all normal people. :)

Re:Now you did it... (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | more than 2 years ago | (#40650225)

Natural fluorites and fluorides occur in groundwater in far higher concentrations than are medicinally useful. Typically, the concentration of fluoride ion required to help stabilize the calcium phosphate complex found in teeth against acid breakdown is less than 1% in solution. (Toothpastes are usually sufficient to get the primary benefit of topical fluoride use, and usually contain .2% fluoride ion in the form of sodium fluoride by weight. Fluoridated water is higher, because the time the water is in contact with teeth while drinking is considerably shorter.) You can have way higher than this in naturally fluoride contaminated water supplies.

You must have got your numbers seriously wrong. Of course the concentration is less than 1%, that would kill you rather quickly, you'd probably get a cardiac arrest. As far as I know, the concentration in treated water is somewhere around 1 ppm.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

TheDarkener (198348) | more than 2 years ago | (#40651403)

Fluorisis isn't the only danger to fluoride in the blood (and not used as a topical treatment) - The penial gland in the brain is the organ that fluoride collects the most in. It basically calcifies and prevents it from functioning. The penial gland is pivotal to the secretion of melatonin (and DMT when you sleep for those extra-real dream sequences) which affects sleeping patterns, the onset of puberty and seeing majesty (i.e. Trogdor). It's pretty important to our individual process of creativity and feeling good. Which I could see why so many conspiracies were formed in the way of 'poisioning the cities' water supplies'.

Black teeth and much worse, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40654085)

3 links so as to better ensure one works.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

retchdog (1319261) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645907)

neither; we're talking about fluoride and fluorine. i dunno how you ionized milled wheat.

back on topic: you can overdose on fluoride which causes all sorts of bad things. the therapeutic dose is close to the fluorosis dose, so the recommended levels of fluoride have been reduced over the past few decades. i wouldn't really be surprised if there were some serious problems with the original dosage in some areas, from whence all of these conspiracy theories...

There's a difference (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646225)

between free elemental fluorine and fluoride ions, of which the latter was what was present in your fluoridated toothpaste and water. Elemental fluorine is amazingly reactive and toxic. As a result of an aerospace technology malfunction, I once saw a cloud of free fluorine drifting up a slope, setting fire to the bushes as it moved.

Fluoride ions, not so much in therapeutic concentrations. Your teeth won't turn black, and you have a better chance of keeping your natural teeth until you die than if you had not had the fluoride ion toothpaste and water. It's not a communist conspiracy, it's just plain old boring science and epidimology.

if you are really a scientist and not a manager... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40658543)

then you really owe it to yourself to become more informed.

the fluorine ions in water or your stomach or blood plasma are identically as reactive as "elemental fluorine" which is monoatomic as a gas.

the difference is only the ionisation state. simply being dilute has zilch to do with the reactivity. a F- ion in your blood plasma will bond with just about anything, until there is a more thermodynamically favourable niche. mostly in your bones and joints, but almost anything it touches it damages, semipermanently, requiring an energy and resource expensive and unnecessary catabolism and anabolism, at best.

imagine taking an incredibly sophisticated machine (your body) with nanometer scale machinery consisting of interlocking intricate bending and dynamically reshaping enzymes... and pouring a bunch of diamond grit into the works. fluorine forms harder bonds so when an enzyme attempts to act on a molecule with a substituted F it often breaks the enzyme rather than the molecule.

your teeth will turn BLACK if you have water over 4mg/L. but that will be the least of your worries, as you'll also prematurely age, and most likely be bed ridden with painful bone deformities spurs and calcification (really fluorification, as it is the F- ion that substitutes for hydroxyl in calcium hydroxyapatite in the bone). thats just the start, there are an extremely long list of nasty things that Fluorine ions do to your body in sufficient concentration.

when you intake more than you can excrete its only a matter of time. even bioaccumulation of 1mg/day is going to be 3.6 grams in 10years and in 40years you'll have a greatly increased risk of arthritis, cardiovascular disease (why do you think arteries harden, hint F and Ca in the blood form insoluble CaF_2 ).

it form hydrofluoric acid in the stomach and this corrodes the gut. it damages the immune system and is the number one cause of asthma, because it makes neutrophiles hyperresponsive. it damages RNA production which will decrease your bodies ability to repair itself. it depletes glutathione which is the most important antioxidant in the body and brain. it damages the kidneys. it concentrates in mitochondria and impairs their function. it also accumulates in lysosomes which is an important part of how it damages the thyroid, as the disassembly of ThyroGlobulin replete with conjugated iodo substituted tyrosine groups needs to be proteolytically digested in a lysosome to yield the T4 and also some T3.

it also substitutes on phenyl rings and then they inhibit Deiodinase enzymes (such as type II predominantly in the liver, which is how most T3 is made) and also the other types decreasing the ability to either increase arousal (by turning T4 into T3) or to decrease and wind down (by turning T3 or rT3 into T2).

it inhibits cholinesterase making it harder to relax. it changes the ratio of nucleotides, inhibiting Thymidine Synthase decreasing dTMP and impairing DNA repair and synthesis, but increasing ATP.

it inhibits countless other enzymes and systems in the body, including two of the most important enzymes for the brain, tryptophan hydroxylase and tyrosine hydroxylase.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646249)

So..... instead of assuming that everyone knows the dangers, please educate me. That's an honest request actually.

You can ignore the conspiracy idiots.

The conspiracy theory centers around fluoride being an industrial waste product... so presumably somebody faked the bone/dental tests so that water companies would pay them to haul away their trash (fluoride).

"Fluoride poisoning" is a real condition, but you need far more than you would get in tap water. In fact "Water Intoxication" is a real condition too, but nobody would claim we don't need to drink water (but then again: [] ).

Re:Now you did it... (1)

rs79 (71822) | more than 2 years ago | (#40648057)

Ectually, flourine molecules have a strategic role in their place in some psych meds. All it takes is one schizophrenic to find this out and overnight there's tens of thousands of anti-flouride crusaders on facebook.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 2 years ago | (#40647243)

Are we talking about flourine or flouride? I'm 54 (and no chemist so I don't know the difference, please excuse me

Don't let that stop you from having extreme and strongly held opinions.

It certainly doesn't prevent anyone else.

Re:Now you did it... (1)

idji (984038) | more than 2 years ago | (#40648131)

elemental Fluorine (found as F2) is nasty, it is so reactive it can eat/etch/oxidate glass and most metals. Just think about how noxious chlorine is, and it is MUCH worse and more toxic
It is most fascinating, that the most oxidative (more powerful than anything else at stealing 1 electron, except perhaps PtF6-) substance we know is found in nature in this special environment. Nature was almost always there before us, including natural nuclear reactors in Gabon. Just think about how special elemental oxygen is in the universe. It is generally believed it can only be found where life has produced it - so there will be a massive frenzy if they detect elemental oxygen in the atmosphere of an exoplanet. And now we have found something more oxidative than oxygen found in it's elemental state.

You seem to be genuine, here is a genuine answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40657173)

unfortunately there are more shills than genuine posters. (dont want to think about the useful idiots who are doing everything they can to silence a rational debate by their cries of "but but my favourite medicodrama had an episode where everyone was luling at the the smelly hippy mother who was hysterical about the "fluoride vitamin" tablets/varnish etc its obviously SAFEnEFFECTIVEtm cause my Medicodrama told me so) pure insult to the intelligence.

I suggest you consider the statement of "WHY EPA HEADQUARTERS UNION OF SCIENTISTS

btw this link is hosted at the actual website

There is the Affidavit of Dr Albert Schatz nobel prize winner and discoverer of Streptomycin

There is some of the history of American legal action, which was never found in favour of humans in America, although it was in Germany where the water is _not_ fluoridated today.

then there is the study done by Dr Phyllis Mullenix, one of the first scientists to use computer automated animal behaviour analysis. she wrote the software herself and designed the system, and then applied it while she worked at the Forsyth research institute.

americancentrisim (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40657215)

this whole discussion is a horrible case of americancentrisim. because americans do it it

a) must be correct ... in fact
b) must be universal, everyone does it ... (dont they? no most of the rest of the world does not fluoridate, and most of china, india, africa and parts of south america are actively removing it)
c) hey i do it and im FINE(tm) ... although hey im a dumb, obese, diabetic and demented american with cancer .. so it must be good for my kids. they seem fine too, theyre only adhd, asthmatic and suffering from circadian disruption/ and wont/dont sleep until 3am... but they want to really.. theyre having fun making themselves sick

Re:Now you did it... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40646005)

Many of you need to goto some of the stupider places on the net to fully apreciate the above.

We don't really see too many of these crazies here on slashdot. thank god.

I hope they never find this place. Every conversation will be goverment conspiracy, religious nuttitude, and space aliens. It's bad. real bad. in a comic way.

Fluoridated rocks? (2)

circletimessquare (444983) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645573)

that's just the way a hardcore commie works []

Wait, they only recently proved this? (1)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 2 years ago | (#40645993)

I remember my geology professor telling us this exact thing back in the 80's. Was College level geology professors teaching as fact something that was only a theory?

Why could they not have ran the same tests? Gas Chromatagraphs existed back then, so setting it up to crush a sample and then test the gasses released would have been trivial.

Re:Wait, they only recently proved this? (1)

jeffb (2.718) (1189693) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646257)

I was all set to make a snarky comment about what free fluorine would do to your stationary phase (not to mention the tube containing it), but by golly, they'd long since figured out how to deal with that [] , too.

containers for F2 storage. (1)

jasontheking (124650) | more than 2 years ago | (#40646775)

according to [] , its pretty difficult to make a container to store pure F2 gas, maybe this is a way to at least transport it, assuming you have enough of the rock, or can make more of it.

Also, you smelt it? whats the safe distance you can get near this stuff (before/after you crush it) without doing nasty damage to yourself.

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