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Richard Stallman Speaks About UEFI

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the i-wonder-what-he'll-say dept.

DRM 549

An anonymous reader writes "Despite weaknesses in the Linux-hostile 'secure boot' mechanism, both Fedora and Ubuntu decided to facilitate it, by essentially adopting two different approaches. Richard Stallman has finally spoken out on this subject. He notes that 'if the user doesn't control the keys, then it's a kind of shackle, and that would be true no matter what system it is.' He says, 'Microsoft demands that ARM computers sold for Windows 8 be set up so that the user cannot change the keys; in other words, turn it into restricted boot.' Stallman adds that 'this is not a security feature. This is abuse of the users. I think it ought to be illegal.'"

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Let me guess... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40680963)

He doesn't like it.
But he does like greasy fries.

Re:Let me guess... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681049)

Oh look, an ad hominem agains Richard Stallman. Never seen that before.

Shackles (5, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681061)

If Microsoft got what it demands, that ARM devices that runs Win 8 be permanently locked, then the only option that I have, as a consumer, is to NOT BUY THAT DEVICE
 
No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial
 

Re:Shackles (5, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681099)

Of course, the salesdroids would point the finger squarely at ARM, should the sales numbers not measure up.

Voting with your wallet only works correctly if the fallout falls in the right place.

Re:Shackles (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681207)

I wonder if MS blames the failure of Windows Phone on Nokia?

Re:Shackles (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681367)

There is almost certainly a contingent that runs this direction. It's too easy in computing to pass the buck and Microsoft, IBM, et. al. have always been complicit. Linux, despite it's warts, very rarely blames the hardware, which is something worth considering in this case, my not being a GPL guy at all.

Re:Shackles (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681413)

ARM has nothing to do with this. The security bits are designed by the CPU manufacturer not ARM (although ARM is moving to standardize this area). Regardless, the security hardware can be used in various ways. It can protect the user's interest or the OS designer's interests. Guess which way Microsoft is going to use it.

Personally, I'll never purchase a device that is boot-locked. I'm the geek here so members of my family and friends that listen to reason won't either.

Windows RT-exclusive application (3, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681183)

the only option that I have, as a consumer, is to NOT BUY THAT DEVICE

There is no way to run Windows RT applications if you do NOT BUY THAT DEVICE. What do you recommend for people whose job involves running a Windows RT-exclusive application? Or do you expect such applications not to exist?

No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial

Tell that to anybody who has ever bought a video game console.

Re:Windows RT-exclusive application (1)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681267)

No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial

Tell that to anybody who has ever bought a video game console

 
Believe it or not, not one single red cent of mine was ever used to purchase video game console
 

Re:Windows RT-exclusive application (4, Interesting)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681343)

Buy an x86 tablet or ultrabook with a secureboot implementation that is required to be unlocked. The only reason the ARM based tablets will have a locked boot loader is that they will be sold through telco's that demand the lockdown in order to sell or support the devices.

Re:Windows RT-exclusive application (2)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681387)

Buy an x86 tablet or ultrabook with a secureboot implementation that is required to be unlocked.

Will these be able to efficiently emulate applications distributed in the form of ARM machine code? That's what I meant by "Windows RT-exclusive". For example, someone who reviews Windows RT apps for a living would need to run Windows RT apps.

Re:Windows RT-exclusive application (2)

afidel (530433) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681463)

I don't believe there are going to be any RT native apps other than Office, RT will only run Metro apps.

Re:Windows RT-exclusive application (4, Informative)

cbhacking (979169) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681405)

Or do you expect such applications not to exist?

I'd be quite surprised to see one. The only API that Microsoft allows third-party developers to use on Windows RT is WinRT (well, and web apps of course). Although it is possible to write native apps using WinRT, the dev tools make it very easy to compile those apps for multiple architectures (ARM for Windows RT, x86 and x64 for "normal" Win8). So, unless somebody intentionally limits their market share to Windows RT only, for absolutely no benefit to themselves, I really don't expect to see Windows RT-exclusive apps at all.

Besides, most people will probably write WinRT (Metro-style) apps using a managed language, like C# or Javascript. That gets you compatibility with both Win8 and Windows RT without even the trivial hassle of recompiling.

Re:Shackles (4, Interesting)

kandresen (712861) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681237)

It is even worse than that - if it is wont be possible to change the certificate on a machine and that certificate get compromized, then it means there is no security anymore neither... The device is now junk after maybe one month of owning it. You need a new device regardless. And dont tell me you have not heard of the certificates for BlueRay and so on being compromised...

The alternative - Microsoft can remotely update the certificate, but that also mean any remote attacker who break the key can change it... Again, no security... The only way to make it secure in the long run is to allow users change the key when needed.

The elephant in the discussion (5, Insightful)

recoiledsnake (879048) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681315)

If Microsoft got what it demands, that ARM devices that runs Win 8 be permanently locked, then the only option that I have, as a consumer, is to NOT BUY THAT DEVICE

No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial

The elephant in the discussion is the iPad, an ARM based device with a locked bootloade. No one wants to talk about making it illegal, only Windows RT tablets must be outlawed, Apple is free to do whatever they want. Say you bought an iPad on Slashdot, automatically get +5 for not choosing a PC with Windows. But guess what? Apple bans Firefox from the iPad while you can even install Linux on a PC.

Re:The elephant in the discussion (2)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681335)

No-one wants to pay the Apple tax so they can run Linux on an iPad. Windows tablets would be the cheap end of the market where installing another OS is a sane option... except Microsoft are prohibiting that.

Re:The elephant in the discussion (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681371)

If Microsoft got what it demands, that ARM devices that runs Win 8 be permanently locked, then the only option that I have, as a consumer, is to NOT BUY THAT DEVICE

No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial

The elephant in the discussion is the iPad, an ARM based device with a locked bootloade. No one wants to talk about making it illegal, only Windows RT tablets must be outlawed, Apple is free to do whatever they want. Say you bought an iPad on Slashdot, automatically get +5 for not choosing a PC with Windows. But guess what? Apple bans Firefox from the iPad while you can even install Linux on a PC.

And if the Windows RT device is made by Microsoft themselves, they are free to lock it down howerver they like, just as Apple does with its iPads. But since when does Microsoft get to lock down at the hardware level what software can or can't run on devices created by companies they don't, e.g., Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.?

Re:The elephant in the discussion (1)

mystikkman (1487801) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681419)

If Microsoft got what it demands, that ARM devices that runs Win 8 be permanently locked, then the only option that I have, as a consumer, is to NOT BUY THAT DEVICE

No point of supporting dictatorial regime, be it political dictatorial, or hardware dictatorial

The elephant in the discussion is the iPad, an ARM based device with a locked bootloade. No one wants to talk about making it illegal, only Windows RT tablets must be outlawed, Apple is free to do whatever they want. Say you bought an iPad on Slashdot, automatically get +5 for not choosing a PC with Windows. But guess what? Apple bans Firefox from the iPad while you can even install Linux on a PC.

And if the Windows RT device is made by Microsoft themselves, they are free to lock it down howerver they like, just as Apple does with its iPads. But since when does Microsoft get to lock down at the hardware level what software can or can't run on devices created by companies they don't, e.g., Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.?

How does the difference help the user? In fact it hurts hardware choice because it encourages companies to make their own hardware instead of an OS that supports multiple OEMs. Such companies won't be able to subsidize hardware based on software or media purchases like the Kindle Fire or Nook can. Nightmare scenario, Apple and MS each take 50% of the market and lock everything else out, pointing to the other as a proof that they're not a monopoly.

Copyright allows the lockdown (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681459)

But since when does Microsoft get to lock down at the hardware level what software can or can't run on devices created by companies they don't, e.g., Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.?

Microsoft does so with copyright. Manufacturers that refuse the lockdown aren't licensed to make and distribute copies of Windows RT.

Re:The elephant in the discussion (2)

jd2112 (1535857) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681375)

Where have you been lately? On Slashdot Apple is the new Microsoft.

Re:The elephant in the discussion (1)

mystikkman (1487801) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681443)

I was talking about how the interview didn't talk about Apple and the iPad at all, only about ARM based devices running Windows 8. The same with the Firefox rant about browser choice on Windows RT.

Re:Shackles (2)

dissy (172727) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681323)

What's more, when Windows pukes on itself and the non-power user takes it to "my computer friend" who proceeds to want nothing more to do with it since no rescue discs will work... They are gunna be pissed.

If so much as a hint for a recommendation on their next machine is mentioned, said computer geek will strongly say anything but this.

It's not just us who will end up not buying the things but everyone else, as people tend to remember getting burned on a bad purchase.
This is the very market Microsoft is targeting these low end tablet wanna-be systems to. Once people start getting burned in their purchase, word will spread and they will have even more hostility at them than they already do.

Although I doubt they care about that last point, evidenced by the fact they are even entertaining the idea.

Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (4, Interesting)

Teresita (982888) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681005)

All those Win8 machines people are going to kick to the curb, and places like RE-PC won't even be able to make sell them as "boot only" boxes ready for another OS because the boot is locked down at the hardware level.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (3, Insightful)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681073)

It only applies to ARM devices, not all PCs.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (2)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681115)

You say that like they cannot possibly be the same thing.

PC these days doesn't mean x86-based.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681219)

You say that like they cannot possibly be the same thing.

No he didn't, he said ARM devices are "not all PCs." Read better.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (3, Insightful)

cmat (152027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681293)

I think the implication is that should Microsoft choose to not support x86 devices, then ARM devices may be "all PCs" that can run Windows 8.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681141)

...for now. Don't think MS isn't salivating at the prospect of locking in all x86 and ARM devices forever that ship with any version of Windows. You'd be a fool to believe otherwise.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681181)

Then why haven't they done it? If they wanted to do it and could do it then they would have done it, but the fact is that would violate anti-trust law. In the tablet/smartphone market it is generally accepted that systems are sold as devices, hardware built for specific software. MS' early offerings in the tablet space didn't have these restrictions but the world changed and while MS is late to the party they are following the trend laid out by companies like Apple.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681255)

Then why haven't they done it?

Boil the frog slowly, son. Boil him slowly.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (4, Interesting)

shutdown -p now (807394) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681455)

There are legal reasons for the present arrangement. When Microsoft was investigated for antitrust in the past, the scope of its monopoly was defined in the trial as "Intel based personal computers". Hence locking down Intel will likely trigger another round, in EU if not in US. On ARM, Apple is king, so if it's good for them, it's good for MS.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (4, Insightful)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681097)

Why not? There's no hardware lock preventing them, turn SecureBoot off and you're good to go. Or if you want to leave SecureBoot on use an OS from a vendor that provides keys. Or if you want to use an OS that doesn't provide keys yet still want SecureBoot on then get a key from a CA like Verisign.
I don't see what the problem is here.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681163)

Yeah, this will be great you naive fool right up until the time x86 boards stop shipping with secure boot disableable and when Verisign stops selling keys for less than 99,000 dollars for "security" reasons. The funny thing is the hackers will just find a way to infect your machine around this scheme and the consumers will be left holding the bag. Again. I hope the EU steps in and brings MS to their knees.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (-1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681199)

They can't do that, it would be a violation of anti-trust violations, you naive fool :P

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681229)

obviously i meant anti-trust regulations

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681263)

Not sure if stupid...or trying to be ironic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681271)

Somebody doiwnmod this ignorant son of a nigger. He's claerly a microsfot shill. Micro$oft with a dollar sign and bill gaets is lucutis of borg you gay fucking santorum drinkers

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (-1)

exomondo (1725132) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681307)

Sorry douchebag, facts are facts but i suppose if you have so much pent up irrational hatred and anger then crying 'shill' is all you're capable of :P

Re:Sucks to be a used PC reseller... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681277)

Yeah, this will be great you naive fool right up until the time x86 boards stop shipping with secure boot disableable and when Verisign stops selling keys for less than 99,000 dollars for "security" reasons.

Nah because Microsoft is already dead thanks to Metro so everyone will use OSX and Apple are already locking that down like iOS so all users will be at the mercy of the Geniuses! Seriously if you're going to come up with a retarded conspiracy theory because that's the only way to give your point any validity at least come up with an entertaining one.

Crippled Hardware (5, Insightful)

Archangel Michael (180766) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681007)

The Hardware is crippled for the sake of Microsoft. Period.

Secure boot is Microsoft's attempt to maintain computer OS market share as their influences is being stripped away by the likes of Google (Android) and Apple (iOS). With HTML5 on the way, we will have WEB based applications that rival desktop versions, and run on ANY device. The OS is just a layer to get to where the real work gets done, information exchange.

AND the worst part is, secure boot doesn't actually fix the problem it pretends it solves. It can't. This is the whole DRM of DVD's and BluRay all over again. Look at how well that is working out.

DRM is broken by design.

Re:Crippled Hardware (5, Informative)

Altanar (56809) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681071)

Don't like it? Go into your BIOS and turn it off. The specification mandates that it have a disable option. How hard is it to disable? Take a look at this image: http://imgur.com/QW1Pp [imgur.com]

Re:Crippled Hardware (1)

andrew3 (2250992) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681093)

Don't like it? Go into your BIOS and turn it off.

Most computer users don't know what a BIOS even is, let alone how to get into it.

Re:Crippled Hardware (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681147)

If you don't know what a BIOS is, you probably shouldn't be changing what OS you're using.

Re:Crippled Hardware (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681231)

Yeah, and it makes sense to put another roadblock in the way to them learning... Idiot.

Re:Crippled Hardware (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681275)

Yeah, it's not like those aren't two completely different things right, moron? You actually make the case for not having secure boot. The BIOS is a very sensitive area on the machine and end users have no business fiddling with it. The OS on the other hand especially with modern install methods is just pop CD in and click "Next" a few times.

Re:Crippled Hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681151)

To be fair, most users don't know what an OS is either.

Re:Crippled Hardware (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681095)

Don't like it? Go into your BIOS and turn it off. The specification mandates that it have a disable option.

Yeah, and?

Windows 9 will probably make 'Windows Lockin' mandatory on x86 as it does on ARM, and it dramatically increases the difficulty of installing an alternate OS. No more booting Linux from CD and installing without even touching the BIOS.

Re:Crippled Hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681253)

And when that happens, you will have a good reason to get upset. Until then it's just speculation.

Re:Crippled Hardware (5, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681287)

And when that happens, you will have a good reason to get upset. Until then it's just speculation.

Yes, you're right. Microsoft would never, ever even think of locking all other operating systems out of the PC market.

How could I possibly have been so stupid?

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the day you're locked out of all new PC hardware is a day too late to get upset about it.

Re:Crippled Hardware (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681385)

Well go ahead and froth in the mouth about something that might possibly happen in some version of the future then. No wonder no one takes slashdotters seriously.

Re:Crippled Hardware (5, Interesting)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681133)

So when you get your MB (made in China), with a BIOS apparently coded in a rural part of China (have you seen BIOS lately?), and find it doesn't let you disable it...

What, exactly, is your recourse?

Coreboot [coreboot.org] is the only answer, and that's not going to happen while Microsoft (and probably Apple as well) isn't bankrupt.

Re:Crippled Hardware (1)

oakgrove (845019) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681173)

How do you propose documenting that for new users that want to try out Linux but aren't comfortable messing around in their BIOS? Getting them to figure out what motherboard/BIOS version they have so you can send them just the right screenshot?

Also to select boot medium (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681341)

Getting them to figure out what motherboard/BIOS version they have so you can send them just the right screenshot?

I thought you already had to do that to get the machine to boot from a CD or USB flash drive instead of the hard drive. At least Secure Boot will probably be called "Secure Boot" in all English-speaking markets.

Re:Also to select boot medium (2)

Teresita (982888) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681453)

One of my four boxes won't boot from the HD, whether it has XP or Ubuntu or even DOS on it. I settled for XP, and boot Grub from a floppy disk to kick start it. Just maybe, since they don't even make floppies anymore, yet BIOSes retain a boot from floppy option as a legacy, this will be a overlooked backdoor through Secure Boot. Microsoft can't very well say the black hats are distributing their malware through snail mail on floppies.

Re:Crippled Hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681333)

On ARM devices, M$ is requiring that there be NO way to turn it off.

Only on x86 will there be an option to turn it off. This should be a sufficient hurdle to keep most folks stuck on windows, even on x86, but on ARM, M$ is taking no chances.

Re:Crippled Hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681477)

So if you want to dual-boot will you have to change that BIOS setting each time?

Re:Crippled Hardware (5, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681329)

AND the worst part is, secure boot doesn't actually fix the problem it pretends it solves. It can't. This is the whole DRM of DVD's and BluRay all over again. Look at how well that is working out. DRM is broken by design.

That depends on what problem it is you think it pretends to solve. A computer made to only run signed code doesn't have the same fundamental weakness as DRM has where the private key has to be somewhere to decrypt it, nobody but Microsoft is going to have Microsoft's private signing key and unless they give you that option disabling the signature check is going to be extremely hard. Getting any other code to run - except user space code in Win8's application sandbox - will be as hard as cracking the Xbox360 or the PS3. I suspect that with a "boiling the frog" strategy the current document said people MUST be able to disable it on x86, the next one will say MAY and with a nudge and a wink to the OEMs it's going to end up at MAY NOT.

Re:Crippled Hardware (1)

sunderland56 (621843) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681425)

And Apple's hardware is crippled for the sake of Apple software. Not news.

It's the free market economy: manufacturers are free to make UEFI machines, or not make them. Consumers are free to buy them, or not buy them. This is supposedly a democracy - having the government interfere in which boot loaders are acceptable and which ones are not is a path we probably don't want to follow.

You know what you're getting (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681009)

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Re:You know what you're getting (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681029)

And the award for the first poster trotting out this same old cop out goes to...

The price of being free to run what code you want on your own device is eternal vigilance.

Re:You know what you're getting (5, Insightful)

andrew3 (2250992) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681043)

It's not that simple. Many users don't know what UEFI or Restricted Boot are. If they see a Certified for Windows 8 logo on a computer when they're buying it, they don't know that means extra restrictions for them.

Not everybody cares about computers, which is why Restricted Boot is so bad.

Re:You know what you're getting (1)

bri_n1 (651476) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681169)

Many users don't know what UEFI or Restricted Boot are.

Then what are the odds that those users will ever want to install another OS besides Windows?

Re:You know what you're getting (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681187)

It depends on what restrictions are added later. Most people don't realize how important their freedom is until after it's gone.

Re:You know what you're getting (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681317)

Then what are the odds that those users will ever want to install another OS besides Windows?

Linux install today: put the CD in the drive, boot up, select 'install', click 'OK' a couple of times. There's rarely any need to touch the BIOS.

Re:You know what you're getting (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681393)

In fact, it is that simple. But, Linux Loving Faggots like you need to complicate and inflate the issue to make Microsoft bashing points. Fuck you, the rest of us know your pathetic little game.

I would have had first post! (5, Funny)

theswimmingbird (1746180) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681017)

But I couldn't boot into my OS.

The Right To Read (5, Informative)

andrew3 (2250992) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681021)

Richard's story, The Right To Read [gnu.org] , has already sort of predicted this move.

But not only were [free operating systems] illegal, like debuggers—you could not install one if you had one, without knowing your computer's root password. And neither the FBI nor Microsoft Support would tell you that.

Despite what people say about Restricted Boot, it opens up the world of computers to a whole new set of attacks... by megacorporations like Microsoft.

Re:The Right To Read (5, Interesting)

Squiddie (1942230) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681175)

The worst part about rms is that all his fears always come true.

Re:The Right To Read (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681233)

Ain't that the truth. The man is a veritable profit. How many predictions has he made? Has he ever been wrong and if he has, what's his percentage?

Re:The Right To Read (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681473)

The man is a veritable profit

Actually he seems to dislike that particular motive :P

Re:The Right To Read (5, Funny)

styrotech (136124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681337)

That's only because the bad guys look at what he fears for some good ideas.

Now if only RMS had've patented his ideas :)

Re:The Right To Read (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681417)

The worst part about rms is that all his fears always come true.

No, he hasn't died horribly in a bathing accident yet.

How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681063)

"'if the user doesn't control the keys, then it's a kind of shackle"

How? Is not the user free to make the decision whether or not to purchase the product? Yes he is. At least until Obama nationalizes computer manufacturing that is...

The user therefore is by definition in control of the keys.

God I hate collectivists. Keep your statist hands off of my money thank you very much.

Re:How? (2)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681103)

How? Is not the user free to make the decision whether or not to purchase the product? Yes he is.

Why, yes. Instead of buying a $50 'made for Windows' motherboard they'll be able to buy a $1000 'made for Linux' motherboard with is exactly the same hardware with the 'Windows Lockin' disabled.

That's sort of already the situation with phones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681137)

You can buy a locked cell phone for "$50" with a 2-year service commitment at $60/month, or the same phone unlocked for $500. The unlocked phone is of course a much better deal most of the time. The "$50" one costs you $1000+ in service fees that you can't turn to another vendor for.

Re:That's sort of already the situation with phone (0)

fredprado (2569351) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681203)

You pay U$ 50 plus service. You are an idiot if you think the difference, or at least a good part of it, isn't included in the service fees. Cellphone manufacturers are not exactly charity foundations.

Re:That's sort of already the situation with phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681289)

you're an idiot who can't read.

Re:That's sort of already the situation with phone (0)

fredprado (2569351) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681353)

I can read well, thank you. I can also do math, which you obviously can't.

No discount for bringing your own phone (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681225)

You can buy a locked cell phone for "$50" with a 2-year service commitment at $60/month, or the same phone unlocked for $500. The unlocked phone is of course a much better deal most of the time.

Unless the month-to-month service is also $60 per month.

Re:How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681205)

And your point then is what?

What part of 'free market' do you not understand?

What you are complaining about is called monopolistic corporatism or more clearly corporate cronyism, and this is fostered by the state. In a truly free market it is the best product that succeeds. Feh.

Yes, keep voting for the green party, free healthcare and motherboards for everyone!

Re:How? (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681299)

And your point then is what?

Ah, you're a loon. That explains it.

Re:How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681471)

It's like shooting fish in a barrel with you lot isn't it.

In the real world, when your argument devolves to "you are a loon", you lose.

Thanks for playing.

Re:How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681123)

'if the user doesn't control the keys, then it's a kind of shackle

How? Is not the user free to make the decision whether or not to purchase the product? Yes he is.

Is this supposed to be funny? Using the shackle metaphor, surely you agree that a user could buy something that also happened to come with a shackle. Now imagine use of the product that he actually wanted necessitated putting the shackle on as well. Just because he put the shackle on willingly doesn't make it any less a shackle.

Why not just sell the device without the restriction at all? Hopefully you aren't naive enough to think this is actually going to stop hackers from doing their dirty work. They'll just find another way in and you'll be left with a worthless lump to throw in the landfill in a couple of years when Windows 9 isn't available for your Windows RT tablet. So you'll be stuck with an old version of IE that will progressively stop rendering web pages well and an insecure and out of date security mechanism. Sounds terrible to me.

Re:How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681239)

"Why not just sell the device without the restriction at all?"

You may sell your device any way you like.

Are you trying to make some kind of point, because you have failed to do so.

Slashdot with no computer (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681241)

Is not the user free to make the decision whether or not to purchase the product?

Sure, one is free to choose not to buy a computer with Restricted Boot. Once all computers sold to the general public come with Restricted Boot, one is free to choose not to buy a computer at all. But without a computer, how would one participate in Slashdot?

Re:Slashdot with no computer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681301)

"Once all computers sold to the general public come with Restricted Boot"

And this is the root of the problem, no pun intended.

When will this be? What forces upon society are there that can create such conditions I ask? Who has this power?

What are YOU willing to do to preserve the free market?

Here's a clue: The Green Party is the wrong answer.

How long is a piece of string? Who is John Galt?

Re:How? (3, Interesting)

cmat (152027) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681269)

Any time I see a response to the tune of "... so and so is free to make a choice about such and such", I also think that there is no such thing as "free to choose" if one does not/can not/will not understand the finer details involved in that choice.

I can only freely choose to not buy this if I understand what does and does not work and how it can/will impact me. Most typical computer purchases are not made with this level of understanding.

Re:How? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681365)

Caveat emptor

Windows 8 on Arm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681083)

Arm is a great platform that Windows has so far not screwed up.

Windows 8 will hopefully be swan song of the retarded gang in Redmond.

Agree with Stallman on this. (4, Insightful)

goruka (1721094) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681127)

Manufacturers should be free to do whathever they want with the devices they create. If they want to lock them, fine. If they want to lock them because a carrier asks? fine, lock it for that carrier or ignore the carrier. It's still their choice
I also can understand hardware requirements for a licensed OS, such a certain button layout, screen resolution, etc. Those make sense and ensure it runs as intended. The same way, Microsoft can make their own devices and lock them and it's their choice.
But manufacturers being forced by to lock the devices by the mobile OS supplier? That's abuse!. It's Microsoft abusing their desktop PC monopoly power, patents, etc. against the OEMs. What is MS afraid of, people installing Android or Ubuntu on their newly acquired devices?

Re:Agree with Stallman on this. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681217)

Manufacturers should be free to do whathever they want with the devices they create.

This is prima facie absurd. Should they be able to use lead paint too? There always have to be limits on how products are made for society to function. What is wrong with allowing the board to boot another OS? The manufacturer still made the same amount of money. The hackers won't be slowed down for long by secure boot. It is a scheme to enrich Microsoft and rob consumers. Have fun supporting it.

I also can understand hardware requirements for a licensed OS, such a certain button layout, screen resolution, etc. Those make sense and ensure it runs as intended.

You are trying to conflate secure boot to having buttons in a certain arrangement? Yep, I'm definitely on Slashdot tonight.

Re:Agree with Stallman on this. (1)

c0lo (1497653) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681415)

Manufacturers should be free to do whathever they want with the devices they create.

There always have to be limits on how products are made for society to function. What is wrong with allowing the board to boot another OS?

Well... you'd better start telling about these limits to Sony, with "Other OS" still being locked. (not that I support a BIOS lock, but just pointing that "fair" is not an attribute of the today's world... some/many times, not even "legal" is such attribute).

Re:Agree with Stallman on this. (3, Interesting)

fredprado (2569351) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681243)

But as soon as you let manufacturers do as they wish with the devices they sell that is the natural progression. That is why in many countries in the world the buyer have rights that conflict with this idea. Here in Brazil, for example it is illegal to lock cellphone devices to specific carriers, for example, and personally I think that is right. Once you buy something you should be entitled to do whatever you wish with it.

Okay. Today it's news... (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681157)

Quoting myself [slashdot.org] , from *yesterday*:

Yeah, and RMS was talking non-sense yesterday. What is the world coming to ...

Yesterday? I'm a big fan of RMS - since before the beard - but the day he doesn't talk non-sense will be news.

You're welcome.

S/BOOT is about taking people's freedom (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681193)

Let me explain ... me I just bought an wireless access point ... and I have no intention at all of using it
as an access point. I want a device with a set of excellent antenna's, great rx sensitivity and it has to
have monitor mode so I can capture raw 802.11 frames and I have to be able to make it send arbitrary
802.11 frames as well.

Yeah I found a great little device for doing just that ;-)

Thankfully this device is not locked down with a secure boot loader !!! I did have to open it up and access
the serial port on the board to load dd-wrt (an alternative linux distribution for wifi routers) but it was *easy*
and the chipset it has is a.) linux supported and b.) the chipset and the linux driver support monitoring
and injection.

IF SECURE BOOT COMES AROUND WE WONT BE ABLE TO DO THAT ANYMORE!!

If the router had had a secure boot scheme I would have had to first work hard on getting around that. JTAG.
Glitching, and in a few years from now even these techniques might not work anymore. In FACT ... the ARM
chips do have a jtag interface but now there's SECURE MONITOR MODE for jtag meaning you have to first
do a cryptographic challenge/response sequence before you get access to the chip via JTAG.

WTF!! I FUCKING OWN THIS BOX WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO KEEP ME FROM USING IT AS I SEE FIT, YOU SCUM!!

Anyhow here's the game plan that's been decided in the back room .... There will be secure boot on commodity hardware.
Vendors who are in the club will get their code signed easily. For a while small fries will also get their code signed for a
fee. The consumer will have the impression that there is still choice, Linux is not going to go away tomorrow, a signed and
authorized kernel will be available.

However, you will find that you're going to be locked out more and more out of your system. At some point you will not be sure
anymore what is running in the background and what backdoors are introduced into the system. You will have to trust a kernel
image that is given to you encrypted and that may contain all sorts of things.

It's the future they want. The ability to access/erase/modify your data, activate your microphones and video cameras, prevent you
from doing anything they don't want you to. Sure there will be exploits for a while and ways to regain access however limited or temporary
but as the game plan advances.. give it another 10-15 years at the rate tech is advancing and it will be VERY HARD TO IMPOSSIBLE for
YOU small fries to do anything about it. Maybe someone with millions of $$$ can hack their devices but you with a small salary will
not ... and they will detect that you tried and put you away.

Well that's their game plan .... Now YOU!!!! need to do something about it!!!

IT STARTS WITH SAYING NO TO ARM AND BROADCOM HARDWARE
IT STARTS WITH INFLUENCING BUYING AT WORK.
IT STARTS WITH GETTING RID OF THEIR STOCK
IT STARTS WITH CALLING THEM UP AND BUGGING THE SHIT OUT OF THEM
IT STARTS WITH EDUCATING EVERYBODY ELSE AROUND YOU.
Enough all caps. But yeah to drive the point home.

It starts with easy things and yes.. the way freedom is going away it may well end someday with a whole lot of violence, blood and tears ...

Enough. Think this one through. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with locked down ipads never sure if
they're watching you with it, too scared to type anything 'radical' into it, too locked down to do what you want
while the box has the 100x the power tech has to do but is using that to make your life hard and miserable???

Help me out here, I don't want this kind of future.

end of the road for free software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681235)

it was fun while it lasted but open source just can't compete with the cathedral.

Good for Stallman (4, Insightful)

quixote9 (999874) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681345)

He may be dogmatic, but he's also right WAY more than he's wrong. All of open source owes him a lot.

BIOS with key (1)

sgt scrub (869860) | more than 2 years ago | (#40681411)

How hard will it be to replace a BIOS? If the OEM's are smart they will make it easy and not tell M$. Then they will be able to sell the boards after M$ has gone on to something else.

The Sky is falling the Sky is falling (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40681465)

I keep waiting for Stallman to realize that crying wolf and not offering an *acceptable* solution is just going to make his arguments sound weak, even if he is right. He needs a new song to sing.

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