Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

cancel ×

58 comments

A better name for it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728543)

Concerning Europe, should be re-labeled as pay-as-you-go-out-of-business high speed satellite broadband.

Re:A better name for it (1)

Cryacin (657549) | about 2 years ago | (#40728683)

Still cheaper than SMS

Re:A better name for it (1)

KingBenny (1301797) | about 2 years ago | (#40747157)

that's actually funny, i a sad and very depressing way
i wonder what our great leaders grand plan is, maybe they would like to re-instate slavery or something similar again. Sure looks like it's going down that way

Yea... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728577)

But have you seen the power strips the USA has?!?

Just watch out for Wimax (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728589)

It will be ubiqitous by 2009.

Posted from my Iridium Satellite Connection.

Re:Just watch out for Wimax (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729925)

hahahahahaha

Conspicuously missing: the actual price (0)

jamesh (87723) | about 2 years ago | (#40728635)

Conspicuously missing: the actual price

Can't you read? It's "Pay-as-you-go". That means they don't tell you the price until the end of the month.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (4, Insightful)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about 2 years ago | (#40728711)

T-mobile USA calls their prepaid plans "Pay-as-you-go", so it might also mean the service is prepaid (like you buy a certain number of GBs in advance)

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (1)

jamesh (87723) | about 2 years ago | (#40728777)

T-mobile USA calls their prepaid plans "Pay-as-you-go", so it might also mean the service is prepaid (like you buy a certain number of GBs in advance)

Sounds about right. In Australia the telco's have something called a "capped plan". One would think that a "cap" is something that reflects the maximum amount you spend each month, but it's actually the minimum you spend each month.

In retrospect though, "pay-as-you-go" does sound like it is more likely to be a prepaid plan... my bad.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40733095)

In Australia a "cap plan" also know "$500 of "value" for $49, suckers!" is a soon to be illegal way of obscuring how many minutes and sms messages the customer is actually buying and thus prevent customers from shopping providers for better deals. It's fraud, plain and simple.

Providers (amaysim is by far the best) also sell prepaid services which have minimum recharge per month/quarter and a cost per minute.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (4, Informative)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#40728717)

Un, no. Pay-as-you-go means pre-pay. It's the exact opposite of receiving a bill at the end of the month.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (1)

present_arms (848116) | about 2 years ago | (#40731573)

Pay as you go in the UK at least means say you pay £10 for say 1 GB of data for a month, you pay before you use :) I have an unlimited pay as u go data on my phone for 10 GBP /month that includes unlimited txt and 300 mins to any cell network voice mins too, I assume this satellite setup will be similar, sans the sms txt and voice of course.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about 2 years ago | (#40734333)

it can mean both things.

in this case it's named as data-usage-basis, which might mean both as well. however paying per gb is the norm for many satellite services since they were made available, which could lead to very, very high charges if someone left streaming on.

so this is a service which enables to make limits.
“Some users may wish to limit their exposure to bill shock, yet still have a need for high speed service upon demand without being subject to traffic management policies. Our service allows the partner to limit their credit risk by taking upfront payment for a well-defined GB volume of service,”

however what would be interesting.. why does this new service allow for something that could have been allowed with the older satellites easily as well?? they obviously had data metering in place already for billing.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (2)

Melkman (82959) | about 2 years ago | (#40728909)

Well, the actual price would be about 15,- euro per 1GB if you can believe their reseller at http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/webshop/online_tooken01.htm [europe-satellite.com] . But Avanti is not the first, Tooway has been providing a similar service for several years now.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (1)

Simon Brooke (45012) | about 2 years ago | (#40729139)

Well, the actual price would be about 15,- euro per 1GB if you can believe their reseller at http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/webshop/online_tooken01.htm [europe-satellite.com] . But Avanti is not the first, Tooway has been providing a similar service for several years now.

Full disclosure: I useTooway [toowaydirect.com] . I use it because I'm off-grid, so land-line based solutions are impossible, and it's a lot cheaper than a terrestrial microwave relay. And actually, I think for anyone in a remote rural area who needs decent bandwidth, it's a good solution even if they do have a landline. But ping times are long so you aren't going to play multiplayer games, and I find that skype audio (but interestingly not video) is unacceptably poor. It's also more expensive that people in cities pay for bandwidth, but that's part of what you choose when you decide to go off-grid.

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (2)

Alioth (221270) | about 2 years ago | (#40730451)

That's actually significantly cheaper than roaming charges on 3G, which are usually about 1.50/MB (MB, not GB) or about 1500 eur per GB. So satellite internet is actually two orders of magnitude cheaper than 3G roaming!

Re:Conspicuously missing: the actual price (1)

k(wi)r(kipedia) (2648849) | about 2 years ago | (#40728977)

Total billing might be indeterminate, but shouldn't there be some sort of rate cost either per unit (Mb/Gb) of data transferred or per duration of connection? Otherwise what's to prevent the provider from demanding your right arm as payment?

Pay-Through-The-Nose Satellite Broadband (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about 2 years ago | (#40728653)

Buying in bulk is usually cheaper than getting nickel-and-dimed to death with most stuff. Look at your supermarket per unit prices for King Size, Family Size and Holy Roman Empire Size packages. I'd rather see the service offered with daily, weekly, monthly flat rates instead of the old telephone pay-per-call system.

But I guess telephone companies like that system, because they ended up charging more for service than for flat rates.

Re:Pay-Through-The-Nose Satellite Broadband (1)

aurizon (122550) | about 2 years ago | (#40729129)

Why not have a cable meter, 25 cents per hour per channel. A family watching 4 hours/night = $1 per day, 8 hours = $2 etc etc.
Modern metering can easily do this

Cost? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728659)

Only $50/GB. Plus 4 pints of blood from your firstborn.

LEO or GEO (1, Interesting)

rossdee (243626) | about 2 years ago | (#40728673)

Where are the satellites, LEO or GEO ?

I'm guessing GEO so ping times sux

(Oh I spose I should clarify - LEO = Low Earth orbit - no more that a couple of hundred miles up. GEO = Geostationary - up at 25000 miles so it stays in the sameplace relative to the ground.)

Re:LEO or GEO (1)

Tastecicles (1153671) | about 2 years ago | (#40728677)

they're comsats with personal or base uplinks, so they'll be GEO. Right now, from what I've read, they're only offering contracts to military contractors and service providers. The PAYG service won't be going live until after the orbital testing on their second bird is complete at the end of August.

Re:LEO or GEO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728745)

Notice the use of singular "satellite", not the plural "satellites", in the article. Also, "Europe gets...". Limiting the service area of a network of LEO satellites to one continent would be highly inefficient. So of course it's a geostationary satellite. 36000km up, 36000km down, 72000km/(300000km/s) roundtrip time = 240ms. Not a deal breaker if the alternative is no connectivity or dialup.

Re:LEO or GEO (2)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#40728855)

Don't forget that the 240ms RTT is an absolute minimum - that's the distance to the first hop, and not including any processing delays. You're looking at 300-350ms as a minimum for a complete path. Still, the bandwidth is better than the ADSL that my mother gets, so if it's not stupidly expensive then I can imagine it being useful. The 4Mb/s downstream is (just!) enough to stream iPlayer HD.

Re:LEO or GEO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728955)

Very few apps are adversely affected by the long RTT times over 2-way satellite links. The only common services that come to mind are VTC, VoIP and online gaming. While the delay is noticeable with real-time communications over satellite (VTC/VoIP), most people's brains can adapt quite quickly making the issue a non-problem for most. Long delay can be a show stopper for some Internet gaming. Depends on the game and tolerance of the gamer.

I'm not aware of any satellite broadband services being offered over LEOs.

Re:LEO or GEO (2)

Ash-Fox (726320) | about 2 years ago | (#40729551)

Very few apps are adversely affected by the long RTT times over 2-way satellite links.

I have used systems that have high latency (not satellite) which caused problems with sites that use AJAX.

Re:LEO or GEO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728869)

What we normally call roundtriptime in communications is the time for a packet to roundtrip from one party, to the other, and back.
So your calculation shows only one half of roundtrip time.

Also, the distance is a bit more than that if you are not living on the equator.

Re:LEO or GEO (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728933)

You are right, roundtrip is up-down-internet-internet-up-down, so at least 500ms.
The distance difference is too small to make a fuss about: Earth radius is 6000km. At 60 degrees north (Shetland islands), the distance is sqrt((36000+3000)^2+3000^2)km=39115km. For the roundtrip, the additional 3115km add up to 4*(3115/300000)=42ms, i.e. less than 10% of the total roundtrip time.

Re:LEO or GEO (0)

hcs_$reboot (1536101) | about 2 years ago | (#40728971)

They should use FTL neutrinos to improve ping time.

22222 MILES + 22222 MILES = 44444 MILES = ? SEC !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728679)

You're nerds. You figure it out !!

Re:22222 MILES + 22222 MILES = 44444 MILES = ? SEC (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40729063)

3 second pings dont matter at all. 99% of us that do real things with the internet connectivity are not FPS gaming.
When I am uploading 20gig of photos I dont care about ping, but then I make money using it.

Now the Financial FPS games called day trading, I think they would hate 3 second pings. That might be a cool torture device for a financial trader... your order to sell showed up 5 seconds too late.... you will re-spawn in 5....4....3...2...

Re:22222 MILES + 22222 MILES = 44444 MILES = ? SEC (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 2 years ago | (#40729159)

(Too lazy)

Google [google.com] says it's 0.238584003 light-seconds... not that heavy, I suppose.

It's probably worth pointing out... (5, Informative)

Gordonjcp (186804) | about 2 years ago | (#40728689)

... that there are companies in the UK and EU who have been doing satellite broadband for over a decade now, with both flat-rate and pay-as-you-go billing.

This is *one* company that has started to provide it, nothing particularly new here.

Pay as you go for internet sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728811)

I won't be using it

Cost not listed because it's a wholesale provider (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728859)

B2C is handled by various European ISPs reselling the service at different prices. For example, Broadband-Portugal [broadband-portugal.com] sells 1GB tokens, which are valid 30 days, for 15 EUR. Primesatellitebroadband [primesatel...adband.com] offers subscription plans where add-on gigabytes cost £7.20 (about 9 EUR). There are other satellite operators which offer broadband internet access over a bidirectional satellite link.

BOOOOO!!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40728963)

USA! USA! God damn Euro people and their garbage tech. It sucks

Wish we had it though.

If you have to ask (1)

Freddybear (1805256) | about 2 years ago | (#40728979)

You can't afford it.

Re:If you have to ask (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729107)

What's a Z-Jay?

Conspicuously missing: the actual price. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729021)

If you need to ask, you can't afford it.

C seems slow in this context (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729029)

For the first time C seems slow, 230 milliseconds travelling to and from GSO seems a lot in this context. Comms through 'Spooky action at a distance' can't come soon enough.

Re:C seems slow in this context (1)

Oligonicella (659917) | about 2 years ago | (#40729587)

They're slated to arrive immediately behind your flying car.

I wish we could get that here in the USA. (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40729059)

Yes 3G 4G "broadband" is in a lot of places, but I wish I could get heughes net for just one month or even 1 week when I need it at a event. This weekend I had Verizon and their "superior" network.... that did not work... ZERO bandwidth with a crowd of only 125,000 Verizon utterly sucks. I had to switch to the wife's AT&T iphone and illigimately tether, and then hit the freaking data cap and slowdown to 28.8 dialup you get to enjoy.

A nice dish pointing at the sky would have solved that.

Directional or omnidirectional antenna? (1)

jago25_98 (566531) | about 2 years ago | (#40729097)

Mobile use, particularly at sea tends to involve omnidirectional antennas. Directional, gyro corrected antennas are very expensive and large.

Can this service tally with a handheld sat phone for lower speeds? I would hazard a guess of a yes but I've never found any info on this...

Re:Directional or omnidirectional antenna? (1)

Cyberax (705495) | about 2 years ago | (#40730153)

It's not really antennae - they're fairly affordable now. It's the Doppler shift - normal terrestrial terminals (working with GEO satellites) can't cope with more than about 10m/s speed differential. So you simply physically can't use these services at sea.

Yeah, there are maritime satellite services but they are nicely segregated into "it's cheaper to buy your own airplane than to use satphone" category.

The latency... (3, Informative)

__Paul__ (1570) | about 2 years ago | (#40729103)

...makes these services next to useless, especially now that the web isn't just a bunch of static pages anymore. I was using satellite broadband a few years ago, in rural Australia - it was barely better than the dialup line it replaced. We only took it up because the line quality on the dialup degraded to such a state that it couldn't stay online for longer than twenty minutes, and Telstra were incapable of fixing it.

Only low-orbit satellites are going to be able to make satellite-broadband useful.

Re:The latency... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40731051)

Quite the contrary!

If this is affordable, i will be thrilled when on the water!

Re:The latency... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40734021)

The high latency high bandwidth that is satellite might have some uses still, especially when paired with another connection that might be low latency low bandwidth. Does anyone here know if there is any software available on the client side that can make smart use of two connections simultaneously, exploiting the best of both worlds?

This development was expected (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729633)

Living in Spain (still part of Europe) I can tell you this is the trend nowadays, satellite broadband pay-as-you-go, justice pay-as-you-go, health care pay-as-you-go, its the future!

Caveat (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729729)

Having used satellite in Canada ( I live way out in the boonies ) for a couple of years, I can say that for browsing it wasn't bad. God help you if you have to use a VPN over it though. If you have to use a VPN, dial-up is just as fast as satellite :-( . Also because it uses a shared resource, you may find that they throttle back high bandwidth users aggressively ( i.e. don't try to download anything big ).

satellite can be fast and useable. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40729863)

Even though I'm less than 50 miles from high-tech San Diego, until recently dial up was our only option. For the past several months we've been using Viacom's Exede satellite service. Their big advertisement campaign was that it would "feel like fiber". Yes, really, that's what they went with.

The thing is, it actually is really fast most of the time. Of course you can't do things requiring low latency, such as playing video games online, but for most other activities, such as normal surfing, watching videos on youtube or elsewhere, or downloading files, it is extremely fast. Faster than most DSL services even.

The biggest downside (aside from no gaming) is pretty typical of just about any high-speed connection in the USA these days: insanely low data limits. Their cheapest data plan is $50/month, and gets you 7.5 gigs download and upload combined. $80/month gets you 15. So even though it "feels like fiber", and you could easily watch streaming movies (which they advertised heavily as a selling point before disclosing the data limits), in practicality you could maybe get one movie a month before getting throttled back.

So I guess what I'm saying relative to this discussion, is that satellite can be a viable internet option, and it actually can be high speed. But as long as you have no other choice, they have you by the balls and can limit you to ludicrously low amounts of data per month.

Round-trip latency (1)

hpa (7948) | about 2 years ago | (#40731691)

Round-trip latency can definitely be improved. It just means using LEO satellites instead of GEO.

Re:Round-trip latency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40732205)

There are many issues which arise with LEO satellites. There must be considerable cooperation between countries and telecoms to enable smooth performance.

obvious issues would include:

- the satellite which receives your packet is not over your country long enough to complete the transaction, or perhaps is not over your countries territory at all, then relying on another country's infrastructure and their regulations regarding the transmission of data not originating in their territory. Also consider a country's regulation about data being transmitted out of their country onto satellites which they do not control.

- passing messages between satellites must address similar issues

Re:Round-trip latency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40733001)

the Australian government may take issue with data originating in its territory passing through servers in Brasil or Indonesia.
LEO appears unlikely in the foreseeable future.

Re:Round-trip latency (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40733195)

If it's a bent pipe technology the packet is coming out in Australia, Fiji or Guam. Why would you waste intersatellite links when you have all of this extremely fast fiber in the ground?

Re:Round-trip latency (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 2 years ago | (#40732391)

Don't forget to add a motor to the dish to allow it to track the satellite across the sky. You'll also need a second dish so it can start tracking the next satellite, otherwise you will lose connection for a bit as the other satellite leave line-of-site.

They will also have to add this same ability to the satellite so it can track base stations.

Sounds a bit messy.

Re:Round-trip latency (1)

pegasustonans (589396) | about 2 years ago | (#40744459)

Round-trip latency can definitely be improved. It just means using LEO satellites instead of GEO.

Or just use thousands of UAVs.

Not new news (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40734903)

Firstly I have been using this service for over a year. It is currently available on a geostationary satellite at 9 East broadcasting to most of Europe. The increase in bandwidth is possible as they use 82 spot beams and so re-use the same frequency over and over again. The system also allows variable transmit power during rain etc. It also allows bit rate to vary per customer so if rain losses go high enough they can reduce bit-rate to keep link active.

The home dishes and trias were for sale on eBay in the UK as a once off cost. Then a top up or monthly package can be purchased. In Ireland one of the spots also carries a TV carrier for local TV. The power of the spots can also be varied per carrier.

But in general Satellite based internet should only be considered a last resort. Long ping times can affect VOIP and VPNs and real world bandwidth is shared between many hundreds of users meaning throttling and caps with rolling averages over minutes, and hours, meaning you get a fast initial burst of data, but they stop high usage users. Some suppliers make this very clear, others do not. Speeds of 10MB and even 30MB are available to commercial customers and even guaranteed speeds, but you pay much more.

Due to the number of spots and low cost of service it's probably better than other satellite based internet, but if you can get a 3G connection go for that. All new satellites launched for Europe will now start to carry KA transponders for TV and internet.

Check for New Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...