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Khan Academy: the Teachers Strike Back

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the quality-versus-quantity dept.

Education 575

theodp writes "With his Khan Academy: The Hype and the Reality screed in the Washington Post, Mathalicious founder Karim Kai Ani — a former middle school teacher and math coach — throws some cold water on the Summer of Khan Love hippies, starting with U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan. From the article: 'When asked why so many teachers have such adverse reactions to Khan Academy, Khan suggests it's because they're jealous. "It'd piss me off, too, if I had been teaching for 30 years and suddenly this ex-hedge-fund guy is hailed as the world's teacher." Of course, teachers aren't "pissed off" because Sal Khan is the world's teacher. They're concerned that he's a bad teacher who people think is great; that the guy who's delivered over 170 million lessons to students around the world openly brags about being unprepared and considers the precise explanation of mathematical concepts to be mere "nitpicking." Experienced educators are concerned that when bad teaching happens in the classroom, it's a crisis; but that when it happens on YouTube, it's a "revolution."'"

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Adverse reactions? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40755893)

I thought they just had an aversion to him. Apparently things are more serious than I'd understood!

Re:Adverse reactions? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756149)

I thought they just had an aversion to him. Apparently things are more serious than I'd understood!

Khaaaaan!

Re:Adverse reactions? (3, Informative)

Russ1642 (1087959) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756221)

His lessons are too slow. It's like getting a lesson from Grandpa Simpson. He only teaches one tiny basic concept per video and it takes him at least five minutes to get there and another five repeating, and repeating, and repeating. I can't watch more than half a video before I can't take it anymore.

And the unions are pissed... (-1, Troll)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755901)

And the unions are pissed because high pay for bad teaching is their territory!

Re:And the unions are pissed... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40755965)

Yeah, because holy shit that teacher pay rate is out of control.

Seriously, since when did the abysmally low rate of pay teachers receive become a point of contention?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2, Informative)

jimmifett (2434568) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756073)

I dunno, teachers are paid pretty well for the months they actually work. Often near $25-30+ an hour. It's only when one factors in the months they aren't teaching as lost wages does the rate seem to be lower. I don't think there is anything preventing them from working in the off season. Just another form of seasonal worker like lifegaurd or Mr Plow.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (4, Insightful)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756123)

yep... because they all put in carbonite for those two months off and don't have to eat...right?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Fallingcow (213461) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756327)

And they can usually get a job that pays something approaching real, professional wages during the summer.

And we don't often require them to have a degree that's specific to teaching and isn't terribly useful (aside from "any degree will do" situations) outside of teaching.

Yeah, we totally don't owe them anything for those months school isn't in session since they could, theoretically, in some fantasy land make real money doing something else in the summer and aren't effectively giving up a giant percentage of their earning potential during the off months so they can be available to teach the rest of the year.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756515)

Bullshit. Ever seen the requirements to stay certified as a teachers? 9, sometimes 12 hours of study per year that they have to shell out and attend for college courses just to "stay certified." It's a small wonder most of them eventually get multiple Masters degrees or a Doctorate, there's no point in not for the amount of "continuing education" courses they are required to take just to stay employed.

And when do you think they're taking those courses, hmmm?

I hate right wing shitbag morons like you who misrepresent teachers and think they're "doing nothing" all summer.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (3, Insightful)

iamwahoo2 (594922) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756625)

Can you link to a "9" credit hour requirement in any public school system in the US? Otherwise, I find your assertion extremely difficult to swallow.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (3, Interesting)

Zrako (1306145) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756233)

I don't think there is anything preventing them from working in the off season. Just another form of seasonal worker like lifegaurd or Mr Plow.

So a working professional with a Masters degree should have to get a "summer job" as a lifeguard or in retail in order to survive the summer? Does any other line of work that requires a college degree require a summer job like they are a high school student? Give me break!

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756393)

Does any other line of work that can be performed with a masters degree get the summer off?

Give *me* a break! No seriously, I'd love the summer off for 70 percent of my annual pay.

~Working Stiff :)

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756431)

They don't get the summer off. They just don't get paid for the summer. Does any other job only pay you for 9 months out of the year.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

jimmifett (2434568) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756501)

Does any other job where one only works 9 months out of the year pay for the other 3 months?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756559)

Repeat after me. Teachers do not get paid in the summer. They get paid for nine months. Nine mouth pay is either paid at the full rate for nine months. Or they get paid at a reduced rate for 12 months.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

docmordin (2654319) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756521)

Most, if not all, teaching/research professorships at universities do. As a result, typically, for the remaining three months, they have to supplement their salary with research grant money, if there is enough available.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (3, Insightful)

gallondr00nk (868673) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756477)

I dunno, teachers are paid pretty well for the months they actually work. Often near $25-30+ an hour.

Isn't that something to work towards though, instead of something to deride?

Why does it always have to be a race to the bottom?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (3, Insightful)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756483)

Not when you factor in the fact that they have to spend significant parts of those summers preparing updated curricula based on new test criteria, new versions of the books, etc. Not when you realize that they need to rework their tests over the summer, or else the students cheat. And so on.

Besides, $25 per hour is not being "paid pretty well". It's three times minimum wage, but a pharmacist makes double that with only about two more years of education. A tech sector employee makes double that on a bachelor's degree. Supervisors in Ford factories make double that, often with no degree at all. And for this, the teachers attended four years of college, plus at least a couple of years to get their teaching credentials, plus additional classes (CPE/CPD) every few years to maintain those credentials.

Teachers have what is, without a doubt, one of the most important jobs in the world. Without education, society would not move forward. Yet somehow we as a society feel that they deserve no more pay (on average) than a 7-11 store manager or a construction worker. And those same people wonder why our education system has problems. Please tell me you don't seriously consider such low salaries to be reasonable.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2)

edremy (36408) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756503)

I dunno, teachers are paid pretty well for the months they actually work. Often near $25-30+ an hour. It's only when one factors in the months they aren't teaching as lost wages does the rate seem to be lower. I don't think there is anything preventing them from working in the off season. Just another form of seasonal worker like lifegaurd or Mr Plow.

I know- $25/hour for a job that requires a bachelors, a ton of certifications and increasingly a masters degree. I mean, who are these folks to demand middle class wages? I mean, they're only responsible for educating our kids. We need to cut their pay to something reasonable like $10/hour. We'll save a ton of tax money that way, and I'm sure the kids will never notice. (At least those unfortunate enough to have to go to public school, that is. The deserving wealthy can use their tax cuts to pay for private school tuitions.)

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2)

Aereus (1042228) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756529)

You forget that the average teacher puts in more than 40hours a week during the school year. They're at the school for 7-9 hours, then they have to grade papers, work up lesson plans, etc. And there are a number of in-service days during the summer they still have to work.

If teachers were really living it up, the teacher's parking lot would not have the kinds of cars in it that they do ... they don't exactly drive around a bunch of Lexus'

Re:And the unions are pissed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756601)

You call that good pay for a white collar job?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756145)

I don't think you appreciate how much teachers really make, especially if they've been there for a while. Teachers get some of the most generous automatic raises you'll ever see, can get all kinds of salary bonuses for becoming nationally certified, etc. I used to work for a school district in an area where the average income is around $35,000/yr and some of the senior teachers in my district were making very close to six figures. The principals even more. They're hardly the poor street urchins the unions sell them as.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756211)

I should make clear that I meant $35,000 is the average pay for the AREA, not the teachers. Average teacher pay is WAY more.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (5, Informative)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756669)

And? To be a teacher you need to have a bachelors degree. I train computer scientists for a living, 12 months after graduation (or if they did a co-op, straight out of graduation) they are in the 70-90k a year range with a BSc. If they were teaching they wouldn't get to that point for at least 15 years. Starting teacher salaries are more like 25-40k and creep up from there.

Teachers do get good benefits, government jobs are like that, they get actual pension plans, which is more an indication that everyone else is getting fucked than one that teachers are getting an unfairly awesome deal, and they get health care. They also get the benefit of all of the right time off (march break, summers, chrismas etc. ) so they don't have to pay babysitters for those times like everyone else. But it's not really better paying than any decent job for someone with a bachelors. In fact it's far far far worse pay to be a teacher than to go into the private sector if you are trained in any of the 'STEM' areas.

Now I'll be up front and say I think the biggest problem with teaching salaries (and professor salaries most places) is that everyone is in the same pay bracket regardless of what you were trained in. The market for BA's in English is a LOT worse than the market for BSc's in Computer science, but you get paid the same in both teaching and professorship.

Having standardized teacher pay for a large area is really important because you don't want all of the good teachers to go to big cities in rich neighbourhoods and all of the bad teachers in the poor neighbourhoods and so on.

http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/ actually gives a good look at teacher salaries in the US. The highest are just under 60k average, and I hate to break it to you, but finding someone with a BSc in math/chemistry/physics/comp sci/engineering who will get out of bed for you at 60k with 15 years experience is going to be tough in a lot of places.

It's not like teachers who can get full time gigs are destitute, nor should they be, but it's not some spectacular awesome paying job either. If your area happens to be full of people who scrape by on minimum wage well then maybe you need some better teachers so people will be capable of doing work that warrants more than 35k a year? Maybe you need something to attract people to the area that have decent incomes, so they could have a worthwhile lifestyle and attract and retain more people like that?

Oh and if you compare the link I just gave to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income, on average teachers are paid about well, average, and actually a little less than average. Admittedly, that doesn't count the benefits package, which is nice, but well, you'd think teachers are supposed to be in the top half of wage earners considering they're required to be in the top 40% of education attainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States).

And yes, teachers get summers off. I'm not sure if you've ever tried to plan lessons for 5 hours a day for 10 months, but that takes a LOT of work the first few times you do it. During those 10 months you are marking and adjusting and improvising and trying to actually get the shit together for the class, so you have time 'off' where you're expected to independently figure out how to manage things for the 10 months you are at the front of the room, and that is your vacation time, baring some exceptional circumstances you don't get any other time off for a holiday (which is a fair tradeoff, but one should be clear that teachers don't get 4 weeks paid leave on top of the time they already get).

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756227)

I don't think you appreciate how much teachers really make, especially if they've been there for a while. Teachers get some of the most generous automatic raises you'll ever see, can get all kinds of salary bonuses for becoming nationally certified, etc. I used to work for a school district in an area where the average income is around $35,000/yr and some of the senior teachers in my district were making very close to six figures. The principals even more. They're hardly the poor street urchins the unions sell them as.

Close to 6 figure as in less than $100,000. That terrible for someone with a masters degree in a senior position. Also Principals are basically management what is effectively a pretty sizable company. How much does management make in the private sector?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2)

Zrako (1306145) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756287)

I don't think you appreciate how much teachers really make, especially if they've been there for a while. Teachers get some of the most generous automatic raises you'll ever see, can get all kinds of salary bonuses for becoming nationally certified, etc. I used to work for a school district in an area where the average income is around $35,000/yr and some of the senior teachers in my district were making very close to six figures. The principals even more. They're hardly the poor street urchins the unions sell them as.

This is only if your school district does not have a freeze on raises like every single school district within 40 miles of where I live. With the budget crunch in education teachers are not getting their automatic raises for time spent teaching or advancing their education.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (2)

HarrySquatter (1698416) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756359)

Care to back this up with facts rather than us having to take your word for it?

Re:And the unions are pissed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756159)

Seriously, since when did the abysmally low rate of pay teachers receive become a point of contention?

So your solution would be to pay abysmally bad teachers more?

I think the OP's point was that most teachers fucking suck ass here in the USA, and if your teaching is going to be a bad one, a free bad teacher is unarguably better than a tax-funded bad teacher.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756365)

Seriously, since when did the abysmally low rate of pay teachers receive become a point of contention?

So your solution would be to pay abysmally bad teachers more?

I think the OP's point was that most teachers fucking suck ass here in the USA, and if your teaching is going to be a bad one, a free bad teacher is unarguably better than a tax-funded bad teacher.

That is a very broad brush you are painting EVERY teacher in the entire country with. Of course there are bad teachers out there. There are also bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad engineers, bad businessmen etc. There are people who suck at their job in every field whether or not it requires a college degree. I would dare say that at any given school there are far more good teachers then bad teachers, it is just the bad teachers who get all the press.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756511)

That is a very broad brush you are painting EVERY teacher in the entire country with.

You seem to have had some bad teachers. I said most not EVERY.

I would dare say that at any given school there are far more good teachers then bad teachers, it is just the bad teachers who get all the press.

No one dared you, and you said it. However, based on the US's continual rank dropping in global education ratings, I feel justified in my use of the word 'most'.

I dare you to provide citations to back up your assessment.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (4, Insightful)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756193)

But bad teachers who have been around forever are very highly paid. Good teachers that have not been there for 20 years are the under paid ones. And that is the problem.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Baloroth (2370816) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756275)

Yeah, because holy shit that teacher pay rate is out of control.

Seriously, since when did the abysmally low rate of pay teachers receive become a point of contention?

Because they are getting paid an average salary (median, according to some quick Googling, is $50,000 or about the same as the median for US household income) for working 8-9 months or so of the year (factoring in summer/Christmas/spring vacation, and sure that isn't completely time off but it's a lot more than most people get), and doing an absolutely shitty job, judging by the results (US high school eduction being considered one of the worst in the world).

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1, Insightful)

geekoid (135745) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756305)

Classic republican tactic. Attack the facts and use ad hom attacks. Then their people just repeat the lie on blogs. Pretty soon teachers are villinized and cutting funding for schools becomes easier.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

lgw (121541) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756645)

Classic democrat tactic. Ignore the facts and use ad hom attacks. Then their people just repeat the lie on blogs. Pretty soon people are blind to the fact that teachers are quite well paid in most places if you include the value of the pension plan, and balancing state and local budgets becomes harder.

Fixed benefit pension plans need to go. If a 401K is good enough for us peons, it's good enough for the privileged few in government jobs.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756577)

You don't live near me. Teachers around here regularly make six figures. Once tenured, they can't be fired for performance. Its a nice gig, if you can get it.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756037)

What the hell are you talking about? Teachers in America are some of the worst paid in the industrialized nations.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (3, Informative)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756209)

Automatic pay raises based on seniority, and not merit... I am all for paying good teachers a lot more.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

HarrySquatter (1698416) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756389)

Funny because in many states due to budget shortfalls there have been years of salary freezes fo teachers.

Re:And the unions are pissed... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756583)

It's not about teacher pay. It's about tenure and seniority. Here's my modest proposal:

1. Double the pay available for teacher salaries.
2. Reduce administration:staff to levels comparable to private industry, in cases where it is exceeded.
3. Grant the remaining administrators the ability to evaluate and fire at will, and to distribute the payroll funds at will according to what they deem fit--just as it is in private industry.

Now that gets to the heart of the matter. In the real world, older workers are valued for their experience, not simply because they are old. You can just hear the unions screaming that bad admins will fire the wrong people, and evaluate them unfairly. Well, howdy-do! Welcome to the world the rest of us live in!

You know what? If the admin keeps doing that, the board will figure out he's an idiot. He'll get fired. Will you have to move to a different district? Maybe 2 or 3 times? Yes. Once again, welcome to the real world.

What if you move 10 times? What if you can't get hired as a teacher after the 10th move? Pretty good chance you're a sucky teacher. Maybe there's a 1:10,000,000 chance it's not your fault. Guess what? It's not worth the tenure and seniority crapfest we have now just to prevent a bizarre corner case.

That Apple computer you're probably typing on at your union job? It was made under conditions that are not even 1:100th as good as yours; but nevermind that. The working conditions at Apple HQ are the envy of the world but guess what? They can be fired. They get paid based on evals from managers. The evals are (I have no idea, just guessing) based on corporate policy only loosely, and probably involve a lot of discression on the part of the individual manager. Apple is a success. You are a failure. Are there any questions?

A field in its infancy (4, Insightful)

iceaxe (18903) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755933)

Online education is in its infancy. This is an area where many ideas are being tried. Some will work better than others. Probably nothing currently available is "the answer", but rather all are those little baby steps toward what will eventually emerge. It's a normal and pretty universally unavoidable process.

Re:A field in its infancy (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756173)

No, online education is just 'education'. We have been having this argument for at least 100 years regarding technology and its transformation of learning. Some things do get easier better with technology, but in the end what we have a is a teaching and learning problem -- not a technology problem. Using new technologies we figure out ways to improve teaching and learning but one technology will not be the answer.

Nor will Salman Khan's idea that he is going to build Charter schools where students watch and hour of his videos a day to learn all the math they need to know and spend the rest of the day playing guitar or making paintings.

Learning is hard. Some parts can be made easier with computer technology. Some parts can be made easier by turning them into a game. Some parts you just need to sit down and memorize. Most parts are done best when there is a group who are trying to figure things out and working together to achieve a common goal.

This is how businesses grow and get better. This is how children grow and learn. Technologies including chalk, pencils, iPads and times tables are tools to help.

Re:A field in its infancy (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756301)

Learning is hard.

Citation needed.

IMHO learning how to learn may be tenuous at best, and difficult at worst. After one has learned how to learn, learning is actually quite easy.

I suspect (having no citations or research to draw from) that people think learning is hard because they have an innate fear of failing based on societal pressure, and that learning is quite often a series of failures.

Re:A field in its infancy (5, Interesting)

grumbel (592662) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756609)

Learning is hard.

The hardest problem with learning is that you get lost in all the unresolved references, when the teacher (or book) assumes knowledge from the student that the student doesn't yet have, not the learning new stuff itself. And that's something that could very well be solved by technology and by making use of an interactive medium. Of course it could also be solved by having much smaller classes and more teachers, but I don't quite think that will happen anytime soon.

exactly (3, Insightful)

poetmatt (793785) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756281)

People decrying this are the teachers who are in fear of change. Nobody said his solution has to be the final one but guess what - do you see any of these teachers who are complaining doing anything to create online teaching methods?

If anything, Khan should be commended for apparently doing what some teachers have not - and for free, no less.

Re:A field in its infancy (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756557)

Online education is to education as phone sex is to sex.

When "you're doing it wrong" is fun. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40755945)

Experienced educators are concerned that when bad teaching happens in the classroom, it's a crisis; but that when it happens on YouTube, it's a "revolution."'"

The "revolution" in sex ed will now commence.

Re:When "you're doing it wrong" is fun. (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755989)

I'll volunteer as an object lesson...

Re:When "you're doing it wrong" is fun. (2)

houstonbofh (602064) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756239)

So you will teach the "abstinence" course?

Re:When "you're doing it wrong" is fun. (2)

Guignol (159087) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756407)

No, he will follow the successful trend and brag about being unprepared and consider "foreplay" and "having your partner also satisfied" concepts to be mere "nitpicking"

Classroom vs. Kahn (5, Insightful)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755973)

If the teaching is going to be bad either way, then Kahn costs a heck of a lot less to get the same result.

If Kahn and a unionized teacher are both bad, for Kahn the solution is for someone to upload a new lesson that's better. For the teacher, the solution is to suck it up because teacher unions demand that seniority trumps all other considerations.

I have no idea if Kahn or classroom teachers are ultimately the better choice. But the teachers unions better cobble together some damn good arguments for why they deserve the compensation and job protections they get, if Kahn offers way better bang for the buck.

Re:Classroom vs. Kahn (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756091)

Haha, "compensation"

Wrong. Classroom PLUS Khan (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756095)

If the teaching is going to be bad either way, then Kahn [sic] costs a heck of a lot less to get the same result.

I think I should point out that I haven't found any place where Khan suggests that his youtube videos replace public education.

Khan's made a few mistakes. The first that is the worst is that the article mentions he was corrected about multiplying negative numbers and instead of praising the people for making a new video correcting him, he apparently just took his video down and replaced it. And then made some little remark about why people put up such a big fuss about this concept. His second and less grievous mistake was to engage talking heads and accept praise from politicians. I think if he had just focused on making videos, ignored the praise and let Bill Gates or some other public figure pitch the video, he wouldn't find himself the target in this back and forth. We need to stop looking at online education as a replacement and instead as an augmenting force in our children's learning.

Re:Wrong. Classroom PLUS Khan (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756237)

How about this from wikipedia:

Khan has stated a vision of turning the academy into a charter school:

        This could be the DNA for a physical school where students spend 20 percent of their day watching videos and doing self-paced exercises and the rest of the day building robots or painting pictures or composing music or whatever.[9]

Sounds like he is advocating a replacement to public education ...

Re:Classroom vs. Kahn (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756111)

Kahn is like getting a point by point lesson on solving the steps or an Algebra.
The Classroom should be about that and why you use it and how to apply it.

There is no comparison. Khan isn't teaching, and teachers shouldn't be teaching like Khan.

Re:Classroom vs. Kahn (4, Informative)

CommieLib (468883) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756197)

Exactly. If Khan doesn't work, it will fade away. The same is not true of public schools. Look, I don't even think most teachers are going to disagree with this - the public school system doesn't allow for adjustment and experimentation - it just can't. The reasons why are political, and don't really matter. But the system hasn't worked for about a generation and a half now, nothing is going to change from the inside.

Re:Classroom vs. Kahn (1)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756519)

the teachers unions better cobble together some damn good arguments for why they deserve the compensation and job protections they get, if Kahn offers way better bang for the buck.

That is basically the point of the article -- the Kahn academy is not better than a classroom teacher, and it is not a substitute for the guidance of an expert. The Kahn academy is being criticized (and has been repeatedly criticized) for falling into the trap of giving formulaic approaches to problem solving, the typical vocational-minded philosophy on education that has been so destructive to the education system in America (and possibly else, but I am not familiar enough to comment).

What do you think is more important: developing a student's intellect and preparing them to find solutions to problems not covered in the classroom, or having students memorize a bunch of formulas (and this is not just a math thing -- this is a problem in a lot of fields)? That Kahn academy seems to be based on the idea that teaching a student lots of formulas is the goal; if the students encounter problems that were not covered, then they should just watch another video, right? That is the kind of education that students should be paid to participate in -- free is not even a low enough price.

Pretty hilarious (2)

forgent (2692021) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755981)

Given the state of schooling in many countries. Post secondary school, especially, has the nasty habit of being massively bloated and wasteful in terms of resources, as well as teachers pushing their own books as courseware at insane prices, then not even referencing them in the course. At least with Khan, the price is right and you don't feel ripped off, or pressured into continuing education in a broken system with more administrative holes than swiss cheese.

Re:Pretty hilarious (0)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756593)

Given that the Kahn lectures fall squarely in the "memorize formulas" category, I would say that the price is not even right -- that sort of education is detrimental to students, because it fails to develop their intellect. When a corporation needs someone who has memorized some formulas, they pay the person to memorize the formulas -- and I do not think it is unfair to suggest that if Kahn cannot do better than "memorize these formulas," then students should demand payment for spending their time watching the videos.

I don't know .... (5, Insightful)

King_TJ (85913) | more than 2 years ago | (#40755985)

My personal thought is, who cares? You get what you pay for, right? Services like Khan Academy are great if they're helping people learn things they wouldn't otherwise take an interest in learning about, or if it enables learning they were interested in but couldn't afford traditional methods of education.

If you're already IN a traditional classroom environment, then no - I'm not sure Khan Academy lessons are so great. I mean, you have to ask, as a paying student, why you're paying your hard-earned money to get a personal classroom experience with supposed educational professionals, who turn around and ask you to sit through canned Khan presentations instead of presenting the material themselves.

As for the "precise explanation of mathematical concepts to be mere nitpicking"? Maybe it is, really? By that, I mean, most people are really only interested in learning math as long as it allows them to accomplish something. The minority who find the theory itself fascinating and want to learn more math for the sake of learning it are the ones who will probably move beyond whatever Khan Academy teaches, and consult other sources.

If you know enough math to get correct answers to the problem you encounter as part of your daily life or job, then that's likely ALL the math you really need to know.

Re:I don't know .... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756093)

The issue is that they're likely not helping people learn. A good explanation, by a guy with a PhD in science education techniques (or something similar):

https://fnoschese.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/khan-academy-and-the-effectiveness-of-science-videos/

Easy videos that you can watch without really concentrating on do not improve your understanding, they reinforce bad ideas that you had before. There is no silver bullet for education, you have to grit your teeth and put some time aside.

Re:I don't know .... (1)

hawkinspeter (831501) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756189)

I agree. Free learning tools are a valuable resource and they can spark someone's interest whereas traditional teaching environments usually involve significant investment of time and money before you even find out if the topic is of interest.

If people aren't happy with the accuracy of the lectures, then they can go and produce something more accurate and give everyone access to it. Khan Academy is a great starting point that can hopefully inspire would-be students and teachers.

Re:I don't know .... (2)

geekoid (135745) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756269)

"You get what you pay for, right?
That's probably the greatest lie perpetrated on the American people.

Vive La Revolution (0)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756015)

I for one salute our bad e-teacher overlords. That'll give me the time I need to repurpose all the college kids currently being recruited into obsolete analog teaching positions for my growing army of disaffected warriors. We'll play the long game, and wait as humanity embraces non-nitpicky math, jesus-science, and non offensive literature. As the idiocracy grows in ignorance, so shall we grow in power and hunger... Soon the great feast shall commence! Bwahahahahaha.

I mean... errrr... gosh I'm excited about new technology improving education, why do teachers need to be such party poopers with facts. Its probably all some union's fault.

Levels (1)

ThunderBird89 (1293256) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756029)

Although I haven't watched any of the Khan Academy videos, I suspect they're sort of a crash-course, designed to bring the viewer up to speed about topics fast, and give them a working knowledge. University education, on the other hand, aims to give the student in-depth knowledge to enable him/her to do scientifically rigorous, groundbreaking work in their field.
The two are on fundamentally different levels, while both are teaching, and equally legitimate. Just for different purposes ("emergency" knowledge VS. scientific knowledge).

Re:Levels (2)

MachDelta (704883) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756653)

What's funny to me is that I once used Khan Academy to pass a (required) intro Stats course when my university prof turned out to be HORRIBLE. His accent was thicker than molasses, he couldn't actually answer a student's question when asked (he just repeated the same steps/examples), he didn't even have his own notes - he was working off of another prof's lessons! They might as well have put a parrot at the front of the room. I learned jack squat in class. So, I stopped going, and started digging into my textbook (helpful but tedious) and ripping through Khan's stuff (quick but not very in depth). KA was helpful for quickly learning the overarching concepts, where the text was better at dissecting specific problems. I doubt I would have had the patience to learn everything from the text; Khan was a lifesaver. I passed the course, rated the prof into the toilet on his faculty eval, sold the textbook, became a fan of Khan's stuff, and smashed my $4 statistics calculator with a hammer just for the satisfaction of finishing a terrible course.

What about people outside of formal education? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756051)

Show me a teacher who's willing to give me a random, informative, 5-minute lecture, for free, with a 30-second lead time in my own bathroom and we can talk.

Conflict of interest (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756059)

This is article deriding free on-line math education written by a person who develops paid on-line math education.

Re:Conflict of interest (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756243)

I didn't see that in her bio? I did see this:
"She would have liked to be an astronaut if math had not been such a crucible."
which I fund humorous.

Re:Conflict of interest (5, Informative)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756493)

"This was written by Karim Kai Ani, a former middle school teacher and math coach, and the founder of Mathalicious, which is rewriting the middle school math curriculum around real-world topics."

This is not only at the top of the TFA, but the information is also stated in the first sentence of TFS.

Ad Hominem (3, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756297)

This is article deriding free on-line math education written by a person who develops paid on-line math education.

That sounds like an ad hominem. Motives aside, is the argument valid? One part of the article stood out to me:

As a result, experienced educators have begun to push back against what they see as fundamental problems with Khan’s approach to teaching. In June, two professors from Grand Valley State University created their own video in [washingtonpost.com] which they pointed out errors in Khan’s lesson on negative numbers: not things they disagreed with, but things he got plain wrong. To his credit, Khan did replace the video. However, instead of using this as an opportunity to engage educators and improve his teaching, he dismissed the criticism.

“It’s kind of weird,” Khan explained, “when people are nitpicking about multiplying negative numbers.”

When asked why so many teachers have such adverse reactions to Khan Academy, Khan suggests it’s because they’re jealous. “It’d piss me off, too, if I had been teaching for 30 years and suddenly this ex-hedge-fund guy is hailed as the world’s teacher.”

Why isn't Khan embracing criticism and review/removal/replacement of his videos by knowledgeable folks? I would be rewarding people proofing my many videos and trying to get more people doing that instead of dismissing it as "nitpicking."

Re:Ad Hominem (2)

Anonymous Psychopath (18031) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756535)

It's certainly possible the arguments are valid, but I'm deeply skeptical of criticism about a product that's written by a competitor. Especially one who fails to note the conflict, as is customary in journalism.

Re:Conflict of interest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756671)

free != high quality

yes..and no (1)

geekoid (135745) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756061)

I always looked at it as a great way to explain the process to kids.

When my kids are frustrated with a problem, I will bring up an example in the Khan academy. It helps them, or at the very least helps them tell me precisely where they are confused.

And any parent knows, when A kid is frustrated, getting a lesson from a parent can exacerbate the problem.

That said, if you only went to the Khan Academy to learn math, you will miss out on the finer details that are important with more advanced math. It doesn't help people THINK about what the math is doing. Subtle, but important distinction. I wan't my kids to know where and when to apply Algebra and Geometry in the real world. I do it often enough where the see it, but extra is good.

Slope as rise over run. (4, Insightful)

Vellmont (569020) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756067)

If the complaint about how "rise of run isn't a formal definition of slope" is indicative of the kinds of errors in his lectures, then I'd say Khan is right that the naysayers are just being picky. Yah, it's not perfectly accurate or a formal definition, but it's an excellent start to understanding a deeper understanding.

An educators job should be to get people excited about a subject, not to present the most perfect, gods honest truth answers to everything. Anyone interested in a subject will go on to learn more, and find out the more nuanced and correct answers. If you've ever become an expert in any field, you know that everyone (including the best teachers) don't always have time or knowledge to give the best possible answers. That's OK, since education doesn't stop once the class stops.

If your ultimate (and final) response when asked why you believe something is "because my teacher told me", then you really don't understand the subject matter very well at all.

Re:Slope as rise over run. (1)

Ambvai (1106941) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756283)

If the complaint about how "rise of run isn't a formal definition of slope" is indicative of the kinds of errors in his lectures, then I'd say Khan is right that the naysayers are just being picky.

I agree.

Hell, I've picked up my bachelor's a few years ago and it wasn't until a few weeks ago, reading *manga* that I actually learned just why 1 isn't a prime number. And that was with having hit that question in middle/high school before. The answer that comes back is usually just 'That's how it is.' or something like that.

Re:Slope as rise over run. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756549)

I'm "on the ground" so to speak as I just took Calc 1 (took it in HS, but that was long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away). If and when I decide to become a theoretical mathematician, I will happily and eagerly memorize every proof known to man. In the meantime, I'd just like to use the stuff. So...

First, I want to be able to do the math. I don't care if I understand it.
Second, I want to understand it. Walk me through the proof.

But why in the world do I have to memorize them for the test? And then again for the final? The fact that I have to memorize them a second time for the final shows that we are simply not using them, which really makes me wonder how applicable they will be in any job I'm going to get. And how many non math teachers can walk through all those proofs from memory to this day?

Teachers Should Embrace this (1)

Angrywhiteshoes (2440876) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756081)

Encourage their students to watch it and get the general idea as homework one night, teach a follow up lesson the next day and then give a homework on that topic that evening. The more exposure to the material the better.

One of my best math teachers in college used to encourage us to watch these types of videos, once he gave us an assignment where the guy in the video was doing something wrong. Our assignment was to find out what he was doing wrong and write up what he should have done that would make it correct.

Modern teachers always bitch about not enough resources or time to do things... well here's your resource, it's often free and accessible, take advantage of it.

Conventional American Teachers are marvelous (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756167)

The proof is in the metrics. American students suck because they're not taught fundamentals when its time to learn fundamentals. Instead they are taught social agendas and happy thoughts. The teachers should've been pissed 30-40 years ago when this started happening, not waiting until idiocracy dominates the system output.

Pfah (1)

DaKong (150846) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756169)

Those traditional teachers say that as though they take an actual interest in their students and take the time to fully answer their questions in a thorough, instructive manner. Lemme save the younglings here the costly journey through higher education now and say, they don't! Traditional teachers have canned lectures they give over and over for 30 years. What do they care if they make no sense? They have non-English speaking TA's for that. Or if they don't, who cares? At the end of the day they're the ones issuing the grades so if you don't like it you can take a hike. Seriously.

Then you take somebody like Khan who wants to explain the concepts in an accessible way, and take no money for it. It seems the only ones who have a problem with that are the ones who have been doing it wrong for generations and charging a premium for it, as gatekeepers to ineffable knowledge.

Well, friends, this is the sound of chickens coming home to roost. Rip enough people off for long enough, and they will route around your damage. Watch, and beware, ye (teachers|bankers|politicians|oilmen|1%)

Motivation (4, Insightful)

silverhalide (584408) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756177)

Khan Academy is the greatest supplemental education resource I have ever seen. But, one thing it can't do is force you to sit down, block off an hour a day, and learn a subject. Let's face is, 95% of us do not have that motivation, especially where one tab away awaits an entire internet of distractions.

Having a physical obligation, to an in-face person in a physical location to show up and learn something is an exceptionally powerful psychological motivational force and something that online education simply can't replace.

But man, would have I killed to have Khan available when it came to exam time in high school and college.

Re:Motivation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756485)

badges and game theory can help with this. they do have some of that implemented.

My way is better than your way... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756195)

So basically some guy who now has his own teaching web-site is trashing another guy who currently has the more popular teaching web-site.
Does that about sum it up?

RIght on about Math (4, Insightful)

spire3661 (1038968) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756205)

There is so much of accessible math theory locked behind the wall of algebra. Mathematics is BORING until you can show people WHY they are learning this. Most math classes i have taken are just total wrote calculation with no rhyme or reason. Its 'do it this way, you'll figure why out later'. When the 'later' is 2 years of math classes down the road, Khan's kinda got a point.

Re:RIght on about Math (3, Insightful)

lorinc (2470890) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756629)

Mathematics is BORING until you can show people WHY they are learning this

Actually if you continue learning maths, there's a moment where they become interesting by themselves and not only for what you can do with it.

If you didn't felt this, I guess you stopped too early, like when you stop reading a very good book because the first chapter was boring. Or maybe it's just not your kind (say, like some musical taste), whatever practical use it has or not.

Health Rider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756219)

Back in the '80s, cable TV was inundated by infomercials for a home workout gadget called Health Rider. It was a gadget where one slowly rocked back and forth (usually with a big smile on one's face), and after 15 minutes (three in the commercial), it was folded up and stowed under the bed. Sure, it didn't come cheap, but a gym membership was much more expensive, and the costs of being permanently out of shape could be catastrophic.

The problem wasn't that the gadget didn't deliver a workout. It did, but the workout wasn't very good. Customers had to find out for themselves that getting in shape required time, effort, and dedication. They're finding out the same thing about Sal's videos. The problem isn't Sal, just like the problem wasn't Health Rider. The problem is that shortcuts fail.

Re:Health Rider (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756683)

> The problem is that shortcuts fail.

Agreed, and that includes other shortcuts like Mathalicious.

Cult of the false expert. (4, Insightful)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756253)

We need to be wary of Kahn Academy, but we have to be wary of "experts" that are condemning Kahn Academy as well.

A lot of times the "experts" doing on the complaining in popular media are just as worthless as listening to your fat neighbor who is bitching over his beer on his porch. Most of the talking heads on TV are like this and more and more even the people that are high ranking in governmental and professional organizations are well is well. It's because they're better at bullshit then their "expert" subject.

So.. as far as Kahn Academy, it's likely a little bit of both sides are right and both sides are wrong. You have "educators" that don't want to absorb different ideas and you have Kahn who is also a bit of an ass himself.

Public schools are hardly first rate (2)

atticus9 (1801640) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756259)

I read the article criticizing a few particular lessons, but by comparison the education in public schools can be much worse. Yes there's some amazing teachers out there that will blow Khan's Academy out of the water covering the same material, but for every great teacher there's dozens of mediocore ones and a handful of really bad ones that you probably would never want your child hanging around, much less be subjugated to.

I wonder if Secretary of Education Arne Duncan cares about that?

Eveyone hates to be made into a commodity (5, Insightful)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756263)

Everyone hates to have their business made into a commodity, that's simple economics. Once it happens, you have to compete on cost alone and be hyper-efficient to make a buck. You can only stay above that if you have a clear and provable advantage over the commodity version, and such things are difficult to maintain as the quality of the commodity version improves.

Look at this like Wikipedia. There are obvious quality problems, but Wikipedia keeps improving and getting larger, and if you're Microsoft Encarta, there's just no market for you any longer (thus, the first MS product actually killed by Open Source).

The guild apprenticeship system really hated book-learning. Copyists really hated printing. Both of these were previous means to commoditize education. This is just more of the same.

There will be tremendous economic repercussions from the further commoditization of education.

Bruce

And all of a sudden teachers around the world (0)

future assassin (639396) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756265)

cried KHAAAAAN.... khaaaaan

Insert obligatory Kirk scream here.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756371)

KHANNNN!!

Online education should mean one thing (4, Interesting)

betterunixthanunix (980855) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756379)

There should be exactly one goal in online education: to improve the quality of education. There is nothing else to discuss until that matter is settled, and it is nowhere near settled. "Transforming education" is only good if the transformation yields better education.

Here in the USA, education has become almost exclusively a matter of vocational training. That has been extremely destructive to education and to the society that education serves (and make no mistake, what is bad for education is bad for society). We spend all our time teaching people formulaic approaches to problems, and almost never take the time to help students develop their intellect or their ability to develop new approaches to the problems they need to solve. If the Kahn academy is not addressing that problem, then it is not addressing the most important issue that faces education here.

To put it another way, look at the state of computer education in schools. Students are taught how to use the prepackaged solutions that their school districts buy, and those students who dare to go beyond "here is how you make the font bigger" are often punished (you know, because they are dangerous hackers who know how to get a terminal opened on a system that is programmed to stop them from writing their own software). Even when we do bother to teach people to write software, we give them formulaic approaches to solving programming problems -- when I TA'd a CS101 course, the students were required to have their programs formatted in a specific way, to write their programs in a specific language, and my personal favorite rule, they were forbidden to use language features that they had not been taught about.

I do not want to discredit online education, since it may very well enable a better approach in some topics (I doubt all -- one cannot really judge a sculpture without being able to see it first hand). However, given that I have not heard anyone express any alternative philosophy on education (it's purpose or how best to carry it out), I have doubts. If someone believes that education is about training people for a job, they are not likely to develop anything other than a vocational training program.

All of this is a waste... (2)

Genda (560240) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756399)

By all means include teachers in the process, particularly passionate teachers with amazing results because they have something to say, something to share, and they can shape this thing into a better tool to serve humanity. To those who are concerned that its threatening your turf, get over it, technology hasn't even begun to threaten your turf. You want to shape the future, ride the wave, become a meaningful part of the change. Those of you just putting in time, because its your job, sorry, it may not be your job much longer. There are a ton of great teachers out there who will find a way to use this technology to improve their educational process, and teachers aren't going away any time soon. People like people to people interaction in educating their children, its how human beings are designed.

That said, the only way to transform the vast majority of poor and suffering human beings on the planet is to bring enlightenment, and that takes education. What Khan is doing will change the world. Who cares if someone else designs the curriculum, and another person delivers the classes. The point is that anyone anywhere with an inexpensive tablet will soon be able to take their child from early grade school to college, at their own pace. Can anything be more important on the planet today. Hell, I'd love to have a few folks in D.C. sit through a few of those classes. We might get some sanity.

Last sentence of TFA reads... (1)

OneAhead (1495535) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756455)

..."I know exactly what I’m going to say, because that’s what teaching means."
So, teaching means either you're a psychic who knows exactly how quick the students will be on the uptake and what questions they will ask in class, or you're teaching your stuff like a tape recorder, without looking into the classroom and gauging whether they are following you and without allowing them to ask questions? *shudder*

The flipped classroom is on the way (4, Informative)

rmcd (53236) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756459)

I think a debate about Khan's specific videos is beside the point. For years, people have been talking about online education and we got these dreadful videos of a professor lecturing, shot from the back of the room. Khan shows us a realistic vision of how online education can happen at reasonable cost. It will not necessarily replace the teachers, but it will replace a teacher who repeats the same material multiple times a day. And it will help to level the playing field.

People in universities are talking a lot about is the "flipped classroom", which means the lecture is online and clarification and working of problems occur in the classroom. This model is most obviously applicable to STEM classes, and if you haven't been following the developments, this site at NC State [ncsu.edu] offers an overview of what's going on with one kind of flipped classroom and where it's happening. The University of Minnesota has recently made a huge investment in this kind of classroom.

Whatever happens with Khan specifically, he's energized a process of transformation that everyone knew had to happen eventually. Kudos to him.

Leave him alone. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756465)

Might be a moron with a scam.

But he's still miles ahead of the rest of the educators in america. We have no high ground on which to denounce ANYONES education anything... we've fucked it all up from top to bottom inside and out.

Americas education systems are a fucking joke.

Now begin the arguing about whos fault that is. Instead of fixing any of it..... and........ GO.

Khan Needs Guidence (5, Interesting)

KalvinB (205500) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756487)

I've used Khan Academy in the classroom a few times for Algebra 1 when doing my student teaching. While the video was playing my mentor says to me "it's so boring" and I said "I know, but they're addicted to TV so they're watching it." For one lesson I came up with what I thought was a great way to teach multiplying polynomials and I said to myself, if Khan doesn't teach it this was, I'm not showing the video. Turns out, he had the same idea so I showed the video. The students got it. But not without me running through a few examples and reiterating the prior knowledge that makes it "nothing new" to them. The video is nice way to introduce the material the first time, but it needs to be repeated by the teacher to make sure everyone in the class gets it.

At one point the video says "I'm going to use magenta because it shows up well." The students in the room were about to yell out "NO STOP IT!" because magenta does not show up when using a video projector in a classroom. Khan also makes jokes to which I pointed out "as a teacher I'm responding to you and making adjustments in response to your feedback, Khan is talking to himself and has no idea what's going on."

I now do tutoring and for my student I have him using Khan Academy. I can see what the site can't. For example, the student is decent at math but his handwriting sucks which is normal. Khan Academy can't see that. I can, so now I have the student work problems using 1/2" grid paper with one number per box. His handwriting is improving and silly mistakes are going down dramatically.

At best, Khan is a supplement to the classroom. It's not a replacement. My goal as a tutor is to get students to understand how to use it to improve their remedial math skills so I can focus on teaching them the new things. When school gets back in session I'll be tutoring a lot more students and working with them using Khan Academy to guide the material as well as working with their current material assigned by their teachers when available.

When I start teaching full time, most likely next fall, I'll be pushing Khan Academy but will not use it in the classroom. It's great for remedial work. It's not for classrooms. And it's certainly no substitute for a teacher.

Mandatory Attendance (2)

giltwist (1313107) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756545)

I can sum up why Khan Academy is so popular in two words: mandatory attendance. To use the age old comparison, broccoli sucks when you are force fed it as a kid, but it can be quite good when you try it voluntarily as an adult. I haven't seen the recent vids, but when it was Khan by himself it was the same old chalk-and-talk you see in so many traditional classrooms, only with less precise terminology and no admitting you don't know the answer in front of the class. There's something to be said for what Khan is doing. It's rather like peer tutoring. It's a great supplement to teachers, but its no replacement. Much like Harry Potter is a great gateway to Lord of the Rings but not a replacement thereof.

AYFKM? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40756607)

These same teachers are making my kid write a report with WIKIPEDIA AS A SOURCE.

Meanwhile, I just encountered a teacher who believes that "word-shape-recognition" is the same thing as "reading". And none of her class can sound out words they've not been taught.

Riiiggghttt.

Why you made tho? (1)

stevegee58 (1179505) | more than 2 years ago | (#40756643)

You mad! You mad! You mad!
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