Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Windows Games On Linux

Hemos posted more than 13 years ago | from the coming-soon-to-a-theater-near-you? dept.

Linux 202

Warrior-GS writes "Transgaming is working on a process that allows Linux users to play Windows games. According to their CEO, Gavriel State: "Essentially, TransGaming's work allows gamers to take off-the-shelf Windows games and run them directly under Linux. It won't run every game out there at first, but 100% compatibility is our long-term goal. To accomplish this, we have been working on a new Linux implementation of the DirectX multimedia APIs. Our work is closely tied with the Wine project -- an Open Source effort to implement the Microsoft Windows APIs on Linux -- in essence, a Windows compatibility layer. Wine is not an emulator in the traditional sense -- it doesn't emulate a CPU or any other hardware -- it loads and executes Windows programs directly on your Linux hardware without the need for any Microsoft code to be installed at all." The whole interview can be found at GameSpy."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#342357)

OS/2 never really had that large of a following, although early on it had a lot of hype which did generate some native applications, most of which were dropped in favor of Windows 3.x.

Don't confuse vocal supporters for a market. (Certain game companies made that same mistake with Linux...)

Linux Game Market Largely a Myth (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#342358)

The actual Linux Game Market consists only of those individual who do not currently purchase Win32 games, who refuse to dual boot or run under emulation.

The mythical Linux Game Market includes those individuals who are already buying Win32 games and are running them via dual boot or Win32/DirectX emulation. The Linux game market largely overlaps the Win32 game market, there are few new customers. A Linux version of a game will generate few new sales, it will primarily replace Win32 sales with Linux sales.

Support Open Gaming Instead! (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#342360)

Slashdot used the wrong icon for this article...it should have been "Bill Borg". Games run this way will never fully exploit the system as native games could...leaving Windows as the 'best' platform to run Windows games.

If you really want a good gaming environment (both for user system choice and programmer enjoyment) support Indrema, and write your games using OpenGL, IP, and as many other open standards and tools as you can. Then, you'll be poised to release on Windows, Linux, MacOS X, QNX, BeOS and whatever other interesting new systems pop up.

Don't get sucked into the Windows food chain - you know who sits at the top! (Plus they can't design system software worth a damn.)

186,282 mi/s...not just a good idea, its the law.

A nice, yet flawed point. (1)

Nick (109) | more than 13 years ago | (#342361)

Look what happened to IBM's OS/2 platform. The windows emulation was so good that native OS/2 applications were never written. And once Microsoft pulled the rug out from underneath IBM with Win32, OS/2 died.

You are correct here, but we need to remember that OS/2 was not open source, and was controlled entirely by a corporate entity, being IBM. OS/2 was in direct competition with Microsoft, and it being a better operating system (in my opinion), it never achieved the user base that Linux does now. Linux also isn't in direct competition with anything.

This is a great thing to happen for Linux because people will still write nice games natively for unix-like operating systems, and large corporations will still write nice games for Windows only, that will soon be able to run on Linux.

Re:What are the licensing terms? (1)

Wastl (809) | more than 13 years ago | (#342364)

According to the homepage, it's the Alladdin Free Software License, which is not considered Open Source if you follow the OS definition.

Essentially, they want to get paid if someone makes money with their software.

Sebastian

This is bad news, I'm afraid (3)

alewando (854) | more than 13 years ago | (#342365)

More games is a good thing, but non-native application support for linux is the last thing we want.

Look what happened to IBM's OS/2 platform. The windows emulation was so good that native OS/2 applications were never written. And once Microsoft pulled the rug out from underneath IBM with Win32, OS/2 died.

If Linux is to thrive in the consumer market, then it must do so on its own merits. Settling for weak Microsoft emulation is a step backwards.

Nothing will replace native support. When native applications are written for a platform, others will decide to start porting to this popular platform. If they only see non-native support, then they won't bother.

Why would you put the effort of writing for two code bases if only one would suffice? You wouldn't; that's obvious. So we'll end up with a world of Windows applications and none for Linux.

This would be fine, if we could trust Microsoft not to change the Win32 API, but can we? They're going to have to switch to a Win64 API soon. Will we be able to catch up?

It'd be better not to tie Linux's future to shoddy emulation efforts. Even if it's not true "emulation" in that sense, it still is vulnerable to the sort of problems that regular emulation is: all Microsoft has to do is change a couple libraries and we're back out in the rain again.

Real Linux Support Now. Don't settle for anything less.

Re:Licensing... (2)

Enahs (1606) | more than 13 years ago | (#342374)

True, which is why I'm hoping this won't be Linux-centric--I run a freer OS than "GNU/Linux".

Re:Wine Whine (2)

Enahs (1606) | more than 13 years ago | (#342375)

Ayep-and here's another [netfirms.com] .



There was a discussion on WINE on kuro5hin [kuro5hin.org] this week. For all the number of people posting crap about the supposed superiority of k5 over /., the k5 crowd sure posted a lot of crap about WINE.



The story asked the following question: instead of hounding companies to port, why not help with WINE? The responses were divided between:



1. WINE doesn't work that great right now

2. I think it's bad 'coz there's no incentive then to write native and/or Free apps



Now #2 I can see, but #1? The story was asking why people don't help improve WINE! Duh! One jerk went so far as to say that all WINE was for was to run Windows programs under Linux. Even when the subject of Winelib came up. Um, duh, Winelib is a library to help make porting easy. Heck, Microsoft products usually get ported to other platforms through such software, though usually commercial software... :-)



This sounds like a great solution because Windows doesn't look to be on its deathbed quite yet, and there's this odd backlash against Linux on the desktop. It's starting to look like we'll be stuck with Windows shrinkwrap and Free/Open clones for a while yet...

Keep lowering those consumer barriers!!! (1)

dfetter (2035) | more than 13 years ago | (#342377)

Done right, this could be a great way for people
to get the stability of Linux along with the stuff
that's not yet getting any porting money. :)

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (3)

dattaway (3088) | more than 13 years ago | (#342378)

Don't dismiss a particular choice of operating system, because of "it had a lot of hype." OS2 did indeed have a vocal base of users and had marketing behind its sales; however, it wasn't hype. OS2 worked. Let me rephrase that: It was reliable. Although the OS2 releases of yesterday are outdated by our standards, businesses still use it. Where I work, it is a good platform for controlling large, complex machines where failure is extremely expensive.

How reliable is it? The OS2 control computers at work have not needed to be rebooted over 5 years since its installation. Not bad.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (2)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 13 years ago | (#342381)

Exactly. Windows 3.1 wouldn't have gotten anywhere if it didn't support DOS apps. Windows 95 wouldn't have taken hold if it didn't run Windows 3.1 apps. Backwards compatibility is essential. But then you have to offer something over and above backwards compatibility -- some sort of value add that makes it worth moving up.
--

Re:Other implications (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 13 years ago | (#342382)

Welcome to the world of file permissions, love bug.

Re:I'm skeptical, but... (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 13 years ago | (#342383)

What TV card do you use? I've got a Hauppage WinTV Go, and XawTV loves it.

Anyone ever heard of background processes? (2)

Jonathan (5011) | more than 13 years ago | (#342385)

For people who actually do work with their machine, rebooting simply isn't an option -- I have simulations running that can take weeks to complete. Making them run slow for a while is okay -- killing them by rebooting is *not* okay.

Re:Embrace and extend (3)

m2 (5408) | more than 13 years ago | (#342390)

One way to handle this would be to pull a Microsoft on Microsoft. Emulate (embrace) DirectX and then extend its functionality in a way that appeals to game developers. Perhaps some easy to use calls that tie more directly into Linux, for improved speed. Developers still get to code to only one API, but they also have an opportunity to use one or two "special" calls to improve performance under Linux.

Hell, no! If you are going to improve on DirectX, improve it on every platform. This "special feature" is exactly the kind of crap NVIDIA pulls with their OpenGL extensions. It works faster/it looks better but now you put the weight on the programmer: either figure out a way to work with and without the "special feature" or tell the player to get himself an NVIDIA card. Fuck it! I don't want to! I choose not to support a company that doesn't support me as a customer. All I want to do is spend US$40 on some stupid game, but the game won't run with my hardware. Well, bad luck, I'm not as happy, move on. Problem is, the day will come when every bloody game I'd like to run will be calling for the bloody card. And why? Because some greedy company not only designed an extension but put a patent on it. That is to say, some greedy company took away from me exactly what makes OpenGL a good thing: it's a well specified standard; it's vendor independent; it the back of your skull doesn't hurt when you read a program that uses it; but more important, it's extensible in such a way that a vendor is free to implement any given extension. That is, if there isn't a patent arround it.

So, no. You don't need to take DirectX and extend it in such a way that your "version" appeals to developers better than Microsoft's "version". If screwing people over is what is takes to make Linux "better", then screw Linux! Free Software is not about getting more people to use it, it's about helping to make better software for people who are willing to help along. It's about giving people the freedom to improve on the software people willingly use. It's not about screwing with some company to force others to move to my camp. If I wanted to do that I'd be writing non-free software to aid people at robbing with the click of a button.

DirectX, Windows Compadibility (2)

UnkyHerb (12862) | more than 13 years ago | (#342397)

A lot of people are going to complain that if DirectX ever works well in linux, it's hurting linux. Really though, if we take [legally] what's around to take from DirectX, we could essentially use the work Microsoft has done (not all of DirectX is horrible, a lot of games look good). Then we could maybe even add on to it and make it an new open programming interface. I dunno, just some thoughts.

Re:DirectX, Windows Compadibility (1)

cronio (13526) | more than 13 years ago | (#342398)

SDL has some of the things DirectX has. Emphasis on some. DirectX is way more than SDL even hopes to be.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (3)

Quarters (18322) | more than 13 years ago | (#342400)

What non-commerical linux community written software that a consumer who buys a pc for games and simple office work is better than what can be had for Windows?

Netscape 6? No. Sorry, IE5 is a better browser. Mail clients? No. They're a dime a dozen on Windows also--and many of those are excellent mail clients. THe same holds true for news readers, ftp clients, and IRC programs.

Office apps? Maybe But people will want to use at home what they use at work. Games? I don't think there are many non-commercial Linux games that hold a candle to any commerical offering (on either Linux or Windows). In the commerical games camp you only have ports of games that already exist on Windows.

So what, if anything, would a Windows user see in non-commercial linux software that would make them want to switch OSes?

Re:Sheer Hubris (1)

Entropy_ah (19070) | more than 13 years ago | (#342401)

I think your missing the point. DirectX was created because there already were too many layres of abstraction. It was very hard under vanilla win32 to directly access hardware. Now you can.
And i dont think that WineX is going to be an extra layre of abstraction, but rather another implementation of the same API.

Sheer Hubris (3)

hugg (22953) | more than 13 years ago | (#342404)


This is insane. DirectX games currently run by the hair of their chinny-chin-chin, can you imagine the horror when yet *another* abstraction layer is added? And can you imagine the dark clouds over the game companies' tech support when they read "Yeah I'm running under Win 98.. i mean.. well, Linux, really..."

Actually, crappy, complicated installation is one of the reasons I don't buy so many PC games anymore. I just don't have time to futz with video drivers, patches, etc. People used to rag DOS games for being incompatible with hardware... have you checked out the README for a Windows game lately?

Re:Sheer Hubris (1)

yomahz (35486) | more than 13 years ago | (#342408)

And can you imagine the dark clouds over the game companies' tech support when they read "Yeah I'm running under Win 98.. i mean.. well, Linux, really..."

I'm pretty sure that anyone who installs/plays games under wine will understand that the gaming companies are not going to support it. I don't know of anyone who's called Blizzard tech support becuase they couldn't get StarCraft to work under wine [mbnet.fi] .

Actually, crappy, complicated installation is one of the reasons I don't buy so many PC games anymore. I just don't have time to futz with video drivers, patches, etc.

And you use Linux? LOL.

have you checked out the README for a Windows game lately?

No, I usually don't need to. I usually don't have any problems at all getting win32 games to run. On the other hand, I almost always have to read the README when installing software on Linux that requires more than a configure;make;make install (or rpm -Uvh).

Regardless, anyone here that would attempt to run win32 games under Linux using wine knows what they are getting into and understand how to install/configure the damn game.

--

A mind is a terrible thing to taste.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (2)

be-fan (61476) | more than 13 years ago | (#342413)

Except that Win32 is entirely irrelevent for this discussion. We're talking DirectX, and that changes significantly every year.

Re:GPL without worthwhile software is worthless (2)

Jace of Fuse! (72042) | more than 13 years ago | (#342425)

...but it would be EVEN BETTER with some of the additional breadth and quality of closed apps out there.

I don't know if that was a cleverly hidden flaimbait or not, but I'll assume it wasn't because for the most part agree.

One of my biggest problems with much of the "Free" software that everybody seems to love so much is that the greater majority of it is worth every penny of the price.

This is esspecially true of games. While there might be one or two high quality free games that accidently slips out once in a while, there aren't a lot of really interesting free projects going about. A handful at best.

Every now and then something really cool [www.starflight3] does pop up -- but progress on such projects moves really slowly and you sometimes wish those free projects would get funding and go commercial just so you'd have a better chance of seeing the project completed.

Once again, I'm not saying free software is bad -- I LOVE free things -- but I'll pay $50 for a good solid game before I'll even think about wasting time downloading 5 stupid Tetris or Boulderdash clones.

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Re:Please get things right (2)

Jace of Fuse! (72042) | more than 13 years ago | (#342426)

WINE sure sounds like emulation to me.

Very strictly, yes.

But considering how most traditional emulation is being done, some would argue that WINE better closely compares to a "Wrapper".

Besides, as the title says, "Wine Is Not Emulation".

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Re:Sheer Hubris (5)

Jace of Fuse! (72042) | more than 13 years ago | (#342428)

This is insane. DirectX games currently run by the hair of their chinny-chin-chin, can you imagine the horror when yet *another* abstraction layer is added? And can you imagine the dark clouds over the game companies' tech support when they read "Yeah I'm running under Win 98.. i mean.. well, Linux, really..."

Actually -- In case you haven't noticed, that apraisal of DirectX hasn't applied since DirectX 5, maybe even as far back as DirectX 3.

Most recently, games for DirectX really make one wonder why everything else about Windows is so bad.

DirectX is probably the single best thing about Windows, and it's actually one damned good game developement API.

Actually, crappy, complicated installation is one of the reasons I don't buy so many PC games anymore. I just don't have time to futz with video drivers, patches, etc. People used to rag DOS games for being incompatible with hardware... have you checked out the README for a Windows game lately?

Yes. And I can't remember the last time I had something that wouldn't run on my fairly typical system (GeForce 2 GTS, Sound Blaster Live, Pentium III 800).

I realize some people have "Less than Optimal" systems for gaming, and some hardware has some pretty bad support for DirectX, but any decent hardware is going to have good DirectX support, and if someone says they constantly have trouble in DirectX games I'd have to question their hardware purchasing decisions more-so than the quality of the API or the games they are buying.

Having a DirectX implimentation for Linux could generally be a GOOD THING. There are many people who only keep Windows around for games.

I'm wondering if Microsoft will try to put a stop to this before it gets too far. But they've yet to (as far as I know) take action against Wine, so maybe they know fighting the beast head on will only make it stronger.

Here's to hope.

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Only new information.... (1)

Mr Thinly Sliced (73041) | more than 13 years ago | (#342430)

As far as I can tell, the only new tidbits of information contained in the article, are the use of SourceForge as their repository mechanism.

I tried the preview with Alice game demo, and was pleasantly suprised, but the frame rate was still sucko compared to under win98.

Its a shame that linux is still light years behind in game dev - I've got Revelator 3d glasses [elsa.com] and i don't think the support for these will be coming anytime soon.....

Anyone ever heard of a dual boot? (1)

selectspec (74651) | more than 13 years ago | (#342431)

This sort of cludge were is a complete waste of time.

Re:Anyone ever heard of a dual boot? (2)

selectspec (74651) | more than 13 years ago | (#342432)

You'll have to purchase this emulator. What's the difference (and by the way, I was advocating piracy)

Re:Sheer Hubris (2)

friode (79255) | more than 13 years ago | (#342433)

Yes. And I can't remember the last time I had something that wouldn't run on my fairly typical system (GeForce 2 GTS, Sound Blaster Live, Pentium III 800).

Yeah, because that seems to be the 'stock' test system nowdays. I had hideous problems getting my on-board sound chip working properly, and I finally gave up and bought an SB Live. EVERYTHING seems to support GeForce/SBLive (including xfree86/gnome). Move from that combo at your peril.

Re:The walls come down..... (1)

barneyfoo (80862) | more than 13 years ago | (#342434)

I don't want to start an argument here, but I'd like to point out that there are other reasons for the average user to use Windows.

*yawn*

Another abstract reference to the "average user". The average user is a complete moron and is assimilated into Microsoft's hegemony. The "linux user" has no reason to use windows other than gaming.

You said you didn't want an argument. ok. I wont start one. But I would like to tell a story. I have a father. He is a lawyer. He uses windows and Corel Office. He has been using windows for the past 5 years. Now, I can tell you with 100% certainty that if he had to *start* again with no prior GUI experience, it would be just as easy for him to use linux as windows. I was at his office today reinstalling his windows operating system because the networking was unreliable and windows update refused to work. After waiting an hour for windows to install, I was telling him about linux. I told him that to install linux (in my case debian) the only time-intensive task is unzipping the actual program files, and for the base operating system, would only take 5 to 7 minutes. He seemed utterly amazed. Ok, so we got windows installed. But now we were faced with strange network behavior on a specific url. I knew this was strange and was a result of some misconfiguration. My dad asked why I couldn't fix it, and I told him that Mircosoft doesn't want me to know what's wrong. It's a closed proprietary OS that microsoft wants to keep dumbed-down. I told him that if it were linux and a specific url was no working, it would be simple and deterministic to figure out the problem. With windows such behavior is completely undocumented.

As it relates to the topic at hand, I think it's fair to say that the only reason folks still use windows is because they've invested so much time in figuring out the totally convoluted way to do simple things. oh, and games. Oh, and microsoft has a monopoly.

Tribes runs under Linux (with WINE) (1)

moller (82888) | more than 13 years ago | (#342437)

The folks over at Linux Tribes [tribalwar.com] have managed to get Tribes running on WINE.

I'm not entirely sure how much hacking it takes to get it to work, but they say the stability is about the same as running Tribes under Windows (as in, Tribes will crash about the same amount whether being run in Windows or WINE).

Completely off-topic, one of the guys who runs LinuxTribes, Bad_CRC, is also one of the guys who helped make one of the "All your base" videos floating around.

Moller

Re:Pointless (1)

Ozwald (83516) | more than 13 years ago | (#342438)

Funny yet true. I set up my old computer for my parents and let them choose between Windows/Linux. The interesting part is that they use Windows for Internet (easier PPP) and reboot into Linux to play the games. Unbelievable how many games are shipped with (trying not to plug) some Linux distributions.

Ozwald

VMWare/FreeMWare? (1)

Ryu2 (89645) | more than 13 years ago | (#342440)

Has anyone given a thought to using VMWare or its free equivalent FreeMWare? In that case, you'd only need to virtualize the 3D hardware, and just use Windows's DirectX itself, not reimplement DirectX altogether.

Not sure how that could impact performance, though.

Wouldn't it be smarter... (2)

frankie (91710) | more than 13 years ago | (#342443)

...to push game programmers not to use DirectX in the first place? Stick to open standards and you can port the games to just about anything.

Try the patch (4)

JohnG (93975) | more than 13 years ago | (#342444)

They already have a patch to wine that I tried quite some time ago. The American McGee Alice demo works just as well under Linux as Windows. (Unfortunately on both systems it crashes.) I haven't tried any other games, but they already have a bit of work done, so I wouldn't call it vaporware.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (3)

emmons (94632) | more than 13 years ago | (#342447)

Native support is nice and all, but if nobody develops for it, it's rather pointless. At least this way Linux can GROW to the point that if an API is developed which runs faster on Linux than DirectX, developers will write games for it.

OS/2 started with a rather large following but then lost it. Linux is starting with (relatively) no following. There's nothing to lose.

----

Re:The walls come down..... (2)

Ravagin (100668) | more than 13 years ago | (#342450)

Games are basically the only reason to still use Windoze

I like some aspects of linux, but I can name several reasons folks still use Windows. User-ease, for one. Microsoft Office (or Corel, i suppose) is another.

I don't want to start an argument here, but I'd like to point out that there are other reasons for the average user to use Windows.

-J

Re:Linux = NO Innovation (1)

sethdelackner (110929) | more than 13 years ago | (#342456)

Now come on. You have to be more subtle if you want some flames.

Re:I'm skeptical, but... (2)

Dark Paladin (116525) | more than 13 years ago | (#342459)

I'm using an ATI TV-Wonder - I like the ability (in the software) to save sequencial (I'm sure that's misspelled) files (like image000.jpg, image001.jpg...). I'll look up XawTV and the Hauppage item - sounds very interesting.
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel

I'm skeptical, but... (3)

Dark Paladin (116525) | more than 13 years ago | (#342460)

Dang, I hope this works. I have two computers in my house - a Pentium 450, running GNU/Linux, and a Pentium-800 running Windows 98 - and the only reason why the Win98 box is in my house is for my game reviews/walkthroughs.

Naturally, there's some hurdles to overcome, like speed optimizations, working through the entire DirectX system and making sure things work the same without Microsoft getting pissed off and trying to sue people for some sort of copyright violation (which is a good reason for these folks to work with the Wine project).

I know some folks are skeptical, but I honestly believe that games are a major issue (not the biggest - user friendly-ness for Bob User and software compatibility, the reason why Macs don't sell as well as Windows, IMHO) for Linux, or any operating systems acceptance, on the desktop.

With great game support (and when when I see some easy-to-use TV-card support for Linux so I can do my console walkthrough stuff), I won't ever have to run Windows again. (And, at the rate that Windows ME and Windows XP are becoming game unfriendly, at least in performance compared to Win98, I can't wait to ditch them).

Of course, I could be wrong.
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel

Re:Is it as feasable as they say? (2)

psin psycle (118560) | more than 13 years ago | (#342462)

There are plenty of directx games. I'd love to be able to play aoe2 under linux. I'd finally be able to get rid of crappy ms software for good. err...

Wine Whine (1)

348 (124012) | more than 13 years ago | (#342464)

Wine is not the way to go. Wine hasn't successfully ported crap. Please no flames, I'm serious. This is somewhat out of my areana, but isn't there a better way to go thatn WINE?

A good idea (1)

Cloud K (125581) | more than 13 years ago | (#342470)

As it is, there just aren't that many people who use Linux at home yet. Try asking people like my parents, and they will just ask "why?". It's more stable, but in their eyes it's more difficult to use because they're used to Windows. If there was a way to run Windows games though, it would be another huge reason for them at least to try it. Until Linux has plenty of users, it's more profitable for the corporates to develop games for Windows. Therefore, this is a good way to keep gamers happy until Linux gets popular enough for native commercial games. Even better in my view, would be to use consoles. Okay so they're less customisable, but I much prefer shoving a DVD into my PS2 and playing the game straight off, to faffing about trying to get it to run on my unique PC hardware.

waste of time (2)

small_dick (127697) | more than 13 years ago | (#342471)

absolute waste of time...linux needs OGL extensions to keep pace with (or surpass dx) as well as quality dev tools and other game apis.

to follow windows, as wine and this project are doing, does nothing but dilute efforts and establish windows and microsoft as the standard.

what a awful waste of time. wine has been around for ages, and will never be able to keep up with redmond's maonkeyshines.

what more evidence to you need? my god, just go clone java in c++ -- the multimedia apis -- you'll be doing linux a much greater favor.

What are the licensing terms? (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342472)

As far as I know Wine is released under X11 license. So these guys may release their code under a propitery license.

So what is the license to thier code? Will we be tied to them for future improvments (like darwin)?

Re:What are the licensing terms? (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342473)

Argh! I didn't see the next link at very the bottom of the article at first sight.

They'll release their code in AFPL (aladin free public license) which is not completely free. You won't be able to make commercial products out of it.

They also talk about subscription licensing. They will steer according to the need of their customers (aka subscribers).

[btw: ie just make me kill one of my download by poping it up at a random time! how can we turn of this crap?]

Re:Wine Whine (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342474)

There is also freemware (now called plex86) available at http://www.plex86.org, which is an open source clone of VMWare.

Re:Yes, thank you! (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342475)

You mean koules [freshmeat.net] is not a Linux game!
You must be joking... :)

Why not make "console" emulators? (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342476)

Making wine compatibility layer is a good thing (TM). But it is painful, and development will take years to complete.

If all we need is running games on linux, why don't we emulate consoles?

Until two years ago the only console available (with good games) was the PlayStation and there existed no emulator for Linux. Even freeware Windows emulators fade away.

The main problem with PlayStation emulators was they had to emulate too many thing (the CPU, the Memory [aka BigEndian], Video hardware, ROM, joystick, cdrom, etc, ...)

But the upcoming consoles (aka XBox) are more similar to the PC. So it may be more feasible to implement a Xbox (or gamecube) compatibility layer than implementing a windows compatiblity layer.

Re:DirectX, Windows Compadibility (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342477)

Then what is SDL for? (SDL is now used in many linux games for windows, etc. compatibility. It is developed by loki)

Re:Why not make "console" emulators? (1)

stikves (127823) | more than 13 years ago | (#342478)

No i mean running comsole games on as native x86 code.

Nice business plan (1)

Drone-X (148724) | more than 13 years ago | (#342484)

I really like these guys business plan. In essence they're getting payed by thousands of people to program.

If they (or another company) did this for applications other than games then I'd seriously consider subscribing. And it wouldn't have to be limitted to programming, people could document or translate too.

The dowside could of course be that the programmers may be tempted not to work at their full capacity but the AFPL license would discourage that and let the subscribers monitor the progress. Another danger would be that a lot of these companies would pop up and nobody would work for free anymore but this is probably a stretch and wouldn't be necessarily bad.

Re:Why not make "console" emulators? (1)

Ig0r (154739) | more than 13 years ago | (#342490)

There's nothing custom about XBox hardware.
That's the point he was trying to make.

--

Re:die M$ (1)

kowpie (158264) | more than 13 years ago | (#342491)

cnet predicted that linux would die and windows would continue to roll on because programers would not divert from money making to help competition come into play in the os world... but cnet is wrong the programers who make the games dont have to do $hit. there is always more then one way to do things ... cnet hasnt learned this yet!!

Re:Anyone ever heard of background processes? (1)

kowpie (158264) | more than 13 years ago | (#342492)

besides that windows cant do multi tasking worth a crap!!!

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (4)

AnswerGuy (164990) | more than 13 years ago | (#342493)

There are millions of apps written for Win32. Microsoft's market exists primarily because of backwards compatibility. MS is never going to do anything that would make their really big customers angry either. There are a lot of custom apps that big companies have written that work fine for them and don't need to be updated. When the Win64 api comes out there will be extremely few people using it, and it will support Win32. Thus anything that will be released in the next few years for the mass market will use Win32.

Look at games until about 5 years ago they still were mostly written for DOS. It will take years before the game companies switch to anything which isn't compatible with Windows 98 and we can be compatible with it rather easily.

Amen to that (2)

yardgnome (190624) | more than 13 years ago | (#342500)

I've made a half-way transition to Linux twice, but always ended up coming back to Windows. And both times the reason was some incredible game that I got hooked on.
I hate owning a system where I can't change *exactly* what I want when I want. I hate owning a system that crashes for inexplicable reasons.
But, in the end, it's the games that bring me back. I can word-process, create presentations, analyze data, etc. in both Windows and Linux. But if I want to unwind with a fun game of Tribes or somesuch, I have to turn to Windows.

---

Re:Another Emulator (2)

autocracy (192714) | more than 13 years ago | (#342501)

True, but Linux users like their games. For many of them, it's the only reason to still dual-boot. Heck, why do you think Loki games is alive?

I can't be karma whoring - I've already hit 50!

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (2)

elefantstn (195873) | more than 13 years ago | (#342502)

You're missing an important point, though: Linux is free. The choice isn't between buying Microsoft's OS and buying IBM's OS, it's between buying an OS and not buying an OS. The only reason I have Windows on my hard drive is to play games; if there were a reliable way to do without it, I'd never buy (or pirate ;) Windows again. OS/2 had to be substantially better to get people to buy it instead, whereas Linux just has to be interesting enough to spend a couple hours getting it installed and getting used to it.

Re:Please get things right (1)

ranessin (205172) | more than 13 years ago | (#342503)

Emulate:

1. To strive to equal or excel, especially through imitation: an older pupil whose accomplishments and style I emulated.
2. To compete with successfully; approach or attain equality with. See Synonyms at rival.
3. Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

WINE sure sounds like emulation to me.

Ranessin

Re:Please get things right (1)

ranessin (205172) | more than 13 years ago | (#342504)

Very strictly, yes.

Very correctly, yes.

Besides, as the title says, "Wine Is Not Emulation".

I believe that's "Wine Is Not an Emulator". In either case, it's wrong.

Ranessin

The Last Shackles (2)

The Spie (206914) | more than 13 years ago | (#342505)

Games are the major and virtually only reason I have right now not to abandon M$ (that and the fact that I have to use Word once in a while). An implementation of DirectX that works seamlessly with Linux may seem to be an impossible dream (IANAC (I Am Not A Coder), but just from the surface it seems that they can't get it done without running into proprietary code somewhere), but if someone can pull it off...oh, man, I'd love it.

I finally was able to break the shackles of Intel by finally going AMD/VIA. Now I'd like to have a Wintel box without the Win or Tel parts in it. Yeah, I can set up a dual boot, but, heck, I'm lazy. I'd rather not have to worry about what to boot into today. The fact is that most people out there are like me in this aspect rather than most of the serious gearheads that populate /., people who aren't able or just don't want to make the effort.

Linux is a niche OS in good part due to games. The majority of games out are for Win (and unlike most people, I haven't had bad performance on ME with games, for some reason). It's a good shortcut into the market. Any project that can do this has my support, and should have the support of every Linux user or wanna-use-but-what-about types.

When I migrated over from Amiga to the Wintel world, I slapped OS/2 on my first few boxen. Loved that damn thing. Bitch to configure, especially for a relative novice, but once it was, it seriously beat Windows all to hell. I only got rid of it when everything started to be made for Win95. There have been a few posts wondering if a game layer for Linux would set up an OS/2 situation. I don't particularly think so. We're only dealing with emulating DirectX, not emulating the entire operating system like OS/2 did. A project like this is less dangerous to Linux than the emulation layer in Mac OSX will be to the production of future Mac apps.

Re:Anyone ever heard of a dual boot? (1)

KarmaBlackballed (222917) | more than 13 years ago | (#342507)

Unless you are advocating piracy, dual booting with a Windows option requires purchasing Windows. Sort of affects the economy of the whole thing don't it?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~

But will it improve games? (1)

KarmaBlackballed (222917) | more than 13 years ago | (#342508)

If companies spend less time re-creating wheels (porting games to different APIs), don't they have more time to improve game play?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~

GPL without worthwhile software is worthless (2)

JohnTheFisherman (225485) | more than 13 years ago | (#342509)

Why are so many people ready to sink a piece of software just because it's not GPL'd? I'd rather have decent closed software that I paid for than a bunch of 'free' crap. That isn't to say free=crap, but I notice a significant absence of quality apps in certain areas for Linux - that's why I'm still spending more time in Windows.

GPL is great, especially for OSs for security reasons, but I urge people to embrace closed, commercial Linux software - there's a lot of great stuff out there that will never be GPL'd. To be perfectly clear for the flame-proned, GPL is great, free software is great, Linux is great, but it would be EVEN BETTER with some of the additional breadth and quality of closed apps out there.

Good for companies, NOT consumers (2)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 13 years ago | (#342511)

Potentially, all this is going to do is discourage gaming companies from making any changes to their game code, because they won't have to actually port anything. This keeps control in the hands of Microsoft with their DirectX API, and even further discourages the use of Mesa or OpenGL.

"OpenGL? Sure, we COULD'VE used it, but heck, even Linux is mostly an OpenGL platform and THEY are buying DirectX games."

And while normally I'd say that competition is a good thing, alternatives aren't exactly being talked about much in Slashdot articles. Compared to DirectX and wine, you don't hear much about the SDL on Slashdot.

What's keeping Microsoft in the driver's seat isn't so much the quality of their software, it's their hold on proprietary APIs and file formats. Sometimes I think all this is going to do is strengthen that. It'll benefit existing companies first and foremost, consumers who want DirectX games second, and efforts like SDL not at all.

Another Emulator (1)

Jucius Maximus (229128) | more than 13 years ago | (#342512)

I like this idea. I would love to play my windows games without having my machine infested with Micros~1 software.

But will this really work? Emulators are not a new thing. Even the best emulators like "Bleem!" for PSX >> PC are still part of a niche market and are not nearly mainstream. What makes you think that this will be any different?

The two main roadblocks for emulators are the level of knowledge required to operate them, and the cost. Now I doubt that this Win32 Games on Linux software will be free. According to the Gamespy interview, they're using a subscription model. Roadblock number 1 is fully operational. (Of course people will priate the software if it's good.) Next, you have to remember that the users of this technology will be a subset of all Linux users. If you can install Linux, you can probably handle the technicalities of this software, so roadblock #1 is really not too large. In comparison with Bleem!, users of the very friendly PSX had to mess with PC 3D accelerator settings and and all kinds of stuff when they're used to slipping ther CD into the PSX box and having it work instantaneously.

But linux, among the general populace of Win32 game players is still a niche technology. Will niche software aimed at a niche of a niche group find a good body of subscribers? I genuinely hope that they can do it because it sounds like great technology, but I seriously doubt that they will get it to work. I am a Win32 gamer and would probably jump on the bandwagon, but I doubt my windows-using friends, even the ones who are technologically capable would migrate to linux to do what they already do on Windows.

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (1)

KernelBloat (229770) | more than 13 years ago | (#342514)

You're wrong. It's about critical mass. If emulation causes enough people to switch to Linux, then there will be a market for Linux games

Finally.... (2)

Calle Ballz (238584) | more than 13 years ago | (#342515)

Everyone I know who is a windows advocate is so because of gaming. The majority of all games are not ported to Linux, and therefore, if you are a heavy gamer, you almost need Windows. Not that I am against windows (Because of my job and it's excess of NT workstations, I've become used to it), I am just for Linux. But getting to my point.... Finally there are no longer going to be arguments that Windows has something over Linux.

Re:Wine Whine (1)

hammock (247755) | more than 13 years ago | (#342516)

There is also a company called Trelos that makes a Win4Lin product. Both VMWare and Win4Lin require a licensed copy of Microsoft Windows. WINE does not, but can use dll's from a licensed copy of Microsoft Windows.

Re:Other implications (1)

hammock (247755) | more than 13 years ago | (#342517)

Wine and the Evolution team are working in parallel to port Microsoft's Virus Transport Protocol (VTP) to Evolution.

CVS access is open.

why (1)

IanA (260196) | more than 13 years ago | (#342519)

who needs windows games when you have nethack? have YOU ever beaten it? nethack is the best game ever

Re:Pointless (1)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 13 years ago | (#342520)

Well - what about all those hot games out there like Red Alert 2?

It really eerks me when my roomate wants to reboot to play a game!

Sure linux comes with a lot of games - which are free, but nothing like the big budget games that those developers are making.

Re:I'm skeptical, but... (1)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 13 years ago | (#342521)

I had to post something else on this topic. sorry.

One thing I noticed is when Doom (one) came out the Mac as a normal lamer system kinda dropped. (look at the numbers i think i'm on to something)

The first time i was in a actual computer store some guy was like "will this run on my mac?" after playing a demo at the store.

I think that guy bought a pc later that day, he was very excited about that FPS. I also heard other people say things like: "Will this run Doom?" and when the guy said not yet... they walked over to the pc's.

Really I'm suprised half these games actually run on Windows. Speaking of which - i can't get Quake to run for anything.

Is it as feasable as they say? (1)

NotAnotherReboot (262125) | more than 13 years ago | (#342522)

I'm really curious if they can get all of these games to run without getting into any legal trouble with Microsoft. I sure hope this isn't vaporware though.

Re:Wine Whine (1)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 13 years ago | (#342523)

Please view these screenshots [godmonkey.com] and then tell me again that Wine doesn't run anything.

Re:Sheer Hubris (1)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 13 years ago | (#342524)

Well, at the current stages at least, anyone who would use WINE for gaming wouldn't be calling tech support. By the time WINE moves to the average user, it will be robust enough to handle almost any application better than Windows itself would. Or so goes the plan.

WINE and the TransGaming patches are not another abstraction layer, I should add; they are an alternative implenetation of Microsoft's DirectX APIs. DirectX does not run on top of the TransGaming patches. It's rather like how Mesa is a replacement for OpenGL.

Re: Alice (2)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 13 years ago | (#342525)

The framerates on most games are equal to the Windows versions, and in some cases actually higher. Alice is an exception because it uses an astronomical number of mutexes. There are literally tens of thousands of locks per frame. TransGaming is working on a solution for this but it will require an overhaul of Wine's mutex handling.

Please get things right (2)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 13 years ago | (#342526)

1) Wine Is Not an Emulator. It is a binary loader and API translator. Windows .EXE files are loaded and executed directly by Wine, without any form of CPU instruction translation involved.

2) TransGaming's patches are not pay-only. The patches are and will always be free. Subscribers simply get to vote on what is the next priority game to get working, and it is a way to donate money directly to the project

Hardly (4)

Edgewize (262271) | more than 13 years ago | (#342527)

Actually, TransGaming has already integrated their DirectDraw patches back into the Wine cvs tree. With the latest release of Wine and the TransGaming patches, I can run Starcraft, Halflife, Diablo II (cracked to remove incompatible copy protection), and Alice. That's hardly vaporware. They've made huge progress in only a few months.

Well, what do I need windows for? (1)

Husaria (262766) | more than 13 years ago | (#342528)

For many Linux users, a program that will let you use Windows games, you won't need Windows ever again. Only for the fact to play those games.
Simply put, playing Windows games on Linux is one of the greatest riddles of Linux. A great obstacle. But it will be overcome.
Wine..well, that's is a good program, but what if, (like me) you can't get it to open up, etc. Then you are in trouble.

Re:Is it as feasable as they say? (2)

geomcbay (263540) | more than 13 years ago | (#342529)

Alice is based on the Quake III engine, meaning it uses OpenGL for the graphics API, not Direct3D. It does use some of DirectX (DirectSound, DirectInput), but I'm fairly sure even these parts can fall back to waveOut and standard Windows input routines..which Wine probably already covers out of the box...So, while I don't think this thing is completely vapor, seeing Alice running on it may not be the greatest test of its ability to provide DirectX compatability on Linux...

Re:Wine Whine (2)

Sigma 7 (266129) | more than 13 years ago | (#342532)

isn't there a better way to go thatn WINE?
There is a company called VMware [vmware.com] , which has made a virtual machine that allows Windows to run under Linux. It is a commercial application, but it is one of the most reliable programs out there.

Re:Is it as feasable as they say? (1)

ZaneMcAuley (266747) | more than 13 years ago | (#342533)

As far as gaming is concerned, who cares what hardware and software the thing sits on. Gaming is about the experience.

Awesome! Just what Linux needs! (2)

glrotate (300695) | more than 13 years ago | (#342534)

About time. The task of implementing DirectX on top of native interfaces will be a moderately difficult task, but with proper funding not impossible.
What I find interesting is the buisness model. Subscription based services seem to be the only model that works, and hopefully we'll see movement in that direction to really push some of the open source projects ahead.

The walls come down..... (2)

Neverrtfm (303783) | more than 13 years ago | (#342536)

Cool. Games are basically the only reason to still use Windoze. If new users could bring their favorite games to Linux, it would remove the main reason peeps are scared. I'm looking forward to not having to have dual-boot to get my gaming on.

Other implications (1)

banuaba (308937) | more than 13 years ago | (#342540)

This will also allow you to run MS Outlook...

They are trying to implement the virus execution layer from MS outlook, so here it comes!
Welcome to the world of the love bug, linux.


Brant

Re:Is it as feasable as they say? (1)

ryants (310088) | more than 13 years ago | (#342541)

I sure hope this isn't vaporware though.

You can download code and patches for wine right now. And I've seen (but lost the link to) screenshots of Alice running with their system.

Far from vapourware :)

Ryan T. Sammartino

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (1)

ryants (310088) | more than 13 years ago | (#342542)

I completely agree.

Rather than emulation efforts, I'd rather see people spending their time writing e-mails, filling out surveys (like this one for NBA Live! [ea.com] , for example), and filling out petitions (like this one [tuxgames.com] ) telling publishers that you want Linux games. "Putting your money where your mouth is", so to speak, is also a good way to urge publishers along: go buy some Loki [lokigames.com] products, for example.

Trust me, such things do get attention.

Ryan T. Sammartino

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (1)

ryants (310088) | more than 13 years ago | (#342543)

However, if you put yourself in the developers perspective

I guess you:

  • Didn't check out my user info :)
  • Missed my point

Ryan T. Sammartino

Re:This is bad news, I'm afraid (2)

linuxpng (314861) | more than 13 years ago | (#342546)

Somehow you think fighting fair is going to help you win. Why would most people want to come to linux? Not because SAMBA is faster than Windows File and Print sharing. Christ.. They don't care about how awesome apache is or how much better lotus domino server runs on linux than AIX or whatever.. The consumer buys a pc for games and simple office work. I see this as an excellent opportunity to bait a bunch of people over here, get them poking around with non-commercial linux community written software and driving home the fact that linux free apps are generally better than the ones companies charge so much for. I fail to see how getting one more person educated on this platform is a *bad thing*. OS/2 didn't fail because it had winos2 compatibility, it may have multitasked better, it may have handled alot of things better but no one (cept os2 zealots) thought it was more enjoyable to use than windows 95. I mean really.. go back and look at os2 again and compare it to 95. What's the point? Linux has potential and the only thing we need to do is get more people installing and monkeying around with it.

Re:VMWare/FreeMWare? (2)

linuxpng (314861) | more than 13 years ago | (#342547)

It would drag performance to it's knees. On a p3 500 mhz machine with 380 megs of memory windows runs in vmware like a pentium 100. I couldn't even imagine how terrible hardware acceleration would be in a VM. It's perfect for running some low overhead business apps but there is a reason vmware is on release 2 and has *NO* support for either directx and dvd playback.

Re:Wine Whine (1)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 13 years ago | (#342549)

Wine hasn't successfully ported crap.

Yes it has! Just look at all the stuff you can run!

Microsoft Visual Basic 3.0
RealPlayer
AOL
Solitaire

Now, if that isn't successfully ported crap, I don't know what is.

Re:Embrace and extend (1)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 13 years ago | (#342550)

GNU DirectLinux API?

Nah, I've got a better name. It would run on the X Window System, allowing more or less direct access to video hardware.

How about X-Direct!

Re:Wine Whine (2)

Spy Hunter (317220) | more than 13 years ago | (#342551)

There are several problems with VMWare (and projects like it, such as the really cool and free Plex86 [plex86.org] ) that make it unsuitable as a gaming platform.

First of all, and possibly most important, VMWare doesn't support DirectX, making it useless for the vast majority of Windows games. I don't know if this is because the VMWare developers don't care about games, or if it's actually not possible to run DirectX in VMWare (it may not be possible for technical reasons, and 3D accelerator cards may not be possible to use either).

Second, because of the method of emulation used, VMWare and projects like it will always be slower than natively running the code.

Third, VMWare requires a copy of Windows in order to run Windows. TransGaming's free DirectX implementation, along with WINE, completely eliminates the need to buy Windows. This isn't really a problem now, because everyone has Windows, but maybe in the future...

Pointless (5)

UltraBot2K1 (320256) | more than 13 years ago | (#342552)

Why would anyone want to play Windows games. I can already play thousands of variations of Solitaire and Minesweeper on Linux.

That pinball game that comes with Win2K is kind of cool, though.

What you say? (1)

LX.onesizebigger (323649) | more than 13 years ago | (#342553)

It's not a new thing for people to desire to drive both cars and motorcycles on the same roads, and really, is it so strange?

In a perfect world, portability would really be just that, but, just in case anyone missed the news, it is not. However, building layers to translate this into that is not close enough to the core of things. The end result will always be analogous to Babelfish translations in quality.

Instead, would it not be better to get developers on all levels engaged in projects to move to more portable programming solutions, including Java, and to take the steps with those environments to make them serve up to the needs of the gaming industry?

I am no expert on the subject, but these are my thoughts. I would like to hear counterarguments and/or other thoughts on the subject.

die M$ (1)

supagreg1 (324743) | more than 13 years ago | (#342555)

i use adobe apps, and play games. My profession makes it so I MUST use adobe apps. Yes there are alternatives in the Linux world, but I don't care what anyone says, Gimp is no photoshop! Nevermind, image ready, illustrator, etc.. BUT! I would probably make due if gaming was possible. The biggest question for the success of this project in my mind is how big of a performance hit would you be taking? The hardcore gamer does everything in his/her power to eek out that last FPS. This would not help that cause. But the concept of actually having a viable choice and alternative to M$windoze is very appealing. Even at such a high cost. One thing is certain.. This is one of the many steps necessary to get the masses to switch. I have been ready to dump windoze for YEARS. But I have needs. Deal with them and I will drop windoze like a bad habit.

Embrace and extend (5)

Canonymous Howard (325660) | more than 13 years ago | (#342556)

One way to handle this would be to pull a Microsoft on Microsoft. Emulate (embrace) DirectX and then extend its functionality in a way that appeals to game developers. Perhaps some easy to use calls that tie more directly into Linux, for improved speed. Developers still get to code to only one API, but they also have an opportunity to use one or two "special" calls to improve performance under Linux.

Over the course of time, as more and more of these special functions are added, developers will find that they are doing more and more stuff that is specific to Linux. Not because they have to, but because it improves performance and gives them a higher framerate in the Linux benchmarks.

In the fullness of time, they might find themselves stepping entirely away from DirectX on Linux and moving to the GNU DirectLinux API. Purely for performance reasons, of course, and because they've already got enough Linux-specific code that this is just one more small step.

From there it's only a short step to coding a port entirely for Linux.

Companies are notoriously short sighted. Appealing to them to make a radical change because it will benefit them in the long term is a pointless endeavor. Instead, give them 50 small changes, each with definite short term benefits, that when taken together arrive at the same place as the one radical change.

Sounds like me... hmm. (1)

Aiken Matienzo (411615) | more than 13 years ago | (#342557)

Well, this is fine and dandy, but I won't use it. I'm with most of the people here who disagree that an application layer will bring any good to the Linux platform (if not hurt it). I prefer native binaries to run instead of having to put them through an emulator/application layer. It's just my preference and two cents worth.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?