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Ethernet Sets To Bridge The Last Mile

timothy posted about 13 years ago | from the no-man-that's-*first*-mile dept.

The Internet 177

sacremon writes: "An article in EETimes reports on a recent meeting to finally bring Ethernet to the home user directly, rather than using broadband technology like DSL or Cable. At this point, they're only in the planning stages, and they don't expect to see implementation till sometime in 2003. Nonetheless, I would love to have a 100Mbps/full duplex line direct to the house. I can see the self help manual now -- 'OSPF and BGP for Dummies.'" Ethernet could bring good rates (for both data and dollars, if this article is correct), but I'm still looking forward to fiber running straight into the basement.

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Athentication? (1)

ConsumedByTV (243497) | about 13 years ago | (#340026)

I would hate to see what would happen when someone on the block rounds up all the cables in the middle of the night to dos fbi.gov from that type of connection. Can you just imagine the weapon of distruction you could posses? That would be damn funny. It better be switched or that would cause some problems as well...

Fight censors!

It's been done (5)

Kalak (260968) | about 13 years ago | (#340027)

This has already been done in Blacksburg, VA for the Blacksburg Electronic Village [bev.org] . As a result of this project which started a few years ago, a number of apartment complexes have gone to adding ethernet to units. $30/month for ethernet rocks! (Too bad I had to move out, but iit was great while it lasted for me.)

fiber to the basement? (3)

mach-5 (73873) | about 13 years ago | (#340028)

Actually, the phone companies are working on getting fiber right up to the curb in front of your house. Problem is, they aren't gonna actually run it in to your house. I'm not quite sure why this is, but I can speculate that it has something to do with competing with DSL. My guess would be that the phone companies are going be ready to put fiber in your house, but are going to keep selling DSL until there is something else to compete with fiber.

The Local Hack (1)

GoodWIL (93025) | about 13 years ago | (#340029)

Great, now I'm not only vulnerable to repeated port scans from any moron with a TCP/IP connection, but from my local community LAN also. Gives me a real sense of community, though.

This technology might also take file sharing to a whole new level...

And one more good thing - now my friends and I could share the cost of 1 net connection between all of our computers if we live in the same local area. I love it.

Damn. (2)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340030)

I was looking forward to Arcnet to my house.

It's getting to be fairly common in California. (2)

jcr (53032) | about 13 years ago | (#340031)

A number of apartment buildings around here (Santa Clara) are buying T1's and serving DHCP in each unit. It's becoming something that they feel they have to offer, just like Cable TV. -jcr

OSPF and BGP (4)

Phizzy (56929) | about 13 years ago | (#340032)

Ok.. so I'd like to have ethernet or fibre into my house, but I _still_ wouldn't need to use OSPF or BGP. OSPF is a medium-to-large network routing protocol, which cannot be used on the internet, and is not suited for home use unless you have a _REALLY LARGE_ network at home, otherwise it would be a waste or resources.. static routing with a defualt route is much more efficient. And unless you plan on having more than one 100mb eth line or fibre line pulled into your house, and buying a router which can handle something around 200,000 routes (the current internet routing table x2, one view from each provider), the BGP isn't going to do you any good.. BGP is only helpful for a multi-homing situation.

SO.. do you research on your routing protocols.. you'd more likely need PPPoverEthernet for dummies, or maybe Routing for Dummies.


Would you get 100mb? (2)

Sc00ter (99550) | about 13 years ago | (#340033)

I don't know if you'd get a 100mb line into your house for so cheap. Just because they can do it doens't mean they will. Most cable modems do 10megs both ways, but most cable companies cap them at a much lower speed. I belive the DOCSIS standard will let them go up to 30megs both ways.

So just because the possibilty exsists don't expect to get it for dirt cheap right away. It's real easy to cap bandwith on a switch. And they will do it.


Ethernet runs over fiber, too. (2)

hamjudo (64140) | about 13 years ago | (#340034)

Once ethernet becomes a common last mile solution, fiber will surely be an option when copper can't go the distance and/or provide the bandwidth.

Ethernet over copper maxes out at 1 Gigabit. Ethernet over fiber is available at 1 and 10 gigabits today, 40 gigabits this year and 160 gigabits really soon now.

Some people may just get fiber for distance reasons.

Re:fiber to the basement? (3)

Evil Grinn (223934) | about 13 years ago | (#340035)

My guess would be that the phone companies are going be ready to put fiber in your house, but are going to keep selling DSL until there is something else to compete with fiber.

My understanding was that if the phone lines in your neighborhood have been replaced by fiber, then you must use IFITL instead of DSL. And of course the phone company are the people who will provide IFITL.

Re:fiber to the basement? (2)

gabriel_aristos (265988) | about 13 years ago | (#340036)

BellSouth is doing this in some new subdivisions. The crappy part about it is they cap you at about 1.5megabit/sec d/l and 128k u/l, and force you to use PPPoE.


Gimme!! (1)

ScumBiker (64143) | about 13 years ago | (#340037)

Ech, I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard. Now, what was I going to say? Oh yea. Getting actual ethernet to the house would not be much different than DSL or cable. Faster and cheaper, probably, but realistically what do you get? A connection to a network and an IP address(es). The speed capability of Ethernet though. 100mbs Internet connection. Cheap hosting solutions. Anyone hear about pricing?

Dive Gear [divingdeals.com]

Re:basement? (1)

mindstrm (20013) | about 13 years ago | (#340038)

Why? For the purposes you want ot use it for, copper cables are just as adequate. Where you really win out with fiber is either long-distance, or extreme-bandwidth per strand, neither of which you will be using in your house.

Re:The Local Hack (1)

the_Brainz (308534) | about 13 years ago | (#340040)

"Great, now I'm not only vulnerable to repeated port scans from any moron with a TCP/IP connection, but from my local community LAN also."

You do run a firewall, right? If not, try Tiny [cnet.com] . It's just one step up from ZoneAlarm, and so much smaller. You should probably ignore the CNet luzer votes though. You might also find this [grc.com] interesting.

That's assuming you are satisfied with software.

Re:Ethernet runs over fiber, too. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340041)

Ummmm, 10GE will be ratified some time this year, so interoperable cards for routers _may_ be available this year. 40GE is still in the lab, and none of the major vendors are talking about OC768 cards this year. 160GB through a single wavelength has not yet been sucessfully proven in a lab that I've seen, and I suspect even the biggest data pushers in the world won't find an economically feasible use for it for quite some time. Besides, last time I looked a 10GB interface for a Cisco was over $100,000. Not really consumer technology, yet...

Solves nothing. (3)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340042)

Great. So now they're going to dig up concrete and run antiquated CAT-5 to my house.

This is a complete waste. The cabling itself is not causing the logistical nightmare of the last mile, digging up that concrete ($$) is what's bringing us down. (IIRC, CAT-5's nominal length doesn't even come close to a mile anyway ;))

That solution that is evolving with competition is the most obvious, and most profitable; utilizing existing infrastructure to get down the last 'mile.' -- be it over telephone, cable, or powerlines -- or a combination of the three.

Digging isn't an option, and unfortunately neither is wireless. I would dig it (no pun intended) if the power companies in the US began to put whatever connectivity into their substations and fed us 2mbs+ power-line networking.

This would also push JINI, etc. into my household devices - if your TV can get online through the same socket it gets its power, it may actually begin to have useful networking features (ie. program channel 82 to browse to so-and-so URL. Maybe the URL for my baby monitor, whatever.)

Think about it. If you want to talk in private about the commercial aspects of anything mentioned, let me know. ;)

Jason (jfisher AT feroxtech.com)

Pooh!! (1)

nileshch (194481) | about 13 years ago | (#340043)

What's so new on this? Its already been done here in Bombay. Gee!! Besides a 2Mbps Internet line shared by 200 people, I can nfs mount my 8 gig mp3 album to share with my friend 4 miles away on a 10Mbps LAN!!!

Re:OSPF and BGP (1)

gabriel_aristos (265988) | about 13 years ago | (#340044)

Easy there, turbo... he was just making a funny. I can just see it though, on a call to tech support:

"I'm a little confused about configuring my 'modem', am I supposed to set it up as an ABR or an ASBR? And what is an LSA, anyway?"

OSPF For Dummies, I love it!

Umm.. Ethernet at home is quite common in sweden.. (4)

_GNU_ (81313) | about 13 years ago | (#340045)

My neighbourhood has a fiber backbone linking ~50 Cisco 1924 switches providing us with ethernet access.. 4 neighbourhoods here have 100Mbit and some, like my neighbourhood have 10Mbit.. 3 neighbourhoods even have fiber in their walls and you get a fiber nic in the package when signing up... wellwell..
All neighbourhoods are also interconnected in a fiber MAN... Nice for them dvdrips ;)

This is Borlänge, in Sweden...

Hope you get your ethernet in the states soon so we can bring that transatlantic bandwidth to it's knees ;)

// _GNU_

Good! (1)

Arethan (223197) | about 13 years ago | (#340046)

I'm glad someone is taking the initiative to back away from broadband and move back towards baseband. IMHO broadband has too much of a tendancy to create higher ping times in online games. (I'm a bit of a hipocrit here though. I can't live without my cable modem...at least until I can get a straight ethernet connection. heh)

Why stop at the computer or basement? (2)

mizhi (186984) | about 13 years ago | (#340047)

I won't be satisfied until I get a permanent, wireless nic implanted into the front of my skull. Just imagine tests with that... "Damnit, google is down and I can't remember the algorithm....

Repost non-anon: Solves nothing. (1)

jfisherwa (323744) | about 13 years ago | (#340048)

Repost non-anon, my apologies:

Great. So now they're going to dig up concrete and run antiquated CAT-5 to my house.

This is a complete waste. The cabling itself is not causing the logistical nightmare of the last mile, digging up that concrete ($$) is what's bringing us down. (IIRC, CAT-5's nominal length doesn't even come close to a mile anyway ;))

That solution that is evolving with competition is the most obvious, and most profitable; utilizing existing infrastructure to get down the last 'mile.' -- be it over telephone, cable, or powerlines -- or a combination of the three.

Digging isn't an option, and unfortunately neither is wireless. I would dig it (no pun intended) if the power companies in the US began to put whatever connectivity into their substations and fed us 2mbs+ power-line networking.

This would also push JINI, etc. into my household devices - if your TV can get online through the same socket it gets its power, it may actually begin to have useful networking features (ie. program channel 82 to browse to so-and-so URL. Maybe the URL for my baby monitor, whatever.)

Think about it. If you want to talk in private about the commercial aspects of anything mentioned, let me know. ;)

Jason (jfisher AT feroxtech.com)

Re:It's been done (3)

rearden (304396) | about 13 years ago | (#340049)

Not only has 100Mbs ethernet been done but two appartment complexes in Blacksburg do have fiber to the apartments. While the idea seemed good at the time the cost for the resedents has proved to be too high (cost of hubs/ switches/ NICs) so we quit doing the fiber. They complained that their friends just needed a $20 NIC (that most had from being in the dorms) and that they had to purchase more expensive fiber cards. In the end we quit wiring with fiber and went to copper.

WTF? (5)

GodHead (101109) | about 13 years ago | (#340050)

I'm still looking forward to fiber running straight into the basement

So you're telling us that Fast Ethernet is too slow for you? Good lord man, how much pr0n do you need?


Re:Would you get 100mb? (3)

Arethan (223197) | about 13 years ago | (#340051)

30Mbps is correct. DOCSIS does require that all compliant modems be capable to delivering this throughput for _downstream_. The upstream can vary from 320 Kbps to 10 Mbps. I used to work for a cable company in their broadband internet department. They capped their modems at 128kb upstream, and I have yet to find a cable provider that lets their modems run wide open. Better to cap the throuput in the firmware, and squeeze as many customers as you can into an OC192. At least, that's the apparent trend.

http://www.cabledatacomnews.com/cmic/cmic3b.html has a quick list of the DOCSIS specs.

Please, not on Copper! (2)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 13 years ago | (#340052)

To whomever may be doing this implemenation:
Please don't do this with copper. You're going to have to run new cable anyway. Cat 5 cable is very expensive too, and with the distance limitations involved you're going to have to spend more on repeaters than on wire if you go copper anywhere near 100Mb. Please consider fiber instead. You won't be locked into an obsolete standard, it'll be cheaper in the long run [no pun intended] and you'll be able to sell alot more services over it in the future.
Thank you,
the world

Already being done (4)

TheBrez (1748) | about 13 years ago | (#340053)

Funny, why wait for 2002/2003? McLeodUSA's ATS project is doing this right now in Cedar Rapids, IA. Anywhere from 256K to 7192K upstream and downstream (half-duplex). Price on a 7Mb connection is comparable to a T1 from the ILECs. If you're in the area and interested in more info about it, contact sales. I'm just one of the techies who makes it work. :-)

Re:The Local Hack (1)

Lars Arvestad (5049) | about 13 years ago | (#340054)

EtherNet to the home is being deployed in large scale here in Sweden right now. Best of all, my neighbourhood is scheduled to be done in April. Rumour has it that you will automatically get your own virtual private network over the LAN. So my neighbours will not have an advantage over other 31337 hackers on the Net.


Re:Would you get 100mb? (1)

ConsumedByTV (243497) | about 13 years ago | (#340055)

When you say cap in firmware are you saying the cap is in software at the physical location? What is to stop someone from dumping the firmware and changing a few bytes?

Fight censors!

IPv6 (2)

stomv (80392) | about 13 years ago | (#340056)

With ethernet to the home, and Internet use spreading horizontally (more end users) and vertically (more businesses setting up LANs and other multiple IP-grabbing sub networks),

Should we expect an IEEE move to IPv6, and when?

Re:Please explain. (2)

Phizzy (56929) | about 13 years ago | (#340057)

OSPF is a link-state protocol, rather than a distance vector protocol.. these are the two basic types of protocols. Basically, LS is like having a map of routes, from which you can determine the best path to a given destination, whereas distance vector is like having directions.. When Link State Databased get really large, they get unmanageable.. if you tried to run the internet on OSPF, every time a route changed, you would have to recalculate the LSD into the routing table, using the shortest-path algorithm, which is very processor-intensive.. and besides, since you have to keep a LS database as well a a routing table, you would need roughly 2x the memory.. BGP is a distance vector protocol (well.. some would say path vector, but we won't go there), which scales VERY well, so it is what is being used on the internet, but it is such a robust protocol, you need a large router to run it, and it only really matters if you have 2 different paths to take, which BGP can differentiate between (multi-homed), rather than just one connection.. (single-homed).. when you are single-homed, BGP is just a waste.


Re:Would you get 100mb? (1)

Sc00ter (99550) | about 13 years ago | (#340058)

There's encryption and stuff to check it. Also the modem is set to boot from a bootp server located at the cable company that has a key also to check for authentication. That bootp packet tells the modem what the cap is for.

I also used to work for a cable company and many employees were in the exception list for capping, and ended up with uncapped modems. I was not one of the lucky few :-(

As with anything, there are ways around it, some of them are based on bugs in the code, others are hardware hacks, but like any cable company owned equipment it's stupid to mess with. And such hacks are beond this slashdot story.


Etherial Vaporware (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about 13 years ago | (#340059)

I haven't seen any business cases, but I'm sure that broadband to the home would make money. Yet, my unscientific survey says that for every person with working Cable/DSL/Sattelite service I've heard of, there are another two who've enjoyed a prolonged tooth extraction.

Earthlink said that they would have Covad install DSL, but Covad said that Verizon had to rejigger the phone line. So Verizon says that I am at the outer range of the phone box. So Covad said that, well, they could go ahead and do the install and see if it works. So I said 'cancel my DSL order, let me know when this technology is ready.'

Ethernet to the hacienda would be swell. Please infrom me when actually available for install, and nary a moment sooner.

Re:fiber to the basement? (2)

autocracy (192714) | about 13 years ago | (#340060)

They do this for the same reason that they don't run phone lines into your house. You're just so used to everybody having lines and the builders of people's houses doing that work at the same time as everything else. In fact, no utility does any work past their meter or switch box - not the water company, the phone company, the electrical company, or the cable company - at least not without you paying extra for it.

I can't be karma whoring - I've already hit 50!

I want more (5)

BroadbandBradley (237267) | about 13 years ago | (#340061)

current cable modem technology based around the DOCSIS [cablemodem.com] standard can give you up to 38Mbps downloads and 10 Mbps uploads. Cable companies currently cap that potential to about 1/10th of that. The Coax cable coming into your house has a 'bandwidth' of 750Mhz and each TV channel uses 6Mhz slots. Cable modems use 1 slot upstream and one slot downstream, meaning about 12Mhz out of the 750Mhz is used for your data connection. Digital TV boxes now can stuff about 10 TV channels into one 6Mhz slot. Obviously most of that 750Mhz is used for a broadcast medium.
Cable vendors can easily scale this approach to take away from 'broadcast' and move to 'download TV' where you could open up a guide and see what's on for the day and then pull a TIVO to download the show only if it's requested. in theory, this would allow them to dedicate more of that 750Mhz into Data-like connections and to provide that 38Mbps to anyone who wants it using the equipment currently installed in your home(if you already have a cable modem). think about 750Mhz divided into 6Mhz slots gives you 125 slots at a potential of 38Mbps per slot you come up with some 4,750Mbps downloading potential. Of course this approach would change the way people watch TV and fly in the face of traditional broadcast networks, but technology wise, the Cable providers are already there.
apllications? well I already stream my music in from the net at 128kbps, and downloading the latest Mozilla only takes a few minutes. Getting a copy of a new Linux distibution as ISO images (650Mb) still takes awhile.
still, I want More
currently I'd like more upstream to be able to do DV quality Video conferencing. I'd like more speed to be able to watch DVD quality video from the net like I stream my music today. DVD quality video can not yet be had with 100Mbps ethernet connection. I'd like to see them shoot for Gigabit ethernet to my house, I really need it.

Re:OSPF and BGP (1)

wiZd0m (192990) | about 13 years ago | (#340062)

I _still_ wouldn't need to use OSPF or BGP. OSPF is a medium-to-large network routing protocol, which cannot be used on the internet, and is not suited for home use unless you have a _REALLY LARGE_ network at home, otherwise it would be a waste or resources

It's obvious this guy does not play Quake!

Re:Please explain. (2)

_ganja_ (179968) | about 13 years ago | (#340063)

I think he means that due to the way OSPF builds neighbor relationships and the fact that LSAs get flooded throughout an area, it's not practical to use it in a very large scale network such as the Internet. So, it can be used on the Internet and of course is the IGP of choice for many ISPs but it just wouldn't scale to be the *main* routing protocol of the Internet, it wasn't ever designed for this anyway. Imagine 100,000 LSAs that needed to be refreshed every 30 mins :-)

I'm fairly sure that the poster of the article didn't *actually* mean we would actually all have to run OSPF or BGP to have ethernet to our homes but it was an attempt at a bit of a joke.

japan (2)

Alien54 (180860) | about 13 years ago | (#340064)

Someone mentioned in a comment in the past week just this sort of thing happening in japan. 100mb access to homes for $40/month

Between this and all of the other tech toys that never seem to make it to the rest of the planet, it sort of makes one jealous

Re:Athentication? (1)

Deamos (108051) | about 13 years ago | (#340065)

That's funny, I was just thinking of something similar to this.
Really, what controls will there be so that we do not start seeing DoS attacks from the deepest most firey (sp?) corners of hell? I personally would LOVE to be able to get a 100 Mbp/s connection to my house, but the potential threat to the servers I run at work makes me very uneasy..

Re:basement? (2)

Muad'Dave (255648) | about 13 years ago | (#340066)

Why? For the purposes you want ot use it for, copper cables are just as adequate. Where you really win out with fiber is either long-distance, or extreme-bandwidth per strand, neither of which you will be using in your house.

Two words: "Copper Conducts." or "Lightning Strike." or "A Car-hits-pole-and-powerline-crosses-data-lines."

I would feel much better with a nice optoisolated fiber line into my house. I cringe every time we have a thunderstorm 'cause my ISDN router is hooked to a 2 mile long antenna asking for inductive (or worse, conductive) surges.

IP v6 better get here soon then. (3)

Domini (103836) | about 13 years ago | (#340067)

For permanent connection and fixed IP addresses one thing that is important is to pre-allocate IP addresses in such a way as to allow future expansion. Thus it will be important to allocate at least a class C (256 nodes) to every home.

So, I think it's going to be imperative for IP v6 to become more utilised soon.

Re:Already being done (1)

KRC KUMARI 1 (411986) | about 13 years ago | (#340068)

Actually the local Girl Scout office is using that technology and they love the connection. If you ever want a case study in "those things should not work like they do" the ATS project is one to look into.

Re:It's been done (2)

GrandCow (229565) | about 13 years ago | (#340069)

I'was there last year, living in the Electronic Village. One of the problems with having so many ethernet lines running, with very few people that actually know what's going on, is the horrible service. The lines would randomly stop functioning, and access was very, very slow.

I'm all for ethernet right into the home, but just getting the lines out there isn't gonna solve the problem, we have to make sure that theres enough competent people running the whole thing to make sure that it actually serves a god purpose.


Re:Please explain. (3)

_ganja_ (179968) | about 13 years ago | (#340070)


BGP *is* a path vector routing protocol as it provides a vector to a path and does NOT use distance. RIP uses a distance in hop count, BGP uses the path in as_path. Path vector, period not "some might say".

Every time a route changed you would need to run the SPF algorithm? Nonsense. Its LSA not LSD, I think LSD is what you must be taking. Re-read the CCNA book again.

You need a large router to run BGP eh? I've had full dual views running on a 2611 (lowend router).

Phizzy, go back to the books and study harder, you are getting some things very mixed up, you are comparing BGP with OSPF directly. This is like comparing apples and oranges, OSPF or another IGP is generally required for running BGP. Running BGP when you are single homed is a waste? What happens when you are single homed with your own AS, how do you advertise routes to your up stream providor? This is very very common situation especially with companies that want flexability in moving ISPs.

Ganja the CCIE.

Re:It's getting to be fairly common in California. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340071)

I hear horror stories about that...like this one building that had its ethernet out for six weeks and no one, building managers included, knew who to contact to get it repaired.

Re:Please explain. (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340072)

Of course you can run BGP on a 2600, but don't expect anyone to think you're sane if you're doing that for a customer/company that actually needs some kind of powerful routing ability.

at least use the 3600 w/ a RPS, so you have some power redundancy!

Re:Already being done (2)

cyber-vandal (148830) | about 13 years ago | (#340073)

Heh, don't mention Girl Scouts around here. ATS' bandwidth will be suddenly be flooded with a million 'resume.doc' files.

Your home ethernet probably WILL travel on fibre.. (1)

Glasswire (302197) | about 13 years ago | (#340074)

The ethernet Layer 1 technology that will deliver it to your house would probably be 100FX (100Mb over fibre or 10FL (10Mb over fibre). Unless you less than 100 Mb from the distribution point UTP (unshielded twisted pair) won't work and needs to be better protected (conduits, etc) than mulitmode fibre which, at FDX, could be 2km from the distribution point.

Re:Please explain. (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340075)

OSPF is an interior gateway protocol (IGP), and is meant to be used internally for medium to large networks (NOBODY SHOULD BE USING RIP! ICKY! NO!)

BGP is an exterior gateway protocol (EGP), and is meant to be used as a routing protocol between internetworks (AS's, autonomous systems for OSPF networks, as well as BGP networks for that matter.)

it's kind of like the difference between astroturf and carpeting; each is meant for a different area of your house- the astroturf is outside, the carpet inside.

Hope that helps!

Fibre to the Basement is no cure-all! (1)

GeekDork (194851) | about 13 years ago | (#340076)

Here in good ol' Germany the at the time only TelCo thought it was smart to have fibre lines running all the way to the customer. It was meant to carry phone calls and stuff (most of all, it was a PR gag, though). Turns out that what was buried 5ft deep isn't suitable for high speed communications or even 56k modems, so in order to have those folks equipped with fast connections, they'd have to rewire whole neighbourhoods and exchange transcievers on both ends.

Internal competition? (2)

BlueUnderwear (73957) | about 13 years ago | (#340077)

> I'm not quite sure why this is, but I can speculate that it has something to do with competing with DSL.

You think this is bad? Here in Luxembourg, the P&T (national telecom operator) doesn't roll out DSL in certain places for fear of competing with its (much more expensive) leased line offering. Kirchberg, which already has fiber-to-the-curb, never will get DSL, for fear that all the banks located there will drop their leased-line subscription and get DSL instead.

Re:basement? (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340078)

Don't forget that if you have copper running into your house, you can't be fully TEMPEST-compliant :P

because shielding your house from EMI and Van Eck phreaking is that important... I read in one of winn schwartau's books that it's actually illegal for citizens to shield their houses or dwellings in such a fashion, does anyone know more on that?

Re:No, it hasn't been done (1)

Kalak (260968) | about 13 years ago | (#340079)

Having an apartment LAN connected to the net via broadband isn't how it's happening in this case. Bell Atlantic combined with Virginia Tech and other sposors to give a true backbone level connection (equivalent to a T3 IIR) via fiber optic to Virginia Tech's backbone (with an ungodly amount of bandwith in the pre-napster days). The level of bandwith stuck as a local standard and the apartments are usually connected via T1 or better. (Though this now varies by the start-up ISPs that replaced BA when they pulled out of the project). Getting 700kB/s+ at home was a dream come true. I'm only on DSL now, and it's lame by comparison.

Request Denied. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340080)

Hi Mr. McGonigle, this is the Telecommunications Company. We carefully read your request, considered the implications of doing so and realized, that no - we don't want to do it that way. We make less money if we don't have to upgrade you twice. I mean, well the engineers were all for your thinking, but the marketing people came up with this really great idea.

You see, if we put in a middle medium, which has a hig overhead, then we can charge you significantly more to pay for the installation, use and what have you. Now, when we switch the second time, we can sell off our de-valued equipment to smaller 3rd party telecommunications companies for complete proffit, plus we can pay for all the state of the art fiber for next to nothing... We can still increase the usage fee (becuase we're upgrading the service), and we roll in an even bigger proffit.

Re:Please, not on Copper! (2)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340081)

cat5 is not all that expensive, when you're buying on that level- I pick up 3~4 mile spools of cat5e from graybar for about 140 bucks. I can't imagine how much cheaper it is to buy it from a general contracting standpoint, but it must be quite a bit lower.

and cat5(6/7/etc) are standard specs, so calling it obsolete is kind of silly, when you think about it.

that being said, running some fibre strands to neighbourhoods and then running cat5e or cat6 to a house is not unreasonable by any means- making customers buy fibre nics is quite pointless, as well as non-backwards/forwards compatible. fibre standards aren't as nicely categorized as copper, for ethernet anyway.

Re:IPv6 (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340082)

From all the experiences I have had, most businesses (especially ones establishing new networks) are all using RFC1918 private IP addressing. this works rather well considering most businesses also use some form or NAT, whether it be a DSL router or a large array of firewalls backing an OC-3.

that, and most network engineers would agree that using public IP addressing for your business systems isn't always a good idea! think about it!

that being said, several large providers have started rolling out IPv6, like Telstra in australia. I think MCI/WorldCom has moved to using it or at least testing it for their backbone, but it will be several years before we really see it rolled out on any kind of large scale.

As for me, IPv6 is kind of scary, since the last 48 bits of the 128bit address are your MAC, and I'm not particularly interested in people being able to track me down that specifically. somehow it just seems like a situation waiting to be exploited- perhaps it's time to start using the more expensive intel nic's that allow you to define your own MAC on them, for purposes of being sneaky :)

Re:IP v6 better get here soon then. (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340083)

a class C for each home? wha?
if we have true always on networks running into houses, why not just use a well defined DHCP implementation? there's a lot of nifty tricks one can do with that, and I'm sure that several appliances that might be "net enabled" would be needing bootp/dhcp/tftp type services anyway for one reason or another.

air switch (1)

digit (3825) | about 13 years ago | (#340084)

This is all reedy in affect by a company called Air Switch. www.airswitch.com
So to late!!

Re:Athentication? (1)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340085)

Do you realize the possibilities for extreme invasion of privacy possible if you're sitting on a network with your neighbours? regardless of a switch or not, it's not that difficult sniff a switch any more than a hub (albeit a tad more time consuming.)

especially that cheapo low end cisco stuff. like a knife through butter.

would you like your neighbours having complete logs of your IRC/AIM/ICQ/etc sessions? how about capturing all your email? complete histories of all your web surfing, as well as any information entered into those websites?

Creepy, creepy stuff. I personally prefer having my connection hit equipment farther upstream, even with having to live with lower connection speeds. with a nationwide network, script kiddies who can type "ethereal" or "tcpdump" etc will have way too much power for their own good :/

Don't forget the WAREZ! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340086)

Of course in college, even copying off an entire Microsoft Visual C++ compiler passed legal muster as it was for non-profit educational use.

I'd like to see their AUP, thought. Why do companies hide the AUP until you're ready to actually install? I want to know if they issue static IPs, allow you to run servers (http, ftp, smtp, games[quake, etc.], identd[necessary for even 'ordinary' stuff]).

G1\/3 M3 W4R3Z d00d!|||

Re:I want more (3)

No-op (19111) | about 13 years ago | (#340087)

Consider that regardless of how fast your connection is on the cable network, you still have a limited pipe to the internet. I wouldn't dream of giving end users 38Mbit connections a piece- that would just pound on whatever connection I had, be it an OC-48 or OC-192, even.

It's the kind of thing where "if you build it, they will come"... someone develops an app like napster for movie trading on a large scale, (that actually works well!) with all these kiddies sitting on huge fat pipes and the whole internet turns to shit instantly. napster was bad enough. just deal with having connections NOW that most of the world can only dream of :P

Asymmetrical (2)

Malc (1751) | about 13 years ago | (#340088)

I bet the ISPs, especially the big ones, will still make it asymmetrical for residential users. My ISP gives me 1mbs\120kbs ADSL. Downloading at 100kB/s uses at least 20% of my upstream bandwidth. Any significant upstream activity quickly bites into my downstream throughput. It really sucks. However, my ISP obviously views it as an effective mechanism for stopping users running bandwidth-sucking servers. Unfortunately I don't have any other choices: the other ADSL re-sellers get the run-around from the telco, and they have transfer limits too; the cable company on the @Home franchise is just abysmal.

Re:It's been done (2)

alhaz (11039) | about 13 years ago | (#340089)

It's also been done in American Fork, UT. With a gigabit backbone as well. I used to work for the company that did it.

Done it in Finland also... (1)

rc (31427) | about 13 years ago | (#340090)

Our local telco (2nd largest in Finland) has this "kotiportti" (=homegate) service where the telco brings a 1Gbps fiber directly to the cellar switch and from thereon it is distributed as switched 10/100Mbps ethernet to flats.

It costs $45/month, which is cheap by our standards.

Re:Asymmetrical (2)

Greyfox (87712) | about 13 years ago | (#340092)

You can get anything if you're willing to pay for it. Speakeasy was quite happy to hook me up with 768K both ways and the price is pretty reasonable considering I used to get 128K ISDN for the same cost.

Re:fiber to the basement? (3)

sjames (1099) | about 13 years ago | (#340093)

In fact, no utility does any work past their meter or switch box - not the water company, the phone company, the electrical company, or the cable company - at least not without you paying extra for it.

At least in my area, the demarcation is at a small box mounted in the back of the house. They are responsable for everything up to the modular jack. The house wiring just plugs in to that. In the case of fiber, they are typically running it either to the head of the subdivision, or to smaller boxes at the curb. The run from curb to demarcation point is copper.

I suspect that a good part of this involves not wanting to undercut their $1000/month T1 business. That would go right out the window if they provided static IP and reliable DSL (without no server restrictions) at about the same cost to them, but $40 a month to customers. Currently, it looks like they are spending more money on DSL provision to make sure it doesn't become as good as a T1.

Re:Please, not on Copper! (1)

Peter H.S. (38077) | about 13 years ago | (#340094)

D*mn. Something went very wrong with my moderation. The above post is "informative", not a "troll".
Hope this post cancels my fumbling moderation.

Re:Please explain. (1)

sacremon (244448) | about 13 years ago | (#340095)

BGP and OSPF actually aren't covered in CCNA. They are part of the CCNP exam series.

I suspect that when he was refering to LSD he was talking about the OSPF database.

He's incorrect on a number of points anyway. Evidently he has never heard of route summarization, which helps not having to run the SPF algorithm every time a route changes somewhere.

I can imagine a scenario where OSPF would be useful. Say the ISP has a fiber out to a subdivision. The ISP sets up a GSR running BGP and OSPF to handle the local network of routers at individual homes. The routers at each home runs OSPF. Using something like RIP in an area with 500-1000 routers would flood the local network. You'd want something that can handle VLSM's, and of the candidates, OSPF is the more widely used.

IPV6 could wait if this was all done RIGHT! (3)

cr0sh (43134) | about 13 years ago | (#340096)

The majority of homes - heck, I would say the majority of geek homes included - should only need a maximum of five addresses, if that. Your home network should be NAT'ed behind the firewall - after that, the network class could be damn near whatever you wanted. With the right firewall (read , a good one), you could have any addresses you wanted, or you could go the cheap route, and use the unroutable address ranges (10.x.x.x, there are two others, can't remember them off the top o' my head right now), for a NATural (in marketing-speak) firewall (heh, side note - have you noticed that is how they market the low cost firewall routers, such as the ones by Linksys? They call them natural firewalls - do they really think NAT means NATural?)...

I have a friend who lives in what I can only call a bachelor pad, who runs a cable modem with now firewalling at all, and each guy in the pad pays for their own IP. I keep trying to tell them how it would be cheaper (and better, since they run winders like mad) for them to NAT the place, but they won't do it - too hard to set up, I dunno.

The cable companies and DSL companies both have a marketing campaign to get the most bucks out of people by exploiting their lack of knowledge of networking. If they could get away with it (and I bet a lot of people are dumb enough to do it, if the telcos/cablecos could technically do it - actually, the cablecos can, they've been doing it with TVs all along) they would charge for a new line to each machine.

I hate fucking companies who prey on other's ignorance - then try to ram it down the throats of individuals who KNOW better.

Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!

Re:Umm.. Ethernet at home is quite common in swede (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340097)

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[ Reply to This [goatse.cx] | Parent [olsentwins.com] ]

Re:I want more (2)

sjames (1099) | about 13 years ago | (#340098)

I wouldn't dream of giving end users 38Mbit connections a piece- that would just pound on whatever connection I had, be it an OC-48 or OC-192, even.

Use fair queueing on the upstream, and allow the full 38Mbit across town (within your own network). Offer an OPTIONAL squid proxy. Customers who use it will have a really nice web surfing experiance. The more paranoid will still do OK.

If the federal government here in the U.S. really wants to get the boom economy back, it might do well to pressure phone and cable companies to quit stalling technology in their endless effort to wring out the last penny, and just enjoy the substantial profits that are there for the taking now.

Also been done elsewhere (1)

Kismet (13199) | about 13 years ago | (#340099)

A company called Airswitch did this in several cities in Utah county over the last three years. They are practically out of business now.

Re:Athentication? (1)

ShayAllen (323110) | about 13 years ago | (#340100)

Well, since none of my neighbors have tapped my phone yet, I think my ethernet would be safe...

Re:fiber to the basement? (1)

segfaultcoredump (226031) | about 13 years ago | (#340101)

I dont know who your local telco is, but around here, a T1 cost about $150-$300 per month for the local loop (depending on distance to the co).

That said, the internet service for that T1 costs around $700/mo for a tier 2 and $950/mo for a tier 1 isp.

So, the major cost is not in the T1 line but in the service for that T1 line. Now, you may wonder why 1.5Mbps via a T1 cost more than 2Mbps through dsl. Simple, when you get a T1 service, you are also getting SLA's that guarantee latency and throughput on your providers network. With DSL, you dont get much of an SLA other than maybe an uptime guarantee. If you've ever seen the way a dslam is connected, you'll realize that it is typically 128 ports all going into a single DS-3 or OC-3 (and the dslams from cisco let you subtend or daisy chain them so that you really have 12 dslams with 128 ports each all going into a single oc-3. talk about over subscription)

Nah (1)

the_tsi (19767) | about 13 years ago | (#340102)

Ethernet has no QOS. Give me ATM any day of the week. :)

...More Powerful than Otto Preminger...

Re:Dorm room? (5)

McSpew (316871) | about 13 years ago | (#340103)

No, not like having a dorm room in college.

College dorm rooms are connected to large LANs which get their bandwidth the old-fashioned way (via routers connected to T1s and T3s which speak frame-relay or ATM).

What's being proposed here is using Ethernet signalling to carry your traffic from the phone company's CO to your house over plain old CAT3 copper, instead of using one of the DSL variants.

The concept of using Ethernet to carry signal down the last mile is not exactly new. Nortel Networks came up with a technology called Etherloop [internet.com] three years ago. Bob Metcalfe wrote about it [infoworld.com] extensively in his InfoWorld column back then. Nortel wound up spinning off a startup called Elastic Networks to develop and market the product.

Etherloop's biggest feature is that it automatically compensates for crosstalk in binder groups by treating them as Ethernet collision domains, although it doesn't actually incur collisions as normal half-duplex Ethernet does.

Re:I want more (2)

BroadbandBradley (237267) | about 13 years ago | (#340104)

Badwidth is getting cheaper faster than Microprocessors. Most people will only download one thing at a time, a Movie perhaps. if it took 10 minutes to download a 2 hour movie, then the next hour and 50 minutes is sitting at Obps. the biggest challenge is getting networks to allow their content to be delivered in this manner. if all my cable TV content could be kept on a local proxy, there wouldn't be an impact on the net as a whole for at least the Network TV subscription services.
I constantly try to use as much bandwidth as possible on my connection, yes I am a web hog, because if there isn't demand, why scale. I want it to scale so I make all the demand I can generate. The internet as a whole will continue to expand and will grow to meet these needs as more broadband services become available like mp3.com and pixelon.com.

phreaks take a new evolution. (1)

maddest_hatter (308341) | about 13 years ago | (#340105)

If this sort of "revolution" and what not does take place then imagine what ub3r hax0rs could do with it. In the eighties when kids wanted to call up a BBS and not pay for it, they beige boxed. So thinking about this as I write, it'd be interesting to see what precautions would be taken to avoid such a thing from happening.

all a person would need is some neato modified ethernet cable with alligator clips!! (then again my lack of knowledge in networking and stuff tells me that we wouldn't need that much.)

As i keep thinking about this whole thing, who would provide this ethernet service? Would it be bell/verizon or would a new Telco like machine crop up and give birth to a new bunch of blue boxing phreaks of the ethernet world?

Maybe I should just shut up, eh?


Re:Athentication? (1)

kbeast (255013) | about 13 years ago | (#340106)

you could always do it old fasion style and talk in the basement when your 5 a/c units kick on...


Re:Umm.. Ethernet at home is quite common in swede (1)

radish (98371) | about 13 years ago | (#340107)

Sooo...the obvious question is "do you have the number for a good estate agent?". I've always liked Ikea furniture!

Re:Athentication? (3)

DrgnDancer (137700) | about 13 years ago | (#340108)

Doesn't cable have the same basic issue though... You're still sitting on the same network loop as everyone else in the neighborhood. Actually, a good possible solution to this (considering the amount of bandwidth that would be avavilable) would be to have the subscriber's router and the local exchange router encrypt traffic between them. It would require a bit more power out of the local exchange router, but not so much as to be a huge issue. If each subscriber had their own encryption key, there could be no neighbor snooping. Anyone else see a problem with this scheme?

My issue with the article was this:

The flexibility of such an architecture is enormous. Over one connection, a user could conceivably run an Internet hookup at 6 Mbits/s, four concurrent telephone calls at 0.064 Mbit/s each and four concurrent videophone conversations at up to 768 kbits/s each

I personally have never gotten anything close to 10 Mbits a sec on a 10 Mbit/sec ethernet connection. At best they could reasonably hope for 5, and that would assume nearly ideal conditions.... While we are still talking about a vast improvement, I think they are being a little optimistic.

Re:fiber to the basement? (1)

kbeast (255013) | about 13 years ago | (#340109)

but look at it this way, ISDN 56k was like that 4-8 years ago. I've had my cable modem for 6 years now, my cable modem blows away any ISDN connection...those prices will drop if it starts to become a reality in the home...


signal range... (1)

gozie (153475) | about 13 years ago | (#340110)

The CAT5 I work with has a range of only a couple 100 feet. I wonder how they're going to get around this? They would have to use fiber down the lines...

Backbone bottleneck (1)

GreatSwahili (248929) | about 13 years ago | (#340111)

Keep in mind that if only 1000 of people will be increasing their bandwidth to 100mb from lets say 10mb (yes, these are fictional numbers, live with it) that that will increase the bandwidth necessary at NAPs and the like from 10gb to 100gb. In other words, I wouldn't expect to see home users get this type of bandwidth anytime soon since the ISPs aren't prepared to handle it.

Microsoft should love this (1)

oooga (307220) | about 13 years ago | (#340112)

Their goal is to have everything except the operating system of a computer located on remote servers. With bandwidth like 100Mbps, this could actually be possible. I've run complicated programs, like Word and Solidworks 2000 over even a 10Mbps network without problems. As a side note, what do you think is the maximum bandwidth any individual could ever need, and when do you think it will be achievable?

Re:IPv6 (1)

tita (31401) | about 13 years ago | (#340113)

You can do this with some cheap NICs too, they might not remember their new MAC addresses though. But thats why there are boot scripts :)

I had some luck with some cheap NICs based on Tulip chips.

Re:IP v6 better get here soon then. (3)

mrRaist- (300868) | about 13 years ago | (#340114)

Class C to every home? What would the average home owner do with a /24? There are many reasons why they WON'T allocatate a /24 to every house.

  1. ARIN does not allow public addresses to be allocated for workstations. I'm sure that ARIN considers a toaster, TV, home security system, PDA, whatever to be a workstation and therefore doesn't need a public IP address
  2. If I had that kind of connectivity to my house, I would be certain to run some kind of firewall software. Even the most novice of user can setup Internet Connection sharing on their WinME computer. Most /.'ers will opt to some kind of Unix platform I'm sure, but none the less, a firewall should/would (I hope) be in place thus allowing private IPs to be used
  3. How many computers do you have in your house? Between myself, my 2 roommates (all 3 of us are Telecom students) and our landlord, there are only 13 computers in total. Even if we had a killer LAN party and had 14 of our closest friends over, with 2 computers each, thats still only 41 computers.

  4. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love a /24 to come bundled with my spankin' new 100mbps Inet connect, but I honestly can't see it happening. Most people could hardly justify a /29.

    My $0.02


Been there, done that... (1)

kireK (254264) | about 13 years ago | (#340115)

Bellsouth already offers ethernet into the house for Internet access. It is part of their FastAccess branded product using IFITL (Integrated Fiber In The Loop) and PCDATA. Now, IFITL has it's problems, mainly limited availability. Now the cool part..... it's FAST and it works great with Linux ( PPPoE)

Surely the inhibitor is further upstream (2)

biglig2 (89374) | about 13 years ago | (#340116)

What's the point in having 10MBps to your ISP from home? The inhibitor is surely going to be what the ISP has to the internet.

Example: One of my ISP's is UUNET.

Across the Atlantic they have 5 x OC3c lines and 2 x OC48c lines which comes to... about 5.7 Gb/s

Where it might help I suppose issituations like you have now with cable companies, when you are accessing sites in the same ISP; or for sites that have been cached at the ISP level.

This is one reason why broadband companies are so keen on stuff like "watch movies from our media servers" because that's not choking their upstream feed.

Yeah. (2)

mindstrm (20013) | about 13 years ago | (#340117)

That aside.. what does that have to do with using the protocols on the internet? It doesn't.

The original post said 'cannot be used on the internet' not 'cannot be used to run the whole internet'.

Setup that wiring closet in the basement (1)

hv (108589) | about 13 years ago | (#340118)

Basement... garage, it doesn't matter to us. I'm working for a startup doing ethernet infrastructure to the home... including gigabit. We're planning on voice, video and data running on through our boxes. For a good read, hop over to http://www.wwp.com [wwp.com]

Re:IPV6 could wait if this was all done RIGHT! (3)

Cato (8296) | about 13 years ago | (#340119)

NAT breaks many applications (e.g. active FTP, NetMeeting, IPSec VPNs with IKE, many online games and so on). Where applications can get round NAT, they become more complex - e.g. Groove and other P2P apps must jump through hoops or rely on central servers. NAT does provide some security by default, but that's mainly by making it very hard for outside clients to talk to inside servers; a firewall can provide equivalent security quite easily.

If you ever want to be able to call in to a system at home (e.g. to tell your TiVo to record something), it will need a non-NATed configuration. IPv6 is the only way to do this without quickly running out of IP addresses - RSIP (Realm-Specific IP, a combination of tunnelling and IP address management) doesn't solve the 'call ing in' problem as far as I can see.

Before too long you'll want laptops to be able to roam between 3G networks when away from home, and then roam back to your Wi-Fi (802.11) wireless LAN at home. IPv6 enables much simpler IP mobility, i.e. your laptop keeps the same IP address (at least as far as TCP's concerned) no matter where you are. None of this is possible with NAT getting in the way - in fact, getting rid of NAT is one of the main reasons for IPv6.

For more information, see www.ipv6forum.com.

*yawn* Playing catchup again, kids? (2)

Snocone (158524) | about 13 years ago | (#340120)

We've been able to get home Ethernet in Vancouver for AGES. You still creeping along at those glacial cable/DSL speeds? Dude, that is like so 2000.

Check out Novus High-Speed Internet. [novustelecom.com]

Note that the prices are C$ arctic pesos and not real dollars to boot...

Already... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 13 years ago | (#340121)

There is a company in The Netherlands, called BredBand, which is currently preparing a network which will offer full fiber-to-the-home for residential users in 5 "big" (cough) cities. The pilot project is running in two cities. The first 20,000 connected homes should be ready for users by Q102. They intend to offer "standard" 10Mbit or "gold service" - 100Mbit, both with a Gbyte-per-month-limit. From the looks of it, it should be pretty cool :-) It reminds me of my former campus, but for the fact that the fact that it's all fiber makes it an interesting option for the future. Needless to say, the company has got a lot of beautiful plans for providing VoIP and IPTV/Video on demand over the same link.

Re:basement? (2)

mindstrm (20013) | about 13 years ago | (#340123)

Okay. I'll buy that. But opto-isolating copper is also easy.

I'm not saying that fiber doesn't have advantages.. just that, for today's purposes of the home user, it's not 'leaps and bounds' above other methods of broadband digital. THe media itself has great potential.. but will not be beneficial now.

Also, telecom lines have lightning arrestors all over.
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