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Fedora 18 To Feature the GNOME2 Fork MATE

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the locking-it-down dept.

GNOME 202

dsinc writes "It's not just Mint: Fedora will also feature MATE in their upcoming release (Fedora 18). According to Fedora's Dan Mashal, 'many users have expressed interest in this feature since Fedora 15 in which Fedora was switched from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3.'" This follows shortly after news that MATE 1.4 has been released. New features includes file sharing over bluetooth, updated backends for mate-keyring and libmatekeyring, new themes for the notification daemon, and improvements to the Caja file manager. MATE is being included in Sabayon as well.

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Way to go. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832283)

Too many people have problems with GNOME 3. Good to have a choice.

Re:Way to go. (0)

dcbrianw (1154925) | about 2 years ago | (#40833037)

Too many people have problems with GNOME 3. Good to have a choice.

Dear Slashdot, please score this as a 5!

Re:Way to go. (4, Funny)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#40833595)

But choice == fragmentation! Panic now, before its too late!

Re:Way to go. (3, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#40834991)

Fragmentation is only bad when we have something everyone already likes and the fragmentation breaks it. Say, for example, a whole project kind of splits up and each goes in a separate direction which are both different from the original direction. Usually everyone loses in that case.

But when a single choice is made to change which most people simply hate, it's bad too. It's not fragmentation but it's still bad for the users and bad for the project.

In the end, it's the interests of the users which make or break a project. People treat projects and children similarly and it's a damned shame. "My child!" "My Project!" "I can do with it what I want!" Wrong. You can't and you shouldn't. It's a community thing and the community has an interest in the results of your work.

Re:Way to go. (1)

Orcris (2652275) | about 2 years ago | (#40835393)

But choice == fragmentation! Panic now, before its too late!

No it isn't. Fragmentation is bad when programs only work in certain situations. For example, Android fragmentation. Chrome only works in ICS and Jelly Bean, leaving Honeycomb and Gingerbread users out, even though most phones run Gingerbread and most tablets run Honeycomb. GNOME Shell/MATE/Unity/Cinnamon fragmentation is not bad because programs made for GNOME Shell will work fine in Unity and Cinnamon since they are just different shells. MATE is still based on GTK2, but it will be ported to GTK3 eventually, and even with it using GTK2, GTK3 apps still work. The real fragmentation in Linux is GNOME/KDE fragmentation. Usually, GTK apps work fine in KDE and vice versa, but the problem is theming. KDE supports GNOME themes for GTK apps, but KDE apps look ugly in GNOME.

lets hope ubuntu fallows (1)

lister king of smeg (2481612) | about 2 years ago | (#40832295)

. i have been running mate on ubuntu through a ppa but mainline support or even a full spin like xfce and kde have would be nice. hmm Mubuntu?

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about 2 years ago | (#40832749)

Maybe Cinnabuntu with Cinnamon desktop? Sounds tasty!

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (0)

kramulous (977841) | about 2 years ago | (#40834107)

Cinnamon Challenge? [youtube.com]

In all seriousness, I've grown to quite like gnome3. Sure, it has its quirks, but so do they all. You should try Windows 7. First time in 12 years I've had to work with it, and talk about poorly designed, bad user experience and total lack of reconfigurability. Gnome3 is to Windows as single malt scotch is to lolly water.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40834763)

Funny

Gnome 3 caused me to move to Windows 7 and it was a paradise in comparison. At least I can do the very advanced task of unmaximizing a freaking Window.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (2)

jc79 (1683494) | about 2 years ago | (#40835329)

You mean you never worked out how to unmaximise a window in Gnome 3? It's the opposite of maximising - drag the title bar to the top of the screen and the window will snap to maximised, drag the window away from the top and it will snap back to its previous size. It's really simple and actually discoverable, unlike some other things in Gnome 3.

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet [gnome.org]
"Window maximizing and tiling: You can maximize a window by dragging it to the top edge of the screen. Alternatively, you can double-click the window title. To unmaximize, pull it down again. By dragging windows to the left and right edges of the screen you can tile them side by side. "

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (3, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40835359)

Wow

If I have to look up a cheat sheet to do such a basic task it is a failure. You can't expect an average Joe to figure this out and learn a new way one the other one works just fine. Same reason they usually prefer XP over win 7 still just because it is familiar more than the fact it is 10 years old.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (1)

SpzToid (869795) | about 2 years ago | (#40835479)

I must agree. My Asus netbook needed upgrading from Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and after trying everything I settled on Gnome 3 because of how efficient and elegant the window display and task switching is.

I considered this such a success I setup one of my main dev boxes with Gnome 3 (and big double monitors). It took a *little* getting used to, moving from 'traditional' window GUIs, but having taken a small investment in getting used to things, I appreciate again the efficient window display and task management. I strongly suggest all Gnome 3 adopters spend about 5 minutes viewing these training videos, to fast-track smoothness: https://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop [youtube.com]

My next door neighbor likes it too, and thanks me for turning her on to it; she gave up XP on her netbook, thank goodness.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832811)

hmm Mubuntu?

Mubutu ate my father.

Splendid decision (4, Insightful)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#40832305)

I was disheartened with the shipwreck that Gnome 3 decided to become, so MATE was a very positive development. And while I'm not a Fedora user (just not my cup of tea), it's a very popular distro, and seeing them adopt MATE added a huge momentum to the project (a bit like when IBM adopted Java - it boosted it enormously).

Re:Splendid decision (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832793)

Gnome3's pretty good once you use it for about 5 minutes... extensions.gnome.org helps a lot.

Re:Splendid decision (-1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | about 2 years ago | (#40832969)

Gnome-shell is pretty excellent... it seems to follow a design philosophy where once you get into something it throws context-relevant stuff in your face. Hit Activities, it shows the launcher, the current windows, the desktops, a tab to show you all your applications, and a search bar to search through applications. Hit applications, and it shows you all the categories for applications. It's pretty much that simple. Unity seems to make little to no sense to me; it's similar, but misses out on being obvious to stupidity.

But Gnome 3 comes with a Gnome Classic mode. Failing viable 3D, Gnome Shell even falls back to it automatically. What's this MATE thing even for?

Re:Splendid decision (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833121)

For people who like their desktop to have familiar features rather than being dumbed down for touch screens?

NOT for touch screens (4, Informative)

pscottdv (676889) | about 2 years ago | (#40835229)

For people who like their desktop to have familiar features rather than being dumbed down for touch screens?

There is no way Gnome 3 is designed for touch screens. Or at least, not for touchscreen-only computers. I use Fedora 17 on a pen-based computer (fujitsu stylistic) and I can tell you that if it were not for the fingerprint reader on it, Fedora would be *UNUSABLE*. Whenever Gnome 3 needs a password to connect to WiFi or to unlock the screen or unlock following suspend, THERE IS NO WAY TO ENTER THE PASSWORD! The password windows captures all mouse input so it is NOT possible to bring up an onscreen keyboard.

So lets stop pretending Gnome 3 shell is for tablet-type computers. It CANNOT BE USED ON A COMPUTER WITHOUT A KEYBOARD.

Oh, and when one IS able to use the on-screen keyboard, it has is no tilda (~) character. Not that you would ever need to type a tilda on a unix-like operating system.

I've filed bugs on all these complaints, but there has been no action.

Are you listening Gnome team?

Re:NOT for touch screens (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 2 years ago | (#40835425)

There is no way Gnome 3 is designed for touch screens.

So then why do they make changes where the commit log talks about the change was for touch screen users?

Re:Splendid decision (1)

KiloByte (825081) | about 2 years ago | (#40833795)

Have you actually tied the "Gnome Classic" mode? It is made of regressions. The first few things I tried: putting most used menu items on the panel (right-click on it in the menu). Oops, can't do anything with menu items anymore. Oh, and the panel itself is gone, too.

The next thing I tried, was finding out why RhythmBox doesn't show up in the tray like it was configured to. The answer? No more tray, it has been removed "because programs abused it" -- even though the only case of abuse I remember was Remmina (a Gnome component) sticking an icon there even though it's a regular foreground tool. And what has been placed instead of the tray? An icon that shows you that your network cable is plugged in, an unremovable instant messenger status (who uses instant messengers these days?), and a reminder what my name is (I kind of can remember that myself, thanks).

Third issue I immediately fell into, was an "envelope" icon popping up, with oh-so-important messages that a song ended. In Gnome 2, XFCE and any sane desktop environment, this message pops up in a corner, lingers for around a second then slides back off. Yet in Gnome 3, it somehow needs to persist until dealt with.

Let's say I didn't keep trying for long. Gnome Shell at least has a novel (if ludicrous and IMO unergonomic) interface, but Gnome Classic seems to be strictly worse than Gnome 2.

Re:Splendid decision (2)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | about 2 years ago | (#40834827)

who uses instant messengers these days

I do.

Re:Splendid decision (1)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#40835055)

No. It's not. You may be fine with moving your mouse to opposite ends of the screen frequently, but I'm not. My first experiences with it involved installing it on a laptop and I forgot to bring a mouse. Try that with a touchpad for a few hours and you'll realize that "hey, maybe this isn't good for EVERYONE."

Gnome shell forgot some things and forgot that it's not all about tablets and touch screens... and definitely not all about mousing with lots of desktop spaces.

Re:Splendid decision (1)

jc79 (1683494) | about 2 years ago | (#40835437)

You could always press the Super/"windows" key or whatever itls labelled on your keyboard. Gets you to the overview without needing to lift your hands off the keyboard - pretty much everything in gnome-shell can be done with keyboard shortcuts, often the same shortcuts that worked in Gnome 2 (ctrl-alt-up/down arrow to switch workspaces for example).

To launch an application, I press Super, type the first few letters of the program name (or what it does, like "mail", which gets me Thunderbird), hit Enter and go. Much quicker than the Gnome 2/Windows way of clicking Applications, mousing down to the correct submenu, and selecting from there.

Re:Splendid decision (1)

GoingDown (741380) | about 2 years ago | (#40833099)

I Like Gnome 3 quite a lot. I just fits my work habits really well:

* Alt+Tab (and Alt+Key-above) works just as I really want them to work. Perfect
* Dynamic virtual desktops concept is perfect for me
* Minimalistic look. I really hate when toolbars are full of icons, and every place is full of things.
* Desktop overview is good & easy (or whatever it is called, where you can manage your windows, and launch new programs etc.)
* Extensions!

I have only few problems with Gnome 3 - one being that gnome-tweak-tool should really be included by default.

My second favorite is Awesome window manager. I've also tested Xmonad and Kde quite extensively for several weeks, but Kde is way too "stuffed" and confusing for my tastes, and Awesome seems to be better fit than Xmonad for some reason.

Re:Splendid decision (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833715)

I really hate gnome 3. I completely fails to support my work habits and annoyingly cannot by changed.

1) I have a mouse since I interact with image processing constantly. Hotkeys just don't cut it.
2) Having several static workspaces each dedicated to a particular task, application or project which now vary randomly.
3) I really hate having a 30" xterm spread across my monitor if I move it too far up.
4) I use to have a workspace manager that showed me what was in all my workspaces and I didn't even have to do anything.
5) Customization through discovery and not having to write code to fix things. I am perturbed that I have to visit a website to fix fundamental failings in the design
          with unsupported extensions that could go away at any second.
6) In an effort to be user friendly, many critical error messages no longer give enough information that I can troubleshoot it with google. Just happened today
          when I made a selinux goof. Being told that there is an unrecoverable error while being locked out of my desktop with my only option "log out" is idiotic.

I have many problems with Gnome 3 and after reporting them was told that I need to change my habits instead. Also, this talk about GnomeOS. Really? Can't you get the desktop right before you go on and try to change everything to one big button that says "OK" for every message.

Re:Splendid decision (1)

techno-vampire (666512) | about 2 years ago | (#40835447)

I really hate gnome 3. I completely fails to support my work habits and annoyingly cannot by changed.

When Gnome 3 was first announced, I read the description of how it was going to work and knew, right then, that it wasn't for me. It wouldn't do things the way I like, it was expected to insist on doing things I didn't want and was almost completely unconfigurable without (potentially) unreliable third-party extensions. If I'd have known more about MATE then, I probably would have migrated to it. As it is, I ended up with Xfce and am very happy with it. Still, it's nice to have more than one option to point people to if they find Gnome 3 or Unity not to their taste.

Re:Splendid decision (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40835489)

If the gnome-shell freezes, then you can press ctrl-alt-f1 to open a console. Log in and type

gnome-shell --replace

This should restart shell, but it doesn't restart X, and all your programs stay open.

Re:Splendid decision (0)

kubusja (581677) | about 2 years ago | (#40833455)

You are just spreading FUD - like hardcore Windows users... I took me a few days but I love GNOME 3 now. I am switched completely. I was able to convert a few from Unity/other to GNOME 3. They all stayed with GNOME 3. And I am Fedora user.

Re:Splendid decision (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 years ago | (#40834381)

Whether or not GNOME3 is or isn't any good is really pretty irrelevant.

The only meaningful thing here is how you can't just take a legacy system upgraded to the latest version of GNOME and just run the old apps as they were. The old stuff should not have been messed with. They should be able to run unmodified. They can't. That's the real nonsense here.

GNOME2 had to be forked to deal with that nonsense and it really wasn't necessary. A lot of effort has gone into getting MATE rolling that shouldn't have been needed to begin with.

Re:Splendid decision (3)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#40834459)

I was able to convert a few from Unity

Must have been hard...

Re:Splendid decision (1)

Tarlus (1000874) | about 2 years ago | (#40833561)

(just not my cup of tea)

I see what you did there.

(The namesake of MATE) [wikipedia.org]

But wait... (4, Funny)

wordsnyc (956034) | about 2 years ago | (#40832311)

Seadog 19 will feature Matey, the DE that comes with a talking parrot (but doesn't support 3D).

Re:But wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832471)

...you're high, aren't you?

Re:But wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832729)

yep...oh wait, you're not talking to me, nevermind.

Re:But wait... (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about 2 years ago | (#40832837)

No he's probably an experienced FOSS developer. And the package name for the parrot will be Polly, and the library for it will be Crackers.

Re:But wait... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40834051)


libcrackers
libcrackers-devel
libcrackers-ng
libcrackers-ng-devel

Oh, but that's too close to libcrack now, isn't it.

libbiscuits
libbiscuits-devel
libbiscuits-ng
libbiscuits-ng-devel
libbiscuits2
libbiscuits2-compat

Include != Feature (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832327)

"Feature" kind of implies MATE will be the default. If I'm reading TFA correctly, MATE will be available but new installs will still default to Shell. Just like how Ubuntu defaults to Unity but Shell can be installed from the repos.

Re:Include != Feature (1)

techno-vampire (666512) | about 2 years ago | (#40835505)

Only if you install from a LiveCD, and there are already KDE and Xfce spins if you prefer. Assuming that there's not a MATE spin (and that's a pretty big assumption) all you need to do is install from the DVD and select whatever DE you prefer.

First post... (-1, Offtopic)

jago25_98 (566531) | about 2 years ago | (#40832331)

First post, over a 4k/sec satellite connection...
  beverages drinks don't mix well with electronics... captcha is unwind...

Perhaps supporting R100/R200 was a good idea... (4, Interesting)

sethstorm (512897) | about 2 years ago | (#40832333)

Given how many decent, albeit old, chips covered by the Gnome 3 blacklist - this shouldn't be a surprise.

In addition, not much was ever said about the blacklist other than "R100/R200/$chip just can't handle it" without specifying how something that worked in Gnome 3.0 didn't work in later versions. The excuse generally has been along the lines of "STFU and enjoy the fallback, since your chip is too old" without a reasonable explanation of why it even happened. Never mind that Gnome 3 goes out of its way to make sure a blacklisted chipset stays in fallback to the best of its ability - without any opportunity to override.

And a round of slow clapping began.... (4, Funny)

Picass0 (147474) | about 2 years ago | (#40832371)

Thank you for the outbreak of common sense from the Fedora team. I've been using KDE since Gnome 3 arrived.

wow (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832399)

what a fail

Gnome 3 is DEAD; long live Gnome (1)

Mister Liberty (769145) | about 2 years ago | (#40832435)

2 that is.

New features includes file sharing over bluetooth (-1, Troll)

mcgrew (92797) | about 2 years ago | (#40832453)

Huh? I've been sharing files over bluetooth for a couple of years, in both KDE and Windows. In fact, because of MS's wanting you to not be able to connect to a network without a copy of Win 7 Pro on the network, bluetooth is faster than Samba over wifi! Of course, the Windows machine needs a third-party app to run the bluetooth dongle (kubuntu does not).

I guess I won't be trying this distro out...

It just works (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832507)

Used Fiesty heavily and loved it but my Linux usage slipped more with each Ubuntu "upgrade".
Thankfully the 12.04 upgrade trashed my main Ubuntu install and I loaded Linux Mint Maya MATE.

I love it! I'm back up to 90% Linux/10% Windows.

Kind of sems like a step backwards. (3, Insightful)

slackware 3.6 (2524328) | about 2 years ago | (#40832559)

Fedora was the first to jump on Gnome 3. They should work on getting the kinks out instead of trying to go back in time or trying to be a crappy Mint wannabe with no codecs. My boxes have been geting switched over to Mageia (from F 16 & 17) because fewer updates and more stable with Gnome 3.
If you take away Gnome 3 and Unity you will lose alot of new linux users. New users want something cool and flashy not something that looks like a clone of Windows from years past.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832663)

Says you. You must be some part-time home-hobby geek or something.

The rest of us who actually work every day with linux on our desktops just want to get our work done and want to be able to do things without 17 mouse movements all over the desktop trying to make a mouse emulate a touch-screen.

clone of Windows (1)

Mister Liberty (769145) | about 2 years ago | (#40832725)

Famous last words. Whatever happened to trying to be your own original self. Like in what made FOSS great?

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832845)

Work on getting teh kinks out? Gnome has made it perfectly clear they don't give a fuck about user feedback. The fact that you're using Gnome 3 and/or Unity tells me you're exactly the kind of user no one wants to deal with. Gnome 2 + compiz still has more flash than OSX or Win7 and actually worked, unlike the pile of shit that is Gnome 3.
>Unity.
Get out.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards. (5, Insightful)

Ignacio (1465) | about 2 years ago | (#40833989)

They should work on getting the kinks out instead of trying to go back in time or trying to be a crappy Mint wannabe with no codecs.

GNOME 3 doesn't have "kinks", it has major usability regressions. They can't be "gotten out", they must be destroyed.

New users want something cool and flashy not something that looks like a clone of Windows from years past.

Only if you want all your new users to be teenage kids.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards. (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#40834491)

Remember that Fedora is the testing grounds for RHEL.
Without Mate RHEL would have to go to Gnome3 in the next major release. The user base would not accept the usability issues.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards. (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 2 years ago | (#40834657)

I always assumed people wanted a piece of software that worked, and did what you want from it. If a desktop operating system can't do simple tasks that a normal user is assustomed to, then it is a failure.

From a personal value judgement, if you have to sacrafice functionality (regarless of if its the way YOU work) for a design philosophy, you'ew probably going to alienate a ton of people who will abandon your endeavors. There are many many reasons for 'new' Linux users that have nothing to do with crazy odd-ball UI changes that make the OS look flashy. A rock solid simple desktop OS that doesn't 'get in my way' is awsome in itself.

Thirdly, Fedora is and has been the testbed for RHEL releases that follow. If they're considering MATE as another (possibly main) desktop environment, then there's a really good chance thay they're getting push back from their customers (you know, the people who actually pay money for their choice in software). Of course, this may just be yet another alternative to appease the masses who are generally diss-satisfied with G3. It all depends on what the default deployment options for F18, F19 will be to see how much people are for/against the DE.

Mint (1)

Faisal Rehman (2424374) | about 2 years ago | (#40832677)

It IS customized mint desktop.

faith (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832735)

I don't have too much faith in MATE. Doesn't look like they've done much besides renaming shit. Their website and github have been pretty much dead these past couple months.

Fixed API breakage? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40832765)

Have the MATE folks fixed the broken API/namespace issues that their crazy-mad s/GNOME/MATE/ caused? Things like https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-settings-daemon/issues/7 for example?

I do love the concept of the MATE project, but the reality is that this kind of breakage just breaks the cohesion of the desktop and makes it difficult to use. It can't take me 14 clicks to pause/mute the music before I can answer the phone.

At least, thankfully, supposedly they have fixed the broken keyring stuff. Might be worth giving another try if that's indeed fixed.

Re:Fixed API breakage? (1)

Ignacio (1465) | about 2 years ago | (#40834027)

Now that they have someone big on their side, they stand a good chance of getting these issues cleared up.

We're all missing the point (2, Informative)

supersloshy (1273442) | about 2 years ago | (#40832861)

This is being blown way out of proportion. We're all acting like this means that Fedora is dropping GNOME 3 for MATE or something crazy like that. From what I can tell they're simply just porting the packages to Fedora, nothing more. Maybe they'll offer a version with MATE as the default configuration, but this doesn't show any signs of replacing GNOME 3 in the future. Lets be realistic and read the articles, folks.

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else. By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again. I can guarantee it. I, personally, really love it as it is, especially how easily extensible it is. I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

Re:We're all missing the point (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833431)

Gnome 3 isn't stabilizing.
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/07/is-the-new-nautilus-a-step-in-the-direction-poll
A lot of things are changing frequently, with every release I have to get used some new UI.

Re:We're all missing the point (4, Interesting)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#40833479)

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else. By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again. I can guarantee it. I, personally, really love it as it is, especially how easily extensible it is. I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

That's bullshit - I was there when Gnome 2 was born. There were some critics, but nowhere near the backlash that accompanies Gnome 3.

Your post reminds me exactly of the Windows Vista apologists: they would say things like "When Windows XP came out, there were just as many people who hated it. like the ones who hate Vista. In the end, it will be a success like XP." Turns out, all those apologists were full of shit, and Vista really is the turd that everybody thought it was.

Re:We're all missing the point (4, Funny)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#40833717)

By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again.And Gnome 4 will replace it with new, improved bugs and an incomprehensible UI

FTFY

no, Vista actually became better (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40834077)

Your post reminds me exactly of the Windows Vista apologists: they would say things like "When Windows XP came out, there were just as many people who hated it. like the ones who hate Vista. In the end, it will be a success like XP." Turns out, all those apologists were full of shit, and Vista really is the turd that everybody thought it was.

I am typing this from my laptop running Windows Vista. It is an insult to Windows Vista to compare it to Gnome 3, or KDE 4.Windows Vista just needed a year or two of bug fixes, and updated drivers. Security was improved. More improvements were made, which became Windows 7. Yes, Vista uses more memory than XP, just like Gnome and KDE have grown in footprint. Doing things, like using bluetooth, webcams, scanners, or changing monitor resolution are easy, and mostly problem free in Vista, but troublesome in Gnome 3 and KDE 4. I switched back to Windows, when I stopped programming, because Gnome 3 and KDE 4 are so troublesome.

Re:We're all missing the point (1)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | about 2 years ago | (#40833771)

By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again.

Man, that's a terribly bad way to manage a large software project.

I, for one, wish my Linux desktop environment had less "throw it all out and start over" regressions

I'd like to see more carefully planned upgrades that have less breakage while still moving forward in smaller increments.

Re:We're all missing the point (2)

Yenya (12004) | about 2 years ago | (#40833975)

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else.

And they were right.

I have been using GNOME since GNOME 1 times, and I think for former GNOME users the GNOME 3 fiasco is not something unexpected, it is a logical outcome of the overall trend in GNOME development.

I remember Sawmill/Sawfish being replaced by Metacity, which even in the latest GNOME 2 releases was not able to do things which were supported in Sawfish since day 1 and still are.

I remember Galeon being pushed out of GNOME and replaced by Epiphany (seriously, did anybody used Epiphany?), and again, Galeon was more capable than Firefox (and of course than Epiphany, but no surprise here), until it bit-rotted enough to be removed from Fedora about year and half ago.

I remember GDM being rewritten for GNOME 2.20, omitting XDMCP support altogether (a display manager without XDMCP, would you believe that?) and removing the config file, in which the user previously could set his own X server options, allowing, for example, correct multi-seat support. Those features were promised to be added later, but they never were, with the notable exception of the XDMCP support. And guess what? GDM in GNOME 3 is said to support multi-seat, but it generates its own hard-coded xorg.conf for secondary seats somewhere under /run, and again there is no way to configure the xorg.conf for secondary seats.

So no, GNOME 3 has not been a surprise, at least for me. GNOME 3 has been a logical outcome of the general trend, which has been visible in the GNOME development for several years. That said, GNOME 2 was bearable for me for general use (with Galeon, xdm, and Sawfish). When GNOME 3 was released, I have finally switched to XFCE.

missing the point all right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40834779)

I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

Missing the point all right, but not in the way you think. We need to lose the mentality illustrated above - "go ahead and write some code" if you don't like something - if we ever plan to have Linux adopted by other people than coders. I don't want to write anything for my desktop to work, I have another job and I want the desktop to "just work" and be productive without arcane tweaks and insulting attitudes.

As an aside, Fedora is still the only OS I've tried that ties bug reporting to creating an account on a bug-tracking site (in this case bugzilla). For an OS that wants to be user-friendly, that's as annoying as it gets. Some program crashed. If you want to know about it, let it send the report and be done with it. Like Windows or MacOS or whatever. Most users don't care to follow up and you'd get a lot more information that way, in particular about the patterns and numbers of crashes. Even if I do care, I am not about to stop whatever I'm doing for creating an account with bugzilla and writing a little expose about what I was doing and what went wrong.

Sensationalist: it's just packaging (1)

diegocg (1680514) | about 2 years ago | (#40832871)

Fedora is going to continue to be a Gnome 3 distro. They are not doing anything special with Mate, they are just going to package it for people that wants to install it.

Since when packaging something is newsworthy?

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging (0)

gagol (583737) | about 2 years ago | (#40832983)

Since slashdot! And it will probably resurface as news in 3-4 months...

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40833767)

It is special. It means it is supported and compiled with the same settings as the rest of the distro. This means less problems and integration as all the other apps use the same flags like --gtk.

I left Linux because of gnome3. No sense sticking with gnome2 if it is not supported and will not even compile anymore as the apis and libraries move on. Mate on the other hand means it is still being updated and I am relieved. Now if it starts using gtk 3 and other things that would be welcome too and may give me the urge to at least try it again.

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#40834515)

Mate will be the default in one of the next Fedora releases, in preparation for RHEL7.
Mark my words.

Car analogy (3, Insightful)

gagol (583737) | about 2 years ago | (#40832907)

The vehicle driving interface have not changed much in the last 80 years or so. This has not stopped us to innovate vehicles. Imagine that every 10 years or so, car manufacturers decided that a steering wheel and pedals are out of fashion and should be replaced by something fundamentally different.

The mess we have today in many fields is related to our priorities as a specie. We placed eyecandy before efficiency and this means we place a tremendous amount of energy in entertainment, games and trendy gadgets that sole goals are to steer attention away from real problems by having an entertainment industry so huge.

\

Re:Car analogy (1)

tuffy (10202) | about 2 years ago | (#40833049)

Modern GUIs still have windows and scrollbars and buttons, just as a modern car has a steering wheel and pedals. That hasn't stopped some car makers from screwing up the shifters and radio knobs from one model to the next, just as OS makers do.

One would hope these mistakes will lead us to better interfaces than before, but there's bound to be some setbacks along the way.

Re:Car analogy (1)

gagol (583737) | about 2 years ago | (#40833149)

Of course all car analogies have flaws! The basic point is the trend is to add chrome to the car... will use more resources in both cases and do not serve any real purpose aside from the young users feeling "cool" with their computing devices... I REALLY hate trends for the sake of trends, but its just me ;-)

Re:Car analogy (1)

hobarrera (2008506) | about 2 years ago | (#40833105)

Let's be honest: steering wheels, pedals and levers should have been replaced by now.

Re:Car analogy (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 2 years ago | (#40833427)

Why other than stupid reasons like 'they are old'? They are perfectly functional and even idiots can use them.

Re:Car analogy (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#40833743)

even idiots can use them.

I think you just answered your own question

Re:Car analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833749)

Therein lies the problem. Sometimes, an interface needs a minimum standard of intelligence for the good of the species.

Re:Car analogy (1)

gagol (583737) | about 2 years ago | (#40834957)

+1 Funny, who modded parent down dont get sarcasm... I believe it would be simpler to simply remove all warnings labels...

Re:Car analogy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833811)

OK, wire up a playstation controller to your car and let us know how that works out for you.

Re:Car analogy (1)

FitForTheSun (2651243) | about 2 years ago | (#40834681)

Good job focusing on two interface elements and ignoring all the others. Since the introduction of the steering wheel and foot pedals, we have

* electric start instead of cranking the engine
* the introduction of the ignition key
* shifters moving from steering column to floorboard
* turn signals instead of hand signals
* cruise control instead of pressing down the accelerator
* a bunch of buttons on the wheel for cruise control
* a bunch of buttons on the wheel for radio
* the loss of the clutch pedal in most vehicles
* the introduction of windshield wipers and mirrors and headlights

None of these are "trends for trend sake". All you've got on your list is

* steering wheels are still round
* the gas pedal is still to the right of the brake pedal

And by the way, steering wheels don't work exactly the way they used to, and neither do gas pedals

* steering wheels are smaller now, and when you turn them a machine turns the wheels instead of you turning them directly
* floor pedals sometimes move themselves, as with cruise control or emergency braking

All that said, I still don't like Gnome 3. Some change is good, some is bad. You're allowed to have an opinion on Gnome, even if your car analogy is a bad analogy.

Thank GOD! (0)

ndtechnologies (814381) | about 2 years ago | (#40832939)

Someone needs to put a bullet in the head of GNOME 3. What an abomination it's become...and it sucks too.

Re:Thank GOD! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833051)

No, the distros just have to make it so that GNOME 3 is NOT the default desktop.
Use XFCE or KDE for that. For the class of deluded users GNOME is chasing they can "add" their shitty experience afterwards. But at least 90% of linux users will have a sane desktop from the start.

Yikes (1)

Kevin Fishburne (1296859) | about 2 years ago | (#40832973)

Oooo, ouch and damn. Poor GNOME team. How many eighths have they lost now?

Re:Yikes (2)

fluffythedestroyer (2586259) | about 2 years ago | (#40833101)

They took a chance to change the design, they failed. The question now will they admit it, look at their situation and take a step backwards and finally listen to their community and their fans... that's an interesting question.

the best community (1)

fluffythedestroyer (2586259) | about 2 years ago | (#40833075)

This proves that linux is the best community. They base most (if not all) of their decisions on their community rather than cash, corporatism or capitalism. I'm not saying the other community are bad but next to linux...it's hard to beat. Look at fedora, they fed team noticed a trend towards another desktop manage, they viewed it, they listened and they changed direction which I must say it pretty rare these days. I know some dev team work with themselves only and formed a closed group and base their decision based on the dev only and not the community unless the demand is getting excessive.

And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure? (0)

halfdan the black (638018) | about 2 years ago | (#40833171)

A thousand developers all going a thousand different directions.

? One of Gnome3 biggest failures is they provide very little documentation on how to customize / modify it. Gnome3 is a actually a dammed good design and provides for immense customizability. Want it to behave like Gnome2, all you have to do is write a bit of JavaScript and glue the bits together is a Gnome2 style, thats it. I truly have no idea why the Gnome3 developers want to hide all the great work they have done. Its so easy to write themes / extension, but why do we have to install these fucking 3rd party tools like Gnome Tweak Tool, WTF is it not built into Gnome3???

There is no fucking need to waste everyones time extending Gnome2.

If these MATE clowns would have just taken a look at Gnome3, they could have made it work exactly like Gnome2 without introducing all this insane complexity of maintaining another dammed desktop.

I'm sorry, but these MATE clowns really piss me off, they could have worked with the Gnome3 developers to fix the problems with Gnome3, but instead, they go off their own way, and create duplicate dead effort.

So, how many God dammed desktops does Linux have now? do we really need so many? The look / feel of just about any of these desktops can be achieved with a custom shell built on Gnome3, much like Mint. So what does this MATE shit do for developers like me, now they expect me to support GTK3 and GTK2?? Why can't these desktop developers learn to get along or at least take a look at Gnome3 and see what you can build on it.

Sorry for this rant, but this complete and total inability to get along, work with, or at least look at what other developers are doing is so fucking ridiculous. We don't need another desktop, we just need to fix the ones we have.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure? (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 2 years ago | (#40833451)

Except the GNOME people don't want to work with outsiders or take criticism. All they want is some echo chamber circle jerk. This is why people have gotten frustrated.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833841)

Except the GNOME people don't want to work with outsiders or take criticism. All they want is some echo chamber circle jerk. This is why people have gotten frustrated.

Then the biggest weapon we have is to ignore them. Make the distros ignore them also.
After a while no one will care what those jerks do or do not.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure? (1)

nullchar (446050) | about 2 years ago | (#40833615)

A thousand developers all going a thousand different directions.

And after a thousand compilations each day and after a thousand days, we will end up with the most beautiful [wikimedia.org] Desktop Environment ever!

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure? (1)

SnarfQuest (469614) | about 2 years ago | (#40833813)

One of Gnome3 biggest failures is they provide very little documentation on how to customize / modify it. Gnome3 is a actually a dammed good design and provides for immense customizability. Want it to behave like Gnome2, all you have to do is write a bit of JavaScript and glue the bits together is a Gnome2 style, thats it. I truly have no idea why the Gnome3 developers want to hide all the great work they have done. Its so easy to write themes / extension, but why do we have to install these fucking 3rd party tools like Gnome Tweak Tool, WTF is it not built into Gnome3???
 

Wow! It's really great! Too bad there's no way to find out how to use it. Let's require all the users to figure out how to start up a program by reading the source code. That's more important than doing their regular jobs. Something doesn't work, its obviously because you missed reading function xxxx.

There is no fucking need to waste everyones time extending Gnome2.

If these MATE clowns would have just taken a look at Gnome3, they could have made it work exactly like Gnome2 without introducing all this insane complexity of maintaining another dammed desktop.
 

Take a look at what? Like you said, there's no documentation. Why waste your time trying to fix something, when they are just going to change it all again in the next point release? Gnome and Gtk both make radical changes to the interfaces in minor releases, dropping frequently used simple interfaces with highly complex undocumented ones for the same function. And if you try to use the glade programming interface, be prepared to completely rewrite your code every point release.

I'm sorry, but these MATE clowns really piss me off, they could have worked with the Gnome3 developers to fix the problems with Gnome3, but instead, they go off their own way, and create duplicate dead effort.

In my experience, if you are not part of the inner circle of gnome/gtk, don't bother trying to work with them at all. Sending bug reports, code for enhancements, requests for information, all will be ignored.

So, how many God dammed desktops does Linux have now? do we really need so many? The look / feel of just about any of these desktops can be achieved with a custom shell built on Gnome3, much like Mint.

So what does this MATE shit do for developers like me, now they expect me to support GTK3 and GTK2??

Which point release of the major versions are you supporting? You better expect to handle those versions too.

Why can't these desktop developers learn to get along or at least take a look at Gnome3 and see what you can build on it.

Why can't gnome3 be compatible with gnome2 out of the box? Did all of the computers suddenly turn into tablets that can only display one program at a time? Out of the box, gnome3 is a piece of crap for developers. It's nearly useless, and you spend too much time clicking all over the place trying to look at several things at once. Maybe you can change it's behavior, but I don't want to spend endless hours trying to teach it how to start a terminal session when there at a lot of alternatives out there that have that capability built in. I want to see multiple windows at the same time. I am not interested in playing stupid "guess which buttons you heed to hold down at the same time you click the mouse" games trying to figure out how to do simple things. It's useless time wasting crap!

Sorry for this rant, but this complete and total inability to get along, work with, or at least look at what other developers are doing is so fucking ridiculous. We don't need another desktop, we just need to fix the ones we have.

In my experience, gnome/gtk developers are in their own world, and don't talk to users or outside developers. They do what they want, and to hell with what the users or developers want.

Look at their libraries, much of it is spent duplicating system library code with their own "improved" versions. Why don't they "at least look at what other developers are doing"?

Other distros (2)

phorm (591458) | about 2 years ago | (#40833353)

Perhaps this will serve as a wake-up-call to other distros (*cough* ubuntu *cough*).
New shinies are nice. Choice is better.

Re:Other distros (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40834029)

Linux Mint is binary compatible with Ubuntu.

Just sayin'.

So in OSS (1)

future assassin (639396) | about 2 years ago | (#40833531)

its good to fork once in a while to keep the projects momentum going and bring in new blood?

I Use Gentoo Linux... (1)

JohnnyMindcrime (2487092) | about 2 years ago | (#40833549)

....so looking forward to using MATE when it's finished compiling some time in 2014. :-)

Re:I Use Gentoo Linux... (2)

Anomalyst (742352) | about 2 years ago | (#40834765)

....so looking forward to using MATE when it's finished compiling some time in 2014. :-)

That is just 1.5 Grateful Dead songs away!

Speaking for the gnome shell users (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40833645)

because they're all so happy getting on with work with their fast efficient UIs rather than reading slashdot

may need to look at it again (1)

Tora (65882) | about 2 years ago | (#40833753)

I may actually go back to Fedora. Once it switched to GNOME3, I dropped it in lieu of CentOS6.

I am insanely curious to know what kindof hit they had on users after GNOME3 was integrated. There has to be a drop.

Re:may need to look at it again (1)

Ignacio (1465) | about 2 years ago | (#40834123)

A bit, yes. But most that didn't like GNOME 3 switched over to XFCE or KDE, and some then went on to MATE once Fedora packages became available.

Debian? (2)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#40834585)

Where is Debian? I still don't see Mate in the standard repos, let alone as an installation option (or, preferably, the default.)
I've been running XFCE4 for a while but, frankly, the longer I use it the more issues I find. Like VNC and NX interoperability, or the infamous xfce4-terminal hang that just caused me to lose some work last night.

Re:Debian? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40835357)

It looks like debian developers object to maintaining all the libraries used mate, but the mate project maintains a debian repository.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/02/msg00257.html [debian.org]
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download#debian [mate-desktop.org]

I personally doubt that Mate will survive in the long run, but at least it will be interesting to see what happens.

Re:Debian? (1)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#40835463)

If RedHat bets on it (and I think they will for RHEL) then it will not just survive.

Good news (1)

jfp51 (64421) | about 2 years ago | (#40835295)

I left Fedora after using it for many years because of the Gnome 3 crap-fest. Been using MATE on Mint since then and have been very satisified. Understand that Fedora is cutting edge and used to test and develop new stuff for RHEL but Gnome 3 was unusable (for me, hate it when others make all the UI decisions for me, no minimize because it is against their philosophy, please...) Going to take out F18 for a spin for sure, always nice to have options. And once again, not bashing Gnome 3, to each their own, it only failed from my point of view!
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