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Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8?

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the yes-no-maybe dept.

Microsoft 345

Un pobre guey writes "Should you develop apps for Windows 8? Well, the hype and flogging are apparently in full swing. From the article: 'To be clear, Windows Phone 8 is not a slam dunk. Some, such as IDC, believe Windows Phone will eclipse iOS by 2016. Others, though, believe the trajectories of Android and iOS can't be slowed in the next few years. Nonetheless, I think a bet on Windows Phone 8 is justifiable, even wise, since anyone who purchases a new Windows Phone 8 device likely will want to load it with the latest and greatest apps.'" Another reader points out that the full Windows Phone 8 SDK was leaked online recently, which led to some interesting discoveries: "For starters, it appears that the API is very much like the full WinRT API, but it has no JavaScript support. There is also no support for creating and working with Silverlight/XNA style. This is a bit surprising because I and most developers were under the impression that Microsoft would support the migration of Silverlight apps to HTML5 and JavaScript, but there isn't even support for JavaScript to access the phone's services. The best you can hope for is using the JavaScript support in IE10."

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Notes from part time developer (-1, Flamebait)

GirlsDoIt (2697965) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838155)

In my opinion, Windows Phone 8 would be great choice to support. Windows Phone 7 has shown that the market place is mature and most importantly, users of WP devices are filling to pay for apps. This is in big contrast to Android where most users will just try to get either your app for free, or only download free apps.

On top of that Windows Phone 7/8 supports the fantastic developer tools that is Visual Studio. There is no better IDE around and I really wish I would have it on my OS X.

Re:Notes from part time developer (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838189)

Put your Balmer semen-soaked asshole away.

Thanks!

Re:Notes from part time developer (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838717)

Please don't use that kind of language. I don't want faggot imagery to pollute my brain.

Re:Notes from part time developer (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40839041)

Microsoft hires Burson-Marsteller CEO Mark Penn

Mark Penn is the current CEO of astroturf and online sockpuppet firm Burson-Marsteller.
Microsoft Corp. said Thursday it has added Mark Penn as the company's corporate vice president, strategic and special projects.
Penn is expected to focus on consumer initiatives in his new role, reporting to Microsoft (NASDAQ:MSFT) CEO and enthusiastic bottom Steve Ballmer. Penn, 58, is currently CEO of the public relations firm Burson-Marsteller and CEO of polling firm Penn Schoen Berland LLC.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2012/07/19/microsoft-hires-burson-marsteller-ceo.html [bizjournals.com]

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838213)

Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones? Last I checked iOS and Android were way ahead of MS in terms of numbers of people using their platform. People will pay for apps if they find them to be sufficiently useful.

Having people that are more willing to pay makes very little difference if it's a tiny install base.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838439)

Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones?

Eleven.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838481)

Um, mine died. So ten.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838885)

Nine, actually, I threw the Lumia they gave me into the sea. Didn't illuminate it well if you want to know.

And then there was null (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838953)

Um, mine died. So ten.

And of the original 11 users, yet another 1 died and so there was 0.

Re:And then there was null (1)

bhcompy (1877290) | about 2 years ago | (#40838985)

Gore Vidal was a WP7 user?

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40838973)

Perhaps, but how many people use Windows phones?

Eleven.

Smirk all you want, but that number might double over the next year.

Re:Notes from part time developer (2)

savuporo (658486) | about 2 years ago | (#40839049)

Microsoft has more VPs and execs than that, so adjust your numbers.

Re:Notes from part time developer (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838215)

LOL

Re:Notes from part time developer (4, Interesting)

ausrob (864993) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838237)

Perhaps... but I can't help feeling that Windows Phone (as a platform) is still very much a second-class citizen. For one thing, the Windows Phone 8 SDK is still not available (excluding the leaked copy) and we're only months away from Windows 8 (RTM) and a little later, (October??) the Windows Phone 8 handsets and Tablets come out. We haven't even seen a beta or RC of the SDK..

Worse still, given the amount of rework which devs will need to undertake to port their existing Windows Phone 7 apps to Windows Phone 8 (for the use of the WinRT API, for example). This is a baffling move, and given the history of the Windows Mobile line.... it's getting to be a bit rich.

Also, I disagree that the market place is mature. There's not nearly a large enough user base to make that statement, and hearing that Windows Phone 7 handsets won't support an upgrade to Windows Phone 8 may hurt.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838659)

Windows Phone (as a platform) is still very much a second-class citizen

Second? They wish!

More like tenth, behind iOS and a crapload of Android versions.

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

jader3rd (2222716) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838667)

Worse still, given the amount of rework which devs will need to undertake to port their existing Windows Phone 7 apps to Windows Phone 8

Actually app devs shouldn't have to do a thing. Microsoft has repeated that all Phone 7 apps will run on Phone 8. I'm sure someone will have an app that'll have trouble, but it's clear that Microsoft's goal is to make it such that no devs will need to rework anything for their apps to work.

Re:Notes from part time developer (2)

ausrob (864993) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838737)

You misquoted me - I specifically mentioned WinRT. To make use of the new functionality offered by Windows Phone 8, developers will have to make major changes as many of the existing APIs (Silverlight, for example) will not be supported.

Re:Notes from part time developer (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838247)

On top of that Windows Phone 7/8 supports the fantastic developer tools that is Visual Studio. There is no better IDE around and I really wish I would have it on my OS X.

Surprised to see a macfag shilling for Microsoft.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Funny)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838693)

On top of that Windows Phone 7/8 supports the fantastic developer tools that is Visual Studio. There is no better IDE around and I really wish I would have it on my OS X.

Surprised to see a macfag shilling for Microsoft.

That's offensive. Just because one uses Apple, does not mean they are gay. They are predominately metrosexual. There's a difference.

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40839035)

Would that make all macfags metrofags now? /mindblown

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40839065)

That's like saying they are turgid instead of rigid.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Insightful)

epyT-R (613989) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838271)

face it, the days of people spending $20 on stupid beer drinking and fart apps are long over.. this is why most mobile devs saying stuff like this are butthurt.. people won't pay for crap anymore. they will however pay for substantial apps that are reliable at the required task....on any platform.

Re:Notes from part time developer (3, Interesting)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838777)

Mod this up.

Most apps are crap that barely works, and that includes iOS and Android. Crap like that usually does not fly on a PC or a Mac.

The ones that are coded somewhat well, are barely even worth 99c. People are getting wise to that and don't want to spend a ton of money on something that gives them very little return.

If a developer really wants money then they need to deliver a truly working app with a lot of useful features. Angry Birds makes money because it is not only written well with few bugs, but is also an engaging game with more than just a few levels.

Make something really good and you will get paid.

Re:Notes from part time developer (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838301)

In my opinion, Windows Phone 8 would be great choice to support. Windows Phone 7 has shown that the market place is mature and most importantly, users of WP devices are filling to pay for apps. This is in big contrast to Android where most users will just try to get either your app for free, or only download free apps.

On top of that Windows Phone 7/8 supports the fantastic developer tools that is Visual Studio. There is no better IDE around and I really wish I would have it on my OS X.

Another MS Shill trolling. MS fanbois do realize that MS makes more money from Android right now than they do from Windows phone. I won't even dignify the visual studio remark.

Next time make it more obvious you signed up just to make a pro MS comment!!!

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838425)

YHBT. YHL. HAND.

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838567)

How does Microsoft make money off of Android?

Re:Notes from part time developer (4, Informative)

EdIII (1114411) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838711)

How does Microsoft make money off of Android?

By engaging in a patent war and bullying other corporations into just paying the extortion fee to use their highly questionable claims on the technology involved in Android.

MS is not the only doing this either. The whole thing is disgusting.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838897)

Huh? On what planet have you been living lately?

It is a well known fact that about every tablet or phone maker using Android gets a "visit" from Microsoft's "negotiators", and it always end in paying a "unknown to public" sum of money per device for a "unknown to public" patent portfolio.

In short - those manufactures have to pay "protection money" to Microsoft, otherwise there could be something bad happening. You know - like a monster patent process costing millions. Oh - Microsoft could lose it, but by that time the company that rejected the "protection" would be out of money. Yep Microsoft has deep pockets, and will use it against anyone standing in their way...

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838825)

Next time make it more obvious you signed up just to make a pro MS comment!!!

I guess he'll have to, you obviously didn't see the idiocy in it and just got trolled hard.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1, Informative)

bongey (974911) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838303)

Come on MS marketing troll cut it out. One comment , way too rosy for MS products.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

Zebai (979227) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838373)

Article and the first time poster at #1 both stink of marketing stunts. Also do you even know anybody that has a windows phone? I doubt my friends even know Microsoft is in this market. I think they could steal some corporate market away from blackberry if they thrown in good exchange/vpn support I personally hate the blackberrys my company uses they break often and drop calls daily

Re:Notes from part time developer (0, Flamebait)

GirlsDoIt (2697965) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838423)

How many know Android is made by Google? They just know the brand they buy, like Samsung or LG. It's the same for Microsoft. Only geeks know the maker of the OS.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

Genda (560240) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838395)

Hey, ease up, Microsoft Marketing guys gotta eat too. Its not even smoke... yeah, its fog, and he's not blowing it, he's just forcefully exhaling it up your pant leg. If it any of it get's up your ass... is it really his fault? Cut him a break.

not cutting him a break (5, Insightful)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838625)

There is no "news for nerds" value in his astroturfing, so he doesn't deserve getting a front page post, nor does he deserve a break.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1, Troll)

flimflammer (956759) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838749)

They're not even shills. It's the same crap as the people shouting "First post!". Being a pretend shill is just the new go-to troll in Apple/Microsoft stories because it invokes a bigger reaction.

Re:Notes from part time developer (5, Insightful)

LordLimecat (1103839) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838505)

Yet another slashdotter with a whopping 2 posts to their name, a 7-digit UID, no karma to speak of, who managed to land on the site right as this article was posting to drop some praise for MS. Hey look, you got the achievement "posted a comment" today, but Im sure this is an honest opinion, right? Just happened to be a positive comment about MS 60 seconds after an article on MS was submitted?

You all really do think we're stupid, huh? That we wont notice the EXACT SAME THING [slashdot.org] happening over and over?

Why didnt you manage to work any subtle jabs towards competitors in? Oh wait, you did, well done.

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838601)

Man this has to be the BEST way to troll /. :

Post a gushing pro-MS comment and watch the poor nerds unable to contain themselves as they froth at the mouth!

Protip: dude you're obviously getting trolled for all of the reasons you stated in your post. Get a hold of your compulsion to respond (that's what trolls want) and let the moderators mod it down so we don't have to read it.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838937)

Problem with this is that moderators browse comments at -1 so they will see it. And when they see it they will get Fscking annoyed and become trolling victims.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838643)

Good catch. Thanks for finding that.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838627)

I agree with the comments below about a 2nd post being this generic.

users of WP devices are filling to pay for apps.

Except their not. About 85-90% of the market is the iPhone store. There is no evidence that the Windows 7 store is any more successful than the: Android, Blackberry, Ovi (Nokia)...stores that each have a few percent. Further Windows mobile market share has been declining rapidly. Over the last 3 years your userbase has declined 40% while the market tripled in size.

As for Visual Studio for OS X... how exactly would a IDE / compiler for GDI and the .NET execution engine be ported effectively to OS X?

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838957)

filling?
So they send Microsoft letters asking for payable apps?
Won't anybody think of the children and put a payable app on the windows market place before they start rioting?!??!

Re:Notes from part time developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838671)

Windows Phone 8 would be great choice to support ... if you're a masochist and you want to prove to the world that you don't write code to make money.

Just sayin'.

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

justforgetme (1814588) | about 2 years ago | (#40838971)

I think this is the wrong way to see it. Maybe Win8 mobile (or win mobile 8, or phone 8 win, or whatever it's called) is the best proving ground for a new startup. If you manage to get rich there you can get rich anywhere!

Re:Notes from part time developer (1)

darkstar019 (2320432) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838751)

IMO, the android app market is huge, and there are apps that make revenue via ads. No better IDE ? - That's personal. I've found eclipse to be more lightweight than VS, but YMMV. Currently, windows phones are not that commonplace for an average developer to make money, and as a average phone user, I'd prefer android/ios anytime over wp due to app availability - so its a chicken and hen problem.

if your app screams on Windows Phone 8 (4, Insightful)

Locutus (9039) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838227)

will anyone hear it?

Ok, so will there really be much of a market when most fanbois will be getting x86 Windows 8 devices and skipping on Metro? Without any support on the desktop/laptop side what does Windows Phone 8 have going for it to attract developers? Single digit market share for many years should be expected with WP8 while Android and iOS split the market and continue to grow.

Just like WP6.5 and WP7, it won't matter how many hundreds of millions or even billions in marketing Microsoft spends, without the ability to eliminate Android from the market WP8 gets no love outside of Redmond WA. IMO

LoB

Re:if your app screams on Windows Phone 8 (0, Troll)

bongey (974911) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838339)

They are spending a lot of money trolling on /. To many one comment accounts telling how great MS products are going even though they suck now .

Re:if your app screams on Windows Phone 8 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838965)

They are spending a lot of money trolling on /. To many one comment accounts telling how great MS products are going even though they suck now .

Yeah i'm sure they are, clearly microsoft is paying people to do that and it's not just incredibly successful trolling, look at how many douchebags get sucked in. Mod it down and move on, it's the new 'First Post'.

Re:if your app screams on Windows Phone 8 (2, Insightful)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838863)

The key seems to be their integration strategy moving forward. You can't really avoid Metro in windows 8, there's a desktop there, but it's decidedly second fiddle to metro.

By this time next year I expect they're planning to have a full range of integrated products. Windows 8 desktop, tablet, phone, windows 8 phone or tablet connecting your PC or Xbox as something, a mechanism to better manage programs on windows 8 etc.

Ultimately supporting windows phone 8 is going to just be supporting windows 8. You may need a recompile and some work to port to ARM, but basically the core of programming should be the same between the two. So there's not a whole lot of reason not to support windows phone when you're writing an application for windows 8 (which is where the real money in software is anyway) you may as well set it up so it can handle a small screen size at the same time.

JavaScript Worst Language Ever... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838309)

for battery life when applied to small form factor batteries in mobile phones and tablets.

Re:JavaScript Worst Language Ever... (2)

Eirenarch (1099517) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838753)

I don't know where the author got the idea that MS will migrate Silverlight to HTML and JS. Silverlight apps are supposed to be migrated to XAML apps which is practically the same but different enough to justify the use of the word "migration". Webocalypse is postponed in the MS world.

Will it sell? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838327)

Will it sell? So far their phones haven't sold in any volume, even Samsungs Bada OS has sold double that.
Will you gain a skill useful elsewhere? I doubt this platform will be used anywhere else, their platforms are very fragmented at this point.
Will it succeed in a niche? Erm, well no, can't think of a niche for it.

I noted the cost ($10k) MS was charging XBox games developers to certify every app and patch and I reckon if you ever make a successful app, they'll milk all the profits out in certification fees and fees to be included in the app store.

I see FP is in love with Visual Studio, but you're probably better off getting up to speed with Eclipse at this point.

Should we develop WebOS ? (1)

kubusja (581677) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838345)

Because everyone who purchases WebOS phone will want to download the latest and greatest apps... Seriously, iOS and Android already saturate the market from both ends. There is no need for something in the middle...

Possibly correct (-1, Redundant)

theRunicBard (2662581) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838385)

As much as I hate a lot of what Microsoft has done both in terms of quality and moral choices, I have to admit they may have gotten this one right. Despite a small market share, even Steve Wozniak endorsed the phone (without being paid, I imagine). Meanwhile, though I love a lot of what Google does, there's no doubt that Android has fragmentation issues. If we see a Google-Motorolla equivalent of the iPhone soon, they may nuke the market, but past that, Windows Phone is something that just might work.

Re:Possibly correct (4, Informative)

Belial6 (794905) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838507)

The Android 'Fragmentation' is a red herring. If you are going to complain that there are more than one version of the OS in the wild, MS's phone OS is not what you could call "gotten right". Have they had a single version that could run the previous version's apps? 6, 6.5, 7 and now 8 are all completely incompatible with each other. And no phone gets updated to the new incompatible version.

Of course, maybe we are reading it wrong. Maybe the prediction that "WP8 will eclipse iOS by 2016" means that analyst thinks the 10 WP users will eclipse the 5 users left on iOS. It seems unlikely, but it seems just as likely as WP8 gaining as much market share as Apple has now.

Re:Possibly correct (0)

elabs (2539572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838881)

You can't put Windows Mobile 6 and 6.5 in the same camp as Windows Phone 7 and 8. Apples and Oranges. You might as well put Windows Phone inthe same camp as the Cray II. It doesn't make any sense. As for WP7 vs WP8, the same apps in WP7 WILL run on WP8 unmodified. So they are totally compatible.

Re:Possibly correct (1)

Belial6 (794905) | about 2 years ago | (#40839097)

I had been under the impression that WP7 software was going to be incompatible with WP8. If WP8 is backward compatible with WP7 then it isn't quite as bad, but MS does not get a pass on 6 and 6.5. Saying MS doesn't have fragmentation because their OS versions are too incompatible with each other to count isn't really a valid argument.

Re:Possibly correct (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40839047)

If you are going to complain that there are more than one version of the OS in the wild, MS's phone OS is not what you could call "gotten right". Have they had a single version that could run the previous version's apps? 6, 6.5, 7 and now 8 are all completely incompatible with each other.

6 and 6.5 are Windows Mobile, the clue is in the title, adding them in is either through ignorance or an intentional attempt to create a disingenuous comment. You might as well complain about Meego fragmentation because it's not compatible with Symbian.

7 and 8 are Windows Phone (which is a totally different OS to Windows Mobile), unifying with the Windows 8 kernel obviously can't be done until the Windows 8 kernel is finished so WP7.x was the stop-gap measure. Windows Phone 8 runs all Windows Phone 7 apps but - for obvious reasons - not the other way around (just like how iOS5 features don't work on iOS2). WP7 is still being supported and will still be supported in the future with the 7.8 release which is for all Windows Phone handsets.

It's not ideal that 1st generation handsets won't get WP8 but at least they will be supported with the 7.8 release.

Re:Possibly correct (5, Insightful)

Nursie (632944) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838725)

Android doesn't really have fragmentation issues. Older apps run mostly fine on newer phones, and google supplies a compat library for newer apps to run on older phones.

What Android has is choice. Win Phone 7 didn't have that (specs set by MS). i don't know if Windows Phone 8 will or not. but it doesn't really matter because -

MS are not cool.

They're like your dad trying to dance at a nightclub. Even if he gets it right, he's still your dad and it's still highly embarassing.

Re:Possibly correct (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838857)

They most certainly do. For developers and users. Google has already admitted this, so it's not worth sweeping under the rug. Same with piracy.

The problem is they're only addressing this now. That means even the changes they made for jelly bean aren't going to be on the majority of Android handsets until 2014 or 2015.

Re:Possibly correct (1)

Nursie (632944) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838961)

Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to an AC but here goes - any fragmentation is really a perception and not reality, if you look into android development at even a surface level you can see that googel have gone out of their way to make apps work seemlessly across versions.

If you're referring to there being different versions of the OS out there then in light of the above that's pretty irrelevant. Piracy... you can do that on whatever platform you feel like, and they are making it harder on android now as you say, and it will take a while to filter through, but lets not pretend that -

1) iPhones do not suffer from it
2) Windows phone has a larger enough market share that anyone cares about pirating software for it

No. (5, Insightful)

ajlitt (19055) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838393)

Does Betteridge's law apply to my post? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838835)

No.

Market Share (-1, Flamebait)

DarwinSurvivor (1752106) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838399)

Nonetheless, I think a bet on Windows Phone 8 is justifiable, even wise, since both people who purchase a new Windows Phone 8 device likely will want to load it with the latest and greatest apps.

FTFY

Re:Market Share (-1, Troll)

fat_mike (71855) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838491)

This is my last last Slashdot post. I'm tired of hearing the bashing of free markets. I'm tired of the bashing of Microsoft (exists in a free market) and Apple (also exists in a free market).

What have any of you actually accomplished over the last 20 years? Do you really think Valve is going to keep supporting you when the amount of messages bitching at them about how they should force nVidia and ATI to release their drivers exceeds by 10000000 percent the Valve programmers quitting because they have to support so many freaking libraries for every version and release of Linux that and its requirements?

Linux was a good idea, then the zealots got a hold of it and now its a pile of crap.

Time spent on arguing over what which WM is the best at fixing all of X's crap and pushing nay screaming at people how awesome Linux is and your grandma will totally pick it up (been hearing that for 15 years) and no innovation and vmware totally making the 1970's time share and the 90's thin client an actual reality and doing it right, well

Linux is crap, deal with it. Don't argue with me, don't lie to yourself, fix it.

Re:Market Share (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838515)

Good riddance. If you're so poorly educated that you think that the US has a free market, then we definitely don't need you around. The US has crony capitalism instead of a free market, otherwise it should be trivial to buy a computer without having either OSX or Windows installed and the laws would require MS to give full refunds conveniently for those not wishing to use their products.

Linux is better now than it ever was, provided you choose a sane distro.

Re:Market Share (2)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838581)

What does that have to do with the fact that Android and iOS are vastly more popular than current generation Windows Phone for both users and developers? By breaking backwards compatibility with WP7 apps MS makes it easier to switch to a more popular OS. By not releasing the SDK early they're not giving developers much time to port and test apps, so those devs that do chose to write apps for WP8 will likely not have those apps available on release (thus discouraging purchases of WP8 devices) or have buggy early versions available (thus discouraging purchases of WP8 devices.)
That said, due to the above fewer developers will make apps for WP8, reducing competition and allowing those devs that do to set higher app prices.

Re:Market Share (5, Informative)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838735)

Linux was a good idea, then the zealots got a hold of it and now its a pile of crap.

When exactly was it that "the zealots" wren't part of Linux? The GNU stuff was founded by zealots. The kernel came out of the Minix hobbyist community which have no interest in the sorts of standardization you are talking about.

Linux is crap, deal with it. Don't argue with me, don't lie to yourself, fix it.

Linux owns
-- a huge chunk of the server market
-- essentially all of the super computing market
-- a huge chunk of the embedded market
-- is becoming a major guest OS for new development on mainframe

The purpose of the GNU project was to create a free Unix on par with the commercial Unixes. Linux has killed off most off the commercial unixes. Digital Unix, , Irix, SCO are dead and HPUX, AIX and Solaris are on life support.

I don't think the Linux community has much to be unhappy about. That's a very successful OS by any standards and it achieved the goals of the GNU project. The enterprise and personal desktop market has had huge improvements since the mid 1990s and Linux hasn't been able to gain enough ground for those 2 segments. Oh well.

No. (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838435)

No.

(Score:5, Informative)

Re:No. (-1, Troll)

phantomfive (622387) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838695)

(Score:-1, Troll)

Just seeing if it works.

Support my mom's ass. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838451)

Slashdot, news for fucking bastards, stuff that goes up your mom's ass. Also the new Digg sucks cock.

Why do we need windows phone 8? (0, Flamebait)

moniker127 (1290002) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838469)

We already have IOS, and better yet android. We all know that android will be the only game in town in a few years, why not just code for it?

Re:Why do we need windows phone 8? (1)

MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838543)

Even though I'm not the slightest bit interested in owning a phone whose OS contains the word 'Windows', I would like to see a third significant competitor come along and shake things up a bit. I just don't get excited by putting faster processors in phones anymore.

Re:Why do we need windows phone 8? (3, Interesting)

moniker127 (1290002) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838569)

I suppose I just don't get excited by phones anymore. Either IOS or Droid does everything that you could really need from a phone. I'm not saying that its perfect, but it seems like we've got to the point where its good enough for 99.99999999% of the situations that will arise.

Betteridge's Law (OH SNAP!) (4, Interesting)

CuteSteveJobs (1343851) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838485)

Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8? I am reminded again of Betteridge's Law of Headlines which states "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word 'no'".

I am a Windows developer but if I'm going to develop smartphone apps it'll be for whoever offers me the biggest market: Android and the iPhone. Microsoft has a perfectly decent desktop OS, but instead of finding ways to reinvigorate the desktop using innovative technology (the way Jobs would have) they are chasing the smartphone market in a way that spooks desktop developers such as myself. I find myself not thinking "Windows for Smartphone" and now not even "Windows for desktop" but "Android for Tablet". Microsoft needs to stop copying other people's ideas, but just because it's immoral but because it's a lousy business strategy: It didn't work for Bing, Zune or anything else they've copied lately. If Microsoft don't do a reality test here they're heading for an even bigger disaster as they scuttle their flagship platform.

Or in 2 words: Betteridge's Law.

Re:Betteridge's Law (OH SNAP!) (4, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838649)

Indeed.

In order for a "me too" product to succeed in a marketplace full of similar products and establish itself as the new leader, it has to be twice as good as the current market leader.

None of Microsoft's "me too" products over the last 10 years have done this. Not even the xbox which comes in a distant second to the Wii as of June 30. Should anyone dispute that, because I know there are a lot of fanboys here:

Worldwide Sales Figures
Wii -- 96.56 million as of 30 June 2012[8]
Xbox 360 -- 67.2 million as of 31 March 2012[52]
PlayStation 3 -- 63.9 million as of 31 March 2012[53]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Console_wars [wikipedia.org]

All the previous Microsoft phone OSes have been market disasters, taking single-digit slices of the market pie. Mostly because they sucked outright.

Is WP 8 twice as good as Android or iOS or even Symbian? No. It's just another "me too" smartphone OS barely even with the others. Is the smartphone hardware from Nokia twice as good as the hardware from Apple or Samsung? The days of Nokia producing a superior product compared to its competitors are long gone.

The only way for a fair-to-middling product to succeed in a market already dominated by others is to "choke off the oxygen" of one of the competitors. But while this strategy may have been successful in the past, Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to cut off anyone's oxygen these days except when they teamkill one of their partners in the head.

So why does Ballmer and Microsoft think it deserves the top spot?

And anyone who puts a question in the headline deserves a ripened pine cone up the ass.

--
BMO

Re:Betteridge's Law (OH SNAP!) (4, Insightful)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838795)

The problem is... there aren't that many of you. .NET is a terrific compiler and a good technology stack. By any reasonable measures vastly richer than the stack for the web. Yet year after year after year more and more software migrates to the web and web based technologies. The rich exciting market for new native applications is happening in XCode for iOS. There market is scuttled. It may very well have happened in the move from COM to .NET but it has already happened.

No one else offers ubiquitous computing with full functioning business productivity software available on every device a person owns. No one else is even trying. I don't know whether Microsoft will be successful in their Windows 8 strategy or not. But I wouldn't accuse them of copying. Their vision is bold.

IDC is a Microsoft Shill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838501)

Nobody can predict the tech future that far out.

The real question is... (2)

casab1anca (1304953) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838537)

not should, but will developers support WP8.

The platform itself is very much comparable to iPhone or Android, and even had some nifty features that stood out from the competition when it first came out: Live Tiles and the People hub to name two. I don't know why developers never took to the platform -- there isn't a reason they shouldn't support it, and whether WP8 will change their minds remains to be seen.

Re:The real question is... (1, Informative)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838829)

There is a very good reason they shouldn't support it. Windows mobile usage fell 40% in the last 3 years, that is during a time when the size of the market tripled. The reason developers never took to the platform is because customers won't buy it.

Re:The real question is... (5, Interesting)

phantomfive (622387) | about 2 years ago | (#40839039)

I don't know why developers never took to the platform -- there isn't a reason they shouldn't support it, and whether WP8 will change their minds remains to be seen.

I can think of two simple reasons:
1) There aren't many users.
2) Since WP7 didn't support C/C++ code, you can't just port your app and write a new GUI (like you can for iPhone and Android), you have to write the whole thing from scratch. Is that worth the effort? Probably not, because of 1.

We're doing Android & iOS, WP8 not on our scop (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838571)

The question is will anybody put up money for a Windows 8 version of app XYZ? The amount of money going
into WP8 development is a function over how many devices out in the field and how many of those in a given
party's market. I can tell you right now, WP8 is not on our scope. We're about to release device apps for our service,
right now we're doing Android and after that there will be an iOS version.

The way I see it, sorry Microsoft, but too late and too little.

Dead OS walking (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838623)

Windows Phone 8 isn't even out yet and it's already irrelevant.

No one wants it:

End users don't want it because the launch phones are uninspiring and lag the competition in both specs and style. Besides, it's Windows. Who chooses Windows if they have an affordable alternative with all the apps they need?

Developers don't want it because it lacks users and so far the platform looks less capable than either iOS or Android. It's also not a sure thing in the marketplace long-term, MS has already made developers for their mobile platform redevelop everything TWICE, so any development investment has a good chance of being wasted. Backwards compatibility used to be one of Microsoft's big things, but not on mobile.

Corporates don't want it because it doesn't yet have the central management facilities that iOS, Android and especially BlackBerry have. Its basically a brand new OS for mobile and corporates take time to make decisions and switch. Meanwhile, Android and iOS are taking over and show no signs of stopping.

Also, after Windows 8 comes out for desktops, Metro is going to be the least popular user interface style on the planet after it catastrophises everyone's Windows desktop experience. This does not make for a popular phone OS.

In short: Windows Phone 8 is dead already, it's just Steve Ballmer is too desperate to keep his job to notice.

Re:Dead OS walking (1)

jbolden (176878) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838867)

Also, after Windows 8 comes out for desktops, Metro is going to be the least popular user interface style on the planet after it catastrophises everyone's Windows desktop experience.

I agree with everything you wrote till this. I don't know that this is true. Its entirely possible that the mixture of mouse, keyboard, voice, touch, stylus with all the different forms of breaking off screens and keyboards is such an amazing computing experience that it becomes the future. Obviously disaster is more likely, but the vision here is rather bold and exciting.

Re:Dead OS walking (4, Insightful)

marm (144733) | about 2 years ago | (#40839093)

Its entirely possible that the mixture of mouse, keyboard, voice, touch, stylus with all the different forms of breaking off screens and keyboards is such an amazing computing experience that it becomes the future. Obviously disaster is more likely, but the vision here is rather bold and exciting.

Sure the vision of Metro is good, but the implementation of it on Windows 8 desktop, with the constant jarring between the familiar desktop and the Metro launcher/start menu, is going to send desktop Windows users mad. For most people the desktop Windows 8 Metro start menu is going to be the first time they've seen the Metro style, and so far it doesn't look like it works well there, not with the keyboard and mouse that most will be using it with.

My suspicion is that it will engender such a dislike for Metro that it will actually put people off Metro altogether - the exact opposite of what Microsoft are hoping will happen, and not good for WP8.

XNA (2)

elabs (2539572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838685)

I am hoping that they still announce something for XNA developers at the upcoming BUILD conference. As I've said before, no language owns 3D, not even C++. Every language should have the ability to access a hardware-accelerated 3D rendering pipeline, even HTML. I really hope they provide a way for C# developers to integrate 3D into apps (not just games).

This website is turning into fox news.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838689)

http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/106054.aspx

An immature marketplace is a good thing for devs (2)

elabs (2539572) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838705)

If "mature" means at it's peak (and ready to decline) then I agree that WP8's marketplace of apps isn't quite mature yet. There is still some room for developers to get their apps in there. But at the current rate of growth that won't last long. I submitted a science-related app a year ago and it was the first of its kind. Now there are about 10 other apps just like mine in the marketplace and I don't get as many downloads as I used to.

Should? Who are you asking? (4, Insightful)

Loopy (41728) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838741)

Is what phone/OS a developer supports supposed to be up to some groupthink decision based on some "prevailing wisdom?"

I may be picking a few nits but this seems to be a thinly veiled form of Begging The Question considering the obvious bias in the submission.

I thought they would pull up, not so much now (5, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838763)

I really thought Microsoft had a chance with WP7. I said repeatedly they could at least show a strong third place, possibly even take over Android's position.

This was based on WP7 being really well designed, Nokia hardware being really good, and Microsoft pouring a ton of money into having a really competitive app market.

But Microsoft has screwed this all up. WP7 developers have to re-work how they develop. Hardware that should have formed the base of a wave today, will not even support WP8 tomorrow!

Microsoft is still pouring a ton on money into app development but as far as introducing platforms, it's like they are starting from scratch AGAIN and WP7 never happened. They were late before, now they are WAY too late.

Perhaps they can still pull back. Perhaps Surface will do really well and drag WP8 along behind it. But they have a massive uphill climb now, that they made worse by digging down a mile or so to start with.

Good luck Microsoft, and I say that because Apple and the market in general need strong competition... but the odds look long and I hope you realize that.

+0.5: Almost funny (0)

aglider (2435074) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838765)

NO, they shouldn't.

Infrastructure? (1, Insightful)

jandersen (462034) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838783)

Smart phones may be cool and all, but the infrastructure is missing - the network coverage is simply not good enough and what there is, is not too reliable. It may be good enough for those that mostly use messaging, but when your business depends on you being accessible and on the move, it is no good. You can't have a conversation if you lose signal every few minutes.

The thing is, once you get past the wow-factor of the iPhone et al, what you have is basically a clumsy mobile phone and a computer that is too small and slow, with an unreliable internet connection; and you are sqeezed to pay for everything you try to do, more or less. I can't see that as a lasting businesss model - the benefits are too small for the price.

MS can't support HTML5 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838793)

MS is based on monopoly. And for monopoly, any open standard is poisonous. See how IE supports (or doesn't) HTML5.
But it is difficult to to publicly say they support open standards and at the same time try to spread Silverligth (which is MS locked).

Win development is XAML (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838815)

The Silverlight-to-Win8 migration strategy is XAML. There's some different underlying class libraries/namespaces, but the basic controls (buttons, panorama/pivot) are shared between the two, which means the UI definitions can largely remain unchanged. The codebehind changes more, but if your codebehind is highly coupled to platform specifics rather than System.* .Net calls, that's the bed *you* made.
Updating an app to WinRTP is *not* a big deal.

Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8? (2)

CheshireDragon (1183095) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838819)

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: Has any Windows phone really been THAT successful?

I am being sincere too. I have worked for a wireless company that I will leave nameless for over 5yrs and NO Windows phone was ever worth it. Not in the slightest.

Re:Should Developers Support Windows Phone 8? (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838891)

I would not really consider developing for Windows Phone as it is now. Their earlier platforms were incomplete for developers and the backward compatibility for apps seems to be ignored so every new generation from Microsoft has so far required a rewrite of the app.

Add to this the fact that Android and iOS are the big players right now. The existence of free apps may not by themselves generate much income but the amount of free apps are an indication of how large the developer community is - and their competence. A free app that is good and useful is promoting the developer which then can offer his services for more advanced solutions.

So for Microsoft to succeed they need to offer something that is as ground-breaking as the iPhone, and so far this doesn't seem to be the case and they will be a fringe player.

No (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40838845)

Not only No, but fuck No.

Support C/C++/OpenGL, make porting easier (5, Insightful)

Stiletto (12066) | more than 2 years ago | (#40838935)

Suppose you've already got a game where most of the core code is written in C++ and uses OpenGL. Right there, you're hitting iOS and Android (assuming a minimal amount of Objective-C &Java simply for integrating into the platform).

Now you've got a decision: work on some cool, valuable features for the next version of the Android/iOS game, or completely re-write it using the Microsoftie languages, technologies, and UI idioms they force you to use, and have to maintain two code bases. I know which one I'd choose

Windows Phone is not going to get any real developer love until they give in and stop forcing their technology stack on us.

Microsoft, while you're bootstrapping your platform and trying to attract developers, wouldn't it make sense to make porting easier?

belief (1)

l3v1 (787564) | about 2 years ago | (#40839045)

"Some, such as IDC, believe Windows Phone will eclipse iOS by 2016"

[quote]belief (noun): conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence[/quote] (m-w.com)

I don't see much evidence or reality in believing WP8 will eclipse anything at all. I don't believe anyone should base development decisions on the beliefs of others who seemingly don't know any better.

If anything, our collective experience should tell us that there's really nothing firm to support this blind faith in WP8.

Why not? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40839127)

My wish list for mobile platform development:

Apps distributable outside of appstore

No fragmentation issues either device capabilities, or OS version issues.

Native code and complete platform API

Same code executable on desktop

No security issues... sandboxed execution to protect the user from evil apps including denying access to users phone number, sms..etc. No global file system that can be accessed with impunity by every app.

Easy access to 3d hardware

I think windows phone 8 has a good chance of succeeding.

That depends (1)

Casandro (751346) | about 2 years ago | (#40839141)

Do you want to have a secure job maintaining those legacy systems like maintaining IE6 only webapps? Then fine go for it. If you want to have something that should still be used easily in 10 years, by all means no.

If you want something serious, use some cross-platform development system like Java or Lazarus and compile for whatever you want. Or you make a web application with a more abstract interface. For example by separating the user interface from the application logic.

Metro simply is yet another vendor lock-in in a world that has moved on years ago. Even VT100 terminals have a brighter future than it.

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