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Apple Comes Clean, Admits To Doing Market Research

Soulskill posted more than 2 years ago | from the users-sometimes-do-know-what-they-want dept.

Iphone 221

colinneagle writes "In an interview with Fortune a few years ago, Steve Jobs explained that Apple never does market research. Rather, they simply preoccupy themselves with creating great products. On Monday, Apple's Greg Joswiak — the company's VP of Product Marketing — submitted a declaration to the Court explaining why documents relating to Apple's market research and strategy should be sealed. Every month, Apple surveys iPhone buyers and Joswiak explains what Apple is able to glean from these surveys. And as you might expect, Apple conducts similar surveys with iPad buyers. Apple wants all of these tracking studies sealed. Joswiak explains that if a competitor were to find out what drives iPhone purchases — whether it be FaceTime, battery life, or Siri — it would serve as an unfair competitive edge to rival companies. Further, competitors, as it stands today, have to guess as to which demographics are most satisfied with Apple products." A few other interesting facts have come out of the trial so far; Apple spent $647 million advertising the iPhone in the U.S. from its launch through fiscal 2011, and they spent $457.2 million advertising the iPad from its launch up to the same point.

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They've turned their backs on Steve (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877791)

Obviously, since he died, this new generation of Apple leaders have lost their way. They need to turn back to Steve before it's too late and realize that only through him can they find the correct path. And that path is not through market research, it's through listening to Steve's own words and letting them into your heart.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877827)

except the marketing research was done while steve was a live...

dude, steve jobs wasnt even that important to apple, he was just charismatic guy they use as a frontman. johny ive was already at apple before jobs got their and tim cook was at apple for the entire "jobs era". steve jobs is a pretty cool guy but they total exaggerate his role in the company.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877871)

Tim Cook took over a long time before he died. I don't buy for a second that Steve would have tolerated this if he had still been in charge.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877909)

before jobs got their

<whimper>

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877941)

The whole Steve Jobs is a genius god-child things was definitely part of an Apple marketing push. Go back and read the mainstream press coverage of things like the iPod or the lampshade iMac, and they make it sound like the designs appeared to Jobs like a vision while he was meditating in nature. But, as the Samsung trial materials show, Apple actually does a shit load of design iteration.

There's been rumors for years that Apple does extremely detailed market research and very much understands their 'psychographics'. However the fanboys have been in complete denial because they want to believe it's all about the product and there's no highly sophisticated marketing operation targeting them. (PS the products are pretty fucking good too.)

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (3, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878787)

Apple had the same advantage that Palm had before them: someone willing to say 'no, this sucks' and be listened to. There's a story about the first iteration of the Palm Pilot, where the CEO saw it and decided it was too big. He got a block of balsa wood cut that was just small enough to fit in his shirt pocket and gave it to the product development team with an edict that the final version must be no bigger than that. Without someone like that, they'd have ended up with something too big to be conveniently carried. Steve Jobs had the same role at Apple: it wasn't producing great products, or products that could not be improved, it was to produce products that were definitely useful. As long as 'how Steve Jobs would use it' and 'how a normal human would use it' weren't too far apart, it worked well. Sometimes, it didn't - there were a few flops along the way - but a product designed for a specific user is far more likely to be useable in general than one designed for some set of focus-group set of requirements plus any features that engineers thought they could sneak in.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878367)

So out of curiosity, what's a live? or is the question what's an a live?

The research that was described as not occurring was 'what do you want in a phone' (or tablet). We know for sure that didn't happen, because if it did we would have been having a conversation in 1999 about what Apple was planning in the way of a phone.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877845)

Why should we be surprised? Tim Cook and his wannabes think patent lawsuits and imitating MS are the way to innovate. Steve knew better.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (5, Informative)

dadioflex (854298) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877887)

Um, Tim Cook isn't that keen on patent lawsuits and most of the ones currently making headlines started under Steve Jobs and his total thermonuclear war on Android.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877957)

Steve fought Android by making a better product. I pray that Tim Cook will come back to the old ways soon, and think about what Steve tried to teach him. But I'm not seeing it so far.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878025)

No he didn't. That's why Android is outselling iOS by about 2 to 1.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878111)

Perhaps, but which product line is generating the bulk of the profits?

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878181)

Yeah that is the first thing I check when shopping for new hardware, which one gets had the most profit into the pockets of the manufacturer.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (4, Informative)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878763)

Yeah that is the first thing I check when shopping for new hardware, which one gets had the most profit into the pockets of the manufacturer.

Exactly.

Why are Apple customers so proud of the fact that they overpay for their products?

Would we all see cheaper cell service if carriers pockets weren't being emptied into Apple's coffers? [cnn.com] How about iPhone users start giving back to the their fellow citizens by switching to Android, instead of inflicting the cost of these overpriced device on the rest of the cell phone users. Every iPhone sold is a money out of my pocket, by way of higher carrier bills [latimes.com] .

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878257)

That means Windows is a better product than Linux, right? Same for OS X?

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (5, Insightful)

arth1 (260657) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878143)

Steve fought Android by making a better product.

When is it going to be released?

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878837)

1996 called.

They want their apple hate jokes back

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (2)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877981)

Yes. People forget that Jobs has not been "missing" for long, and that what Apple is doing now originated during Jobs' tenure. We are witnessing his own decisions being processed.

It's similar to how a new president still operates under the old president's fiscal budget for several months (through October).

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878431)

Um, Tim Cook isn't that keen on patent lawsuits and most of the ones currently making headlines started under Steve Jobs and his total thermonuclear war on Android.

He could stop them at any time.

No, seriously, he could stop them at any time. If he really wasn't so keen on patent lawsuits, he could man up and have the balls to say that Jobs was a psychopath whose obsessions would have eventually destroyed the company if he were still alive, change course, and not make a laughingstock of Apple. He has the power in the company to do just that.

But he doesn't do it. And he won't do it. And he's the one making the decision not to do it. Not Jobs; Jobs is dead. Cook is the one ordering the lawyers to go ahead with all the lawsuits.

Like it or not, this is the post-Jobs era at Apple. Specifically, this is the Tim Cook era at Apple. Period.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (2)

jones_supa (887896) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877905)

It's interesting to see where the company will end up in the hands of Tim Cook. For now Apple can just make "more of the same" but that trick can't work forever.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (5, Interesting)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878961)

Exactly.

My last block of Apple stock is going to be sold in the run up to the iPhone 5 release. I will be out of that issue prior to the actual announcement. Its been a good run, more than doubled my investment in a couple years, but now its time to go, ahead of the disappointment sure to arrive when iPhone 5 is nothing but an incremental improvement.

Buy the rumor. Sell the news.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877851)

They need to turn back to Steve before it's too late and realize that only through him can they find the correct path.

I just had two Jesus freaks come to my door this Morning sounding just like that.

For some reason they think that there are people in the Western World who have never heard of Jesus.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (3, Funny)

AngryDeuce (2205124) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877859)

How long before baptisms and communion services are offered at the Genius Bar?

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (3, Funny)

meerling (1487879) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877937)

Hey, at least circumcisions weren't on that list.
Wait, does that mean they already do that?

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

Omestes (471991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878363)

Come see the new iSnip, now with rounded corners!

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

cpu6502 (1960974) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877899)

Except the Holy Jobs lied to us. They DO do market research. I'm so disillusioned.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877969)

yep, but that's not really news. dozens of companies have done apple related market research, news orgs, retail chains etc.

it's sort of interesting because Apple is a public company though.

However.. the research is just self serving. what does "Design" mean in context like that? friggin nothing.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878553)

Actually, Steve said that they don't use focus groups, which as far as I can tell is true. If they didn't do market research how could he have always presented "XX% of new Macs are going to first-time buyers" and "XX% of iPhone buyers are switching from another device", etc.?

Apple does some absurd stuff, but them "coming clean" and "admitting" this is just fabricating a headline for clicks (which I suppose worked!).

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878949)

As usual here a lie is made by twisting the truth. He was talking about market research telling them what products to pursue or markets to enter, that is the consumer would be driving the business goals. Apple clearly didn't do that. There was no clamor for yet another MP3 player, yet another smartphone, yet another tablet. But that's OK, Steve is dead and the hapless harping hypocrites will continue their attacks and telling themselves how gloriously wonderful and clever they are for using some other product (Windows, Linux, Droids) even if it's substandard or blatantly imitative.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877907)

Yeah, like Ford should realize that cars are best manufactured from raw materials in a single gigantic plant, and that the customers' choice of colors should be black.

Slavish devotion to the visionary founder leads to failure. For one thing, times change, and change quickly. For another, what the visionary founder says and what he actually did are sometimes different things.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878027)

And that path is not through market research, it's through listening to Steve's own words and letting them into your heart.

... And you do go pray at the next apple store ...

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878043)

I miss Reaper [wikipedia.org] .

It is revealed in the first season finale that Steve is still "alive", and is now an angel (again). Subsequently, other demons follow 'The Way of Steve' in an attempt to emulate his path to Heaven.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878147)

Oh ye of little hope.

You forget, my son, that it is written in the ancient scriptures (and therefore must be true and not just a lame final joke that some clown from the past was playing on the future) that He shall returneth to this earth and rescueth it from its dull electronics abyss and that mankind will once again be ineth awe of his Coolness and buyeth scads more iStuff.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878169)

id10t says what? I says your f**king deluded, and Siri agrees.

All that we are seeing is that Jobs lied. Its that simple.. no one should've really believed that lie in the first place.. because *NO COMPANY* would just blindly put out something without looking at how to make it better, more popular, more well liked ... any of you guppies that believed the lie... welcome to the smelling salts side of life.. where even your precious Steve Jobs and Apple stink like the rest of them.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878567)

Uh.. Hate to wilt your hate-boner but nobody took what "Saint Jobs" meant literally. The man was prone to make exaggerations for emphasis, and anyone with a clue know what he meant was something like "Our competitors cluelessly follow some market research tools and make shitty products because of it. We take a much more pragmatic approach because we know what the fuck we're doing." Of course they take some input from market research. It's a valuable tool, but too many ineffective people use it as a crutch.

I doubt you'd have the balls to confront the man on his assertion anyway. The man had /presence/. Even the end-of-life, sickly, emaciated Steve Jobs would have destroyed you with a glance and a few harsh words, leaving you and your ego little more than a quivering pile of unflavored luke warm jello.

Re:They've turned their backs on Steve (2)

jkrise (535370) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878227)

listening to Steve's own words and letting them into your heart

Yeah, the idiotic bit about going thermo-nuclear against Android for copying a rounded rectangle.

Summon his ghost. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877815)

Put the executives in a room with a glass and a board of letters. Watch the magic happen as the late Mr. Jobs tells them what to do next.

Hint: (5, Funny)

Anne_Nonymous (313852) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877831)

>> Joswiak explains that if a competitor were to find out what drives iPhone purchases â" whether it be FaceTime, battery life, or Siri â" it would serve as an unfair competitive edge

Hint: It's that patented rectangular shape.

Re:Hint: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877843)

Smashy ass wilson dancin' on your grave! There he is being nothingness ultimatum!

Sink, I farted out of my own asshole...! Such a thing!

Re:Hint: (2)

Alumoi (1321661) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877977)

Hint: well built gadget aimed at metrosexuals

Re:Hint: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878135)

People by Iphones because they're hip & cool. They don't give a crap about battery life.

So, Steve Jobs was a liar too (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877839)

Not only was he megalomaniac, but a liar too. Who knew?

Re:So, Steve Jobs was a liar too (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877869)

He was a reptilian Rothschild Zionist. He was not running Apple, it was the true reptilians just outside of our frequency range. Look at how many man hours have gone into raking your brain over Apple, while the world government progresses its agenda through aspartame

No marketting research? (1)

jamstar7 (694492) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877867)

Yeah, right. Marketting research tells you who wants to buy your stuff. If they haddn't bothered with it, Apple would have died back when they finished burning their original funding on beer, weed, and pizza in Steve's garage.

Those who don't buy your products ... (1)

perpenso (1613749) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877975)

Marketting research tells you who wants to buy your stuff.

Not entirely. More importantly, market research also tells you what people who are not buying your products want or need. Getting feedback from people who do not choose your products can be more important than feedback from your customers.

Re:Those who don't buy your products ... (1)

Sir_Sri (199544) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878899)

Very true. Once someone has your product you want to retain them as a customer, in the phone market this means coming up with something worth having every couple of years so they upgrade, or at least keeping in step with the competition. It can also mean trying to lock them to your platform by making migration hard (for example if you couldn't get your phone contacts from your iphone to a droid).

The people you are interested in are the ones who would only buy your product if it had ______________. Then you figure out how much money that works out to, and how much it would cost to implement, and work from there.

Re:Those who don't buy your products ... (1)

icebike (68054) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878923)

Marketting research tells you who wants to buy your stuff.

Not entirely. More importantly, market research also tells you what people who are not buying your products want or need. Getting feedback from people who do not choose your products can be more important than feedback from your customers.

But Apple didn't do that, they only ate their own dog food.

Every month, Apple surveys iPhone buyers and Joswiak explains what Apple is able to glean from these surveys. And as you might expect, Apple conducts similar surveys with iPad buyers.

So what they learned only helps them attract that same customer again and again, which is precisely why most apple fanboys dump their perfectly good current model and rush out an replace it with the next model the instant it comes out, even if they have to pay an Early Termination Fee to do so.

Far from attracting the majority of new customers, Apple is mostly eating its young, singing to its own choir, reselling to the same crowd.

The research plan is fundamentally flawed, and has resulted in Apple's total domination of the smartphone market being cut in half over the years.

Big surprise... (0)

Telecommando (513768) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877927)

Rich people lie.

I hear rumors that water is wet, as well.

Re:Big surprise... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40877971)

Poor people lie too last time I checked.

Re:Big surprise... (2)

MachDelta (704883) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878081)

Yeah but they don't do it quite as much [latimes.com] , on average.

Re:Big surprise... (1)

icebraining (1313345) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878893)

An habitual truth-teller is simply an impossible creature; he does not exist; he never has existed. Of course there are people who think they never lie, but it is not soâ"and this ignorance is one of the very things that shame our so-called civilization. Everybody liesâ"every day; every hour; awake; asleep; in his dreams; in his joy; in his mourning; if he keeps his tongue still, his hands, his feet, his eyes, his attitude, will convey deceptionâ"and purposely. Even in sermonsâ"but that is a platitude.

On the Decay of the Art of Lying [gutenberg.org] , by Mark Twain.

Hah... (1, Insightful)

Brawlking (2590947) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877931)

Once again, Apple afraid of a little competition, the same reason the sue everyone and their dog.

iApple (1)

MrKaos (858439) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877965)

iMarket, therefore iAm

The Article is Wrong (5, Insightful)

wzinc (612701) | more than 2 years ago | (#40877999)

Obviously, Steve meant market research for future products. The article describes a survey of existing customers, and I've gotten them before. While this plays a part in product development, they don't use focus groups. It's one of those things where, if Apple asked outside people (not customers), "what do you want in a phone," they'd end-up with a terrible product. Instead, they make the phone they, themselves want to use. As they've stated in their conference calls, they only enter markets where they think they can improve things. One example is student information systems. They sold PowerSchool to Pierson, exiting that market because they felt they couldn't do a killer product there. It's so obvious how they work; the only mystery is what future products will be. They keep those under wraps because, if they decide to scrap it or change it dramatically, there won't be a Microsoft-CES-announcement-style embarrassment. As the Samsung court documents show, they have hundreds of iterations of products that never see the light of day.

Re:The Article is Wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878069)

This.

Re:The Article is Wrong (1)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878075)

Steve meant market research for future products.

Are you his spokesperson? How do you know what he meant?

Re:The Article is Wrong (4, Informative)

wzinc (612701) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878495)

Nope, I listen to the quarterly conference calls.

Re:The Article is Wrong (1)

Haawkeye (2680377) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878091)

I am still sure they do some reasearch Into their products. I a, happy with all my apple products (iPhone, iPad and MacBook pro). I have never heard someone complain about them.

Re:The Article is Wrong (0)

Omestes (471991) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878537)

I have never heard someone complain about them.

And you're on Slashdot?

  Hell, if you want a novel experience, I'll complain about them for you, for the low low price of free.

I don't like Apple products. I, and my household, have owned several OS X devices (MacMini, iBook, MacBook, iPod's, etc...), and I'm not a fan of any of them, hence selling them all off. Except the iPods, I don't like them, but they really are the least-worse, and once they kill the Classic, I won't be buying more. I hated how OS X updates, including silly service pack things, which are often free from 3rd parties, and minor API bits which basically channel 3rd party devs into closing backwards support. You have to buy every service pack, or you're going to be deprived of updates. I didn't like how consistent their UI was either, every Apple app had to have a unique look (Ooh this one is grey, this one is brushed metal, this one is wood, this on is... pinstrip?), which broke their own holy design standards. I didn't like the fact that they bloated everything in expectation that I'd only own "I" devices. I really dislike the rounded corner (used cough-drop) aesthetic that their UI and hardware has. It was nice when everything was a beige box, but we've moved on, they haven't. I really dislike their hardcore fans, much more annoying than other annoying fanboys. I don't like the fact that every Apple product I owned has died before the non-Apple equivelent, and are often completely non-user-serviceable. Stock iPod headphones are terrible.

*deep breath*

I hate the walled garden approach of the various iOS devices. I dislike the amount of kludge introduced to keep them only having one button, for the sake of having one button. It reminds of their stupid insistence on having the worst, least useful, mice in the industry for years, for no reason but one guy's version of aesthetics. Aesthetics are fine, until you gimp usability and utility for their sake. Aesthetics are a means to an end, not an end to itself. I dislike the iPhone upgrade cycle (a new phone every year, two year average contract be damned, if you don't like it we'll artificially gimp upgrades!), I dislike the aesthetics of the thing (its ugly). I dislike the disconnect from their image and the reality of their manufacture. I dislike the cultish hipsterism of their marketing and consumer direction. I dislike how iOS, and their gadget demographic, has killed the whole "Apple is for artists" thing, and dumbed down ALL of their products for the casual, hipster, "me too!" demographic.

I could go on. But I won't.

And, again, I owned several Apple products, I still own some. I don't actually hate them, or think that all their products suck. They work for some people, and that is fine. You liking Apple doesn't affect me in the slightest, the same with my not really being a fan of them. I was very fond of them for some time (my girlfriend was a lifelong cult-of-Mac type, until some bad experiences and my corruption). I, sometimes, really miss my MacMini, it was a much better HTPC than pretty much anything else I've owned. I also don't really think that much of the competition is much better, they just feel a bit more honest. I don't mean literally honest, but they feel more substantial, more WYSIWG...

Agree, but small nitpick (1)

srussia (884021) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878125)

Instead, they make the phone they, themselves want to use.

What Steve himself wanted to use.

FTFY

Re:The Article is Wrong (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878397)

yes so they asked your opinion about your current product to NOT use that information for future products

ok thanks for that, sure you had a tear in your eye when you wrote it

Re:The Article is Wrong (1)

wzinc (612701) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878481)

Fortunately for me, I said this, "While this plays a part in product development, they don't use focus groups."

Re:The Article is Wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878607)

Yes, the article is wrong, but what Steve said is that they don't use /focus groups/. Quote, in point: "It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

Of course they use market research. If they didn't do market research how could he have always presented "XX% of new Macs are going to first-time buyers" and "XX% of iPhone buyers are switching from another device", etc.?

Joswiak? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878005)

Jo[b]s/W[ozn]iak? Coincidence?

Re:Joswiak? (1)

Asic Eng (193332) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878529)

Coincidence?

Yes.

who (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878009)

the fuck cares.

let's see them try to justify using slave labour.

In other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878029)

I chewed a piece of gum yesterday.

Usual posturing (0)

kervin (64171) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878041)

Apple's competitors already know what drives IPhone/IPad sales. Yes, Apple's numbers are more authoritative, but 3rd party survey firms provide decent results. Why would consumer opinion be a secret? Especially to firms with billions to gain or lose on their attitudes.

Apple is arguing that their documents are basically trade secrets and hence should be protected by/from the court. I imagine that $600M marketing figure is "Movie studio finance". You know when a studio gets sued over a $500M blockbuster, that movie's reported on the books as a loss. Apple has to show that they've put a lot of money in building their market position. The more they show, the more likely they'll get higher damages. The lawyers aren't going to perjure themselves, but they will be creative as to what falls under 'Marketing'.

Samsung, I'm guessing, will argue that to defend themselves they'll need more specifics relating to how Apple spent all that marketing money. I'm also guessing they'll take a swipe at actual trade secrets whilst they're at it.

Personally, I don't think Apple should have it's cake and eat it to. If you're going to ask for $2B+ in damages, partly substantiated by the $600M you spent then you should have to show how that money was spent ( within reason ). But It'll be interesting how Koh decides this.

They're not calling this case 'Samsung vs. Koh' for nothing.

Squeaky clean? (1)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878073)

Wow, the formerly squeaky clean image of Apple seems to be crumbling away before our very eyes.

Re:Squeaky clean? (1)

Haawkeye (2680377) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878127)

I am not so sure. I think it is apple saying do your own damn research. For most people it looks like Samsung is cheating and took some of apple's ideas. I am not saying they did. I am saying it looks like it.

Re:Squeaky clean? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878657)

I am not so sure. I think it is apple saying do your own damn research. For most people it looks like Samsung is cheating and took some of apple's ideas. I am not saying they did. I am saying it looks like it.

I have bad news for you. Apple is guilty of the same thing, and has been since almost day one. Nothing they have done was in a vacuum.

Pot, this is Kettle. You're black.

Here's the secret (2, Insightful)

dosius (230542) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878095)

And it's as anticlimactic as the cough syrup in Flaming Moes... they buy it because it has an Apple logo on it. The logo itself is a status symbol.

-uso.

Re:Here's the secret (0)

Haawkeye (2680377) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878145)

I didn't I bought it because it really liked the iPhone. I don't care what logo is on it. I have seen android phones I like as well. I don't like the fragmentation in the android market. I don't want to spend a ton of time fixing or tinkering on my computer that in the end is why I bought it. I often recommend other computer systems to people. I just like how apple has taken the time and the quality of computer seems a lot higher.

Re:Here's the secret (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878543)

Market fragmentation hasn't affected me in the slightest, and I haven't spent a single minute fixing or tinkering with a windows system I purchased 5 years ago.
You bought the iDevice because you bought the marketing pitch which told you that market fragmentation was a problem and that you'd have to spend time fixing and tinkering with your windows system. If you'd have kept your reason to "I liked the hardware and the platform", then I'd have believed you. But your obvious need to rationalize your decision in terms of making the purchase due to shadowy hints at shortcomings of the competition gave you away.

Re:Here's the secret (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878199)

One of the linked articles say that over 54% of those surveyed say they buy apple because they "trust apple brand"

Re:Here's the secret (5, Insightful)

surgen (1145449) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878207)

The logo itself is a status symbol.

I used to think this was just an insult to apple buyers. Then the iPhone 4s came out. I'll never forget the first words that came out of my apple buying friend's mouth after seeing the design. "How will anyone be able to tell I have the new one?"

Re:Here's the secret (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878373)

You have to try to talk to it with an apologetic look on your face.

Re:Here's the secret (1, Insightful)

Teckla (630646) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878965)

The logo itself is a status symbol.

I used to think this was just an insult to apple buyers. Then the iPhone 4s came out. I'll never forget the first words that came out of my apple buying friend's mouth after seeing the design. "How will anyone be able to tell I have the new one?"

An anecdote changed your mind? And for this you get +5 Insightful?

Pathetic.

Re:Here's the secret (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878235)

And it's as anticlimactic as the cough syrup in Flaming Moes... they buy it because it has an Apple logo on it. The logo itself is a status symbol.

It's hard to be a status symbol or niche when everyone around you has one:

        http://kevinhan0520.blogspot.com/2007/11/apples-in-classroom.html

How about: they buy it because, generally speaking, Apples make the least crappy product out there.

I work in IT, and generally like running Unix-y systems for all the back-end stuff, but I always steer my family to Apple products because if I'm going to be stuck supporting them, I want to have something that is less of an opaque black box that I generally find Windows to be. Apple products generally Just Work(tm), and while Windows has improved over the years (7 is quite good), it has in fact taken them years to get to this point. By simply sticking with the Unix underpinnings (which the lay person knows nothing about) of most Apple products, the regular Joe would have a lot less crap to deal with over the years by buying Apple.

You may not like their prices, or their controlling nature, but Apple has had quality products for the proverbial Grandma for quite some time now. Computers are simply like toasters for the general population: they just want it to work.

Joswiak? (2)

Kyogreex (2700775) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878101)

Joswiak? Sounds like Jobs + Wozniak.

Re:Joswiak? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878281)

Actually, ( Jobs + Wozniak ) / 2

Ignore market research saturation will rule. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878115)

A Toyota owner and Apple owner feel is made to feel superior by the marketing and hype surrounding their purchase. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with being more expensive, but the majority reason for Apple and Toyota success is not superior tech. It is the age old cache of being trendy, as the Toyota and Apple products are not necessarily superior to the competition but they are definitely better marketed and sold. The end result is higher resale value for the consumer which is great until the market becomes saturated and the resale price plummets as witness what has happened in the PC and auto markets.

For instance I can purchase an off lease GMC pickup truck 30-40% below the used price of a similarly equipped Toyota truck. And if I want to sell a 2 year old Mac Book pro I can at least expect to get 700 bucks where with a 2 year old HP or Dell of similar specs I am lucky if I get 200 bucks!

So trendy and exclusive sells, and also re-sells well. In a few years when the market is completely flooded with used Ipads and Mac Books and Toyota trucks then things will be different. I predict that in future an Ipad 3 will resell for peanuts the same way PC Laptops now do because the sales are high. Apple would be smart to not flood the market because if the 3 is as good as they hype it up to be then the next generation might not sell unless they do something really radical again, and from a consumers point of view why buy new if the new has nothing new to offer other than cache.

"Market research" is many things (5, Insightful)

obarthelemy (160321) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878117)

Using it as Apple is saying here, to survey users, is one thing. It helps gather info on actual uses, usage patterns, customer feedback.

Using it to design a product or to test a product design, is quite another, especially if, like often, it ends up justifying half-baked committee-think. Apple forte has been Steve Job's "I'm the customer, please me" stance, which is far superior to the "Make none of us dislike it too much" design-by committee version. It requires strong leadership. Apple had that, and storng value too: sexiness and easse of use.

As an Android user, I wish, I wish Google did more user surveys. There are a handful of very easy changes that would make Android rock, observably so, including in the shop right next to an iPad.

Re:"Market research" is many things (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878803)

Who is Steve Job?

How is market research relevant? (1)

blagooly (897225) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878131)

How is market research relevant to patent squabbles?

OT: A still open question, how much credit belongs to Jobs? (Has it been documented?) Fans will dismiss the market research as a curse, blasphemy, when perhaps they should be happy about it? Any part of the process that did not require Job's input can be reproduced, and would mean the company could continue its happy, profitable path.

Re:How is market research relevant? (1)

chowdahhead (1618447) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878293)

I'm not sure it's a smoking gun either by any stretch, but I suppose this revelation proves that Apple's design process isn't closed, but rather based largely on perceptions of their products respective of their competition. Clearly, adopting things like OTA updates, the notification bar, unlock directly to camera, and so forth already prove that they've closely monitored their competitors, integrated their features, and adapted to where the market is going. Contrary to Apple's claims, they haven't always been the pace car leading the pack, they've done quite a bit of following too, as has everyone else producing these devices. It's not clear what connection Samsung is trying to make, but it's probably something along these lines.

Like it's really hard to guess (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878203)

My iPad 1st gen's battery lasts a lot when I use it, and a hell of a lot more if I leave it sitting there. I play a game once a week, and I need the battery life then. Don't want to pause to charge. After that, I leave it on my desk an use it very lightly. I recharge it once a month. I'm having trouble getting devices that last a week in standby and more than 3 hours of use (or about 1 hour on wi-fi) - exception: Samsung Galaxy Apollo - 2 weeks in standby on 3G, 4 days with wi-fi on - but my iPad is ALWAYS on wi-fi (no 3G on it) and does that standby time.

To the Apple's so called competition: get a clue!

Re:Like it's really hard to guess (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878509)

I recharge it once a month [citation needed]

I call complete and utter bullshit on that one.

To late anyway? (1)

ewanm89 (1052822) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878319)

Isn't this whole case about the fact Samsung has figured it out already?

How is Apple's market research a trade secret? (1)

NixieBunny (859050) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878353)

Any company can poll people to find out what they think of Apple products. It's not like Apple is the only company capable of finding Apple customers - call 100 people at random, and 30 of them will be Apple customers.

Re:How is Apple's market research a trade secret? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878633)

The secret (Apple's secret) is knowing /which/ questions to ask. If competitors see that Apple is ignoring some lines of questioning (or disregarding them after collection) and instead focussing in unexpected areas or concepts and can thus glean info on where to focus their own product design and QA, that harms Apple.

What? (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878385)

Steve Jobs was full of shit? Next you will be telling us that he was an arrogant asshat too!

for shame...

False dichotomy (5, Insightful)

harperska (1376103) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878401)

I think that the summary misses a major point. Sure there was a bit of hyperbole when Steve said that Apple never did market research. But every word that came out of that man's mouth was hyperbole. What I think Steve's point was is that Apple doesn't base their product categories on market research. They just use market research for refining products once the categories are established. They didn't base the idea to have an all-touchscreen smartphone, a high capacity hard-drive based mp3 player, or a GUI centric PC on market research. If they did, they would have found out that people were perfectly happy with their blackberry and symbian keyboard smartphones, their low capacity flash mp3 players, and their DOS based IBM PCs.

Re:False dichotomy (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878621)

This is slashdot, kindly keep context out of this. We have witches to burn tonight.

Re:False dichotomy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878711)

but I'd don't think Steve said that at all. He said they didn't use /focus groups/. "It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

Re:False dichotomy (5, Insightful)

Asic Eng (193332) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878713)

Apple is remarkable good at retroactively inventing things. Like hard-drive based mp3 players, the idea for which was stolen from them e.g. in 1998 by Compaq (4.8 GB), in 2000 by Creative (Nomad, 6 GB) and in the same year by Archos (6 GB). Then Apple re-invented the entire market by bringing out a player with ... 5 GB in 2001. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_media_player [wikipedia.org]

It's understandable that so many people believe Apple came up with the idea, considering the advertising budget. Many probably didn't even realize that mp3 players existed before Apple told them about it.

whatever (0)

ReWoP (2499004) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878455)

what you people don't realize is that no matter what you say about Apple, it will ALWAYS be successful! Even with Steve gone Apple has a roadmap that it will follow and they will be successful, PERIOD!! You people just dont get it do you. I remember when people said the iPhone will never sell,,i remember when the iPod came out and critics said it was going nowhere.LOL. The iPod has sold more units then EVERY OTHER MP3 PLAYER COMBINED ON THIS PLANET!!LMFAO. It has sold more music fro the iTunes store and apps from the App store then anyone else ever has or ever will.. You people just dont get it do you. I laugh at Apple Haters, just jealous of SUCCESS and products that actually do change your life..

Advertising numbers (1)

PPalmgren (1009823) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878519)

That's pretty rediculous, $1.1 billion advertising two new products?! I always knew Apple was a marketing company but damn.

This could simply be because I haven't seen regular ad numbers before though. Does anyone know what competing products have spent on advertising? That kind of information would help make more sense of their numbers.

Customer Satisfaction not Product Design (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 2 years ago | (#40878643)

Apple doesn't do market research for product design. They do market research for customer satisfaction all the time.

"coming clean" (1, Insightful)

Jaktar (975138) | more than 2 years ago | (#40878925)

How does Apple presenting an argument in a court case amount to "coming clean"? If they didn't make the arguments for keeping these sealed their oh-so-amazing case studies would be out.

That's not coming clean. That's standard legal babble.

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