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Coming Soon: Burn-Proof CDs

CmdrTaco posted more than 13 years ago | from the thats-not-so-cool dept.

Music 673

An Anonymous Coward writes: "This article on MSNBC opens the door to the "Copyright protected CD's". Apparently the very first copyright protected cd is set to burn this April for some country star's album. Copyright protected cd's do not allow you to replicate them in a cd burner nor do they allow you to rip the audio tracks "digitally" (although can still be done through analog)." I wonder how long before someone finds a way around this. Actually the article is well-written, covering all the bases, although it neglects to say how we're all expected to bend over while our fair use of stuff we paid for is taken away from us.

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Sales gimmick (5)

Brento (26177) | more than 13 years ago | (#334709)

Oddly, this will really, really increase sales of this particular CD, and the music industry will say it's because people can't pirate it. But they'll have it backwards.

Tons of us will race out and buy a Charlie Pride CD (even though we abhor country music) simply because we want to try to break it. We want to see whether or not it's really burnproof, and whether we can be the first to figure out the easy way around it.

The industry will hail the huge sales of this CD as demonstrable proof that non-copyable CD's enjoy higher revenues because us nasty mean hackers can't make copies of Charlie Pride's wonderful stuff, and thus we have to buy several copies for our car, our office, etc. They'll show this fact to other recording artists and say, "See, you too could be enjoying this kind of royalty," and the artists will lick their chops in anticipation. I guarantee they'll be a long line of artists willing to be the second burn-proof CD.

solution has been found (3)

mach-5 (73873) | more than 13 years ago | (#334710)

Don't buy the CD, if you don't agree with the copyright protection. The RIAA will eventually realize that their sales are dropping because of the copyright protection and they are better off without it.

Great... (1)

Jethro73 (14686) | more than 13 years ago | (#334711)

Unbelievable. How about fair use? I copy my CDs so I don't have to carry the originals in the car. I guess you can forget about that, as well as "best-of" cds...

Jethro

Cactus (2)

Peter Dyck (201979) | more than 13 years ago | (#334712)

There already was a rip-proof CD in Europe. If I remember correctly, BMG (of the Napster fame) had a system called Cactus that prevented CDDA extraction.

I am an unfortunate owner of one such CD.

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

ConsumedByTV (243497) | more than 13 years ago | (#334713)

Or one hacker will do it and put it on napster with in minutes of the release :)


Fight censors!

Re:solution has been found (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#334714)

Yeah, right.

You want to stop buying music when all CDs are eventually copy protected?

So how does the player play it? (1)

opeuga (208321) | more than 13 years ago | (#334715)

What does burn proofing involve? Obviously a CD player can play it... I'm seriously missing how you can secure a CD while it still able to play in a normal CD player.

Weird... (5)

kzinti (9651) | more than 13 years ago | (#334716)

I'm sure this is just coincidence, but when I clicked on the poll on the left margin ("Do you support copy-proctected CDs?") to vote "NO", their site took me to a blank page. When I tried to go back to the article, still nothing... blank page. Shortly after that, Netscape crashed. By now they have no doubt logged my IP address and sent a complaint to my ISP that I'm a potential pirate, and asking that my account be revoked.

On the other hand, maybe I've been watching too much X-Files. And it's early... yeah, that's the ticket... early... brain not function... must... get... caffiene...

Didn't they do this already... (1)

i_know_it (303523) | more than 13 years ago | (#334717)

With playstation 1?

What's really happening here? (1)

crovira (10242) | more than 13 years ago | (#334718)

This is so stupid. Its so easy to defeat. Just take the waveform from the speaker wires.

Why are our rights being trampled for some company to make a buck with this afternoon's pop-star as filer between the ads?

It certainly NOT because they are trying to stop people from recording the stuff.

Anybody got any thoughts on why this is being done?

Re:So how does the player play it? (1)

Peter Dyck (201979) | more than 13 years ago | (#334719)

Info on Cactus here [maxtarget.com] and here (in German) [brennmeister.com] .

Apparently the protection can be achieved by some sort of trickery with illegal lead-out positions:

Wie schon gesagt, hat die CDR-Software damit alle Möglichkeiten offen - nur in diesem Modus sind so nette Sachen wie illegale Leadout-Position (Cactus Data Shield), Audiotracks

Burning vs Ripping (2)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 13 years ago | (#334720)

From everything I rea din this article, these schemes prevent the ripping of audio data from a CD, since there is extra data that confuses the TOC so that CDROM drives cannot read it. While this will keep your ripping program from working, I do not see how this would prevent the burning of a CD. A simple raw copy using dd or some other command would copy the raw data from the CD, no filesystem or format necessary. Then it is a simple matter of burning that image to a CD. I fail to see how there is any prevention of copying in this.

Re:solution has been found (1)

MxTxL (307166) | more than 13 years ago | (#334721)

Well, i doubt there's that many /. readers that ever WOULD buy a country CD, and i doubt anybody who is a country fan (the actual cowboy-hat wearing, rodeo going types) will not buy the CD just because it has some copy protection on it. Well, unless that stops them from copying it to 8-track so they can play it in their truck. :)

MSNBC... bah. (3)

holloway (46404) | more than 13 years ago | (#334722)

Read the Salon article [salon.com] . There, much better.

bits (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | more than 13 years ago | (#334723)

If my computer can see the bits (and it has to if it can run the software on it) then I can copy those bits. Unless of course they found a way to make "soft" bits on the CD that sometimes read 1 and sometimes 0. That way they could have the program read the same section of data over and over to make sure that the data coming from it is different. I believe that this type of copy protection was used on the old floppies for some Apple II games.
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\ =\=\=\=\

The average user (5)

XorA (147020) | more than 13 years ago | (#334724)

Why is it when schemes like this come out they always use terms like "It will be far too dificult for the average user". Is every person on the internet expected to crack the protection personally. Dont these companies realise all it takes is for one person to write the crack, then the "average user" can just run the program for himself.

It just seems to me at times that large businesses seem unable to comprehend the basic concept of a programmable machine. The ability to store a list of instructions and repeat. Given the manufacturers reluctance to cripple dvd-rom drives, purposely making them easy to mod to multi-region. I bet they start advertising cd-roms that can read these so called protected disks fairly soon after release.

Re:So how does the player play it? (1)

opeuga (208321) | more than 13 years ago | (#334725)

Iß sheisser.

Re:Cactus (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#334726)

and i remember a wired article mentioning the fact that such cds were withdrawn because a minority of ordinary cd players could not play them.

so............instead of boycotting a country cd you'd never have even knew existed otherwise _anyway_ everyone should buy a copy and return it for being faulty.

better still by ten or twenty.

Caoilte

Re:Weird... (2)

Sc00ter (99550) | more than 13 years ago | (#334727)

Worked for me, and 85% of the people said no, the don't want copy protected CDs.
--

Burn resistant, not burn-proof (4)

xigxag (167441) | more than 13 years ago | (#334728)

The article points out that BlindRead, CloneCD and other programs can read bit for bit copies of these copy-protected CDs.

Hence, the technology, as it now stands, only frustrates the casual pirate, not the hardcore fair use maven. Also, N.B., the same article can be found on Salon [salon.com] , and in point of fact actually comes from Inside [inside.com] .

Re:What's really happening here? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#334729)

Just take the waveform from the speaker wires.

That's not a perfect copy like digital audio extraction. Won't do.

Re:What's really happening here? (2)

Hulver (5850) | more than 13 years ago | (#334730)

Recording from the Wire coming out of the back of your stereo system, is not a perfect digital copy. That is what they are trying to stop.
When you rip a CD, you get a (near) perfect digital copy. When you record from the analog output, you get analog with all the extra little effects, artifacts and whatever that various layers of cd player, pre-amp, amp & recording equipment add into the mix.
When you rip a CD, you just have to deal with the little skips & jumps you always get off a CD, the rest of it is a perfect copy.

Question: (2)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 13 years ago | (#334731)

Ever tried copying an audio track with dd?

Re:So how does the player play it? (1)

n0-0p (325773) | more than 13 years ago | (#334732)

As far as I understand it they make the forward error correction (cyclic redundancy checks I think) invalid. That way a CD-ROM will treat the data as invalid. Of course, that all has to do with the firmware on the drive itself, so new firmware can be written to ignore it. The same style of copy protection is used on Sony Play Station games. The real issue, that they mention in the article, is that many high end CD players will not be able to read the CD's. Basically, any of the CD players that do cataloging will probably choke on these things.

Automation; the nature thereof (1)

jacks0n (112153) | more than 13 years ago | (#334733)


In addition to all the usual suspects, it seems to me that there is a point being missed about the nature of automation. The article mentions that the record companies just want to make it hard for the average user to rip. But as long as we're dealing mostly with software, the complexities of writing drivers that ignore bad TOC data, or rippers that do bitwise copies and guess where tracks are (maybe from an online lookup table) can be almost completely transparent to the end user. That is, there is going to be little or no real added complexity. The record companies are not idiots, right? They know that this is only a bump in the road. They just are doing this as a stopgap untill they can strongarm device manufacturers (with stuff like CSS liscencing) into limiting outputs and paying attention to copyright bits and encryption.

Re:Burning vs Ripping (1)

ghoti (60903) | more than 13 years ago | (#334734)

But directly copying a CD isn't such a big problem for them, I guess. It's far more damaging if somebody rips the songs and posts them to a newsgroup or puts them on Napster. It's just called "copy-protection" so they don't have to explain so much.

Oh, and besides ... maybe they put in errors at a very low level that the CD player can ignore by just interpolating between the samples on either side, but that a CDROM cannot, because it has to read the data to copy it.

Re:Cactus (1)

ASCIIMan (47627) | more than 13 years ago | (#334735)

Sounds like a pretty thorny system! haha. hehe.. hoo... That wasn't as funny as I thought it was...

Re:Question: (2)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 13 years ago | (#334736)

Not one track, but a whole CD works fine

Re:Cactus (1)

Peter Dyck (201979) | more than 13 years ago | (#334737)

return it for being faulty.

I did that but I was refused the refund: "It's not faulty if it plays on ordinary CD player".

They can't prevent digital copying... (3)

DeeKayWon (155842) | more than 13 years ago | (#334738)

...unless they can somehow disable the CD Digital out on my DVD-ROM. It's a bit more cumbersome to have to manually record it as .WAV, but there'll be no quality loss. Right now I'm in the process of ripping all of my CDs to Ogg Vorbis format. This kind of bullshit would only prevent me from buying those CDs.

Re:Weird... (1)

Zocalo (252965) | more than 13 years ago | (#334739)

Hmm. It's fallen to 82%, so either 18% of the population don't care about their "fair use" rights (or whatever the local equivalent is) or their is frantic ballot stuffing by the industry going on...

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

Kafka_Canada (106443) | more than 13 years ago | (#334740)

Oddly, this will really, really increase sales of this particular CD, and the music industry will say it's because people can't pirate it. But they'll have it backwards. Tons of us will race out and buy a Charlie Pride CD (even though we abhor country music) simply because we want to try to break it. We want to see whether or not it's really burnproof, and whether we can be the first to figure out the easy way around it. The industry will hail the huge sales of this CD as demonstrable proof that non-copyable CD's enjoy higher revenues because us nasty mean hackers can't make copies of Charlie Pride's wonderful stuff, and thus we have to buy several copies for our car, our office, etc. They'll show this fact to other recording artists and say, "See, you too could be enjoying this kind of royalty," and the artists will lick their chops in anticipation. I guarantee they'll be a long line of artists willing to be the second burn-proof CD.

Most people aren't Slashdotters... the number of people who buy this CD to crack it will be negligible compared to the number who buy it for the music.

So I cannot make copies for my own use? (1)

HerrGlock (141750) | more than 13 years ago | (#334741)

That is against the 'fair use' part of the copyright law.

The other question I have is can you not bit-copy the thing? It would copy the 'copy protection' over to the new one as well, but who cares? It's for my own personal use, I can do with it as I please.

DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]

uncopyable? DCMA? (3)

DirkGently (32794) | more than 13 years ago | (#334742)

Yeah. Right. Just like PSX games.

But even *that's* different, because the PSX hardware is looking for a boot code that doesnt transfer when the disc is copied (the burner's error correction removes it).

But how will thier copy-pro work for a $50 Walmart CD player?

And on the flipside, lets assume this copy protection does what it is supposed to to, if only initially. Lets also assume cdparanoia (for an example of a beautiful piece of software) releases a patch to defeat the copy protection. Aren't they violating the DCMA, as referenced in the interview with Rep Boucher? What recourse does that leave?

dirk

Re:Sales gimmick (5)

TekkonKinkreet (237518) | more than 13 years ago | (#334743)

Mail your burned copy to the record company! Preferably postmarked the day of release...

Assured victory! (1)

Herman Thrust (305558) | more than 13 years ago | (#334744)

I think that's the first article I've ever seen with the words 'Napster' and 'country music' in it. Way to pick your battles, recording folks...

Some PCs won't be able to play these (3)

streetmentioner (28936) | more than 13 years ago | (#334745)

PowerMac G4s, for example, have no analog connection coming out of the CD drive. The CD player software works by ripping the audio data across the IDE/SCSI/USB bus and then feeding it out of the sound card. That won't work with burn-proof CDs.

The problem will get bigger with, for instance, the proliferation of USB speakers, where all data has to be transferred digitally all the way.

Hopefully the population using such schemes will become large enough that the move will be politically impossible by the time the technology is there.

Not entirely a bad thing (5)

BabylonMink (320466) | more than 13 years ago | (#334746)

If they could only limit the use of these disks to Country CDs, then its a blessing in disguise that they prevent duplicates being made of them ;)

Re:Question: (1)

Mawbid (3993) | more than 13 years ago | (#334747)

Eh, really? Then why were cdda2wav and cdparanoia written?
--

People also forget... (2)

gfxguy (98788) | more than 13 years ago | (#334748)

That ultimately WE are the ones paying to have our rights taken away - how much money do you think they invested in the technology? And who pays for it, ultimately? In more ways than one.

Re:So how does the player play it? (1)

ghoti (60903) | more than 13 years ago | (#334749)

Exactly! Now people will buy soundcards with SP/DIF in, and there they go ... it takes longer than ripping a CD the old-fashioned way, but I know people will do everything just to spite the RIAA ...

Re:Question: (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 13 years ago | (#334750)

cdparanoia was written to give you error-free rips from damaged disks. Don't know about cdda2wav.

Re:What's really happening here? (2)

Cuthalion (65550) | more than 13 years ago | (#334751)

Okay, just take the spdif output of your cd player and plug it into your sblive - perfect digital copy. Even if you don't have a setup that can handle that, enough people do that it's moot.

As a related aside, I've a friend who's entire audio system goes through his computer - he stores his music in 2 300 sony cds changers, with toslink optical outputs fed into his linux box. The clever bit is: Since they're Sony audio components, they use the s-link remote control interface - which he hacked up his parallel port to speak. So now he can rip and encode (stream?) any of his cds from anywhere in the world that he can get out on port 22 from.

Re:Weird... (2)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 13 years ago | (#334752)

MSNBC is optimized for
Microsoft Internet Explorer
Windows Media Player


Serves you right for not using the one true browser on the one true OS.

Re:MSNBC... bah. (1)

jridley (9305) | more than 13 years ago | (#334753)

Looks word-for-word identical to the MSNBC article.

Re:Sales gimmick (3)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 13 years ago | (#334754)

I read another article about this, and they said that current burn proof technology uses special sectors on the CD that a CDROM drive can't read. This effectively eliminates listening to the music in any CDROM drive. The RIAA phat-cats have mixed opinions about whether to release CDs that can't be played on a CDROM or not.

I don't know about you, but my only CD player that I own is the one on my computer. Although I rip all of the CDs that I own, sometimes it is easier to download the album from Napster.

Rant on capitalism:
As a capitalistic society, we the consumers have the right to purchase the most value per money that we can. As a matter of fact, we are obligated to so, and it is in our nature to do so. If the RIAA comes out with CD protection that sucks and removes value from music, then we won't buy it. Thus the RIAA will have to trick people into believing that the percieved value of the new CDs is better.

If you really want to put it to the RIAA, then go about informing people about this CD protection and convince people that the RIAA is actually removing value from the CD. In the long run this will hurt the RIAA more than anything else. Inform them with webpages, tell a friend, mention it at a community meeting or school, hang a poster on your locker or wall. You'll find that people do make informed intelligent decisions when given adequate information about things. Large companies don't like this idea so they try to brainwash people through the media.

I made a lot of generalizations in this post, so please comment and tell me what you think! Don't bother correcting my grammar because we both know that it is impeccable.

Re:The average user (1)

jridley (9305) | more than 13 years ago | (#334755)

Also, it only needs to get ripped once and then put on freenet or usenet, and it's all over for that album.

Re:What's really happening here? (3)

cyber-vandal (148830) | more than 13 years ago | (#334756)

Only if you rip it to a .wav of about 40MB. Standard 128k MP3s don't sound as good as CDs (I didn't believe this either until I tried it out).

Re:They can't prevent digital copying... (1)

jridley (9305) | more than 13 years ago | (#334757)

As the article states, this scheme will make most CD-ROM drives unable to play the discs IN AUDIO MODE. One exec is quoted as being sorry that all those people he sees on airplanes listening to legitimate CD's on their laptops are going to get burned by this.

Re:So how does the player play it? (5)

markmoss (301064) | more than 13 years ago | (#334758)

RTFA (read the fine article. In brief, they introduce errors in the table of contents and the data sectors that a typical audio CD player will just skip over, but most CD-ROM driver software will hang up on. So you can't use your computer to listen to or to copy the CD. The music industry seems to believe that no one is smart enough to hack the CD-ROM drivers and change the fault handling. I give it 3 days. Of course, distributing any such hack for the purpose of defeating the security is a violation of the CDMA.

On the other hand, I really would appreciate a premium CD driver that would recover as much data as possible from scratched CD-ROM's. And if that just happens to make it read copy protected CD's...

These will not be Music CDs (2)

Deu (410420) | more than 13 years ago | (#334759)

Surely if they don`t conform to the Redbook standard exactly they will no longer be marketable as music CDs If they sell them as such and they will not work in a player that will play music CDs there are commiting a crime ie, improper description of there product Regards

read the article (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#334760)

Unlike vinyl records, which store music in a continuous spiral, RedBook CDs -- the CDs owned by every music fan -- break up music tracks and distribute them higgledy-piggledy around the disk in "sectors" that are similar to the data sectors on computer hard drives. Because the data are scattered all over the disk, each CD has a "table of contents" that tells the player where to find each track. RedBook CDs run a maximum of 74 minutes and can hold at most 99 tracks -- if a CD is longer or has more tracks, the player won't know how to read the extra music. Importantly, the music sectors on a CD are interwoven with additional error-fixing data that the player's built-in software uses to reconstruct the tracks if dirt or tiny air bubbles from the manufacturing process make little chunks of the disk unreadable.

CD-ROMs, which are also used for computer software, are different. Because CD-ROMs may have hundreds or even thousands of files, they need to handle many more than 99 "tracks," which means they have different, larger tables of contents and can, in theory, hold up to 100 minutes. Because computer programs can't just skip a bit of code if the disk is dirty, CD-ROMs are more exacting about error correction. For that reason, a YellowBook CD-ROM devotes an extra chunk of each data sector to a second method of detecting and fixing flaws.
According to label executives and audio engineers, copy-protection firms take advantage of these differences by adding extra data to both the tables of contents and the music tracks -- data that are ignored by CD players but confuse CD-ROMs. One purchaser of the Midbar-protected version of Razorblade Romance, for instance, reported on Slashdot that an Onkyo CD player had no trouble with the CD, but Cdparanoia, a powerful open-source ripping program, could extract only 30 seconds of it. The CD player, the Slashdotter wrote, displayed "a playing time of 100 minutes, 30 seconds -- not! ... So the trick seems to be that the playing time of 100:30 is interpreted as 00:30." The literal-minded computer software, he suggested, stopped when told it had reached the end, whereas the "hifi-player also says 00:30 of course, but after 30 secs it goes down to 99:59" and plays normally. (Asked about this account, a Midbar representative said the firm "cannot provide more technical information at this time.")

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 13 years ago | (#334761)

Yes Kafka_dood, but you are forgetting that it is a country band. Anybody who actually listens to country music can't afford a CD player.

Although you are correct in stating that only a small number of slashdotters will attempt to crack it, that number will still be larger than the number of country music listeners who can both afford a CD player and have front teeth.

The Bottom Line (2)

smartin (942) | more than 13 years ago | (#334762)

For people that are too lazy to read the article.
  1. Copy protected CD's are coming.
  2. The copy protection is a joke because it's a simple matter of programming to get around it.
  3. Copy protected CD's will cause problems for many audio CD players (and my guess is that the audio quality will drop as they try to put more crap and errors in them to prevent copying - think macrovision)
  4. This is a stepping stone for some future devices that will have intense hardware copy protection and will be locked down and controlled by the music industry as much as possible.
  5. These things will all ultimately fail because the data is put there to be read and played, some one will figure out how to get at it and once the bits are off the disk it's pretty easy to replicate and distribute them.
  6. The only way the general public can protect their rights is to shun any of these new technologies. Unless they provide some compelling reason and benefit the to general public, they should not be successful, especailly if there are competing standards. The installed legacy base is huge and inertia is a very hard thing to overcome.

...crack it, we will. (1)

Alien Perspective (171882) | more than 13 years ago | (#334763)

Slashdot and 2600, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of Napster and many old and famous software projects have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo^H^H^H^H^H^H^HRIAA and all the odious apparatus of DCMA rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in chat-rooms, we shall fight on the Peer-to-Peer networks, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength on the Internet, we shall defend our fair use and free speech rights, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the web, we shall fight by cracking their CDs, we shall fight in the courts and in the media, we shall fight in the TCP/IP packets themselves; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Freedom or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our web-servers beyond the seas, armed and guarded by SSL, would carry on the struggle, until, in Ghod's good time, the New Internet, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

Minbar (1)

Peter Dyck (201979) | more than 13 years ago | (#334764)

Asked about this account, a Midbar representative

I read that first as "a Minbar representative". ;-)

Re:What's really happening here? (1)

ShawnD (21638) | more than 13 years ago | (#334765)

Recording from the Wire coming out of the back of your stereo system, is not a perfect digital copy. That is what they are trying to stop.

What about using the digital SPDIF out on the back of most CDROMs? It may not be as good as cdparanoia or EAC, but it should give better results than analog.

BTW, Why all this worry about going to analog for one generation when you will immediatly mp3 compress the audio which causes much more quality loss.

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 13 years ago | (#334766)

You've never seen Who framed Roger Rabbit? One ton of bricks accelerates at roughly 9.8 m/s^2, which can get quite fast when the ton of bricks happens to be released from about 30 feet above your head. Just ask Roger Rabbit.

Re:MSNBC... bah. (2)

holloway (46404) | more than 13 years ago | (#334767)

Good god, I have lost my faith in moderators.

If it can be played it can be ripped. (2)

mikethegeek (257172) | more than 13 years ago | (#334768)

I don't see any possible way that this will work, short of exploiting the copyright protection schemes in the newwe M$ operating systems (ME, 2000, XP), and even that is doubtful. At most, a minor rewrite to the ripper program will be required.

If the audio tracks will play on a PC CD-ROM drive, then there is a way a ripper can save the tracks. There is just no way around that. And once the track is in MP3 format, there is no copy control.

I see this as a possible attempt by the RIAA to exploit the DMCA ala the MPAA and DeCss. Tey may next be going to court to get CD rippers and MP3 encoders declared "circumvention devices" under the DMCA. And they know how to do it, just file their suit in so-called "judge" Kaplan's "court". (as an aside, perhaps Kaplan could be the Judge Wapner in a new show on the WB called "The Corporates Court").

CD's that employ this kind of copy controls, which will NOT stop piracy, but are intended to prevent me from excercising my right to fair use, SHOULD BE BOYCOTTED! Make them fail in the marketplace. It would seem to me that this copyright control scheme would only really prevent copying on consumer level audio equipment (non PC's), where you can't get at the hardware and change the software.

Perhaps a better title (4)

Levine (22596) | more than 13 years ago | (#334769)

When I read "Burn Proof CDs" I thought the article had something to do with CDRs that were somehow impossible to burn. That didn't make too much sense, believe it or not, so perhaps a better title would be:

Coming Soon: Rip Proof CDs

Unless you're a big fan of, you know, blank CDRs that can't be burned. Sounds like a RIAA concept to me, if there ever was one.

RIAA = Humanitarians (1)

Khan (19367) | more than 13 years ago | (#334770)

Wow...it's really nice to see that Bob Heatherly, the head of Music City Records is such a caring humanitarian. That fact that he REALLY cares about those starving artists is really touching. Nevermind the fact that his profit margin is dropping like a rock because no one wants to pay for an overpriced cd. It's actually quite encouraging to see that unsatisfied music customers aren't just "students and geeks" like some moron once wrote in an article. Country music is a HUGE business and it looks like the folkes that listen to it are just as pissed off about the prices as Joe Computer is. It all boils down to inflated cd prices (and no, we aren't cheapskates...just look at how much we spend on hardware) were music is concerned. The music and movie companies have done a great job convincing the media that we pirate EVERYTHING..when the truth is that most people don't have the time, bandwidth or desire to pirate music, movies etc. even WITH the widespread deployment of Cable and DSL. Do I want to sit here and download a divx movie of a DVD that I can pick up for $15 and watch it on my 36" tv as oppose to my 17" monitor? No, that's just foolish. Do I download a hit single mp3 instead of spending my hard earned cash on a cd that's not really worth it? Yes. If I want just one song, that's all I want to pay for.

This entire cd protection scheme goes back to one thing and one thing alone: control. The industry wants to regain the control that they had prior to mp3s and the internet so that they can continue to screw over the consumer. Why aren't the record companies going after the factories overseas that are mass producing their "art" and selling it on the streets of Hong Kong, LA, NYC, etc. The answer is simple: It's cheaper to buy a law here and enforce it than in any other country. We are being sold out daily and the unfortunate truth is that until it hits Joe Sixpack in the wallet, they won't care about it.

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

BlueUnderwear (73957) | more than 13 years ago | (#334771)

> the number of people who buy this CD to crack it will be negligible compared to the number who buy it for the music

And you also buy Playboy for the articles, right?

I don't understand (1)

Placido (209939) | more than 13 years ago | (#334772)

Is it just me or is everyone really short-sighted? We can record sound by connecting two wires. Until you develop a system which prevents that method of recording sound there is nothing ... wait let me repeat myself... N..O..T..H..I..N..G.. the music industry can do about it! What do they not understand?

P.S. Introducing a law which makes it illegal to connect those two wires is a method of prevention.


Pinky: What are we going to do tomorrow night Brain?

Re:Sales gimmick (1)

TobyWong (168498) | more than 13 years ago | (#334773)

Can't afford a CD player?? What do you think they spend their welfare cheques on? (besides malt liquor)

Re:Burning vs Ripping (1)

sckeener (137243) | more than 13 years ago | (#334774)

yeah, this seems more like a sales pitch to the record industry. I can't see how difficult its going to be to get around the yellow/orange specs. So Micro$oft can't read the cds, big deal...how's that going to stop us?

Ok, who wants to start betting on this? $2 says an mp3 copy of the cd will be out on imess 2 days after release...what do you think?

Re:Cactus (5)

markmoss (301064) | more than 13 years ago | (#334775)

1) Write to your state Attorney General, consumer fraud protection. Computers are commonly used to listen to CD's, so selling CD's that are known to not play on them might be considered fraud, at least unless they are very clearly marked.

2) Take the record store to small claims court. Get 99 friends to do the same. Watch them ship the damned things back and refuse to stock any more...

if it smells like shite it's probably shite (3)

Onan The Librarian (126666) | more than 13 years ago | (#334776)

so don't buy it...learn to listen to better music instead of metallica and 95% of the other pap ladled out to you...don't be so fsck'ing lazy when it comes to listening to music...as mike watt once said, "there are too many liars singing songs these days"...of course the advice is useless when your ears can no longer tell when someone is lying, and mtv and the other culture-dispensers have made damned sure that most of you can't tell sonic shite from shinola...just my two cheerful drachmas, of course... :)

Re:Sales gimmick (3)

Lonesmurf (88531) | more than 13 years ago | (#334777)

Ah, but you aren't thinking far enough into the future, my friend. You see, the reason that this disc is Country is precisely because the record industries already know that all of us will go out, buy and attempt to break the protection scheme. So our best and brightest will quickly go utterly and irreparably insane listening to country music and will be unable to help us in our fight against the Evil that awaits in the immediate future.

Fight the power.

Rami
--

Re:So how does the player play it? (2)

grammar nazi (197303) | more than 13 years ago | (#334778)

Sie machten einen Grammatikfehler in Ihrem Kommentar.

Bitte Refrain von solchen Fehlern zukünftig.

Danke

CD player digital-out (1)

nhw (30623) | more than 13 years ago | (#334779)

So, hands up who has a soundcard with a digital-in. Keep your hand up if you have a CD audio player with a digital-out. Keep your hand up if you are a country music fan, and you make your own MP3s.

Well, let's assume there's one hand still raised; that's all that's needed for this particular CD to be ripped (in the digital domain) and placed onto [insert your P2P MP3 sharing system of choice here].

Well, that wasn't that hard, was it? Looks like the only people who are going to be truly inconvenienced by this are those want to exercise their (jurisdiction dependent) right to make a backup copy of their CD, and don't have the hardware or the technical know-how to circumvent this.

Personal experience with copyprotected audio CD (5)

fuxoft (161836) | more than 13 years ago | (#334780)

Copy-protected audio CD was already released over here (Czech Republic) several weeks ago. (It was a new album by Dan Barta, local artist.) Not that I listen to Dan Barta but I was intrigued when my friend told me that it cannot be ripped/copied. What I found out:

First of all: Visible gaps could be seen on the CD! (probably gaps between tracks)

The album had sticker saying "NOT COMPATIBLE WITH PCs" and this seems to be true. The CD is not recognized as audio CD at all and cannot be played in PC.

Then I tried analyzing/grabbing the CD data using various applications such as CloneCD, CDRWin, Blind Read, NTI CD-Maker etc with various settings. All of this without any success. Not only did I get various contradictory and theoretically impossible error messages but several of the programs crashed spectacularly and/or produced scary noises through the CDROM drive! The best success I achieved was displaying some sort of Table of Contents which contained very strange numbers (negative data lengths, 99 sessions on the disk etc...)

Then I tried all of this with 3 different drives (AOpen CDRW, AOpen DVD ROM and Creative DVD ROM) and the results varied wildly. The best success I has was capturing 650 MB file which contained 2 seconds of the first track and then zeroes.

I tried playing the CD in two different CD players (Aiwa and Sony) and it worked without any problems. Track numbers and lenghts were ok, everything looked fine.

So, it seems that these CDs really cannot be ripped/copied using standard CD ROMs. Of course:
1) You can send the music from the CD player with digital output to PC soundcard with digital input and create perfect "deprotected" CD.
2) If this copyprotection gains any notoriety, CD drive makers will immediately update their firmware to allow "dumbing down" the drive and "really RAW" grabbing of the audio data.

Re:solution has been found (1)

ConsumedByTV (243497) | more than 13 years ago | (#334781)

I am going to pay a bum at my local mall to steal me a copy of this cd. Thats good for the economy!


Fight censors!

Fair use? (2)

SpinyNorman (33776) | more than 13 years ago | (#334782)

Copyright protected cd's do not allow you to replicate them in a cd burner nor do they allow you to rip the audio tracks "digitally" (although can still be done through analog)."

Taco editorialized:
Actually the article is well written, covering all the bases, although it neglects to say how we're all expected to bend over while our fair use of stuff we paid for is taken away from us.

So now "fair use" for any piece of music you buy is meant to be defined by you're being able to make digital copies of it? I guess the RIAA is really fucking us with those analog LP's then, with their insidious built-in bumpy groove technology.

Fair use of a music CD is to be able to play the thing whereever you like, and generally do whatever you like with it (such as making a copy for the car) as long as it's for your own use and not giving copies away to others who hav't paid for it.

However, Fair use DOES not by any stretch of the imagination mean you should be guaranteed to be able to copy directly to CD rather than tape, or that you should be facilitated in copying it to MiniOggCD-2010 or whatever alternate formats may emerge. That is ridiculous.

Makes the whole decision easier (3)

Tannin Kal (17633) | more than 13 years ago | (#334783)

I'm just glad they finally made my mind for me. I used to hear songs on the radio, grab mp3's of the ones I liked, and grab the album's of the one's I liked the most. However, my only cd players are my computers at home and my laptop at work. Now I have no choice but to do all my music listening in mp3 format. Thanks guys, saves me a bunch of money!

-Tannin Kal

Re:So how does the player play it? (1)

netsharc (195805) | more than 13 years ago | (#334784)

I wonder when will [some Taiwanese/Korean/not afraid of the RIAA hardware company] release their Burn-Proof-Proof CD-ROM Drive.

Re:Cactus (1)

prgammans (134908) | more than 13 years ago | (#334785)

In Europe that doesn't matter you can return it, and say it isn't fit for the purpose you bought it for. They have to refund you money, and you don't need to say what your purpose was.

As the cd didn't i assume have any marking to say it used this copy protection, and that this would prevent it working like normal CD's you have a better legal position too.

Re:Question: (2)

Mawbid (3993) | more than 13 years ago | (#334786)

Blech! While I didn't think of it at the time, obviously these could have been written simply to put the data in separate files and add a wav header.

What I was getting at is that they weren't. See "I can play audio CDs perfectly; why is reading the CD into a file so difficult and prone to errors? It's just the same thing." in the cdparanoia faq [xiph.org] .
--

Boycott (1)

Splatta (7993) | more than 13 years ago | (#334787)

Trying to break it is all well and good, but what if you cant? What if this is done is such a way as to make it impossible for you to break? I think one of the most effective ways to deal with this would be to boycott whichever albums use it. If they think mp3s will hurt thier sales, show them that taking away this ability will hurt thier sales even more.

Re:Question: (1)

prgammans (134908) | more than 13 years ago | (#334788)

In that case could you send the output from dd to an app to read the brocken TOC in the same way a normal CD Player does, then use dd again to just cut out the tracks as required?

Easy To Break! (3)

omarius (52253) | more than 13 years ago | (#334789)

How simple is it to break? Record it in analog, people, and re-mp3 it! Maybe Superman and your dog will be able to tell the difference, but I'll bet you won't, once you set whatever software you're using to the right levels. Geez. I have no fear whatsoever of this crap. Copy protection was a pain in the ass for Apple ][ games, but then, you couldn't play them out of a speaker.

-Omar

So.. (2)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 13 years ago | (#334790)

You've done this? An entire audio cd? with dd?

Because for some reason, I don't think you can do that. You can't simply read a whole CD block-by-block. You can use DD to grab a single track perhaps..... but the whole thing?

dumb question (1)

sckeener (137243) | more than 13 years ago | (#334791)

Skipping the hacking arguement currently being discussed on /.

If I remember correctly, with Fair Use, I'm allowed to make backups....

So how is Charley Pride going to let me do my Supreme Court ok'ed right to have backups....are they going to cut the price in half or give me two copies for the price of one?

Just curious...

Re:Weird... (1)

ASCIIMan (47627) | more than 13 years ago | (#334792)

Which would be the One True OS(tm)? Both apps you listed run on Windows and MacOS (and possibly in WINE emulation).

Re:easy for you to say (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#334793)

Dad's Army. [beeb.com]

Re:Fair use? (1)

Lysander Luddite (64349) | more than 13 years ago | (#334794)

"However, Fair use DOES not by any stretch of the imagination mean you should be guaranteed to be able to copy directly to CD rather than tape, or that you should be facilitated in copying it to MiniOggCD-2010 or whatever alternate formats may emerge. That is ridiculous."

So what's the difference? The quality of the copy? You can't allow CD to tape and then in the same breath say CD to CD is somehow not Fair Use.

Re:The Bottom Line (2)

mikethegeek (257172) | more than 13 years ago | (#334795)

"* The only way the general public can protect their rights is to shun any of these new technologies. Unless they provide some compelling reason and benefit the to general public, they should not be successful, especailly if there are competing standards. The installed legacy base is huge and inertia is a very hard thing to overcome.
"

With respect to audio technology, IS there a new technology that would be compelling enough to make everyone switch?

IMO, that will be hard. CD's already have the best possible sound quality, which is mainly why they replaced casettes. Other than making CD's smaller and higher capacity (which is NOT an actual improvement of the audio) there doesn't seem to be any way to make the kind of leap as from casette to CD, or VHS to DVD.

The only compelling new audio technology is MP3, and MP3 players (smaller, more convienient, and higher capacity, as in my argument above). Which the recording industry is trying their hardest to suppress.

They're in England already... (2)

RossyB (28685) | more than 13 years ago | (#334796)

A mate in the office yesterday bought a CD which looked kinda weird... on the back there were what looked like concentric gaps. It skipped like mad in our PCs, so he took it back. The replacement CD also didn't place in a PC, but played perfectly well in a cheap hifi.

This is _so_ wrong it's unbelievable...

DVD's are hard to copy? (2)

_underSCORE (128392) | more than 13 years ago | (#334797)

from the article:
"If CDs were as hard to copy as DVDs or VHS tapes or even books, we would not be going through anything like what we're going through now with Napster or Gnutella."
Yeah, it took a teenager a whole week to figure out how to copy a DVD. (I realize that it's quite hard to burn a DVD now, but 5 years ago CDs were equally hard to burn)
I would imagine that it would only take slightly longer to break this method.

What really needs to be done here is to give consumers access to digital music for a fair price. I don't see RIAA or any record company even trying to do that. If MP3s were 50 cents per copy, I think record companies would make a mint. I certainly would buy a ton of them.

-_underSCORE

"The programmable machine" (4)

dpilot (134227) | more than 13 years ago | (#334798)

Now you've hit the nail on the head. Obviously, "The Programmable Machine" must die. The first step is to key the BIOS and OS together, so it only boots the One True OS, Windows. Then come up with copy-protected and access-controlled media. Then how about Windows-only peripherals, network connections, etc. Once you've taken The Programmable Machine and made it fully Windows-bound, you've got a set of deep pockets available to sue, and Microsoft will make sure that machine won't be usable for illegal copying.

The Programmable Machine can be dead and gone within our lifetime.

I love that one episode... (1)

cherrycoke (146050) | more than 13 years ago | (#334799)

...where Springfield institutes Prohibition, and Homer becomes a bootlegger, making alcohol in his basement and smuggling it in bowling balls. At the end, Mayor Quimby repeals prohibition, and asks Homer how long it will take him to flood the town with alcohol.

"I'm not in that business anymore," Homer says.

Fat Tony, the gangster character, leans into the frame and whispers, "Four minutes."

Which is about how long Charlie Pride will have to wait before pristine digital copies of his tracks are available throughout the Gnutella network.

Re:So I cannot make copies for my own use? (1)

sceptre1067 (197404) | more than 13 years ago | (#334800)

I would think an exact 'bit' copy would get around the copy issue (though maby not the playback issues...)

This is giving me flashbacks to the mid '80's when software manufacturers would do almost anything to prevent copying. Onc poplular technique was to create 'errors' on a floppy by physically damaging the disk in specific areas. Then a program would run an search for those errors. Didn't take too long for somebody to create a TSR to track and feed the errors to the program.

I'm hoping that in some ways this will blow over as the Music industry realizes the cost of trying to keep up with those willing to break the protection schemes.
Sure one can sue the 'hacker' but then one still has to invest in R&D to come up with another system to protect the property. In time this will get expensive and we'll see simpler systems (e.g. simialr to cd keys or something...) in place.

just another $.02

they must not have copies of clonecd or cdrwin.. (1)

rigor6969 (240549) | more than 13 years ago | (#334801)

(nm)

Nice to get the mention for /. (2)

Misch (158807) | more than 13 years ago | (#334802)

It was nice for them to mention /. in the article, but it would have been nicer if they had linked to /., or at least said something along the lines of what /. is.

Re:Weird... (1)

CSC (31551) | more than 13 years ago | (#334803)

Well for me it looks like the original article created a redirect loop, each time adding some parameters to the two bouncing CGIs.

Netscape 4.76 on NetbSD with junkbuster returning a dummy cookie and pretending to be Mozilla 3/MacOS. Funny. I think I'll let it run for a while so it swamps their taxpayer^Wuser database with faulty cookies :-)

Typical Hype (1)

yoshi_mon (172895) | more than 13 years ago | (#334804)

"But if piracy continues to spiral out of control, [copy-protecting CDs] will become more and more attractive an option -- even if it has some negative impact on some listeners." (This comes from the Salon artical.)

I love it when recording execs get on their high horse about piracy. While Joe User still is paying 10-15 bucks a CD but can't play it in their Wall-Mart CD player well that is just too bad. But perish the thought of any of the suits not getting that extra million-dollar bonus each year.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that artists should be compensated for their work, however until they can prove to me beyond a doubt that they going broke because of MP3's they can look forward to users like me cracking each and every protection scheme they can think up.

Copy protection?? (1)

chenry007 (211197) | more than 13 years ago | (#334805)

Actually we let them get away with it. Soon it will be copy proof CDs when that catches on what will they come out with next copy proof DVDs? oh wait maybe they will try to outlaw the use of VCRs and CD burners all together... oh yeah and dont forgot about those so call copy protected hard drives that they are also working on....

Hardware workaround? (1)

n8ur (230546) | more than 13 years ago | (#334806)

If the idea is to make CDs that will only play in a CDDA player, wouldn't it be easy to hack the hardware to pick up the digital stream before it goes into the D/A converter and output it to a digital interface into the computer? You'd lose the speed advantage of 52x CD-ROMs, but you should still be able to grab the bitstream.

dmca implications? boycot copyprotected cd's (1)

mark_lybarger (199098) | more than 13 years ago | (#334807)

excellent article from MSNBC! go figure. anyway, the data isn't encrypted, but to make a direct copy on a cd-rom would involve bypassing a copy protection put on by the "copyright holder". to my lame understanding, this would kinda violate the dmca as it's currently written. this is just another bold example to get the DMCA re-written or just plain thrown out.

i really agree with the poster that says we should refuse to buy any CD's that involve these copy protections. if you have a toddler in the house, you know the lifetime of an average CD (i won't even get started on VHS tapes) isn't 4ever, hardly close. backups are necessary if you want to have it longer than a few months. the article does point out that we still would be able to make a tape backup, but who wants an analogue copy of a digital media they bought? i thought analogue tape was a depreciated interface anyway. 0.02$

Re:Burning vs Ripping (1)

flatrock (79357) | more than 13 years ago | (#334808)

Just about every operating system in the world including Windows has a way to read and write raw data to a disk. If CD-RWs accept simpe block read and write commands, then your should be able to ignore CDFS and whatever junk they use for copy protection.
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