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207 comments

First edition (2)

mimicoctopus (2701643) | about 2 years ago | (#40903075)

Now an ebook.

Re:First edition (1)

wild_quinine (998562) | about 2 years ago | (#40903107)

Now an ebook.

What this means is that, whilst old 'first edition' books will still be collected, they may now be seen as an artefact of a past way of living, much like chamberpots or bedwarmers.

Re:First edition (1, Interesting)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | about 2 years ago | (#40903449)

Now an ebook.

What this means is that, whilst old 'first edition' books will still be collected, they may now be seen as an artefact of a past way of living, much like chamberpots or bedwarmers.

Not so sure about that, publishing only ebooks will lead to massive piracy. This may not be an issue for the big names in publishing but it will be the end of many small specialist publishers if they go all digital. These small publishers may actually be better off staying analog since printed books are a pretty good anti piracy defense plus those customers that are really interested in this specialist literature will still buy the paper books. It takes way more time to scan and OCR process a book than it takes to rip a DVD and share it on bittorrent.

Re:First edition (3, Insightful)

BlackCreek (1004083) | about 2 years ago | (#40903689)

> This may not be an issue for the big names in publishing but it will be the end of many small specialist publishers if they go all digital. These small publishers may actually be better off staying analog since printed books are a pretty good anti piracy defense plus those customers that are really interested in this specialist literature will still buy the paper books.

I read many things that go under 'specialist literature'. Trouble is, there is so much (good) stuff to read that I one of the ways I select what to read is "is it available as an e-book?". If a writer/publisher can't be bothered to sell their content in the way I want to consume it, I'll just shop elsewhere.

Really, books don't make a profit by selling only to those who absolutely ****must**** get it (perhaps with honorable exceptions).

Re:First edition (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903927)

> This may not be an issue for the big names in publishing but it will be the end of many small specialist publishers if they go all digital. These small publishers may actually be better off staying analog since printed books are a pretty good anti piracy defense plus those customers that are really interested in this specialist literature will still buy the paper books.

I read many things that go under 'specialist literature'. Trouble is, there is so much (good) stuff to read that I one of the ways I select what to read is "is it available as an e-book?". If a writer/publisher can't be bothered to sell their content in the way I want to consume it, I'll just shop elsewhere.

Really, books don't make a profit by selling only to those who absolutely ****must**** get it (perhaps with honorable exceptions).

In other words: "If people can't be bothered to publish their stuff in a format that I can pirate I don't read their books."sound like you aren't much of a loss as a customer. All it takes to ruin a small indie publisher is one guy like you cracking their kindle books and putting their entire line on bittorrent. Where is the motivation to go digital?

Re:First edition (3, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 2 years ago | (#40903855)

Yeah, but you only have to scan it once. Then release it on the internet. Maybe it won't end well for small time publishers, but the authors they publish could see a boost in the popularity of their work. I've read way more books on my eReader in the past year, than I read in the previous 5 years before I owned it. And every book I've read on my eReader was not pirated (many were free however). As Cory Doctorow says, the problems for most authors isn't piracy, it's obscurity. Getting people to read your work is the hardest part. Once the author has you reading his books, it's that much easier to get you to pay for one.

kindle...? (3, Interesting)

macshit (157376) | about 2 years ago | (#40903095)

So does the kindle support ePub yet ...?

(or non-latin scripts?)

Re:kindle...? (4, Informative)

Altanar (56809) | about 2 years ago | (#40903129)

File formats supported: "Kindle (AZW), Kindle Format 8 (AZW3), TXT, PDF, Audible (Audible Enhanced(AA,AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC natively; HTML, DOC, DOCX, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP through conversion." Kindle has supported non-latin scripts since the Kindle 3 model that came out in 2010.

"Through conversion" is not supporting it (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#40903635)

Otherwise you could claim any device supports any format so long as you convert it first!

Re:kindle...? (2)

WolphFang (1077109) | about 2 years ago | (#40903139)

The newer KF8 format supports embedded TTF fonts. (Don't know if it supports RTL though) Here is one I created in Cherokee (definately *not* latin): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YJRQGC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006YJRQGC&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwcherokeele-20 [amazon.com]

Re:kindle...? (5, Informative)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903159)

I actually don't know how most people put media on their kindles, but I use calibre. http://calibre-ebook.com/ [calibre-ebook.com]

It converts from epub to mobi without any issues as far as I've seen. The main achilles heel is pdf's as far as I'm concerned... sure, the kindle gladly displays them, but you can't change font size or anything but have to rather zoom in on parts of static pages, which is very annoying. Of course this isn't a problem with kindles, but rather typical of the PDF format.

Re:kindle...? (1)

ciderbrew (1860166) | about 2 years ago | (#40903237)

Can you extract text from a pdf and keep basic layout formatting?

Re:kindle...? (3, Informative)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903263)

In my experience PDFs convert badly, partly because many times they are badly made - the text might be encoded as images rather than text, or there might be security added so that you can't select text or such. Of course this depends on where you get your PDFs from, but as a generalization of the pdfs in the ebook scene it seems to hold accurate.

But like I said, this is a problem with PDFs, not with the kindle.

Re:kindle...? (1)

ciderbrew (1860166) | about 2 years ago | (#40903341)

Just had a play with google docs ORC from pdf/image tool. The typeset text came out, the hand written text (which is illegible for the most part) didn't and I didn't expect it to. I do hate pdfs for learning to code ebooks. I procrastinate lots, so I could easily re-typeset a whole book before I actually read it :)

Re:kindle...? (1)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903415)

I've been known to do the same at times, although I try not to... But say I've downloaded a series of books and one book in the middle has major formatting errors - well gee, there's half a day well spent.

Re:kindle...? (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40903363)

I also experience this and it's because most PDF's are horribly designed by people that need to be beaten with the Acrobat manual. I have a PDF that you can not read in any reader but the actual adobe PDF reader. it's because the idiot that made it put a fancy background on every page and got the Z order wrong. Adobe forces text to the front all the times, other readers will do as they are told.

Step 1 is to find the people that made the PDF and beat them bloody with the Spec Manual for the PDF format.

Re:kindle...? (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 2 years ago | (#40903481)

I also experience this and it's because most PDF's are horribly designed by people that need to be beaten with the Acrobat manual.

That's funny. According to a few PDF processing tools that I have, people who wrote Acrobat need in turn to be beaten with the PDF specification document.

Re:kindle...? (1)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | about 2 years ago | (#40903537)

I also experience this and it's because most PDF's are horribly designed by people that need to be beaten with the Acrobat manual.

According to a few PDF processing tools that I have, people who wrote Acrobat need in turn to be beaten with the PDF specification document.

You're both right, except they should beat each other with Louisville Sluggers instead of mere sheets of paper.

Re:kindle...? (1)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903485)

In most cases that I've had issues with I believe it's not so much bad people but bad software. Users converting to PDF using various software just because PDF is as close to a "universal" format as you can come... supposedly. Hopefully this boom in ebook readers means other formats will take over that role.

Re:kindle...? (2)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 2 years ago | (#40903791)

Step 1 is to find the people that made the PDF and beat them bloody with the Spec Manual for the PDF format.

But isn't the spec manual a PDF?

Re:kindle...? (2)

asifyoucare (302582) | about 2 years ago | (#40903821)

I bought a Nook, with the aim of reading Cisco technical manuals on it. But it is horrible to use with PDFs, as I gather are other brands too.

Because it is a 7" device and the PDF pages have large margins, I normally want to enlarge the pages. BUT, I cannot turn a page without going back to normal size first. Then I need to enlarge the next page ..... It is pretty much unusable for PDFs. I've been considering getting a 10" Android for this purpose.

Re:kindle...? (1)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903869)

A tablet might work better, but then I bought an e-ink device specifically for the battery life, which no tablet comes even close to matching. I could definitely see the use of a good pdf-reading tablet for technical manuals however... or for say roleplaying rulebooks. I'd still prefer it if people just started using simpler formats for things that are mostly text-based and doesn't require so much fancy formatting. A stunning amount of things I've found in PDF format only could have been just as well formatted in RTF. Not that this is a great option, but at least better than pdf with regards to being convertable.

Re:kindle...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903897)

PDF is a godawful format if you want to do any kind of text reflow (which you need to in order to make it readable on a device the size of a Kindle/Nook). The spec just wasn't designed for that purpose. In fact it was more or less designed for the opposite purpose, of making sure the page layout would be identical everywhere.

Re:kindle...? (1)

Sique (173459) | about 2 years ago | (#40903257)

The main issue I have with ePub->MOBI conversion so far is that sometimes the page breaks stay as they were in ePub, which makes reading them awkward in Kindle - you often have an ePub-page converted to one and a half page in MOBI.
I am thinking about an perl script to fix that, but for now, I was too lazy.

Re:kindle...? (1)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903271)

Hmm, I've never encountered that problem that I can recall, not from epub. Perhaps I've just been lucky, perhaps I've fiddled around with the settings at some point.

Re:kindle...? (3, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40903343)

There are only two devices that are useful for reading pdf's.

Kindle DX, and iPad. you really need the big screen.

Re:kindle...? (1)

Havenwar (867124) | about 2 years ago | (#40903401)

Yeah exactly. I actually read quite a lot of them on my second screen while I'm compiling... It bugs me that pdf is such a popular format for things that doesn't benefit from it - like anything that is mostly just text.

Re:kindle...? (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 2 years ago | (#40903419)

Kindle DX, and iPad. you really need the big screen.

More importantly you need a responsive screen. PDFs more than other formats require pinch to zoom, pan etc. to work reasonably because they often don't fit in a screen well or contain detail that necessitates zooming in to see.

Re:kindle...? (2)

NoKaOi (1415755) | about 2 years ago | (#40903243)

So does the kindle support ePub yet ...?

No, it doesn't support ePub, but Amazon does have a free program (search for "kindlegen") that will convert epub to mobi. There's even have a Linux version. Obviously not as good as actually supporting it on the Kindle, but works.

That's not because eBooks are taking off... (-1, Flamebait)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903097)

This is not because eBooks are taking off. It's because they are great for consuming inane trash like Fifty Shades which have no literary value or retention reason.

The majority of the people in the UK are illiterate and the rest of us would rather buy second hand books than fish out for the cash for a new copy.

I bet they conveniently ignore the second hand market on Amazon as well.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

Altanar (56809) | about 2 years ago | (#40903115)

Yes, they "conveniently" ignore a market that has not traceable sales.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903133)

The majority of the people in the UK are illiterate

[Citation needed]

Seriously that's quite a claim and needs a bit of backing up. UK folk aren't all dribbling TV-addicts whose idea of literature is The Sun "newspaper".

For my own part, I'm a reader with a voracious appetite for new material. My shelves are always overflowing with books, to the point where it is unmanageable - therefore I have decided to buy a tablet PC, put the Kindle app on it, and buy my books in that way. I can have thousands of books stored on the device if needs be. I'll keep some of my more cherished paper copies, but the vast bulk will be going to the local charity shops.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (4, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#40903163)

Seriously that's quite a claim and needs a bit of backing up. UK folk aren't all dribbling TV-addicts whose idea of literature is The Sun "newspaper".

Given the circulation figures of The Sun, I think you're not doing a great job of disproving the grandparent's assertion.

For my own part, I'm a reader with a voracious appetite for new material.

If you put down your book for a minute and go and wander around for a bit then you might discover that you are not part of the majority.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903183)

Thank you - you nailed my point.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

isorox (205688) | about 2 years ago | (#40903515)

Seriously that's quite a claim and needs a bit of backing up. UK folk aren't all dribbling TV-addicts whose idea of literature is The Sun "newspaper".

Given the circulation figures of The Sun, I think you're not doing a great job of disproving the grandparent's assertion.

The majority of people don't read the sun. In fact, in the UK, the combined circulation for papers thick people read (Sun, Mail, Star) is under 10% of the country. Mail readers are thick, but they'll probably disagree, and probably read books in any case.

However, the UK does have a large TV viewership. Probably due to the fact we have relatively decent TV compared with the U.S. 75%-80% of us watch TV at some point during the week, and spend about 25-30 hours a week watching (it's higher at the moment due to the olympics, and seasonable)

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903645)

Seriously that's quite a claim and needs a bit of backing up. UK folk aren't all dribbling TV-addicts whose idea of literature is The Sun "newspaper".

Given the circulation figures of The Sun, I think you're not doing a great job of disproving the grandparent's assertion.

Math: Population of Britain is 62.6 million. Circulation of The Sun is 2.6 million, total readership claimed to be 7.6 million. Less than 4% of UK folk are bying The Sun, 12% are reading it. 12%100% ("everybody"). I don't see your point vs OPs claim.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#40903803)

Faulty logic. You're comparing their readership to the entire population (including babies). Instead try comparing it to other newspapers [wikipedia.org] . The Sun's circulation is around 50% greater than its nearest rival, and the only papers with a circulation over 1 million are The Sun, The Mail and The Mirror.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (-1, Troll)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903177)

Check the OFSTED pass rates for GCSE level English. Across the nation, in the majority of areas, less than 30% of students are passing with an A-C grade

The majority are unfortunately, primarily the result of the last two major generations. It's a fine example of where socialism breeds it's own suicide by providing for everyone regardless of the effort they make. The uneducated masses are breeding less educated people. It's like H.G.Well's vision of the future where the human race divides into two distinct species.

I am a "prolific" reader as well, but I don't think having thousands of texts at hand is necessary, especially when they are DRM encumbered. I read a book and give it to someone, then they read it and give it to someone. This cycle continues. Usually I get given a book and either read it or pass it on.

I'm currently reading Catch-22 by Joseph Heller and the TI-86 calculator manual.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

MrDoh! (71235) | about 2 years ago | (#40903253)

How's the grading curve work these days though, surely only 30% SHOULD be getting A-C's?

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903287)

You're confusing statistical ranking (the government's policy) with fair grading.

Everyone should be getting a fair education and A-C grades.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#40903693)

"You're confusing statistical ranking (the government's policy) with fair grading.

Everyone should be getting a fair education and A-C grades."

Giving everyone a good grade regardless of whether they deserve it is what has led to the mess we have now where the grades are increasingly becoming meaningless and employers and top universities are ignoring them. If you want to go that be nice to everyone and make them feel good about themselves by giving them all good grades liberal lefty route then fine , but don't expect the real world to take them seriously.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (2)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 2 years ago | (#40903325)

More than 50% should be getting C or above, as the GCSE grades go from A*, A, B, C, D, E and Fail - C and above is slightly more than half on the range.

I got a C at GCSE English, despite the fact that I read five or more books a week, wrote novella length stories, had excellent typing skills, perfect writing technique and had read all of Shakespeare (out of choice) by the time I was 13. Why didn't I excell at English? Because it had fuck all to do with "English" and a heck of a lot of more to do with "English Lit".

Unless the curriculum has changed a *lot*, it's all about reading "Of Mice and Men" (a book that I read in a couple hours, several times over) and then spending 6 fucking months dissecting it to find ridiculous hidden meanings and literary bollocks. I used to get into serious trouble during English because the class had to read it "together" a chapter at a time - which bored the fuck it of me because I could finish the chapter in a tenth of the time of everyone else and picked up the book I was reading for enjoyment. At the end of the day, Of Mice and Men is a shallow story that I wouldn't ever read out of personal choice.

GCSE grades don't show everything.

What am I reading today? "The Age We Live In - A History Of The 19th Century, in 7 Divisions", published in 1883 covering the period of 1813 to 1883. Fantastic social and political insight into the period by the people that lived there. C at English? Sod that.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#40903391)

Here in the USA you would have received an A++

Yes our grading system is that badly skewed, we don't want to make the morons feel bad so we give everyone A's and B's... I had classmates in CS classes that should have been ejected. They were in CS 112 and still did not know CS 102 concepts, the prof had to stop and teach remedial computing over and over.

and the funny part, in reality when you leave school, your GPA means nothing to anyone that matters. Your boss will not care if you got A's, all they care about is that you have that degree they can check off a list.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

C0R1D4N (970153) | about 2 years ago | (#40903483)

For us Of Mice and Men was summer reading and amounted to a single test at the beginning of the yeat. Our English classes were roughly 25% literature and 75% research papers. I was an A/B student when I bothered to do the work but damn when I got into college knowing how to write a good persuasive essay and cite sources gave me a huge advantage. Our school district had an awful history program (good luck finding a US public school that doesn't), but I am quite happy with our English program.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

1s44c (552956) | about 2 years ago | (#40903501)

Unless the curriculum has changed a *lot*, it's all about reading "Of Mice and Men" (a book that I read in a couple hours, several times over) and then spending 6 fucking months dissecting it to find ridiculous hidden meanings and literary bollocks.

Wow. That's exactly my experience with the same book. I guess we both went to a UK school when they were trying to knock out carbon copy thatcherites.

I remember being the only one in a math class who was willing to point out that if you had to round to a whole number 4.46 is closer to 4 than 5. Apparently the rule was to round off one digit at a time and always round 5 upwards. Not one of 29 or so other children was willing to agree with me because the teacher must be right even when he is clearly wrong.

I had a chemistry teacher who could barely speak English. We had to sit and pretend to listen even though we didn't understand a word. When I complained to my year head he just took the piss out of me. Clearly it was my fault this teacher could not speak English.

The UK education system.. The higher level were good but the lower mandatory levels were one crock of shit.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (5, Interesting)

Sique (173459) | about 2 years ago | (#40903273)

It's a fine example of where socialism breeds it's own suicide by providing for everyone regardless of the effort they make.

Why is that socialism? The U.S., which cannot be accused of being too socialist, has the same problem, while the pretty socialist Finland does not. Don't blame every social failure on Socialism, it's just a cheap excuse not to do anything about it!

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903293)

Are you stupid?

The current problems with education are the result of a National "one size fits all" Curriculum, a Tory measure, plus the privatisation of exam boards so there is a standards race to the bottom to maximise the number of students taking your papers. Also a Tory measure.

People whine about measures of 40+ years ago like the combining of comprehensives and grammar schools, forgetting that deciding people's future at the age of 11 was an absurd idea, and that all good schools put people into sets by subject according to ability (though, again, the NC and its offspring make this much more difficult than it should be).

And I say this as someone who went to a top fee-paying private school, having won a continuation and regular scholarship before my 13th birthday.

Of course, we could go back to pre-"socialism" literacy levels, back in the day when only the sons of rich parents or the wards of generous sponsors even had a full education... indeed, it probably wouldn't matter for people like me, as I naturally shine. But it would matter for people like you, because you don't seem very smart. Now shine my shoes.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0, Troll)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903347)

No you've got the wrong end of the stick. I myself went through the crappiest ranked school in Hertfordshire in the 1980s and 1990s and am currently dragging my three children through one of the crappiest schools in London. I did VERY well and achieved A/B passes in everything at GCSE and A level. My children are doing well.

There is literally NOTHING AT ALL wrong with the curriculum then or now. It's broad, but extremely relevant to life in the UK and always was.

There are two problems: apathy and ranking.

The first problem - socialism has bred people who don't care and expect a lot for nothing. Most of these individuals just do not have a place in society as they have precisely no skills worth using. This is not due to education but apathy towards it. They don't give a shit about it either as they always have the state to fall back on. I experience these people daily and have done for 20 years. Having 8 children is their career path these days where they get given a £450k house to put them in.

The ranking system. People are ranked in order statistically and prevented from progressing up the ranks. You have to be the best or you don't have a chance.

It's fucked up. People need to get some realisation that if they don't or can't help themselves (bar any exceptional circumstances such as disabilities), that they should probably die hungry like the do in a lot of countries. The opportunities are ALWAYS there - they just choose the safety net every time.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903437)

I myself went through the crappiest ranked school in Hertfordshire in the 1980s and 1990s and am currently dragging my three children through one of the crappiest schools in London.

So, having had this bad experience, you decided to give your children exactly the same experience. What is wrong with you? Before giving birth, did you think about any of 1) how your location would affect which schools are available to you; 2) saving up for private school; 3) private tuition; 4) opportunity for private scholarships?

There is literally NOTHING AT ALL wrong with the curriculum then or now.

Yes there is. Perhaps, because you went to a shit school then sent your kids to a shit school, you don't know what it's like to enjoy the freedom of a private school which can ignore what the government tells it to teach. It's wonderful.

The first problem - socialism has bred people who don't care and expect a lot for nothing.

Bullshit. Socialism is tougher for the smart than capitalism - you have to work not only for yourself but for your whole country. You may be making some Marxist argument about the scourge of the lumpenproletariat, but the belief in the existence of a useless underclass has thankfully been eliminated since it was taken to its logical conclusion in mid-C20. (Now the people who actually had to live through that are dying off, I guess it's making a fringe resurgence. Bollocks.)

The ranking system. People are ranked in order statistically and prevented from progressing up the ranks. You have to be the best or you don't have a chance.

This is true. It is what happens when you put management consultants and private "metrics" testing providers into the simple process of determining whether someone is good enough for a job / should be given an education. The left have been continually opposed to that sort of testing because it reinforces the class divide.

People need to get some realisation that if they don't or can't help themselves (bar any exceptional circumstances such as disabilities), that they should probably die hungry like the do in a lot of countries.

Like when you decided that your education was awful, but ended up setting up the same bad education for your children. But I guess if they follow your example of "A/B passes" from a shitty school then they'll be OK. So, when we follow your philosophy, your own kids won't end up having to "die hungry".

Any time someone says something fascist like "the inferior [by some always stupid definition] should die", they don't seem to realise that the downtrodden won't just say "hurr ok i'll die then". Even if you throw aside all the philosophical and humanitarian arguments, there's the simple fact that people don't want to die - if you ask them to, you will have civil unrest on your hands. And you know who are the first to lose out? Not these guys, because they already had nothing to lose. Not the people at the top, because they're always protected. But people like you - the Alf Garnetts, the useless idiots.

So, for your children's sake if not yours, please think about what you're saying.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#40903489)

Your intellectual superiority and private school background obviously doesn't stretch to literacy as you miss the clearly defined point.

I said the school was ranked badly. The education and teaching was excellent. The other students were not, as they came from the background described.

Three of my cousins go to an expensive private school in Cobham and believe me, they are not getting their money's worth both on their results and general intelligence. It's a false dichotomy to state that private education is superior.

Saying people should be responsible for themselves and outlining the consequences is not fascism (or social darwinism which is what I assume you are referring to). It's a popular viewpoint but again, another false dichotomy. Alf Garnett was a parody of the people I included in the comment, most of which who are right-wing types or more generally, the hate rag readers.

Now please go and remove your head from your anus.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903607)

I said the school was ranked badly. The education and teaching was excellent. The other students were not, as they came from the background described.

You said: "currently dragging my three children through one of the crappiest schools in London". Can only work with what I'm given, chief. And like I said, if you have such negative feelings towards all the kids around you, why did you give birth in that area? Sounds like an awful start in life to give your kids. Of course, you may be wrong, and they may not be as prejudiced as you... so it may all be windmills.

If the ranking per se is not an issue because the teaching is nevertheless excellent, what exactly is your argument? The only thing I can guess is something like "people who don't manage an A-C grade clearly don't deserve an education". Congratulations! that is exactly how governments have argued since 1979. The path of least resistance? Give more people an A-C grade by lowering standards.

The point in education is that you give everyone a chance, but that includes the chance to fail. And that's exactly what used to happen before sophomoric reasoning like yours came along. If everyone is getting top grades, something is wrong.

Three of my cousins go to an expensive private school in Cobham and believe me, they are not getting their money's worth both on their results and general intelligence. It's a false dichotomy to state that private education is superior.

No argument that some private schools are overall shit. But my position was that private schools have the opportunity to ignore lots of government education guidelines, and that this experience is wonderful. Just as it was for all kids pre-National Curriculum: the teachers were in charge, not the ministers.

Saying people should be responsible for themselves and outlining the consequences is not fascism (or social darwinism which is what I assume you are referring to).

Saying that the weak should accept their lot, even if that is death - as you argued ("can't help themselves") - is the essence of fascism. Having a degree of personal responsibility is another thing entirely. If you want people to work hard, you take the socialist (or at least Keynesian) approach of ensuring that secure, worthwhile jobs are available for hard workers. You downplay the Thatcherite service-based economy, i.e. riches for scrounging, useless middlemen.

Alf Garnett was a parody of the people I included in the comment, most of which who are right-wing types or more generally, the hate rag readers.

Alf Garnett was a parody of people like you. Mitchell has several times pointed out in public and private (he comes to a few local events) how it's the prejudiced like yourself, with all their views on people of a particular "background" or with a particular worthiness in society, who were the target of ridicule - yet those very same people assume that Garnett is a character devised to promote their opinions.

You may not think that you're a "hate rag reader" - it takes balls to admit hatred - but your views align perfectly with any Daily Mail article.

I think you have the ability to reason but you're disabled by a horrible chip on your shoulder. I don't have time to continue this discussion but I urge you to reconsider your understanding.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

unapersson (38207) | about 2 years ago | (#40903543)

People sitting on their backsides doing nothing has little to do with socialism. Socialism is about workers not welfare, welfare is meant to be a safety net to stop people sinking into abject poverty. I'd say the situation we've got is down to two things: the lack of low paid manufacturing jobs which has it's beginnings in Thatcher, and that aspirational culture that says I can be wildly successful without doing any work, which again has its roots in Thatcher but became far worse once the reality TV celebrity turned up. Once those people are your aspirational role models then you can wave goodbye to people putting any effort in while not wanting to do work which is beneath them because immigrants do it.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903329)

"I am a "prolific" reader as well, but I don't think having thousands of texts at hand is necessary, especially when they are DRM encumbered. I read a book and give it to someone, then they read it and give it to someone. This cycle continues. Usually I get given a book and either read it or pass it on."

I do that too. I have 40,000 books in my Calibre library, DRM removed if applicable and I share them with thousands of leechers.

I consider it a service to the literacy of the planet.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903371)

It's a fine example of where socialism breeds it's own suicide

I read a book and give it to someone, then they read it and give it to someone. This cycle continues. Usually I get given a book and either read it or pass it on.

But sharing is communism! ;-)

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903507)

Just like to say; Socialism actually is the cure for this problem.

(problem: Dumb people breed more dumb people).

You see; if you live in an african nation where life expectancy is zero and you are uneducated.
You have as many babies as possible.

When you are educated (with that socialist tool called education thing you seem to hate) and given health care (with that government minimum level of care you no doubt despise) then you no longer suddenly need to have as many babies as possible.

The problem with poor communities breeding more dumb poor people? not enough socialism. They haven't been provided with enough care, they are too poor. They look out their car window and see the douche bags in ferraris, and go: "I'll never be that rich, so I just throw a brick through his window and steal his CDs - then go have more babies".

Tax the rich; give to the poor. Win-Win-Win. You get poor people that arent dumb, whoh then go and earn money.

Rich people *still* have more than the poor people, and so are still rich, but perhaps not *too* rich. (not as obviously I guess??).

But ofcourse, thats just some pinko-communist-trash-talk wishy washy crap, give you the american dream where the incentive to be rich is what everyone should do! I mean, I could be rich soon! down with my potential future richman taxes!!.

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903309)

Seriously that's quite a claim and needs a bit of backing up. UK folk aren't all dribbling TV-addicts whose idea of literature is The Sun "newspaper".

They're probably not illiterate, but that doesn't stop them from electing morally repugnant politicians and falling for "save the children in exchange for your freedoms" pleas. Same situation in almost every country. Being literate is an improvement over being illiterate, but intelligent they are not...

Re:That's not because eBooks are taking off... (1)

digitig (1056110) | about 2 years ago | (#40903871)

I wonder how you measuring literary merit? A lot of people would love to have an agreed measure. For what it's worth, I'm finding an eReader (not a Kindle, but it could be) very useful indeed for the set texts on a university English Literature course I am studying at the moment. Not least because I have to go abroad on business during the course, and I would much sooner carry all the set texts on an eReader than weigh down my baggage with dead trees. I also use it for the books we read in the two book groups I belong to.

Of course, only a minority of people in any country are enthusiastic about reading and good literature (whatever that is). But all those people reading books you don't approve of? Guess what? They must be literate or they wouldn't be reading. "Illiterate" doesn't mean "sometimes reads stuff I don't like".

Can we get our rights back, please? (4, Insightful)

wild_quinine (998562) | about 2 years ago | (#40903109)

Another vindication for technological progress, and another steely blow to the right of first sale.

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (2)

jamesh (87723) | about 2 years ago | (#40903291)

Can we get our rights back, please?

Another vindication for technological progress, and another steely blow to the right of first sale.

No. The idea of first sale belongs to the world of physical things, and the physical world is slowly learning to adjust to what that means. Stop trying to apply physical laws to information.

Now get off your lawn!

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (2)

wild_quinine (998562) | about 2 years ago | (#40903317)

No. The idea of first sale belongs to the world of physical things, and the physical world is slowly learning to adjust to what that means. Stop trying to apply physical laws to information.

When it has finished adjusting, I fully expect to be able to copy as many things as I want as often as I want. And I still expect art to be created, and many artists to make a living wage. All this will take time. Meanwhile, pretending I've bought something when I can hardly even use it, is a farce.

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (2)

Jahta (1141213) | about 2 years ago | (#40903397)

Can we get our rights back, please?

Another vindication for technological progress, and another steely blow to the right of first sale.

No. The idea of first sale belongs to the world of physical things, and the physical world is slowly learning to adjust to what that means. Stop trying to apply physical laws to information.

Now get off your lawn!

And what about your right not to have books that you have legally bought and paid for effectively stolen back from you by the retailer [theregister.co.uk] ? Does that only apply to the "world of physical things" too?

I have an ebook reader and while it has undeniably cool and useful features, I'm not blind to the things I'm losing; ability to resell/give to a charity shop, lend to a friend, read anywhere/anytime and not just on the retailer's preferred devices/DRM scheme, and even (on some platforms) control over my own library.

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 2 years ago | (#40903567)

Stop trying to apply physical laws to information.

No exceptions admitted? [wikipedia.org]

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (5, Interesting)

Rogerborg (306625) | about 2 years ago | (#40903327)

Good luck with flogging that high horse with your buggy whip.

If you want to buy a tangible object, read it, sell it, rub it all over your nekkid body while singing Yankee Doodle, you're still free do so.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will shed our hair shirts and enjoy living in the future.

OK, the science. What we buy is a copy. We can't sell that copy without selling the physical device that it's on. Really, we can't. To get it on someone else's device, we'd have to make another copy.

Get that? It's not semantics, we can't actually sell the eBook that we bought, we can only duplicate it.

What does your most high and holy doctrine of first sale have to say about that? Given it was conjured up in the stone age by slave owning wizards (to hear tell), I'm guessing not a lot.

It's still a bad deal (3, Insightful)

davide marney (231845) | about 2 years ago | (#40903577)

You buy two books from Amazon, one physical and the other for the Kindle. After you finish reading them, you want to pass it around your family and friends. To share the physical copy, you just ... hand it to someone. To share the Kindle copy, you must give Amazon that person's email address. They are then allowed to read it for two weeks. And you can only share it once.

Given the fact that Kindle books often cost the same or more than physical books, these restrictions make the Kindle versions a very bad deal for the consumer. Worse, in my opinion, than DRM on music, because you have to give up the email address of the person you are sharing your purchase with. Name me one other merchant who requires that you personally identify the person you share a purchase with. I'm not sure that's even legal, but even if it is, it's a horrible precedent.

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (2)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about 2 years ago | (#40903643)

What does your most high and holy doctrine of first sale have to say about that?

For a similar result, simply send them a copy of the ebook and then delete your own. Now, I don't really see the point in deleting your own copy, but that's how you'd get a similar result.

Given it was conjured up in the stone age by slave owning wizards

Really? It makes quite a bit of sense to me.

Someone hasn't read the smallprint (-1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#40903667)

"OK, the science. What we buy is a copy. We can't sell that copy without selling the physical device that it's on. Really, we can't. To get it on someone else's device, we'd have to make another copy. "

You think its that simple? You might want to go read the smallprint in amazons agreement.

Oh , and good luck being able to read anything when your expensive toy inevitably breaks.

If someone today invented a device that was always on, could always be accessed , was available to anyone at any time and didn't require recharging it would be hailed as a miracle. Except its already around and is called a book and yet people laugh. Talk about being suckered by Oooh-shiny! tech.

Re:Can we get our rights back, please? (2)

jisatsusha (755173) | about 2 years ago | (#40903799)

Not only that, the UK government charges the full 20% VAT rate on ebooks, where it charges 0% on physical books.

most ebook sales (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903143)

are just chicks buying lady-porn i.e. romance novels

Did "sales" include free ebooks? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903175)

Every kindle owner has dozens of free ebooks of classics downloaded from Amazon. On my own kindle right now, I have 41 free ebooks (downloaded form amazon like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wuthering-Heights-ebook/dp/B004UJAOLM/ref=sr_1_10?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1344332042&sr=1-10) and 4 bona fide paid-for ebooks.

Stats inflation much?

Re:Did "sales" include free ebooks? (1)

Sique (173459) | about 2 years ago | (#40903301)

No. If free eBooks are a big part of the sheer numbers, then so be it. Why throw them out of the statistics? If you want to know the revenue from paper books compared with the revenue from eBooks, you are looking at the wrong statistics. And even then there is a problem: You would have to remove the revenue from selling recyclable paper from the paper book sales, because the paper and ink are not part of the eBook sales.

Re:Did "sales" include free ebooks? (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#40903379)

No. If free eBooks are a big part of the sheer numbers, then so be it. Why throw them out of the statistics? If you want to know the revenue from paper books compared with the revenue from eBooks, you are looking at the wrong statistics. And even then there is a problem: You would have to remove the revenue from selling recyclable paper from the paper book sales, because the paper and ink are not part of the eBook sales.

If you include free books then you are probably including a lot that haven't been read. It would be equivalent of a book shop including books in their sales that people browse then put back on the shelf because they didn't like it.

Re:Did "sales" include free ebooks? (1)

Firethorn (177587) | about 2 years ago | (#40903631)

Except the stat says 'sells' more ebooks than physical, not 'distributes'. Sells implies an exchange took place, not a gift/give away.

I'll take a free ebook on a whim, and might not ever read it. Or I might read part of it and not like it.

Another thing to be careful about is that this is one on-line retailer. B&N, with it's physical stores, would be a much more interesting case if it started selling more digital editions than dead tree.

maybe not (1)

PsyMan (2702529) | about 2 years ago | (#40903193)

I don't think so, you could however use calibre to convert it and then get a friend to read the long words for you

Go e-books! (2)

BlackCreek (1004083) | about 2 years ago | (#40903203)

I am quite thankful for e-readers as they have allowed me to read more books in a more convenient format by solving problems I was experiencing with paper books, namely: storage (I own too many books and carry too many books while traveling) and font size (I have an eagle nose, not eagle eyes).

For all the problems (DRM, bad typesetting) and the perception of (IMO hyperbolic) problems with e-books (oh, Amazon will know which page I am reading -- as if there was not a direct way to turn that off AND as if you couldn't just always have your Kindle with Wifi/Radio turned off), e-books are winning. Much in the same way that digital music won. There are just too many advantages.

The Kindle (or any other e-reader I've seen) can still use loads of improvements in typesetting quality, but just the fact that I can adjust font size and type are real deal breakers for me. Instant dictionary look-up is a God send for those reading in foreign languages, but it can also be improved, dictionary setting should also work per-book, so that I don't need to switch back and forth between language dictionaries all the time. It would also be nice if a new Kindle also did PDF reflow, but I doubt it, Amazon is likely to continue giving it its half-baked support that is just good enough to avoid users from going elsewhere.

The danger of e-books by rms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903207)

Re:The danger of e-books by rms (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903919)

I find quite commendable of RMS to warn others about the privacy dangers in the digital era.

I mean, it is quite self-less as he himself doesn't actually suffers from it, as he doesn't have a meaningful personal life of any kind. I can see that for people that actually have `a life to live` privacy can be an issue.

PS: did he stop making rape jokes during his public talks already?

eBook sales (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903259)

Do these include sales using fictional credit card numbers added for account takeover purposes?

But how many books are actually read? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903261)

Sure, more e-books are bought, but how many of those are read? Perhaps people are just buying e-books because they are easy to buy, and never get around to reading their purchases.

Re:But how many books are actually read? (4, Insightful)

nospam007 (722110) | about 2 years ago | (#40903385)

"Sure, more e-books are bought, but how many of those are read?"

You mean people put them on imaginary shelves so that it looks pretty?

Reading is sort of the point with e-books, their value as status symbols is nil, you can't impress people like with leather bound volumes, bought by the yard to decorate your condo.
You can't use them as paper weights nor use them to flatten dried flowers, you can't use them as door stoppers, you can't level old tables with them, you can't hide cash in them nor hollow them out to hide your stash.

I pasted a link below with other stuff you can't do with ebooks.

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/27/cool-non-literary-uses-for-books/ [neatorama.com]

Re:But how many books are actually read? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about 2 years ago | (#40903589)

"Sure, more e-books are bought, but how many of those are read?"

You mean people put them on imaginary shelves so that it looks pretty?

Reading is sort of the point with e-books, their value as status symbols is nil, you can't impress people like with leather bound volumes, bought by the yard to decorate your condo. You can't use them as paper weights nor use them to flatten dried flowers, you can't use them as door stoppers, you can't level old tables with them, you can't hide cash in them nor hollow them out to hide your stash.

I pasted a link below with other stuff you can't do with ebooks.

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/04/27/cool-non-literary-uses-for-books/ [neatorama.com]

You convinced me: unless I can print it, I'm not going to buy an ebook ever.

Sad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903303)

There's something really sad about this. I hope they keep making books, and while I know deep down that they probably will, this scares me.

It has become my preferred method of reading (4, Insightful)

Shivetya (243324) | about 2 years ago | (#40903319)

having a Kindle touch, Kindle Fire, and even an iPad 2, I find myself reading almost all new books on the Kindle Touch. For two reasons, its so damn light and second because I can use it in full sun light.

For me nothing beats being able to read outside without having to worry about glare and portability. While I am still a fan of hard cover books, having shelves of them, I am more than happy to own an e-reader version of them. Too bad publishers don't help the trend and follow a similar model DVD publishers do, where you can get a digital version without your hard copy.

Re:It has become my preferred method of reading (1)

helix2301 (1105613) | about 2 years ago | (#40903843)

I think ebooks are destine to pass regular books, comic books, text books way the industry is going its inevitable.

Price!! (1)

greatpatton (1242300) | about 2 years ago | (#40903337)

Was about to buy a kindle book on Amazon when I realised that the kindle version was more expensive than the paper version! And it was not only for this particular book, but almost all the book are more expensive in Kindle version. This is insane! At least with a real book, I can give it to one of my friend and share it indefinitively. When they will come to more reasonable term I may resume to buy eBook but for the time being I'm not going to be their milk cow :)

"Amazon sales" not "UK sales" (5, Insightful)

1u3hr (530656) | about 2 years ago | (#40903339)

"Kindle E-Book Sales Surpass Print Sales In UK"

Bullshit. The actual story is Kindle E-Book Sales Surpass Print Sales ON AMAZON In UK.

Huge difference.

Re:"Amazon sales" not "UK sales" (1)

BiophysicalLOVE (2650233) | about 2 years ago | (#40903595)

Amazon is thought to have approximately 20% share in total book sales in 2011, so it may still be fairly indicative of the market as a whole.

Re:"Amazon sales" not "UK sales" (3, Insightful)

1u3hr (530656) | about 2 years ago | (#40903787)

Amazon is thought to have approximately 20% share in total book sales in 2011, so it may still be fairly indicative of the market as a whole.

Since no one else sells Kindle books, that means 10% of all "book" sales are Kindle. Not over 50%. Ignoring other ebook formats, of course, but so did TFA.

Obviously number of ebooks has gone up, but they don't "surpass print sales in the UK" without a lot of qualifications added to that statement.

Re:"Amazon sales" not "UK sales" (4, Insightful)

Shrike82 (1471633) | about 2 years ago | (#40903811)

Amazon is thought to have approximately 20% share in total book sales in 2011, so it may still be fairly indicative of the market as a whole.

Except brick-and-mortar stores don't really offer e-books, and Amazon is a skewed sample as they're pretty much the champion of digital book purveyance. So no, not fairly indicative at all I'd say.

I wonder if they include all the "free" books. (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#40903351)

My wife has hundreds of classics which she downloaded but has not read. I have downloaded some things on a "free for today" offer, read a page and then just discarded them. I wonder if these are included in the ebook sales. TFA doesn't not say.

Re:I wonder if they include all the "free" books. (1)

xigxag (167441) | about 2 years ago | (#40903633)

My wife has hundreds of classics which she downloaded but has not read. I have downloaded some things on a "free for today" offer, read a page and then just discarded them. I wonder if these are included in the ebook sales. TFA doesn't not say.

TFA: The online retailer said that for every 100 print books bought through its UK site, it sold 112 Kindle books. Free Kindle books were excluded from the calculations and if included would have made the gap even wider, Amazon said.

Re:I wonder if they include all the "free" books. (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#40903663)

My wife has hundreds of classics which she downloaded but has not read. I have downloaded some things on a "free for today" offer, read a page and then just discarded them. I wonder if these are included in the ebook sales. TFA doesn't not say.

TFA: The online retailer said that for every 100 print books bought through its UK site, it sold 112 Kindle books. Free Kindle books were excluded from the calculations and if included would have made the gap even wider, Amazon said.

That was a good change to the article, it makes it much clearer.

I've a Kindle 3 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903383)

Yes I've bought some books - mainly when they are "deal of the day" fodder or in the 99p or less price bracket. The rest are the "free" selection; classics or trashy sci-fi, thrillers and crime novels. My position on kindle books is only to buy when they are interesting and at charity shop levels.

On the other hand, I've bought a number of hard-back novels from Amazon in the same time period, because they're cheaper and more readily available than from local bookshops, either independent or a chain. Each time, the Kindle price for the book has been a pound or less lower than the hardback price with delivery.

£7 or more for a kindle book is a great disincentive to buy.

Fahrenheit 452.0 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903387)

The tech ignorant masses still don't understand the freedoms they are giving up with ebooks. This is a serious problem. Also it is the beginning of a dark period for future archaeologists.

This is killing my printing business! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903547)

Hi, I'm Johannes Gutenberg and my movable-type printing press business is suffering now that more people are buying these "e-books" instead of books printed using my presses. It's also killing the book binding business with many fine artisans looking for work.

Please stop purchasing these ebooks and go back to reading books printed with ink on paper. And please help out in the buggy-whip industry as well.

Kindle makes you read more... (1)

disi (1465053) | about 2 years ago | (#40903585)

Kindle readers buy four times the number of books they did before owning one, according to other data.
This is the actual thing that is good about the device... I even count the up/reading time of my kindle with uptimeproject :)

Does that account for second hand book sales? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903605)

When a book only cost $/€/£0.01 I'm buying a few from one second hand seller on Amazon.
Is that accounted for?
General Personal Stat: For every 1 Kindle book I've purchased I've bought 5 - 8 second hand books through the same site.

You are thinking about ebooks the wrong way (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903717)

eBooks should be a CONVENIENCE format AS WELL as your paper copy.

It should NOT be REPLACING your paper copy.

Anybody who buys an ebook without a paper copy is just a mug and is welcome to jump blindly off the cliff to the CLOUD.

My parents came in with this leaflet about FREE CLOUD from the purchase of a new computer and asked me to install it lol.

FOOLS.

You can pry my paper books from my dead cold hands.

Re:You are thinking about ebooks the wrong way (2)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 2 years ago | (#40903857)

eBooks should be a CONVENIENCE format AS WELL as your paper copy.

It should NOT be REPLACING your paper copy.

Anybody who buys an ebook without a paper copy is just a mug and is welcome to jump blindly off the cliff to the CLOUD.

My parents came in with this leaflet about FREE CLOUD from the purchase of a new computer and asked me to install it lol.

FOOLS.

You can pry my paper books from my dead cold hands.

You obviously haven't had a shelf full of books fall on you recently. I had to cut back on book purchases because I didn't have physical space to store them all and I re-read books over and over so I don' get rid of them. I almost never bought hardbound editions for the same reason (plus the expense, of course). So having them in electronic form instead has been a real life-saver.

On the other hand, when I "buy" a book, I expect it to STAY bought. If Amazon or B&N does a "Borders" and goes belly up, I would be greatly displeased if a major chunk of my libary evaporated overnight. So I make it a policy that anything I do buy has a crackable DRM scheme AND that I should be able to offload the book onto a generic file storage system of my own.

possibly dystopian (1)

fa2k (881632) | about 2 years ago | (#40903727)

Can you back up the ebooks? This is *absolutely crucial*. A year or so ago, Amazon pulled existing copies of "1984" by George Orwell because of a licensing dispute. It would be naive to think that a government will not take advantage of this "kill switch" (and it doesn't even have to be a government to be scary, if a company can censor information that's just as bad). If you can back them up, on the other hand, then all is good. Doesn't matter if they're DRMed either, as long as you can load them back onto the reader, we're probably not headed for dystopia.

good post (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40903877)

my co-worker's aunt makes $75/hour on the internet. She has been fired from work for six months but last month her income was $15988 just working on the internet for a few hours. Here's the site to read more http://qikr.co/7nn9m

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