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Report Cites Highest IT Job Growth In 4 Years

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the job-precipitation-from-the-cloud dept.

Businesses 176

netbuzz writes "Employment research firm Foote Partners says U.S. labor statistics from last month reveal an increase of some 18,200 jobs in IT, which represents the largest such monthly jump since 2008. 'The overall employment situation in the U.S. is lackluster, in fact this is the fifth consecutive month of subpar results,' says David Foote. 'But the fact that more than 18,000 new jobs were created last month for people with significant IT skills and experience — and nearly 57,000 new jobs added in the past three months — is incredibly good news.'"

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Isn't the second derivative negative? (4, Interesting)

feedayeen (1322473) | about 2 years ago | (#40909253)

57 thousand new jobs in the last 3 months, with 18 thousand last month. This leaves 39k for the other 2 months, netting an average growth rate of 19.5k jobs/month for those 2, in other words, the rate of growth is is nearly 10% slower than it was a month ago.

Re:Isn't the second derivative negative? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909379)

The 18k was IT related jobs in one month, where as the 57k in 3 months was all kinds of jobs, including the IT jobs. So there probably was more than just the 18k IT jobs for that last month.

Re:Isn't the second derivative negative? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909395)

I celebrate free speech, nigger.

Job growth like it's 1999. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909449)

When I see job growth return to 1999 levels, then I will think things are getting better.

Or maybe they are at those levels - overseas, that is.

And maybe the jobs are coming back, but will all those long-term unemployed IT workers be re-hired? I don't think so. All the new hires will go to new and recent college grads.

In the meantime, the unemployed have all those student loans to pay .... just think of the drag on the economy because of it.

If only student loans couldn't be treated like a Wall Street bail out? You know, loans picked up by the government and the folks who got the loans can give themselves a bonus for "screwing up".

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (3, Funny)

N0Man74 (1620447) | about 2 years ago | (#40909669)

When I see job growth return to 1999 levels, then I will think things are getting better.

If only there were a Y2.012K bug... If only software had adopted the Mayan calendar!

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 years ago | (#40909733)

Year 2038 problem

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (1)

funwithBSD (245349) | about 2 years ago | (#40909839)

Perfectly timed for me to come out of retirement and make a killing!

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910351)

Too far away. You know that companies won't start looking at it until halfway through 2036.

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910339)

> If only there were a Y2.012K bug...

Well, let's get busy and design one!

You mean unsustainable speculative bubbles? (4, Insightful)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | about 2 years ago | (#40910011)

When I see job growth return to 1999 levels, then I will think things are getting better.

So you think things will be better if/when we see the fictitious job growth levels powered up by the dot-com speculative bubble, the time when it was possible for any greenhorn to get paid $60-70K a year just for writing html????? You are an interesting creature.

I for one prefer the status quo in IT/Software than the ridiculous dot-com bubble times. I would also say we are saturated - we have quite a few in IT/Software that are really not cut for this (testament of this is the shitload of crappy monkey code that exists despite all the advances we have made in the art and science of developing software.)

Re:You mean unsustainable speculative bubbles? (2)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910635)

Well, one of the problems with crappy monkey code is that after it's in place it takes an Act of God (or a sufficient number of very public, embarrassing failures) to get it removed. Crappy monkey code tends to breed. Code that's not *quite* crappy enough to require action, or code that provides crappy, unreliable resources that just aren't important enough to require attention, tend to survive in an Darwinian way.

Crappy monkey code can even reproduce by binary fission, like bacteria, through code reuse. "I know it's crappy monkey code, but it's easier to reuse it than rewrite it. Besides, IT is already used to rebooting the machines once a month."

(And thanks, "crappy monkey code" is my new favorite term.)

Re:You mean unsustainable speculative bubbles? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40910781)

IT is too underfunded. IT got hit with a tripple whammy last decade, first with Active Directory cutting down IT costs as 4 people could do the jobs of 1 through automation and remote work, outsourcers came and elinated whole departments in some companys, and last the great recession had businesses cut to the bone and keep only the bare essentials to keep it from collasping back in 2008.

It makes sense a correction sets in now as companies have terrible outsourced IT operatations who are costing more than saving, many MBAs who evercut ar realizing the place really does fall apart if someone dares to get sick or wants to go on vacation, and last XP is EOL and it is time to recycle obsolete equipment and invest more in their underfuneded infrastructure.

It is not really .com at all as this is normal when the beancounters get aggresive when the owners realize staff is just putting out fires.

Re:You mean unsustainable speculative bubbles? (3, Insightful)

JDG1980 (2438906) | about 2 years ago | (#40911093)

Funny how whenever regular employees get paid and treated well it's an "unsustainable bubble", but when executives get millions of dollars a year it's just business as usual.

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910025)

If you can't find a job now in IT, then you are either not qualified or you don't interview well. There is no excuse for a competent person to be unemployed right now.

Re:Job growth like it's 1999. (1)

niado (1650369) | about 2 years ago | (#40910811)

I generally don't like to make blanket statements like this, but in this case it is mostly true.

Yes, there are some people that are experiencing some genuinely bad luck while job-hunting at the moment, but there is almost a glut of IT jobs right now. I've watched job listings increase by thousands over the last couple of years.

The biggest thing I see that prevents people from getting IT jobs is an unwillingness to move. If you're sitting in Nowhere, Arkansas or something then the job market probably looks a little bleak.

Re:Isn't the second derivative negative? (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910891)

Parenthetically, I'd like to thank you for using "second derivative" in a sentence; I really miss calculus.

Re:Isn't the second derivative negative? (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about 2 years ago | (#40911167)

Don't say things you might regret.

In real jobs or fake ones? (5, Interesting)

crazyjj (2598719) | about 2 years ago | (#40909271)

Is this report counting the *real* programming and IT jobs, or just the ones that companies post with ridiculous qualifications, just so they can run to Congress and claim they can't find American personnel to fill them and get more H1-B visas?

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (3, Insightful)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40909303)

The truth is, if there is an ad, and if this ad stays for longer than 1 month, then it is fake ad, and there is no real need for this job position.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (5, Insightful)

Chrono11901 (901948) | about 2 years ago | (#40909425)

It is extremely difficult to find highly skilled mid to senior level software engineers (here in NYC at least) unless you plan to pay over the top to seal someone away from another company. It seems to take at minimum a month to find someone, and thats if your a company with good benefits and great salary

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (4, Interesting)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 2 years ago | (#40909549)

As the perspective from one of those senior level software engineers, for a job worth taking, I almost certainly have to move. My kids go to yet another school, my wife has a pile of friends that become facebook aquaintences, and I am chin deep in new work for however long. If you want me to deal with that, you are going to pay me. Not only pay me what I am worth, but also for the hassle of having to deal with all of the drama that goes with it. I find most places are simply not willing to accommodate.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909615)

H1-B visa candidate it is!

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40909909)

Only the guys with social skills manage to take them, so again, you are back where you started, but with one more alien in your office. Enjoy it.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910139)

But my budget says win-win-win!

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40911149)

Funny, but did you "win" a working software too? Oh, sorry, i forgot that all the software works, one way or another....

I find those places imply not willing to... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909627)

accommodate even market rate....

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Stiletto (12066) | about 2 years ago | (#40909701)

Even if I don't have to move, you generally have to pay significantly more than I'm getting now, period. Welcome to "hiring 101". Why would I change jobs for a 2% bump in salary? If I'm that good, I'm getting yearly bumps by that amount already.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (3, Insightful)

wjousts (1529427) | about 2 years ago | (#40909863)

And a 2% yearly bump is really (barely) treating water. Inflation is usually more than that.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910209)

Yea come work for us, we tend to do 5-10% annual salary bumps for the people who carry their own weight and then some...

I've been having trouble finding a solid backend linux programmer for 80k for about 3 months now.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Kevin Stevens (227724) | about 2 years ago | (#40910451)

I hope you aren't in NYC or Silicon Valley, because that is almost entry level in those places.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910531)

Nope. Baltimore. We are looking for a mid-level candidate. 80k is a lot of money in Baltimore. Not for senior people, though no one really wants to pay a developer 150k. Even still, I have only seen a couple 150k candidates that I'd be willing to hiring (actually, only one).

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910647)

80K? Really. It doesn't sound like like a lot of money in Baltimore. It's not even a lot of money in Dallas. The strong seniors I know in Dallas are all getting 125K+, and Dallas is certainly less expensive than Baltimore.

No one wants to pay a developer 150K? I don't want to pay 50k+ for a new BMW either, but that's what they cost.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40910839)

80K? Really. It doesn't sound like like a lot of money in Baltimore. It's not even a lot of money in Dallas. The strong seniors I know in Dallas are all getting 125K+, and Dallas is certainly less expensive than Baltimore.

No one wants to pay a developer 150K? I don't want to pay 50k+ for a new BMW either, but that's what they cost.

Ha! Keep dreaming.

My brother refuses to hire anyone senior developer for more than 60k a year. His HR department uses government statistics and averages as do 90% of other employers. 80k is a ton of money! No non MBA should make that much with the exception of a few gifted sales people who can rake in more money.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about 2 years ago | (#40911075)

You trolling?

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

gmhowell (26755) | about 2 years ago | (#40911383)

That's a horrible salary. Why would someone work in Baltimore for that much when you can drive an hour to DC and make much more?

Sorry, while that may be a good chunk of money if you're willing to live with the sodomites and savages just off of 40, if you want to live in a civilized neighborhood, you have to pay a bit more.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Stiletto (12066) | about 2 years ago | (#40910469)

I don't know what geographic region you are in, but if you're in Silicon Valley, you're going to have to offer about 1.5-2X that for someone "solid".

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910537)

I am not in that man-trap. See my other post.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910877)

That's because solid back end linux programmers are worth about $80/hour on the open market (median). Lemme see here, a bit of basic math; $80/hour multiplied by the 2080 hours there are in a year of work equals about 166,400 a year. So you can offer me a minor discount on health insurance and 3 or 4 *paid* weeks off a year? Furthermore, as a consultant I get to write off all my expenses *before* I pay taxes. If I work as your employee, I get taxed on 100% of my gross. This further exacerbates the dichotomy. Why in the world would I come to work for you as an employee for $38/hour?

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40910817)

HR departments are used to the great recessions still when they had 100 applicants for each job posted. They are used to offering $40,000 a year, no relocation, and requiring 6 years of experience and prefering a masters degree, because frankly from 2008 - 2011 people out of work would jump at it!

It is now ballencing out but the companies are cheapskates and accountants and HR people are willing to wait it out to find somebody desperate who will jump. Also realize in many ways people are paid less than they were 10 years ago. Sure it might seem crap to you but demand and salaries have really been going down and employers have little reason to offer you more like I described above.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40909877)

There is a saying: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me, Fool me three times, i am an idiot.
Or if you need translation, when your method of finding highly skilled developers are fruitless....then something is wrong with you, not the market, and not the tons of unemployed professionals.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Chrono11901 (901948) | about 2 years ago | (#40910221)

There isn't anything wrong.

The reality is there are VERY VERY VERY few develops that fall into the highly skilled and unemployed demographic, hence my previous explanation that its either going to take a long time or going to cost quite a bit over market rate to poach someone from another position.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Javit (68742) | about 2 years ago | (#40911081)

"... or going to cost quite a bit over market rate ..."

No, it will cost exactly market rate. You clearly understand the basic dynamic yourself: if you raised your bid you would be able to "poach someone from another position," but at your current price sellers aren't interested. If we were talking about the analogous situation in the stock market, or the supermarket, you'd recognize the silliness of calling your low bid "market rate" and then complaining that the actual rate is "over" that.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40911235)

Really, post your job ad, salary and benefits (if any), and company or shut up.

If you can't find anyone skilled enough at your price range, you then pick someone you can train into that highly skilled employee. You've had a job postings unfulfilled for the past two months? What if you had hired someone and had put them through rigorous training for the past two months? You'd be better off that's what.

You're afraid the person is going to jump ship? Then you were either paying too low anyway and will never get the magical person you're looking for or something really sucks about your environment. Why would I jump ship from a company nice enough to offer two months of paid, rigorous training to become an expert at something that could have taken years if I had tried it in my free time. This company values me and offers me much more than just I pay check. I would be very loyal to them unless they completely fuck something up.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910223)

When is the last time you tried to hire a highly skilled IT professional? I think you must not be familiar with the turf.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910279)

In NYC people work 60 hrs per week, engineers go to work in business suit like in the 50's, everyone looks like a bank clerk, no companies have "luna parks" like the Googleplex, social skills seem to be more important than technical ones, and quite frankly people usually are not very friendly. Maybe economics and finance graduates might find it attractive, but it's definitely the worst possible city for a software engineer, no wonder companies have problems finding them.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40911407)

As someone who graduated with a BS in Software Engineering last year, I disagree. Sure there's no luna parks, but NYC has a bit of everything. Any activity you want to do or go see except country driving or skiing can be found in NYC.

I wanted to live in NYC. Too bad I couldn't figure out how to do it on $40,000 a year + a small signing bonus before taxes. Having no car helps a little and I don't use a smart phone, but I also have student loans to pay off.

I'm not sure about the 60 hour work weeks, but having no travel time to get to martial arts practice during a long lunch and then taking dance classes on the way home sounded great. I was willing to wear the business suit for the chance of pilot lessons one year and scuba lessons the next. Where else can I try a bit of everything?

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about 2 years ago | (#40911067)

Define great salary.

You are in nyc. I would consider great to be at least 150k, for someone with 5ish years.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40911245)

"It seems to take at minimum a month to find someone, and thats if your a company with good benefits and great salary"

A month is a long time? Surely you're joking. I've applied to ~200 jobs in biotech, pharma, and agribusiness. It's extremely weird to hear anything back less than a month after I've applied. Flipping through my notes it's typically two to three months from applying to phone interview with HR, another one or two weeks for a phone interview with the hiring manager, and two to four weeks later for the in person interview (assuming you get that far which isn't likely). Realistically from the day the position is announced to the day the hired person starts working is six months, maybe five if they're in a huge rush. That of course assumes that the position actually exists, that they actually want to fill it with somebody who goes through the normal hiring process, and that during that six months the position is somehow never put on hold.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

codepunk (167897) | about 2 years ago | (#40911289)

No it is rather easy, that is unless you want someone to move all of the way across the country just to plug into a closer internet connection in NY.

It simply amazes me that companies complain that they cannot find rockstar engineers and or programmers. I an interested in your job, however I am not interested in your job in NY.

I am a systems engineer, thousands of servers and in the last three years of working here I have never actually physically seen one of them. Even funnier they are not even located in the same state I am in.

On the days I do drive into the office it is usually just so I can get out of the house once in a while.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (5, Informative)

jrj102 (87650) | about 2 years ago | (#40909435)

I've filled a dozen or so positions in the last 4 years, most of them took 2-3 months to find a qualified applicant. Only once did I hire someone inside of a month. So while I am not arguing that there are a lot of fake job ads out there, the assertion that any 30+ day aged ad is fake is demonstrably false. Larger companies take time to fill positions, and with the economy slumping there is pressure to find exactly the right applicant even if that means the spot lay unfilled for a couple months (often at great pain) rather than hire someone "with potential" as was the common practice 5-10 years ago.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (5, Insightful)

afidel (530433) | about 2 years ago | (#40909725)

See, to me your post is indicative of exactly what's wrong in IT hiring today. If you're looking for exactly the "right" person it probably means your making people play buzzword bingo. This is the lazy way to hire IT people and it does nothing to assure that you actually get a good candidate. Instead you need to hire someone with the correct level of experience for the job, some familiarity with subject matter of the position, and the ability to learn. That is ALL the qualification you should realistically need since even if they've used the exact same product at the exact same version level it's likely that your environment has enough differences to their previous experience that it might as well have been a different product. It's never taken me more than two weeks to hire someone. In fact the only position at my employer I would have trouble filling quickly is the one we outsourced after having four people in 3 years fail in our environment (we needed someone with Oracle and MS SQL experience and knowledge of our ERP platform, very very niche).

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909889)

Speaking broadly, there's incredible pressure to keep head-count as low as possible now days, which means that there's very little ability to risk hiring an unproductive employee. This isn't buzzword hiring, it's leaning towards the senior proven engineers rather than taking a shot a cheaper junior guy.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (3, Insightful)

AF_Cheddar_Head (1186601) | about 2 years ago | (#40910459)

I appreciate your honesty and all but you do realize where those proven senior engineers come from don't you?

If no one is willing to take a chance on the junior guy he leaves the field and you might have missed hiring that superstar that will stay loyal to your company and not jump at the first chance to make a few extra dollars.

I work at my current job for a bit less just because they took that chance. That and I love the fact I work so many different projects in a year.

Go ahead call me a chump for having that loyalty when companies will drop you in a heartbeat but they did take a chance on me.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (2)

AuMatar (183847) | about 2 years ago | (#40909925)

It's not just people playing Buzzword Bingo. It's just hard to find *good* senior devs. At the startup I last worked for, we would interview a dozen people, be willing to hire maybe 3 of them, and get turned down by most of them. If you're looking for above average candidates (and I don't want to bother with below average ones) then you're going to have a wait on your hands. We had constant open recs, but it took months to fill one.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about 2 years ago | (#40911181)

If you are getting turned down, PAY MORE!

I mean shit, don't you business people understand the free market?

Demand goes up, PRICES GO UP!

God I want to go club a baby seal with a puppy.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40909991)

And just to add something, it takes one month to find proper applicant, and it takes one month of work, to know for sure, if he/she is good fit.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Chrono11901 (901948) | about 2 years ago | (#40910145)

Its not buzzword bingo, at least from my perspective as a Lead Software Engineer. Most interviews I have given end when supposedly mid to senior level developer who claims to be an expert at OOP and developed serval systems fails when asked even the most basic OOP questions.

20% Fail to answer "can you explain to me what public,private,and protected variables/methods are and when would you use them?".

60% fall off when asking more "advanced" questions like whats the difference between an abstract class and an interface.

Its a joyous occasion to find anyone that can hold an intelligent conversation (or do more then just stare blankly at me) on things like design patterns, Inversion of Control, and Dependency Injection.

If someone can answer these questions (most cant), then I could care less about the Frameworks you used, or the RDBMS's you have worked with.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

afidel (530433) | about 2 years ago | (#40910217)

LOL, you seriously have people coming in for a senior dev position that can't answer those questions? I'm just a sysadmin who dropped out after a few years of CS and I can answer those no problem =)

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Chrono11901 (901948) | about 2 years ago | (#40910271)

It was funny the first few times... now it just makes me cry. That and 8 page resumes with bullet like *implemented CURL.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910573)

Your questions are pretty easy. Evidently, the only reason I can't get a job is because I'm a jerk

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40911275)

You have to specify the used language too, because, as you "maybe" know, c++ does not have interface, so your question is either silly, or you are just an idiot.
And just to add some more spice, once i was asked how to call a function before the execution of the main method, and after being told how to do it (through static member class...) i politely told the interviewer that this is maybe true for Windows, but is 100% not true for LINUX/UNIX, and is fact compiler dependent, read my lips: NOT BY THE STANDARD, and that only idiots would use such an undocumented "feature" (ok, ok, this last one i did not say, just wanted to ), and that was all. I did not get the job, and i see why there are still looking for the "perfect" incompetent expert c++ developer.
Oh, and i really like the question about the "Dependency Injection", because it shows that you are some stupid java developer, and that you don't even know what the word "injection" means, you moron, but anyway, keep swimming, it is not a fish.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910269)

It's called top grading. Hire people infrequently (aka only hire the best), and fire often (aka fire those hire mistakes pronto). Top grading is one of those buzz words, but if you have a large enough team it will build a lean and mean team of kick ass people. Kick ass people means none of those people who you wonder what they are doing, because they are in fact not doing anything.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910923)

The truth of the matter is that if you are highly skilled *they* need you more than you need them. Furthermore, *they* mostly don't have much to offer you. Most places are truly hellish environments where they have to misrepresent what's going on to get good people to come join, and then they have the hope that the intertia of going out and finding other work will keep you there for a few years. What *they* don't realize is that most *good* people can pretty much go where they want.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

stanlyb (1839382) | about 2 years ago | (#40909949)

If you need 2-3 months to find a qualified applicant, do you want me to tell you how much an applicant needs to find a proper job? 5-6 months at least. So, my friend, who is going to compensate him during this period? You maybe? LOL, who am i kidding. You are IDIOT.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (2)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 2 years ago | (#40910827)

So while I am not arguing that there are a lot of fake job ads out there,

One type of fake job listing is the kind where they already have someone they want to hire for the job, but the company has a requirement that the job be posted. This is very common in academia, but it happens in other sectors as well.

It's a way of "promoting" someone at a company that has a freeze on raises. The CEO says "no raises" but there's somebody's that's going to walk unless he gets 10% more. A new job is listed with a salary of 10% more, the person puts in his application and all other applications that come in go into the trash.

Viola! The guy gets his raise and the company gets to screw the rest of its workforce. An announcement is made that employee contributions to the health care plan will be going up by 50%. The CEO gets a $200k bonus and stock options for "holding down costs". Everybody goes home happy except the people who work for a living. The guy who got the 10% pay bump thinks he's on top of the world until he learns that 2 positions were eliminated that are now his responsibility so he has to work 70 hour weeks at no overtime, since the new position is "salaried". The term used in Human Resources is "exempt", as in Q: "Why do I have to work an additional 30 hours a week at no extra pay?" A: "Because, Mr Dumb Sonofabitch, you are exempt".

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

luis_a_espinal (1810296) | about 2 years ago | (#40910065)

The truth is, if there is an ad, and if this ad stays for longer than 1 month, then it is fake ad, and there is no real need for this job position.

Not really. Positions for which there is a real need can stay open forever due to HR and management demanding Sr. level skills with Junior-level pay (or because they want to fill a Junior position but do not want Junior applicants.). I've seen this a lot.

Yes, the company goes on with IT/devs putting a lot more hours (and shit not getting done in time) because the positions are not getting filled. And since there is almost never good visibility when it comes to the cost and ROI of software and IT infrastructure, management can never really tell how much money they bleed out because of over-worked staff and delayed projects.

To say that a position that stays open for more than 1 month is a fake, that is extremelly simplistic and has little connection to how IT/dev shops run. Even in true engineering firms, positions can remain open for months for upcoming projects - it takes months to build and staff teams.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (3, Informative)

jeauxkewl (1465425) | about 2 years ago | (#40909323)

I just used my mod points or I'd have modded this one up. Don't forget some companies are laying people off and moving jobs to lower paying areas of the country where they can hire less experienced folks at lower wages. They lay off and then re-hire and claim job creation.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (5, Insightful)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 2 years ago | (#40909353)

IT is a stupid classification anyway. It includes way too many different types of jobs. It could include everything from people working at the IT help desk all the way to people designing operating systems. That would be like looking at the "manufacturing sector" but also including the people who design the machines the manufacturing plants use. Sure an increase in manufacturing jobs means they need more machines, but you still shouldn't count them in the same lot.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909621)

IT has become a catch-all categorization with the accompanying pay level of an illegal Mexican housekeeper working for your senator or congressional representative. Many companies require IT and CS degrees for customer support positions but pay call centre wages. The problem is not too few qualified "IT" workers; the real problem is an over abundance of MBA-touting dimwits in management.

I still see IT jobs that want BS / MS requirements (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 years ago | (#40909545)

For entry level jobs at least other places do say Associates or Bachelor Degree OR X years of work experience.

Any ways for most IT jobs I say Associates + other NON Degree class loads should be a the max.

As college Degrees don't really fit to well in to IT and there needs to be bridge from NON degree classes / on the job leering to a GED like system.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-11/news/ct-oped-0311-page-20120311_1_college-costs-rise-kayla-heard-college-attendance [chicagotribune.com]

Re:I still see IT jobs that want BS / MS requireme (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909681)

Wanted. IT Help Desk Associate. Salary range $15,000-$25,000. BS in Computer Science and 20 years Java programming experience required. No benefits.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

ddd0004 (1984672) | about 2 years ago | (#40909671)

Please, some of the best jobs I've have been marginally real at best and completely fake at worst.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (0)

Antipater (2053064) | about 2 years ago | (#40909957)

This report counts the number of people employed in the US this month and the number employed last month. Then it subtracts one from the other. "Having an opening listed on Monster" does not count as creating a job.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910875)

Right. At first I had an errant fantasy that companies were finally realizing that outsourcing their core competency really wasn't a good idea, (I should have known better) but reading TFA it sounds like a combination of (a) "swiss army knife" IE, one person to get burned out doing the work of an entire department at tremendous cost savings, and (b) prepubescent Cloud Bubble ramp-up. So, really, nothing new here.

Re:In real jobs or fake ones? (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about 2 years ago | (#40910913)

And really. Since when are architects called "swiss army knives"? Oh, when they have to do the actual work, not just the design. Never mind.

Good News, Everyone! (2)

ackthpt (218170) | about 2 years ago | (#40909313)

They're hiring more IT professionals to feed to crocodiles and we have a contract to deliver them!

they can bite my shiny, metal cabinet

It's hard to find real superstars (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 years ago | (#40909397)

And you may get paper superstars that say the have a big skills list and know lot's of buzzwords.

Any ways asking people to do the work of 2-3 people can lead to burn off, being spread too thin, and the hit by a bus issues where you can get be a real hard place.

Read the fine print (4, Insightful)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 2 years ago | (#40909523)

for people with significant IT skills and experience

And the only way to get most of those skills or experience is to be employed in the industry and working for companies who are willing to train you. People coming out of school or switching careers need not apply.

This goes along with the 2012 report from ManPower (which just came out) which says more than half of the U.S. employers surveyed say their pay scales are not in line with what IT workers want, which makes it hard to attract and retain staff.

The report goes on to say that many companies have scaled back on recruitment benefits such as relocation costs.

In summary, you need to have years of experience in cutting-edge technology, willing to work for pay which employers admit isn't up to par and able to pay for your own relocation.

Gee, wonder why people are saying they can't find people to fill positions.

Re:Read the fine print (3, Insightful)

jrj102 (87650) | about 2 years ago | (#40909603)

This is a fair point. The job market is actually quite good if you have a decade or two of experience, but it's abysmal if you're just starting your career. It's hard to notice the latter when you continue to get headhunters calling a couple times a week, so it's no wonder you're seeing such diametrically opposed views in this thread with regard to the state of the economy.

Re:Read the fine print (1)

Stiletto (12066) | about 2 years ago | (#40909773)

If you're right out of school, go for an internship or something--anything to get work on the resume. You won't be paid as if you had 10 years of experience, so be prepared to get a few roommates or live with your parents---just like we all did when we were just out of school.

Re:Read the fine print (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#40910893)

If you're right out of school, go for an internship or something--anything to get work on the resume. You won't be paid as if you had 10 years of experience, so be prepared to get a few roommates or live with your parents---just like we all did when we were just out of school.

Why hire an intern when I can find someone with 2- 4 years experience willing to work for just $39k a year? Yes, they can get those because no one else wants to even talk to them unless they have 8 years experience.

I have not seen an entry level job ad for many years

intern wage (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | about 2 years ago | (#40911373)

You won't be paid as if you had 10 years of experience,

Lol, you don't get paid as an intern AT ALL.

Re:Read the fine print (2)

KingMotley (944240) | about 2 years ago | (#40910151)

To be fair, I have 5 new job listings in my email from headhunters, and I haven't had my resume online in the past 2 years. They are going that far back to find candidates, granted however, only 1 of those 5 is even close to my pay range -- the rest are looking for about half what I would ask, and while I have three times the experience they want, the pay 4 of 5 are offering is about what I was making straight out of college -- 20 years ago.

Re:Read the fine print (2)

KingMotley (944240) | about 2 years ago | (#40910167)

Sorry, that should have said 5 new job listings TODAY. I get between 3-10 a day, every day.

Re:Read the fine print (1)

PerfectionLost (1004287) | about 2 years ago | (#40910317)

I have the same experience, though most people are offering similar salaries to what I have.

A demotion is a "new" job. (2)

PeanutButterBreath (1224570) | about 2 years ago | (#40909631)

"Incredibly good news" should be some combination of rising employment and rising incomes.

The true jobs picture.... (3, Insightful)

erp_consultant (2614861) | about 2 years ago | (#40909695)

Despite the somewhat rosy job numbers there is a sobering reality in today's job market. If you are very experienced and have good contacts there are lots of jobs right now in IT. I get emails from recruiters every week it seems. But if you are just out of school or are not highly specialized then your options are much more limited because now you are competing against cheap foreign labor for programming jobs. Many times I have sat in meetings where we are looking at the resume of a recent grad and quickly realize that we could hire someone from India for 1/3 the price. Of course the quality of the work from the people in India is often sub par (at least in my experience) but to the people that control the money it looks like a no brainer. They hire the person from India. It's only when you gain more experience and skills that are very hard to find that the India option is no longer viable. At that point you have more control over how much you can charge for your services and potential employers have a vastly smaller pool of people to choose from. The challenge for the new grads is how to bridge that gap and it's a vexing problem. Gone are the days when IBM would hire you out of college and give you lots of training and a job for life. Now they expect you to already have the skills and you're only one bad quarter from getting laid off.

Re:The true jobs picture.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909929)

Even if you are experienced, the job reqs thrown at you in E-mail are usually pretty crummy. First, it usually is some no-name firm, likely an Indian name in the From: field.

Then the job is something like a 3 month contract in an oil field in North Dakota during winter for $12 an hour. If you go to that area and just do oilman work, you will make far more cash (assuming you can find any place to stay in a 50-100 mile radius of the jobsite.) To boot, no benefits or anything.

People *think* there are IT jobs, but what I see are the crumbs falling down the cracks where the bottom tier "recruiters" end up spamming people in hopes of getting someone desperate (or dumb) enough to take the contract. It is likely they can't even get an H-1B to fill that contract because the yearly quota for them fills up quickly.

The days of a company hiring you without heavy "over" qualification are gone. 10 years IT? Here are the headphones. Don't forget to punch the "wrap" button or else the next caller will auto-answer as soon as the previous hangs up.

Re:The true jobs picture.... (1)

plopez (54068) | about 2 years ago | (#40910109)

"assuming you can find any place to stay in a 50-100 mile radius of the jobsite"
If you work in the middle of nowhere in the oil fields they usually have a modular/dorm arrangement for you. Grocery shopping still sucks though.

Thank you President Romney! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40909875)

Seeing as this job growth happened while Mitt Romney was running for president (thus forcing our current, unamerican president's hand) I'm going to go ahead and give Romney credit for any new jobs created. This is just a small taste of the amazing things that will happen under President Romney's firm but loving leadership.

My experience (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910195)

Been kinda sorta looking. Had 4 great interviews with 2 good offers which I ended up needing to turn down. Interviews were high quality with extensive programming and aptitude testing. Probably the best interviews I have had in my life. My current position was a luck of the draw "You are a computer guy? Come work for us and we will give you endless tasks and complain about 'nothing' getting done although we really don't know what you are supposed to do." Burned out? Yes. Spread thin? Of course. Happy? meh.

Seems that the bigger companies are willing to pay good salaries and offer day one benefits. Yep, you need experience. Definitely still need to put in time as an intern, sysadmin or test technician unless you have a 4.0 with a Masters or PHD.

MBA? Sure, you could be an analyst or in management. Without the technical experience, you will not really understand how the customers idea will work and will not understand your people.

Yet they still can't fill the damn things (2)

nighthawk243 (2557486) | about 2 years ago | (#40910241)

New jobs added, yes... but I bet they're still not filling them because of a huge disconnect between IT and Recruiting/HR. "We need MOAR H1B's!!!!" -Battle cry of every company inept at hiring IT talent.

Meshes with my reality (1)

dave562 (969951) | about 2 years ago | (#40910455)

I just hired a new guy a month ago. It took about two months to fill the position. I interviewed a lot of subpar candidates and extended an offer to one guy who ended up taking a job elsewhere. Within the organization we have hired half a dozen IT positions in the last six months. Over the next year we are going to fill another dozen.

To people who say finding good candidates is easy, while it might be some what true for entry level positions, mid-level to senior positions are hard to fill. Even if you find a candidate with decent tech skills, they might be a socially inept moron who do not fit in with the team. They might have nine years of experience in an irrelevant technology and six months of experience with the position you are hiring for. In my case I found a lot of project management types who were light on tech skills.

The reality of the market place seems to be that if you really have skills, you can command a good salary and work just about anywhere. There are not enough qualified tech people out there.

Re:Meshes with my reality (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910559)

What really are skills? Somebody with 10 years of experience and SKILL but only a few months in buzzword 2.0 is just fine by me. Skills are superior to knowledge.

What qualifies for experience is rather low-- simply using the same thing for X years but never moving beyond the 1st month can be called "X years experience" while somebody else may have learned the thing inside and out and claims the same level of experience...

We still have people posting they want people with more experience than is possible in some new buzzword; or where an actual decade of experience is not much of a benefit over a few years. Being in this field means constantly being out of date and continual specialization; plus places which want you to have 5 years .NET experience and don't care if you have 20 years programming experience and 10 in Java plus work good in a team or whatever. I suppose part of my complaint is that bullet points or database queries are replacing HUMAN REASONING so the best candidates are filtered out by brainless processes early on. People without CS degrees who are amazing is another one-- they end up going to school simply because they don't even get seen by HR due to the pre-filtering process.

Me, I'd go for somebody with broad experiences that are not horrible long and ended successfully (not fired) illustrating that they can adapt and change so they are somebody to keep around long term.... That is, if my goal was to hire keepers and not dispose of employees to save money or training time as many MBA minded people do.

in IT we need to look past degrees and go to a dif (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 years ago | (#40911163)

in IT we need to look past degrees and go to a differnt system.

maybe a apprenticeship system or a mixed class room / real work plan

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/07/18/manufacturing-industry-taps-colleges-help-alternative-credential [insidehighered.com]

may a GED like system as well.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-11/news/ct-oped-0311-page-20120311_1_college-costs-rise-kayla-heard-college-attendance [chicagotribune.com]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-25/news/ct-oped-0325-page-20120325_1_collegiate-learning-assessment-college-students-richard-arum?goback=.gmp_2084356.gde_2084356_member_141583962 [chicagotribune.com]

"I recently wrote about the possibility of testing and certification for what I called a "college-level GED." Like the current GED test for high school equivalency, it would award certification to bright, hardworking job applicants who want to show potential employers how much they know, even though they never graduated from college."

Re:Meshes with my reality (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40911189)

People who don't get fired, but only stay for a short period...That's the group of people who are taking advantage of the system by always taking the next job that pays more. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, though, right?

The bottom line here is that modern companies seem to want to hire someone who nets hundreds of thousands of dollars in income for the company's bottom line, and they want to pay that person less than the secretary, after all she's been here longer than you. You can't trick the best and brightest, that's why they're the best and brightest...

Meanwhile there's some good to be seen from all this. Evolution requires that most of these companies die. Hopefully they're not too big to fail..

Re:Meshes with my reality (1)

PeanutButterBreath (1224570) | about 2 years ago | (#40911061)

In my case I found a lot of project management types who were light on tech skills.

Were you hiring for a project management position? Were they light on project management skills?

Re:Meshes with my reality (1)

dave562 (969951) | about 2 years ago | (#40911491)

That might explain it, but no. I was hiring for a senior technical position. I needed someone with experience doing sysadmin work, networking experience, and some basic scripting skills.

A lot of the candidates I came across used to do some or all of those things, but were interested in transitioning into management. I do not need those people. That is what is being forced upon me. I spent the last two years, single handedly running 192 sq/ft of data center space that provided the foundation for a tripling of revenue from $20 to $60 million. I needed two clones of myself who could hit the ground running and not destroy the place with stupid mistakes. I found one and will have another in the next year.

Back to the original point, the market is woefully short on people who can step into a 24x7 data center operation and not only grasp what is going on, but contribute meaningfully to the continued growth of the organization. In the last year we've gone from one data center to four and are pushing up on our second petabyte of storage. There are a lot of people in the market whose VMware and SAN experience is limited to what they learned in class, or certification courses. Those people might make great employees and could one day make great contributions. Unfortunately I do not have the time for one day. I need good people now.

I really feel for people who are entering the IT job market right now. I got lucky. Seriously lucky. I was self taught upon a foundation of 2600 meetings and phone phreaking, with exposure to seriously smart hackers who knew their shit. I got lucky enough to have some good bosses who gave me excellent opportunities and I excelled. They gave me the business knowledge and professionalism that rounded out my tech skills. I don't think that many of those opportunities exist anymore. I started in a small shop, an in house IT department with 4 servers and 50 workstations. 99% of those environments are outsourced to consultants / IT service providers these days. Those providers are taking care of multiple sites like that and want experienced technicians. There are so many people out of work these days that the guys with experience are going to get the entry level jobs, and the people who really need those jobs are going to be assed out.

How many jobs for Americans? All H1B jobs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40910927)

Just wondering.

Quantifying the Demand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#40911175)

I seem to recall Donald Knuth saying something to the effect that 1 in 50 people was capable of becoming a competent software developer. It would be interesting to see the number of jobs that were needed, but I might estimate that we are already at saturation point.

When you add these crazy requirements, the pool of qualified applicants goes down slightly.

Add in an expectation for developers to work for below average wages...

You have as good a chance going to the park and finding a purple squirrel.

Which is why the term "purple squirrel" is becoming somewhat of a buzzword.

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