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Slackware Documentation Project Begins In Earnest

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 years ago | from the documentation-is-an-aneristic-illusion dept.

Linux 81

New submitter vtel57 writes "A recent thread at Jeremy's LinuxQuestions.org lit a fire of enthusiasm for a new Slackware documentation initiative. A new SlackDocs Wiki has been started on Alien Bob's (Eric Hameleers) server. There is also a new mailing list for discussion and coordination of the project. All interested parties are encouraged to visit and participate."

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81 comments

Who? (3, Funny)

Hatta (162192) | about 2 years ago | (#41082865)

Who's Earnest?

Where (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083001)

You mean where. Unless we are getting metaphysical.

Re:Where (1)

Pseudonym (62607) | about 2 years ago | (#41089841)

Oh, that's easy. He's visiting his invalid friend, Bunbury.

Re:Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083005)

Don't you mean *where's*

Re:Who? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083037)

The headline makes it seem like there has never been documentation for slackware, as if we all had to "wing it" from the start. That doesn't make much sense, considering that slackware is the longest standing linux distrubution and shows no sign of losing support.

Sure, the documentation could use a little sprucing up, yet somehow we all manage to get by.

Re:Who? (1)

Defenestrar (1773808) | about 2 years ago | (#41083337)

...Sure, the documentation could use a little sprucing up, yet somehow we all manage to get by.

I'll confess to the fact that it's been a very long while since I've run Slackware (mid 3.x versions), but if things now are like they once were, that's probably just a little bit of an understatement. There was always enough documentation if you knew what you were doing, but otherwise it was just enough to be dangerous.

Re:Who? (1)

Kozar_The_Malignant (738483) | about 2 years ago | (#41083673)

But Slackware has always come with man pages. Is there supposed to be more?

Re:Who? (1)

IrquiM (471313) | about 2 years ago | (#41084039)

Yeah, some users need it written in English. They don't speak gibberish like we do.

Re:Who? (1)

Cyphax (262239) | about 2 years ago | (#41085085)

But the "we" you're talking about should understand it or you would likely be the person that runs Ubuntu or something, but not Slackware (or a BSD, or Debian). The target audience of Slackware is the kind to understand man pages so well, I'd think...

I'm fairly happy 14 is almost out. I've been wanting to run it in a vm in Virtualbox, but the installer of 13.37 won't boot due to a kernel panic. I'm hoping that this changes when 14 comes out. :)

Re:Who? (1)

fnorky (16067) | about 2 years ago | (#41086859)

Which version of Virtualbox? I am running 13.37 with no problems on mine.

Re:Who? (1)

Defenestrar (1773808) | about 2 years ago | (#41092929)

And that's the problem - if you want to increase the amount of documentation they need to include women pages too :)

The man pages were great, but if you were just teaching yourself (especially without programming experience) a man page alone isn't enough to set up a robust system (besides, unless I'm mistaken, most man pages weren't Slackware specific). A man page doesn't give you a list of best practices (beyond the one function) or additional functions. For example, you could learn all about how to set up TCP/IP without ever running across a reference to a samba server - so you'd still be left scratching your head wondering why you had a working NIC without being able to see the other (non-linux) computers on the network.

Now Slackware was great (and probably still is) and the lack of general documentation certainly made me work harder to learn linux and remember the lessons once learned, but lack of documentation isn't what makes a distro for the elite.

Re:Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083981)

That's how I learned Linux. It was a book that came with a RedHat CD and a Slackware CD. Had to make the boot and root floppies to install. Overall pain in the ass compared to setting up Linux today. I can't remember entirely, but the kernel for the Slackware was something around 1.2.13 or so.

Re:Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083043)

I don't know, but I hear he does all sorts of wacky things with his friend Verne.

Re:Who? (2)

ilsaloving (1534307) | about 2 years ago | (#41083075)

A friend of Vern's.

Re:Who? (1)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about 2 years ago | (#41083499)

No idea, to be Frank.

Re:Who? (1)

AntEater (16627) | about 2 years ago | (#41085903)

Shirley, you must be kidding.

Re:Who? (1)

mcl630 (1839996) | about 2 years ago | (#41086105)

Well then... Push the button, Frank!

Re:Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084171)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KREMgZa6W08

Re:Who? (2)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | about 2 years ago | (#41084625)

And more importantly, who is the insensitive clod that is going to be documenting Slackware while they are in him!

Re:Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41096499)

WHERE's Earnest.

It's a small former mining town four miles both of Indiana, Pennsylvania. In order to rebuild the economy, they've been relying on cheap, used commodity hardware, and Slack's versatility, simplicity and ability to install on anything has lead them to choose it as their base distro. Unfortunately, the children without the broad range of experience haven't been able to deal with some of the caveats the old heads have easily gotten around, and the need for documentation has been growing.

I've been following the project for some time.

Fast forward (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41082869)

In three months, slashdot headline: "Slackware Documentation Project Stalls Again!"

Re:Fast forward (4, Interesting)

willie3204 (444890) | about 2 years ago | (#41083025)

Actually in three months, Slashdot headline: "Slackware Documentation Project Begins In Earnest"

In other news... (0)

psybre (921148) | about 2 years ago | (#41083033)

hell freezes over.

Re:In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083401)

hell freezes over.

Well hell froze over years ago when Slackware kicked out the Gnome DE. ^_^
One of the few right choices they ever made.

Slackware Documentation Project Begins in Earnest (3, Funny)

dyingtolive (1393037) | about 2 years ago | (#41083067)

And lasted for 2 whole minutes of everyone keeping a straight face before a raucous chorus of laughter erupted.

Re:Slackware Documentation Project Begins in Earne (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083161)

"Dude, what?"

Took me less than three seconds to dismiss the project as failed.

A good name like Earnest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083171)

And we all know the importance of being Earnest.....

you i8sYensitive clod! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083193)

Ahh Slackware (3, Informative)

wjcofkc (964165) | about 2 years ago | (#41083247)

First distro I ever installed back in 1996 and still my favorite. It doesn't get much nerdier that Slackware (except perhaps OpenBSD). I am glad it has survived all this time.

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

fisted (2295862) | about 2 years ago | (#41083969)

You're so alpha nerd, i barely dare mention that it's stupid to rate/compare OS in terms of their nerd factors.
Also i assume you're mentioning OpenBSD because it happens to be the most exotic OS you once heard about. How's NetBSD less nerdy, btw?

At what rank in the nerd OS hierarchy should i put myself for using FreeBSD?

Re:Ahh Slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084031)

yeah, no one here does that kind of nerdness comparissons. For sure you are not doing it

Re:Ahh Slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084325)

All of these rate in the top 10 waste of time factors.

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

denvergeek (1184943) | about 2 years ago | (#41084753)

Well, since OpenBSD was originally forked off of NetBSD after Theo got kicked out, I would consider OpenBSD more nerdy!

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

fisted (2295862) | about 2 years ago | (#41087967)

My question was of rhetorical nature. Thanks for answering it anyway.

Re:Ahh Slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41092373)

Why are you a dick?

That question is also rhetorical.

Re:Ahh Slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41089599)

At what rank in the nerd OS hierarchy should i put myself for using FreeBSD?

Productive?

Re:Ahh Slackware (2)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41084641)

It's #14 on Distrowatch. I wouldn't think it's doing badly @ all. Incidentally, in unrelated news, Ubuntu has now slipped to #3 - below Mint and Mageia

Re:Ahh Slackware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084983)

And distrowatch is a worthless metric. Ubuntu ships preinstalled on 10s of millions of laptops and servers. Mint and Mageia do not.

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41085675)

10s of millions? Where? I doubt that System 76 or other Linux PC vendors sell that many. Mint in the meantime has the Mintbox [linuxmint.com] , which they may start selling.

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

Saija (1114681) | about 2 years ago | (#41085157)

Curiously i just installed OpenBSD last week on some virtual machine to play with it and learned something different than Linux and Windows. I installed KDE(3.5) on it and i like learning how to do new stuff on someting totatlly new and strange

OBSD (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41085579)

I checked their page [openbsd.org] , and while w/ KDE, they are still w/ 3.5.10, in the case of GNOME, they are w/ GNOME 3.2.1 in fallback mode. I thought that they are real conservative about which software versions they tend to use.

Re:OBSD (1)

Saija (1114681) | about 2 years ago | (#41085929)

Yeah, it just feel a little oldie to run KDE 3.5, but i liked that version. I liked so much that even i was in the spanish translation team of that version translating the playground modules a couple years ago.

Re:OBSD (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41086651)

It's well known that OBSD is pretty conservative and uses stable versions of any software - be it GCC/PCC, Apache or anything else. Given all that, I found it rather strange that they've gone w/ GNOME 3.2 - one would have expected them to still be @ GNOME 2.32. On their choice of KDE 3.5.10, I wouldn't fault them, since it took KDE a while before 4 got its act together, and even now, one has to know to disable certain KDE services to make sure it doesn't slow down the system. But in their next version, they would do well to switch to MATE and Trinity.

The nerdiest thing I've ever seen. (1)

srobert (4099) | about 2 years ago | (#41087787)

Me too. Slackware 96 CDROMS from Walnut Creek. (I still have them as a souvenir).
Been using linux since then; Debian, Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu in several flavors, and then LFS. (In terms of nerdiness, LFS is Slackware squared.)
I only recently installed FreeBSD. The learning process seemed similar to my early days with Slackware. It's dejavu all over again.
The nerdiest thing I have ever seen is Nerds hanging out on Slashdot discussing which Linux/BSD distro is the nerdiest. That's just Neil Goldman nerdy.

Re:The nerdiest thing I've ever seen. (1)

inode_buddha (576844) | about 2 years ago | (#41088427)

You too? I started back around then also... spent a lot of time hanging out at tsx-11 at mit.edu its where they had all the good stuff hosted

I had a couple floppies included with a book, then there was a coupn in the back for walnut creek, even tho I didn't have a CD drive at the time... it didn't take long to get one. Dialup took a while, I tried that. Had all of slack 3 on floppies that way. It was pretty zippy on my 486 DX... good times!

Re:Ahh Slackware (1)

Mathinker (909784) | about 2 years ago | (#41103155)

> It doesn't get much nerdier that Slackware (except perhaps OpenBSD).

Oh, yeah? I run Plan 9 inside of a virtual machine running on Haiku!

Antithetical (1)

Nethemas the Great (909900) | about 2 years ago | (#41083341)

Isn't documentation antithetical to the very nature of Slackware? It's a bit like Steve Jobs serving meals at a homeless shelter.

Re:Antithetical (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083433)

Err, unless you count the man pages, the documentation included in an install in /usr/doc, or the community forum over at linuxquestions.org... In my experience on Slackware and Ubuntu, I'd even say that finding help in the documentation on Slackware is easier, simply by virtue of not being bogged down with useless forum postings, and dealing with the fact that from one version to another, changes by Canonical change the way things break, and how to fix them, while Slackware doesn't deal with that kind of upstream shenanigans. Criticizing Slackware for lack of a repo-based package management system, I could see (though not necessarily agree with), but the documentation has always been available. This is just an attempt at an upgrade to it.

Re:Antithetical (4, Funny)

Mister_Stoopid (1222674) | about 2 years ago | (#41083443)

It's a bit like Steve Jobs serving meals at a homeless shelter and letting the homeless decide what they want to eat.

Fixed for proper Steve Jobs analogy.

Re:Antithetical (1)

SigmundFloyd (994648) | about 2 years ago | (#41084263)

Isn't documentation antithetical to the very nature of Slackware?

Yes, it is. Being as close as possible to "vanilla Linux", Slackware never needed much specific documentation of its own.

As a Slackware user, I'm actually a bit surprised at this piece of news.

Re:Antithetical (1)

mister_playboy (1474163) | about 2 years ago | (#41086573)

Maybe someone has been spending time looking at the ArchWiki and decided to give Slack it's own version...

Arch also uses all vanilla packages, but having so much info on the wiki has been a huge timesaver when troubleshooting.

Re:Antithetical (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41087251)

when you're a rolling release closer to the bleeding edge, i imagine troubleshooting is something spends more time on when using Arch.

Re:Antithetical (1)

mrclisdue (1321513) | about 2 years ago | (#41093335)

ArchWiki is held in high regard by most slackers (and is often used and referred to) so you're not wrong in suggesting this. The OP of the thread at LQ refers to Arch in his opening comments, and the first reply suggests ArchWiki as a model (cheers to kiki and Didier.)

As a member of the slack cult, I'm enthused by community response.

cheers,

As Oscar Wilde Said (1)

fm6 (162816) | about 2 years ago | (#41083445)

It's important to be Earnest [youtube.com] .

Re:As Oscar Wilde Said (1)

pnot (96038) | about 2 years ago | (#41084043)

It's important to be Earnest [youtube.com] .

"A handbook!?"

Does Anybody Care? (0)

fm6 (162816) | about 2 years ago | (#41083625)

So what distinguishes Slackware from other distros? No public bug tracking. Closed development process. A primitive character-mode installer. All administration is done from the command line. No dependency tracking. Minimal feature set.

Could somebody who uses this thing explain why they prefer it to a more modern and open distro?

Re:Does Anybody Care? (5, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | about 2 years ago | (#41083773)

Because:

- No public bug tracking is required. Closed development process is a myth - it merely packages plain source installs of everything it uses and pushes patches upstream. Actual patches above-and-beyond the version is states it uses of a particular app/library are virtually zero.

- A primitive character-mode installer that lets you install it on ANYTHING. Literally, anything. And not worry about whether it supports VESA even, let alone KMS.

-.All administration is done from the command line. So you don't NEED X. Perfect for server installs, in my experience, but perfectly serviceable as a desktop if you want (which one? Have them all!)

- No dependency tracking - true, but the base install contains everything you need for a pretty substantial install. And if you're installing servers and working machine rather than desktops, you probably don't need to touch anything.

- Minimal feature set? Same as every other distro, just maybe not as integrated and automatic as you would like. That's a plus to me - I can tell EXACTLY what's going to load when and can cut out the crap on the installer before it even gets off the disk. Oh, and it runs all the latest kernels just fine.

If you think of PC's as "things that need a GUI", it's probably not for you. If you think of PC's as "things that get a job done, reliably, every time, with the minimum of extraneous resources consumed", then it's fabulous.

Hell, it took about two-three days to get ArmedSlack (the ARM port) working on Raspberry Pi. Still the only thing I'd use on that device, given it's low footprint and having to boot off my 2Gb card. And when you intend the distro to do nothing more than track GPS, dial up 3G, integrate with external electronics, etc. then a 100Mb install that still can be SSH'd into without even having to go looking for what to install is a big plus. And no GUI required.

The thing that distinguishes Slackware is that it was the first EVER distro. And it hasn't changed much. Sweet, simple, small, stable. Hell, I have 10+ year old machines still running on Slack.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | about 2 years ago | (#41083907)

No dependency tracking - true, but the base install contains everything you need for a pretty substantial install. And if you're installing servers and working machine rather than desktops, you probably don't need to touch anything.

Until there's a vulnerability in something you installed and you then need to upgrade. Then you're pretty well fucked and are going to likely end up with a mess of broken dependenies and/or substantial downtime while you upgrade.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084051)

This is why you need to know how to make your stuff rather than do a rpm -i and call it a day.
Good old configure

Re:Does Anybody Care? (2)

armanox (826486) | about 2 years ago | (#41084133)

So you install an updated version? Slackware does release updates you know.

Or if I installed/compiled the file myself, then I should be building the updates.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

SigmundFloyd (994648) | about 2 years ago | (#41084357)

Until there's a vulnerability in something you installed and you then need to upgrade. Then you're pretty well fucked and are going to likely end up with a mess of broken dependenies and/or substantial downtime while you upgrade.

Not if you know what you're doing. Your described PEBKAC.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (3, Insightful)

Minwee (522556) | about 2 years ago | (#41085733)

Your described PEBKAC.

Indeed, but which K and which C?

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

fm6 (162816) | about 2 years ago | (#41084213)

More briefly put, its apparent disadvantages are actually advantages when you have old or limited hardware. Fair enough.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

chadruva (613658) | about 2 years ago | (#41087169)

I had a "white box" server back in 2004 with slackware, a very puny 256mb pentium 4 with tailor made (compiled) kernel, and for around 5 years it kept going very well serving a small PHP app with MySQL and email, it runned like a champ, we tried to keep it up to date but then we forgot about it for a couple of years, then a few changes to the hosted app needed an upgrade again and there is where disaster struck, never upgrade more than 2 versions up, we screwed glibc update.

In the end we reinstalled debian to lower maintance overhead while keeping it updated, but once you configure slackware it runs smoothly until the end of the hardware itself.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41083803)

I don’t know but I’ll take slack any day over any other linux distro, after all if I want ease of use I’ll go windows and not a linux clone of it.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (2)

SigmundFloyd (994648) | about 2 years ago | (#41084515)

No dependency tracking.

If you want dependency tracking, you can install pkgsrc [pkgsrc.org] for Linux, as I did.

To anyone who really digs the Slackware way, the concept of a distro-mandated packaging system simply doesn't make any sense.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41085689)

WOOT +1

pkgsrc on linux user, for when I have to use pkgsrc

Using ssd linux (www.plathome.com/support/ssdlinux/) - perfect base for pkgsrc.

though it needs some tweaking for my tastes (LVM, UDEV, etc)

one day I will release my own ssd linux, one day

lol

Re:Does Anybody Care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41085731)

erm - for when I have to use linux, thatis.

otherwise, it's dragonfly

Re:Does Anybody Care? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084569)

no, sorry, as you clearly don't understand subliminalism, and are not devoted to total slack.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (2)

tlhIngan (30335) | about 2 years ago | (#41085017)

So what distinguishes Slackware from other distros? No public bug tracking. Closed development process. A primitive character-mode installer. All administration is done from the command line. No dependency tracking. Minimal feature set.

Could somebody who uses this thing explain why they prefer it to a more modern and open distro?

Slackware I've considered to be more "pure" in the sense you administer it the same way you administered a UNIX box - at the command line and all that. None of the fancy distro-specific administration tools or anything.

For me, it's a good way to learn the ins and outs of it but it's really a hacker's OS to play around with, screw things up and fix them, and have complete control. If that's your thing, great.

The other more popular distros which use tools are more for people who want to get stuff done with minimal fuss and call it a day. Sure you need some Linux knowledge, but most of your day-to-day stuff is taken care of for you so you can get your work done without having to mess with your system continually.

It's probably the closest to Linux from Scratch without having to compile and build everything yourself, or building it all yourself like Gentoo. Of course, this also means you can customize your system exactly the way you need to with just the libraries you need and not what the distro requires.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41085227)

I really hope this is just a troll post. There were recent security issues discovered in BIND, which was patch right away. Oh you have to upgrade? slackpkg -upgrade BIND. Pretty straight forward.

Re:Does Anybody Care? (1)

rastos1 (601318) | about 2 years ago | (#41085869)

Could somebody who uses this thing explain why they prefer it to a more modern and open distro?

Because if something breaks, then I really find the thing that broke. Not like you install Ubuntu and the NetworkManager causes havoc. And you need to disable the damn automagic thing. Better yet uninstall it completely. And then a write a /etc/network/interfaces file that nobody knows who actually reads it. If I want to see how is the IP address or broadcast is assigned in Slackware, then I really can find the ifconfig statement that sets that up and the watch where the parameters come from (pity, that Slackware did not yet move to iproute2 in the boot scripts). I don't need a package management program with parameters to find out when did I install a package XY. I can do that with ls. And to find out which package installed file AB, all I need is grep.

Perhaps it's difficult to convey ... in Slackware it is easy to understand how it works. Or find out. With "more modern distro" you treat it as a blackbox. Yes, you could dissect it to the level of source code. But almost nobody does that. You get advice for solving a problem from people that treat it as blackbox. They cross the fingers and hope that it works. They don't really understand why or how the problem was solved. Or whether it was really solved or just does not manifest so obviously anymore.

Runs on ARM? (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41086019)

Here's one - do most of the modern distros run on ARM? I'm guessing that Slackware, like Tiny Core/Damn Small can run on a Raspberry Pi. Or any embedded box built w/ an ARM - something that will not run Windows or Wintel software, but will happily accommodate Slackware's requirements.

So anybody could build - like the MintBox - an inexpensive, embedded ARM based box, and put Slackware on it, and run it. Granted, there will be other options as well - Minix, Tiny Core and Damn Small Linux, Gentoo, and some others. But seems like Slackware might be more suited for it than the likes of Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, et al.

Re:Runs on ARM? (1)

fnorky (16067) | about 2 years ago | (#41087011)

Yes, Slackware does run on ARM. You will find the official port at http://www.armedslack.com. Getting it up and running on the Pi doesn't take much.

Makes Sense (1)

onkelonkel (560274) | about 2 years ago | (#41083635)

RTFM Noob!

What manual?

Oh, sorry.

Re:Makes Sense (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41084393)

>man man

Re:Makes Sense (1)

alvarogmj (1679584) | about 2 years ago | (#41084875)

Your answer reminded me of how difficult can some UNIX-related searches be. when I google

man unzip
man find
man sleep
man fsck

and others, I always feel a little dirty...

Re:Makes Sense (1)

MaskedSlacker (911878) | about 2 years ago | (#41088999)

You're doing those in the wrong order.

A sincere thank you (2)

overmoderated (2703703) | about 2 years ago | (#41084775)

To all developer who devote themselves to open source and make it available to others for free. To all people who post on forums to help others. It takes a good person to do that. Thank you.

Re:A sincere thank you (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41091735)

You're welcome but you might want to read some history to know that open source is but a marketing campaign for free software. That's what this is all about and that's what matters.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html [gnu.org]

Cheap Fashionable Replica Handbags (-1, Flamebait)

moyanqin (2712681) | about 2 years ago | (#41089851)

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