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Ubuntu Gnome Remix 12.10 Arrives For Testing

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the mixing-it-up dept.

GNOME 175

sfcrazy writes "The first ISO (alpha) images of Gnome Shell edition of Ubuntu is now available for download and testing. The Gnome edition of Ubuntu will bring back a lot of hard-core Gnome Shell fans who were looking elsewhere to get the pure Gnome Shell experience. Both Fedora and openSUSE are doing a great job at offering Gnome 3 Shell experience and the arrival of Ubuntu GNOME Remix will give the project the audience it needed."

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I don't get it (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211023)

I've been a Linux user for a few years now and while I've seen great strides made in desktop aesthetics and usability, I still can't with a pure conscious say that any of the DEs are as good as or better than what comes on Windows or OSX. Windows is without a doubt snappier and the taskbar has a lot of nifty and intuitive features. I can get past the artwork, fonts, and icons on Gnome/KDE/Xfce/etc. as I get that good artists cost money and that's not something these groups have in spades but basic usability is not something that needs to look good, it just needs to work. So, what's the deal?

Re:I don't get it (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211057)

...continued

Take the window previews in Windows. I used to have those with Compiz and you can enable them in Unity but the implementation is buggy. When you mouse off of them, a lot of the time they won't go away so you have to mouse back over again. Also on Windows, you can grab the bottom of a window and pull it down to the taskbar to get a maximize vertical state. Why can't I do that in Linux? Another thing that rocks with Windows is if say you download something and you right click and select "see file in folder", when the file manager opens, the file is already selected so you don't have to hunt around for it. This is a small thing but it makes a huge difference by eliminating extra work. Also, if I select "Single Click" in the Nautilus settings, why doesn't the file picker respect that? And why is the file picker stuck on "details" mode? I'm pretty sure that KDE doesn't have these problems by the way but it has other ones. The main one being how much slower than GTK based DEs it is. I haven't tried it since probably 4.6 though so this could be fixed by now.

Anyway, there are many things I like about Linux on the desktop that Windows doesn't have like focus follows mouse (a must for multiple monitors), being able to mouse scroll a non focused window when I don't have ffm turned on. I love the way the notification tray in Unity looks and works. It's super consistent and writing plugins for it is a breeze. I also like the dock in Unity with how easy it is to add functionality to a launchers right click menu something that Windows and OSX people can only dream about. I just wish Linux didn't fall down on the simple things. I really want that auto file select thing.

Re:I don't get it (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211319)

So where in Burson Marsteller do YOU work?

Re:I don't get it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211359)

So where in Burson Marsteller do YOU work?

Oh, hurt me, hurt me, hurt me. Believe me, I'm not shilling for anybody. I've been using Linux for a long time and I love it. All around I find it a much better experience than the proprietary alternatives. I probably laid it on a little too thick by saying that the interface for Windows and OS X is "better" because really, they aren't. They all have quirks I just prefer the quirks in Unity over the quirks in the competition. I do stand behind the other little gripes though. Unfortunately I've provided some troll-fodder so I probably should have aired the laundry in a Linux forum and not on Trolldot.

Re:I don't get it (5, Insightful)

hairyfeet (841228) | about 2 years ago | (#41211675)

You DO realize that every time someone like you screams "Shill!" when someone points out a legitimate beef you make the community look like this guy [penny-arcade.com] right?

As for why basic usability features don't get done, its simply human nature or as i like to call it "the busted shitter problem". It has been said time and time again its the last 20% that takes 80% of the work but with FOSS you have the busted shitter problem in that releasing NEW software is FUN, while spending years doing bug fixes, regression testing, and QC? Is about as fun as getting a root canal at the DMV. To hunt down that bug and fix it will probably take a good year of hard work that is gonna suck balls, so why in the hell should somebody do a lousy job like that for free?

And THAT is the problem in a nutshell. Apple and MSFT pay millions of dollars to developers to do all those truly shit jobs so those bugs don't end up affecting the end user, whereas the devs for a lot of the stuff in Linux are doing the work gratis so the truly shit jobs aren't done.

Maybe a combination carrot and stick approach is required? Have a bounty for the worst bugs, were people donate to get them fixed, and at the same time have a set schedule, say 5 years, per software release when it comes to things that the system counts on. That way the devs can't just keep putting out new versions willy nilly because the distros won't add them to the repo and would have an incentive to actually work on what they have instead of through the baby out with the bathwater like they did with the DEs and sound subsystem.

Because there are plenty of guys like me that would be happy to put your product on new systems and give you a support network like Apple has with the Apple stores but obvious major bugs like that being released in supposed "ready for the user" software just makes the whole system look second rate and it makes after market support a nightmare and too costly for the little guys.

Re:I don't get it (1)

humanrev (2606607) | about 2 years ago | (#41211991)

Maybe a combination carrot and stick approach is required? Have a bounty for the worst bugs, were people donate to get them fixed, and at the same time have a set schedule, say 5 years, per software release when it comes to things that the system counts on. That way the devs can't just keep putting out new versions willy nilly because the distros won't add them to the repo and would have an incentive to actually work on what they have instead of through the baby out with the bathwater like they did with the DEs and sound subsystem.

Occasionally I will donate to open source projects (particularly if they have an easy method of donating like PayPal) if I use the software often and feel it's worth a bit of cash if it will help with future development. Although I haven't done it yet I'm likely to donate to Linux Mint as they seem to be doing the best job (in my opinion of course) in making an easy-to-use Linux distro with sane defaults and decisions. But I know I cannot use that money as a method of enforcing improvements - it's a donation; you can only hope it will help provide incentive/resources to continue development.

Re:I don't get it (2)

aix tom (902140) | about 2 years ago | (#41212127)

releasing NEW software is FUN, while spending years doing bug fixes, regression testing, and QC? Is about as fun as getting a root canal at the DMV

That's why I think that the whole "let's bring the Linux desktop to the masses" approach is flawed.

FOSS is at it's best when there is a huge overlap between the people who use the software and the people who write the software. Because THEN fixing bugs that impede "getting the work done" has a higher priority than cranking out new features. There are a lot of examples of software that hasn't really "changed" feature-wise in years, even decades. (bash, vim, lynx, slrn) and so on. Sooner or later I hope some of the GUI alternatives will reach the same level of maturity, so that they just "work as intended" and the user interface doesn't need to be changed all the time. That could be a huge market. A lot of corporate environments begin to get fed up with having to re-train users all the time, they stick with old software mainly because it isn't practical to switch work-flows around all the because someone decided to try a new interface design he thought to be cooler.

Having a line of FOSS alternatives that focus on not changing interfaces all the time, but to keep them stable and consistant long-term could be a way to get more FOSS adoption on the desktop side in corporations.

Re:I don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41213255)

On the converse....

I find myself sorely missing alt-drag and virtual desktops on Windows. The 'powertools' virtual desktop management actually seems very lacking. There is an alt-drag project to add alt-drag as a third-party addition, cluttering the already massively cluttered system tray in windows.

In terms of KDE, it's not that QT was slower than GTK, it's that many parts of KDE has had performance issues, and KDE has made great strides.. Nowadays you can get Windows-like previews, or compiz 'present windows', or a combination thereof. KDE's task management can now act very dock-like if you wish.

Re:I don't get it (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211237)

Obviously, this is completely subjective. So far I've found XFCE, Gnome 2, and KDE all much more enjoyable to use than any Windows interface.

I can get past the artwork, fonts, and icons on Gnome/KDE/Xfce/etc.

It couldn't be more simple to switch themes, icons, etc.

Windows is without a doubt snappier and the taskbar has a lot of nifty and intuitive features. [...]but basic usability is not something that needs to look good, it just needs to work.

Usability and "snappiness" are not things any of them are behind in, so no idea what you're going on about there. I can't think of anything off the top if my head that the Windows taskbar can do that you can't do in other DEs. If there is any, it's not anything I used.

Take the window previews in Windows. I used to have those with Compiz and you can enable them in Unity but the implementation is buggy. When you mouse off of them, a lot of the time they won't go away so you have to mouse back over again.

Compiz bugs most likely trace back to your graphics drivers, which is unfortunate, but doesn't at all speak to the state of DEs.

Also on Windows, you can grab the bottom of a window and pull it down to the taskbar to get a maximize vertical state. Why can't I do that in Linux?

That's what tiling WMs do, and much more. I've also used an XFCE fork that does this, but I didn't use it frequently.

Re:I don't get it (2)

metacell (523607) | about 2 years ago | (#41211461)

You really have no problems with the Gnome desktop at all? In Ubuntu 11.10, the system menu applet (top right) used to disappear regularly for me, and be replaced with a duplicate switch user applet. In the Gnome version of Ubuntu 12.04, the sound applet disappears instead. If I switch to Unity, the desktop freezes with alarming regularity. Or sometimes, all program windows freeze, while the Unity menus are still active.

I'd still rather use Linux than the backdoor-infested parasite that is Windows, but it could be a lot better.

Re:I don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211951)

You really have no problems with the Gnome desktop at all? In Ubuntu 11.10, the system menu applet (top right) used to disappear regularly for me, and be replaced with a duplicate switch user applet. In the Gnome version of Ubuntu 12.04, the sound applet disappears instead. If I switch to Unity, the desktop freezes with alarming regularity. Or sometimes, all program windows freeze, while the Unity menus are still active.

I'd still rather use Linux than the backdoor-infested parasite that is Windows, but it could be a lot better.

In 11.10 they changed the configuration database for gnome but somehow gnome did not pick up changes in the database. I moved to Unity but that turned out to be a cluster-fuck that took a long time to beat into something I could work with. Additionally certain shortcuts are caught deep in the window manager and you can't override them which is pretty annoying for me since I'm a n OS X user and wanted to remap a whole lot of shortcuts from the [ctrl] to the [cmd] button. Another gripe is that switching desktops is dead slow in 12.04 with both Unity and Gnome.

Re:I don't get it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211253)

I wish the Windows shills had kept their Bonch/Tech* etc etc names. At least we knew not to read their vile garbage.

Re:I don't get it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211477)

You must still be using winXP.

Re:I don't get it (2)

mvar (1386987) | about 2 years ago | (#41211563)

Windows is without a doubt snappier

This is probably the biggest issue for me (along with the lack of mainstream games)

Re:I don't get it (3)

fa2k (881632) | about 2 years ago | (#41211867)

The problem is that you can't benchmark "snappiness". It's easy to count the number of seconds it takes to boot, and distro developers seem to get fixated on that. Response time involves CPU scheduling and throttling, the graphics subsystem, I/O scheduling, prefetching, caching, etc. (probably too obvious to be "insightful", but I'll post it anyway)

Re:I don't get it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212191)

The problem is that you can't benchmark "snappiness". It's easy to count the number of seconds it takes to boot, and distro developers seem to get fixated on that. Response time involves CPU scheduling and throttling, the graphics subsystem, I/O scheduling, prefetching, caching, etc. (probably too obvious to be "insightful", but I'll post it anyway)

One can actually quantify user interface 'snappiness', in academia it's called 'user interface friction'. If you put in some effort into searching the web you can even find a few CS papers on the subject.

Re:I don't get it (3, Interesting)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | about 2 years ago | (#41211673)

...and the taskbar has a lot of nifty and intuitive features.

Like what?

Linux Mint (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211031)

If you want Gnome 3 technologies on Ubuntu, without the awkward UI, Linux Mint has a default UI called Cinnamon which moulds Gnome Shell into something usable by humans. Give it a spin.

Re:Linux Mint (1, Insightful)

collet (2632725) | about 2 years ago | (#41211069)

I actually used gnome shell for more than five minutes and don't really want to go back to windows 95.

"Blah blah blah proven interface blah blah blah fuck change"

It's still better.

Re:Linux Mint (2, Interesting)

collet (2632725) | about 2 years ago | (#41211073)

Also I think switching distro JUST for a different DE is retarded.

Re:Linux Mint (2, Insightful)

paulatz (744216) | about 2 years ago | (#41211099)

Also I think switching distro JUST for a different DE is retarded.

Especially when you are switching to a bug-infested ubuntu clone

Re:Linux Mint (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 2 years ago | (#41211257)

Well, Mint is not just a different DE. It's generally better about "just get all this shit working" stuff, like drivers or Flash support.

More importantly, you can install the Debian variety instead of Ubuntu, and enjoy some unmolested packages.

Re:Linux Mint (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211493)

I enjoy molesting young women.

Re:Linux Mint (2)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about 2 years ago | (#41211523)

You'll want OpenBSD for that. With full disk encryption.

Re:Linux Mint (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#41212291)

I enjoy molesting young women.

If you work for HP just make sure you have an Oracle job lined up for when you get caught.

Re:Linux Mint (0)

0100010001010011 (652467) | about 2 years ago | (#41211569)

Linux Mint Debian Edition is the best 'desktop' release out there right now in my opinion. It's a rolling release so it is always up to date with Debian testing (or if you are brave unstable).

Plus a whole lot of stuff in the Mint repositories that make it a good desktop.

Re:Linux Mint (1)

Fallingwater (1465567) | about 2 years ago | (#41211631)

I've had three separate goes with LMDE. First when it had just come out, and honestly I blame myself for that - you just don't try a distro before several months of testing by the public have passed. Video drivers wouldn't work, and it was full of bugs.
Second time just for kicks, as I have a business box that I don't really need but that's too worthless to sell, so I keep it as a backup computer and for those "ooh, new distro, let's check it out" moments. I couldn't get a positive feeling with it; things didn't quite work as seamlessly as the Mint people say, and I often found myself thinking "argh, why do I have to do this when in Debian it'd just work?". Eventually I just switched back to Debian.
Third time was when a friend asked me for something that was "like ubuntu but without the mess". Thought maybe LMDE had matured enough by then, so I installed it and we tinkered at it for a while. It was not a particularly pleasant experience. I ended up installing PCLinuxOS on my friend's laptop, and they've never been happier.

Re:Linux Mint (0)

epyT-R (613989) | about 2 years ago | (#41211465)

blah blah blah fallacy blah blah blah..

Wishful thinking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211033)

Both Fedora and openSUSE are doing a great job at offering Gnome 3 Shell experience and the arrival of Ubuntu GNOME Remix will give the project the audience it needed.

Since when such blatant personal views which largerly border on wishful thinking are accepted as information on /.? Sorry to ruin it for the submitter but on Distrowatch, neither Fedora nor OpenSuse made any progress with the "pure" GNOME 3 experience. On the contrary, the two top distros, Mint and Mageia focus on traditional desktop metaphors without trying to force dumbed down tablet UIs down users' throats. Besides, Fedora is going to include MATE [mate-desktop.org] , the fork of GNOME 2.

Sure, GNOME 3 needs an audience -- as does Ubuntu. But I really don't see the Unity disaster being fixed with the GNOME 3 debacle.

Re:Wishful thinking (5, Informative)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#41211121)

But I really don't see the Unity disaster being fixed with the GNOME 3 debacle.

I tried Unity when it first got started in 10.10 and I hated it. It was buggy, it was unintuitive, on and on. Then I tried it again in 11.04 and while it was better it still pretty much sucked. On to 11.10 which while not being as good as Gnome 2, was usable. But now that I have been using it for a few months on 12.04, I love it. It's definitely a more productive environment for me than default Gnome 2 was especially with the integrated search. I prefer the approach to multiple monitors, the notification area is vastly improved and very uniform, the dock is solid and does exactly what it needs to do and even sports the per icon right click menu configurability. I'm a big fan of the HUD. Press the alt key and you can just start typing any functionality in your applications menus and the HUD will look until it finds a match. Makes Gimp very easy to use. About the only thing I don't like about Unity is the dash menu. It opens only after a noticable delay, does a very poor job of facilitating application discoverability and the icons are comically large. If it had some kind of list mode and a bit more functionality it might be better. But even that can be easily mitigated with the classic menu panel plugin or the cardapio launcher.

Basically, I thought I'd never like Unity but in 12.04 at least for me it seems solid and deserves a place at the table.

Re:Wishful thinking (1)

BluPhenix316 (2656403) | about 2 years ago | (#41212139)

I completely agree. The HUD is pretty awesome. The only thing I don't like really is the dock. However, you can just auto-hide the dock and use something like Avant or Cairo which is much better. Well I think the whole purple color scheme of Ubuntu sucks as well. You can change the purple color scheme but with LightDM even if you change the background and startup splash there is still a brief period of time when the screen is purple before the background loads. I think there is a patch for LightDM that fixes it if you want to recompile and install it but that is a lot of work just to change something that only lasts for a couple of seconds on boot.

Re:Wishful thinking (2)

ericcc65 (2663835) | about 2 years ago | (#41212609)

I haven't used Unity but, to be honest, the one thing I can't get over is the lack of symmetry. I know, it's petty, but it just hits me as wrong, like fingernails on a chalkboard wrong, to have something on the top and left side of the screen. Is that changeable?

Re:Wishful thinking (1)

BluPhenix316 (2656403) | about 2 years ago | (#41213201)

Depends on what you are talking about. You can hide the dock completely and use your own. I use Avant Window Manager and it provides a MacOS X style dock at the bottom of the screen. If you are talking about the HUD, then i'm not sure if you can change it but it never bothered me being in the upper left hand corner. You can change the Windows themselves. You can detach the menus from the top bar if you want. You can also change where you want the close, maximize and minimize buttons if you want as well.

Too little too late (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211055)

They turned it from "Linux for Humans" to "Linux for morons". Trust broken. The damage is done. The certainty's gone. The spirit altered.

Re:Too little too late (4, Insightful)

pointyhat (2649443) | about 2 years ago | (#41211133)

Unfortunately "Linux for Morons" is the only thing likely to grow market share as most humans are morons.

I dont blame them really - for most people, it's just another appliance.

Re:Too little too late (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211207)

Unfortunately "Linux for Morons" is the only thing likely to grow market share as most humans are morons.

Of all the things keeping Linux off the desktop, I'd put complicated desktop environment at best around 15th. Gnome 2 was at least as easy to use as Windows XP was for example. I'd say the number one issue is lack of third party support. It's just not very easy to get started developing for Linux. There is no "Visual Studio" standard. I mean, what are you supposed to use? Vim and Glade? Get real. In order for interesting "long-tail" applications to appear on Linux, you have to make development cut and dry. Think Android simple. Lots of great documentation, drag and drop GUI, and an easy, performant language to get rolling in. That's the fundamental flaw right there since practically everything in an operating system depends on good development tools. Then we can start talking about library incompatibilities between distros, and driver breakage, etc.

Re:Too little too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211233)

There's a metric fsck-ton of third party applications running on Linux. Pretty much every program my company writes runs on some form of Linux, or Solaris for the older software that we still support.

There just isn't much third-party commodity software because the free equivalents are generally good enough.

Re:Too little too late (3, Informative)

vurian (645456) | about 2 years ago | (#41212137)

"There is no "Visual Studio" standard. I mean, what are you supposed to use? Vim and Glade? Get real." Qt Creator. That's a really excellent development environment.

Re:Too little too late (1)

IAmR007 (2539972) | about 2 years ago | (#41212771)

KDevelop is starting to get there as well. It's still a bit buggy and needs some usability improvements (such as more automatic ctags stuff), but it's made quite a bit of progress and keeps getting better. I personally quite like the feature that gives each local variable its own tint (saturation can be adjusted in the config, mine's at ~10%); It takes a few hours to get used to and therefore not be a distraction, but once comfortable, the color coding makes visually scanning code easier to track. It's not quite up to Qt Creator level, yet, but it's something to keep an eye on.

Re:Too little too late (1)

RazorSharp (1418697) | about 2 years ago | (#41212905)

Unfortunately "Linux for Morons" is the only thing likely to grow market share as most humans are morons.

I dont blame them really - for most people, it's just another appliance.

But morons ask non-morons for OS advice. Morons pay attention to what non-morons use, and then use that.

The trick is a balance. Make it usable for morons but hidden beneath the surface is everything a geek wants. This is how OS X became so successful. No one trusted Mac OS in the 90s not b/c only a small niche used it, but b/c the wrong niches used it. No one turned to their graphic designer or teacher friends for computer advice. Then OS X comes out and geeks flock to it - most as their third OS and they just wanted it b/c of the concept, but it was really good so it didn't take long to become their primary OS. And then they recommended it to morons who asked for advice.

If there was a Linux desktop environment that I could comfortably recommend to the computer illiterate then I would. Just because Gnome and Unity tried to dumb things down doesn't mean they're useful to anyone. That's the difference between Gnome and OS X's approach - OS X isn't designed to cater to morons, it's designed to cater to everyone.

Re:Too little too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211135)

Except they didn't do any of those things so if you actually have anything to back up your worthless assertions then present it. Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Re:Too little too late (5, Insightful)

captainpanic (1173915) | about 2 years ago | (#41211745)

They turned it from "Linux for Humans" to "Linux for morons".

I love them for that. No, I am not kidding.

But no jokes aside, Linux is not a single system. Ubuntu is for the complete n00bs (like myself), but there are still plenty of other Linux versions for the better-informed people like yourself. Stop complaining and shop around a bit. Most are easy to download.

Re:Too little too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211809)

I hate unity and gnome 3 yet that didn't stop me from using them and find my way around..
I respect what they are doing. Never forget this is open source , if u don't like it then change it and distribute it ;)

Re:Too little too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212555)

I have used Arch, Gentoo, Fedora, Debian, and some others, and I love Ubuntu 12.04 for this reason: it works!

I think one of the biggest problems in the community is rampant elitism. I could care less if you compiled your kernel from source, does your wireless work? Mine does!

Unity is different, and I've tried all the DEs and some WMs. If you don't like it, spend all of 23 seconds installing the desktop of your choice. No big deal.

Re:Too little too late (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212523)

Morons are people too, you moron.

Re:Too little too late (2)

drdaz (994457) | about 2 years ago | (#41212797)

I've been using Linux for the past 10 years or so. I choose Ubuntu as my Linux of choice.

How am I a moron for choosing an environment where most things work, out of the box, without me having to spend days fucking about? You can be sure that whatever I'm trying to actually achieve with the machine will take plenty time, so not having to configure everything about the OS is a distinct advantage.

My time is valuable to me, and Ubuntu saves me time. I fail to see how this is moronic.

Re:Too little too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212957)

/agree. I'm a Linux admin and at work take care of many flavors of Linux. At home I run Ubuntu for my torrent/media server. Why? Because Ubuntu is the main desktop distro out there and everything comes working out of the box. Now I admit I am hardly in the GUI now that I have got everything setup, but the time I have spent there isn't as bad as many people make it out to be........it sure beats windows metro ui..... lol

What up with the PR talk? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211061)

Yeah, I'd really like to synergize with the upcoming Gnome shell paradigm shift to leverage the richness of the polished experienceness-ness. Thanks, Slashdot, for letting me experience the bullshitness of experienced PR bullshitters with experience.

I don't get it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211361)

Gnome is an open source desktop environment, right? Most *Nix users agree Gnome got to be pretty good, useful for all the frontends, skins or faces or whatever they're called, designed to be used with Gnome.

Then the people who maintain Gnome decided to try to cram their ideas for reducing inefficiencies that they saw as overhead that were consequences of the user interface design, right down users' throats. However, removing features meant a steep learning curve, and a recalibration of gestures, etc., on the part of every user who chooses or is forced to use the new Gnome interface, just to be able to get back to where they were in terms of their 'productivity to time spent dicking around with the computer' ratio. Also you have to catch back up with what work you failed to get done WHILE you were learning the new interface.

It's rather like failing to asses how much money you waste trying to save it, by, for example, driving 10 miles out of his way, exclusively to fill your tank up with gasoline, at a cost savings of 3 cents per gallon. To add insult to injury, you realize the car's fuel tank was almost full already, so you might be able to get another quart of gasoline in before it leaks...

More importantly, however, my question I pose to all of "/." is this. Why does someone not simply take whatever was (by general consensus) the best version of Gnome before they started ripping features out of it, and then figure out which one to fork Gnome in to. Since it's FLOSS, (UIAVMM...) anything you really wanted could be build on top of an older version. Why are we still letting people so obviously out of touch with what users want or need, it's just ask for, or even demand

Re:I don't get it. (4, Insightful)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#41211421)

More importantly, however, my question I pose to all of "/." is this. Why does someone not simply take whatever was (by general consensus) the best version of Gnome before they started ripping features out of it, and then figure out which one to fork Gnome in to. Since it's FLOSS, (UIAVMM...) anything you really wanted could be build on top of an older version. Why are we still letting people so obviously out of touch with what users want or need, it's just ask for, or even demand

Here [wikipedia.org] you go! The issue with Mate being a first class citizen is multi-fold though. First of all, despite many people not liking Gnome 3, they don't want to use something they perceive as "old" so going with a Gnome 2 fork just doesn't sit well. Another issue is there were many architectural problems and inherent bugs in Gnome 2 that were solved in the new version. Do the people maintaining Mate have the chops and resources to address these issues? I think ultimately projects like Mate and Trinity (KDE 3.5) serve a great purpose to maintain a legacy environment for people that just won't have it any other way but it is very doubtful that the full force of the community will ever get behind something like this mainly for the reasons I outlined above.

Re:I don't get it. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211601)

It's rather like failing to asses

... or vaginas.

Hardcore Gnome Shell fans, seriously? (-1, Flamebait)

myxiplx (906307) | about 2 years ago | (#41211071)

Gnome Shell is junk, distos have deserted it in droves and users hate it. Since when did this train wreck of a GUI have hardcore fans?

Somebody needs to mod this article -1 Flamebait.

Re:Hardcore Gnome Shell fans, seriously? (1)

ciascu (1345429) | about 2 years ago | (#41211829)

Having enjoyed Ubuntu as a novel change from Slack and Debian, I was pretty unconvinced by Gnome Shell or Unity when they appeared, switched to Mint and, as Gnome 3 started to improve, switched to Fedora. Eventually, I released I missed the Ubuntu repos and familiarity of the Debian derivative structure, and returned to experimental Ubuntu Quantal.

The first thing I did was install Gnome Shell, as I still haven't warmed to Unity, and this has brought some interesting regressions. But I live with them (and have great, well-meaning intentions of delving into the code) because I now, for whatever reasons, really like Gnome Shell. In fact, having been introduced to Mac for the first time in the last few weeks, albeit a version a year or two out of date, I found the interface a wee bit clunky, not particularly intuitive and distinctly unslick for a moderately heavy terminal user. Nice enough, but knowing the alternatives, I wouldn't pay good money for it. That's fine, I'm not in the target demographic. Garage Band, however, I'm sold - those kind of experience applications I think Mac does fantastically, and I believe there are fantastic IDE/code versioning/project management GUIs, but that not the point here.

So I guess this article refers to me. I certainly don't remember jumping on any band wagons, in fact I'm pretty sure I ended up here by repeatedly jumping off them, and despite being decidedly unhardcore, I claim to be "excitingly different" on blind date forms, as the interwebs tell me preferring Gnome Shell to XFCE, Fluxbox or TTY makes me rarer than a unicorn in hen tooth pyjamas.

Re:Hardcore Gnome Shell fans, seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212991)

Ha! He who recommends flamebait mods ...

Ubuntu Gnome Remix... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211083)

You mean Linux Mint 13 with MATE? :p

Just as bad. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211117)

It's still Gnome 3, which is just as bad as Unity. Until Mate (fork of Gnome2) matures and gets picked up by a few distros I'm sticking with XFCE.

Re:Just as bad. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211137)

Unity in 12.04 is quite nice actually. You should try it sometime.

Wayland (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211123)

Have they yet renounced the ways of Wayland?

Re:Wayland (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211497)

nope.. just as society hasn't renounced the gays of gayland.

Re:Wayland (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41212407)

Wayland is in the plans of KDE, Unity and GNOME. Not that that'll stop them from running on X, for those that refuse to adapt Wayland. But if one wishes to go w/ X, one could always go w/ either the other DEs or WMs, or one could go w/ the BSDs, which currently have no Wayland plans (That may make sense for them, but I do wish PC-BSD adapted Wayland)

Sperate Distro nice but wasnt needed. (2)

detain (687995) | about 2 years ago | (#41211131)

You could quickly and easily already apt-get install a nice gnome setup pretty easily in Ubuntu so I think its a little silly they keep making new spinoff distros for different choices on what packages you want to install. I'd think it would be better for everyone if they kept it all as 1 distro with a few more options during the install process to choose what type of desktop you want, or if you want a serve,MythTV interface (mythbuntu) , or educational setup (edubuntu) . The torrent image is almost done downloading, I'm anxious to try it out and see how it is in a VPS.

Re:Sperate Distro nice but wasnt needed. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211153)

This isn't a spinoff. It's the same as Kubuntu, or Edubuntu, or Xubuntu, or whatever else. Looks like this one has a GNOME3 PPA, because those packages aren't yet in the real repos. But it still uses the real repos.

Re:Sperate Distro nice but wasnt needed. (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#41211159)

I think its a little silly they keep making new spinoff distros for different choices on what packages you want to install

I'm pretty sure the only officially supported version of *buntu at this point is Ubuntu. Everything else is done by the community not Canonical.

I hate articles like this... (1, Flamebait)

supersloshy (1273442) | about 2 years ago | (#41211165)

Whenever these kinds of articles are brought up, there is NO insightful discussion whatsoever. It's sickening, really. Instead of actually contributing to a logical discussion, every single comment on these kinds of articles says, more or less, "lol GNOME 3 sucks and only morons would like it because it's obviously trash; use a DE that actually makes sense". The problem with this kind of comment should be painfully obvious, but apparently it's not so simple with most of you. People say this in EVERY FREAKING COMMENT ON THESE ARTICLES! There is no originality whatsoever! Look, WE GET IT! You guys don't like GNOME 3! Just shut up then and leave the people who do like it alone! So what if some people enjoy GNOME 3? That's not your freaking problem! If they want to make an Ubuntu flavor that uses GNOME 3 by default then LET THEM FREAKING DO SO WITHOUT HAVING THEIR PERSONAL PREFERENCES QUESTIONED. Is this REALLY that hard? Is it really so bad to say something like "Oh well I hope this works out for them" or "I hope that GNOME 3 fans enjoy it"?

Seriously, you have a freaking right to dislike any DE you freaking want. I'm not contesting that. Just because I don't like some DEs doesn't mean that I should just go and yell at people who do like them all the time. That's not only rude but it's a waste of my breath. People like different things and you all should freaking realize that some people have different preferences than you do. I love GNOME 3 and I wish this project the best, and even if I didn't like GNOME 3 I'd still support its freaking existence because everybody has a right to support the software that they use. That's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF HAVING MULTIPLE DEs AND DISTRIBUTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Good gravy... Just shut up and leave us all alone. We don't need your flamebait and trollish comments.

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211209)

Life will get easier if you learn to handle criticism.

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211219)

What's the point of criticizing another person's preferences? There's no right or wrong here, and you're not going to make them like what you like.

Articles like this are filled with garbage comments, and nothing he said indicated that he can't handle criticism.

Re:I hate articles like this... (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about 2 years ago | (#41211545)

so that he might learn something? handling criticism is a skill that separates adults from the fast growing adult aged children segment. an adult would defend his position with logic and reason. a child would throw a tantrum and take everything personally.

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211239)

That you miguel?

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211255)

You mad? You mad.

This is on par with the parent, in terms of constructive dialogue.

Re:I hate articles like this... (1, Informative)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#41211261)

I'm a big fan of Unity and I see it get slagged off all the time typically by people using outdated or incorrect information. If I'm in the mood I just calmly respond explaining what I like about Unity and talking up some of its features that might go unnoticed to a user that hasn't given it much time. I rarely get flamed and often the post gets modded up enhancing the visibility of a Unity "success story". As far as Gnome 3 goes, I've tried it a few times and there are some things I like including Mutter and a lot of the old Gnome 2 bugs having been fixed. Other than that, I don't really see a whole lot. The Gnome team removed a lot of functionality that was present in Gnome 2 yet somehow didn't really make the DE any easier to use AFAICT. Nor do I see any productivity improvements like I get with, i.e., the HUD in Unity. But I'm always up for embracing something better so my question to you as a Gnome 3 advocate is this: what am I missing that might win me over?

Re:I hate articles like this... (1)

jbolden (176878) | about 2 years ago | (#41212723)

Mostly if you are using Gnome 3 on Gnome 2 style hardware it might very well be a downgrade. Where Gnome 3 will shine is in more versatile form factors. Other than that:

1) Integrated messaging and notifications.
2) Much better handling of virtual desktops.

Is about it.

Re:I hate articles like this... (1)

Nursie (632944) | about 2 years ago | (#41212979)

Integrated messaging and notifications if you use our approved messaging client

And most folks seem to think the virtual desktop stuff is actually far, far worse.

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211281)

I agree with you 100%. But you overuse the term 'freaking'.

Re:I hate articles like this... (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about 2 years ago | (#41211521)

ok so your argument boils down to yet another "only tolerate positivity/censor everything else" post. There's a lot of that going around these days. Anyway, why should the critics be silent? Sorry to ruin your day, but adult human beings realized that the world isn't limited to simple positive/negative dichotomies by the time they're 9.

You sound like that 'leave britney aloonuhhh' guy/girl/mantywaist....person.

Re:I hate articles like this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211607)

Whenever these kinds of articles are brought up, there is NO insightful discussion whatsoever. It's sickening, really. Instead of actually contributing to a logical discussion, every single comment on these kinds of articles says, more or less, "lol GNOME 3 sucks and only morons would like it because it's obviously trash; use a DE that actually makes sense". The problem with this kind of comment should be painfully obvious, but apparently it's not so simple with most of you. People say this in EVERY FREAKING COMMENT ON THESE ARTICLES! There is no originality whatsoever! Look, WE GET IT! You guys don't like GNOME 3! Just shut up then and leave the people who do like it alone! So what if some people enjoy GNOME 3? That's not your freaking problem! If they want to make an Ubuntu flavor that uses GNOME 3 by default then LET THEM FREAKING DO SO WITHOUT HAVING THEIR PERSONAL PREFERENCES QUESTIONED. Is this REALLY that hard? Is it really so bad to say something like "Oh well I hope this works out for them" or "I hope that GNOME 3 fans enjoy it"?

Seriously, you have a freaking right to dislike any DE you freaking want. I'm not contesting that. Just because I don't like some DEs doesn't mean that I should just go and yell at people who do like them all the time. That's not only rude but it's a waste of my breath. People like different things and you all should freaking realize that some people have different preferences than you do. I love GNOME 3 and I wish this project the best, and even if I didn't like GNOME 3 I'd still support its freaking existence because everybody has a right to support the software that they use. That's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF HAVING MULTIPLE DEs AND DISTRIBUTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Good gravy... Just shut up and leave us all alone. We don't need your flamebait and trollish comments.

I don't give a shit about Gnome. What I care about is that a number of distros are pushing Gnome 3 down our throats. And even worse is the state of GIMP because of all the brain dead decisions being taken by you Gnome-tards that develop Gnome 3. Insofar as Gnome 3 is killing a number of high profile GTK applications, yeah my anger is directed towards you and all those idiot developers (or should I say designers) working on that cesspool of a DE. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Now I'll leave you alone.

Re:I hate articles like this... (2, Interesting)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 2 years ago | (#41212055)

Whenever these kinds of articles are brought up, there is NO insightful discussion whatsoever. It's sickening, really. Instead of actually contributing to a logical discussion, every single comment on these kinds of articles says, more or less, "lol GNOME 3 sucks and only morons would like it because it's obviously trash; use a DE that actually makes sense". The problem with this kind of comment should be painfully obvious, but apparently it's not so simple with most of you. People say this in EVERY FREAKING COMMENT ON THESE ARTICLES! There is no originality whatsoever! Look, WE GET IT! You guys don't like GNOME 3! Just shut up then and leave the people who do like it alone!

It's not about you, it's about Gnome. I'm glad you like Gnome 3. I don't. It removed too many capabilities that I depended on all day every day, and not all of them have well-known ways to get them back. Or, from what I can tell in some cases, any way to get them back.

If Gnome 3 had been an alternative Gnome, or an option to something that preserved the capabilities of Gnome 2, I wouldn't care, but it was made the default desktop for Fedora 17. It took me from a cluttered but functional desktop to a clean desktop that did virtually nothing except show me what my social networking friends were up to (I don't HAVE friends!) and demolish my working space every time I overshot the mouse into a corner.

The developers of Gnome over the years have shown a consistent contempt for a large part - if not the actual majority of their users. And, since they refuse to listen on their own channels, the howling mobs have to make their voices heard where they can. Here, for instance. Besides, if all this forum offered was fulsome praise for Gnome 3, that would be too much like validation of something a lot of us don't consider valid.

If you enjoy Gnome 3, I'm happy for you, and your voice in the matter is just as valid as anyone else's. But we want the conversation to be democratic, and that means dissent as well. Be glad that there is dissent. Too much of today's discussion is conducted in echo chambers.

Re:I hate articles like this... (1)

jbolden (176878) | about 2 years ago | (#41212765)

I happen to like Gnome 3 as well. On the other hand the Gnome community quite aggressively aimed to be the standard Linux desktop, not some obscure piece of software. Obscure software has the right to do what it wants. Public utilities have an obligation towards the public good. They were the ones that wanted this degree of focus. And as the standard desktop for free software they then decided on a development path that alienated their most important distributer (Canonical) technical directions that upset freedesktop project, and alienated their user base.

I'd like it if the discussion of Gnome 3 were a bit more mature. But your rant about personal preferences is out of place. The issues with Gnome 3 were not about personal preference. They are by their very nature political.

What's the point of this coverage? (2)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211241)

I mean, this is just another flavor of 'buntu. Slashdot doesn't cover them all, and this one is simply Gnome 3; it's not a reversion to the 2.x world. So, what's the hook? Why is this project particularly newsworthy?

Time to upgrade to this (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211279)

Without [6809.org.uk] the stupid rounded corners, oversized borders, transparency crap, fancy gpu and cpu hogging bullshit of Gnome and KDE. No stupid compositors that require ridiculous effects that are recipe for X crashes and stalls... Run it with a straight Nvidia OpenGL driver and Google Earth will actually run smokin' 3D flight sim even on my old P4 with a really old Gforce 256 meg AGP card. Dump pulse audio and just use good old alsamixer, and every bit of software that I want to run like VLC, Audacity, Handbrake...and the likes runs just fine without relying on stupid video compositors that hog cpu and gpu cycles. X has come a long way and to clobber it with the same crap that one would expect from a Windows PC is just plain stupid. On good hardware the speed of running a slimmed down DE is really worth it and I feel is the real future of Linux.

I try the same thing with Gnome or KDE on the same hardware and poof nothing but dog squats and rapid crash restore action on the screen.

I am thinking of doing a series of setup vids and instructional vids on how to make a killer cheap Linux box that will do Citrix, GoogleEarth, Flash, all office document formats, play bluerays and all other media and do it faster than any other system in existance.

Linux can be the fastest OS ...period.... if you do your setup right and leave the fancy effects to the programs not the FRIGGING DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT!

Don't get me wrong Gnome and KDE have their good points but good video performance and speed is not one of them they have become far to complex and fail at the basic task of doing what the user requests in an unobtrusive manner.

Sorry ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211341)

I've already gone back to Debian and I can find no reason to return to Ubuntu. I left partially because Unity was a steaming pile of horse manure for desktops, and partially because of the arrogance of Canonical (or, more correctly, that nutjob Shuttleworth) in plain dismissing all the criticism.

No I think I'll stick with Debian from now on. To be honest, I can't really see what Ubuntu adds to the base release other than catering to the great unwashed :-)

Re:Sorry ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211525)

You are an idiot.

I love the smell of a flamebait in the morning (1, Redundant)

21mhz (443080) | about 2 years ago | (#41211397)

Nice, a cheery article worded like an advertisement, for all the GNOME 3 haters on Slashdot to get on their favorite horse and start spewing rage.

Yes, I'm OK with GNOME 3. No, I don't care what's going on with Ubuntu these days. Canonical's increasing preference for NIH-motivated development means there are less people funded by them to fix real problems.

Re:I love the smell of a flamebait in the morning (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about 2 years ago | (#41211555)

don't forget the people who claim they don't care, but still post for the chance to label any criticism as 'hate.'

GNOME Shell (-1, Troll)

Kevin Fishburne (1296859) | about 2 years ago | (#41211417)

Take your Shell, roll it into a tube, and stick it up your ass.

Bin gnome altogether (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211469)

Who cares ?

The GNOME developers keep giving users the finger. GNOME should be consigned to the wastebin of history. Irrelevant, unusable crap.

Re:Bin gnome altogether (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211623)

Who cares ?

The GNOME developers keep giving users the finger. GNOME should be consigned to the wastebin of history. Irrelevant, unusable crap.

I agree, unfortunately if Gnome goes so do a number of very high profile applications not the least of which is Gimp. I like Gimp (it was one of the reasons I started using linux many years ago in the late nineties), I use it on windows and linux and I certainly don't want to replace it with a warez version of photoshop or some light photo editing software.

I seriously don't see the Gimp developers ever porting that software over Qt or something that doesn't depend on GTK/Gnome. A real pity.

Re:Bin gnome altogether (2)

DrXym (126579) | about 2 years ago | (#41212423)

GNOME 3 is eminently usable. Whether it is configurable enough for power users is another matter entirely.

Ubuntu is loosing the contact with user base (4, Insightful)

aglider (2435074) | about 2 years ago | (#41211575)

This is, in my opinion, the reason why Ubuntu will die.
They did the same when they dropped a working KDE 3.5 in favour of an unusable KDE 4.
KDE chose to move to v4, but this doesn't mean that Ubuntu needed to follow.
The same applies to GNOME with the Unity twist.

The biggest value for Ubuntu/Canonical is the user base. Make them angry to loose both them and your value.
Say after me: I'll listen to the user base!

Re:Ubuntu is loosing the contact with user base (1)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | about 2 years ago | (#41211737)

This is, in my opinion, the reason why Ubuntu will die.

You can say that as often as you want, the "I like this because it's shiny" userbase is bigger then the "I want to get work done so how do I disable this shit?" userbase. We* are the niche, not the others. See iPhone/iPad and Android.

* "We" as in: Mate, Gnome2, KDE3, Xfce, bare-window-manager users. Personally I recommend Sawfish and Mate. I also like KDE4 to a certain extend, good ideas, but too much shiny-stuff.

Re:Ubuntu is loosing the contact with user base (1)

aglider (2435074) | about 2 years ago | (#41211783)

I am not arguing about the desktop/window manager of your choice. You can install whichever you like.
But Ubuntu/Canonical took a number of questionable decisions and kept them despite the complaints.

KDE4, as of now, is quite usable and stable. The way I use it is very similar to KDE v3 as I have disabled all the fancy stuff.
I am not using KDE v3 (or trinity) because it'd be too much work to have it working.
Finally, I'm considering a switch to Awesome which is ... aehm ... awesome!

Re:Ubuntu is loosing the contact with user base (1)

M1FCJ (586251) | about 2 years ago | (#41212259)

I love KDE, I'm using KDE4 right now but the first KDE 4.0 implementations on all distros sucked so bad, I had to go somewhere else until it got fixed. That was a big mistake which alienated a lot of people. Unfortunately when someone mentions KDE4, most still remember KDE4.0.

Re:Ubuntu is loosing the contact with user base (1)

macraig (621737) | about 2 years ago | (#41212153)

Linux developers don't listen to their "user base". Instead they listen to their "muse"... which is apparently a six-foot-tall invisible rabbit named Harvey (or Anthony, for you Doc Martin fans).

Why I switched to XFCE (3, Insightful)

aaaaaaargh! (1150173) | about 2 years ago | (#41211781)

I'm using Ubuntu as a desktop environment for daily work for years now and switched to XFCE recently. The reasons are quite simple, people know them already, but allow me to reiterate them infinitely:


10 PRINT "I want a traditional, unobtrousive desktop environment ('desktop metaphor') with hidable and freely configurable panels and some way to define command shortcuts."
20 PRINT "I also strongly prefer normal windows with minimal, user-definable decoration, ordinary menus (on the top of windows), and a fast file browser."
30 GOTO 10

All of this has existed for a long time and there was no reason to change it. I use whatever session/window manager gives the above features to me. There are plenty of choices besides Unity and Gnome 3, e.g. XFCE works fine for me. Sorry if that offends Gnome 3 or Unity developers for some odd reason.

Re:Why I switched to XFCE (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211825)

and debian's recent choice to make XFCE default, proves you're not really alone :) some might even say debian is mainstream for old folks who like a 'conservative' nix

stability >> all else

Re:Why I switched to XFCE (1)

siddesu (698447) | about 2 years ago | (#41212009)

As a fellow xfce user let me retort that the language you chose to reiterate your preferences make them sound kind of lightweight. :)

Re:Why I switched to XFCE (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#41212275)

Sorry, but you'll have to translate that into C# before the Gnome developers will understand it.

sudo apt-get install gnome (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41211795)

I ran that command in Ubuntu Precise a while ago, and, since then, I'm a happy camper.

I don't have much beef against Unity, it's just that on low-spec machines or in a VM, Unity 2D is not snappy enough compared to the "no effects" version of Gnome, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a 2D version.

I am still impressed at how easy it was to switch to Gnome, with no side-effect or additional tweaking required.

Time for a Business Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41212203)

Is it time to build a Business desktop that all can converge on?

Business wants predictability, and consistency and shivers with anticipation at new rollouts (but in a bad way).

Imagine 10,000 user workforce and how to manage this WM vs that WM when its changing to fast.

Why always the ISOs? (3, Interesting)

Richard_J_N (631241) | about 2 years ago | (#41212567)

There are very very many distros out there that exist as "respins" or "custom editions" which are basically debian + package-selection. For example, dyne:bolic, musix, ubuntu studio, kubuntu, ubuntu-gnome-remix. Why aren't they just published as: base-distro + package-repository + taskel (list of packages to apt-get) +
settings to change + (optionally) list of packages to remove?

I've never understood this - it hugely increases the maintainer workload, makes it harder to migrate (need to reinstall), makes it harder to try out, makes it harder to have a mixed system, and make it a real problem if the distro maintainer quits.

Perhaps someone can explain this to me, because I am truly puzzled.

Aside: yes, I recognise the advantage of, say, xubuntu (as a more minimal base-system), and I know that Kubuntu can be installed with "apt-get install kubuntu-desktop" - but why do most systems insist on clean-install from ISO as the primary (sometimes only) way to install them?

Re:Why always the ISOs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41213263)

Huh? Almost all distros that I know of have some form of netboot install method that does exactly what you describe. None of them "insist" on it.

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