Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

US House STEM Visa Bill Fails

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the go-back-home dept.

Government 133

dcblogs writes "A Republican-led effort to issue up to 55,000 STEM visas a year to students who earn advanced degrees at U.S. universities was defeated in a House vote. It needed a two-thirds vote, or about 290 ayes, for approval. Its supporters came up short, 257 to 158. Both parties support green cards for science, technology, engineering and math advanced degree grads, but can't agree on legislation. U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY), who has introduced his own STEM bill, urged House leaders to seek new negotiations: 'A bipartisan compromise can easily be ready for the lame duck session. There is too broad a consensus in favor of this policy to settle for gridlock.'"

cancel ×

133 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

H1B (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409389)

Did they exhaust the H1B limit already?

Re:H1B (1)

firex726 (1188453) | about 2 years ago | (#41410925)

I heard H1B's go pretty fast, often times companies will gobble the vast majority up.

Why 2/3 ... (2)

schwit1 (797399) | about 2 years ago | (#41409403)

The bill was brought up under a procedure that limits debate and doesn't allow amendments but requires a two-thirds majority for passage.

Re:Why 2/3 ... (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41411521)

How does that happen? Is that a provision of how the bill was introduced? Does someone raise a motion?

Im a little ignorant of how these sorts of things happen, and not exactly sure what to google-- what is this procedure called?

Gridlock is real (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409411)

If they cant agree on something as trivial as this, it appears that stopping this freight train before reaching fiscal cliff is a very real impossibility.

Re:Gridlock is real (5, Insightful)

flyingsquid (813711) | about 2 years ago | (#41409581)

If they cant agree on something as trivial as this, it appears that stopping this freight train before reaching fiscal cliff is a very real impossibility.

Perhaps. But before people go blaming Congress for all the problems with government, consider that congressmen, for the most part, are just doing whatever it takes to get re-elected. The Tea Partiers, for example, were elected on the promise that they wouldn't compromise, wouldn't work with the other side, and wouldn't let the Democrats and Obama ever accomplish anything. And they've lived up to those promises.

The American people are as much to blame as anyone. We constantly demonize the other side and our politics are increasingly polarized, we have special TV programs and web sites that reflect our own biased worldview back at us, and we elect people based on this worldview. Then we act surprised and disappointed when the people we elect can't ever get any legislation passed.

Re:Gridlock is real (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409999)

Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?

Re:Gridlock is real (4, Insightful)

Baloroth (2370816) | about 2 years ago | (#41410443)

Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?

Well, that is the opposite of what we generally expect them to do.

Re:Gridlock is real (0)

Bigby (659157) | about 2 years ago | (#41410889)

No. I don't expect government to keep voting to spend more money. If that stops, then YEAH!

Re:Gridlock is real (2, Insightful)

JackieBrown (987087) | about 2 years ago | (#41410045)

Well, when the other side shows you nothing but disdain and resorts to constant name calling (tea baggers) for 3 years, what compromises do you expect to be reached? Honestly, the only compromise the democrats seem willing to do is with the more "conservative" democrats.

Did You See the Daily Show? (5, Insightful)

mx+b (2078162) | about 2 years ago | (#41411219)

The Daily Show the other night had a funny little piece where they talked to republicans and democrats at the national conventions to ask them how to overcome gridlock. It results in an orgy of insults directed at the other party, from both sides, that amused me pretty well.

I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously, but having family spread out between both parties, I can say it was fairly accurate in my experience. Both sides want to say that the world would be a magical fairy land if only the other side wasn't made up of complete jackasses that are only out to fuck up the plans of the other party.

In sum: yes, Tea Party has been made fun of it. But how did the Tea Party start? There's a constant bashing of Obama as a socialist and democrats as wanting to propogate a lazy welfare state. O-bum-a, Commrade Obama, I've heard it all. Name calling is on both sides, and is the main problem with our gridlock. There are groups in each party that are so desperately out to smear the other side that we never get a real debate. Personally, I do not agree with much of what the republican platform says this time around, but there is an important difference between not agreeing and going out of my way to insult people of the other party. I am sure that the majority of common people in each party (many politicians excluded) absolutely mean well for the country, and believe their platform really will be best. No secret agenda to give money to lazy welfare queens, or give tax breaks to rich people. The majority of voters aren't thinking that; they are thinking, what plan seems best to get the country going again?

When the everyday people recognize this, that just because the other approximately half of the country doesn't vote the same as you DOES NOT mean they are unpatriotic jackasses out to ruin the country, then perhaps we can get somewhere. But this is going to have to be a team effort from both parties. And I am sad to say that the current older generations of the country seem to prefer the gridlock and blame, or at least are stuck in this idea that "that's the way it is". I hope this will change with the younger generations as they start taking over congressional seats.

Re:Did You See the Daily Show? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411389)

How did the Tea Party start? By the "Rant Heard 'Round the World", by Rick Santelli.

But the underpinings were there, even before Obama. Read up on the "Porkbusters" project, which was trying to cut down on all the pork and waste in congress while Bush was in office.

Re:Did You See the Daily Show? (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412067)

I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously,

Despite the comedy nature and Jon Stewart's heavy left-leaning, hes a pretty insightful dude. Ive heard hes moderately popular because of that, in fact.

Re:Gridlock is real (1, Insightful)

interkin3tic (1469267) | about 2 years ago | (#41410289)

The American people are as much to blame as anyone.

Oh, don't worry: I hold them in even lower estimation than anyone elected to congress. Thing is I have no way of controlling them or voting them out. A hoard of ignorant fellow voters is a constant, the elected on the other hand can sometimes be changed for the better.

Re:Gridlock is real (2)

interkin3tic (1469267) | about 2 years ago | (#41410911)

Er... that should be "horde." Probably a sign from the universe that I should re-evaluate whether or not I'm part of the ignorant voters...

Re:Gridlock is real (2)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 2 years ago | (#41411703)

Er... that should be "horde." Probably a sign from the universe that I should re-evaluate whether or not I'm part of the ignorant voters...

Oh, I don't know, isn't hoarding ignorant voters more commonly referred to as "playing to the base"?

Re:Gridlock is real (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410761)

The tea party was elected to stop spending. I blame Obama for the lack of compromise. You can't compromise with someone who goes on prime time television and calls you "extreme" and "unAmerican." Obama did that. Not the republicans.

Re:Gridlock is real (0)

Gilmoure (18428) | about 2 years ago | (#41410781)

And all those philli-busters he did as well! Why does he hate merkins?!!!

Re:Gridlock is real (2)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41411551)

Trent Lott in an NPR interview once said that the advent of always on media coverage of politics was one of the best, and worst, things to happen to our political system.

(Best because yay transparency, worst because it polarizes the two sides: reaching across the aisle now risks branding you as a traitor / RINO / "fake democrat" / whatever else)

Re:Gridlock is real (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409583)

I came to that conclusion a few months ago, but yeah. We're about to get sequesterated; get your shit ready. AAA credit rating will be a distant memory, like $1/gallon gasoline.

Re:Gridlock is real (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412107)

We dont have an AAA rating.

Re:Gridlock is real (1)

Shavano (2541114) | about 2 years ago | (#41409633)

Passing a regular tax and or spending bill in the lame duck session is actually a good deal easier than passing a bill with any controversial provision in a pre-election session under no-debate, no-amendments 2/3 majority to pass rules. And there's no big incentive to get any kind of a visa bill passed right now. Seriously, how many of their constituents does this affect in the near term? NONE. So the bill was all about political maneuvering before the election so Rs could attempt to make a case that DS are anti student or anti business.

Re:Gridlock is real (3, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | about 2 years ago | (#41409747)

This is trivial?
Bringing cheap workers to replace the only jobs not yet outsourced is a trivial thing?

Chuck Bandwagon Schumer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409417)

Mr Schumer name should never be printed without a reference to Bandwagon, unless it is used with the term Carpetbagger.

Re:Chuck Bandwagon Schumer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409607)

unless it is used with the term Carpetbagger.
 
Are you sure he's not a scallywag? Come on now.

Wow! (4, Interesting)

Alex Belits (437) | about 2 years ago | (#41409449)

So dumb, they can't pass a law that allows smart people to stay in their country WHEN BOTH THEY AND THOSE PEOPLE STILL WANT TO STAY.

Re:Wow! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409629)

Your post doesn't make sense. If these people are choosing the US over the 17 nations that are freer [freetheworld.com] , then by definition, they aren't smart.

Re:Wow! (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about 2 years ago | (#41409777)

Your website makes no sense. Who wants to be "free" if you have to live in Alberta?

It backwards rationalizes everything. I would far rather have an educated society than $10 off my property taxes.

Re:Wow! (1)

nedlohs (1335013) | about 2 years ago | (#41410777)

Smart people don't usually have just one metric that they blindly follow, and instead take other things into consideration also.

STEM Visas being held hostage (4, Insightful)

Stirling Newberry (848268) | about 2 years ago | (#41409457)

The argument is over the green card lottery, Republicans want to end it, the Democrats do not. About 5.5% of all Green Cards are issued based on the lottery. Both Democrats and Republicans want to issue the 55,000 visas, which are targeted at lowering wages of college graduates. So this gridlock is, for the time being, good for most readers of this site.

Not really (5, Insightful)

voss (52565) | about 2 years ago | (#41409523)

When smart people with the means to immigrate come to this country Its a benefit to us even to American smart people. The idea
that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models. Immigration to the US goes down when unemployment goes up.

I want you techies to view it this way. When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.

More visas now= generations of asian and eurasian hotties for your grandsons(or granddaughters...I support equal rights for lgbt folks)

Re:Not really (4, Informative)

Stirling Newberry (848268) | about 2 years ago | (#41409579)

Your statement is categorically incorrect. STEM visas are employment based, and specifically designed to be better versions of the H1-B Visa, that is, guest worker type employment.

Immigration doesn't have to depress wages, just as Free Trade doesn't have to, but that is what it is being designed to do. The Democratic bill is marginally better in that it at least as a review of the effects of STEM visas.

Re:Not really (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411541)

These "STEM visas" are green cards, which allow these people to stay permanently in the US. Although employment is needed for sponsor, they are in no way guest-worker type.

Re:Not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409615)

Good post...insightful and humorous!

Re:Not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409789)

I'm not having kids. Basic supply and demand: If there is more supply, the cost goes down. More labor supply = cheaper labor. Meanwhile there are qualified Americans without jobs, who don't have to compete with someone who has to work extra hard because he gets sent back to China if he gets fired.

Re:Not really (1, Insightful)

lorenlal (164133) | about 2 years ago | (#41410169)

First off... I applaud you sir. This post made my morning that much better. Thank you.

Secondly, with the immigration of STEM folks, I'd be willing to bet that many of these workers will demand comparable wages, because they know what the market is offering and there is a cost of living here to do those jobs. We can look at short term costs, and experience, and say that there are some otherwise perfectly capable geeks here who are still looking for jobs... And there are. The thing is... STEM unemployment as of June is 4.7% (assuming college degree, YMMV), which is pretty darn near what those economic models call "full employment." It sounds to me like the benefit of bringing in more geeks (like having a more educated society, more demand for arts, spending power, and those eurasian hotties on the horizon) would do more help for the economy than harm.

I might be biased too though... After all... parent did put forth a convincing argument.

Re:Not really (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41412197)

4.7% unemployment rate also includes the tens of thousands of us that are in "alternative" careers like working at the Gap [nypost.com] . There is lower unemployment for programmers. Take them out of the STEM group and the un/underemployment rate is deep into the double digits. Defeat of this bill is an extremely good thing. We already have tens of thousands of STEM workers with advanced degrees and years of experience who are long term unemployed. We need instead the crafting of bills to deport excess foreign STEM workers and more importantly bills to strictly limit the gross overproduction of STEM graduates by our universities. That and jobs training bills since an advanced degree in science does not put you on a track to gainful employment. Research (public and private) has imploded. Teachers are in year five or so of what is essentially a hiring freeze. Patent law is splitting at the seams with broke and desperate JDs...and PhD/JDs that flooded law school in the late 2000's when pharma collapsed.

Face it: yesterday's underwater basket weaving degree is today's science Ph.D. Now you'll excuse me as I must go off to work. The lunch rush is starting soon and I am Dr. Burgerflipper, Ph.D.

Re:Not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410389)

When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.

Then you'd best brush up on your martial arts, because that idea is going to leave hordes of Asian men with no outlets for their sexual frustration except violence.

Re:Not really (0)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about 2 years ago | (#41410491)

Better hurry up you'll be late for your clan meeting....

Re:Not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411397)

The idea that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models.

This doesn't matter. If you look at the big picture, what we see is that Republicans are committed to shaping federal policy to serve the interest of economic planning, over the interest of liberty. Now that Republicans are socialists, and already to the left of Democrats, two things emerge in the future:

  1. In due time the specifics of the socialist models that they use, can be refined and shaped and corrected. Republicans can shift to allowing immigration, without compromising their leftist leanings.
  2. By leaving an unserved gap for conservative policies, some new party for conservatives can emerge. I know there are many pessimists here, but I think that on average, the chances that a random new party would be anything near as insane as Republicans, is fairly small. With the Republicans out of the way, things can get better (whether you hold a right or left view, is irrelevant -- either way, regardless of your political leanings, loss of Republicans is a good thing). Conservatives (as opposed to Republicans) can win, can compromise, and can lose gracefully -- and in all three cases still serve their constituents. Everyone wins, when the day comes that American conservatives back a new party.

All we need now, is for the kinds of people who have been voting for Republicans, so see through the (sometimes) conservative speechs to the actual policies they implement and the way they vote on bills. GWB helped immensely with this as a ruling president, and now even the 2012 Republican contender is giving speeches where he stresses using government to increase jobs. Whether his policies would serve that socialist goal doesn't matter; the wonderful news is the he's "out of the closet" even in campaign speeches.

Long term, after the Republicans have faded away, there's no reason we can't have sane immigration policies. You just have to endure some crazy shit for a decade or two, so that the people can become informed about how the once-conservative-labelled party acts. Big deal. Let this blossom; it's for the best.

And maybe a decade or two after that the Democrats will get outed too. But that's really long term...

Re:Not really (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411773)

WTF man, I am black. Am I fucking invisible or what??

Re:Not really (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41412007)

I disagree that this benefits America or Americans. I think it further reduces wages and increases competition in a very small field, which de-incentivizes Americans, but is still attractive to Asians who still see it as a step up. The reality is we have too MANY techies, mostly operating beneath their potential because what we actually need are a large number of technologically educated MBAs, an even larger number of technicians but a very small number of STEM types.

But trade schools in the US are sneered upon, and anyone without a college degree is treated like shit, so no one wants that. MBA types know better than to get drawn into the mud of having to produce measurable results for a living. So we try to hire a bunch of STEM types we don't need, slap an "engineer" label on them and give them a supply chain to manage or an asian boardhaus to oversee. Most people hate that passionately and compete bitterly for the very few good engineering jobs that are actually available (and usually found by word of mouth), and end up regretting their degree and steering their children into other professions.

Issuing visas & H1Bs doesn't help us, it just makes the market more depressing. This bill and the democrat version SHOULD fail as it's just another example of real life class warfare being waged against us (by BOTH parties, not just the one we usually blame). The irony that the system was working for us when the individuals involved were trying so hard to work against us makes me smile.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (5, Insightful)

kenj0418 (230916) | about 2 years ago | (#41409577)

I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage. But I'd rather be competing against 55,000 green card holders, who can negotiate fairly with their employers for a competitive wage than completing against 55,000 H1B workers who are (mostly) tied to a single employer and have a significant disadvantage in any salary/etc. negotiation.

So does one of the parties want to eliminate/reduce the H1B visas and replace them with green cards? Because if so, then I support them on this.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (5, Insightful)

flyingsquid (813711) | about 2 years ago | (#41409705)

I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage.

That's not necessarily the case. You're assuming that with more people, everyone has to get a smaller slice of the pie. But the size of the pie isn't fixed. People willing to uproot themselves and their families to go halfway around the world tend to be motivated and they tend to be risk-takers. That means they start businesses at a much higher rate than native-born Americans. A recent study found that immigrants are 13% of the population, but 18% of the small business owners. They employed $4.7 million people in 2007. Some of the companies founded by immigrants become big companies as well... Sergei Brin, who was born in the USSR, founded this thing called Google you may have heard of. Immigrants are innovators as well- think of Tesla, Einstein, von Braun. So when you recruit the best and brightest the world has to offer, the technologies and companies these people found will make the economy stronger, and that will increase the number and quality of jobs.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409821)

The size of the pie isn't fixed, but it is relatively inelastic. Treating it as though it is fixed is, in fact, a pretty good approximation of reality.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (3, Insightful)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about 2 years ago | (#41410545)

Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that these people will start businesses. Most of these people will work for existing corporations, not start their own businesses. Thus they will be reducing the number of jobs not increasing them.

The other obvious problem; THEY'RE VISAS! Once the visa expires they have to leave the country.

Moron.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412217)

Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that these people will start businesses. Most of these people will work for existing corporations, not start their own businesses. Thus they will be reducing the number of jobs not increasing them.

Thats not necessarily true. If the companies are helped to succeed by their employees, more jobs tend to be created by those companies.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410879)

If people want to move to the US to start businesses, they don't need a special STEM visa to compete with Americans in specific industries.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (1)

Cajun Hell (725246) | about 2 years ago | (#41411461)

So when you recruit the best and brightest the world has to offer, the technologies and companies these people found will make the economy stronger, and that will increase the number and quality of jobs

You free-market conservatives make a strong case for growth economies, but my mommy and daddy said that if I do as you say and start voting against the Republicans, baby Jesus will cry.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412233)

Republicans dont believe in growth economies? News to me.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (3, Informative)

Rockoon (1252108) | about 2 years ago | (#41409617)

I think the Republican idea is that the Diversity Lottery is based on bad reasoning to begin with.

The Diversity Lottery gives priority to people from countries that have low rates of immigration to the U.S.

Forget about the "intent" of this lottery for a moment and instead consider what it actually does.. it gives priority to someone from France over someone from Mexico or China, and its simply because fewer people from France want to come and work here. Mexicans and Chinese are not allowed in the Diversity Lottery because more than 50,000 of each have immigrated in the past 5 years, a statistic that disallows them from even entering the lottery.

Here is the list of countries ineligible for DV2013 (according to Wikipedia):

Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, China (mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.

This new law would re-target the Diversity Visa's to give priority to people with advanced degrees, instead of to people from the 'right' country. What do Democrats have against people from the above listed countries? That is, essentially, what they are arguing.. that something is wrong with those people.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409807)

No, they're arguing that those people already get a disproportionate share of the non-DV green cards.

I mean, I don't think it's great reasoning either, but try not to deliberately misrepresent the other side of the argument; it actually hurts your side.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | about 2 years ago | (#41410217)

I mean, I don't think it's great reasoning either, but try not to deliberately misrepresent the other side of the argument; it actually hurts your side.

Are you suggesting that its wrong to call a political party a bunch of racist bigots just because they support a policy that disproportionately effects minorities? Thats not what Democrats told me. [google.com]

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410449)

Are you suggesting that its wrong to call a political party,

No, let me repeat what he said because you seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

they're arguing that those people already get a disproportionate share of the non-DV green cards

And just FYI, "minority" doesn't mean "non-white". In the US, being French makes you a minority. In some parts of the US, only the most hardened con artist can call a Mexican a minority and keep a straight face.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41412921)

Argument fail.

Top Countries using DV (1)

mystikkman (1487801) | about 2 years ago | (#41410935)

From http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win-immigration-us-visa-lottery-winners [nationmaster.com]

  Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount
  # 1 Nigeria: 7,145 US visa lottery winners
  # 2 Ghana: 7,040 US visa lottery winners
  # 3 Ethiopia: 6,353 US visa lottery winners
  # 4 Kenya: 5,721 US visa lottery winners
  # 5 Poland: 5,467 US visa lottery winners
  # 6 Bangladesh: 5,126 US visa lottery winners
  # 7 Morocco: 5,069 US visa lottery winners
  # 8 Ukraine: 4,494 US visa lottery winners
  # 9 Nepal: 4,259 US visa lottery winners
  # 10 Egypt: 4,189 US visa lottery winners

Re:Top Countries using DV (0)

recoiledsnake (879048) | about 2 years ago | (#41411101)

Does anyone what these people do after coming to the US? Are they instantly eligible for food stamps, social security benefits, medicare/medicaid, unemployment etc. ?

Re:Top Countries using DV (1)

Tenebrousedge (1226584) | about 2 years ago | (#41412539)

I hope so. I could have used those things immediately when I lived abroad. You start contributing to the economy immediately. That sort of thing encourages people to stick around, and not just any people -- it takes some determination, intelligence, and luck to move to a different country.

I've had the shoe on the other foot. You should try it sometime. Things look very different.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (3, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 2 years ago | (#41410085)

the 55,000 visas, which are targeted at lowering wages of college graduates.

See, those college grads are the last segment of society wherein somebody who comes from a lower-class family can make it into solidly middle-class or better category.

The ultimate goal of our overlords is to end social mobility.]

A year before Ronald Reagan took office, the United States was #1 in the world in social mobility, meaning the possibility that a person born in one class could move up in his lifetime. Today, the United States is #31 among OECD nations.

Yes, our overlords want to lower the wages of college grads. When people from lower classes achieve social mobility, they gain political power. When that happens, it's like someone dropped a turd in the overlords' infinity swimming pool.

Ronald Reagan changed America. Yes he did. And now, if you actually work for a living, you are either fucked or about to be fucked. Because we've had 30+ years of uninterrupted Reagan economic policies.

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412143)

Seems to me-- ignorant, non-elected individual that I am-- that the thing to do would be to pass the thing everyone agrees upon (so as not to continue pissing off the constituency), and argue about the other stuff later.

I mean, we could also just lump all of the years issues into one gigantic Megabill, and argue about it for the next 10 years, but that seems counterproductive. But thats just me.

don't fall into the same trap as the UK (3, Interesting)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#41409459)

If you pass this bill don't fall into the same trap as the UK. Only allow degrees accredited by Universities with a proven academic record, and not any "overseas branches". Even reputable Universities can be tempted by overseas operations [telegraph.co.uk] , and it is much harder to deal with after the event after the event [bbc.co.uk] .

To clarify (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#41412417)

If you pass this bill don't fall into the same trap as the UK. Only allow degrees accredited by Universities with a proven academic record, and not any "overseas branches". Even reputable Universities can be tempted by overseas operations [telegraph.co.uk] , and it is much harder to deal with after the event after the event [bbc.co.uk] .

I realised that it might not be obvious what I'm talking about. Some "low end" educational establishments just become a means to buy a visa rather than teaching the students to any reasonable degree.

Bad news for whole tech industry (2)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 2 years ago | (#41409467)

Now where are they going to find those rare Java programmers who will work at "reasonable" rates?

Not needed, unless... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409471)

... they're after cheap newbies. There's a fair number of STEM people getting laid off as pharma contracts and other high-tech, not computer business off-shore. So, unless they're looking for young'uns who won't need the $$ or benefits, there's little point to this legislation.

Possibly relevant (5, Informative)

ryzvonusef (1151717) | about 2 years ago | (#41409541)

An analysis of whom the US lets in, versus other countries (Short article, has two infographics):

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/27/160110929/immigration-who-the-u-s-lets-in-and-why [npr.org]

Spoiler:
The short answer: The U.S. mostly lets in family members of people who are already in this country. Other developed countries focus much more on letting in workers.

Re:Possibly relevant (3, Insightful)

fermion (181285) | about 2 years ago | (#41411251)

So we want to transfer who we let in from families to those who will maximize profits for business. I suppose this is a tough choice for conservatives. Are we here to be family focused, or are we here because corporations are people.

The reality is that in America we must protect the family, and we must realize that the business of America is bidness. This is why I thought the dream act made so much sense. We have kids who have gone through a US education system, and who are ready for college or trade school. In many schools they are receiving very good SEM prep educations, and they are very motivated to study. If they finish college and get a job, why not let them stay. Why does it make more sense to import adults?

Here is my theory on the current status. Talking to am executive at a major multinational, it seems the H!B was primarily used for multinationals to assign workers, often temporarily, to the US, and but winter and summer resorts to gain skilled employees, usually ski instructors and the like. It boomed with IT looking for skilled workers and realizing that H1B visa workers were cheaper and in effect became indentured servants for the length of the time it took them to get a green card. This is the same thing with teach for america. Two years of guaranteed work without complaint, then leaving before one is vested.

Missing from summary (4, Informative)

necro81 (917438) | about 2 years ago | (#41409549)

Missing from the summary, which would help explain why the bill failed, was the fact that the 55,000 greencards for STEM would be taken from the pool that is used for granting greencards (by lottery) to people in other countries that just want to come to the U.S. In other words, in trying to retain these students, the Republicans wanted to sharply reduce the number of just-plain-ordinary immigrants coming from, say, Ghana, Poland, and Brazil. Competing legislation would have left the greencard lottery pool intact, and simply allocated a new block of 55,000 greencards specifically for advanced degree recipients.

YUO FAIL IT? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409603)

is not prone to there aRe obsessed - give they're gone Came

The party of NO (1)

tekrat (242117) | about 2 years ago | (#41409641)

So, Republicans are so accustomed to blocking or voting down bills in the house that they have ended this bill that they themselves have started. How ironic.

Re:The party of NO (0)

ZeroSumHappiness (1710320) | about 2 years ago | (#41410057)

What makes you think that the Republicans blocked this bill?

Re:The party of NO (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411243)

What makes you think that the Republicans blocked this bill?

The Congressional record.

I'll explain it to you, since it's not immediately obvious. This bill was introduced by the GOP, and they waited until the Suspension Calendar to submit it. This means instead of the normal number of votes needed to pass, which they easily had, it requires a 2/3's majority, which they do not have. The bulk of the bill matches what the Dems wanted, but they made sure to include some things which they knew the Dems would not vote for. Specifically, it takes visas away from the "lottery" pool which tend to go towards people not as highly skilled: i.e. middle/lower class immigrants.

Now, if the Dems had voted in favor of the bill, the GOP could have used that as election ammunition: They could claim the Dems voted to take Visas away from immigrants, just as one example.
But if the Dems voted it down (which they did) now the GOP can claim the Dems are against giving Visas to foreigners.

It's called a win-win situation, the goal of the bill was not to address visas. Rather, it was carefully planned as fodder for the election cycle.

Now, don't go getting mad at me and claiming I'm a rabid Dem or something. Both sides pull this shit all the damn time, and we'll just be seeing and hearing more bullshit just like it as November approaches.

Fucking insane (2, Insightful)

acoustix (123925) | about 2 years ago | (#41409773)

We have high unemployment. We have had over 48 straight months of our labor force participation rate falling. We have also had a record number of people in college or go back to college in the last 3 years.

Why are we trying to bring in MORE PEOPLE that will take jobs away from US CITIZENS???

Jesus tap dancing Christ!

Re:Fucking insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41409959)

What a bunch of cry-babies! Your rifle carrying-grand parents on the beaches of Normandy and the Pacific would say the same.

What do you prefer, Billy Bob Neck? 55k STEM PhDs/MSc or 55k nobodies?

Are you unhappy with your financial situation and think you're too smart for the money you're paid? Give me a break. Start a business!

Re:Fucking insane (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about 2 years ago | (#41410607)

Hey douche bag - they are importing students with visas which means when the visa expires they go home. So instead of educating someone living in America, who would get a job, pay taxes and spend money here, thereby growing the economy, you are going to bring in a foreign student, educate them and send them back to their country.

Nice...

Re:Fucking insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410749)

You are stupid. It is much easier for an Amerikhun to pay fees than a foreigner. The advantage of being a native is obvious. Moreover, Amerikhun grad students always have priority when it comes to funding and enrolment in the grad school.

Damn, you deserve to be poor for you're so stupid!

Re:Fucking insane (1)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412339)

This thread was a wonderful demonstration of what the problem with todays politics are.

Re:Fucking insane (2)

serialband (447336) | about 2 years ago | (#41411807)

The foreign students don't come here for free. They pay full tuition price and buy food and spend money. It's not like we subsidize them.

In fact, they're subsidizing the local students. They usually pay the higher fees while they're here. Local students, at least in the western states have a lot of it covered, although that's becoming less true. It makes up for the shortages in income that the "public" universities are suffering from the long term privatization efforts started around the time of Gov. Reagan.

Re:Fucking insane (2, Interesting)

lexsird (1208192) | about 2 years ago | (#41412453)

Here is the problem with that; we're producing bumper crops of retarded kids. Yes, the Facebook dwelling, console gaming, dope smoking idiots that we produce are hardly capable of delivering pizza. Do you know what our education systems focus on? SPORTS, yes indeed. Fuck math, science and all that jazz, little Johnny needs to worry about ball games, that's his ticket. We can produce some modern gladiators but it seems little else with our fucked in the head priorities.

You can blame a lot of factors for this, and it's been happening for about two generations, education and the quality of people we produce is in a free fall decline. We shouldn't be importing brains, we should be exporting them. But we're not, we're fucked. Go to the hospitals and see who's working on you these days. Everyone you see has a thick accent, and guess why? We can't fill these positions with "white people" because they're too fucking retarded for the jobs.

Go find you an old professor to talk to about this and be ready for an earful. They will tell you about how we used to have standards and now we just pass them on through for the money. If you flunk them like they should be, you will be out of a job. This kind of insanity starts way before college in k-12, when little Johnny flunks something and the parents get a lawyer and sue you for flunking their little precious. K-12 is a babysitting service not an education system. Their first years in college if not more, are used to fill in what the fuck they should already know.

We as a society do NOT value education near as much as we should. It's fucking shameful. AND here's a bitch about the numbers. India and China each prospectively produce more honor students than we produce in students period. Did you catch that? Let me repeat it. They each have more honor students than we have students. How the fuck do you think that is going to play out in the future?

Not to mention our politics are killing us. We have even dumber people in politics. We aren't in "fix it" mode, we are in "pillage and run for the hills" mode. Industrialism is dead here, it's about pillaging natural resources before anyone figures out just how fucked we are. Why? Because manufacturing and labor couldn't come to some kind of a truce where one wasn't burning the other to the fucking ground. Manufacturing took their ball and went home with the help of bought and paid for politicians who opened the door for them to trot the fuck out of the country. Now American labor is standing around with their cock in their hands wonder WTF happened.

It's all seriously fucked because the ecology of the economy is broken and like a tree that's roots have been chopped up, it's all dead wood, waiting for a storm to blow it over into a heap. Well, guess what? The old myth of our economy being best during a war was trotted out and it fell flat on it's face as we are now so far in debt for that epic stupidity, that we will never see light again in our lifetimes. Yes indeed, we shot our wads on two shit for brains backwater countries that do absolutely NOTHING for our money, but keep draining our wallets, and fucking up our best kids.

In the mean time, we have a political puppet show of two asshole parties that have proven to be nothing but political whores for whomever pays them the most. Either side would rather watch the country burn to the ground than hand the other a bucket of water to put it out. It's all about the God damned money and power for them, they are nothing but fucking puppets, jumping for whatever asshole entity that wants to pillage us some more. Face it, the rich here can see the ship is sinking and like rats they are abandoning ship. They wring every last dime they can out of us on the way out and down.

It's looking like the Great Depression for many of our people. We're bailing water, not steaming ahead. These visas aren't a fix, they are a patch to stop the air leaking from our tires so we can get to the gas station, which is closed. Do you think it's going to get better? The babyboomers are just starting to retire and sweet Jesus there are a lot of them. We don't have the replacements for them, nor the resources as we are going to support them. We're seriously fucked and so are they if we don't rethink things pronto. If we can't get a handle on our back breaking medical costs, we're going to do a "presto chango" magic act trick of transforming into a 3rd world country overnight.

Right now we have an election coming up. We have two parties that are locked in a death struggle. Shit is not going to get done when obstructionism is the marching orders of the day. When it's this locked up, one side has to lose and lose big so the other side can get some work done. Good or bad, the work has to be done or we just swirl the drain until we fall in it. I'm frankly voting balls out Democrat across the board. It's not that I like their values such as gay marriage or shit like that, it's that the Republicans have lost their fucking minds and just want to help the rich pack up every cent out of us while they can. They want to gut the EPA so that we fuck everything up even worse that it is so it will not matter if your kids are poor the planet will be seriously fucked anyway. They want to gut education and any social program so they can have a military budget to go prancing into another fucked in the head war. I've also watched the cocksuckers fight any and all legislation that would move the country forward just so that they could have a wrecked economy to campaign on.

Hell, I voted for Bush TWICE, but holy fuck, you have to take a bow and let those elected lead instead of pitching a fit like a spoiled child in the supermarket. I watched my party fucking implode and elect these fucking idiot Teabaggers. I've never seen nationalism played so hard by rich puppet masters in my life. It's down right balls out fascism. Fuck it, why not? Why not just go balls out and push the country over into pure fascism? It's already seriously fucked, and Sweet Jesus the people are damn dumb enough to buy into it. It's like watching a game of Risk and after so long and the armies are piled up everywhere, someone finally snaps and goes wild.

Well damn it, I'm not ready to throw our kids back into another fucking war because the God damn Jews want Iran wiped off the map. I'm not ready to throw Grandma and crippled, or retarded people under the bus so we can have more money for the military. I'm sorry, I'm really partial to things like a Post Office, roads, fire departments, police departments, schools, and all that over commie pinko socialist shit. I'm not ready to throw people to the wolves and watch them turn into fucking starved zombie-like creatures rooting in the trash for a bite to eat. Fuck no, especially when we have entire nations sucking on the welfare tit. Fuck them, our people and our infrastructure come first. If they didn't fuck with their neighbors and we didn't stand behind them with a big stick, they might have to make peace and get alone instead of pissing everyone off. Fuck propping up other countries with our military so that they can spend their money on their industries and infrastructure to compete with us and beat us out of our own money.

I hate being thrown in with Democrats, some of their base I want to throw in a gunny sack and toss in the river like unwanted kittens or puppies. But sometimes when one side runs so far out one direction, you are moved geometrically in political alignments. Let me give a simple illustration.

Left =======Middle======Right = Normal political balance.

Left=======Middle====================Right = when the Right goes too far right. Look at the middle, it's like Sweet Jesus, I'm now on the Left, thanks you fuckers. It works the other way, but lets face it, the Right has floorboarded it off to the right so far we need the Hubble Telescope to find them. Thank hate radio and Fox News for their outstanding work in Rightwing propaganda for this horseshit. Do I like bitching about it? Fuck no, I was loving Fox News when they first came out, CNN was the Communist News Network and I was tired of having to turn my TV on it's right side to counter their left slant. But holy shit when Obama got elected, they lost their fucking minds collectively. I remember when Bush was President, Democrats hated it, but they could be arm twisted into working with him. I fucking hated it when they were obstructionists, and yes they were pricks about it, especially after 9/11, they fucking dragged their feet in regards to stimulus and I wanted to slap them all in the face. But holy fuck, Republicans took obstructionism to a higher level and made an art form out of it to the point of "fuck the country" who cares if it burns or it's credit rating tanks.

I say fire the cocksuckers, vote Democrat across the board, just because. Yup, I'm voting for the Kenyan Muslim and his faggot loving socialist friends, instead of the Mormon Tabernacle Liar and his fuck-you-over corporate tax dodging warmongering buddies. What a completely bullshit situation we are in.

Re:Fucking insane (1)

pwizard2 (920421) | about 2 years ago | (#41412925)

You pretty much nailed what's wrong with this country. Mod parent up.

Re:Fucking insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410115)

>We have high unemployment

Not in STEM

> We have also had a record number of people in college or go back to college in the last 3 years.

Really? Who's fault is they're too stupid to realize that going to college is not going to make the economy get better by the time they graduate?
Also, I used to teach a while back. Are you familiar with the degree of idiocy/illiteracy in undergrad school? -> obviously, I'm referring too 2-3 tier colleges that deliver the majority of engineers/scientists in the US.

Re:Fucking insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410207)

dammit. it's "whose" not "who's".

Re:Fucking insane (1)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about 2 years ago | (#41410569)

Stem pay is still VERY low compared to how valuable the work is. The mbas won't let the money flow down.

Re:Fucking insane (1)

Bigby (659157) | about 2 years ago | (#41411025)

True. But they will have to eventually. There are too many MBAs.

Re:Fucking insane (1)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about 2 years ago | (#41410625)

Actually it's underemployment. There's a need for more people which could be filled if we bothered to educate people who are currently unemployed....

Re:Fucking insane (1)

acoustix (123925) | about 2 years ago | (#41410829)

Actually it's underemployment. There's a need for more people which could be filled if we bothered to educate people who are currently unemployed....

You must not have read my entire post then. I specifically state a record number of people in college and returning to college. There was money in the stimulus bill that provided for retraining and advanced degrees. Many states also encouraged retraining and advanced degrees. We saw enrollment numbers surge across the nation. But instead we will give the jobs away to foreigners.

Awesome!

Re:Fucking insane (2, Insightful)

Cigarra (652458) | about 2 years ago | (#41410175)

Because those people (highly skilled / educated immigrants) just happen to also CREATE more jobs [usnews.com] than your beloved "US CITIZENS". So in the long run, even lazy asses who only complain about "they taking errr jerbs" get to benefit as well.

Re:Fucking insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410287)

Exactly! Moreover, this whole brouhaha it's typical immigration-related bullshit. I attended a job fair a few days ago. Out of 150 companies, only 6 (!) offered visa sponsorship for foreign students.

Re:Fucking insane (2)

oh_my_080980980 (773867) | about 2 years ago | (#41410653)

You haven't met this people have you...these are STEM jobs douche bag. Which means they will work for a corporation not start one. Having a STEM degree doesn't mean you have financial means or business knowledge to start a business.

Re:Fucking insane (1)

Cajun Hell (725246) | about 2 years ago | (#41411535)

Why are we [allowing] MORE PEOPLE that will take jobs away from US CITIZENS???

FTFY.

The answer: because this is America, and freedom is more important than whatever it is that the Central Committee is telling today, you about their economic plan.

If you don't like American ideals, then go back to Cuba or North Korea. I don't know why you ever applied for your green card at all.

Those poor republicans... (0)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about 2 years ago | (#41410119)

I have so much sympathy for them. They have a significant majority in the house, so they shouldn't need to write a bill that makes any concessions to anyone who isn't in their party, should they? Clearly it is fine to write a bill just for your own kin and ignore the concerns of everyone else - you can always blame them if it doesn't pass.

After all, your election was all about you, not about the rest of the country.

And thank you, samzenpus, for again providing a pro-conservative bit on the front page. Lets remind the world that slashdot views the democrats as evil, evil, evil.

oh yeah, real popular (-1)

slashmydots (2189826) | about 2 years ago | (#41410445)

I couldn't get a job as a programmer for 3 years despite beating 82% of all programmers on the standard programming assessment for a gigantic multi-national contracting company and now I work as a head IT manager instead because I'm trained in everything else and have 2 degrees. So to all those foreign students with high education degrees, GET THE HELL OUT! Why the fuck would this article say the bill is popular with anyone anywhere ever? It's a job-stealing catastophuck.

Re:oh yeah, real popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41410533)

Meh. We already decided to stay here. Also, we'll take your smoking hot women and they'll have our babies (btw, they're crazy about our thick accents). Semi-foriegn babies, that is, who will take the jerbs away from your full-blooded babies. Mwahahaha!

Are you sure? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411763)

Your statement is comical and full of crap. Here's why:

*An of these visa's including the current permanent residency Employment based visas are issued only after the sponsoring company shows proof that there was not a US citizen/existing permanent resident that they could find to fill the position. This is called PERM labor certification. The process is randomly audited to prevent fraud.
2. There are 86,275 tech jobs listed on just Dice.com as of today. If you are not eligible to be hired for any of these jobs, that's your problem.
3. Using any standard assessment tests may sound important to ordinary folks who know nothing about programming/computers but the fact is less than 20% of all programming job interviews require a standard assessment. That is because most jobs are easy to fill just basing on a one or more rounds of technical interviews.

Rediculous (0)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 2 years ago | (#41410815)

If you have no criminal record, and you want to come into this country, you should be allowed to. After being here for 2 years without legal incident or financial failure (you're not living off welfare) you should be allowed to apply to become a citizen. After 2 more years of no run-ins with the law, you should get full citizenship. Period.

All these ridiculous visas for the rich, or if you're smart are just stupid. Illegal immigration is stupid. It should be easy to get here if you're a good person, plain and simple.

Re:Rediculous (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41411517)

Why dont't you just move to a foreign country? Don't we have enough non-english speaking, chagas and tuberculosis ridden, bed bug infested immigrants already? Don't we have enough unemployment? Don't we have a huge amount of diversity? How much is enough? When will it stop?

Re:Rediculous (2)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about 2 years ago | (#41412359)

Take it up with the constitution.

Some info about bills (1)

parkinglot777 (2563877) | about 2 years ago | (#41411519)

Here are the list of 3 bills proposed by different politicians. Each of them have advantages and disadvantages in their own reasons.

Bill from Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231276/Republicans_ready_STEM_Jobs_Act_ [computerworld.com]

- Replace DV lottery program with STEM visa
- Only those who obtained a doctorate or master degree from a U.S. university (or those who obtained a doctorate from a foreign university) are eligible, including courses/programs taking from online
- Allow those who graduated from for-profit schools to participate with some level of criteria set. - The candidate must be physically present in the U.S.
- The process to obtain the visa is similar to the process to obtain a green card
- The candidate must work with the employer at least 5 years
- Doctorate holders has higher priority when apply.
- Employers and occupation of the job must be listed on Department of Homeland Security website.

Bill from Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231295/Democrats_produce_rival_STEM_visa_bill [computerworld.com]

- Instead of replacing the DV lottery program, create a new green card program called EB-6.
- Let the new program run for 2 years, and then let lawmakers reassess whether to continue it.
- Not allow for-profit schools into the program.
- The pay must be considered from experience level, not from prevailing wage.

Bill from U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231377/Schumer_to_introduce_own_STEM_visa_bill?taxonomyId=70 [computerworld.com]

- Similar to Lofgren but allow for-profit schools.

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?