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Has Lenovo Taken the Top PC Manufacturer Spot From HP?

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the king-of-the-hill dept.

HP 99

angry tapir writes "Lenovo has taken the crown from Hewlett-Packard to become the world's top seller of PCs, research firm Gartner said in a study released this week. Lenovo took the top spot during a quarter in which PC shipments dropped overall due to a weak economy and pressure from mobile devices. Of the top four PC vendors, only Lenovo was able to grow its shipments. Its PC sales increased by almost 10 percent to 13.77 million units, giving it 15.7 percent of the market, Gartner said." Not so fast, says analysis firm IDC. They say that HP is still in the lead but Lenovo is very close.

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Apple? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624065)

How much time before Apple is larger than both?

Re:Apple? (2)

partyguerrilla (1597357) | about 2 years ago | (#41624137)

With that profit margin? Try never.

Re:Apple? (0)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 2 years ago | (#41624825)

With that growth rate? Try next year.

Re:Apple? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41626939)

Funny they've been saying that for a decade now and it still hasn't happened. Poor Apple doesn't realize they aren't the only one growing.

Re:Apple? (2)

NatasRevol (731260) | about 2 years ago | (#41636353)

And they've already made it to third place. From like dead last.

Re:Apple? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624139)

Apple doesn't make PCs, it's always yelling about how its products are different than PCs :P

Re:Apple? (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41628011)

They should port Mountain Lion to A5 or A6, and then make Airbooks out of them. By now, they must be having portability nailed. Do that, and they can lower their costs, and prices some, and Airbook too can make strides similar to iPads.

Re:Apple? (1)

91degrees (207121) | about 2 years ago | (#41624171)

I suspect that won't happen.

Apple isn't in quite the same market. Apple computers are high end devices and their business model is based on lower number of units at higher per unit profit. Lenovo and HP are perfectly happy to sell to the people who want a low cost machine and make their profit on units sold. Apple aren't really interested in that area because doing so would damage their image

Re:Apple? (1, Troll)

partyguerrilla (1597357) | about 2 years ago | (#41624235)

Now now, "high-end" is too strong of a word for what apple makes. They send expensive boutique computers with a generous markup, but the hardware is far from high-end.

Re:Apple? (2)

Kjella (173770) | about 2 years ago | (#41624373)

Now now, "high-end" is too strong of a word for what apple makes. They send expensive boutique computers with a generous markup, but the hardware is far from high-end.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but thinks like the iPad 3's screen or the Retina MBP were pretty unrivaled when they were released. In return, you get gouged pretty good on things like RAM or storage upgrades that are bog standard tech.

Re:Apple? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624521)

Apple's not really that 'high end'. They're making sure they release or announce stuff a day before the competition. That's the extent of it. If you want high end you really need to look elsewhere.

Re:Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41625049)

Apple's not really that 'high end'. They're making sure they release or announce stuff a day before the competition. That's the extent of it. If you want high end you really need to look elsewhere.

You mean like they did with the iPhone 5, when competitors scrambled to toss in an event in the weeks leading to the rumored Apple event date, in the hopes to steal some press time before it's too late? Wasn't that the case for the previous couple of iPhones too?

Re:Apple? (1)

Khyber (864651) | about 2 years ago | (#41624675)

"but thinks like the iPad 3's screen or the Retina MBP were pretty unrivaled when they were released."

No, my Samsung S-IPS monitor was already 'Retina' well before Retina was ever a buzzword. That was a few years before the iPad.

6.3M physical pixels in a 32" screen. 206 PPI.

Too bad it was stuck at 1920x1080 and not 5760x3240, though I bet a firmware modification could give it that performance.

Re:Apple? (1)

Kjella (173770) | about 2 years ago | (#41625867)

No, my Samsung S-IPS monitor was already 'Retina' well before Retina was ever a buzzword. That was a few years before the iPad. 6.3M physical pixels in a 32" screen. 206 PPI. Too bad it was stuck at 1920x1080 and not 5760x3240, though I bet a firmware modification could give it that performance.

Uh, so a firmware upgrade would turn your 6.3M physical pixels into a 5760x3240 = 18.7MP display? And LCD panels have only one native resolution, so if it was 1920x1080 then I'm guessing your 6,3 million "pixels" is 1920x1080xRGB? I'm sorry, but that's not the way we count them...

Re:Apple? (1)

Khyber (864651) | about 2 years ago | (#41631915)

Sorry, my math went off, too much beer.

Take the monitor, open up paint.

Make a single white pixel on a black background.

Take a microscope to the lit up 'pixel'

See that it's not a single pixel, rather a 3x3 group of pixels lit up. 9 physical pixels (27 RGB subpixels) to make a single pixel.

So, yea, 18.7MP display, not 6.3MP.

Still, a firmware update probably is possible to get that resolution - the hardware is already obviously there, otherwise it couldn't drive all of those pixels.

Re:Apple? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 years ago | (#41624701)

A higher res screen doesn't make the laptop terribly high end. It's just a nice advertising bullet point for idiots that pride themselves in having no clue about what they are buying.

Apple is form over function and design that escalates price for no good reason while also reducing maintainability and useful lifespan.

Re:Apple? (1)

Synerg1y (2169962) | about 2 years ago | (#41624863)

Ehh... not to back apple or anything, but I thought they always prided themselves on usability, you can't break it no matter how much you click around, and you can intuitively find most things. Having said that, we can use the word "idiots" in a whole different light: those who can't use a PC w/o breaking it.

Re:Apple? (2)

LordLucless (582312) | about 2 years ago | (#41624713)

There's nothing special about Retina displays. They're not a new technology or anything like that, it's just a marketing label applied to displays with a certain pixel density. Nobody was competing on PPI before that because the market didn't care. It was only after Apple applied their marketing whammy that people started asking for it.

Re:Apple? (1)

Kjella (173770) | about 2 years ago | (#41626085)

There's nothing special about Retina displays. They're not a new technology or anything like that, it's just a marketing label applied to displays with a certain pixel density. Nobody was competing on PPI before that because the market didn't care. It was only after Apple applied their marketing whammy that people started asking for it.

Oh please how many people have we got here on slashdot that cry over 1920x1200 vs 1920x1080? The market didn't care given the ridiculous premiums, sure IBM offered a 4K monitor back in 2001 for $18k - I wonder why people didn't buy it? By your standards Henry Ford did nothing special, the car was well invented before he got involved. Oh and OS support, also had nothing to do with it. It was absolutely all Apple's marketing machine.

Re:Apple? (1)

mjwx (966435) | about 2 years ago | (#41626527)

Now now, "high-end" is too strong of a word for what apple makes. They send expensive boutique computers with a generous markup, but the hardware is far from high-end.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but thinks like the iPad 3's screen or the Retina MBP were pretty unrivaled when they were released. In return, you get gouged pretty good on things like RAM or storage upgrades that are bog standard tech.

No, a high res screen does not make them "unrivalled".

We gave a GIS (mapping) application running on Ipad and Android. The Ipad may have more resolution but the layers are put together client side (this is so we can update a layer without updating the entire map image) and the 1 year old Acer Iconia is 3-5 faster than the brand new Ipad 3. Screen resolution is a gimmick to disguise the fact that it cant do real gruntwork.

It's the same with the MBP's, My sub $900 Asus has several times the power of the MBP due to having a dedicated Geforce 640m. As a gamer, a nice screen is important but it's completely useless if I have to run it at 1200x800 because the $2000 laptop runs an Intel GMA.

BTW, when it comes to phones I prefer the battery life I get out of the AMOLED on by GNex.

Re:Apple? (1)

collet (2632725) | about 2 years ago | (#41627233)

I felt the same way, I felt that MBP just cannot compete in terms of horsepower. I bought an Acer 5750G, 2.5GHz i5, 750GB HDD Geforce 630M, 8GB RAM = $1000 NZD
The cheapest MacBook Pro had a 2.4GHz i5, 500GB HDD, no dedicated graphics, 4GB RAM = $1900 NZD. My friend bought one of these thinking he was going to be editing HD videos...

The only real difference that mattered to me was that his screen had 32 more vertical pixels.

Re:Apple? (1)

collet (2632725) | about 2 years ago | (#41627523)

Interestingly my 5750G seems to run Hackintosh quite nicely.

Re:Apple? (1)

Yomers (863527) | about 2 years ago | (#41627405)

I give Apple a credit for making hi-res mainstream. I'm typing it on IBM (Lenovo) T60 15'', retrofitted with t61 motherboard, intel t9300 2.5 GHz C2D, and QXGA (2048x1536) 4:3 IPS display, that I recently assembled from 'as new' parts.
 
Display was made sometime before 2006, so technology was there all the time, nobody just cared to make laptop out of it. Last laptop with this display was made by IBM around 2005, luckily display is compatible with slightly newer T60 laptop shell, which is compatible with slightly more newer T61 motherboard.

Re:Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624417)

I completely agree, since they hqve switched to Intel CPU's they do not use the the top end cpu unless u for up a small fortune. And purchasing a new Apple machine u must make all your choices at the time of purchase and your upgrade options are very limited if u get any other machine then the G5 tower. And I still want one, a G5.

Re:Apple? (1)

damnbunni (1215350) | about 2 years ago | (#41624811)

Actually, your options are REALLY limited with a G5 tower.

Since they stopped making them six years ago.

Re:Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41625931)

Aww, sounds like someone's upset he didn't get a Mac for Christmas.

Re:Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624439)

... Apple computers are high end devices ...

You mean "high cost" - and not "high end" exactly !

Re:Apple? (1)

91degrees (207121) | about 2 years ago | (#41651937)

Nearly all of them have i7 processors. Many have solid state drives as standard. Even the cheapest have competent graphics hardware. They have higher resolution displays than most other machines of the same screen size.

A Windows based laptop with the same specs would be considered high end even if it did cost less than the Apple equivalent.

Re:Apple? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41625883)

Apple declined along with the rest of the industry (Lenovo excluded). They're losing ground, not gaining.

Why would you buy from either one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624141)

They both sell pieces of crap.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (2)

neminem (561346) | about 2 years ago | (#41624233)

Because Lenovo has never tried to (knowingly or not - I couldn't tell whether it was intentional or just mindboggling incompetence) screw me out of using a warranty I'd purchased by claiming they had no record I'd ever purchased anything from them. Granted, that's because I've never purchased anything from Lenovo, but I don't -yet- have a reason to never purchase anything from them ever again, like I do with HP.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624541)

Calling Lenovo for support gets you someone in Atlanta (IBM call center) that doesn't have to run you through a script. If you tell them what you've tried, they're allowed to cut the conversation short and say, "the prepaid shipping box will be on your door tomorrow".

HP, on the other hand, is a horror show. Work and personal machines have all been serious problems. That includes their servers. And I'd rather get paper cuts on my eyeballs than call their support ever again.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41630241)

Yup. My battery died after 4 months (Lenovo x220). One call to Lenovo + 24 hours and I had a nice new battery in my hand.
Only difference was that the new battery had much better capacity than the original..
Also - the lenovos work really well with Linux (my company has a few - all of them running Linux).
Having experienced other laptop suppliers .. I can honestly say that at the present, I would not even consider any other brand.
Lenovo has me hooked.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (1)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | about 2 years ago | (#41624647)

I've got a lenovo stinkpad t420. It's not a bad system as long as you take into account that it's a laptop.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | about 2 years ago | (#41627583)

I gather reason you call it a "stink" pad is because it's not a Toughbook? Why didn't you just buy a Toughbook, then?

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624737)

Personally, I quite like my ThinkPad. I'd certainly prefer it over the equivalent Apple offering. (but that's largely because I'm addicted to the trackpoint)

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (2)

NIK282000 (737852) | about 2 years ago | (#41625535)

As this is going to be a never ending stream of anecdotes, here's mine! I bought a Lenovo W500 in 2008, it was $1400 and has been fantastic. It had only 1 bit of pre-installed nonsense that was easy to remove, has survived a full beer going through the keyboard and 4 years of abuse. Its been jammed into bags, dropped on tile floors and crushed in car trunks, every time I though "oh fuck, its dead now" and every time it was fine. Even putting it back to factory, I did that last year, was painless. Just pressed the blue button and tell it to go back to factory spec, it took less then 20min from pressing the blue button to setting a new background. If I ever decide that I want another laptop its going to be a Lenovo Thinkpad but this one still has years of life left in it.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (2)

jasen666 (88727) | about 2 years ago | (#41626051)

I bought two Lenovo laptops in the last six months or so (one for me and one for the woman) and I quite enjoy them. Not high-end models, just $400-450 range. The construction quality and finish seems nice, they weren't loaded down with bloatware... I have no complaints at all. The HPs and Toshibas in the same price range that the Office Depot drone was trying to push on me just didn't feel very solid. Cheap plasticy feeling. The sound system on mine (G series) is probably the best I've heard in a laptop.
I've had Dells for the last few years, provided by my company, and I really didn't have any complaints about the Latitudes either, although I'd prefer to work on the Lenovo now.

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (1)

toygeek (473120) | about 2 years ago | (#41625981)

You are wrong. HP sells pieces of crap. Lenevo has and still does make good computers that have very little crapware pre-loaded. Earlier this year my wife needed a new PC asap, and because we are living in different parts of the country, building her a new one wasn't an option. So, I bought a Lenovo desktop PC and had it shipped to her address. Its a great computer, is reasonably fast for the price I paid ($310 on sale) and it hasn't as much as hiccuped.

I've also recommended them to several clients without any negative feedback (trust me, I'd hear it!) and they are just good solid computers without too much fluff.

HP is as lousy as ever, selling some of the biggest piece of crap computers I've ever seen, with perhaps the exception of E-Machines (which I think is gone anyway).

Re:Why would you buy from either one? (1)

DarwinSurvivor (1752106) | about 2 years ago | (#41654307)

Nice to hear some feedback about their desktop machines. All I've ever heard before about Lenovo was regarding their laptops (got an x220 myself about 6 months ago and loving it).

Never trust Gartner on anything... (4, Insightful)

mindmaster064 (690036) | about 2 years ago | (#41624157)

At least that's what I learned when the word "Microsoft" is in any of their reports. I would assume that it is that way with everything else too... They're like the Fox News of the tech industry -- it's all about who pays the most.

Re:Never trust Gartner on anything... (3, Interesting)

multiben (1916126) | about 2 years ago | (#41624391)

You are absolutely correct. Ten years ago I was forced to deal with them on behalf a government agency I worked for. Getting anything useful out of them requires $$$$$$$$$ and more $$$$$$$$$. $90,000 for a single membership to be precise. Or $150,000 for a premium membership. Like most people who get promoted out of tech roles into management, the people I worked for couldn't hand over the cash quick enough for the chance to hear wild and mostly unfounded predictions about the future of IT. It never ceases to amaze me that Gartner have survived this long.

Here's what Canalys says (2)

tlambert (566799) | about 2 years ago | (#41627311)

These guys monitor supply chains, and they include tables with PCs, which gives their top spot to Apple, the next to HP, and Lenovo comes in third:

http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/2012-will-bring-new-world-record-pc-shipments [canalys.com]

Re:Here's what Canalys says (2)

rtb61 (674572) | about 2 years ago | (#41628735)

The reality is that what they put out is total bullshit. They should only list manufactures, re-badgers should be totally ignored or put up as a completely separate listing. Who cares how many plastic stick on badges HP versus how many computers Lenovo made especially when HP didn't even make the stick on badges. So goes for Apple and all the rest of the re-badgers. So what are the real numbers, where does ACER, ASUS and even Foxcon et al actual come it.

It's about time the lies were dropped about resellers and importers being computer manufacturers or those numbers that don't count dropped off their tallies. Far more interesting to count who is actually manufacturing them and who the new rising stars will as those useless middle men inevitably die off.

Apple's 3rd Quarter (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624197)

"The Company sold 20.34 million iPhones in the quarter, representing 142 percent unit growth over the year-ago quarter. Apple sold 9.25 million iPads during the quarter, a 183 percent unit increase over the year-ago quarter. The Company sold 3.95 million Macs during the quarter, a 14 percent unit increase over the year-ago quarter. Apple sold 7.54 million iPods, a 20 percent unit decline from the year-ago quarter."
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/07/19Apple-Reports-Third-Quarter-Results.html [apple.com]

Apple makes pretty good profit, of course. Would love to know what the Lenovo and HP sales translate into for Microsoft OS & apps, so we can do a profitability comparison.

What's the difference? (1)

Virtucon (127420) | about 2 years ago | (#41624251)

As somebody pointed out, they're both really lousy at PCs and sell predominantly to corporate clients. They both use Chinese/Taiwanese components cobbled together in Chinese Factories and then ship them over here. One owns the rights to the old IBM brand and the other owns the rights to the old Compaq and DEC brands, so what's the difference?

Now if only Lenovo would hire Carly Fiorina as CEO, then we'd see a real battle.. Meg vs. Carly and we could host it on pay per view in the Octagon!

Re:What's the difference? (2)

mcmonkey (96054) | about 2 years ago | (#41624443)

As somebody pointed out, they're both really lousy at PCs and sell predominantly to corporate clients. They both use Chinese/Taiwanese components cobbled together in Chinese Factories and then ship them over here. One owns the rights to the old IBM brand and the other owns the rights to the old Compaq and DEC brands, so what's the difference?

Completely anecdotal, but I think there's quite a difference. Between my wife and I, we've gone through 8 ThinkPads over the years--IBM and Lenovo. My father-in-law has probably used/owned at least a dozen as an employee and self-employed consultant. Other in-laws, too many to count.

Why so many? First, we're spoiled Americans and like to upgrade every 2 or 3 years. Second, we've found them to have decent resale value. And third, we keep going back to IBM/Lenovo because we rarely have issues with them. To borrow a phrase, they just work.

Meanwhile, the one small company I worked at that bought HPs for everyone, about a third died within a month. And my family--who for some reason asks me for advice every time they buy a new computer, but never takes that advice--has gone through countless HPs, Toshibas, Dells, Acers, etc. and has had issues with every singe one of them.

Maybe it's different for desktop PCs, but for laptops, notebooks, netbooks, etc, I'd pay cash out of pocket for a ThinkPad before I'd use a free HP. The time and aggravation dealing with issues isn't worth the money I'd save.

Re:What's the difference? (2)

overshoot (39700) | about 2 years ago | (#41624633)

And third, we keep going back to IBM/Lenovo because we rarely have issues with them. To borrow a phrase, they just work.

I've owned an HP (more than ten years ago), a T42 Thinkpad from the time that Lenovo was taking over, and a new T520. The HP was OK, if a bit fragile. The T42, as you say, just plain works. Damn near bulletproof, never a problem -- and it's been in heavy use for seven years.

The kindest thing I can say about the T520 is that it's flaky. Cores randomly, sometimes before it's done POSTing. The wireless networking is up and down, up and down -- unless it's just plain down. It's the kind of intermittent behavior that you can't get warranty service for because it never reproduces when the technician tests it.

I bought the T42 because I knew literally hundreds of engineers from semiconductor companies who put hundreds of thousands of miles on theirs every year and they did, indeed, just plain work. And that's just what it did for me until it got too long in the tooth to handle the current workload. But if I could get a halfway modern laptop with the quality of that T42, I'd scrap this Lenovo POS for it in a hartbeat.

Re:What's the difference? (1)

Tau_Xi (958303) | about 2 years ago | (#41624917)

And third, we keep going back to IBM/Lenovo because we rarely have issues with them. To borrow a phrase, they just work.

I've owned an HP (more than ten years ago), a T42 Thinkpad from the time that Lenovo was taking over, and a new T520. The HP was OK, if a bit fragile. The T42, as you say, just plain works. Damn near bulletproof, never a problem -- and it's been in heavy use for seven years.

The kindest thing I can say about the T520 is that it's flaky. Cores randomly, sometimes before it's done POSTing. The wireless networking is up and down, up and down -- unless it's just plain down. It's the kind of intermittent behavior that you can't get warranty service for because it never reproduces when the technician tests it.

I bought the T42 because I knew literally hundreds of engineers from semiconductor companies who put hundreds of thousands of miles on theirs every year and they did, indeed, just plain work. And that's just what it did for me until it got too long in the tooth to handle the current workload. But if I could get a halfway modern laptop with the quality of that T42, I'd scrap this Lenovo POS for it in a hartbeat.

I disagree that you can't get warranty service. I've had many warranty calls where I say it's an intermittent issue, and they send me a prepaid warranty box and say "Check the intermittent box on the form and send it in". Even if it passes their pre-tests, they replace the motherboard anyway. One time, we even sent in the wrong laptop which had NOTHING wrong with it, and they STILL replace the motherboard because we checked the "intermittent" box on the form! Try it and see, I've had nothing but good experiences with the Lenovo warranty center.

Re:What's the difference? (2)

Deathlizard (115856) | about 2 years ago | (#41625261)

I'll second the notion that Lenovo's are NOT IBM.

I worked for a company that was a warranty self maintainer for IBM, and then Lenovo Products. The difference was night and day. IBM spent stupid amounts of money to make sure that their laptops could take abuse after abuse after abuse. I've seen anything from candle wax spills to systems run over by cars that would still boot. Lenovo's QA went downhill somewhere around the T400 /R400 Series. We were averaging at least 2 R400 boards a week on just USB tabs Breaking. Then they killed the R series and replaced them with the Thinkpad Edge, which was basically a glorified consumer laptop that we could work on (Yes. The consumer line and the business line have completely separate warranty systems. You can't order consumer parts as a WSM) Edge 14's could be crashed simply by flexing the case. I almost had an Edge E520 Catch on fire because they had cheap power plugs that would crack and break off in the power plug. Both edges could be classified as Crash test dummies when it came to hard drive failures. Then the bloatware started creeping in severely with the Edge E535 to the point that you would swear it's a consumer unit.

Desktop wise, they were still pretty good but nowhere near the IBM Build Quality. Cheapened the hell out of the case, but they didn't have too many problems outside of power supplies failing. A bit overpriced on Intel but we tended to buy AMD's for labs which had a very good price point in bulk purchases.

Servers were mostly IBM's rebadged to Lenovo, with a few workstation rebadges for fun. IBM is still in this segment and we stayed with them because Lenovo couldn't offer us the same level of support. IBM still knows how to keep enterprise happy, although it's not cheap.

Re:What's the difference? (2)

mtmra70 (964928) | about 2 years ago | (#41625699)

I agree with you mostly, but the Lenovo W and T series is pretty solid. It may not be as solid as the T600 and T4x line, their T4xx and W5xx line is really good and blows away anything HP or Dell has to offer.

Re:What's the difference? (1)

bsercombe72 (1822782) | about 2 years ago | (#41627801)

I've used thinkpads exclusively for small business and personal use since the early noughties. In this time I've bought roughly 30 machines every three years, so three or four generations. The ones I had the most problems with were T40-T42, still practically from the IBM stable, but compared to anything else (NEC, Acer, HP) I encountered they were literally streets ahead. The current generation we have is X200-220 and T400 series. I wouldn't touch anything that's Lenovo by Lenovo like the L or W series. Of these we have had a single failure- a DOA motherboard. And no failures at all since. The machines are mostly out of warranty now but we're still going to use them in our business for a fourth year without warranty since they have shown themselves to be bulletproof. The only change we made is to recently replace all the SATA drives with some SSDs we had spare.

My boss had a T42 several years ago and propped it in his bag against a taxi. The taxi ran over and totalled the laptop but we just removed the HDD and plugged it into another of the same model. He also had one fall from an aircraft overhead locker onto the floor. No screen breakage, booted up first go. I've dropped my X220 onto concrete and there is only a small crack in the bottom left of the clamshell.

By comparison we had an Acer "business" laptop that went back to the shop 6 times due to motherboard or graphics card failure (amounts to the same thing but anyways). Each time it would take WEEKS for them to give it back to us. I've NEVER had a warranty repair on a Lenovo take more than 7 days. These days it is 48 hours or less.

The thinkvantage onboard software which keeps all the drivers and software up to date could teach Microsoft update a thing or two.

The only complaints I ever get about them from staff is that they look ugly. Personally, I don't care if they look like the proverbial russian tractor- all that matters to me is that they run like a rocket and never let me down.

IBM X220 FTW.

Re:What's the difference? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41630519)

My company also buys X220's .. all installed with Linux and they all work beautifully.
It's the best laptop (Linux or otherwise) I've ever had.
My colleagues are also very satisfied. 1 battery died after 4 months and was replaced (free of cost) within 24 hours.

Re:What's the difference? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#41629603)

Servers were mostly IBM's rebadged to Lenovo

Meanwhile lots of IBM servers have been rebadged from other people, like MSI...

Re:What's the difference? (1)

aqmxv (1469151) | about 2 years ago | (#41629985)

Yeah, I'm slow getting to this thread, but I had to reply to this one. Beating on Lenovo because it's not IBM misses some of the spectacular disasters that IBM put out in the last year or so before they sold the ThinkPad brand to Lenovo. We were an all-ThinkPad shop at that time and had great luck with T2x and T3x models. Then we got some T50s They all died within a year due to bad capacitors on the boards. That was at the same time that IBM hard drives were known as DeathStars...

Lenovo, of course, wants to keep making money on the brand next year, so quality seems to have gone back up since then. Are they as tank-like as the T22 I had was? No, but then neither was the T42 I had, although it was a fine lump of hardware.

After the sell-off to Lenovo, our shop went all HP. I like the desktops, and the Elitebooks have been mostly OK. But the fashion-victim apple-clone chicklet keyboards on the current batch of Elitebooks suck, so my next purchase is probably going to be Lenovo just to get away from that.

Re:What's the difference? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624755)

Adding to this, I recently bought a Lenovo laptop because, in its price range, it was far and away the best gaming laptop on NewEgg. I have not been disappointed, and it is performing well above my friends HP which cost $500 more. Anecdotal? Yeah. But it's really changed my perception which was unfairly skewed from my company buying really shitty thinkpads.

Re:What's the difference? (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 2 years ago | (#41624791)

They both use Chinese/Taiwanese components

You realize Lenovo is a Chinese company right?

Re:What's the difference? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624951)

And HP isn't?

Re:What's the difference? (1)

partyguerrilla (1597357) | about 2 years ago | (#41625885)

Macs are made at Foxconn, all are made with chinese parts these days.

Re:What's the difference? (1)

tchuladdiass (174342) | about 2 years ago | (#41636227)

The big difference is that Lenovo makes their own laptops in their own factories -- whereas all the others make them at an outsourced factory. And I don't care where the factory is, quality always seems poorer at an outsourced plant.

the real story here is an 8.5% decline in PC sales (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624345)

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/pc-sales-collapse-personal-computer-dead-142733092.html

From multiple separate industry analyist outfits, the overall decline in PC sales is being labeled "shocking" and "unexpected". Many expected PC sales to remain roughly flat as tablet sales increased, but it now seems that at least part of the 8.5% decline is being attributed to customers shifting much of their computing to tablet devices. Some is also being attributed to customers waiting to buy new PCs until Windows 8 ships, which causes a temporary decline, but that is not thought to explain the entire 8.5%.

It looks like the theories that PC sales will hold up in the face of mobile are looking less likely. On the other hand, PC sales will clearly not die entirely, since some applications need that kind of platform. But for the majority of the market which needs only web surfing and facebook integration,, tablets can fill that niche without the complexity and malware danger of a Wintel PC.

Re:the real story here is an 8.5% decline in PC sa (2)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | about 2 years ago | (#41624703)

PC sales not holding up at current levels does not = the pc is dead. Not by a long shot. I expect much greater decline in pc sales as the "websurfing" crowd switch. People who use computers for work, engineers, geeks, etc will still be using pc type systems for a long time to come. It does mean high volume low quality manufacturers such as HP have something to worry about if they don't change their current business model.

Re:the real story here is an 8.5% decline in PC sa (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624981)

I'm confused... You're basically agreeing that Joe Average will be using an iPad at home, that Joe Factory Worker will be using an iPad to control his machinery, and that Joe Salesman will be using a high end MacBook to type his reports. And you're still arguing that the PCs isn't dead for all intents and purposes?

Re:the real story here is an 8.5% decline in PC sa (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41642801)

Tablets are a gimmick. Sure, some people like them and they have some niches, but I fully expect them to be like the netbook in a few years. The real reason for the decline of PC sales that people just don't feel the need to upgrade like they used to. The service life a PC has gone from 3-5 years to 7-10 years.

i wonder when (2)

nimbius (983462) | about 2 years ago | (#41624367)

we'll be forced to stop calling them PC vendors? its a touch offtopic but worth mentioning. A sound argument can be made that these arent personal computers at all. Each one is mandated to include windows 8, which is basically just an app store. its designed to become obsolete in 2-4 years, and several systems like UEFI and trusted computing prevent the user from ever considering their computer "personal." The "locked down" OS model is already being baked into consumers at the mobile device level and having seen sales in such devices supplant them,PC vendors are likely to file in lock-step to try and match this advantage. Of course you'll get workarounds for businesses much the same as we get them for redhat/centos/ubuntu when we order servers, but the average person to which "personal" applies in PC is probably going to get shafted.

you could also argue the numbers for sales are entirely irrelevant as anyone interested in a real "personal computer" is buying the parts and building it themselves.

Re:i wonder when (1)

OhANameWhatName (2688401) | about 2 years ago | (#41625901)

Cable modems don't modulate or de-modulate, but we still call them modems.

Re:i wonder when (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41631271)

The signal on your cable line has been modulated using QAM or Trellis.

Lenovo is the only half-decent manufacturer left (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624477)

That is in the top 10 'manufacturers'. While everybody has cut corners over the years HP, Dell, and others went too far. With falling prices in the lat 15 years even the poor can afford top quality systems. People are realizing that Dell and now HP are shipping crap. IBM/Lenovo has been going downhill all along although the difference is the company has made sure to release slightly better quality products than the rest. So it is no wonder people are going Lenovo.

Personally I would not buy Lenovo. They ship systems with digital restrictions and I'm not willing to work around those restrictions just so I can run my choice of GNU/Linux distribution. ThinkPenguin's the way to go now these days. They've been working hard to improve the cooperation between free software developers and chipset manufacturers. There current generation of laptops is amazing and they are working on a new USB N adapter that should work better than anything thats come before (not hard to do considering all USB N adapters on GNU/Linux are crap or dependent on non-free software- there is one older G chipset that works well although no longer readily available- ThinkPenguin did stock up on it before the chipsets demise so GNU/Linux users should be able to get them for a while).

Re:Lenovo is the only half-decent manufacturer lef (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41633783)

How are the mid to high range dells these days? Say a Latitude or Precision laptop?

I love Thinkpads but it'd be nice to think there is some competition beyond Lenovo and Apple for halfway decent hardware.

DOES IT MATTER ?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41624505)

China makes every SKU HP has already !!

Tim Cook says count tablets too (1)

peter303 (12292) | about 2 years ago | (#41624673)

That makes Apple the largest player

Re:Tim Cook says count tablets too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41642823)

Tim Cook can suck my cock.

Bloatware turds with stupid keys (3, Interesting)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about 2 years ago | (#41624741)

I don't care if HP computers are made from magic; the bloatware that they come with is intolerable and that stupid cheap "\|" key they put as half of the left shift key is rage inducing.

A while back I gave my family a very short list of computers that I would help them with. HP is not on that list. They buy something off the list and they are on their own. Sign number one that a computer company hates their users is when they put that crap Norton Trialware on the computer.

People keep blah blahing about a Post-PC world coming due to tablets and smart phones. I say it all started to die the day that some MBA came up with the business model of selling a computer really cheap and then trying to screw the customer with all he money / time sucking bloatware.

Another good example of where HP went wrong was with their printer drivers. I print maybe once a month. Thus I don't want the driver running full time in the background. It should be about 3 megs of software that takes my document and prints it. I don't need to manage the print jobs, redirect them, manage supplies, or anything else. These should be optional programs that I could install on say a machine that prints all day long. But no they want me to download 200megs of crap that then installs all kinds of document management crap. This just drives me to make sure that I buy an older used printer that has drivers built into the OS.

I always laugh at those pictures of Jumbotron screens where a Norton AV subscription reminder has come up mid game but that is not so much the fault of the Jumbotron people as it is the greed of companies like HP.

But this crap is now creeping into smartphones. Rogers even put McAfee AV on his Android smartphone.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

couchslug (175151) | about 2 years ago | (#41624829)

I automatically nuke/pave/clean install every machine I buy or work on for relatives.

It's fast, it's easy, and I don't have to care about what was on it out of the box.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (3, Insightful)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about 2 years ago | (#41626023)

I did this in the past but I find that just finding the right version of windows to match their product key is a huge pain. Then you have to start installing drivers from HP and often those drivers come with baggage.

So I insist that they get a machine that works out of the box. I have a very short list of machines that I will help with. At first they laughed got crap machines and then when they hit even the smallest hiccup like a printer jam I would just say, "Good luck with Google" Otherwise I just go over and start getting annoyed the first time I go to hit the left shift key. Now they spend a few extra bucks get the right machine and oddly call me a whole lot less.

Call me overly sensitive but if I could repair cars and you bought a Daiwoo I wouldn't fix that either. I would again make a list of cars that are good value and hand that out.

I use a mac and generally recommend those. I set my mother up with a Linux box (locked down so grandkids don't wreck it). One sister is a Lawyer so I told her to go with Windows as it is inevitable that there will be some Windows only app LawMaster2000 or such. So I am very much the right system for the right job. But when it comes to the machine don't buy it from a company that seems to hate their customers. I find HP machines are like companies that pay minimum wage; they are basically saying if it were legal they would pay even less. HP seems to be saying that if they could get away with it they would sell even worse machines.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41625007)

Hmm I'm not sure what your referring. When I install an HP printer I can print without installing any HP bloatware. Are you on Microsoft Windows? I'm guessing you are by the sounds of things.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about 2 years ago | (#41626045)

I find that this totally depends on the printer. All-in-ones seem to take over your machine. Boring older models dish out little or no abuse.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

PunchMonkey (261983) | about 2 years ago | (#41626663)

I just bought my first bilingual keyboard laptop and it is driving me nuts. I'm getting used to the Enter key placement, but that shift key is a pain. I came across this program which lets you remap the bottom-left backslash to shift.

http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick/ [charter.net]

It isn't perfect. It works well when typing words and paragraphs, but doesn't work for highlighting or some other functions.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

fluffy99 (870997) | about 2 years ago | (#41626943)

So don't install the whole HP printer suite. Go download just the print driver and be done with it. Best best is to get a printer with an ethernet port that support tcpip printing which doesn't force you to have usb-only drivers. Uninstall all the crapware they install, or better yet nuke and reinstall from known good sources so you don't even have to worry if it came pre-rooted.

Personally, bragging that you are elitist about what brands of computers you'll help your family makes you seem like an ass. Sure you can recommend what you think might be less troublesome (for both them and you), but even then it's hard to predict which particular models will end up having short lifespans.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about 2 years ago | (#41632475)

Yes elitist like I won't eat food with lead in it or meat that doesn't smell good. It is just that if they won't take my advice and pay less than it would cost for one or two visits to a geek squad and get the right machine then no I won't give my time and years of skill away for free. Going into staples and getting their door crasher special might make them feel good for having save $90 but then they expect me to spend a few hours wiping it of the bloatware and repeated other calls dealing with crap like when the crap WiFi keeps turning itself off.

Then these self same people get an iPhone4s (which regardless of the upfront cost is $700) then they scream about paying more than $400 for a laptop that they need for school/work. So no, you either buy from my list or don't expect me to hand out free support. My list is even flexible. No split left shift, check. No built in trial AV, check. No built in music buying software, check. No built in games software, check. No built in trial of MS Office, check. Machine is from a manufacturer I have heard of, check (Think not SORNY). Machine doesn't sound like a baby rattle when you shake it, check. Machine doesn't smell funny, check. (I find machines that smell funny out of the box have a huge failure rate.) Not a terribly elitist list. Typically you might spend 100-150 more to hit all the points. There are some things that I have even taken off the list as everything has them now like boots from USB.

Re:Bloatware turds with stupid keys (1)

fluffy99 (870997) | about 2 years ago | (#41633751)

I occassionally help some cow-orkers and friends out with their personal computers as well. Usually the problem isn't the pre-installed trialware or hardware faults. It's virus and toolbars, etc. Sometimes I'll take the time to clean it up, and sometimes I tell them just to copy off their data and then restore it with the recovery CD or partition (assuming it has one). When they ask my advice on what to buy, I usually steer towards a decent brand and if possible to buy a few steps up from the bottom of the consumer line. For example buying from the Dell small-business site usually avoids most of the crapware. I also steer them away from low-end inkjet printers by educating them on the high cost/page which makes more sense to them than the quality of the drivers. Spending $50 more on the printer will save $100 on ink over it's lifetime, etc.

Thinkpad still the best laptop (4, Informative)

loufoque (1400831) | about 2 years ago | (#41624845)

I've bought many laptops, and thinkpads, even recent ones, are still clearly the best laptops on the market.
Great build, great keyboard.
Pricey, but has all the best hardware possible, and it works well on linux.

Everything a demanding software engineer might need.

Re:Thinkpad still the best laptop (3, Insightful)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about 2 years ago | (#41625169)

I dont have mod points, so let me just repeat that, "Great Keyboard!". They simple have best tactile feedback I have seen.

Re:Thinkpad still the best laptop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41625259)

screw that... switch my control and function keys back to the way it should be... ill never use another! no matter how great the tactile feedback is!

Re:Thinkpad still the best laptop (2)

loufoque (1400831) | about 2 years ago | (#41625441)

You can switch them in the BIOS.

Re:Thinkpad still the best laptop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41627351)

I purchased a T61P at the end of 2008. It's now 4 years later and this laptop is still great, granted it now has 8gb instead of 4 gb of ram, and an ssd drive instead of the 7200rpm drive it came with. It performs better than any desktop i've encountered at schools and it is fast enough to do 3D CFD computations.

Meanwhile, people I know who bought cheap laptops can't stand how unresponsive they feel.

Every single one of my Lenovo Laptops kicked ass (3, Interesting)

PotatoHead (12771) | about 2 years ago | (#41625171)

All of them. They remain useful until they are completely broken, thrashed, just worn the fuck out dead.

That's why they are doing well. I pay a lot for mine, run them hard, and when they are behind the curve, they get cycled home for various things, until they finally just don't work, and that process is generally painless too.

I like the matte black finish. It's not sexy, but it endures way better than the shiny, "please don't scratch it" finishes on so many machines do. Maybe starting out a little less sexy has it's advantages. Black is damn cool in my book, and there is always that little brightly colored something on the machines, sort of like a great tie on an otherwise boring business suit. Perfect.

The keyboards are a bit noisy, but I like that too. Always have. I can type and type and type until the buttons are all worn, and they just keep going great, no worries.

Heavy little buggers, if you buy the more powerful ones. If I need to clock somebody with my laptop, Lenovo is there! No worries, and I can probably post to Facebook after doing it too.

Linux is well supported across most of the machines. I love that. A Think Pad was the first machine I ran OS X on too. Worked amazingly well, and was faster than the Mac I ended up getting soon after. Gotta admit, the touch pad on the Mac is better tho, but not by much. Some Think Pad touch pads need to be worn in. Once that has happened, they work much better. Weird.

By and large, I leave most of the value added software on the machines. It works well. HP is noisy, Dell just horrible, etc.... I get a competent disc burning kit, defrag tools, etc... Nice package that actually has some real value. On my latest machine they even tossed in the nVidia 3D licenses. Didn't know that, until I connected up to a new TV for some 3D CAD tests. Nice!! That's $14.99 for most of you out there.

Funny thing is I was not a fan early on. One ended up at the house, and I started using it. By the time I got it, the machine was a bit dated, but damn if it wasn't just great to use. When it outlasted some HP thing or other, I was sold. Typically, I get a top machine for work purposes. Need big RAM / CPU, nVidia, etc... Once it's done, it goes home for micro-controller related projects. Long life cycle on these. Worth it.

And... matte finish displays that are typically nice, bright, with fine dot pitches. They've wavered a bit on these on some models as of late. Gotta be a bit picky about that, but so has everybody else. Get the better display they offer, and it's no worry.

The few times I've ordered replacement things under warranty, they shipped 'em, the work wasn't hard. Once the machine ends up at home, I find I can service it much easier than I can the HP machines, which incorporate all manner of fiddly components, glue, buttons that fail, etc... Ugh. Dell sometimes does better, and is in my mind, competitive on this front. Apple? Difficult, but then their stuff works a long time too. Fair game they are playing, but HP is just losing big on this front. Get an HP, and you better hope it works, or service might be very difficult no matter who does it.

I expected some of this to fade when IBM let go to Lenovo. Very pleased to see they've kept the bar high so far. Hoping they continue.

I'll withhold my judgement (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about 2 years ago | (#41625199)

Has Netcraft confirmed it?

Of course they're losing market share. (1)

jtownatpunk.net (245670) | about 2 years ago | (#41625817)

One day they're at the top, the next day they say they're getting out of the PC business, then they say they were just kidding about that and they're back in the PC business. If I were purchasing equipment for my company, there's no way in Hell I'd buy HP. I'm not buying computers from a company that can't decide whether or not they want to be in the business of selling me computers.

I saw Apple mentioned above so I'll touch on my feelings about them. They've made it very clear the last few years that they have no interest in the corporate or professional markets. They killed their server and RAID products years ago. That ended their footprint in IT which is how you get your equipment into the corporate world. More recently, they neutered Final Cut. They spent years building that product and actually became the go-to platform for the video production industry and now editors are scrambling to switch over to Avid before their next hardware cycle because they don't feel like they can count on Apple to produce a pro-quality application in the future.

Apple's decisions make perfect sense from a financial standpoint. IT departments are tough, demanding customers. Low margin and high maintenance. As for the professional market, Apple might sell xx,xxx copies of FCP at a thousand bucks each where they'll sell xxx,xxx copies of FCX at $300 to casual users. Companies and professionals tend to spend once and use their equipment for years before spending any more money. Casual users are a constant stream of small purchases through itunes, peripherals, phones, etc. The "lifestyle" customer is a steadier flow of income from multiple streams.

Re:Of course they're losing market share. (1)

erp_consultant (2614861) | about 2 years ago | (#41627751)

Absolutely right about HP. I wouldn't buy anything from them until they decide what kind of company they want to be and start showing us some of the great products they used to make but somehow lost their way.

As for Apple I can't quite figure out what they are doing with their laptops these days. I've got a MacBook Pro that's about 4 years old (still running Snow Leopard) and it's hands down the best laptop I have ever owned. But you know what? I don't want to buy a new one. They are nice machines but you can't upgrade them. Everything is soldered on to the board. The one I have now I've been able to add memory to and upgrade it to an SSD which has extended the life of it. It's still fast and smooth but eventually the screen will die or the logic board or something that costs too much to fix and I'll have to get another laptop.

At this point I'm leaning towards a Lenovo. Many years ago I worked for a place that issued me a ThinkPad and that thing was solid. Great keyboard and very reliable. Probably the best "Windows" laptop that I've had. But on the Lenovo I'd put Linux and get rid of Windows 8.

Selling themselves up the creek (1)

OhANameWhatName (2688401) | about 2 years ago | (#41625965)

I know a chap who purchased a HP 17" widescreen laptop a few years back. About a month after the warranty expired, HP sent through a BIOS update which bricked the entire machine. He called HP support and said "Your update bricked my laptop" .. support's response "Your machine is out of warranty, that's going to cost $1200 to repair". When you stop caring about your core business to save money or make a little extra cash on the side, well .. there's no turning back. HP have lost the trust.

HP is shit. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#41629623)

I had a business-class HP 17", an EliteBook no less. It had the QuadroFX die bonding failure. In spite of it having a replaceable video card, HP had no replacement. (If you design a machine with an MXM slot, you are a stupid fuck. What a waste of money. Put the GPU onboard.) HP sent out a contract tech twice. Failed to fix it the first time, machine wouldn't even boot after his second visit. Took over 24 hours on the phone total to get a replacement machine. They sent me a significantly upgraded machine. I sold it immediately, and bought three netbooks. EEE701, fantastic. Acer Aspire, fantastic. Gateway LT series, I'm an idiot. The other two machines are still making me happy though.

X220 lured me back from fanboi-ism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41626639)

Wonderful little lappy. Hard as nails and Ubuntu installs perfectly, _everything_ works ootb.
Even makes Windows7 enjoyable and I'm really looking forward to a clean W8 install next month!

I always thought I'd never buy a not-mac. Now I can't imagine not buying Lenovo

Good fucking riddance (1)

atari2600a (1892574) | about 2 years ago | (#41626747)

Fixing a Lenovo or a thinkpad is a quick buck. Fixing an HP is an ordeal. Why's it have to be so complicated; All I wanted to do was clean the fan!

A lot of verbiage (1)

fafaforza (248976) | about 2 years ago | (#41627009)

A lot of verbiage to say something simple. Lenovo controls a slightly smaller percentage of the market, but their shipments increased 10% while HP's decreased 16% (info somewhat from memory, read an article about this earlier today). So make your own conclusions. This "not so fast... this other guy says..." nonsense is just silly.

Dell (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41628033)

It's still not Dell?

One Month Delays for Laptop Orders... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41630505)

If Lenovo is now the top dog, they need to get their supply chain management issues under control quickly. I bought a new laptop on 9/21 and yesterday I received a notice saying that the laptop will most likely be delayed until 10/21.

This sounds like the type of issue HP would have so I guess Lenovo really has taken over....

Repairs (1)

helix2301 (1105613) | about 2 years ago | (#41630539)

If this is the case how come I never get any in for repairs? Is the quality better? Are they more popular in commercial industry then in consumer? If thats the case why do I not see any businesses with Lenovo's?

Thinkpads rule (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41631301)

Wouldn't touch an HP with a 10 foot clown pole.

  but I love me some thinkpads.

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