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Teen Suicide Tormentor Outed By Anonymous

Soulskill posted about a year and a half ago | from the what-if-you're-wrong dept.

Crime 550

MightyMartian writes "From the CBC: 'The tragic story of B.C. teen suicide victim Amanda Todd has taken another bizarre twist as the internet hacking and activist group Anonymous has named a man the group says was the girl's primary tormentor. Todd, 15, of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia, died last Wednesday, a month after posting a haunting video on YouTube that cited the sexualized attack that set her down a path of anxiety, depression and drug and alcohol abuse.' This raises a whole nest of issues surrounding the presumption of innocence and vigilantism. Should the police and the courts be given the appropriate amount of time to determine if there is sufficient evidence, or if a crime has in fact been committed, or is Anonymous right in short-circuiting what might in fact be a lengthy process with no guarantee that anyone will face charges?"

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550 comments

It's all tied together (-1, Troll)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674695)

This is rape and murder [blogspot.com] . Maybe not by society's definition. Maybe not by the liberalized culture that thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun. Or that consent is always equivalent to permission. So as much as I consider what anonymous has done to be vigilantism; one cannot say that this man, or the teenage boy, or any of the rest of this poor girl's tormentors are innocent.

It's all tied together. Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this. The only thing left to do is learn from it instead of repeating the same mistakes as the hippie generation.

Re:It's all tied together (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674765)

You forgot to blame Hitler, comic books, rock and roll, D&D, and video games.

Re:It's all tied together (5, Insightful)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674779)

Excuse me? Since when has religion had much to do with morality? It's about peer influence. The change here is the perceived anonymity of the internet. The belief the is not god has been around long before then belief in any god. I don't know what your quip about Atheism is based on.

Re:It's all tied together (5, Insightful)

archatheist (316491) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674783)

Atheism leads to this.

I'm pretty sure you don't need to believe in God to consider rape and murder unethical, immoral, and just wrong. In fact, plenty of people have pointed out (repeatedly) the fallacy of assuming that one needs God and/or religion to be good, so there is no reason to say more on that topic here. Go forth and Google.

The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this.

I'm not sure what the "culture of contraception" is, but I am pretty sure it does not lead to this kind of behavior, either. In fact, I strongly suspect this behavior - in general, minus the Internet - predates the widespread availability of contraception.

Re:It's all tied together (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675145)

I'm pretty sure you don't need to believe in God to consider rape and murder unethical, immoral, and just wrong.

Pretty much. If fear of God is all that keep you you from doing bad things then you are not a good person.

Re:It's all tied together (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674787)

Child porn (aka the picture of Amanda's breasts) is a felony. Her death was caused by that felony. Does that make it felony murder? (Yes, I know - she was Canadian and the laws aren't the same in Canada...)

Re:It's all tied together (2)

Em Adespoton (792954) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675319)

Raises a good point though... Facebook was hosting/linking to child porn for an extended period, and letting people comment on it. Facebook is located in the US.

Re:It's all tied together (4, Insightful)

TehCable (1351775) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674789)

Atheism leads to this.

What does Atheism have to do with any of this? Because I don't believe there's an invisible man in the sky means I don't have any morals?

Re:It's all tied together (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674811)

Premarital sex is rape? Consensual one nighter is rape ? By my narrow definition and self granted rights, I declare you an idiot. You can't judge me, I'm just expressing my opinion like you are. Welcome to the band wagon 'mate.

Re:It's all tied together (1, Insightful)

Soilworker (795251) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674981)

You wouldn't believe how many women consider consensual one nighter as rape when it involve alcohol (even when both are affected). They somewhat think that remorse is equivalent to being forced to,

Re:It's all tied together (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674813)

Note that I'm supported this critical response in the same manner that you supported your assertion (as in not at all). Your thesis is bullshit.

Re:It's all tied together (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674845)

Voting in a Republican and A Christian leads to this. If we had a woman Neo Pagan in the white house it would have never happened.

Dont believe me? during the downward spiral of the USA EVERY SINGLE president has been a Christian! The evidence is there! It's a conspiracy!

Hey it makes as much sense as the rest of the nutjobs out there.....

Re:It's all tied together (5, Insightful)

ClintJCL (264898) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674867)

I'd take the partially opposing perspective that Christianity and moralism are responsible for making it so that a) it's somehow "evil" to see someone's breasts, b) if a girl shows her breasts, she is a slut and a whore and should be ashamed of herself and do whatever it takes to have no one find out about it, c) if someone has a naked picture of you, they have some sort of power over you, because boobies are evil and we all should be ashamed of our beautiful bodies.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

couchslug (175151) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675159)

Superstition which relies on guilt to control people NEEDS them to do many things ("sins") for it to leverage.

Superstitionists refuse to PROVE their Sky Fairie exists, so those accepting their definitions of "sin" are just taking their word for it.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675161)

As is usually the case, religion is simply the vehicle by which cultural values are expressed. About three quarters of sexually liberal Sweden would be Christian. In this case the moratorium on female nipples comes from a desire to control rather than any particular piety. What exactly is being controlled I leave as an exercise for the reader to determine.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

ClintJCL (264898) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675219)

I'd really want to take a weighted average, where how christian you are comes into play. There are people who say they are a religion, and there are people who take that religion very seriously. I'd think the Christians here are more, uhm... "Christiany"... than over there. Maybe evangelical is the word I'm looking for, but maybe not. Halp.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675365)

Are they more Christian or simply more evangelical about exporting their cultural values wherever possible though, spreading their sphere of control? While its true that religion influences culture, to a great extent the opposite is true as well. Even within Catholicism, ostensibly a single bloc, the rites for saying mass and attitudes of the clergy can vary wildly from country to country.

Re:It's all tied together (3, Insightful)

LordLucless (582312) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675351)

That's not Christianity; that's Puritanism, which is (or was) a distinct sect within Christianity, heavily influenced by asceticism, which is a non-religious philosophy. Americans probably have a higher correlation between Christianity and Puritansim, as many of their initial settlers were Puritans getting the hell out of England, but it's still a false equivalency. It's like saying that all atheists believe life came about due to extra-terrestrial contact, just because Erich von Däniken is an atheist.

Re:It's all tied together (4, Insightful)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675393)

b) if a girl shows her breasts, she is a slut and a whore and should be ashamed of herself and do whatever it takes to have no one find out about it,

More generally, I'm also perplexed by the social double-standard where men who have (had) multiple sex-partners (or are sexually aggressive, for lack of a better word) are "studs", but women are "sluts". Seems like a bunch of misogynistic bullshit from insecure men to make women feel second-rate. (I'm a guy, by the way.)

Re:It's all tied together (5, Funny)

Rockoon (1252108) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675453)

More generally, I'm also perplexed by the social double-standard where men who have (had) multiple sex-partners (or are sexually aggressive, for lack of a better word) are "studs", but women are "sluts".

Women call women who sleep around sluts. Men just call them.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

fredprado (2569351) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675489)

This idea has complex social and biological origins and is not totally absurd. Men and Women are quite different in some things, even though they are quite alike in many others.

Re:It's all tied together (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674871)

ok.

"tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts" Yeah she did that willingly before any of this started. It's called "being an attention whore".

"Atheism leads to this." Rofl, so not believing in a sky man leads to cyberbullying. OK. Because religious people NEVER ostracize or demonize people based on their sexuality.

"The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this." Yeah, if there were no condoms, then she would probably be an Olympic athlete or physicist! IMAGINE what could happen in a world without latex!

Also, this is probably more akin to a human sacrifice than 'murder' per se. Reminds me of the South Park episode where they sacrifice a celebrity for the crops.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

hazah (807503) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674897)

Yes, cause you know, no priest was ever found to do the same thing. Get real, neither atheism nor religion is at the core of a sick psyche. Get your head out of your ass.

Re:It's all tied together (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674913)

This is rape and murder [blogspot.com] . Maybe not by society's definition. Maybe not by the liberalized culture that thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun. Or that consent is always equivalent to permission. So as much as I consider what anonymous has done to be vigilantism; one cannot say that this man, or the teenage boy, or any of the rest of this poor girl's tormentors are innocent.

It's all tied together. Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this. The only thing left to do is learn from it instead of repeating the same mistakes as the hippie generation.

Emphasis mine... you were doing so well up until this point. Straw man fallacy. Atheism does not lead to this. Amorality leads to this. It is 100% possible to be an atheist with morals. In fact, I can list thousands of amoral things organized religion has done to the world. (Inquisition, Jihad, etc.) Your argument is bullshit.

Consent and contraception leads to healthy, happy relationships without unwanted children to screw things up. Those allow you to adequately plan for your child's future, save up for their lives, and be prepared for when they actually arrive. With consent and contraception, you have the opportunity to provide a better, properly planned life instead of one that leads to divorce, single-parent homes and priests molesting children. (See? I can straw-man too!)

Remember: Treat your religion like your penis. Don't whip it out every chance you get, and please don't jam it down my throat. Because that would be gay. And we all know what you extremist religious types feel about gayness.

Re:It's all tied together (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674945)

And I done screwed up. I don't mean amoral. I meant immoral. Sorry, it's been a long week, and it's only Tuesday.

Re:It's all tied together (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675135)

Treat your religion like your penis. Don't whip it out every chance you get, and please don't jam it down my throat.

And particularly please don't traumatize kids with it.

Re:It's all tied together (4, Insightful)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674931)

This is rape and murder [blogspot.com]. Maybe not by society's definition.

So then it's not rape and murder.* What other definition actually counts for anything?

Maybe not by the liberalized culture that thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun.

Also not by any level-headed person including those who do think that tricking a 14 year old into exposing herself is a hideous thing to do.

From the page you linked to:

Thus, homosexuality is rape. Thus, one night heterosexual stands are rape. Thus, premarital sex, even with "consent", is rape.

Confirmed: you are an idiot. Doubly so if you actually wrote that and don't just agree with it.

Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this.

No, no, and no. You know what leads to this? Humans. We are all (including the Pope, no matter what the Catholics are told to believe) fallible. We do some shitty things sometimes, and just as many of those things have been in the name of a god as not. Grow out of talking to your imaginary friend and take some collective responsibility along with the rest of us soul-less animals.

Also, find a friend to get laid with. It's awesome!

*Disclaimer: I do think that what happened to this poor girl is terrible and those responsible should face the full force of the law, such as it is. I just decided to focus more on this poster for being a cock-womble.

Re:It's all tied together (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674987)

Atheism does not lead to this. In fact, statistics say these tormentors were Christians. Atheists can still have morales, they just do not need to attribute them to an angry god to apply them to their life.

"Culture of contraceptives"? Really? Teenagers have desires, impulses and a lack of experience in controlling the same, and no matter how much you want to push your conservative agenda of abstention, statistics also show they won't comply. You do NOT get to tell other people how to live. If your kid decides to go against your religious wishes, which would you rather have? A stern and harsh talk about pre-marital sex, or a bill for the delivery of your grand child? You can raise your kids how you want to, but if you even TRY to prevent mine from being able to buy condoms, you are violating my rights and the rights of my children.

Re:It's all tied together (1, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675141)

Its a lot easier to be moral when you don't have to follow the teachings of stone age goat diddling, child molesting, genocidal maniacs aka Christians, Muslims and Jews. Read the bible sometime, see the sick and twisted shit that they worship.

Re:It's all tied together (2)

archatheist (316491) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674995)

Okay. I read your blog post at the link. Your definition of rape omits the concept of consent, and randomly includes premarital sex (which would fit the definition in the first line) and homosexuality. Good luck with your mimeographed newsletter; I shall file you under "troll" and carry on. I sine Deus.

Re:It's all tied together (2)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675029)

The culture of consent led to this?!?!?!

Are you saying that what we need is NON-consent?

By the way, asshole - it was a culture that UNDERVALUES female's consent that led to this.

She did not consent, yet all over the web you'll see on every news site thousands of comments blaming HER for creating the problem.

But she didn't. She did NOT CONSENT. But when females don't consent, there are always plenty of males who don't give a fuck and proceed to harass and abuse and insult and sexualize and objectify anyway.

Re:It's all tied together (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675093)

Jolly good show! And a Happy TT to all!

Re:It's all tied together (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675113)

This is rape and murder [blogspot.com]. [...] thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun. Or that consent is always equivalent to permission.

Here hear. I could not agree more.

It's all tied together. Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this. The only thing left to do is learn from it instead of repeating the same mistakes as the hippie generation.

Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you.

FUCK.

YOU.

Re:It's all tied together (4, Informative)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675165)

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
        So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
        They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings â" Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba â" died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

        Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
          As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

---

Oh yea.... religion is really against rape except for young women who are untouched by man.

Re:It's all tied together (0, Offtopic)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675187)

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
        Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

I'm probably being unfair. This religion only represents about 1/6 of the worlds population and is the likely religion of the parent poster. There are probably many religions which are actually against rape.

Re:It's all tied together (2, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675205)

This rape is commanded and approved by the deity and major priests.

Don't get me started on what they do to "suckling babes" who don't follow the religion. It's not pretty. The character Yahweh is one evil, psychotic, amoral, sadistic, narcissitic bastard and/or he considers humans to be about as important as we consider ants. I have no problem kicking over an ant hill.

Then again, I don't talk to them and control their affairs on a personal basis either.

For great justice... maybe? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674739)

If you're going to try to punish someone for a crime (and make no mistake, naming the man is meant to be a punishment), you'd better make damn sure you get the right person.

For all the problems of the legal system, it is decent at that -- far from perfect, but probably better than some random anonymice.

Re:For great justice... maybe? (1)

aliquis (678370) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674805)

I guess as long as it's the truth which is being sad that yeah, it suck to be the person feeling under threat, but that person isn't without guilt either so.

But the system is supposed to handle it and not the people.

Hope he's the right guy (1)

ScooterComputer (10306) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674769)

Hope he's the right guy. If not, even if he is a piece of shit otherwise (and all signs point to "Yes!"), he's about to have to endure a shit storm of epic proportion fall upon him. And that would not be fair...

If he is the right guy...I will enjoy watching him self-destruct.

Outing is not the best solution (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674775)

Anonymous could have blood on their hands if the outrage becomes a lynch mob. I have no sympathy for the man, but the internet is a kangaroo court.

Re:Outing is not the best solution (4, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674881)

"I have no sympathy for the man, but the internet is a kangaroo court."

That is an insult to Kangaroos..

The internet is a unruly mob distracted by the latest shiny.

this is intolerable (5, Insightful)

rritterson (588983) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674793)

If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency, not go public and taint both the investigation and public opinion. The detectives may have had the opportunity to seize evidence before the person knew he was under suspicion, or set up a sting operation. They'd also have the chance to clear the individual if he's innocent without the mess of threats of violence I presume this guy is now going to get.

Presuming this person is eventually charged and tried, Anonymous releasing this information can complicate the job of the prosecutor, having the opposite effect intended.

On the other hand, if this person is innocent, Anonymous just released a shitstorm on this poor guy that's going to be nearly impossible to get rid of until the police charge someone else.

I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.

Re:this is intolerable (0)

vux984 (928602) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674885)

I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.

How about the situation where the crime would have been ignored and forgotten if they hadn't done what they did?

Going public is a time honored method to get those that enforce the law to pay attention to a particular crime or injustice.

That said, I agree with you that forwarding evidence to the police first is probably generally the best course of action.

Re:this is intolerable (3, Insightful)

houghi (78078) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675149)

How about the situation where the crime would have been ignored and forgotten if they hadn't done what they did?

Having a justice system that fails sometimes is better then no justice system at all.
Yes, mistakes will be made. Yes, guilty people will be set free or never be charged. A small price to pay (even if that means some people die) then to have no system at all.

Letting Anonymous be the judge and jury means having no system at all. Telling a person is guilty without due process is not a good thing, no matter how you look at it.

Re:this is intolerable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675235)

Having a justice system that fails sometimes is better then no justice system at all.

I disagree. I'd rather be required to defend myself from random evil-doers than having to defend myself against an entire government of them.

Re:this is intolerable (5, Insightful)

sumdumass (711423) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675167)

How about the situation where the crime would have been ignored and forgotten if they hadn't done what they did?

How about the situation where a prosecution cannot be successful now. A clear line of defense is- all your evidence was planted by a group of hackers upset because I made an indecent comment about them or the recently deceased. We already know they "hacked" into things to get the information and make their declarations. I'm betting that most all evidence against him outside of a confession could be tossed aside as not reliable now. No one from anonymous would be likely to come out and admit it was them and ensure the evidence is legit.

Re:this is intolerable (2)

timeOday (582209) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675385)

How about the situation where the crime would have been ignored and forgotten if they hadn't done what they did?

Because society is so accepting of child sexual abuse? According to the story the police have two dozen investigators assigned to this case!

Re:this is intolerable (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674891)

If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency, not go public and taint both the investigation and public opinion. The detectives may have had the opportunity to seize evidence before the person knew he was under suspicion, or set up a sting operation. They'd also have the chance to clear the individual if he's innocent without the mess of threats of violence I presume this guy is now going to get.

Presuming this person is eventually charged and tried, Anonymous releasing this information can complicate the job of the prosecutor, having the opposite effect intended.

On the other hand, if this person is innocent, Anonymous just released a shitstorm on this poor guy that's going to be nearly impossible to get rid of until the police charge someone else.

I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.

If they have incontrovertible proof that this is the right guy - THEN FUCK HIM UP THE ASS WITH A TELEPHONE POLE TIL HE BLEEDS OUT HIS EYEBALLS

I have no sympathy for those that prey on children. None.

That being said, if member of Anonymous broke the law to nail this guy, then they also deserve whatever punishment is prescribed for their transgressions.

Re:this is intolerable (2)

Spaseboy (185521) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675181)

Anonymous is not one person, nor a group in one country. Let's be realistic here. Expecting a citizen of one country to know, follow and respect the laws of another country simply because you think that's the "right thing" is asinine at best.

Re:this is intolerable (1)

bug1 (96678) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675265)

**** HIM UP THE *** WITH A TELEPHONE POLE TIL HE BLEEDS OUT HIS EYEBALLS

(edited by me)

So here we have the problem, this "Anonymous Coward" is ready to form a cyber lynchmod against this single cyberbully. To get some revenge for a tragic loss for people he doesnt even know, maybe evne push this allegedy bully over the edge.

Dont blame this kid that has been outed, yet.
Dont blame anonymous for not being the police.
Dont be the police.
Dont be the judge.

Let the legal system do its job, the yare experts, you are not.
When all is said and done them you get your turn.
Until then, your all part of the problem.

Re:this is intolerable (1)

gnoshi (314933) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674951)

If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency, not go public and taint both the investigation and public opinion. The detectives may have had the opportunity to seize evidence before the person knew he was under suspicion, or set up a sting operation.

I absolutely agree with this, particularly since I don't imagine the 'evidence' gathered by Anonymous would be admissible in court. If this is the case, then police would need to be able to gather their own evidence in order to prosecute.
In addition, if the actions of Anonymous make it possible for the man to claim he is unable to receive a fair trial due to jury prejudice (if indeed he is charged) then they will have just ruined an opportunity to see if the legal system can deal with cases like this appropriately. An example of the system handling this type of case well could have encouraged others to come forward in future.

If the police fail to act in a way which satisfies 'Anonymous', it isn't like they are cut off from releasing the information themselves anyway.

Re:this is intolerable (1)

Spaseboy (185521) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675221)

"The system" is not some magical entity with all the right answers or outcome. It lets people off that are guilty and convicts people who are innocent. Justice is not arbitrary, that's why laws are different in every country, state and city and also why they change so often. If you are looking for "justice" as opposed to "procedure" than you have to admit that Anonymous has just as much chance at justice as the system.

Re:this is intolerable (5, Insightful)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675035)

I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.

The folks who identify themselves as Anonymous don't care. If they cut off income for thousands of merchants just to send a message to MasterCard, they call it a victory.

The actions of Anonymous aren't based in righteous concern for society. Rather, they're displays of overwhelming power trumping society's established systems, with a thin veneer of altruism to stave off any guilt.

Anonymous members aren't educated in ethics. They don't have any consequences for destroying someone's life. Anonymous enjoys the power of crowdsourced intelligence and abilities, without the responsibility that comes from actually caring for everyone fairly. An appropriate analogy is a newly-empowered dictator. He enjoys the support of the people because he's popular, and now he can kill anyone he wants for the good of the country.

Re:this is intolerable (1)

RoknrolZombie (2504888) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675125)

Anonymous members aren't educated in ethics.

I agree with your sentiment, but this here ^ - yeah, bank CEOs and politicians ARE educated in ethics, kind of a requirement for all of the education that they need. Has that made their respective industries more ethical, do you think?

Re:this is intolerable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675259)

The folks who identify themselves as Anonymous don't care. If they cut off income for thousands of merchants just to send a message to MasterCard, they call it a victory.

Of course they do. If the intent is to punish MasterCard then anyone who uses MasterCards services is actively working against you. I doubt that anyone who are calling themselves Anonymous at such a time would even consider those merchants collateral damage, they are just as much the target as MasterCard are.
The same reasoning is used when going after terrorists. If you manage to damage anyone supporting terrorists while you are at it you call it a win, heck you even go out of your way to do it if you get the opportunity.
If you find yourself using the services of someone who does questionable things then don't be surprised if someone consider you to be sketchy too.

Re:this is intolerable (5, Insightful)

Spaseboy (185521) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675287)

From Wikipedia:
"The French Revolution (French: Révolution française; 1789–1799), was a period of radical social and political upheaval in France that had a major impact on France and throughout the rest of Europe. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation, as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from radical left-wing political groups, masses on the streets, and peasants in the countryside. Old ideas about tradition and hierarchy – of monarchy, aristocracy, and religious authority – were abruptly overthrown by new Enlightenment principles of equality, citizenship and inalienable rights."

Now, do you think that the upheaval of the aristocracy was sugar cookies and lemonade for the economy of France? What about all the merchants employed by the Aristocracy? How evil of those revolutionaries to do such a thing to the Aristocracy because it affected merchants!

Re:this is intolerable (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675477)

The actions of Anonymous aren't based in righteous concern for society. Rather, they're displays of overwhelming power trumping society's established systems, with a thin veneer of altruism to stave off any guilt.

Anonymous members aren't educated in ethics. They don't have any consequences for destroying someone's life. Anonymous enjoys the power of crowd-sourced intelligence and abilities, without the responsibility that comes from actually caring for everyone fairly.

Nice knowing you. :-)
[ Though, that would actually demonstrate your point quite neatly... ]

Re:this is intolerable (4, Insightful)

v1 (525388) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675445)

If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency

Problem there is that evidence was (considering the source) almost certainly obtained through illegal action. (hacking) This cause three immediate problems. 1. most legal systems spoil evidence that has been obtained through illegal actions, 2. it may make assembling an unspoiled jury (that has not been exposed to the tainted evidence) difficult, and 3. it may make the same evidence, obtained through legal means, more difficult or impossible to bring to court.

The laws concerning spoilage of evidence are made to protect the innocent, but are most frequently called upon to protect the guilty. That's the unfortunate part of it. To protect the 1% of the innocent, the 99% of the guilty must go free. Love it or hate it? You'll probably hate it, until you're the 1%.

Re:this is intolerable (1)

History's Coming To (1059484) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675491)

Playing devil's advocate here:

If they handed the information over to the authorities, and presuming the guy did everything he's being accused of, then he would probably face a civilized court case, maybe be convicted, depending on the funding available to him, and probably serve a few months or years before being released into a new identity. I can understand why some would consider this to be insufficient punishment, so we're seeing a short-term terror campaign instead. IF they're right then I can't help but feel a little sympathetic to the principle, however it is both likely illegal, likely to prejudice legal process and could very conceivably lead to a greater crime (mob lynching etc) taking place.

Yes and no (4, Insightful)

BeanThere (28381) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674795)

Should the police and the courts be given the appropriate amount of time to determine if there is sufficient evidence, or if a crime has in fact been committed

In theory yes, but the problem with bullying is that the legal system doesn't protect it sufficiently .. there is this double standard. The exact same behaviors that would be considered criminal just a few years later is dismissed as 'normal' (and you're told to 'ignore it') at school level. This is primarily when vigilantism becomes attractive - when the formal justice system fails to protect victims.

What should happen is that more forms of bullying should be criminalized, and the penalties should be harsher - e.g. physical assault should be treated more often as an adult crime and teens should be tried as adults for committing physical assault. And as with committing crime as an adult, there should be harsher consequences that follow you through life. Currently when leaving school, there are no negative consequences for bullies at all - not even a modicum of shame in the workplace (this is why I support more 'name and shame' efforts for even past bullies).

Unfortunately, much like battered wife syndrome, without formal recourse, desperate victims are sometimes forced and driven to either tragically commit suicide, or occasionally, take out their own tormentors in the worst cases (e.g. some school shootings). At least in the latter, if there is a silver lining, it's that there is some manner of repercussion for the perpetrators - that is what is sorely needed.

Re:Yes and no (4, Insightful)

Spaseboy (185521) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675343)

And all adulteresses should be forced to wear a scarlet "A"!

Children are not fully-formed adults, we can't treat them as such. They do not have full control over their lives as adults do. If you believe that children should be treated as adults than whatever age you believe that begins they should be allowed to drink, smoke, gamble and vote.

You can't have it both ways.

I'm worried that someone asks (5, Insightful)

rduke15 (721841) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674803)

Is this serious? Is someone on /. really wondering if it is better to let the police and the judiciary sytem decide if someone committed a crime and who it was, or just let anonymous (!) people do justice on their own?

Are people really nostalgic of the good old days of lynching etc.?

Re:I'm worried that someone asks (0, Flamebait)

QuasiSteve (2042606) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675123)

Are people really nostalgic of the good old days of lynching etc.?

I'm not sure if that question was intended to be serious - but it very well should be.

Just looking at general reactions to convictions etc. here in NL, I would say that people are indeed nostalgic to it.

A pedosexual, for example, should quite literally be lynched as far as the vocal commenting-at-news-websites people appear to be concerned. No matter the sentence, it is never severe enough - but death penalty would be too easy. If in jail, it is hoped they get brutally killed there. If they get out, it is hoped they get brutally killed as soon as they step outside the gates. If they evade that, it is hoped that they will never be able to live anywhere, ever, again (one municipality already refused to assign housing to a convicted pedosexual, for example). There is no "they did the time, justice was served" feeling there.

That's an extreme. More mild, then... recently there was a 'Project X' type thing up north that got out of hand, with kids rioting, stealing stuff, etc. Of those who have appeared before judges so far, the vast majority got off with community work or maybe a small fine. The residents, shopkeepers, etc. screamed bloody murder and felt like the sentences should have been way higher, or that they had wished they had used that pipe to break their legs on the night in question after all. Some in a discussion panel even said that anybody who was there during the riots (instead of saying "I don't want to be anywhere near this" and leaving), should be part of a group of people who get fined by default - even if they didn't actually do anything themselves; guilt by association.

You can see some of it in comments at Slashdot as well when comparisons are made between pirating/hacking/etc. and vicious crimes. While principally a commentary on the ridiculous height of maximum penalties for the former activities, some explanation of the penalties for the latter activities tends to leave people's jaw firmly dropped to the floor as well, and wondering why on Earth people are let off so easily.

A lot of people do seem to feel that 'justice' is not being served. As such, it's not too surprising that many feel that vigilantism is an appropriate answer; short-term they get to deliver their own justice, and long-term it may force the government's hand to provide harsher sentencing options.

Revenge? (5, Insightful)

dimeglio (456244) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674809)

What Anonymous is doing is called revenge. Revenge is not justice.

Re:Revenge? (5, Insightful)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674909)

It's more of a tragedy, that despite this great connected world, the girl was not able to find help, or help was not able to find her, before things went that far.

Revenge won't help her now.

Re:Revenge? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674923)

You are correct, but it's really sweet tasting. Far more sweet tasting than the bile you get from the courts labelled as justice.... If this is the guy, and he is dragged through the streets until dead, There will be far more closure to the family that lost their little girl, than him getting a nice "I'm crazy" verdict and living in a medical institution...

Although shipping him to the USA to be butt rapped daily by big bad bubba also has a very sweet taste to it as far as revenge goes....

Justice isn't justice either. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675103)

Of course it is, that is how the entire justice system works presently:

1) some dude kills someone
2) he is caught
3) named, shamed, imprisoned by the public (I say public, a random set of usually moronic people with the IQ of 5 rocks, even 5 might be generous)
4) family: "yeah he gets what he deserves, let him rot and die so nobody else has to suffer his evil ways!"
5) suffers prison and a lengthy time getting his own life back in order
6) ends up being a criminal again since prisons don't do shit to reform people

If anything, the justice system of today is worse than lynching. Even if they get the wrong guy, it'll still put off more than 90% of people from doing a crime. (more so today, people are far more scared of being caught for serious things especially because it is so much easier to find people)
Whereas even if a innocent person gets put in prison, often times they end up turning bad as well, or even get killed.
Innocent people get imprisoned to fuck and back all the time. And the crap they suffer most times in these prisons is worse than death.
And when people get away with things all the time, when MURDERERS get off free in an absolutely tiny time compared to the times people who download a fucking song who get stupid sentences and fines, yeah, no, fuck that. The justice system is shit. (note, speaking mainly of the US, other countries actually spend the money and time to reform people instead of throwing them in the trash)

Things like this happen literally ALL the time. Police don't do shit, so communities get together and take care of their business their own ways.
Groups of parents, friends, whatever, all of them get together if it means solving a "problem."
And it happens far more than you think. It isn't just something that "happens on da TV!", it actually does happen.
Anyone who actually has a life and speaks to people will know this. (unless they live in fancy land where no crime exists)
And the funny thing is it was this lack of policing that resulted in Lynch Mobs in the first place. The people taking care of their own problems.
History is never without a sense of irony. It is doomed to repeat itself. It is literally a rule it cannot stray from.

Re:Justice isn't justice either. (1)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675267)

Things like this happen literally ALL the time.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Re:Justice isn't justice either. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675361)

I am sure he does. I for one do.

Parallel story - reddit 'troll' outed by gawker (1)

QuasiSteve (2042606) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674835)

A parallel story, not related to the case in question, but another instance of somebody being outed for their (in)actions:
http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web [gawker.com]

The person in that story might be a bit more on the verge of the defensible than those who would directly target a specific person - minor or otherwise - such as the one covered here.

Also related (1)

Tailhook (98486) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675095)

Another related story about people being exposed appeared on Slashdot [slashdot.org] a few days ago. Fortunately that one had a happy ending (no pun intended): the names were published [dailymail.co.uk] . The First Amendment survives another brush with the false dignity of the powerful.

Jumping on the vigilante wagon seems wrong (2)

skabob (826380) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674853)

Even if this is the right guy and the accuser was of sound mind, I'd prefer the law would handle this rather than Anonymous. Vigilante justice is fun and all, but how far from throwing acid on people or stonings is this?

No honor among trolls? (1, Insightful)

Hentes (2461350) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674859)

And should we trust Anonymous on this one? What if they are just covering for one of their own?

Re:No honor among trolls? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674927)

tormenting people online?
mocking the dead?

that doesn't sound anything like the anonymous that I know

Re:No honor among trolls? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675047)

Seriously, if you've been to 4chan's /b/ the past week, you'd see a thread at all times continuing to tease and make fun of Amanda. Now, "Anonymous" the hacker collective != "Anonymous" the hivemind that posts on 4chan, but no one can deny the huge overlap in catch phrases, slogans, images used and even political ideology. Which is why this hacker collective doomed itself in the first place, by always keeping a familial association with /b/tards, more than likely they've just outted one of their kin (assuming they got the right guy).

Opinions... (1)

skelly33 (891182) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674869)

... everyone has one, and Anonymous is no exception. Absent a gag order, due process has historically done little to thwart the expression of opinions or free speech, regardless of basis in fact/truth (or lack thereof). AFAIC, provided that they don't pose an obstruction of justice or investigation, Anonymous can discuss whoever they want whenever they want regarding public concerns - that alone does not make them vigilantes. Vigilantes are the ones who haphazardly take action. Speech is not action... hence the expression: actions speak louder than words...

I suppose the greatest risk here is the potential for ruinous libel of their target if they end up being wrong. Would Anonymous apologize or write a check?

I hope they're right (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674893)

These articles have been circling since yesterday.

The problem with vigilante justice is that it's tough to expect reasoned response when you show-up at someone's door with pitchforks and torches. I hope they're right and this tip-off helps lead to an investigation, trial, and punishment that fits the crime for taking advantage of a teen, but in an online world where everyone's an expert cyber-sleuth it only takes one emotionally-charged person to believe the wrong thing online and do something horrible.

The police are around for a reason. It's not that they're better investigators, it's that they have the mandate to do what's right and reasonable instead of popular and frenzied. Let them do their job before laying judgement.

Due Process (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674899)

The primary issue with due process is that it is set up in order to preserve the life of an innocent person, at the cost of letting 9 guilty people go free. When you find yourself at the end of a legal cannon, you will be very happy for every line written that the system must jump through in order to prosecute you, legally.

Unfortunately, the worst of us know how to use this system to benefit themselves, and so as the web is drawn tighter, they simply make themselves more slippery until eventually the spiders are trapped and only the flies know the way out of the web. The genie is out of the bottle for these, crooks, though so a hard reset of the tort system won't fix anything. We're stuck with what we have and it is ever-worsening.

In comes vigilantism. They don't worry about things like "alleged" or "possible" -- they deal in terms of black and white -- guilty or ignored. You don't want to be at the end of a vigilante cannon -- as they lack all accountability, you lack the security of knowing that you will escape unscathed if you prove yourself to be innocent.

As with any red-tape law, before you criticize it, you must ask yourself "If a very bad political power wanted to come after me, can this law potentially be used to protect me?" The answer is almost always a sorry "yes"

crowdsourced prosecutor != crowdsourced jury (3, Interesting)

xeno (2667) | about a year and a half ago | (#41674905)

I caught a few of the threads where the apparent perp was outed, and I was very encouraged at the volume of comments that basically said 'that's enough data, now let's turn it over to the authorities.' Crowdsourcing of evidence-gathering is terribly powerful, and it's nice to see that even in a large pool of people (in a vigilante mood) the majority still have a sense that there's a line between prosecutor and jury. Sure, there are issues with naming potentially innocent people, but when the crowd refrains from attack and turns to a judicial system, it's the best we can do.

Anonymous is just the KKK incarnate. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41674993)

Anonymous is just the KKK incarnate. I love em to death, but as in the KKK which was founded to force deadbeat dads to take care of their families, Anonymous is just enjoying their moment in the sun. God Bless them every one...

Help Eliminate Stupid Speeding Tickets [wikispeedia.org]

Anyone else having a hard time feeling sorry? (-1, Flamebait)

epp_b (944299) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675009)

Yes, what happened is tragic.
Yes, the guy who talked her into exposing herself is a creep (and possibly a pedophile)

But does she really have anyone to blame but herself? Seriously, some random guy on the Internet asks her to show her tits and she does it? Really??

Additionally, "cuber-bullying" is just the next wave of technophobic, attention-grabbing idiocy by the media. People get bullied every day in school and we just expect that. But this is happening on THE INTERNET, OH NO!! .

By any measure, "cyber-bullying" is a whole lot easier to shrug off because ... well, y'know that little X in the top, right-hand corner of your chat window? Click it.

Re:Anyone else having a hard time feeling sorry? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675313)

You forget that, you know, most cases that are related to the Internet get more air time because, you know, we have to regulate the Internet. Or maybe I'm just putting two things together when they are not related. No matter, it never stopped conspiracy theorist before, why should it stop me?

Thing is, suicide isn't that bad. I mean, you die. If you're smart, you die painlessly. Afterwards? That's up to debate. Probably you won't feel anything. Certainly, you'll be better than before -- no one else will bully you, that's for sure. Those that live on, however, those have a hard time ahead. They have to deal with the mental damage* they suffered. They are not going to forget it. The same way you don't forget somebody who died, nor do soldiers forget war (and the horrors associated with it).

Overall I think parent comment has a good point. Even if it wasn't a random guy. In today's society, you just don't go around exposing yourself. If you do, well, I just hope you have an titanium will to stand your ground and resist all attacks.

And remember: information is power. Knowing what dangers you're exposing yourself to is important.

Re:Anyone else having a hard time feeling sorry? (3, Insightful)

Dr Herbert West (1357769) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675349)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that it's been a while since you've been a teenage girl. At that age peer/parental/community pressure can seem like the most crushing, overwhelming burden to ever exist in the history of the planet. This is what makes what this guy (allegedly) did so repellent-- taking advantage of those who are more emotionally vulnerable, impulsive, and irrational than they ever will be in their lives.

Sure, "you own your own actions", etc, but for some of these kids the internet is their entire community or peer group, it is much more difficult to shrug off.

It's amazing what a few years out of high school will do to restore one's perspective-- don't kill yourselves, kids, it really does get better!

Re:Anyone else having a hard time feeling sorry? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675497)

Actually I'm not, because if I were in that age range today, I would probably be someone who was bullied. I say this because when I was in Middle/High school I was bullied. The way I tried to cope with this was to essentially try to "blend in to the woodwork" and not draw attention to myself to this day. Obviously based on you remark, you were on the other side of that situation.

Anonymous has not dished out Justice (2)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675017)

They simply provided information.

"Anonymous right in short-circuiting what might in fact be a lengthy process with no guarantee that anyone will face charges?"

You would only be right to even ask that question if they set out to punished this person, they have simply acted as a journalist type group and released information about the case.

No good can come of this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675023)

Come on, what positive outcome could conceivably come from making this kid's name public? If people torment this little asswipe enough, will it bring his victim back?

Oh, right, Anonymous. They just want to watch the world burn.

Then the irony comes... (5, Insightful)

AlienSexist (686923) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675037)

So if Anonymous makes a mistake and outs the wrong person and that person becomes harassed by the public backlash to the point of committing suicide... Will Anonymous out their outer?

Re:Then the irony comes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675437)

they'll certainly send their concern trolls

But... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41675057)

...what about this precious little snowflake's (/s) parents? Why weren't they aware of what their minor daughter was doing on the internet?

My daughter was murdered.... (0, Offtopic)

Bomarc (306716) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675371)

Just over a year ago, my daughter was murdered. I was told initially, that it was suicide. Then I was told it was a bad accident. I was threatened by the police not to investigate it, or I would be charged with obstruction. Through some irregularities with her brief hospital satay, I was presented with facts that do not add up. So, I started asking the police some questions. Quickly, they stopped answering, and then lied about their responses.

I’m not just another father grieving over his suicide daughter. For those that I’ve talked to about it I just barely get into the details (19 bruises, lack of GSR, plans for the next few days – and so very much more) and I’m asked if he is still being held in prison. My answer is no: They ‘interviewed’ him twice for a total of 60 minutes, and let him leave the state. Rose was murdered in a small county, with a sheriff that refuses to investigate (or respond). I (we) cannot afford to hire a private investigator, or a PR company. The ‘big city’ news agencies will not return phone calls. How does one motivate a lazy, small hick down, with a lying sheriff to do the right thing? I know that they cannot afford to do a full “CSI” stile investigation, but dam, get the evidence that has been there for over a year. Talk to witnesses that were with her that day. Keep in reasonable contact with the family

Perhaps piggy back on another story, in hope that someone will be able to render some assistance?
Part of the story can be found here - Remember Rose French [bomarc.com]

What happened (1)

gtcodave (2581251) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675439)

Since when has evidence collected by a private individual/organisation ever been ignored by a court of law or legal party what such evidence can be verified as conclusive?

Read the question: since when..?

For justice to work, it has to work. (1)

Teunis (678244) | about a year and a half ago | (#41675483)

As much as the Vancouver area, and British Columbia in general are beautiful places, with many wonderful people - justice here isn't entirely working. Whether it's our somewhat US leaning government on the other side of the continent messing with the codes, or that BC economically crashed at the end of the 80s thanks to US interference ... things basically aren't perfect.
If you keep cutting police and keep increasing their load, coincident with cutting education and increasing their load too - no one has any time left anymore unless there's overwhelming evidence. ... and thanks to Anonymous, there's now sufficient evidence for the authorities to investigate.

I've known people who've been harassed the same ways, and justice was not found. ... and people continue to bully, harass and even sexually assault the same kinds of ways.
and we all let it happen, or even do it ourselves.
I hope they've got the guy who started it.
They're not going to touch the hundreds of people at her schools that bullied because of it - probably.
maybe they'll make it easier to find and rescue victims before it's too late. And some justice beats none.
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