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Ubuntu Isn't Becoming Less Open, Says Shuttleworth

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the frantic-flamingo dept.

Open Source 98

sfcrazy writes "While the larger Ubuntu community was busy downloading, installing and enjoying the latest edition of Ubuntu yesterday, a post by Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth ruffled some feathers. He gave the impression that from now on only select members of the community will be involved in some development and it will be announced publicly only after completion. There was some criticism of this move, and Shuttleworth responded that they are actually opening up projects being developed internally by Canonical employees instead of closing currently open projects. He also made a new blog post clarifying his previous comments: 'What I offered to do, yesterday, spontaneously, is to invite members of the community in to the things we are working on as personal projects, before we are ready to share them. This would mean that there was even less of Ubuntu that was NOT shaped and polished by folk other than Canonical – a move that one would think would be well received. This would make Canonical even more transparent.'"

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Ubuntu can fuck off (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41710849)

Ubuntu ruined Linux on the desktop. Also he sucks Amazon cock. Amazon supports software patents such as 1-Click that hurt Linux. Anyone still using Ubuntu should be stripped of their Linux-card.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41710859)

Huh? How does the 1-Click patent hurt Linux?

Term Spam (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711027)

Does the term(iny) SPAM mean anything to you?

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (1, Insightful)

poet (8021) | about 2 years ago | (#41710955)

Said the Anonymous Coward.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41710979)

Says the pseudo-anonymous coward.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (3, Informative)

Tough Love (215404) | about 2 years ago | (#41711653)

My recent experience installing Ubuntu from a live USB stick was good. It's true, I can't stand Unity, but I just boot to it once then install kubuntu-desktop right away. This was on a brand new Ivy bridge machine, and everything just worked, including sound, 3D acceleration (of the lame itegrated 6 core GPU) and suspend. As opposed to the Debian live boot, which did not manage to bring up eth0. I love Debian and I use it on servers but this time Ubuntu solved my problem and Debian was just lagging too far behind.

I have whined about Ubuntu in the past, and it does have its warts, but the bottom line is, it's a damn slick package and that's not even considering the price: free.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (1)

loufoque (1400831) | about 2 years ago | (#41713757)

Is that a case of a noob comparing ubuntu with debian stable again?
Use debian testing or unstable.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41715649)

If they're using Ubuntu, I think it's already settled, they're a noob.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (1)

Tough Love (215404) | about 2 years ago | (#41715663)

Is that a case of a noob comparing ubuntu with debian stable again?

Far from it. OK, feel free to go ahead and demonstrate your leet skillz by making a live USB boot stick with Sid. Let me know when you've got your QA done.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (2)

dudpixel (1429789) | about 2 years ago | (#41719307)

I see this argument from time to time.

Regardless of the merits of any system, if some OS enables a "noob" to do the same things as a "leet" and in less time, then in my opinion it is superior. Of course, horses for courses and all that kind of thing, but if you're using debian to do things that are easier to do in ubuntu, then you're just wasting effort.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41715397)

I don't know if you've tried it, but I've been doing the same and then using xfce instead. It's not bad... more traditional, but it is very unfinished right now, lacking very basic functionality. It shows a lot of promise though, and I think it'll be a really great alternative in the near future. If you haven't already, I recommend trying it out. You can always kick back to KDE if you prefer that.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (4, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 2 years ago | (#41711017)

sucks Amazon cock

So would I if they were going to pay money to support my business.

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41712189)

Actually, if it's amazon you'd be sucking quim. When you look at it that way it's not so bad, is it? Still prefer a BSD though...

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41713465)

You have every right to.

But you should also understand why many people find it unacceptable.

Actually I'm surprised by the lack of outrage from the open source community. Not regarding the ads themselves, but regarding the serious privacy issues and Canonical's/Shuttleworth's attitude.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/ubuntu-has-bigger-problem-its-amazon-blunder-203467 [infoworld.com]

Re:Ubuntu can fuck off (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41714165)

On the other hand Amazon supports DRM free music.In addition, they don't force a lame downloader application, I can use open source software to download my bought music.

Sorry, we can't here you over here, (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41710883)

on Mint userland...

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (4, Funny)

noobermin (1950642) | about 2 years ago | (#41711053)

It must be fantastic over their in Mint-land, wear you can have you're traditional desktop and true freedom and all that.

Its truly free, write?

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711507)

I hope English is your second language.

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (1)

Fjandr (66656) | about 2 years ago | (#41711531)

Whoosh...

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#41716883)

not the anonymous coward but whooosh to you nigger

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41712291)

No. Trisquel is libre (free as in freedom) though and so are a dozen or so other distributions. Linux Mint uses the mainline kernel and other software which is non-free. Itis gratis (available at no charge). A small part of the kernel is non-free so most distributions are not truly free. libre-linux is a derived version with those bits removed.

ThinkPenguin's one of the few places you can get freedom friendly hardware that works across distributions and versions. They even support Trisquel and have a version of the site (libre.thinkpenguin.com) that is FSF friendly (contains no support documentation on distributions which include non-free software). They don't actually ship or support non-free software on any distribution though. They don't need to since they only sell hardware that isn't dependent on non-free software. Ohh and they contribute to a ton of free software projects. From the FSF to Trisquel (25% of profits from the libre link go to the project). They also support a number of other distributions and projects (not all are FSF complaint though- but none develop non-free software).

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41712971)

Woooooooosh.

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (1)

mcgrew (92797) | about 2 years ago | (#41732051)

It must be fantastic over their in Mint-land, wear you can have you're traditional desktop and true freedom and all that.

Let me guess... you're a Windows user!

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711499)

What? My Debian doesn't speak Mint.

Re:Sorry, we can't here you over here, (2)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | about 2 years ago | (#41711663)

Really? Mine was so fluent that installing Cinnamon was just a matter of adding the LMDE repo.

I wish he would make it less buggy (4, Interesting)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 2 years ago | (#41710905)

I upgraded to 12.10 last night and spent the morning with a non-functinal system. Disabling my externa monitor has stopped the UI from hanging. At the moment it looks like the window manager (or what passes for one these days) can't cope with multiple monitors, at least configured the way I use them (laptop with a large external monitor, laptop monitor configured to be geometrically below the external montitor). I noticed that windows on the laptop screen go into this mode where the window border pulses, as if something in the window manager is thrashing.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (4, Informative)

MrEricSir (398214) | about 2 years ago | (#41710961)

Are you using a proprietary video driver? I've had much better luck using the open source drivers with dual monitors on Ubuntu.

(And yes, that goes for both Unity and Gnome 3.)

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 2 years ago | (#41711003)

Graphics driver says "INTEL IGD X86 MMX SE2" so yes I suppose I am using the proprietary video driver. I had a quick look around the system but I can't find the app for choosing proprietary drivers. I will look into an alternative. I just noticed that when an application "dims" to indicate that it is running slow, the window border flashes in the way I described above. Maybe that was a different issue but it doesn't look good.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711209)

Intel's drivers are open-source.

Try using KDE, rather than Gnome?

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 2 years ago | (#41711301)

Or just go back to 12.04

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41714193)

Or just go back to Windows

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Zaiff Urgulbunger (591514) | about 2 years ago | (#41714541)

I'm still running 10.10 because I can't upgrade to 12.04 until it stops randomly crashing; [from memory] I'm testing the nVidia 295.40 driver and that's still getting the odd crash (as in X crash... and I get logged out).

Am I just unfortunate in this? I've got a 9800GT video card btw.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (2)

Blaskowicz (634489) | about 2 years ago | (#41714777)

Geforce 8/9 GPUs are dying, netcraft confirms it. Well, they suffer from a hardware manufacturing defect that may manifests after years, I sure had a few crashes with my 8400GS, first when testing OpenArena (this is a game that is worth for testing purpose but is so inferior to Quake 3 it's not worth playing). Hard to tell if just the driver crashed or it's because of the hardware.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Zaiff Urgulbunger (591514) | about 2 years ago | (#41714847)

Naah... I'm running this hardware with Ubuntu 10.10 (and WinXP for games) and it's fine. I'm testing 12.04LTS with an external drive, but even with fairly limited use, it crashes and when I look in the Xorg log, it'll be an nvidia driver that caused it.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711667)

Yeah that's the great thing about the free desktop experience a.k.a The Linux Desktop Shuffle. There's a seemingly endless supply of half-assed perpetually 80% done bug-ridden bits of desktop infrastructure you can sift through whenever you have a problem, until you find a combination that offers the best comprimise between something that kinda-sorta-works well enough and something you actually want to use.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711785)

I've been using KDE since 4.1. I don't shuffle my DE. :)

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711859)

You just described every piece of proprietary software on the planet. Or at least anything with a price tag over $400.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41714223)

Have you ever even used a computer before?

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#41712593)

Yeah that's the great thing about the free desktop experience a.k.a The Linux Desktop Shuffle. There's a seemingly endless supply of half-assed perpetually 80% done bug-ridden bits of desktop infrastructure you can sift through whenever you have a problem, until you find a combination that offers the best comprimise between something that kinda-sorta-works well enough and something you actually want to use.

I think you should get back to arguing which versions of Windows are the good ones, or why first versions of windows are always rubbish, or discuss how awful Mac OS was before BSD came to the rescue.

The truth is Linux has a choice of mature desktop environments, bug free, and feature complete. Linux may have problems, but your lie isn't one of them.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711921)

Turning off kernel modesetting can help this, too.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#41713277)

I must need more coffee and less Jimmy Savile stories: I read that as kernel molesting.

Ubuntu 12.10 works for me - except it stops to send an error report to Shuttleworth every 30 mins or so. But that is after installing Gnome-shell. I have just learned enough Unity to switch back.

Let me be the first Unity-hate in this thread.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (2)

Narishma (822073) | about 2 years ago | (#41713819)

The only graphics drivers on Linux for Intel chips are open source, so if you have an Intel GPU, you can't be using proprietary drivers.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41713975)

you should generally wait at least a month to upgrade to new ubuntu versions unless you want to fix things like this.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 2 years ago | (#41711083)

Sadly, ATI decided to stop support in its closed-source driver for the FirePro M7740 chip, which Dell sold me in a "workstation-class" laptop less than three years ago. So I'm already using an open-source driver despite its inferior performance.

But unfortunately, even the open-source driver (or some other part of X or the kernel) leaves the display goofed up if I suspend/resume. If I'm able to somehow get to a terminal, I can run "killall gnome-session", which seems to do the trick. But long-story short, even the open source ATI driver on Ubuntu 12.10 isn't perfect.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (4, Insightful)

MrEricSir (398214) | about 2 years ago | (#41711233)

Sadly, ATI decided to stop support in its closed-source driver for the FirePro M7740 chip, which Dell sold me in a "workstation-class" laptop less than three years ago.

As someone who's been in the same boat, I don't think it's fair to blame the manufacturer here. Your hardware didn't change -- your software did.

Blame whoever broke binary compatibility with the existing driver.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 2 years ago | (#41711339)

Sadly, ATI decided to stop support in its closed-source driver for the FirePro M7740 chip, which Dell sold me in a "workstation-class" laptop less than three years ago.

As someone who's been in the same boat, I don't think it's fair to blame the manufacturer here. Your hardware didn't change -- your software did.

Blame whoever broke binary compatibility with the existing driver.

Dell advertised the M6500 laptop (my laptop with the FirePro M7740) chip as having Linux as a "supported" operating system. I realize they made a vague claim in that statement, but when a laptop vendor and graphics chip vendor are asking you to shell out unreasonable money for a "workstation-class" chip, one of their main justifications is top-notch driver support. The M6500 isn't even out of warranty, and Dell+ATI (since they teamed up on that combo) aren't supporting current versions of the Linux kernel and/or X.

Did they breach a contract with me? No. But I'm also no longer willing to trust either of those companies again to support their products for more than a year or two.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 years ago | (#41714267)

Don't you have the original driver that your system came w/? What happened to make it suddenly not work - did you do kernel updates, or change the DE or DE version, or something like it?

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about a year ago | (#41717413)

Dell didn't ship a Linux driver with the laptop.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Patch86 (1465427) | about 2 years ago | (#41721697)

If they promised "Linux support", but failed to supply Linux drivers, I would consider that mis-selling. I'd say you were owed a full refund there.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

DoofusOfDeath (636671) | about 2 years ago | (#41721825)

If they promised "Linux support", but failed to supply Linux drivers, I would consider that mis-selling. I'd say you were owed a full refund there.

I wish, but I have to disagree. It wouldn't be accurate for me to say they provided no Linux support at all. For example, I've run into a number of issues, and they never gave me any hassle just because I was running Linux. (All of my issues where hardware-related, so I never tested their willingness to sort of Linux-specific issues.)

In this case, I'd say they haven't supported Linux as excellently as I'd have liked. Really good Linux support would have meant have meant ensuring that ATI's proprietary drivers worked with each new version of X and each new version of the Linux kernel that came out during the support period.

However, if I was willing to go back and use Ubuntu 11.10, or perhaps 11.04, I believe the proprietary ATI driver would work just fine.

I think what you're proposing would be roughly analogous to dinging Dell for not supporting Windows 8 on this laptop. I.e., it would be a sign of great support, but not something they're strictly speaking obligated to do.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#41713925)

Blame whoever broke binary compatibility with the existing driver.

That's not how it works. Windows would have the same problem; upgrade to a new Windows and now your old graphics driver doesn't work. The difference is that ATI supports their old cards longer in their Windows driver than they do in their Linux driver. ATI brings out a new driver for a new version of Windows, they bring support for the old cards to it. ATI brings out a new driver for a new version of Linux, and they don't support the old cards. In this case, it is only appropriate to blame ATI. ATI is actually even worse than that; they sometimes fail to support a new chipset at all. For example, I have a subnotebook with R690M chipset, with X1250 graphics. The Windows driver only supports up to Vista, and ATI does not offer any direct downloads whatsoever for mobile platforms newer than GEODE. The Linux OSS driver produces massive screen corruption, and the corruption is actually worse with newer drivers than what I got when I bought the thing. Before it was almost usable, now it's just hash from the start. And fglrx has never supported it, and claims it's too old, which is what it claimed the day I brought the hardware home from the store, new in box, still shipping.

It is a simple fact that ATI has poorer support for their own hardware than nVidia has for theirs. There really can be no argument on this point.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41719777)

Your chip is a variant of the Radeon Mobility HD4860, which is supported by AMD's Catalyst 12.6 Legacy driver. Maybe you should just try that one: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/legacy/Pages/legacy-radeon_linux.aspx

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

HJED (1304957) | about 2 years ago | (#41711885)

likewise, for me the upgrader removed every single entry from grub so that I had to work out how to boot using the grub comandline (which I had no idea how to do for a linux kernel) eventually I managed to get into a busybox shell and chroot to run grub-install and grub-update, but most users who experience such an error would have been left with an unusable system.
It also unistalled my window manager, kdm, but I reinstalled that before I rebooted.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41714385)

That's one of the problems with open source sometimes the documentation. But then again MS' has had crappy documentation ever since Windows became an OS, so it's hardly an open source thing. Producers of software that want people to use it should provide documentation.

But, the solution to this is usually http://www.supergrubdisk.org/super-grub-disk/

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

HJED (1304957) | about a year ago | (#41717521)

Yeah, but its kind of hard to find the documentation when your computer won't boot because the distros upgrader wipped all of your kernel entries, in this case the problem was that 'stable' software shouldn't render my computer unusable.

Avoid non-LTS releases (3, Informative)

Pausanias (681077) | about 2 years ago | (#41712651)

I learned the hard way that non-LTS Ubuntu releases are alpha software. LTS releases are beta software on release day. Wait for the .1 release of LTS and you've got a good stable system.

The biggest problem with installing non-LTS is that any bug reports are fixed in the NEXT version and they don't give a damn about the the version you're actually reporting from. THEY treat it as alpha, therefore you should not be surprised.

-Written from 12.04.1

Re:Avoid non-LTS releases (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#41713559)

Unfortunately I think that even the LTS releases are alpha-quality software. If a recent version of Windows or OSX was released that buggy, if would be a catastrophe for the company.

Now, I actually like Ubuntu very much and am glad that they are releasing new versions periodically, even if they weren't perfect. As Steve Jobs has said, "real artists ship". But if desktop Linux some day really makes it big, there has to be much more robust quality assurance systems in place. We'll see.

Re:Avoid non-LTS releases (0)

TheRaven64 (641858) | about 2 years ago | (#41713737)

Just avoid Ubuntu. I have one machine running Ubuntu, which is a little ARM-based laptop. Unlike most other machines, Canonical was paid by the manufacturer to support Ubuntu on this device. So how did that work? Well, on boot udevd jumps to using 100% of the CPU and the only way of getting a vaguely responsive system is to kill it. Unity is painfully slow and uses up so much RAM that even running a single large application (e.g. LibreOffice or FireFox) causes thrashing. Oh, and most of the system dialogs don't fit on the vertical space - this, remember, on a system where the justification for all of the recent UI fuckups was to produce something that worked on small form-factor devices...

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

curious.corn (167387) | about 2 years ago | (#41713519)

Ah ok, we'll see next Monday: my story is that I tried upgrading an existing 12.04 and all seemed to go well until the installed started complaining that I had chosen to "hold back broken packages". Once it rebooted grub barfed and dumped me to its command line.

My guess is that the new package manager took half hour to abort the install or run through the b0rked list of packages, broke the previous one in the process and reboot, so that now I'm left staring at the old grub deploy.

It's kind of annoying really, all I had added to the bog standard install were the repos for Chrome and VirtualBox. How is it possible for such a standard upgrade to fail so badly is unbelievable.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (0)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 2 years ago | (#41713927)

I gave up on multiple monitors in Linux until the next massive wave of X updates. Which is sad, because I have two 20" displays right next to one another...

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (2)

plasticsquirrel (637166) | about 2 years ago | (#41714331)

If you want fewer bugs, then Ubuntu LTS is really the way to go. Those LTS releases are expected to be relatively stable for 5 years. When you are on the quick release cycles, anything can happen. This is the same principle between stable / testing / unstable with Debian. When you are on the bleeding edge, things break. When you are using the stable version, you should be able to expect that very few things will ever break. I wish more Ubuntu users paid attention to this principle, especially during the early period of Unity, when everyone was complaining about it being so buggy. Then when the LTS release came out (12.04): "Hey, Unity is actually pretty decent and stable now!" Of course it will be stable.... that's the stable version.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

rjha94 (265433) | about 2 years ago | (#41714903)

If you want fewer bugs, then Ubuntu LTS is really the way to go. Those LTS releases are expected to be relatively stable for 5 years.

I am not sure that 12.04 LTS is that rock stable. I installed 12.04 on rackspace (using their image) and mysql refused to start because of some AppArmor bug. If you search launchpad you can get that bug. Now mysql is a big and fairly known package and lot of people would be using it on server. Now I understand the rationale of "it will be fixed soon", "someone already has the hack" and "you fix it, you did not pay for it". However just imagine how surprised you would be it it were an LTS release. I do not think Debian stable would have given someone such a jolt.

Re:I wish he would make it less buggy (1)

Patch86 (1465427) | about 2 years ago | (#41721687)

I'm using 12.04 with dual monitors right now, and it works OK. Did they break something in the new version?

(In case it helps- if you're using the Nvidia proprietary drivers, you need to use the Nvidia settings menu, rather than the default "Displays" menu, in order to configure dual monitors. Not sure why, but there you go)

Mini-mod me (4, Insightful)

noobermin (1950642) | about 2 years ago | (#41710995)

Before you mention a) your technical problem with 12.10 b) your disgust with unity c) your leet alternative of cinammon/openbox/awesome/i3/dwm/twm/tmux/screen/tty2, can we save those for the appropriate forums or articles? This article is about Ubuntu becoming more closed, not about unity specifically or otherwise.

Re:Mini-mod me (1)

Windwraith (932426) | about 2 years ago | (#41711149)

I absolutely adore how you actually got the alternatives in some sort of logical order.

Re:Mini-mod me (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711169)

Yes, and no.

Like it or not, the 'off-topic' flood shows what really bugs people about the topics Ubuntu and Shuttleworth.

Holding too close to 'the topic' can make the forum too much into an audience for press releases.

Re:Mini-mod me (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711199)

Before you mention a) your technical problem with 12.10 b) your disgust with unity c) your leet alternative of cinammon/openbox/awesome/i3/dwm/twm/tmux/screen/tty2, can we save those for the appropriate forums or articles?

Techdirt has a CwF+RtB, which means: Connect with Fans & Reason to Buy that I think is very appropriate prism to view this entire thing through, and also your comments. The underlying issues with Ubuntu is that it is losing this concept and not giving either of these anymore.
a) Technical issues => negative reason to buy
b) disgust with unity => negative connecting with fans
c) alternatives => fans going elsewhere to get what they need

This article is about Ubuntu becoming more closed, not about unity specifically or otherwise.

Actually, I'd argue that this article IS about Ubuntu being closed, which has lead more and more to Unity/ Amazon's spyware, etc. The fact that Shuttleworth & co. have not been giving CwF+RtB, is VERY much so an issue that is tied together with the decision to move to Unity, etc and the decision to do in house development with only _SELECT_ external input....

How about you suck my dick? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711321)

no comment

Re:Mini-mod me (3, Insightful)

marcosdumay (620877) | about 2 years ago | (#41711863)

Your post goes only to show that Ubunu clearly have image problems. In a way, they always had, but it was restricted to the same people that care if it is getting less open now. Nowadays, they've annoyed so many people, that the old time haters are outspoken, and can't even have a coherent conversation between the newby haters.

Ok, inside the topic, people always complained that Ubuntu was too closed, and that it was getting even more closed, except for a small period, when they started to cooperate with Debian. In fact, it doesn't seem to be getting more closed, it installs closed softwre by default (it has always done that), it mixes closed software with proprietary in their repos (again, as always), it installs software with a big risk of being sued for infringing patents by default (not new), it gets money from private entities (as always), it customizes a few things the way its patrons like (that's new, it used to inherit patronized customizations).

Personaly, except for installing too much closed software by default, I don't care about any of the above. And even the proprietary software, I care about it mostly because it is low quality, and wouldn't care if I could just ignore it.

more clear (1)

DragonDru (984185) | about 2 years ago | (#41711065)

There has to be a way to make this statement more clearly. The less coupled with the NOT is too close to multiple negatives for my lightning fast reads. "This would mean that there was even less of Ubuntu that was NOT shaped and polished by folk other than Canonical â" a move that one would think would be well received."

It's becoming more open (3, Insightful)

Culture20 (968837) | about 2 years ago | (#41711073)

...to closed source software. And incestuous design methods. And to advertising money.

Re:It's becoming more open (2)

marcosdumay (620877) | about 2 years ago | (#41711791)

And now I must ask. If it is becomming more open to closed source software, is it more or less open?

Because I can think of some arguments for "more", some arguments for "less", but I'm tending to aswer "the two aren't related at all".

Mom! They Fuc... (-1, Offtopic)

macbeth66 (204889) | about 2 years ago | (#41711159)

Sorry,Mom. They fraked... You watched that show? Okay, they screwed up Ubuntu. I'm moving you to Mint. Yeah, Mint. Like minty fresh. No, it won't get sassy with you, unless you want it to.

Maybe if he changed the way he said it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41711181)

I read his correction three times before I got what he was trying to say, "This would mean that there was even less of Ubuntu that was NOT shaped and polished by folk other than Canonical." Couldn't he have just said, "More of Ubuntu will be shaped and polished by third-party developers"? That would have been a lot more clear and caused less of a backlash.

As it is, I've been looking at Launchpad a lot this past week and keep seeing things marked as "not a bug" or "won't fix". Doesn't seem like Canonical has any interest in feedback from the community.

Re:Maybe if he changed the way he said it (3, Interesting)

AdamWill (604569) | about 2 years ago | (#41711967)

Things get marked 'notabug' and 'wontfix' in all sorts of bug trackers, all the time, by all sorts of developers. It's quite a leap from there to 'doesn't have any interest in feedback from the community'.

less perfect (1)

phrostie (121428) | about 2 years ago | (#41711289)

You are not less perfect than Lore

Same As It Ever Was (1)

Anzhr (1132621) | about 2 years ago | (#41711295)

Ubuntu is not becoming more or less open or closed. It's always been as it is, the SABDFL's distro. Thus it was brown, now it is bruise coloured; thus it was Warty, now it is cool to find Amazon suggestions in searching for files and applications. Ubuntu's main problem is that Mark says things. He should just do what he does and have another person speak for Ubuntu who won't have to "correct misperceptions" because they won't actually know what Mark is doing and so can just say nice things.

Re:Same As It Ever Was (1)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | about 2 years ago | (#41711875)

While I'm not a fan of some of his decisions, I don't think his autonomy is a bad thing. SABDFL's distro is there is you want to use it. If you prefer a more communal approach to software bundles, there's Debian. The whole point of Ubuntu is to take Debian and give it a different focus, and I think it serves a very valid purpose. Its popularity is a testament to that.

Re:Same As It Ever Was (1)

Anzhr (1132621) | about 2 years ago | (#41713401)

Yes, I think so too. The kerfuffle is beside the point. Mark will do as he wishes, as openly and as not, as he wishes. And even if one doesn't care for it, Ubuntu still is a pretty good version of Debian unstable to roll one's own with Fluxbox or Openbox. Or to use in its Xubuntu form.

It's definitely getting slower though (2)

pouar (2629833) | about 2 years ago | (#41711831)

Unity is now too slow to run inside VirtualBox, even with Hardware Acceleration and the Guest Additions

Re:It's definitely getting slower though (1)

pouar (2629833) | about 2 years ago | (#41715843)

my bad, I should've used the guest iso and not the one in the official repos, Unity's still large though

That's the last straw! (1, Redundant)

Arancaytar (966377) | about 2 years ago | (#41712141)

I'm replacing Ubuntu with Debian! ... oh wait, I already did that like a year ago. But I'm even more glad about that decision now.

The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to me! (5, Funny)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 2 years ago | (#41712181)

After trying to use the beta, and now release, and after months of fighting Unity in the the prior versions: I got so fed up that I actually started creating my own OS from scratch! Well, from Assembly... Initially anyway.

First I made a Hex editor for RAM (in under 446 bytes) that can call into the edited memory. I wrote that to a USB drive, plugged it into a spare computer which is now Dev Machine Zero. After booting the MBR hex editor I created a "Save RAM Segment to Disk" by manually inputting binary op codes (machine code). Once I could save my work from RAM to disk, I began work on a simple 2 stage chaining boot loader -- It already lets me multi-boot and supports my extensible hash-based encryption [project-retrograde.com] , which I use for signing/decrypting the 2nd stage loader and primordial kernel. As soon as I'm done implementing keyed SHA3 I'll use it to support full drive encryption at boot. It been little over a week of evenings and my bootstrap loader now replaces GRUB on all my systems. I'm also about 1/4th of the way through my new assembler language (it's currently a subset of 8086 only); When it's done I'll extend the Assembler using itself to support macros and finally begin bootstrapping myself into a compiler for a higher level language, like C (or maybe a C-ish lang of my own design).

I sometimes do low level work on custom embedded systems programming, so I know a bit about OS development / design. I could use a cross compiler and/or a VM in a host OS, but I where's the fun in that? Besides, I can PROVE my bootstrap and compiler process didn't inject any back doors (as in Ken Thompson's Trusting Trust [catb.org] ). There simply was no room for back-doors; I can "trust no one" because every last byte is accounted for.

It's been forever since I wrote any Real Mode code; Ah fond memories: Outputting MOD files to the PC speaker, low res 320x200 256c graphics, direct disk IO, 640K + "High Memory"... I'll almost be sad to make the switch into Protected Mode and write the device drivers & file systems.

Well, Thanks Ubuntu! I've had this idea for an Agent oriented OS kicking around for a while -- If it weren't for your usability failures pushing my frustrations over the edge I would still just be thinking, "Any idiot could do better than this!" instead of actually giving it a shot. Also, to all those "why re-invent the wheel" types: When's the last time you saw a wagon wheel on a sports car, eh?

I'm still a loyal NetBSD & Slackware luser, but screw Ubuntu. I still have to use Ubuntu for testing packaging of my other projects, but instead of fighting the UI or glitches now I just take a deep breath, get a fresh cup of coffee and add a new feature to the only OS developed with my usability in mind.

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41713003)

Ubuntu is not for power users. It never has been. Ubuntu is for people like me- who want to use linux and most of its customisability without loosing out on stability*. For (non-hacking) work, for playing video games, for surfing the web: not for hacking, fixing bugs, coding or playing with fun options. If you want the latter, write your own (like you did), or use something that makes it easy.
Not everyone wants to make time to spend on configuring a new set-up. I don't want to learn all the notoriously complex quirks that X has. I don't want a window manager that I first have to change options in to avoid clipping of windows. I don't want to have to find and compile a driver to be able to use my network.
This is mostly based on experiences I had with arch: it was a very smooth experience, until I got to setting up a window manager. I spent half an hour frowning and reading the wiki, then figured I could be finishing work and do something else. And I know arch to have stellar documentation.

* and by stable I am here referring to the LTS releases, not all the half-yearly releases. They can be somewhat unstable. And yes, there is debian out there, but that is even less up to date than ubuntu is.

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (1)

eric_herm (1231134) | about 2 years ago | (#41713823)

Even power users want to have stuff that just work. So yes, ubuntu is not for content creator, more for consumers. The way content is pushed directly when people try to work is a testimony of that target, and that's the vast majority of the users IMHO, and that's what Mark target.

Talk is cheap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41713019)

Show me the code!

Don't know about the rest of you, but... apk (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41715309)

Vortex Cortex: For 1? I am IMPRESSED man... no joke/no sarcasm!

* LMAO - You're a crazy bastard... & I mean that in a good way!

(It's folks like yourself that "hang around" here on occasion & "grace us with your presence" that makes me keep reading forums here in articles... you never KNOW what you'll find, & often, it's very interesting! I found your post so in fact...)

APK

P.S.=> Just when you *think* personally that you're doing some "cool shit" on YOUR OWN part? You read a post like yours & say "Whoa, guess not, by way of comparison"...

... apk

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41715639)

You're developping an OS because the UI had problems ?
If your coffee machine fails you start designing a nuclear power plant ?
And if your car is having tire problems you probably start building your own refinary...

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 2 years ago | (#41755759)

You're developping an OS because the UI had problems ? If your coffee machine fails you start designing a nuclear power plant ? And if your car is having tire problems you probably start building your own refinary...

It was something I'd wanted to do for a while, and instead of just complaining I'm actually doing something about it now. Don't get me wrong, I can use any OS fine, but that doesn't mean that I won't be frustrated while doing so, and thinking of all the ways everything could be improved, if only they did it differently... UI issues with Ubuntu Unity was just the tipping point. Without them it may have been years before I got fed up enough to start a whole new OS -- I might have even been content with just making a new window manager (or improving XFCE), but the proverbial camel has now broken its back.

I have a sligtly different take on OSs inspired by shortcomings that most modern OSs have... Some things I want to do just aren't possible using Linux or BSD. Some things I want to do could be implemented in a POSIX OS, like these, but just aren't being done. For instance: Set up groups for capabilites, and run every program as its own user. So, you'd have Firefox, wget, IRC clients, etc in the "WAN" group, IRC, ThunderBird, etc in the "Identity" and "WAN" Groups, groups for managing different services, etc. Each program also gets its own group. This way, no program can read any other program's data (or your data) unless they have permission. ThunderBird can't access your IRC chat logs, the IRC client can't access your Internet History files, etc. If you wanted to give Firefox access to say, run say Steam clients: You'd add Firefox to the "Steam" group.

Apache is often configured to run as its own user -- Everything else needs to do this too, IMO. Without a policy to enforce this behavior in the distro or OS itself it just takes too much effort to keep re-configuring things this way. If the OS enforced such behavior natively then many other things become possible, like trusted Agents, fully sandboxed plugins, and being able to automatically query for capabilites regardless of the particular programs installed...

My way isn't for everyone, but it suits me. I'm a "Focus on the Solution, not on the Problem" sort of guy.

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41715907)

You have way too much time on your hand.

Re:The new Ubuntu was the best thing to happen to (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 2 years ago | (#41755299)

One of the other commenters quoted Linus, "Talk is cheap, Show me the Code". I have that on my coffee mug right now :-)

Unfortunately most of my work is in machine code and although it works for me, it isn't well tested since that's not my main concern just yet. When I get to the point of having more stable code in a more readable form than raw op-codes or half-implemented ASM, then I'll be sure to release it. Until then, here's the raw memory bootable hex editor I mentioned: Hexabootable [vortexcortex.com] . This one has a couple more features and a Visual interface rather than my first EDLINE like input method; Although it fits in a 512 byte boot sector there's no room for a drive partition table (meh, those are really more of a reccomendation, not an essential rule). You should still be able to boot it from a drive via:
dd if=hexboot.img of=$YOUR_DRIVE
or using a VM (which you should use instead if you value your hardware).

I went through and heavily commented EVERYTHING, so even folks who don't know x86 assembler can follow along. There's 26 bytes left of space in the image, so when I have time I'll see about squeezing in the text input mode I've implemented in machine code on a live instance; Till then it's Hexadecimal all the way.

Happy Hacking!

Learning from past errors are we? Now go libre! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41712259)

After the numerous bungles with Unity, Amazon, and other decisions maybe Mark has learned something. Having outsiders inside would help reveal mistakes before they become mistakes. That would likely solve the publicity problems facing Ubuntu.

Canonical (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41713421)

Linux was pretty much stagnant and elusive to Joe user before Canonical came along and really pushed it. It's sad, that in a place like Slashdot the users turn against the Linux fight with DDW (Damn Dirty Windows). I really thought you guys would be smarter than this, such a shame.

I for one applaud Canonical pushing Linux to the masses and wish them the best to offer users a real choice against DDW.

The upside? (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#41713607)

So...I understand if some of these practices are not typical for the open source development model. Like putting more emphasis on donations and sponsors, and having a closed core developer group.

But maybe these are just damn practical moves. Maybe the extra cash will help ironing out the horrible amount of bugs, and improve the performance and hardware support. Maybe having a controlled development team will help having a clearer focus on technology and design, without there being million APIs and UIs fighting for popularity. All good things for the Year of Linux on Desktop?

Should have gone with BSD (0)

laffer1 (701823) | about 2 years ago | (#41714243)

The approach used with Ubuntu angers a lot of Linux and GPL fans because it's not in the spirit of the GPL. BSD folks accept that someone can use their code for whatever purposes including making money on closed source software. We're OK with this. From a view of the project's culture and licensing considerations, it doesn't make sense that ubuntu is a linux distro at all.

If you're a GPL person, I think you should be annoyed at what they've done. Ubuntu is clearly a business and meant to be monetized. That in itself isn't a problem as Redhat has been doing it for years. However, I can also point to countless things Redhat has donated to the community too. The only things Ubuntu has given me are a headache, a reason to start my BSD project and a reason to try Debian when I needed a linux distro at work.

What they all forget .. all the time .. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#41716995)

Not only Ubuntu, but also e.g. NVIDIA make the same mistake:

It's _us_, the geeks, that install and recommend software (and hardware) for all our friends, friends of friends and our companies.

I don't like Ubuntu anymore simply for this statement that they _want_ to abuse my friends brains for their advertisments, so the next 100 linux installations won't be Ubuntu anymore but probably plain stable Debian from now on. .. just like all the PCs I recommend to friends don't contain NVIDIA but integrated Intel graphics adaptors since quite some time now. .. same goes for Android over iOS as it is somewhat less locked down, LibreOffice over others, etc. etc. etc.

In the end it's my responsibility to recommend the best for my friends and customers, and this is how this turns out.

anonimous distracted (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41749095)

On a magazine article* quipped "Ubuntu seeks cash from Amazon ads" wich can't be linked because you hit a paywall but you can read because it graciously appears published on the web even months in advance, leave it to another instance to discuss the magazine, the article goes:
"As of the next version Ubuntu, searches will return results not only from the local filesystem, but will also point to results of searches on Amazon. Technically, this isn't so wildly different from what Unity already does: a search for "The Road to Serfdom" on our Ubuntu box suggest a documentary film about Friedrich Hayek on the BBC iPlayer, for example wich is pretty useful. But linking to Amazon raises questions about the motives of Ubuntus's parent company, Canonical" . Later "To those worried about privacy Shuttleworth wrote on his blog: "We are not telling Amazon what you are searching for. Your anonimity is preserved because we handle the query on your behalf. Don't trust us? Erm, we have root You do trust us with your data already"
. hear people talking wonders about "smart" phones and its features but nothin bout how little vicious snitches they can get set to and in their smartness (as well as their not so called smart cousins the supposedly general purpose computers) to constantly establish network traffic and exchange with a particular vendor who happens to have root access.

*linux format (lfx) 164 december 2012

PS: why if this is a techie site it doesn't have a ssl connection?.

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