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Shake-up at Apple: Forstall Out; iOS Executive Fired For Maps Debacle?

Soulskill posted about a year and a half ago | from the should-have-called-it-artistic-license dept.

IOS 487

New submitter noh8rz10 writes "Apple's Scott Forstall, who grew iOS from its inception, is departing the company. Rumors say it's because of the Maps debacle, and problems with Siri as well. Jony Ive is taking a larger human interface role, which means he may kill the skeuomorphic interfaces he hates. John Browett, head of retail, is out as well; he never won the trust of the community. What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?"

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487 comments

The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (0, Flamebait)

ehack (115197) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813341)

The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813399)

The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship.

This is more like bilge water being pumped out of a ship, after the damage to the hull has been repaired.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813487)

Sinking ship my ass. They are rolling in money.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (5, Funny)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813619)

They have so much money it's sinking the ship.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (5, Funny)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813697)

From the pictures I saw, I know of one ship (if you can call it that) that should be sunk.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (1)

Grayhand (2610049) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813741)

They have so much money it's sinking the ship.

More to the point they have so much money a nuke couldn't sink their ship.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (5, Funny)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813829)

To be fair, nukes don't so much sink ships as move the surrounding ocean above them.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (3, Insightful)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813823)

Down 15% in 6 weeks. Apple definitely qualifies as a sinking stock. As to whether the ship itself will sink... one can only hope. Realistically I expect that we will be stuck with Apple and its bad acting for quite some time to come. However a humbled, smaller Apple will definitely be easier to tolerate that the current arrogant, destructive corporate bully.

Continuing the ship analogy, Apple board would be wise to make Tim Cook walk the plank without delay. But it is a safe bet they will continue to act their typical, domesticated and irresponsible selves and just keep banking that free money for showing up at the annual meetings with their mouths zipped shut. Which is great for the rest of us, because that's the absolute worst thing that could happen to Apple.

While I'm in here, some advice to Tim Cook: lose the black turtleneck. Steve Jobs could pull it off, you can't.

Re:The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813869)

Down 15% for good reason, it was overvalued. The entire market is. The Dow shouldn't be above 10k as long as unemployment is above 8%.

sucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813343)

he sucks at leadership?

Re:sucks (4, Interesting)

TapeCutter (624760) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813683)

This means Jack Shit, it's standard mokey politics for an incoming boss, sack a few high profile monkeys and the other monkeys will fall into line. A boss who isn't noticed and can't hand pick his entorage is a figure head, not a leader.

Re:sucks (4, Insightful)

causality (777677) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813751)

This means Jack Shit, it's standard mokey politics for an incoming boss, sack a few high profile monkeys and the other monkeys will fall into line. A boss who isn't noticed and can't hand pick his entorage is a figure head, not a leader.

When you are insecure and/or can't earn the genuine respect and admiration of those around you by means of your talent, expertise, and inspiring leadership, I suppose you might become desperate enough to resort to such Machiavellian tactics as this.

If he can't be better than a monkey, he wants to be the biggest monkey. What a shame that so many don't understand this is not real respect. Not even close. Of course it's not realistic to expect basic wisdom from the kind of dehumanized sociopaths who tend to run corporations, but I can dream.

Re:sucks (4, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813851)

Remember that the dehumanized sociopaths running companies are competing against other sociopaths. If a new CEO shows any weakness, the other sociopaths will conspire to oust them. Just as Kim Jong-Un had to purge a bunch of his father's old advisers in order to solidify his grip on North Korea, so too must new CEOs purge a board member or two in order to prove they're the boss.

It's not about what's best for the company. People who genuinely have the company's interests at heart won't be able to compete in that world. When you realize what sort of people these are, and what sort of world they live in, it's utterly unsurprising that their actions make no sense to us. They're practically a different species.

Re:sucks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813857)

Almost every level of a publicly elected official come with his own monkeys. Look at any president and his cabinet. Sometimes it's faster to come with your own folks than trying to convince others of their loyalty/ trust/ unified vision.

Re:sucks (5, Interesting)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813871)

OR we do not really know what happened are are making an assumption?

We do know that IOS 6 sucked. It had power issues, maps were unusable, and Sirii still has issues. To this day people love putitng pics on facebook of IPhones misinterpretting things in embarrasing conversations.

I would fire several people too. Not to show who is boss and be a badass, but because that should not have been released PERIOD. Did they do any QA at all? WTF. I could be wrong too and Cook could have demanded it and ignored issues but this would be likely a good termination ... well except for the guy who got canned.

Re:sucks (1, Flamebait)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813853)

A boss who isn't noticed and can't hand pick his entorage is a figure head, not a leader.

I'll call that pure spin. It is readily apparent that Apple has made a string of costly bluners lately, shareholders aren't happy and victims had to be found to pay the price. But since they didn't sack those actually responsible (Tim Cook, we're looking at you) I am confident that the blunders will continue.

trust of the community???? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813345)

i don't even know how to interpret that.

Apple and the trust of the community?

Apple, so far as I have seen, is either loved unconditionally, or disliked for various reasons.

Was there a part of "the community" that was waiting to be won over? Community CUPS devs?

Re:trust of the community???? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813453)

i don't even know how to interpret that.

Apple and the trust of the community?

Apple, so far as I have seen, is either loved unconditionally, or disliked for various reasons.

Was there a part of "the community" that was waiting to be won over? Community CUPS devs?

It's a cute notion, like the way children believe in Santa Claus. But corporations are not compatible with any real sense of community. Corporations are perfect tyrannies. Real community means people who share, it's a give-and-take that enriches everyone who participates. Corporations seek only to enrich themselves. All of them, not just Apple. That's why they have to spend so much money on marketing to appear otherwise. It is not their natural undisguised apperance at all.

Fanboys aside, pragmatists aren't very fond of Apple. Pragmatists aren't suckered by hype. That is why they realize how strongly Apple resembles Microsoft in its heyday. Apple is perhaps worse - until recently Microsoft didn't so strongly control what could run on Windows the way Apple controls their walled garden. Apple is just more talented at appearing innocuous. Their marketing is more effective. No one proudly sported Windows the way some Apple fans show off their iDevices. Still doesn't change the nature of the corporation though.

And the way this cult of personality surrounding Jobs lives on long after the man's death is just plain disturbing. He was an abusive control freak and generally not a very nice guy at all. He didn't design anything. His only genius was making money. I don't see investment bankers getting this kind of love and adoration, for good reason. People like him being in charge of everything is part of why the world is so fucked up. Now lots of emotionally puerile types get all upset when you throw cold water on their hero fantasies and dare to suggest that their idol wasn't the first perfect person, that a man who appeared larger than life was still just a man. So be it.

Re:trust of the community???? (4, Insightful)

hahn (101816) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813575)

Fanboys aside, pragmatists aren't very fond of Apple. Pragmatists aren't suckered by hype. That is why they realize how strongly Apple resembles Microsoft in its heyday. Apple is perhaps worse - until recently Microsoft didn't so strongly control what could run on Windows the way Apple controls their walled garden. Apple is just more talented at appearing innocuous. Their marketing is more effective. No one proudly sported Windows the way some Apple fans show off their iDevices. Still doesn't change the nature of the corporation though.

Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden? Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?

Re:trust of the community???? (3, Informative)

Entropius (188861) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813615)

I've heard iphone users complain that they can't get swype and can't get Google Maps or turn-by-turn navigation or any number of things that are on Android...

Re:trust of the community???? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813631)

You can and have been able to get turn-by-turn on iOS for years, just not from the default maps app.

Re:trust of the community???? (2, Interesting)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813719)

In all fairness it was GOOGLE refusing Apple to use the Turn-by-Turn results in the App that Apple made for Maps and paid money to Google on behalf of users. GOOGLE wanted "more control".. Read it what you will, but they obviously wanted more information from/ about users than Apple was willing to share (on top of money).

Google rocked the boat FIRST by WITHHOLDING features from iOS versions while Apple was a PAYING CUSTOMER of the service. (To give its own pony an advantage) Apple did what any of US would do. Find another vendor ASAP.

Re:trust of the community???? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813805)

Shhh.. Google is god, Apple is teh sux. Subscribe to the slashdot double-standard today!

Re:trust of the community???? (2)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813903)

Or retaliation for the Android lawsuits? Apple wanted more control and felt Google was getting rich off all their users. True and they could have renogiated for another year until ios 7.

Or go to Microsoft. Microsoft? Yes, they hate Google more than Apple. They are releasing office 2013 for iOS and even porting skydrive. Bing is a loss leader and big customer like Apple would help generate some revenue and hurt Google as it is the largest source of red ink at Redmonton.

The failure is on the project manager of IOS for agreeing it could be done without proper research. It was also a failure of Cook. I mean what does he do all day? A good CEO manages everything and knows exactly what everything is going on all times.

Re:trust of the community???? (4, Informative)

saleenS281 (859657) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813919)

No, they didn't want "more information on top of money". It's been explicitly stated what they wanted - google branding on the maps application, and latitude support. Apple said no. Google is in NO WAY at fault, Steve Job's ego is the sole reason that turn-by-turn never made it into IOS.

Re:trust of the community???? (4, Interesting)

PNutts (199112) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813759)

I've heard iphone users complain that they can't get swype and can't get Google Maps or turn-by-turn navigation or any number of things that are on Android...

iOS 6 turn-by-turn navigation puts Garmin's app to shame.

Re:trust of the community???? (1)

Bacon Bits (926911) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813801)

Yeah, I've heard people complain they can't get ArcGIS or AutoCAD on Linux, or Final Cut Studio on Windows, or Halo 3 on PC. "I can't get the software I want" isn't a problem unique to walled gardens. If you've ever run "apt-get install $mySoftware" and gotten "Package not found" you're familiar with it too. People are used to being unable to get the software they want where they want it and settling for something that is almost -- but not quite -- entirely unlike the software they wanted. A walled garden with a company store doesn't provide a significantly different experience. This should more reveal the failings of current software design and development more than failings of walled gardens.

Re:trust of the community???? (0)

jedidiah (1196) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813743)

> Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden? Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?

Such people aren't smart enough to realize they are being taken advantage of. They aren't geeky enough to be aware of the "value".

Ignorance is bliss they say...

Re:trust of the community???? (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813793)

Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden?

Some people highly value smoking crack. This alone is not proof of merit.

Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?

If you are claiming that only "tech geeks" could possibly appreciate unrestricted freedom of choice, that is interesting. I would be willing to entertain your reasoning, but so far I haven't seen it. Personally, I think it's a nice euphamistic way of saying that most people are far too stupid to be trusted with choices. The funny thing about that, is that if stupidity is universally expected, it tends to become the norm. When it's viewed as pathological, it tends to be limited to only the few who really can't do better.

I also have doubts that it's healthy to design everything for the absolute beginner, rather than viewing "newbie" as a transitory and most temporary stage along the path to at least some small degree of competence. But it's difficult to have this conversation around here. Few seem to recognize that "small degree of competence" does not mean "expert" due to some strange tendency to go to extremes. It's a bit mysterious, since it's inconsistent with any contact with reality and its myriad shades of grey.

Re:trust of the community???? (1)

LordLucless (582312) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813831)

Have you ever considered the possibility that some people actually *value* a walled garden? Like nearly everyone who isn't a tech geek? Which is like 99% of the people buying these devices?

Most people who aren't tech geeks don't even realize they're in a walled garden.

Clang Clang (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813351)

Hey, quit saying "skeuomorphic" in there!

Re:Clang Clang (3, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813455)

So you want something like METRO instead?

I am in favor of things looking pretty and familiar. It doesn't make sense to have an awesome GPU which runs an OS where you have only 8 colors to choose from and no different than Windows 3.0 on an EGA card. This is the 21st century.

The problem is the anti skeupmorphic folks have terrible outdated looks and some of the functionality is missing that people are used to for the last 20 years.

Re:Clang Clang (3, Insightful)

Horshu (2754893) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813517)

So you'd rather have the OS chew up cycles than let the apps have them?

Re:Clang Clang (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813633)

Never under estimate the value of eye candy.

Re:Clang Clang (5, Insightful)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813737)

Never under estimate the value of eye candy.

Skeuomorphic is not eye-candy, it's an obsolete approach that was never pretty to start with. Not sure if the colored squares in Metro or the 2-color palette in Office 2013 and VS 2012 are the answer but at least it does not look like korean cars fake wood panels.

Re:Clang Clang (2)

Kielistic (1273232) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813847)

It can be eye candy and some people do like it. Whether or not you like it does not change the fact that many people do seem to genuinely think it looks good.

Re:Clang Clang (5, Insightful)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813771)

So you'd rather have the OS chew up cycles than let the apps have them?

You have any idea how fast a modern computer is? An icore7 has 70,000 mips (millions of instructions per second!) For a comparison the 1984 Mac had 3 mips. Your computer you are reading this on is 20,000 faster than the first successful graphical computer.

Now lets talk about the GPU. I do not have hardcore numbers like I did with the CPU but 10 to 100s of billions of pixels rendering a second has been the norm for years and this is true even for a crappy intel integrated graphics.

In 1990 yes, your argument made sense as 8 colors could substancely lower the cost and increase the performance of your system. Today 32-bit graphics use 16.7 million graphics per pixel! This is regular standard Windows 7 colors as designers on workstations use up to 48-bit.

So I want my AERO, compiz, and pretty eye candy since I have this awesome supercomputer and it is asthetically pleasing much the same way of having nice interior does not signficiantly slow down the performance of your car due to the extra 7 pounds it adds. I love text that flows smoothly on my Android phone and hate how browsers are choppy on a full powered desktop unless I go in and tweak the 3d settings and smooth scrool. Though, Firefox and IE 10 are getting better.

I like the current system because it is what I am used too as well and see no need to replace it. Only difference is I use Google to search for things instead of using a gui, but that is it.

jony!!!! (4, Insightful)

the_B0fh (208483) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813353)

Hopefully, we'll get better UI designs

Re:jony!!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813727)

it's called android

Ten years too late (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813359)

Forestall does pretty good work, but he's always been too proud to listen when someone else has a better idea. He shouldn't be working on products that are used by hundreds of millions of people all around the world.

The thought of him working directly under Tim Cook, who doesn't know much about product design, has always made me uncomfortable.

Hooray for Ive, he's possibly the best engineer I have ever heard of, except for maybe Wozniak. This is a good day for Apple.

Re:Ten years too late (5, Funny)

MightyMartian (840721) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813475)

This reads like a Stalinist missive regarding the liquidation of some member of the Politburo.

Re:Ten years too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813699)

This reads like a Stalinist missive regarding the liquidation of some member of the Politburo.

Forestall left with millions in the bank. It's not like he was shot.

As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (2, Insightful)

GoatCheez (1226876) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813361)

It seems more and more each day that he really was the glue that held the vision together.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (5, Interesting)

kd6ttl (1016559) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813421)

Because he had some perfectionist tendencies. That was one thing that set Apple apart from Microsoft - you might not like what they did, but they usually did it thoroughly. That seems to be falling apart a bit.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (1, Insightful)

poetmatt (793785) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813497)

Actually, true of most companies - let alone technology companies.

Most companies just want to be successful and don't give a shit about the quality of anything.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (5, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813501)

Indeed. The maps fiasco is more like something that came out of Redmond than out of Apple. I can well imagine Ballmer going "So it doesn't work? Well fuck it. Release it anyways." Basically he's done that on a few occasions. But Jobs, egomaniacal control freak that he was, would never have allowed it to go to production like that.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (5, Interesting)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813723)

He let Siri go live. In fact, he saved it for himself to announce in the last keynote he did. The key distinction there is that he set expectations appropriately with Siri. He introduced it as a beta that was still in need of work, but that he thought it was ready to show and to let others use. He explained that there would be issues, but that they'd work them out. Had they done the same with Maps, there would not have been such a big issue. But because Forstall showed off a perfect demo and claimed the usual "just works" level of polish, anything less than that would mean a big disappointment. And it was a disappointment for many people when it didn't just work.

Honestly, Steve Jobs let several things go live that shouldn't have. Remember the MobileMe release? Heads rolled over that, with one Senior Vice President getting the boot. That was actually a much bigger deal at the time than this Maps thing is now.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (3, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813755)

The "but this is a beta" approach with Maps wouldn't have been good enough. Siri was something that was portrayed as new and innovative. It wasn't something where they were trying to create a higher level of vertical integration by replacing an already well established feature.

There are important distinctions some times. Apple fans sometimes miss those.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (4, Insightful)

TheLink (130905) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813769)

The difference was not using Siri was less of a problem. Decent maps and map functionality have become a requirement for many smartphone users.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813845)

Indeed. The maps fiasco is more like something that came out of Redmond than out of Apple. I can well imagine Ballmer going "So it doesn't work? Well fuck it. Release it anyways." Basically he's done that on a few occasions. But Jobs, egomaniacal control freak that he was, would never have allowed it to go to production like that.

Have we already forgotten about MobileMe?

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (4, Informative)

scheme (19778) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813773)

Because he had some perfectionist tendencies. That was one thing that set Apple apart from Microsoft - you might not like what they did, but they usually did it thoroughly. That seems to be falling apart a bit.

Sort of like how mobileme worked amazingly well out of the box. Or how about siri working well with accents or just in general with a variety of voices. Same deal with the antennas on the iphone 4. Apple has a fairly long history of hardware issues on their first version of any new hardware. Steve Jobs being a perfectionist didn't prevent this.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (3, Interesting)

tom229 (1640685) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813445)

Although it may seem that way I believe they would have seen this decline in innovation and popularity anyways. Apple needs to constantly produce extraordinarily innovative products to trump it's arrogant and draconian business practices. The mobile phone market was controlled by a bunch of lazy fat dinosaurs when apple entered the game flush with iPod cash. They helped move the paradigm for sure, but the market is too competitive for them to continue to innovate on that scale anymore, and it's definitely time for them to go away. We'll all be much better off without them.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813491)

Steve ran the job of pretty much everyone at the company. It can hid incompetence as we know Sirii and Maps would have not made IOS6 if Jobs were at the helm. He would go ballastic and quickly put the older versions in 6 and tweak them for 7 instead.

The woman who invented the fonts for the 1984 mac had a daily chat with Steve. EVERY DAY ... for a freaking font to make sure it would look just write. You think Bill Gates did that? Nope. He did the opposite. Worry about it next release and focus on strategy. This would also explain the Star Trek release schedule. Just put it out first etc. Jobs wouldn't let anything go if it were not ready.

Now with Steve gone the real producers are showing themselves. The ones who are not are also. Personally I do not understand what was wrong with their stores as they are still making retail sales. Ios? I can see that was a big blow.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (2)

cpt kangarooski (3773) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813659)

Well, Steve wasn't running Apple back in the day; Mike Scott and Mike Markkula were. Steve's youth, temperament, and inexperience were among the reasons for bringing in Sculley as well, and we all know what happened then. His position in Apple after he returned was very, very different than it had been before.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813837)

Apple was very successful before he left and was making billions befor IBM even had the first PC. Scully was CEO in name while Steve ran everything. The shareholders who think MBAs who have a specialty in management are more important than someone who knows the industry felt uncomfortable with Steve since he didn't have a college degree were a better fit.

In other words to get the capital he had to suck it up. Not because Steve was an aweful CEO. Back then not everyone had paper MBAs and the investors had this all exclusive club.

Re:As much as I hate Steve Jobs.... (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813641)

Actually it was his vision. Without Jobs there is no vision. I wonder how long the momentum will hold up.

Short AAPL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813417)

700 was the top. The company is falling apart.

Huge missed opportunity. (5, Insightful)

csumpi (2258986) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813419)

[Apple] Steve's gone. Let's turn the page. We'll stop being dicks, no more lawsuits.

[Google] Sounds good. We'll give you maps with turn-by-turn navigation.

Re:Huge missed opportunity. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813559)

[Apple] Oh, and we trust you'll shut down that silly little Android thing you've been doing.

Re:Huge missed opportunity. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813833)

[Google] Suck a dick.

Re:Huge missed opportunity. (2, Funny)

asifyoucare (302582) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813911)

[Tim Cook] Yummy.

(not that there's anything wrong with that).

Re:Huge missed opportunity. (3, Insightful)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813881)

[Apple] Oh, and we trust you'll shut down that silly little Android thing you've been doing.

[Google] Sure no problem, just sign here to buy your ads from Google from now until eternity.

Tim Cook's leadership ... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813427)

What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?

He is going to lead and hold people accountable?

Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (0)

mjwx (966435) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813877)

What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?

He is going to lead and hold people accountable?

No, he's going to purge the previous leadership and replace them with his friends and/or lackeys.

Why to fanboys continually think that Apple works differently to other corporations. This is a stock standard procedure in any corporate change of leadership.

Re:Tim Cook's leadership ... (3, Interesting)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813895)

What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?

He is going to lead and hold people accountable?

Err, are you suggesting that Tim Cook was not involved in Apple's recent string of blunders? Perhaps that he didn't know what was going on? Or that he did, but did not understand the consequences? Good luck with that.

Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813435)

For example, the way the OS X Address Book attempts to resemble
a paper address book. This is pointless and stupid and the only
people it could possibly appeal to are idiots who probably don't
use a computer for anything more than surfing the web anyway.

This is the kind of crap that insults me when I see it on a computer I
paid a lot of money to buy.

If Ive gets rid of this crap, he will have my everlasting appreciation.

Also, and MUCH more important : Apple MUST quit trying to blend the
interface used by OS X with the interface used by iOS. The result of
such attempts at blending is stuff that is annoying and awful to use and
it is an insult to a user who has a modicum of intelligence. QUIT THIS
SHIT, Tim Cook, or your legacy will be that of the guy who fucked up
a good thing, and that is not a legacy anyone with honor wants.

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (2)

Jeremy Erwin (2054) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813523)

I, for one, think that ios and mac integration is useful-- when I want a portable device, I use my ipad. When I want to use my large screens and keyboard, I use my imac and it's helpful if I can share data (especially safari tabs) through iCloud.

Skeuomorphism, though, is silly.

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (0, Troll)

Jarik C-Bol (894741) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813763)

ok, anti skeuomophic people, answer me a few simple questions.
what do you propose to use to replace the following (when text is not an option)
the 'save icon'
the 'home' icon in browsers
the 'address book' icon
the phone icon


all of these are skeuomorphic icons, the floppy disk being the most outdated (in some regards anyhow). I agree that texturing the address book application itself to look like a spiral bound leather book with parchment pages is a waste of cycles, but skeuomorphics do have there (limited) place in a non textual interface.

The problem with eliminating the less decorative skeuomorphics (like the save button) is that, while (young) people who never used floppy disks may not know what it is a picture of, they do know what it *does*. If you start eradicating them from your system, and replacing them with whatever you see fit, people are going to hate it.
Just try any piece of software that has done exactly that (you run into it in cheep games a bit, and bad free software all the time)

All existing users have been trained to know that the little 'square thing with two rectangles in it' (floppy disk) means save, so why retrain everyone, because the untrained don't know yet?

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813797)

Wtf is a save icon?

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (1)

MisterSquid (231834) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813717)

The result of
such attempts at blending is stuff that is annoying and awful to use and
it is an insult to a user who has a modicum of intelligence. QUIT THIS
SHIT, Tim Cook, or your legacy will be that of the guy who fucked up
a good thing, and that is not a legacy anyone with honor wants.

Speaking of fecal matter, take a look at this comic's prescient 13th item [geekculture.com] ! Dun dun DUN

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813721)

For example, the way the OS X Address Book attempts to resemble
a paper address book. This is pointless and stupid and the only
people it could possibly appeal to are idiots who probably don't
use a computer for anything more than surfing the web anyway.

This is the kind of crap that insults me when I see it on a computer I
paid a lot of money to buy.

What a moron, real pros use vi from the terminal to keep track of their addresses.

Re:Skeuomorphic design is useless and stupid (2)

mjwx (966435) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813901)

If Ive gets rid of this crap, he will have my everlasting appreciation.

Also, and MUCH more important : Apple MUST quit trying to blend the interface used by OS X with the interface used by IOS.

Why?

This is what Apple wants, to blur the lines between OSX and IOS so that they can get rid of OSX on most, if not all devices. They're just using the "boiling the frog" method to avoid users from jumping out of the pot.

It Says ... (5, Insightful)

Compulawyer (318018) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813447)

...that Tim Cook has firmly taken the reins and is going to start running Apple the way he sees fit, with his team - not the team that was there when he took over.

Re:It Says ... (0)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813913)

...that Tim Cook has firmly taken the reins and is going to start running Apple the way he sees fit, with his team - not the team that was there when he took over.

Feelgood spin for iFans. Mod to 6.

Jony Ive should be in charge of everything there. (4, Interesting)

mosb1000 (710161) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813449)

He's the one who designed all their successful products, after all.

Re:Jony Ive should be in charge of everything ther (1)

ikaruga (2725453) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813879)

I don't think apple, just like most big business, ever really recognized actual work. Steve Wozniak never got the recognition he deserved back in the 80s so I doubt Jony Ive will get his. As long as Tim Cook manages to put up a show and keep numbers like 5 million iPhones pre-orders, he will be the boss. By the way, some current bad choices, such as Siri current low capabilities and the use of skeuomorphic interfaces, were made when Jobs was still alive.

If Ballmer's career is any indication... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813463)

I'd say that Tim Cook's leadership still has 11 years to get worse.

Scott Forstall: good riddance. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813467)

Scott Forstall thought he was Steve Jobs, but he clearly was not. Slimy egomaniac. (OK, Steve Jobs was an egomaniac. Just not a slimy one.)

Re:Scott Forstall: good riddance. (4, Interesting)

cpt kangarooski (3773) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813685)

Oh I don't know, Steve was fairly slimy. His treatment of Chrissann Brennan, for example, or how he cheated Woz out of money when Steve was at Atari.

well that explains a lot (5, Insightful)

je ne sais quoi (987177) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813469)

So if you head over to macrumors.com, the posters are gleefully proclaiming the death of skeuomorphic design in iOS and OS X. This is a good thing. The leather stitching, the ridiculous animations in ical, the stupid contacts list, the game center that made me feel like I trapped in some creepy casino with chain smokers and octagenarian gambling addicts: this is all gone, and good riddance to bad rubbish. However, on the other hand, if you read this article [fastcodesign.com] with the following very interesting passage:

Inside Apple, tension has brewed for years over the issue. Apple iOS SVP Scott Forstall is said to push for skeuomorphic design, while industrial designer Jony Ive and other Apple higher-ups are said to oppose the direction. "You could tell who did the product based on how much glitz was in the UI," says one source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process.

After reading that, I realized that this was indeed true and in fact there has been an alternate philosphy besides the skeuomorphic design which is the "war on color" in some aspects of OS X (e.g., the flat gray scroll bars, the gray linen background for the virtual desktop manager, even the world map for changing the time zone). So, now I'm wondering if the skeuomorphic faction led by Forstall has lost the debate, was Ive and the other minimalist design people behind the "war on color" and if that's true, is that what we'll see in future versions of the OS with Ive leading the interface design? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I really don't like using an OS that is drab and boring, it's depressing (I actually liked Aqua for the most part, which was also Forstall's invention I guess). Either way, it's good to know that Apple isn't afraid of rocking the boat still. That skeuomorphic crap might have been good for increasing everyone's vocabulary with regards to interface design, but it was annoying as hell to use.

Now, if only Apple would admit they screwed up the document versioning system beyond repair and give us a proper "Save As..." since the dawn of the computer (or thereabouts) I would consider Apple as having fully realized the error of their ways and moving decidedly in a less terrible direction. But alas, Federhigi is still in charge and they haven't brought Serlet back from retirement unfortunately.

Re:well that explains a lot (4, Insightful)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813637)

Color is fine in a UI as long as it means something. If it's just decoration that creates cognitive load with no user benefit. Apple abandoned this idea back with pinstriping, Aqua, and whatever that look they had was called that was supposed to look like metal stereo components. I happened upon a System 7.6 machine the other day. I really felt much less frenetic than the modern machines.

Oh, the same goes for animations. They can be useful or they can be glam. Glam wastes my time and focus.

BTW, good idea, Apple, announcing a top floor slaughter while Wall St. is closed and a natural disaster is playing out.

Re:well that explains a lot (2)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813639)

the game center that made me feel like I trapped in some creepy casino with chain smokers and octagenarian gambling addicts

The fact that it made you feel like that means it succeeded at drawing you in. It wasn't the effect they wanted, but it implies that a skeuomorphic interface does have a use. And it does. It isn't innately bad (note the similarity to Microsoft's ribbon interface: it isn't innately bad, but Microsoft's implementation makes it hard to use).

I'm not sure how I feel about that, I really don't like using an OS that is drab and boring

The War on Color won't be too bad, I don't think; it's more like 'use color sparingly to increase its impact.' Look at the way the colored ipads shine in front of a sparse background in an ad like this [howmanyarethere.net] .

Re:well that explains a lot (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813645)

btw I wanted to mention that I find your comment insightful.

Re:well that explains a lot (1)

Clubbah (1796660) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813747)

I agree with the war on color. I liked Snow Leopard color here and there to Lion and Mt.Lion. The skeuomorphic doesn't really bother me as much as some people. I can't even spell it.

The only issue I have with your comment is whether Ive prefers color or drab. He did design the original iMac which was massive color in a beige box world. I suspect his taste changes with the times.

Time will tell.

Siri and iMaps is a TV joke now (4, Interesting)

Nyder (754090) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813471)

Look, it's bad when people on TV use Siri and iMaps as a joke for a bunch of different shows. I've seen it on commericals, sitcoms, and of course stand up comedy.

Granted it's more Siri related, but the iMaps get said a bit also.

Siri i can understand not working, we are talking speech recognition, but a map program? That is seriously bad.

Lets see how they fix it though.

 

Just another case of office politics (4, Insightful)

afgam28 (48611) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813499)

It's well known that Scott Forstall didn't get along with the others. He's been called a "mini-Steve (Jobs)" and described as "maddeningly political":

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html [businessweek.com]

If he was ousted, it's probably due more to the others thinking he's an asshole. The Maps debacle provides a convenient excuse, but I doubt it's the real reason behind this. This is just another political backstabbing, that's all.

Re:Just another case of office politics (2)

ThatsMyNick (2004126) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813519)

I hope they dont have to recall him, like they had to for Jobs.

Re:Just another case of office politics (4, Funny)

MrDoh! (71235) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813791)

He wasn't exactly fired as such. Just told to do a Starbucks run for everyone before the meeting, and if he's not back in an hour, don't come back. "Oh, and you have to use Apple Maps" Thus the problem solved itself.

Scott Forstall's departure was planned. (5, Informative)

MacTechnic (40042) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813589)

If you check SEC company executive stock records, one can find that Scott Forstall has sold off his Apple Stock options earlier this year, in preparation for a possible departure. His departure has actually been planned for several weeks, but was not announced until today along with the departure of John Browett, who was Sr. VP for Retails operations for Apple.

The current executive reorganization of Mr. Forstall's duties have been spread over several senior Apple executives, distributing responsibilities according to their current function. Read the press release to see the respective changes.

Some people have speculated that Scott Forstall might be the ultimate successor to Steve Jobs, since he came with Steve from NeXT computer back to Apple in 1997. He has been involved in the development of Mac OS X, including heading the Leopard OS development and development of the Aqua user interface in OS X, along with leading the development of iPhone and later iOS system software since 2004.

I don't know what Scott Forstall plans to do, but there is some speculation that he might be involved a project with a former Apple engineer. Needless to say, he probably has a non-compete clause with Apple, he will have respect for a while given his critical involvement with key Apple products like the iPhone, iPad and iOS system software.

I would not be surprised to see Scott come back to Apple sometime in the future, but he has earned a well-earned sabbatical given his recent efforts.

Re:Scott Forstall's departure was planned. (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813815)

Wonder if he's going to hang out within JLG and work on something? In a lot of ways, it sounds like he suffered from being "junior" too long. Being perpetually the "favorite kid" without the others seeing why.

He needs a chance to do his own thing. He was good enough to lead the iOS team in "skunkworks" mode... But at the same time, Steve's secrecy basically screwed him over. Give the guy a few months off and he can get pretty much any project and any VC money he wants.

Re:Scott Forstall's departure was planned. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813917)

>Needless to say, he probably has a non-compete clause with Apple

Generally speaking, non competes are not legal in CA.

Scott won't be missed. (4, Interesting)

ericdano (113424) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813603)

Scott has been messing up. The interface designs are getting out of control on iOS and OS X, and hopefully Ive will fix that. Maps and Siri still don't work as advertised (though they are getting better all the time). I don't think Scott will be missed. It makes a LOT of sense to reorganize how they did, though Mansfeld though should have retired......

The other guy, good riddance. His managing of the Apple Stores is questionable to say the least.

skeuomorphic interfaces (1, Informative)

pongo000 (97357) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813655)

From Wikipedia: "[Interfaces that emulate] objects in the physical world."

Don't lie and say you knew what that meant. You didn't...

Re:skeuomorphic interfaces (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813703)

submittor here. yeah, I knew what it meant. that's why i used that word. thanks for the close read.

It means Apple has peaked (2, Interesting)

kawabago (551139) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813695)

Apple has already produced it's best ever products and it is on the way down now. Nothing new or exciting will come out of Apple in future.

Re:It means Apple has peaked (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813775)

What the fuck is wrong with that?

Seriously?

Once you achieve perfection, where is there to go? Apple is a long, long ways away from that. But let's just say that this is a hypothetical scenario where iOS and OS X are the clean, lean, and efficient systems they should be where everything has a purpose and a place, and nothing gets in your way. They're the epitome of computing and nothing else can be done to further their design or innovation.

What then? According to you, there's nowhere to go but down. What is wrong with achieving something fantastic and rolling with that for a while? What's wrong with a little stability for once?

I'm not sure what dream world you live in, but I live in a place called "the real world". And in the real world, I don't need "new" and "exciting". I need shit that works. If it doesn't work (like many of Apple's recent decisions in terms of software), then I've got a problem- and I don't have the time to sit around for something else "new" and "exciting" and pray that it replaces the old defective implementation with something better.

I can't believe that people like you can honestly get bored with something (even though it might work perfectly), and demand change simply for the sake of change. Because that sort of mentality is exactly why a good portion of the tech world is as fucked up as it is right now.

Re:It means Apple has peaked (4, Interesting)

aaronb1138 (2035478) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813841)

The whole point you are making happened many years ago, arguably before Steve came back. Every "innovation" Apple has had over the past ten years was someone else's idea given just enough refinement and advertising to get consumers to like it.

Smartphone, that was IBM, Microsoft, Sony, and RIM long before Apple. Apple just managed to consumerize ideas from the corporate tool world. The same goes for tablets. Microsoft never moved their primary UI to be compatible before now with touch and stylus interaction, but Gates kept evangelizing the concept until Jobs actually went and had a regular OS trimmed and locked down to where touch was easy for the uninitiated. Even the iPod was nowhere near the first or best MP3 player, but Apple managed to leverage iTunes and advertising, never superior hardware, to sell lots of hardware. Ultrabook (MBA)? Fujitsu, Sony, NEC, and Toshiba had powerful fully spec'd ultra compact laptops available overseas for 5 or 6 years prior (Dynamism was the primary importer for US buyers).

Apple is not losing their edge, they are simply having to compete now that other OEMs and software developers have had time to develop consumer, rather than professionally oriented products, in markets which have been gestating for several years. Apple has never done well competing on even ground.

Forseen (3, Interesting)

U8MyData (1281010) | about a year and a half ago | (#41813891)

Here we go. I saw something like this coming from Apple. Steve was the glue that held the helm. No doubt Apple's market experience has been tough with all the battles going on, but the color of Apple is changing. Expect more I'm affraid... For the record, I'm just an Oracle. I know nothing...

Steve Jobs said... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813893)

That there's no way they will do a smaller iPad... Tim Cook says... "Yes, we can!"

Newton! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41813921)

Can we have NewtonOS back now please?

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