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Rasterman On The Impending Release of Enlightenment 17

Unknown Lamer posted about a year and a half ago | from the waiting-on-hurd dept.

Enlightenment 117

In development for the better part of the last decade, the 0.17 release of the Enlightenment window manager is slated for November 5th. Leading up to this, the H has an enlightening interview with project lead Rasterman on what to expect. From the article: "Today Enlightenment offers most of what you get from GNOME and KDE, and probably the same if not a bit more than XFCE. It just doesn't try and ship a suite of apps with it. It is the desktop (Window manager, settings, file manager, application launching and management) minus the apps. ... The biggest thing E17 brings to the table is universal compositing. This means you can use a composited desktop without any GPU acceleration at all, and use it nicely. We don't rely on software fallback implementations of OpenGL. We literally have a specific software engine that is so fast that some developers spent weeks using it accidentally, not realizing they had software compositing on their setup."

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117 comments

Very Cool... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830765)

Awesome. Best Eyecandy desktop. Ever.

Re:Very Cool... (5, Funny)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830809)

So. Slashdot will die, as it began - with dev update news on the Enlightenment project. :-)

Where's my Windowmaker submission?

Re:Very Cool... (5, Informative)

0racle (667029) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830897)

Right here [slashdot.org] from February 2012.

Re:Very Cool... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831069)

As a current WindowMaker user, I resent that comment, you insensitive clod.

Re:Very Cool... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831409)

Pretty sure it's 'resemble' and me too. Enlightenment might become my 3rd tier WM behind WindowMaker and Xfce however.

Re:Very Cool... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41833201)

Pretty sure resemble and resent are two different things :P

Re:Very Cool... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41832851)

WindowMaker is Afterstep's bitch.

Re:Very Cool... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41833121)

When I read this paragraph-headline on the front page, I mouthed "Slashdot is dying".

I'm so glad to be in good company. Do your best! Also, vote!

-Tom

Re:Very Cool... (1)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833551)

After all, "Netcraft confirms it..."

MEEEPT!

Re:Very Cool... (3, Informative)

rwa2 (4391) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833593)

So. Slashdot will die, as it began - with dev update news on the Enlightenment project. :-)

Where's my Windowmaker submission?

Grr... I'm still looking for WindowMaker features in some of my "modern" WMs...

* Desktop naming. It had a great effect where you could name each desktop with a task or whatever (mine were usually "Main", "Web", "Graphics", and "Root") and they would flash and fade briefly onscreen whenever you switched desktops. Haven't seen any other desktop manager try to do that. I faked something like that using xosd, but that's kinda clunky and persists too long when jumping over multiple desktops.

* Clip : a desktop-sensitive dock. This is a great idea... it worked a lot like the Windows 7 taskbar does now, where an app would appear there when you're using it, and you have the option of permanently attaching it to the clip on that desktop. I'm annoyed with most docks / taskbars that get cluttered up with everything... but it makes sense to have one for each desktop, so you could have all your graphics programs in your toolchain on one desktop clip, web tools on another, admin tools on another. etc.

* WM dockapps : These little monitors were great! I mostly just using gkrellm and its plugins now, though, which is probably more efficient and flexible.

* Awesome skinability : it was ridiculously simple to create themes, for the most part it was just a background, a handful of titlebar textures, and some color selections, and it would do the rest of the work. Done!

Only reason I stopped using WM was because it didn't do compositing... I needs me my transparent xterms :P

Re:Very Cool... (1)

neurovish (315867) | about a year and a half ago | (#41834153)

XFCE? ....
Actually looking for the option, I did not find it...google gave me this page though, http://askubuntu.com/questions/15971/getting-visual-feedback-of-workspace-switch-in-xfce [askubuntu.com]

I know one of the window managers I've used frequently in the past would do that...I thought XFCE, but maybe it was a *box or Enlightenment. Middle click in xfce will show you workspace names, and you can change them.

Re:Very Cool... (3, Informative)

raster (13531) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839733)

Desktop naming: E17 does this. :) it flashes not just the name but a full preview of all desktops in a "larger size" with their contents etc.
Clip: e17 shelf. can be customized per desktop.

WM dockapps: e17 modules+gadgets. not separate processes but plug-ins so they hare generally lighter weight - you CAN implement them as a module "glue" plus slave process if u like.

Awesome skinability: we have a whole toolset for it. edje_cc compiles them and after that just select the output edj file from the theme browser. the theme though is complex, but insanely powerful.

Compositing: yeah. E17 dos that too. it also solve world peace and hunger. :)

Re:Very Cool... (1)

_merlin (160982) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831517)

Awesome. Best Eyecandy desktop. Ever.

No way man! The best eyecandy desktop would have to have boobs on it! I see no boobs in TFA! (I know, I'm not supposed to read it, but the there was the promise of eyecandy!)

Re:Very Cool... (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | about a year and a half ago | (#41834349)

E is mostly masturbation. It was a major desktop option in Mandrake 7.2 but that was it.

Re:Very Cool... (1)

markhb (11721) | about a year and a half ago | (#41835247)

ISTR it was the default option in Red Hat Linux at some point in the late '90s, when the logo featured the weird kris-knife thing (or maybe it was a drizzle of solder).

Re:Very Cool... (1)

deek (22697) | about a year and a half ago | (#41837705)

If E is mostly masturbation, then I have been masturbating for the last four or five years. Daily. At work and at home. In front of friends and family.

Even more, if you count E16, although I only switched to using E17 at work around four or five years ago.

Re:Very Cool... (1)

raster (13531) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839743)

And it feels so good...

On target for 1.0 in 3010 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830771)

Just kidding.

Re:On target for 1.0 in 3010 (1)

rnturn (11092) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833205)

Why? Jeez, I've been reading about E17 for so long now that it I'm starting to wonder if the thing'll ever see the light of day. A 3010 release doesn't seem all that unlikely the way it's been going. (Did they bring in the release manager from the Duke Nukem team?)

Re:On target for 1.0 in 3010 (1)

Lennie (16154) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833345)

They've been releasing new versions of their libraries regularly for the past few years.

So yes, they will release it soon enough.

Re:On target for 1.0 in 3010 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41837067)

Soon enough for what? For dinosaurs to re-evolve? For the sun to explode? For RMS to issue the GNU OS??

Software fallback? (0)

Hatta (162192) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830815)

We don't rely on software fallback implementations of OpenGL. We literally have a specific software engine that is so fast that some developers spent weeks using it accidentally, not realizing they had software compositing on their setup."

How is that not a software fallback? Did they mean to say that they wrote their own software fallback?

Re:Software fallback? (1)

TWX (665546) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830843)

That's what I was thinking.

It also got me thinking, that since they use some kind of a wrapper that developers interface to, one could just as easily implement a new wrapper to use OpenGL or a hardware solution if one knows the specifications. Hell, maybe someone will write a DirectX wrapper!

Re:Software fallback? (4, Informative)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830859)

How is that not a software fallback?

They didn't say it's not a software fallback, they say it isn't a software fallback implementation of OpenGL.

Re:Software fallback? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830883)

I'm guessing it's not done by implementing the opengl API. It's probably done at a higher level.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

raster (13531) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839763)

it is.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830907)

Yes, when you chop out part of the sentence it makes it easy to criticize as seeming to contradict itself. They said they don't rely on "software fallback implementations of OpenGL". You're supposed to read to the end of the sentence.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

nedlohs (1335013) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830909)

Because it's no an implementation of openGL would be the obvious conclusion if you read the claim.

Re:Software fallback? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830929)

We don't rely on software fallback implementations of OpenGL.
How is that not a software fallback?

They're not using a software fallback implementation of OpenGL. Since compositing windows doesn't require 3D mesh rendering, etc. this can be faster and more purpose-tuned than a generic software OpenGL.

Did they mean to say that they wrote their own software fallback?

I suspect what they *meant* is for you to use your reading comprehension skills, which the taxpayer worked hard to provide for you.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

Atzanteol (99067) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831999)

Oh snap!

Re:Software fallback? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830935)

They're saying it runs so fast, it's hard to tell the difference. I've tried, and I agree.

Re:Software fallback? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831075)

What they mean is that Gnome et al are going ahead with a fancy-pants windowing system that only knows how to composite and draw using OpenGL.

They used to have the option of either an optimised 2D renderer, or a naive OpenGL renderer that went fast because there's dedicated hardware to compute it.

The problem with injecting an extra layer of abstraction is that it prevents optimisation. Any software-only OpenGL implementation has to be ready to correctly render any OpenGL commands, including lighting, texturing and so on. The OpenGL software renderer's author can't presume that only X is calling it, and therefore only a subset of the rendering possibilities will be needed.

Enlightenment is taking the opposite approach. Instead of using a subset of a generalised graphics API and leaving the people without dedicated graphics cards to the slowness of Mesa, they have fast, optimised, specific graphics code for people without graphics cards.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831149)

It probably helps that these guys have been doing this eye candy stuff since long before it occurred to anyone else to do it. A lot of their stuff probably just predates any of the accelerated OpenGL stuff on Linux.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

aztracker1 (702135) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832253)

That doesn't make it a bad decision to stick with it... I find that more recent versions of gnome/unity/kde can be very sluggish on even modern hardware. I just want a usable desktop with a modest amount of eye candy that runs well. I really like the Win7 taskbar the best currently... Would say that the Mint desktop is probably a distant second, followed by osx. It's sad MS had to f*ck it all up with Win8.

Re:Software fallback? (2)

raster (13531) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839789)

Actually it doesn't pre-date it. it came after GL started to work on Linux, but when GL still was way too immature to use for 2D. in fact it was GL beginning to work on linux back in the earl 2000's that pushed EFL's current design- to plan for a future where GL will be a primary rendering path, but provide a software version for when that doesn't pan out to be the best idea. it was all DESIGNED to abstract between back-end from the ground up and one of the design goals was to use both GL and software back-ends highly efficiently. and it's paid off handsomely now that it's being used for compositing.

E has the best of both worlds. full GL accelerated compositing (if you have the drivers/hardware) or a software version for when you don't. we don't drop features, we just switch which part of your machine is doing the work, and we made sure if it's on a CPU, it'd done fast enough to be totally usable, which it is.

Re:Software fallback? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831263)

Enlightenment is taking the opposite approach. Instead of using a subset of a generalised graphics API and leaving the people without dedicated graphics cards to the slowness of Mesa, they have fast, optimised, specific graphics code for people without graphics cards.

Thank God for Enlightenment. Now I hope it won't take another decade for the next update lol.
Good job guys, between you, the XFCE guys, the Afterstep project and Windowmaker we poor bastard pc desktop computer users still have choice. Now if we could only burn down GNOME and KDE.

Re:Software fallback? (2)

DrXym (126579) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831971)

GNOME has begun using llvmpipe to do software rasterisation. As the name suggests it's implemented using a low level virtual machine instruction language which is generated at runtime and compiled into optimal machine code for the hardware it's running on. It could in theory split rendering over multiple cores, or take advantage of any hardware acceleration around to make itself faster than other mesa software rasterizers. As far as the client side is concerned it's just an OpenGL driver which makes it very easy to program to while still making optimal use of what's available.

I doubt it's going to win prizes for performance against a proper GPU especially for playing games but it should be adequate for running GNOME or Unity on a semi modern setup.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about a year and a half ago | (#41835071)

a low level virtual machine instruction language which is generated at runtime and compiled into optimal machine code for the hardware it's running on

All that for a pretty desktop environment?

Re:Software fallback? (2)

DrXym (126579) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839783)

Compositing isn't just about a "pretty desktop". On modern hardware it results in a faster, more responsive desktop. Moving all the window content into graphical surfaces means that the GPU can render the desktop a lot faster. It also means the desktop doesn't have to send out a flurry of damage events when windows are moved around over each other which in turn saves a lot of performance degrading context switches and follow-up repaints. It also means desktops can contemplate using scenegraphs (e.g. clutter) to provide context sensitive functionality which might mean moving windows around or shrinking / thumbnailing / hiding them or whatever.

Now it may be that some desktops throw in eye candy on top, but that doesn't detract from what compositing desktops offer. Even desktops not traditionally known for their looks such as xfce will make use of it if its present.

Re:Software fallback? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831253)

We don't rely on software fallback implementations of OpenGL. We literally have a specific software engine that is so fast that some developers spent weeks using it accidentally, not realizing they had software compositing on their setup."

How is that not a software fallback? Did they mean to say that they wrote their own software fallback?

Moron.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

OrangeTide (124937) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833407)

We don't rely on software fallback implementations of OpenGL.

prepositions sure are hard.

Re:Software fallback? (1)

raster (13531) | about a year and a half ago | (#41839757)

rely on software fallbacks *OF OPENGL* i.e. mes'a s software implementations (swrast/llvmpipe). there is a special software rendering engine that is unrelated to opengl in any way or form. it's the same software engine powering the rest of the display/widgets/gadgets/wallpaper etc. it happens to also do the compositing. it ALSO happens to be switchable between software and GL and thus why comopsiting CAN use GL.

Will it include a "Duke Nukem Forever" applet? (1)

dpilot (134227) | about a year and a half ago | (#41830839)

Similar development cycles, hopefully E17 won't land with the same *thud* as DNF.

Re:Will it include a "Duke Nukem Forever" applet? (2)

characterZer0 (138196) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831025)

E17 is not just landing. I have been using it for 7 years now. There have been some bugs and occasionally configuration broke on upgrade, but it has been usable. It is just approaching official release.

Re:Will it include a "Duke Nukem Forever" applet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831707)

Do you have a good looking theme? I know that this shouldn't be a deciding factor but I can't stand the super gradient everywhere theme that was default last time I tried E17.

Re:Will it include a "Duke Nukem Forever" applet? (1)

characterZer0 (138196) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832207)

That has not been the default for a long time (years maybe).

Re:Will it include a "Duke Nukem Forever" applet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41832615)

Think the Wayland guys are a little disgusted?

Great job Rasterman and team (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830879)

Been using e17 for the better part of the last decade. It might not have been released, but CVS head (now SVN head) has usually been completely stable to run.

I hope more folks adopt EFL (Enlightenment foundation libraries) for their projects too. It would be great to just have to re-theme an app to use it on a phone, or a desktop with keyboard as EFL allows you to do.

Again, congrats on coming through with a full featured, fast, lightweight, with all the eye candy you could want, and limitless customization allowing, window manager/desktop.

Re:Great job Rasterman and team (1)

epSos-de (2741969) | about a year and a half ago | (#41837565)

Can you please compare it with the latest Xfce and tell the good parts ?

Composting? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41830993)

Software, like Nature herself, must rely on the process of composting to ensure the continual renewal and evolution.

Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831005)

The architecture behind Enlightenment is really nice. It's fast as hell because it's written like all software should be written. That is, the developers don't assume it's "fast enough" and ignore optimization because it runs well enough on their 16 Ghz machine with a terabyte of RAM.

However, the actual usability of E is bizarre. At first it seems neat because it fast and funky but after using it for a few weeks it starts to give me a headache. It's just too weird, it looks weird, behaves weird, just weirdness all around.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831129)

"At first it seems neat because it fast and funky but after using it for a few weeks it starts to give me a headache. It's just too weird, it looks weird, behaves weird, just weirdness all around."

Then you are going to utterly LOVE Windows 8. It's built on wierd.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831445)

Actually, it sounds like you come from a windows background.

E17 is great because it still has the interfaces that those of us who cut our teeth on *nix (SunOS for me), find familiar. I can't stand using gnome/kde, because they are pretty much just m$ windows with all the limitations that implies.

Yes, E added an optional start menu thing later for windows noobs (like you?), but it is trivial to disable, and you end up with a clean desktop that is familiar to anyone who has been using *nix / X for decades.

I could see it being weird to a windows user, but then, anything short of aping windows' crappy interface where e.g., you have to move your mouse all the way down to the bottom of the screen just to bring up a menu, you have no virtual desktops, spanning monitors does not take into account that there are multiple monitors, and maybe you want them to be somewhat independent. You can bring up anything, in E, instantly with a simple key press, nearly every feature is fully, and trivially, customizable, etc.... Lots of stuff e17 does that would seem foreign to a windows user (?like yourself).

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831979)

sorry responded to wrong comment. the response above was meant for the poster who said e17 was weird, not the win8 comment to that post.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41832409)

Doesn't matter. It was still just a snarky, snobbish heap of bullshit, not worth posting in the first place.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41834581)

OH SNAP.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41835359)

go back to dinosaur comics you T-REX

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (4, Funny)

Thud457 (234763) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831533)

Then you are going to utterly LOVE Windows 8. It's built on wierd.

No, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (/., probably) that Windows 8 was built on a old Indian burial ground.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (4, Funny)

jd2112 (1535857) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831975)

Wrong, it was built in the pit of Hell by sadistic demons for the purpose of punishing mankind for Comcast throttling Satan's Internet connection.

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year and a half ago | (#41835177)

I am so using that for my new sig.....

Re:Elightenment is nice but also terrible (2)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about a year and a half ago | (#41835105)

Yeah I used EFL components on the openmoko. It was loaded with ifs and buts. Only some components would nest inside other components for example. In swing you can put anything you want inside a ScrollPane. In EFL, only what the developers needed when they wrote it.

It seems it might run on Windows 8... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831013)

...maybe we can use this to fix the newly broken windows 8 UI? Now that would be a laugh. Funny too how it can be used on mobile devices.

GNOME (1)

benjfowler (239527) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831029)

Didn't Enlightenment (and Raster himself) get purged from the GNOME project because the community turned on him because of the poor quality of his code?

Re:GNOME (1)

sebt3 (923707) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831673)

Someone suggesting Rasterman's code quality is bad havent read Rasterman's code obviously

Re:GNOME (3, Informative)

DrXym (126579) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832073)

I seem to recall that he worked for Red Hat and the relationship went sour. I expect Red Hat wanted a professional, functional and clean desktop and GNOME was going the direction they wanted and E wasn't.

Re:GNOME (4, Funny)

gamanimatron (1327245) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832335)

Wow. It's rare that you can actually see sarcasm dipping from a comment.

Re:GNOME (2)

tyrione (134248) | about a year and a half ago | (#41834451)

Wow. It's rare that you can actually see sarcasm dipping from a comment.

And all this time I've been waiting for the drip.

Selective recall? (3, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | about a year and a half ago | (#41838251)

Considering that the email insults that rasters manager cced to all of redhat ended up on the net your expectations could have been easily replaced with fact. Broken promises, an idiot manager that didn't last much longer than raster before being fired outright and a better paid offer in his home country filled out the story. What would you do in that situation? I know I would walk and take my project with me.

Re:GNOME (1)

silviuc (676999) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832093)

Oh yeah, because the gnome project is known for delivering top notch products. Esp true since Gnome 3. Their way of fixing bugs seems to be that of just yanking code out of everything. Does some feature in nautilus not work right? Damn. Sparky, yank it out! Looking forward to the day when all that's left of Gnome is reduced to "Hello World!"

Re:GNOME (2)

jonadab (583620) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832127)

> Didn't Enlightenment (and Raster himself) get purged from the
> GNOME project because the community turned on him because
> of the poor quality of his code?

I think it was more that the Gnome people were (at that time)
determined to have multiple possible Gnome-compliant window
managers so the user would have a choice. (This was _before_
the anti-choice jihad that brought us Gnome 2.) Their plan, at
the time, was to feature a different default window manager in
each release. After Enlightenment, the next one was Sawfish,
which I still use, on account of the fact that it's much better
than the current default Gnome window manager at doing
what I want a window manager to do and staying out of my
way otherwise.

I experimented with going back to Enlightenment, but the
old version had not been maintained sufficiently to really
work on a modern system (e.g. it does not interact as it
should with modern versions of gnome-panel; sawfish on
the other hand does that just fine and thus can be used
as a drop-in replacement for metacity or whatever the new
default wm is in Gnome), and the new Enlightenment,
besides still being in alpha, was also trying to be an entire
desktop environment, one with a new organizational
paradigm to replace traditional overlapping windows,
and that wasn't really what I was looking for, personally.

So I stuck with Sawfish. It works for me. It does what
I want a window manager to do, and it stays out of my
way apart from that.

Re:GNOME (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#41835809)

So I stuck with Sawfish. It works for me. It does what
I want a window manager to do, and it stays out of my
way apart from that.

You should see what you can do about those spurious carriage returns.

Re:GNOME (2)

aok (5389) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832881)

Back when both Rasterman and Alan Cox worked at Red Hat, Alan had mentioned doing a security audit of Raster's code and made a comment that it was rather spagghetti-like.

After the big news of Raster angrily quitting Red Hat, rumours circlated and Alan came out and posted on Slashdot apologizng to Raster stating that he didn't mean to offend him if that's what it was. It wasn't Alan, but an unnamed middle manager that caused Raster to quit.

Re:GNOME (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year and a half ago | (#41838197)

Other way around - raster etc dropped gnome since including it broke all cross platform support in e16 and the 2nd largest contributor to e16 worked on solaris. The gnome people that were more interested in playing politics would not give way and insisted that it be a linux only desktop. Gnome really was such an utter piece of shit back then (before the useless idiots left to play politics elsewhere) that the gnome3 fuss looks trivial.

truly this must be (2)

Swampash (1131503) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831111)

the year of Linux on the desktop!

Re:truly this must be (2)

timeOday (582209) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832983)

Android's marketshare on smartphones is approaching 70%. Linux isn't winning on the desktop, it's outmoding the desktop.

Re:truly this must be (1)

Lennie (16154) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833431)

E17 runs fine on mobile too, look at Tizen.

Hell, it already ran on the old HP IPaq.

Re:truly this must be (1)

Lennie (16154) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833475)

Now that I think about it, I think some company even created a fridge with Internet which uses E17-libraries (called EFL) to provide the GUI/browser experience.

Re:truly this must be (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41834685)

Yep because Google kicked out GNU and yanked out the garbage such as X11 and all the audio layer cruft. Basically the only way Linux succeeds is by being hidden away hence why Google and Android makers never mention Linux in their advertising.

See it to believe it (5, Informative)

water-and-sewer (612923) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831123)

Anyone who wonders if it's going to be a dud, needs to get over to http://www.bodhilinux.com/ [bodhilinux.com] immediately to check out a distro that showcases E17 beautifully (it's Ubuntu underneath). I had some issues on a 64bit desktop but it runs wonderfully on my Core Duo netbook, and it's fast.

Likes: gorgeous, responsive desktop, fast, low memory usage, and it's easy to bend it into whatever shape you like. It offers a pretty standard desktop for anybody sick of Unity/Gnome3 but you can also have some radical interfaces too, like a tiling interface that looks like it would work great on a tablet (in fact I wish I had a Linux tablet I could try it on but am scared to nuke my Google Nexus 7 trying it). The "run anything" gizmo - kind of like Alt-F2 - is fantastic; I think it works better than Gnome_Do and Krunner and even Apple's Quicksilver (which is damned good). Their Terminology terminal is pretty sweet; I increasingly spend 90% of my linux day in it.

Dislikes: it takes a bit of getting used to, and the distinction between modules, shelves, modes, and extensions has taken some time to figure out. My version of E7 (Bodhi 2.0.0) also occasionally segfaults, so there must be some remaining bugs to work out.

But this netbook came with Ubuntu/Gnome and I find Bodhi running E17 to be a huge improvement. I love it. If you want to see what E17 is like, what it does, and what it *can* do, there's no better way to start.

Re:See it to believe it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831297)

Bodhi Linux uses E WM

I tried Bodhi Linux a few versions back and while the experience was somewhat pleasing, I found several bugs and gave up. I may try a newer version in the future.

"Bodhi Linux is an Ubuntu-based distribution for the desktop featuring the elegant and lightweight Enlightenment window manager. The project, which integrates and pre-configures the very latest builds of Enlightenment directly from the project's development repository, offers modularity, high level of customisation, and choice of themes. The default Bodhi system is light -- the only pre-installed applications are Midori, LXTerminal, PCManFM, Leafpad and Synaptic -- but more software is available via Bodhi Software Center, a web-based software installation tool."

http://distrowatch.com/bodhi [distrowatch.com]
http://www.bodhilinux.com/ [bodhilinux.com]
http://forums.bodhilinux.com/ [bodhilinux.com]
http://wiki.bodhilinux.com/ [bodhilinux.com]
http://www.bodhilinux.com/gallerydotw.php [bodhilinux.com]
http://www.chrishaney.com/?linux&distro=bodhi [chrishaney.com]
http://sourceforge.net/projects/bodhilinux/files/ [sourceforge.net]

Re:See it to believe it (1)

rwa2 (4391) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833761)

Hmm, thanks for the review...

At some point a few years ago Raster was talking about putting in some neat interactive stuff in the window decorations, like CPU/mem/IO utilization meters per window process and stuff like that... has any of that come to fruition?

I had an awesome E16-based "enlightenome" desktop a while ago, but I really screwed up my .enlightenment profile after trying to build my own theme, and eventually started using compiz-fusion since it had enough configurability (and eye candy too I suppose) to set up some pretty interesting application kiosks for work.

Re:See it to believe it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41834737)

Still looks like an ugly toy.

KDE 3.x is still the most professional desktop Linux has ever had, with GNOME 2.x a decent second. Sadly though, SOME people saw fit to undermine that. Whether for their own misguidance, their own interests, or for money/backkicks from MS/Apple/Sun, I don't know. It's amazing how fast the Linux desktop fell apart though.

Wal-Mart gPC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831223)

Didn't the Wal-Mart gPC run Enlightenment with its gOS? I thought it did. I thought it was a plot by Microsoft to discredit Linux, by shipping something so utterly awful instead of Gnome 2 or KDE. I had Ubuntu, which was usable back then (!), running fine on the gPC, which only fueled my idea that it was some sort of underhanded way to destroy Linux's credibility.

OT: Independent desktops for each screen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831361)

I'm rather amazed that Awesome (http://awesome.naquadah.org/) is the only one with independent desktops for each screen. Doing development on it is, eh, awesome. It even integrates into KDE, though not maybe as perfect as I would have preferred but still, I rather live with some of the minor feature changes it does to KDE, than running KDE. Which is the only one I've ever liked for any amount of time. (Since mid -90's)

If it's not clear, this means I can switch desktop on any one monitor without changing any the desktop on any other monitor. This is vastly more useful than all changing in unison across the monitors. Maybe it's one of those "has to be experienced to be believed" type of things. As a developer after my first switch away from single monitor this is the next biggest improvement/flexibility I've had.

Sometimes I get fed up with all the extra "junk" that is included in any distro. Their urge to change even when it can't readily be improved shows up after hitting the top. Then changes often turn out to be pure sabotage. F.ex. Kmail/Nepomuk/Networkmanager poor implementations, where they got thrown in waay to early to be used safely. At least they should have given us the option. Or something like Zeitgeist which appears that it could easily become a privacy concern.

Re:OT: Independent desktops for each screen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41833357)

developers that use multiple monitors are fags.

developers that use IDEs are fags.

developers that use both, are abominations to creation.

Re:OT: Independent desktops for each screen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41835685)

So what's your excuse then, dicksucker?

Re:OT: Independent desktops for each screen (1)

shibashaba (683026) | about a year and a half ago | (#41834353)

e17 has been doing that for a long time, and yes, it is awesome too!

LOL (0)

Thud457 (234763) | about a year and a half ago | (#41831467)

from: [enlightenment.org]

New E17 Snapshot (76819) Sep 18, 2012 at 03:00 PM

I'm sure there are people out there saying "There's no way two E17 snapshots will ever come out on the same day." My response is as follows:

This time, in addition to featuring the usual improvements of LESS CRASHING and IMPROVEMENTS TO NOT CRASHING, I'm pleased to announce some other changes, though this is not in any way a comprehensive list, and not all the changes were made by me:

  • DND no longer causes random hangs in some situations
  • Crashes now occur much less often when running executables from E17 as seen since last night
  • Filemanager will no longer sometimes crash when changing directories as seen since yesterday
  • Filemanager tooltips now properly hide when leaving the source icon of the tooltip

LOL

Re:LOL (4, Insightful)

Superdarion (1286310) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833091)

LOL

What? I wish Microsoft was as forthcoming with their faults as these guys. At least you know they're trying to fix the crashes.

Re:LOL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41836527)

If enlightenment crash screen just blinks... .When E restarts, every application stays where it was.

Thrilled (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41831775)

I have been an e16 user for over 10 years.

The GTK/KDE crapfest, in-fighting, and politics, and stupid new default behavior of the month, can stick-it. They have nothing to offer that I need or want.

I just need X11 with a great virtual window manager. Not an ever-changing interpretation of how to be more like windows, or more like apple, or more like the current project lead's opinion.

WHOA /. 2004 (1)

ryzvonusef (1151717) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832057)

I was reading that old link, wow, bless their little hearts, discussing about Windows 98 and Office 2000...

And Slashdot was *still* bitching about whether this was *news* or not... :D

Wait for it... (1)

llZENll (545605) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832575)

O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
Yah ya goh
O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
O eh, o eh
Yah ya goh

At night when you turn off all the lights
There's no place that you can hide
Oh no, Rasterman is gonna get'cha

In bed, throw the covers on your head
You pretend like you are dead
But I know it
Rasterman is gonna gey'cha

Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get you

Rasterman is gonna get you tonight

No way, you can fight it every day
But no matter what you say
You know it
Rasterman is gonna get'cha

No clue, of what's happening to you
And before this night is through
Ooh baby
Rasterman is gonna get'cha

Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get you
Rasterman is gonna get you tonight

O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
O eh, o eh
Yah yeh goh
Yah yeh goh
Yah yeh goh

Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get you
Rasterman is gonna get you
Rasterman is gonna get'cha
Rasterman is gonna get'cha

Na na na na na na na na
Na na na na na na na
Rasterman is gonna get you
Na na na na na na na na
Na na na na na na na

O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
O eh, o eh, o eh, o eh
O eh, oo aah, o eh, oo aah
O eh, o eh
Na na na na na na na
Na na na na na na

Upping the ante (1)

kwiqsilver (585008) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832579)

So 2011 saw Duke Nukem Forever. 2012 sees E 17. Is there a bigger piece of vaporware out there for 2013?

Re:Upping the ante (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41838049)

Well, I hear MS have promised a HTML renderer for 2013.

E on Bodhi (2)

skaralic (676433) | about a year and a half ago | (#41832581)

I use Enlightenment on Bodhi Linux for my older machines and it performs wonderfully! It's fast and lean and, once it's all configured, very productive. The community forums are active and helpful, you'll even get a reply from Rasterman himself on occasion. Kudos for keeping this project alive for all those years, it keeps getting better!

Built on X? How about Wayland? (1)

gr8_phk (621180) | about a year and a half ago | (#41833489)

Will Enlightenment be moving to Wayland any time soon, or is it hopelessly intertwined with X?

Yep (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41833543)

Enlighenment will work with Wayland [enlightenment.org] and will be getting better in the future. Bummer they think they need to extend Wayland itself though.

Why I will never use E17. (0)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about a year and a half ago | (#41834723)

One day there was a problem with KDE[1] on my computer. Great! I thought, while repairing it I can try out enlightenment. So from the commandline I load E17 and start it up. I get this horrid black and white theme where I can't tell one window from another. I can't find help or run much of anything that way. Well I do manage a commandline IRC client so I go to the channel on freenode and ask for help. Not general help but help- changing the theme so I can get a version of E17 running where I can figure out how to do things. What happened. Well I was using Debian Testing ( LDME to be precise ), in fact I still use Debian testing, and all that happened was that I got grief over using a distro which used old software. BTW the problem with KDE was some corrupt files and I was worried that was because my hard drive had problems, so I needed a decent GUI quickly. At that point I figured that if that was the kind of help I could expect to get when I had a simple question in emergency circumstances, then I would be better off not using it. So I say to the developers you want to act like Microsoft, go write a CUi replacement for Windows 8 instead of linux. [1] What happened is that during a sudden loss of power, a sector on my HD got corrupted. This turned out to contain a part of the kde fontcache. One the file was deleted KDE regenerated the file and worked fine. Then I managed to repair the drive.

Re:Why I will never use E17. (1)

deek (22697) | about a year and a half ago | (#41838013)

That was quite the stream-of-consciousness post. Nice work. I think I even understood most of it.

By the way, to change your theme, download a new theme file, copy it to ~/.e/e/themes/, go to Settings->Theme and select it. Theme change is instant.

I'm running E17, on Debian Testing (proper). With a new theme. I'm happy with it.

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