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Linus Torvalds Tries KDE, Likes It So Far

timothy posted about 2 years ago | from the harry-seldon dept.

KDE 289

sfcrazy writes "Linus Torvalds has never been a big fan of Gnome owing [to] its extreme simplicity. Even Gnome 3.x failed to impress the father of the Linux kernel. He has now given KDE a try after a long time. Linus using your software is double edged sword, especially if Linus doesn't like it — get ready for the harshest, yet the most honest and useful criticism. Interestingly, Linus has so far liked KDE, and for one simple reason: 'But ah, the ability to configure things. And I have wobbly windows again.' This should make KDE developers a bit happier." Evidently, Linus didn't get the message that desktop UIs for Linux don't matter any more, since he keeps acting like they do.

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Grammer... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864251)

First sentence is fail...

Re:Grammer... (4, Funny)

Aaron B Lingwood (1288412) | about 2 years ago | (#41864271)

The...

First sentence is fail...

Re:Grammer... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864293)

Grammar:
The first sentence is a fail.

See me after class.

Re:Grammer... (2)

Aaron B Lingwood (1288412) | about 2 years ago | (#41864343)

My school forced me to buy the 2nd edition where 'fail' is a noun.

Re:Grammer... (3, Funny)

rubycodez (864176) | about 2 years ago | (#41864603)

I'm sorry for you, The Urban Dictionary is actually available free online.

Re:Grammer... (5, Funny)

oodaloop (1229816) | about 2 years ago | (#41864315)

Grammer than what?

Re:Grammer... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864777)

Everything! It's the grammest of all!

Re:Grammer... (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#41864821)

I wonder whether anyone else will actually get your joke?

Just who is Brian Proffitt? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864503)

Can anyone tell me who Brian Proffitt is, and why so much of his writing gets linked to from here? I mean, I know who Linus is. I know of the significant contributions he's made to open source software. It gives me a reason to respect what he's saying, even if I many not agree with it. But who is Brian Proffitt? What contribution has he made to open source software? What experience does he have that makes him an authority who should be listened to?

Re:Just who is Brian Proffitt? (4, Funny)

flapped (2444604) | about 2 years ago | (#41865005)

1. Brian
2. ?
3. Proffitt

Re:Just who is Brian Proffitt? (3, Informative)

inode_buddha (576844) | about 2 years ago | (#41865131)

He's the owner/editor of LinuxToday e-zine
http://www.linuxtoday.com/ [linuxtoday.com]

They've been around since about as long as slashdot.
.

Spelling... (2)

manicb (1633645) | about 2 years ago | (#41864519)

Comment the subject fail is.

Re:Spelling... (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#41864839)

On Sloshdat, bad grammar is something up with which, we have to put.

Yakuake (5, Informative)

CajunArson (465943) | about 2 years ago | (#41864279)

On the Google+ thread there are some recommendations for Yakuake [kde.org] , which Linus might find useful since I'm sure he does quite a bit of work from the terminal.

Re:Yakuake (1)

Tubal-Cain (1289912) | about 2 years ago | (#41864329)

Yakuake is great, though when I'm not using KDE I prefer Tilda.

Re:Yakuake (1)

Hatta (162192) | about 2 years ago | (#41864803)

I find it easier to just keep a virtual desktop with 4 consoles open, and just switch with a hotkey.

In other news (5, Funny)

Dyinobal (1427207) | about 2 years ago | (#41864297)

In other news Linus Torvalds tries crunchy peanut butter, and likes it so far.

Re:In other news (4, Funny)

Galactic Dominator (944134) | about 2 years ago | (#41864359)

He likes it! Hey Linus!

He speaks for millions of others. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864469)

You're missing the point. This is important because Linus is expressing an idea that millions of other Linux users are thinking. Unlike him, they don't have a large audience, so their thoughts mostly go unnoticed. But these thoughts nevertheless have a huge impact on the entire Open Source ecosystem.

More and more people are realizing that GNOME is on its way out. Alternate desktops, like KDE and XFCE, are clearly the sensible way to go these days. Unlike GNOME, they don't treat their users like rubbish. They provide an enjoyable experience, without stupid UI shenanigans. Linus has come to realize this, as have millions of other Linux users.

Re:He speaks for millions of others. (1)

interval1066 (668936) | about 2 years ago | (#41864787)

mfw he hasn't ever given KDE much as a sideways glance after all these years.

Re:He speaks for millions of others. (2)

wdef (1050680) | about 2 years ago | (#41865045)

mfw he hasn't ever given KDE much as a sideways glance after all these years.

Incorrect. IIRC he praised KDE over Gnome a few years ago and admitted he used KDE and disliked the direction Gnome was taking, pretty sure it was on /. I thought I must have been looking at an old post at first.

Re:He speaks for millions of others. (3, Informative)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#41864855)

What is this Gnome thing that everyone keeps complaining about?

Re:He speaks for millions of others. (1)

Seeteufel (1736784) | about 2 years ago | (#41864959)

But the problem is that Xpenguins [seul.org] , the most important application to convince your girl friend of Linux does not work with Kwin. So indeed, Linux on the Desktop is a completely lost cause unless these basic features remain unfixed by the KDE team. On the other hand XPenguins works fine with CDE.

I agree with Linus (5, Insightful)

jfdavis668 (1414919) | about 2 years ago | (#41864301)

All the desktop UI need to start focusing on what users need, not flashy features that aren't really useful.

Same here, and besides.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864365)

It's kind of tough to find things you don't like about KDE. A couple of years ago, when GNOME was around 2.3 and KDE4 had just come out, I was upset with pretty much every WM/DE I came across, eventually settled on Fluxbox. KDE4 these days is very well rounded. It's still a little bloaty, but what isn't, honestly.

It beats Xfce, Fluxbox, GNOME, Unity, Enlightenment.. etc.

Re:Same here, and besides.. (2)

menno_h (2670089) | about 2 years ago | (#41864569)

It's still a little bloaty, but what isn't, honestly.

Plain X or Xmonad.

Re:Same here, and besides.. (3, Informative)

interval1066 (668936) | about 2 years ago | (#41864837)

Xfce is a great desktop if you want simplicity and productivity.

Re:I agree with Linus (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#41864591)

All the desktop UI need to start focusing on what users need, not flashy features that aren't really useful.

I'm not one to disagree, but when did a a desktop have to be boring. My onboard graphics card has been delivering wobbly windows and spinning cubes since intel i815, and anything less simply.

Re:I agree with Linus (2)

Seeteufel (1736784) | about 2 years ago | (#41864971)

Users need ebay snipers. They need easy tools to download porn. They need xpenguins.

Re:I agree with Linus (2)

sunderland56 (621843) | about 2 years ago | (#41864881)

All the desktop UI need to start focusing on what users need, not flashy features that aren't really useful.

Wait... Linus' main point was that he liked his wobbly windows. How is that a need, and not just some stupid flashy feature?

To think that thousands of dedicated engineers worked for years on awesome high-performance graphics hardware, only to have it wasted on this.....

Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (1, Insightful)

Bananatree3 (872975) | about 2 years ago | (#41864333)

Come on Slashdot...this is NOT News For Nerds...it's news about one nerd's semi random postings. Leave the poor man alone to his own random thoughts...Please!

Re:Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864411)

This. I think it's the second time this week that Slashdot makes a story out of a Linus' rambling on G+. I'm sure there are people that's interested in what he has to say, but then they can always follow him on G+ like I do. This is definitely not newsworthy.

Re:Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (3, Insightful)

fat_mike (71855) | about 2 years ago | (#41864431)

Evidently, Linus didn't get the message that desktop UIs for Linux don't matter any more, since he keeps acting like they do.

How far and fast this site has fallen that they mock their creator

Re:Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864461)

People have been mocking CmdrTaco for years. You just noticed? Or did you think that Linus created this site? Or perhaps you meant something else but cannot construct a proper sentence telling us what you mean?

Re:Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (3, Funny)

rubycodez (864176) | about 2 years ago | (#41864619)

You are speaking of a pagan religion. Those of us with the True Faith have received our OpenBSD 5.2 CDs and T-Shirt in the mail, and give thanks to our Lord Theo, even though he's a total prick.

Bullshit. This is very important and relevant. (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864435)

People need to know just how fucking horrible GNOME 3 is. People also need to know that there are alternatives. KDE is a good once, as Linus is finding out.

I think the revolution happening within the open source desktop environment space is massive news, and very worthy of Slashdot. Within the past year, we've seen GNOME go from being the most widely-used open source desktop to being utterly disgraced. Users are flocking to KDE, Xfce and other environments very rapidly.

It's not often that we see such a significant open source project die such a tragic death, but that's exactly what's happening to GNOME. It has been completely crushed, not by the efforts of outside forces, but merely by its own internal idiocy.

There are other projects facing a similar fate. Firefox is the obvious one. They're making exactly the same kind of mistakes that the GNOME project made. At least they have time to learn from what happened to GNOME. At least the Firefox developers still have a chance to turn their ship around, and return to offering software that users actually want to use.

Re:Bullshit. This is very important and relevant. (4, Insightful)

Bananatree3 (872975) | about 2 years ago | (#41864487)

Gnome vs the World aside, Slashdot is giving Linus way more tabloid coverage than is newsworthy. Remember the "gasp! Bad words" article about Linus' G+ post? I feel like I'm reading about Kim Kardashian's favorite dildo brand.

Re:Bullshit. This is very important and relevant. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864661)

Hmm. I suppose Slashdot could create a page specially for you, with all the varieties of news you like to read. There we go! Slashdot can become like Google, and give targeted news for its logged in readers! It can be based on IP addresses too.

Re:Bullshit. This is very important and relevant. (1)

Hentes (2461350) | about 2 years ago | (#41864843)

It's not that hard, they only need to add an option to filter the news by tags.

Re:Bullshit. This is very important and relevant. (1)

interval1066 (668936) | about 2 years ago | (#41864863)

Woah, puritanical child! Avert thine eyes from the wicked Linus has spake, then.

Re:Our Dear Leader Is Happy Today (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864555)

Linux Thorvalds is a doughy little faggot.

Why not... (1)

Haxagon (2454432) | about 2 years ago | (#41864353)

...make submissions about RMS, then? Are we waiting for HURD to ride his every sentence?

KDE is keeping the configurability torch alive (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864387)

It seems like every other environment has decided that letting the user configure things how they want them to be is "too hard". Thus, they figure, it's better to remove every shred of choice. Because, you know, choice is hard and confusing.

KDE is one of the only environments left that doesn't treat its users like morons. It isn't a perfect piece of software, but it's one of the only remaining things that isn't after the "dumb everything down!!" mantra. The others: Windows, Gnome, Unity, OSX, IOS, Android, all seem to be chasing the other roads.

For that reason alone, I've found it worth giving them money, which you can do here: http://www.kde.org/community/donations/ - I've given them about euros 100 over the last year.

Disclaimer: I have no association with KDE except for being a user of their desktop environment.

Re:KDE is keeping the configurability torch alive (5, Interesting)

bmo (77928) | about 2 years ago | (#41864571)

KDE is one of the only environments left that doesn't treat its users like morons.

This can't be said enough. But not only that, there seems to be a fad in the other direction to be as user-hostile as possible in the name of extensibility. Dwm doesn't even have a config file, you are expected to edit the source and compile it, because a dwmrc would be "bloat." Another window manager requires you to learn haskell. GUI based configs like those found under WindowMaker are eschewed as "bloat." Well, damn, if I'm going to have to learn a whole new programming language just to change the background color, I may as well go back to twm and write a twmrc on clay tablets or write my window manager.

I don't get it. I don't understand the goals of the above. On one hand we have "the user is stupid, don't let him configure anything" and the other is "let the user configure anything, but make it artificially difficult."

KDE is a sane middle ground between the two paradigms.

--
BMO

Re:KDE is keeping the configurability torch alive (1)

realityimpaired (1668397) | about 2 years ago | (#41864901)

I don't get it. I don't understand the goals of the above. On one hand we have "the user is stupid, don't let him configure anything" and the other is "let the user configure anything, but make it artificially difficult."

Never used XFCE, or Enlightenment, have you? They both put KDE to shame, on the configurability side of things, yet both have a plethora of GUI tools to make said configuration easy.

Re:KDE is keeping the configurability torch alive (4, Interesting)

bmo (77928) | about 2 years ago | (#41865077)

>Never used XFCE

I have actually. I even used it back when it was a clone of CDE.

>or Enlightenment

Enlightenment is one of those things that you wished worked, but I installed it the other day via a PPA because of the Enlightenment article here, and I couldn't even get the Debian applications menu to show up. Nor could I quit normally, I had to go to a terminal and kill X. It was worse than it was 10 years ago, when I had it as a window manager with the waves plugin to "impress" passers-by.

> They both put KDE to shame\

No they don't. Neither has kioslaves and neither has dolphin or konqueror. Those two reasons alone are enough to use KDE.

--
BMO

Re:KDE is keeping the configurability torch alive (1)

riondluz (726831) | about 2 years ago | (#41864799)

i havent used/tried KDE in over a decade, mostly because all its apps are tied to kde base packages; which is/was hundreds of extra Mb more than should be needed. ldd 'k-app' usually only refs 6-9 kde libs, so why all the deps?

I really like kmail (for encryption) and use it on my workstation, the rest of the 'k' packages/apps just sit unused.

GNOME 3: the most disastrous OSS project ever. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864389)

I think we can all finally admit that GNOME 3 has become the most significant OSS project disaster to have ever occurred. It has been worse than the XFree86 licensing debacle. It is much worse than pre-EGCS GCC strife, or the Perl 6 inaction.

Never before have we seen an open source project drive away some of its most valuable users (including Linus) so quickly and so efficiently. It's like everything that possibly could have gone wrong with GNOME 3 did go excruciatingly wrong.

The user experience is absolutely terrible. GNOME Shell is universally hated. And even now, 1.5 years since GNOME 3 was first released, it isn't getting any better. In fact, it may be getting worse, as many developers and potential developers are now repulsed by it, and want nothing to do with it.

The rest of us who lead or are otherwise involved with OSS projects can learn a lot from the GNOME 3 disaster. They've made it very obvious what not to do. First of all, do not buy into hype. The hype around tablets, which are now obviously an outgoing fad, is the force behind many of the horrible UI decisions that were made. Second, don't be afraid to reject stupid UI ideas coming from failed "web designers". Third, at least have the courtesy of listening to what existing users are saying about your application or system. Fourth, don't shit down the throats of your existing users.

There absolutely no need for a GNOME 3-style debacle to take place. It can be easily avoided by just thinking a little bit, and acting sensibly. It worked well for KDE, XFCE, and the multitude of other open source desktop environment projects that are out there.

Re:GNOME 3: the most disastrous OSS project ever. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864533)

I think we can all finally admit that Unity has become the most significant OSS project disaster to have ever occurred.

FTFY.

Re:GNOME 3: the most disastrous OSS project ever. (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#41864637)

I think we can all finally admit that GNOME 3 has become the most significant OSS project disaster to have ever occurred.

Here is the thing Gnome 3 Apps are still great, and I'm currently I'm using cinnamon with which I'm sure you are aware is just Gnome 3 with a more sensible Desktop. They are looking to be making good and bad choices with nautilus too, renaming it files wasn't one of them.

Its Gnome Shell and nothing else.

xfce (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864397)

so far Xfce hits my sweet spot of the default behaves normally enough that I don't have to mess with it too much. it's very responsive too. the last 3 or 4 years was KDE->Gnome->KDE->Xfce

Linus's preferences are irrelevant. (0)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about 2 years ago | (#41864399)

Linus could manage the Linux kernel's git repository from a Windows box. Would it really matter? No: What matters is that he could.

Re:Linus's preferences are irrelevant. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864483)

It would absolutely matter. Look at what happened with FreeBSD over the past ten years; it went from being the backbone of the internet (Juniper, Yahoo, Hotmail, Netcraft all used it) to a has-been operating system that can't even properly suspend/hibernate and doesn't support video cards newer than 2007. What was the culprit? Apple bought out the development team, either through direct-hires, or by graciously dropping MacBook Pros their way. The result: a core OS development team that primarily interfaces with their end-product via Virtual Machine inside of OSX.

The end result is that nobody developing for FreeBSD actually uses FreeBSD anymore, at least, not for anything more than a hobby project. Thus we are on year six of suspend/resume not working in a multiprocessor environment. We are on year five of not being able to use a new video card (seriously, AMD and Intel are stuck on old versions that don't support KMS -- the only new video card you can use is nVidia and that's because they develop the binary blob themselves). The OS still doesn't support auto-mounting of USB devices, and relies on the deprecated HAL system for deskcop systems.

Back to this article, it is very important that Linus, as the head of the Linux development team continues to use his own product. Otherwise, the OS may as well be dead in the water. That KDE is able to rejuvenate his joy of using the OS on the desktop is huge, because it keeps the project moving forward. I remember two years ago, there was a problem with Flash player and Pulseaudio causing audio lag on Fedora. Linus himself, as an end-user, responded to the bug, and issued a patch within a day. I don't always agree him, but I absolutely respect that he puts his money where his mouth is.

Re:Linus's preferences are irrelevant. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864773)

Suspend/hibernate is such an important feature for the backbone. Juniper still uses it and now Netflix is starting to use it, you know 30% of the backbone traffic.

I love how you use FreeBSD's position of a great OS by pointing out how it is used in critical infrastructure, then use its desktop experience as a point to show how bad of an OS it is.

Why doesn't the OS support USB auto-mounting? Well, how many sysadmins even care about that? Maybe the target audience of FreeBSD is not you.

Re:Linus's preferences are irrelevant. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865095)

PC-BSD, just sayin'.

"desktop UIs for Linux don't matter any more" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864425)

I bet gnome would say that after slipping from 1st to 3rd or 4th. Not that i really keep track of their fails anymore.

Evidently, timothy falls for Brian Proffitt's bull (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864441)

The opinion piece (not to be confused with an article, let alone news), which makes such an entirely retarded non-argument (see bold part below), that it must be considered a fake/humor/Onion type thing, contains gems like:

Why decorate my Linux desktop, when I am the only one in my home office who can see it?

Yeah, because the whole point of decoration, is to go whoring with it. It could not perhaps be, that normal people prefer to look at pretty things, and still rather look at ugly things, than staring at boring all day. And It's completely unthinkable, that other people are not completely insecure attention whores, who feel the sick need to decorate themselves to go whoring to other people. </sarcasm>

If you go back to the turn of the century, a lot of the arguments against Linux on the desktop were along the lines of "where are the apps"?

Bullshit. Linux always was laden with applications. They just didn't have a colory-clicky interface for the retards like him. They were made for people who could actually use a computer. Not for idiots who should not be allowed to use one, or a car or any kind of machinery really.

But thanks to web services, I have also argued, that obstacle is diminishing every day.

Yeah "web services" riiiiight. Not there being a bazillion applications for Linux, now with idiot-usable GUIs too. With enough deliberate wilful ignorance, it’s the clunky inconvenient featureless and slow mess that is "web services". Even though they are still pretty much meaningless. (If you use e.g. Google Docs instead of LibreOffice, you're officially insane.)

Menus are strange.

So...much...bullshit...! No argument to back it up even. Just a vague virtually meaningless statement about the most important UI element there is. He probably can't even tell when he uses a menu that doesn't look like on Windows 95 and doesn’t sit under the window title. What an idiot.

And here’s the kicker (his "conclusion"/"argument")

Curiously, this might be the ticket forward for Linux. As interfaces get more bare-bones and "phone-like," they will start to deliver on the expectations of this generation of users: if they touch something once, the expected action will result. No menus, no windows to resize.

What the hell has any of that to do with Linux? Linux has nothing to do with touch. Nothing to do with bare-bones. And since when are there no menus or windows to resize?? Since NEVER!
Seriously... the above is really all he bases his claim on. That somehow in what can only be accounted to a grave hallucination, Linux has a extremely crippled and utterly retarded interface, and that that is exactly what people want.
Both of which being claims that couldn't be more detached from reality.

Seems that he doesn't even remotely comprehend Linux, and that the CLI, with text config files, scriptability and "everything is a file", is its strongest killer feature. (Despite Gnome and KDE actively trying to destroy the last one.)

Good job timothy. A grand piece of flying FUCK from you again. For supporting a obviously crazy person. What's next. You saying that "Evidently, X didn't get the message, that 'We're all going to die!'", because the crazy person from the street corner said that?

Configuring/tweaking (0, Flamebait)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 2 years ago | (#41864495)

Linus can probably get a pass on this, but every time I read an article about being able to "configure" your WM, I have to wonder what people _do_ with their computers... do you use it as a tool to launch a browser or two, open an editor, maybe write a document? or do you (seemingly) endlessly futz with window drag effects, scrollbar pixel width, which hotkey launches your audio player, etc? There's a point where it's just masturbating.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (5, Interesting)

CAPSLOCK2000 (27149) | about 2 years ago | (#41864529)

It is because many IT-types got into computers because they couldn't stop messing with the settings. Tweaking a computer to (personal) perfection is something many Slashdot-readers can relate to.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (2)

riondluz (726831) | about 2 years ago | (#41864679)

Or at least tweaking it to the point where it does what you want how you want it. Then it can go untouched forever.

As for gnome/kde:
apt-get install e17 ecomp
(oh look, wobbly windows:)
I mention above bec enlightenment_remote is/was the one best feature gnome/kde lacks.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (2)

timeOday (582209) | about 2 years ago | (#41864531)

I have felt the most desire to tweak when I was new to a system and wanted to make it like the old one. (I liked being able to middle-click to maximize the height but not the width!)

But in the end I agree, it's easier just to upgrade or switch seldomly, then give up a re-learn the habits.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (3, Insightful)

Arker (91948) | about 2 years ago | (#41864577)

If defaults were sane then it wouldnt be as important, but they NEVER are. I care very little about eye-candy (though it's nice to at least be able to change it to something that isnt distracting) but behaviour (focus models, keyboard shortcuts, virtual desktops and accessible controls for the things I often use) is very important.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864601)

If you don't care about configuration, I'm going to guess that you don't really use your computer for anything. Because if you do real work, configuring your environment and GUI for best efficiency on the tasks you are performing is critical.

It isn't about eye candy, it's about efficiency. Since you don't appear to see that, you are almost certainly not among the people who use their computers for real work.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865025)

I personnaly find the widget desktop in KDE extremely efficient. Multiple folder views, stats on various things. I do sitll use krell monitor for most of this though.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (1)

TechMouse (1096513) | about 2 years ago | (#41864651)

Masturbating is not a crime.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 2 years ago | (#41864905)

Funny that, but it is a crime in a large part of the world. [cough]Islam, Juda[/cough]

Re:Configuring/tweaking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864705)

You remember that large .vimrc or .bashrc you have collected over the years. I have them too, but I also have configured my KDE installation the way I like it. Same thing, convinience....

Re:Configuring/tweaking (5, Interesting)

jandar (304267) | about 2 years ago | (#41864707)

If you rent a ready-furnished flat, you don't move any piece of furniture? If I use a workbench for a longer time, I arrange the tools for my convenient use. Doing otherwise, accepting a choice of someone who knows nothing about me and my work, would be insane. All people are different so elevate "one size fits all" to a dogma like gnome is doing amounts to ignoring reality.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (2)

DarkOx (621550) | about 2 years ago | (#41864729)

I guess I would say in answer; this is the tool I use 6 to 8 hours a day. It really should work the way I want it to do so. I don't need to cycle between windows in general, I need to be able to cycle between two very specific applications; that does not mean I don't want my mail client open, just that I go to the dock when I want it for example.

Now yes If you are spending a great deal of time customizing around your applications that exist purely for entertainment in the first place fine, that might be masturbatory but in general for folks who out of necessity, love or not, spend a large amount of time in front of their computer making the environment both pleasing and efficient for the work flow thru tweaking can add real value. This is especially true if your time in-front of the machine is disproportionately spend on a few specific tasks.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (4, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | about 2 years ago | (#41864753)

Actually, it's more that developers can't stop futzing around with it. Unlike many things were you can run a benchmark, how people like to organize things is largely a matter of habit. For example I like the "Windows" style of single-click to select, double-click to open/launch. It drives me nuts if I have to work on a single-click to open/launch system because I keep doing lots of things I didn't mean to do. It's one of those "I don't care if DVORAK is in theory 1% better than QWERTY, give me what I'm used to" situations. It drives me crazy every time someone wants to reinvent the start menu or file dialog or whatever, the old one worked just fine. Maybe it's 50% old fart who won't try anything new, but it's also 50% don't break what works perfectly good enough.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (1)

Hatta (162192) | about 2 years ago | (#41864885)

It's about optimizing your workflow. Make the applications you actually use accessible through the hotkeys that make sense to you. Use the focus model that you have to think about the least. Force file dialogs to "detailed" as one dimensional lists are quicker to look through than 2d tables.

Try building a desktop yourself sometime. Start with a bare bones window manager and try doing some work. Every time you think you need a feature, add it yourself in the most convenient possible way for you. The time you spend doing this pays off as before long you'll have an interface that does everything you want to do, and you know everything that it does.

Re:Configuring/tweaking (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | about 2 years ago | (#41864979)

I have. I started with TMW. It gave you a means to launch a shell, and a shutdown option. Leave a little shell window open, and dump a few commands like "xterm &" and "firefox &" and you're done.

Why do you need transparent and wobbly windows again?

Re:Configuring/tweaking (1)

oneandoneis2 (777721) | about 2 years ago | (#41865055)

The reason configurability matters so much isn't that we want to change a million pointless bits of eyecandy.

It's because there are certain features we want that not everyone else does.

Simple example: When I Alt-Tab to a different window, I *require* my mouse pointer to be moved to that window as well. This is a feature whose absence drives me *nuts* - It's literally a deal-breaker for me not to have this feature available.

Other people hate their mouse being moved by a keyboard shortcut. I can understand that, whilst not agreeing with it. So the only way a WM can keep us both happy is to make this a configurable option.

When I use a dual-screen setup, I *hate* the Alt-Tab list showing me the options for both screens - I only want to be able to switch between the windows in that one particular screen. Other people want to be able to switch to any window in either screen. Still others want to be able to switch to any window on any desktop.

That's quite a range of desired behaviour just for something as simple as the alt-tab function. Not having it set to the way they like is a big problem for people who spend eight hours a day trying to Get Stuff Done. Thus the only way to make a WM that everyone can use is to make it very configurable. Not so people can get endless special effects and fiddle with window decorations; but to get the behaviour you want and expect.

I use FVWM personally, and I once worked out that the functionality I had built in to my hotkeys and preferences was worth an hour of productivity a day, just in the time saved on mundane, repetitive tasks. Configurability matters. It matters a lot.

Dear Reader (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864501)

Don't judge the snarky posters, It has been rough for Gnome fans lately. Their hatred for the other teams is the only thing that keeps them going these days. Not too long ago the world was their oyster. Now they bitterly face a bleak world where they may have to concede a point or two.

What people say... (0)

JavaBear (9872) | about 2 years ago | (#41864539)

Is not always correct.

"People" keep saying Google+ is a ghost town.
"People" keep saying Linus is doomed on the UI.
"People" kept saying Linux was too hard to use and would never make it outside the server room

Common for all is that they were mostly wrong.

Re:What people say... (5, Funny)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | about 2 years ago | (#41864745)

Is not always correct.

"People" keep saying Google+ is a ghost town.
"People" keep saying Linus is doomed on the UI.
"People" kept saying Linux was too hard to use and would never make it outside the server room

Common for all is that they were mostly wrong.

I think you made a very common confusion. People say Linux is doomed on the UI, and that Linus is too hard to use and would never make it outside the server room.

Desktop UI's are fail? What a joke! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864547)

You sir have never used a computer for serious work then! If desktop UI's are non-issue it is only because of how good they have become on getting out of the way, not because they are not-required.

KDE looks like ass (3, Insightful)

realmolo (574068) | about 2 years ago | (#41864623)

I like the functionality of KDE, and I like the configurability, but it looks terrible. Nothing quite "fits". All the buttons look like they aren't placed/sized *quite* correctly, and the button labels look like they are just a *little* off-center.

Basically, all of the window decorations/elements aren't sized right. Still. That is apparently the "KDE look", but I can't stand it. And yes, I've tried to tweak it to my liking, but it's impossible.

By contrast, Gnome and Unity are very well put together. They look nice and clean.

Re:KDE looks like ass (4, Interesting)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#41864697)

While the appearance of the desktop is indeed important, I actually don't get the same feeling from KDE. Can you put a link to some screenshot which shows the problem(s)?

Re:KDE looks like ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864965)

I don't like the standard look of KDE either, but take a look at how KDE looks on Mepis; sleek, tidy and a joy to work with. Having been around the block with freebsd, ubuntu, mint, mandrake, and most major WMs, it is by far my favourite desktop ready *nix distro. Everything gets out of the way so I can get shit done.

Re:KDE looks like ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865295)

I don't know if it's KDE or Kubuntu who picks the way things look by default in Kubuntu, but it does look like ass.
Why the hell do they have to go with a look that's halfway between Windows3.1 and Windows95? There are dozens of better looking desktop themes, color schemes, icon sets, window decorations and widget styles to choose from.

I've said it plenty of times here... apk (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864677)

I truly LIKE KDE! Why? Well... it's NOT that "radically different" than say, the Win9x style shell I've used on Windows for decades (and before that, OS/2's "Workplace Shell").

* Primarily a Windows user here since 1991 is why... "old habits"? Die HARD!

APK

P.S.=> Mr. T. obviously demonstrates "good taste", & "great minds think alike" (lol, preparing asbestos suit for the "flames" I'll get on THAT little last tidbit, I am sure)...

... apk

"looks a bit too cartoony"...."annoys the hell"... (4, Insightful)

rubycodez (864176) | about 2 years ago | (#41864687)

more accurate to say he liked the ability to configure every little thing, but has many gripes too about overall look & feel and defaults

I'd say his post overall is why many people still go to things like xfce4, mate, cinnamon, LXDE, etc.

Re:"looks a bit too cartoony"...."annoys the hell" (1)

pointbeing (701902) | about 2 years ago | (#41864769)

more accurate to say he liked the ability to configure every little thing, but has many gripes too about overall look & feel and defaults

I'd say his post overall is why many people still go to things like xfce4, mate, cinnamon, LXDE, etc.

IIRC Linus switched *from* XFCE.

Re:"looks a bit too cartoony"...."annoys the hell" (4, Informative)

rubycodez (864176) | about 2 years ago | (#41865069)

switched? No, he is USING xfce. he posts "I'm trying out KDE after a long absense." that's called "giving it a whirl".

Me too (2)

scharkalvin (72228) | about 2 years ago | (#41864715)

I agree with Linus, I'm back to KDE after the Gnome2 to Gnome3 transisiton. While the default KDE settings may not be optimal, some distros (such as Mint) have chosen more sane defaults for THEIR implementation of KDE. I'd suggest that Linus try Mint 13 KDE, but since he probably knows how to tweak things to his liking he can use any distro he likes. I've also tried Kubuntu, but Mint is closer to my desired configuration out of the box.

Quality Assurance (2)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#41864743)

Mmh. I agree, KDE is quite nice and customizable. XFCE is nice too, Unity is, etc. However the longstanding problem which seems not to go away, is the lack of general quality assurance. All of the DEs are full of little bugs here and there. Some button does nothing, some feature is not implemented, occasional crashes, settings that do not have an effect, little glitches, etc. Things like that. Maybe it requires a big company like Microsoft or Apple to get it right, but maybe also the OSS community could be arranged so that things like these could be improved. I think it's really important.

kde menu a mess (1)

Vince6791 (2639183) | about 2 years ago | (#41864791)

But I like metroui, unity, and gnome 3(to some degree) which all three are about fast access to files and applications. The problem with windows 7 and kde start menu is that you waste your time navigating trying to find what you are looking for. Even in windows 7 i never used the menu i just pinned some apps on my taskbar and the rest on my rocketdock. in kde(dual monitor), i would just create a third taskbar with applications pinned on it and the bar placed at the top hidden. With windows 8 I could do the same, pin programs to taskbar or just re-arrange the metroui tiles the way I want for fast access. Hit windows key, fast scroll, find the icon and click. Unity is basically a windows taskbar or dock put on the side. But, the old gnome2 was actually a lot easier to navigate through than win7 and kde.

The kde menu system is a freaking confusing mess and it takes time to know where things are placed. But, it's pretty to look at same with windows 7. I think it's time for the old start button menu to die off already.

Re:kde menu a mess (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865081)

Thats the thing about KDE. Years ago you could remove the start button if you want to: it is COMPLETELY configurable through menus and settings.

Harshest, yet most honest, useful... (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about 2 years ago | (#41864841)

Linus using your software is double edged sword, especially if Linus doesn't like it — get ready for the harshest, yet the most honest and useful criticism.

Smooch Linus' ass much 'sfcrazy' ?

Point? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864853)

Is there a point to this article. Isn't the point of Linux is that you can configure it how you wish. Aren't you supposed to choose or make a distribution you like? I thought that was the "Gift" and "Curse" of open source. Like it or lump it. .02

Maybe he should try Git (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864859)

I wonder what Linus thinks of a buggy nigtmare like Git? Oh. Wait. He wrote it.

Can somebody care to explain? (2)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about 2 years ago | (#41864867)

WTF is "wobbly windows" supposed to be? Useless eye-candy with no purpose?

Re:Can somebody care to explain? (0)

flimflammer (956759) | about 2 years ago | (#41865029)

Get back in the terminal and stay there.

Not productivity, just cool looking... apk (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865049)

When you drag windows around the desktop in KDE? IIRC, it's NOT by "default" but, there's an option to make them "wobble"...

It's pretty cool actually!

I first ran into it while I was in Europe 2010 on KUbuntu 10.04 on a laptop (I told myself I would run Linux just to see how FAR it's progressed since I last tried it, which was in 1998-1999 iirc, RedHat 6.x & before THAT? In 1994, using Slackware 1.02 - it's gotten WORLDS better!)

So - Is it for "productivity purposes"?? No, by no means - It's just "neat" looking!

* Even though I am PRIMARILY "the poster-child for 'Windows-fanboy'" on this forums, I had to admit I like KDE (have said it MANY times here in fact over the years) -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3228683&cid=41864677

APK

P.S.=> You'd have to try it I suppose to see what it does...

... apk

Re:Can somebody care to explain? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865363)

Useless eye-candy with no purpose?

But, if it serves it's function as eye candy, that is it's purpose and it is indeed not useless...

In other news (1)

MrEricSir (398214) | about 2 years ago | (#41864975)

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

KDE developers, just don't screw it up! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41864993)

Dear KDE developers, please learn the lesson from Unity and Gnome 3 (and Windows 8). You will win, and win big, if you don't screw up. Keep your desktop environment the same and let people use it to get their work done. Don't change paradigms or get user interface designers involved. Just provide what you're already providing without radical changes. People are migrating off of these broken, unusable environments en masse.

Wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865321)

The summary is pretty wrong. From what I recall reading a year or so ago, Linus used to love Gnome 2. He switched to XFCE after Gnome 3 because it had a lot more of what he liked about Gnome 2 than Gnome 3 itself had. I remember this because I felt largely the same way, and am still using XFCE.

Linus Torvalds tries... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41865351)

We should start giving OSS names like "Buttplug", "Golden Shower".
Next time a headline like this shows up, it will be priceless.

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