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Foxconn Sees New Source of Cheap Labor: The United States

samzenpus posted about a year and a half ago | from the times-they-are-a-changing dept.

China 430

hackingbear writes "Foxconn is planning to build manufacturing plants in the U.S., probably in cites such as Detroit and Los Angeles. 'Since the manufacturing of Apple's products is rather complicated, the market watchers expect the rumored plants to focus on LCD TV production, which can be highly automated and easier.' Foxconn chairman Terry Guo, at a recent public event, noted that the company is planning a training program for US-based engineers, bringing them to Taiwan or China to learn the processes of product design and manufacturing."

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430 comments

This is good for the US (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928097)

Americans may have invented a lot of the manufacturing processes used for consumer electronics, but China and other Far Eastern countries have a big edge on us now. Let's put our egos aside and learn what we can from the Chinese.

Re:This is good for the US (-1, Flamebait)

Roachie (2180772) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928201)

Irony is hard to detect over the interwebs.

So I'm going to play it on the safe side and say: "Fuck the Chinese AND the Far East."

Re:This is good for the US (2)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928253)

Irony is hard to detect over the interwebs.

So I'm going to play it on the safe side and say: "Fuck the Chinese AND the Far East."

Interwebs are indeed tricky, I was sure this was a thread about assisted suicide. Please also note that America IS China's Far East.

Re:This is good for the US (1)

MightyYar (622222) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928273)

Oh, so you've been taking nationalism lessons from them! You are doing well, but still have a ways to go.

Re:This is good for the US (0)

oztiks (921504) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928683)

Nice to think they will be hiring herebut still a fascinating insult to U.S. manufacturing prowess, dontcha think – the idea that actually making Apple products is a little too complicated for Americans to handle

I don't agree with that statement, it has nothing to do with insulting the US, rather it's all about product control.

If you look at the way the game is played it's simple. America bombs Arabs to control oil production. America can't bomb Asia, truth of the matter is America would love to have production things like iPhones. The manufacturing countries/companies out of Asia though love to splash horrible working conditions and pin buying an iPhone worse then buying blood diamonds though what it boils down to is that "they are in charge".

Moving manufacturing back to the US has to be done by the vendors themselves, the process would take the better part of 10 years to get right in the meantime. That sweltering bank account Apple has, might be used for that, though it wont buy the time back Apple will lose to catch back up in the market to do so, You're basically telling your investors that you cant produce a worthy product till 2017+

poor choices for locations (4, Interesting)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928105)

They would do better to build their factories in flyover country, where cots of living are lower, average wage is lower, cost of utilities is lower, and all that jazz.

The central US is well connected for large freight shipments by rail.

Re:poor choices for locations (4, Insightful)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928163)

Yes but detroit is a shit hole of desperation and low wages

poor choices for enforcement. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928241)

But...but...you have Robocop!

Re:poor choices for enforcement. (1)

aliquis (678370) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928587)

And that shoe seller we all know and love :)

And Peggy doing the shopping!

Re:poor choices for locations (2, Informative)

DirePickle (796986) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928377)

It doesn't go New York, Detroit, LA. There are a ton of other cities out in flyover land, many of which have solid manufacturing histories and currently healthy economies.

Re:poor choices for locations (4, Interesting)

mlts (1038732) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928461)

Detroit has one thing that a lot of states are in desperate need of:

Water.

A lot of factories need fresh water, so locating near the Great Lakes does make sense. Anywhere else in the US risks water shortages.

Re:poor choices for locations (5, Insightful)

JWSmythe (446288) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928469)

    Actually, they could set up in *any* metro area in the US. Pay minimum wage. Make all the employees part time, so they don't have to pay benefits. 2 20hr/wk employees are cheaper than 1 40hr/wk or salary employee. They can maintain a barely OSHA compliant workplace, and items that are too expensive, they can just absorb the cost of fines. Their customers have financial and political leverage, so I'm sure lots could be ignored, especially if they're going to take a few thousand people off of the unemployment rolls, even though they'll make less working.

    Pretty much, they'll act just like Walmart. A whole bunch of employees who fall below the poverty line.

Re:poor choices for locations (5, Insightful)

WarSpiteX (98591) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928513)

I'm afraid you're exactly right.

When you start globalizing and opening yourself up to competition with countries that have no labour or environmental laws to speak of, you by default undercut your own industries to the point where they are not competitive.

Free trade with developing countries is a horrendously bad idea for this reason. Tarriffs can be a mitigating factor - to a point, of course.

Re:poor choices for locations (4, Insightful)

jd2112 (1535857) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928689)

Yes but detroit is a shit hole of desperation and low wages

Foxconn will fit in perfectly there.

Re:poor choices for locations (4, Informative)

Bacon Bits (926911) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928193)

Detroit is centrally located, has very low wages and costs of living (compared to Los Angeles) and, thanks to the auto industry, has a very well developed distribution network via rail and the St. Lawrence Seaway. It also has a strong manufacturing history.

Re:poor choices for locations (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928567)

It also is heavily unionized and being in a union is a way of life for some areas.

Re:poor choices for locations (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928639)

It also is heavily unionized and being in a union is a way of life for some areas.

So your neightbors' houses burned down and your brother and aunt got stabbed last year, huh? And you still want to form a union? Ok, if you wish. We'll just move to Juarez then. Be well!

Re:poor choices for locations (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928331)

But think of it! Maybe this is how we finally get RoboCop!

Oh, wait...

Re:poor choices for locations (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928335)

Choosing to build any plant in areas that are highly unionized is simply a crazily dumb mistake. Sure, they may get a year or two of cheap labor but it won't be long before the unions move in and they are paying $50/hr for unskilled labor.

Flyover country is best. Utah is an incredible place to do business. Low taxes, low cost of living, little government interference. The same holds for Texas. A friend has a manufacturing operation in Las Vegas NV. He needed to build a new production facility. He figured it would cost $2,500,000 and would take about 70 inspectors. Instead, he opened up his production operation in Texas. It cost him $200,000 and he dealt with zero inspectors.

Re:poor choices for locations (1)

haruchai (17472) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928355)

Louisiana is flyover country? I think you meant to say "and all that bluegrass" or "all that country music".

Re:poor choices for locations (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928619)

Might want to check that Jazz history haruchai. N.O. Jazz is a distinct style.

So it's come to this. . . (5, Insightful)

mosb1000 (710161) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928107)

Chinese companies are more willing to be self sufficient and train workers than American companies, who are constantly whining that the government should do it. And theyre from a communist country where the government is much more powerfull. Good job, assholes.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (5, Interesting)

MightyYar (622222) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928325)

I don't think you have any experience at all in the Chinese labor market. It is very difficult to retain labor. If an employee finds a job in another factory for an extra 25 cents a day, they just don't show up again. Turnover is terrible, even in highly skilled positions such as engineering. People don't wait around to be promoted - instead, they hop from job to job, earning small title and salary increases each time.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (4, Funny)

Qzukk (229616) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928399)

People don't wait around to be promoted - instead, they hop from job to job, earning small title and salary increases each time.

Man, where have I seen that before?

Re:So it's come to this. . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928429)

Why would they wait around to be promoted in a job position that almost guarantees that they will NEVER be promoted? No one goes from working on the assembly line putting parts on a widget to plant manager (or higher) through "employee loyalty".

Re:So it's come to this. . . (4, Interesting)

Gwala (309968) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928437)

Yes and no - the less skilled the job, the harder you have to deal with employee turnover.

For engineers though, providing you are running things well, you'll usually only have a big burst of turnover around the national holiday in March, when everyone gets paid a 13th salary as a bonus. The rest of the year though, everyone just waits until March so they don't lose their bonus. Turnover seems to be getting better too however - we only lost 2 from a team of 20 this past March (compared to 4-5 the previous year, and 5-7 the year before.)

Re:So it's come to this. . . (4, Funny)

AK Marc (707885) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928633)

Wait, so the problem is that the Chinese workers treat their companies the way US companies treat their employees?

Re:So it's come to this. . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928339)

Chinese companies are more willing to be self sufficient and train workers than American companies, who are constantly whining that the government should do it. And theyre from a communist country where the government is much more powerfull.

China is a communist country too, and the government there is somewhat powerful as well.

Oh, wait...

Re:So it's come to this. . . (4, Interesting)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928393)

And theyre from a communist country where the government is much more powerful.

This may very well be why they are trying to establish a base in the United States. The Chinese political situation is far from stable now, so things could go very bad very quickly, and they could lose their entire operations. Having a backup in the US is a good idea.

Note also that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, not Chinese, which makes them a convenient target for takeover if the Chinese government decides it needs a distraction. 'We've always been at war with Eastasia," China has always been at war with Taiwan.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928483)

The Chinese political situation is far from stable now

Yes, their entire central government is about to change this year, just like it did ten years ago, and just as has been planned for the last ten years. In your other posts today you appeared to be awake and lucid. What happened?
Anyway, the simple reality is a Chinese company expanding overseas just like they've been doing in Africa and everywhere else over at least the last decade. You guys just haven't noticed.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928537)

Eh? China is arguably the most stable country out there when it comes to internal security, just because it is swift and brutal.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (3, Insightful)

HornWumpus (783565) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928625)

History fail.

Re:So it's come to this. . . (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928711)

Being swift and brutal is pretty much a guaranteed way to cause revolts though (if history were to be believed atleast).

Re:So it's come to this. . . (4, Insightful)

zill (1690130) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928707)

And theyre from a communist country

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Get rid of the unions (0, Troll)

hessian (467078) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928117)

Unions are parasites that ruined American labor.

When your workforce is so unstable that you might be crushed at any moment by a strike, you hide behind layers of bureaucracy. The system turns to chaos.

Organized crime moves in with unions too.

Check out these unions in action:

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/busting-philly-unions-pestronk-brothers/ [phillymag.com]

With mincing steps, the non-union contractorâ"a middle-aged man in a blue short-sleeved shirtâ"tries to sneak in behind them, sidling through a narrow gap between a temporary chain-link fence and a stone wall. But the union men spot him, move toward the fence, and start to lean against it. Then we see four of them take turns pushingâ"using the fence like a microscope slide to fix the contractor against the wall. In one of the videos, you can hear the man start to cry out, his voice tremulous as heâ(TM)s crushed. Finally, he slumps to the ground.

The most troubling part, though, isnâ(TM)t the sight of the men trapping the contractor; itâ(TM)s the brief glimpse of one of the protesters grinning as the contractor wails. And the way the union guys stroll casually away from the scene when their victim collapses.

âoeItâ(TM)s standard for construction sites to have surveillance cameras,â says one of the two 30-something brothers responsible for capturing the incident on video, Michael Pestronk. âoeThe only novel thing we did, which just seemed obvious to me, was to post the videos on the Internet.â

These are the people who killed American manufacturing.

Foxconn will be doing great, and paying probably good wages, until the union parasites appear.

Then they'll move the factory again.

After all, that's why the American companies moved in the first place.

Re:Get rid of the unions (4, Insightful)

Fishead (658061) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928137)

Gimme a break. Unions are the only thing that defends the middle class from the rich shareholders that demand ever increasing dividends.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928249)

>Unions are the only thing that defends the middle class from the rich shareholders that demand ever increasing dividends.

The rich shareholders of the union (union leaders) or the rich shareholders of the company?

Re:Get rid of the unions (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928621)

Though union leaders screw over the members occasionally, it's no where near as bad as what corporate executives do. In fact, unlike corporations, unions have government watchdogs. Union leaders are fiduciaries for their members, so both the members and the government regularly investigate and sue malfeasance. Corporate executives are principally fiduciaries for the corporation, and it's difficult for either the government or shareholders to ensure accountability.

The notion that unions are corrupt, their members slothful knuckle-draggers, is political spin by the GOP and the business community which has unfortunately become common wisdom. Of course there was egregious corruption (and still is, but nothing like 50 years ago). But it wasn't just the unions, sadly. Union corruption is just more memorable. We can identify with stealing cigarettes from a truck, or scotch off a boat. Most people find it hard to wrap their heads around sophisticated corporate embezzlement schemes.

Re:Get rid of the unions (1)

geoffrobinson (109879) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928449)

Right, like pension funds.

Re:Get rid of the unions (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928515)

Yes. The rich shareholders such as the pension funds.

Re:Get rid of the unions (5, Insightful)

Jackie_Chan_Fan (730745) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928139)

You're right, unions ruined everything, including child labor and slavery. Oh the good old days, when you could lock your workers in a factory, and watch them burn to death. (Actually happened)

Re:Get rid of the unions (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928195)

For anyone that hasn't heard of this incident [wikipedia.org] before...

Re:Get rid of the unions (3, Insightful)

Kaenneth (82978) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928265)

The right to join and form a union is important; but I reject the idea of 'Union Shops', where you are required (if not literally, at least practically) to join, and pay.

It's like flag burning and gun ownership; I have no interest in them now, but if you try take away my right to do so, I will just to protest.

Re:Get rid of the unions (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928691)

Huh? You can't be for unions, but against union shops. If unions didn't have enforceable contracts with companies to only employ union members, then companies simply would never employ union members.

You have to understand the function of unions: to stabilize low-skilled, low-barrier-to-entry labor markets. There's no way to accomplish that stabilization without excluding some part of the labor market. They work by placing restrictions on the labor supply.

It my seem inefficient when you listen to anecdotes, but its often more efficient writ large. You need employment and wage stability in order for people to be able to save and plan ahead. It makes them more productive. You then reroute some of that additional gain to folks who got screwed, in the form of welfare.

That's the economic theory. Feel free to dispute the underlying premises, or debate the efficacy of the scheme. But its undoubtedly sound policy given the right circumstances.

Re:Get rid of the unions (3, Informative)

Mr. Shotgun (832121) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928417)

Citation for the parent post: Triangle Shirtwaist Company [wikipedia.org]

Re:Get rid of the unions (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928641)

Why go that far back? Here's proof you still need unions today. [wikipedia.org]

Re:Get rid of the unions (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928507)

You're right, unions ruined everything, including child labor and slavery. Oh the good old days, when you could lock your workers in a factory, and watch them burn to death. (Actually happened)

Unions were not originally organized for worker safety. Looks like someone slept through high school history class.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928671)

They actually were. Indeed, looks like someone did sleep though their high school history class.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928717)

You're right, unions ruined everything, including child labor and slavery. Oh the good old days, when you could lock your workers in a factory, and watch them burn to death. (Actually happened)

This isn't the 1950s. The medieval Islamic world gave us a lot of inventions too, but I wouldn't say that they are a model of global capitalism today.

Re:Get rid of the unions (4, Insightful)

godrik (1287354) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928153)

Not sure how it works in the US. But in Europe a typical valid answer is "if management did not treat the workers like shit, they would not be unionized."

Partly (3, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928451)

In Holland the Big 11 (largest employers) have actually said they want the strong unions of the past decades back because although they didn't always agree, at least they could negotiate and sort things out. The big companies want "The polder model" back and preferably without the 3rd party, the government, messing things up again.

It is outside north-west Europe (England excepted) that unions seem to have such a terrible relationship, it is an English/Italian thing, to snobby to admit you are just a wage slave at the mercy of your boss and to corrupt to handle money and power. You can't compare a NW European union with an American one but then the relations between workers and bosses are totally different, Romney would not have gotten 50 of the votes in Europe, he would have been seen as the total asshole he is and be spitted out by anyone who works for a living.

You might have noted that in America, many of the working class, call themselves middle class. Here is a hint: If you live paycheck to paycheck and getting fired is going to be an economic disaster, you are working class. Lower class your economy is already a disaster even with a paycheck. Middle class is financially comfortable. And that doesn't mean you can just avoid your credit cards from being canceled each month but that if something major happens, it isn't an immediate issue, loose job, take a year to find a new one. Upper class means you are comfortable for life even if something major happens.

Quick test for Americans: Did it surprise you to find out that YOU are part of the 47% Romney considers to be a leech? Did you even dare to find out if you are in that group?

That's just revolutionary jive (1, Insightful)

hessian (467078) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928457)

But in Europe a typical valid answer is "if management did not treat the workers like shit, they would not be unionized."

Europe's a mess. I'm sorry for not kissing your ass like a guilty American, but I've been there recently and over the last 20 years a lot has changed. Not for the better. Good luck to you all.

Back to the topic. There are valid answers and then there are truthful ones.

The truth in this is complex:

1. Some employers treated their workers like shit, especially when the workers were from ethnic groups who came into the country in such huge numbers they reduced their average value to near nothing (Irish, Mexicans).
2. Many employers treated their workers like shit because the workers, like 90% of humanity, were disorganized, lazy, slovenly, etc. and did a bad job.
3. Most employers treated their workers well for the same reason most employers do today, which is that happy people paid at market rate and overseen by decent people will in turn produce the best labor.

And then there's every total union, like the Soviet republic, where the workers were so not treated like shit that the economy fell apart.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928175)

You need to brush up on some history. Things that you take for granted, like having toilets at work, are all thanks to unions. The alternative, not having unions, will result in a much worse average work day for you and I than any amount of bureaucracy can create.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928521)

Yeah, it's a damn shame, we used to get our sheets dyed yellow for free just by not letting the cotton mill workers have toilets.

Re:Get rid of the unions (1)

The Grim Reefer (1162755) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928549)

You need to brush up on some history. Things that you take for granted, like having toilets at work, are all thanks to unions. The alternative, not having unions, will result in a much worse average work day for you and I than any amount of bureaucracy can create.

You need to brush up on some history. Things that you take for granted, like having toilets at work, are all thanks to unions. The alternative, not having unions, will result in a much worse average work day for you and I than any amount of bureaucracy can create.

Yes, but that is history. Like so many other things, they may have outlived their usefulness. Unions were a godsend for workers at their beginnings, but that time is now past and there are many laws that take place of what the unions once accomplished. Yes we can thank what the unions accomplished for those laws, but that doesn't mean they are still needed. I don't know if they are a good or bad thing in modern times. Most union positions have great retirement packages. Unfortunately often times they are not sustainable and many union retirees end up losing it either shortly before retiring or even after retiring. Just look at the air lines. How many lost their retirements in the last five years in that industry alone? I can't imagine how awful that would be.

I'm still not sure what to think about corporate unions, but public sector unions should be outlawed as far as I'm concerned.

Re:Get rid of the unions (1)

jamstar7 (694492) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928617)

Laws can change. What makes you think they're permenant?

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928579)

Hollow argument. Unions had their uses to drive these changes. Ok, the changes are there. Now unions are seen as driving the cost of labor beyond what the market can bear (note the recent restructuring of the american auto industry and dramatic drop off of onshore manufacturing), engaging in shady practices (requiring non-union workers to submit dues), and of course the ties to organized crime.

If we get back to those awful dickensian times, I'm sure unions will become relevant again. In the meantime, they're about as relevant as buggy whips.

Re:Get rid of the unions (1)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928183)

Unions are parasites that ruined American labor.

When your workforce is so unstable that you might be crushed at any moment by a strike, you hide behind layers of bureaucracy. The system turns to chaos.

Yeah, those Chinese are smug right now but wait until they face their first strike with unionized workers asking for hardwood chopsticks and extra lead in their toothpaste.

Re:Get rid of the unions (2)

wiggles (30088) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928239)

Union strike? In China?

We've all seen what happens when Chinese people rise up against the establishment [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Get rid of the unions (2)

dbIII (701233) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928545)

Oddly enough, bad as it was, that's the sign of a turning point and things were a hell of a lot worse before that. One example is the famous bit of film of the guy that doesn't get run over by a tank because the driver keeps turning to avoid him. An example from before many readers here were born is a bit of a Godwin even if there's a bunch of us that heard about it at the time. Mao is long dead and things have been steadily improving in China since even if there is a long way to go before the reach the level of human rights we are used to in democratic countries.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

rubycodez (864176) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928189)

what is a communist government like China's, but a giant labor union?

Re:Get rid of the unions (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928227)

who the fuck upvoted this dogshit

Re:Get rid of the unions (2)

MrEricSir (398214) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928313)

Why stop there? Sure, you can make a lot more money without paying your employees well, but why pay them at all?

Slavery greatly increases labor efficiency. Instead of providing a salary that your workers will inevitably waste on unnecessary items like iPhones and designer shirts, you simply provide your workers with the necessities directly.

If you want to blame someone for killing American manufacturing, blame Lincoln.

Re:Get rid of the unions (4, Insightful)

HornWumpus (783565) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928481)

Slaves make incredibly shitty workers. They only work hard enough to not get whipped. And you have to pay someone to stand behind them with a whip all day. The hard collar for draft animals basically ended slavery's economic viability. The rest was just social inertia.

That is one of those inconvenient truths that some people don't want to hear. Free people, with lives and expenses, have a far greater labor efficiency then slaves.

Re:Get rid of the unions (5, Insightful)

Zeussy (868062) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928373)

Oh yes, it's all the unions. Even though Germany has unions [forbes.com] , pay's it auto works more, and their car industry is profitable, makes more cars, with large amounts of exports.

Unions done wrong fuck the system up. Builds adversarial us (the workers) vs them (the management) mentalities. Unions done right, can and does work very well. It is collaborative, where everyone works together to make the company better, struggle through the bad times etc. This collaboration works both ways, if the company is hitting hard times, the board, management should be taking paycuts themselves, stopping bonuses. They have failed to lead the company into a properous position. Before they have the cheek to ask the workers to cut their salaries, they should be severely cutting their own pay first. Put their hands up in the air, and claim "Yes, we fucked up", so how can we get through this? The CEO has taken a paycut of 80% sacrificing $25 million saving about 300 jobs, can you guys cut 15% until we get through this?

Both Germany and Japan after the second world war had written into their constitutions by Eisenhower, MacArthur and their aides various protections and rights for workers to bargain and act collectively. They both have become some of the biggest players in the automotive industry, and this is not by coinicendence, it is by design.

Re:Get rid of the unions (3, Informative)

AK Marc (707885) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928655)

Unions are parasites that ruined American labor.

They were a necessary evil to combat the exploitive corporations killing workers for profit (usually through negligence, but occassionally through murder). The corporations started it, then complained when the playing field was leveled. If the companies didn't fight so hard against worker rights, the unions wouldn't have gotten to where they are.

Re:Get rid of the unions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928693)

Okay where's "For a free Internet" gone to rip into this guy ROFL.

Big mistake (-1, Troll)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928123)

Things are going really wrong since Obama got reelected. Also now he can't blame the previous administration anymore!

Re:Big mistake (1, Funny)

foniksonik (573572) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928181)

Ha ha hahahahahahaha... Sorry not laughing with you. Oh and your ignorance is showing, might want to put that away before you scare someone.

Re:Big mistake (0)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928233)

If this is über-sarcasm, kudos. Otherwise I think Fouad could teach you a few things.

Re:Big mistake (0)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928263)

I think he's saying that in fact Obama can, and likely will, still blame Bush for things. After all, people are still blaming Reagan and Eisenhower for the problems we have today.

So if you think Obama can no longer blame the previous administration, you are in fact ignorant.

Re:Big mistake (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928427)

Pretty much. No different than how 3 years after Bush cancelled Clinton's CRA rules 3 years after Clinton left office, Clinton's CRA rules caused the banks to implode. Because of course the banks (and other unregulated companies making up 50% of the subprime market) only lent money out because the government was there holding a gun to their head forcing them to make billions of dollars.

I'm sure Obama's supporters will start coming up with similarly ridiculously twisted mind-boggling excuses.

Re:Big mistake (0, Offtopic)

lucm (889690) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928445)

It was a well-known fact that Democrats are sore losers, now we discover they are also sore winners. Plus they don't got a sense of humor.

Re:Big mistake (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928293)

You're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, Sparky.

Gotta post AC (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928125)

Detroit (Flint as well) is on the list, L.A. is maybe for managing offices, but the largest plant is going to be in the south. Most likely northern Alabama or possibly Louisiana. How do I know? I work in one of the State Governors office and there has been Foxconn AND Pegatron groups in and out since at least, roughly, Christmas 2011

Re:Gotta post AC (3, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928431)

the largest plant is going to be in the south. Most likely northern Alabama or possibly Louisiana. How do I know? I work in one of the State Governors office and there has been Foxconn AND Pegatron groups in and out since at least, roughly, Christmas 2011

How ironic (and fitting) that a land where people who still to this day wish for the good old days of slavery and cotton farms to return will soon be working in the modern equivalent of the cotton farm.

Re:Gotta post AC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928557)

Is there any cheap prison labour near by?

That is the modern work around for slavery, in fact with government subsidies and public investment it is not only cheap but profitable for all the "middle men"

Re:Gotta post AC (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928599)

But think of the internship programs!

PR Coup (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928147)

Well, this is definitely one way to get some favorable opinions in the United States.

labor costs vs cost of pissing off your customers (2)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928191)

Everyone seems to overlook this factor when talking about stuff like this! Last time I custom ordered a laptop from Toshiba Direct, they decided to build it and ship it out of Shanghai, China without really warning me. It took 11 days to build and about 4 more to ship and my customer was PISSED! I was twice as pissed! That long of a delay is unacceptable! If I want something from anywhere in the US, I can get it in 1 day. Remember the Nintendo Wii shortage? Yeah, with a 3 week delay in build and ship time, you're going to lose millions and make all your customers mad. Oversease production and shipping is NOT fast enough for today's businesses and they will not order from another country at any price if they can avoid it. That's the real reason things need to be made here.

Re:labor costs vs cost of pissing off your custome (1)

Alex Belits (437) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928257)

That's why you are supposed to order from Lenovo -- then it will be a better laptop, shipped from Shanghai faster.

Re:labor costs vs cost of pissing off your custome (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928401)

STFU, you nekulturny piece of shit. If you'd been born in the US, we'd call you white trash.

Re:labor costs vs cost of pissing off your custome (1)

Alex Belits (437) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928577)

I agree, it's great that I was not born in US, got excellent education, and became an engineer.
Just imagine what all random Internet trolls would become if they didn't live in a country ruled by greedy sociopaths, with culture rooted in religious extremism and slavery.

Re:labor costs vs cost of pissing off your custome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928651)

I'm not sure how relevant the Wii example is, as there is quite a difference between custom orders that can't be made until ordered, and a standardized unit that can be shipped continuously. The former is more an issue of latency, and the latter is about actual production speed.

Learn design in Asia? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928197)

I was really confused until I realized there has been a mistranslation. Replace the word 'design' with the word 'copying', and then the summary makes much more sense.

Re:Learn design in Asia? (1, Informative)

aliquis (678370) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928647)

Joke all you want but I bet today you'd be happy if the Japanese copied American cars rather than designing their own?

And regarding the Lenovo vs Toshiba post above yours remember where each country is from.

And while their new stealth jet may be copying of an American design and they got their high speed train designs by building parts and later copying them now they build their own. And got fast trains.

They own what was once our Volvo cars. Huawei is about the same size as Ericsson. They do high voltage designs, construction equipment and so on.

They are of course not inferior to any other people. They are many and they are up and raising.

Soon you'll wish they was copying your designs rather than build better products.

Re:Learn design in Asia? (1)

aliquis (678370) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928665)

Oh, and ignorancy is a bliss.

I suppose. Or a huge mistake?

Why not? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928243)

The US is basically a third world shithole with a first class military. That's about what we've come to anymore.
 
The ballot boxes aren't even cold and Obamy is already killing people with drones again and trying to stir up shit with the Iranians.
 
That's a Nobel fucking Peace Prize winner for you.

Shipping costs are rising that much? (3, Insightful)

sgt scrub (869860) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928245)

I guess high priced oil is working in our favor for once. Considering the majority of their market is here, they might even be realizing consumers with money buy stuff. Who'da thunk.

Re:Shipping costs are rising that much? (1)

aliquis (678370) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928563)

I thought the Chinese was the people with the money. Whereas you was mostly buying on debt?

Nice troll piece (3, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928299)

First off, it is Apple, an American company who outsourced all its production to China. It is Americans who think iPhone production is to complex for Americans.

Second, building a highly automated plant is NEVER about labor costs. It is about avoiding import duties. Assemble it in the US and it is a US product exempt from import duties and hence cheaper. If Americans were normal people it would also generate some good will, creating jobs in a down economy, that is of course terrible! How dare they insult you? This from the same Forbes that cheers all outsourcing. Damn those Chinese, how dare they outsource back to you! Next thing you know people will actually be having jobs and not leeching from the state!

You will note if you follow the articles, that it is Market Watchers (people who didn't see the crash coming) who talk about iPhone production being to complex. It ain't even for sure yet what will be produced or if the factory will come at all but hey, market watchers already know why it will be producing X and not Y. Even if they don't know what X is.

As for training... gosh... maybe they will train the Americans in English so they can choose between city or sites and not make up new words. Oh wait I forgot, training on the job. BAD. People should have all the required skills from the start or you will bitch you can't find any workers locally and have to import them or outsource.

Re:Nice troll piece (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928443)

1. highly automated plant = few new jobs and more competition for local companies who will then automate their plants..
2. last thing I want is to be taught in engrish how to snap two pieces of plastic together without leaving prints.

The real question is this: do we want to live like the chinese do? if so, roll out the carpet like we're doing and let them come in and rebuild our society in their image with the force of economics. If not, for fucks sake get them out of here!

Re:Nice troll piece (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928635)

Slight amendment. Apple subcontracted to Foxconn who outsourced the work to their China factories. I seriously doubt any company would care where their devices were produced as long as they are delivered on time.

I guess you wanted this. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928305)

I mean, sure, you'll have factories exploiting your cheap labor and destroying your livelihoods... but at least you don't have to worry about any of those evil unions.

On site dorms likely will be a no go in the USA (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928363)

On site dorms likely will be a no go in the USA or they will not be able to force people to live in them or change you so you pay drops under the min wage.

Exploitation, unions, and you. (5, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928369)

You jabber on about how unions are bad, how they destroyed this country, but you couldn't be more mistaken. The reason we became a world superpower was because of unions, not in spite of them. When the industrial revolution first made land fall, people left the farms to move into urban factories. There was no health care, no OSHA, no retirement or social security, no educational system, and no child labor laws. Workers would get chewed up by machines and that was that. No lawsuits, no nothing -- your livelihood was destroyed. Quite possibly, you later died of starvation. All of the problems that are present in China today were there at the start of our industrial revolution as well: Corruption, environmental contamination, worker abuse, long hours, low pay, and massive wealth inequity.

Then the unions came, and with it; OSHA, social security, public education, child labor laws, overtime compensation. And you know what happened then? Civilization didn't collapse. In fact, it prospered: The roaring 50s. A single man could now drive a car and live in a house he paid for, in full, and support a wive and two kids, working only 40 hours a week. It was the first generation to grow up with public education, and that literacy reflected in every area of american living; Anyone could invent something new and sell it. America became the land of opportunity. Immigrants flocked to the stars and striped by the millions. The middle class grew, and upward mobility was something just about anyone could achieve. For the first time in modern history, hard work nearly guaranteed a comfortable living. And work hard we did. When Europe was devestated by the world wars, it was american industry and ingenuity that pulled their ass out of the fire, and I'm not talking about the unparalleled capacity to produce ships, tanks, guns, and planes either. We didn't just build our own country -- we rebuilt a dozen others as well in post-war reconstruction. And after all that, you know what we did then? We went to the fucking moon.

Even Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations pointed out that one of the essential duties of government is to provide for the safety and well-being of its citizens. In other words, the work force. America's investment in its labor force resulted in economic gains far in excess of anything even the largest mega-corporations of today can match. And then it all went wrong.

It started with the Boomers. Having been given everything by their parents, they didn't understand the price paid by their predecessors. They assumed that this temporary equilibrium, this golden age, was a permanent feature of America. They felt entitled to it, instead of thankful. And when they seized power in the 70s and 80s, they cut social security, education, defunded OSHA, deregulated... and for a time, it was good. But in the shadows consumer debt piled up. The cost of an education skyrocketed, and illiteracy creeped back in. Our scientific and technological progress peaked, then rapidly deflated as the careers of scientist, engineer, inventor, were removed from public prestige and replaced with ridicule and scorn.

Today, our media holds illiterate opinions as equal to the most established of scientific truths. Our children are unable to afford an education, and we're witnessing the lowest graduation rates from all levels of education that anyone alive can remember. Our economy is in ruins, the middle class is rapidly evaporating, and the few wealthy compete amongst each other to auction off our civil infrastructure and institutions. The bridges and roadways our grandparents built with pride that enabled our economy to prosper grow increasingly deficient, falling into rivers or eating tires and vehicles. Our railway and roadway networks are so badly mangled that the idea of bringing back blimps has been floated a few times as a way of getting goods around. Our air space is managed by state of the art technology... or it was, in 1965.

No, unions made us a super power. And we're going to lose that status because we took what they gave us for granted.

Re:Exploitation, unions, and you. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#41928551)

>Then the unions came, and with it; OSHA, social security, public education, child labor laws, overtime compensation.

Wait a second, you are telling me without unions we would have no public education? Are you retarded?

>We went to the fucking moon.

Now I know you've lost it. We went to the moon because of unions?

>Anyone could invent something new and sell it.

And he was unionized, I suppose? Just that single person inventing things and selling them, a unionized island to himself.

>social security

The unions had nothing to do with that. Union employes always had PENSIONS (well, you would like to think) that keep them from needing social security.

>scientist, engineer, inventor

Most of these people have never had a union, except for certain engineers (and no, I'm talking professional engineer, sanitation engineers have a union, but they ain't real engineers, are they?) and scientists working for a university (and only sometimes then).

You must be high or retarded. Perhaps both?

Re:Exploitation, unions, and you. (4, Insightful)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928697)

Way to totally ignore any negative experience regarding unions...at all. They're the reason our jobs left. I know a fellow here in China from Carolina doing furniture manufacturing. His company told the unions that the price had to come down, they were getting killed by competition from overseas. Union wouldn't budge one inch. Guess what happened? Closed down the factory and moved it lock, stock, and barrel to China. Surprise! Reality.

Let's also totally ignore the union thugs who came out to bust Cesar Chavez and his workers. Let's ignore the unions that refused help after the hurricane because keeping their own power was more important. Let's ignore the fact that in some states, you can't even work without being forced to join a union. Let's ignore all the union bosses in prison [google.com] (I didn't even bother to cite specific links as Google is continually populated with new stories on the topic). Let's ignore the racism and sexism of the white male union rank-and-file.

I can't help but notice all the union achievements you list are 50 years old. Once upon a time, there were genuine problems that unions solved. That time has passed.

Now I have to... (1)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928473)

buy my Galaxy Note 10.1 before it doubles in price due to American workers. Well I was just waiting till Christmas to see if I could get my sister to get me one.

Opposite day! (4, Funny)

zill (1690130) | about a year and a half ago | (#41928677)

"Fucking Americans, stealing ours jobs everyday. My buddy was forced to train his American replacement. It's only a matter of time before my job is shipped overseas as well." -Random Chinese guy
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