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Review: World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria (video)

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the yes-actual-panda-men dept.

Role Playing (Games) 204

In this video (with transcript) we review the newest expansion to World of Warcraft, titled Mists of Pandaria. This is the fourth expansion to Blizzard's successful MMORPG, and while the quality of the content remains high, it's becoming increasingly apparent that they're basing it on a game that's been under development for over a decade. On top of that, the MMORPG genre itself is evolving, and though World of Warcraft remains a juggernaut of the industry, juggernauts are tougher to steer, and less adaptable to players' changing demands. The question for the success of an MMORPG expansion isn't simply "does it entertain?" It is: "does it entertain, and for how long?" Mists of Pandaria succeeds on the first count — it refreshes the gameplay, dangles new carrots in front of the players, and brings much-needed improvements to older systems. But keeping players engaged for a long time will be much more difficult. Hit the link below to watch/read our review.

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Mists of Dailyquestia (5, Interesting)

RogueyWon (735973) | about 2 years ago | (#41968169)

The review touches upon the issue of the ridiculous number of daily quests required. I've been playing MoP myself and I can confirm that Blizzard have got something very, very badly wrong here. The daily quests are too numerous, too essential and far too boring. With a small number of exceptions, they all tend to be variations on the old "kill six snow moose" themes. Except this time it's panda-mooses. And you usually have to kill more than six of them.

It's worse still if you play as a tank or healer. DPS players can at least blitz through individual enemies quite quickly. As a tank or healer, the health pools for enemies take so long to chip down that the daily quest grind can actually take hours. Plus the daily quests are tied into the valor point system, so unless you are a hardcore raider, you're more or less tied into continuing with daily quest grinds even after you max out your reputation. JOY!

In all honesty, I can't see myself sticking with this much longer. I returned to the game in the late Cataclysm era, having quit in the late Lich King era, thinking I'd stick with it on a casual basis. MoP has just turned that into a chore.

It's hilarious to watch the official "blue" forum posters try to defend the daily quest overload. They can't claim that it's fun or enjoyable. They can't claim that it's interesting. All they can do is keep coming up with new ways of saying "yes, it's a boring timesink, but we're not changing it".

I suspect Blizzard are desperate for ways of getting WoW development costs down so they can focus on other things. Their end-game content model is horribly inefficient and expensive. They create new raid and dungeon content, go through an exhaustive and exhausting testing and balancing process, release it, then have it rendered obsolete by the next tier, 4-6 months later.

I suspect the best thing Blizzard could do in the longer term, if they really do want to concentrate on other projects (including a WoW successor) without cutting off their income stream from WoW subs, would be to get to more of a steady-state end-game. Stop raising the level cap (leave it at 100, perhaps, as that's a nice round number) and move from the current "vertical" end-game into more of a "horizontal" model, like the one used by Final Fantasy XI and some other older MMOs.

They could re-tune all of the old raid content up to level 100 standards (which requires some work, but less than creating entirely new assets) and add multiple progression paths. They'd then be able to get away with adding new raid content far less frequently, while giving the player-base something to do that isn't an endless, tedious grind of soloed daily quests.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

alen (225700) | about 2 years ago | (#41968315)

blizzard sold out to activision

they need to make their money back by keeping you playing and paying every month

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

subanark (937286) | about 2 years ago | (#41969331)

Blizzard did not sell out to Activision. Their parent company used a large chunk of their stock in the company to get Activision while retaining controlling stock. Yes, Activision's president runs the new "company," but in reality they aren't involved in Blizzard's games aside from physical distribution in Europe. Activision knows that Blizzard is a company that knows how to make good games, and they aren't going to kill the goose that lays that egg.

As to your second statement, yes, Blizzard is a company, they will keep doing what they can to get players to keep paying their monthly dues as long as it doesn't hurt their reputation, this hasn't changed since the merger. Sometimes they will decide to hold off on short term money making opportunities in order to help the long term health of the game. As an example, up until a few months ago you could pay $2.00 a month to be able to use the in game auction house from your web browse or smart phone and talk online to your guild mates from your smart phone. For some unknown reason Blizzard cut this service and gave these benefits to everyone.

Blizzard also (about a year ago) made a controversial move to make one of their pets you can buy with real money tradable to other players (although with the trading card mounts they already had). The reasoning to this was as much as they would like to keep real money separate from the game (in that everyone who pays their $15 a month fee is on equal footing), there was too much fraud in game with people making unofficial transactions. Placing some of these more common transactions in a in-game secure system would help reduce fraud even though it encourages players to use real money to get benefits. Diablo 3 developers decided to make virtually everything sellable on the real money auction house as an experiment to see how it affects pride in the game, "I earned all this cool stuff," vs being unhappy that "other people took the easy way out and just bought all their stuff".

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1, Troll)

TheMiddleRoad (1153113) | about 2 years ago | (#41970361)

People still play this shit? As if life weren't filled with enough drudgery.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968473)

Dailies are not required, they are optional.

Doing them all everyday will make you get burned out of them, much like if you had the option to grind heroics to get Rep. Stop forcing yourself to eat the whole thing at once or you will get a belly ache.

Do dailies in a group. Three of us only do them together. Its done in less than an hour for Lotus, Shado, August.

The gear progression is what makes old content obselete. Plus who wants to do the same thing beyond 4-6 months.

They tried Horizontal progression with AQ. I do not believe the majority enjoyed it as much (I did).

Old raids were modeled and programmed off the old engine. It still will take a lot of work to reuse them.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968787)

Dailies are not required, they are optional.

Wrong. You've been indoctrinated.

If Dailies are optional, please explain what someone that doesn't do them is supposed to do with the VP they collect from heroics, raids, and LFR.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Stickerboy (61554) | about 2 years ago | (#41969241)

Dailies are not required, they are optional.

Wrong. You've been indoctrinated.

If Dailies are optional, please explain what someone that doesn't do them is supposed to do with the VP they collect from heroics, raids, and LFR.

Seriously? Valor Points buy epic raiding gear. That is why the dailies are optional - you can still get your valor points just fine through heroic dungeon runs, LFR or tagging along raids. You can get Valor Points much faster by doing the dailies along with the above-mentioned activities.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969347)

The problem is that you cant even spend your vp without being revered (and each slot is attached to a different rep, so you have to do them all) which takes at least a few weeks to do

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Stickerboy (61554) | about 2 years ago | (#41969373)

Sorry, missed the point of your question. Let me clarify; eventually Valor Point vendors will sell epic raiding gear that don't require Reputation levels once the next tier is reached. It's been that way with every expansion pack, all the way since Burning Crusade.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

compro01 (777531) | about 2 years ago | (#41969839)

Valor Points buy epic raiding gear.

And you need faction reputation (which requires dalies) to buy that epic gear.

For example, my mage's valor point belt and pants require revered rep with the Klaxxi.

They've taken and fused together faction quartermaster gear and valor point gear. In Cata, you could collect rep and get epics (granted, first-wave epics, which were completely outclassed by gear from the halls of time heroic dungeons) from faction quartermasters or collect valor and buy from the valor vendor. Now you need to collect rep and valor to buy the gear.

It's one thing I'm rather unimpressed with this expansion.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

theangrypeon (1306525) | about 2 years ago | (#41970187)

Right, I think it's wrong to say dailies are optional.

But, it should be noted that maxing out on every single conceivable daily every day is definitely optional. You definitely can reach the valor cap quite easily without doing dailies at all, and with the valor cap still being 1000 pts/week, It takes 2-3 weeks to usually to get enough valor for 1 item.

If you did your leveling in the Dread Wastes, you should be close to revered with the Klaxxi already (I think it took maybe 3-4 days of dailies to hit revered). I'll give you that the Golden Lotus grind is ass, but you don't have to do it every single day in order to make sure you're weekly valor gains aren't "wasted".

I still think it's a bad system, regardless, but it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about 2 years ago | (#41970133)

> The gear progression is what makes old content obsolete. Plus who wants to do the same thing beyond 4-6 months.

That is true, however, you're talking to someone who has ~2000 hours of L4D playtime in. We don't do it for the gear (there is none!) -- we do it because the core game play is _fun_ with friends. If the old content is obsolete you need to ask WHY? Why aren't the old dungeons dynamically scalable? I'm not saying this is a trivial problem, or that only Blizzard doesn't get it -- the flaw is with the design decision of MMOs in general. Why would I waste time "grinding" for gear, when every expansion pack all your gear is immediately obsolete?

The fact that you have to queue up for dungeons and pvp tells me the developers don't respect my time, and are not interested in learning how to.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968523)

"I suspect the best thing Blizz could do in the longer term [is do what every failed rival mmo has done instead of what they are doing]."

Not really sure on this one, but I think your train of thought is still boarding at the station.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

RogueyWon (735973) | about 2 years ago | (#41968595)

It's a myth that every MMO besides WoW has failed. There have been successful ones before and since. Not on the scale of WoW, perhaps, but then they've generally not had the resources put into them that WoW has either.

Before WoW launched, 500,000 subscribers was considered a massive success and very profitable. Many people have been able to get by on similar figures since.

If Blizzard want to move people off WoW content and onto other projects, they need to work out something that gives players something to do without driving too many away. Daily quests overload isn't the answer.

If you really believed what you were saying, you wouldn't be posting AC.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

runeghost (2509522) | about 2 years ago | (#41969681)

EVE Online is generally viewed as quite successful commercially and critically. Despite having "only" 400,000 players, it's still going strong almost a decade after launch.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Silent Node (54344) | about 2 years ago | (#41969981)

Yea, I left WoW for Eve and never looked back. I haven't run a mission in over a year, and get to play however I want to. My gear never goes out of date, and is almost entirely player made. It's a better game in many respects, it just doesn't hold your hand like WoW.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (4, Insightful)

Hoi Polloi (522990) | about 2 years ago | (#41969015)

Part of WoW's continuing business at this point is sheer momentum. People who have invested years of play in it who are unwilling to let it go.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969531)

So their business plan is to hope their customers don't figure out the sunk-cost fallacy?

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Ben4jammin (1233084) | about 2 years ago | (#41970229)

A safe bet when viewed through the prism of the Either/Or fallacy that is (in the US) our 2 party system of government. In fact, I would posit that you could combine the 2 fallacies and have a comprehesive explanation of why in the US we continue to shout about Ds and Rs while a small group of people continue to control all the money, to their benefit and at the expense of everyone else.

This would indictate, statistically speaking, that there are a large group of people that won't figure out either fallacy. So while not the best business plan, it is certainly not the worst either.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41970369)

At this point it's a family activity. I loved raiding for years and I'm kinda getting burnt out as is my wife, but we're still playing just not as much as we use to. If we wanted we'd already be raiding the new content with our guild. Our kids started playing and it's funner to play with them and see them get excited about content that's old to us, but new to them. The first time my son and daughter saw the play in Karazhan they thought it was the coolest thing ever then they saw the chess match. That's the big reason I still have so many accounts. If it weren't for our kids Blizzard would have probably lost us.


Posting AC, because I have mod points.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968535)

perhaps they should go look at what SOE is doing with Everquest, we are on our 18th expansion now, sure we have lost people, there are Tons of ways to play, and we don't regularly do quests. We group and now we have mercenaries we can buy and use to heal or tank for us so no more healers can solo or tanks cant solo. And best of yet.. It is now FREE TO PLAY!. yea free to level 90, there are like tiers of monthly pricing, checkout for details..

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968547)

you have to ask yourself': are you a masochist or not? If not, move on. If you are, enjoy the pain.

I have said it before but MMO's need to kill playe (5, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about 2 years ago | (#41968555)

I have said it before but MMO's need to kill players. Well, their characters at least. D&D always had the issue that at max level, you were a god. And god isn't fun to play. Superman has this issue, he is unstoppable, so you have to keep coming up with their weirdest stuff to make him at least temporarily vulnerable.

In MMO's, the level cap keeps being raised, more content is tacked onto the end and the players despair of having to grind yet another set of gear, yet another factions reputation while all the fun has gone from the game.

D&D solved this, you are NOT supposed to keep the same character around for ages. Hell, most games fixed this. In the Sims, your characters age and die, in Sim City and Transport Tycoon and Civilization, you start a new game when you "won" the old one. Only in MMO's do you keep the same character and play with it long after you "finished" the game.

So, get rid of it. Create a game with a tutorial area, a mid level and an endgame that kills you. Then you restart the game, skip the tutorial and try a different path.

Expansions flesh out the middle, where everyone is playing. New players find a busy active world and not everyone huddled at the end game claiming they are bored.

It is a simple tried and tested mechanic but MMO's have become filled with people who want to wave their e-penis around no matter how much they hate the process of getting one, they want to show of their raid gear. Because putting in a hundred hours grinding makes them leet.

WoW is for those gamers, the rest have long since left. Not that most other MMO's dare to offer anything different. First Lotro introduced gated content, now GW2 is doing the same.

And all over, gamers are playing regular games with no grind, just for fun. Are MMO developers so insecure they feel they can't rely on the fun of their games rather then gated content and raid gear?

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (1)

Deltaspectre (796409) | about 2 years ago | (#41968603)

I don't think this is too much of a problem for WoW, since you can always start up an alt that's a different class/faction. (And of course hours and hours of grinding on one of your max level characters)

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968627)

In the Sims, your characters age and die, in Sim City and Transport Tycoon and Civilization, you start a new game when you "won" the old one.

Wow. You actually pulled Transport Tycoon as one of the archetypes of that sort of endgame? I'm actually impressed anyone remembers that (and didn't go straight for referencing it as OpenTTD instead). Well-played, sir.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (2)

N0Man74 (1620447) | about 2 years ago | (#41968735)

D&D had resurrections too. If you lost your D&D character because of a dumb reason, a DM has the power to hand wave them back. In D&D a DM can say, "Ok, you can start your new character at level 10". In D&D, sometimes people pull out their old characters, or DMs will have them make cameos in a new campaign.

In an MMRPG, people don't like to lose a character that they've invested hundreds (or thousands) of hours in because someone turned on a microwave and caused them to temporarily disconnect from their Wi-Fi. In an MMRPG, people don't like losing their character because another player is griefing using a hack, or by exploiting game mechanics. In an MMRPG, people are more likely to stop subscribing if their characters reach mandatory retirement, rather than continue chasing the ever-moving carrot.

MMRPGs are not primarily designed to make people happy, or to make people have fun. They are primarily designed to keep people playing.

Not talking about perma death (2)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about 2 years ago | (#41968865)

I mean END OF LIFE dead, reach lvl 50, go on end game epic quest, die/retire/ride into the sunset.

In D&D you did have resurrects BUT once you reach a silly high level you were supposed to roll a new character, not keep playing a lvl 20/40 character over and over.

So not dead because you fell of a bridge but dead because your hero's journey has com to an end.

And yes, I agree, MMO's are about grinds but if you keep begging for the grind, don't be suprised that is what you are going to get.

Be ready to let go of your lvl 80 blinged out alt if you want MMO's to change and become FUN again.

Also it most closely emulates a SP game (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | about 2 years ago | (#41969161)

In a single player game, you usually save your game quite often, or it does it for you (or both). So if you fuck up, you are back at the checkpoint, not back at the beginning. This is how most popular MMOs work. If you fail to kill a boss and wipe out, the boss resets. You cannot move on through repeated failures, but nor do you move back.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968763)

That sounds awful, also being god IS fun.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (4, Insightful)

RogueyWon (735973) | about 2 years ago | (#41968845)

Saying that WoWlike MMOs need to have permadeath is like saying that fighting games should incorporate city-building elements. It's a gameplay mechanic that simply doesn't fit with the genre.

Contrary to the general cynicism displayed in these parts, WoWlike MMOs do have a fairly solid gameplay core that is much more than just "keep people playing the subs". Leaving player-vs-player aside for now, they are, at heart, large-group co-op games (and often very difficult ones).

At the heart of a WoWlike is raiding. And at the heart of raiding is fighting against bosses. Leaving aside casual-oriented "raid-finder" modes, raid bosses are generally tuned so that, at the level of gear players will have when they are first encountered, they are challenging fights with little room for error. The satisfaction in the game comes from overcoming that challenge and working with others to defeat the bosses. The level of co-operation required goes far beyond that found in most other genres. I have no shortage of criticisms of WoW, but I can attest from personal experience that the "rush" associated with my first kill of certain bosses (Illidan, Kil'Jaeden, the Lich King) was like nothing else in gaming - and that was irrespective of whether I got any gear from it.

But with the difficulty tuned as high as it is, death is inevitable and very much part of the game. You learn from your deaths and adapt accordingly. Imagine Dark Souls with permadeath? A WoWlike with permadeath would be like that... but worse.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969041)

> MMO's have become filled with people who want to wave their e-penis around...
> ... WoW is for those gamers, the rest have long since left.

Yep. The guys who sit in the cities blocking the main paths atop their "epic mounts" while calling everyone else a "scrub" in Trade Chat are pretty much all that is left.

WoW has gone on for far too long. Guys who have been playing "since Vanilla, you fucking scrub" ruin the game for all newcomers. It's time to wipe the slate.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (1)

thereitis (2355426) | about 2 years ago | (#41969145)

And all over, gamers are playing regular games with no grind, just for fun.

Yep. I spend most of my gaming time on Minecraft these days. I'm tired of the same old WoW gameplay mechanics, even more than the grinding. The low level players never want or need any help because it's too easy. I don't want to spend a lot of time learning each boss's tricks and having to run back countless times.

Still, I love the lore and I love the world and music and characters Blizzard has created. Give me a game with these elements with the customizability, open-endedness and player creativity of Minecraft and I'll be waving money at you. Give me something different - the mechanics of WoW have had their day in the sun.

Re:I have said it before but MMO's need to kill pl (1)

BriggsBU (1138021) | about 2 years ago | (#41970417)

The low level players never want or need any help because it's too easy. I don't want to spend a lot of time learning each boss's tricks and having to run back countless times.

So the game is too easy but you don't want to put in work to learn a boss's fight?

Please make up your mind if you want a hard game or an easy game.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968629)

It's hilarious to watch the official "blue" forum posters try to defend the daily quest overload. They can't claim that it's fun or enjoyable. They can't claim that it's interesting. All they can do is keep coming up with new ways of saying "yes, it's a boring timesink, but we're not changing it".

The latest bilge I've seen from them on this is "Dailies are not required."

What's funny about that is, without doing dailies you can't get rep, and without rep you can't spend your VP. Since heroics, LFR, and raids all give VP, what are you supposed to do with it if you don't slog through these useless dailies?

They are talking about implementing a system by which you can upgrade your gear using VP as a VP sink once you don't need it to purchase 489 gear, but quite frankly I and many others don't trust them to not put this system behind a rep grind also.

ActiBlizzard: One step forward, two steps back.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968651)

I played into Cataclysm. I focused on one class (shaman, only had time for one really) and got into the whole raiding guild thing. Even did some PVPing. But as I started grinding into Cataclysm raids something just clicked in me and I quit. I think it was the thought of repeating all the grinding and tweaking I had done in WotLK, it made me cringe. I'd be doing essentially the same thing just with different monsters and different numbers on my gear. I really dislike the way Blizzard just tosses out everything you've done before. All your gear, skills, everything gets thrown out when a new release comes out. I also dislike the way all previous content becomes filler. All those interesting and beautifully done places become ghost towns. Then, as the parent comment mentions, the total number of dailies alone started to take hours every day. So one day I just said "That's it, I'm done" and quit.

The only way I'd really play at this point with the current game structure is maybe on a private server with "cheats" to speed up the time sucking parts of the game. I'm more interested in exploring the game and seeing the raids than in the dubious "thrill" of doing the same daily for the umpteenth time or spending hour after hour on a raid hoping to win the random number lottery for a drop. Gaming should be my way to relax, I don't want it to feel like a job.

One more thing, fighting pandas feels like attack of the muppets. It is bad enough the gear frequently made you look like a bad Mardi Gras float but pandas? I know there were silly aspects to the game, like goblins, but it always felt like Blizzard was laughing with you, not at you.

Maybe some players are doing it wrong. (1)

Shivetya (243324) | about 2 years ago | (#41968681)

Just because the quests are there does not mean they are required. Then again this is like any other feature of an addictive MMO, players feel cheated if they don't.

Far too many people are convinced they would be part of the elite if they only just... and then did ..... and they had ....

So yeah there are a bazillion quests, but guess what. Given Blizzard's track record your going to have two years before the next expansion and honestly, do you need every grade of shiny purple items, items that usually are reduced in value with each point release let alone expansion?

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

NotBorg (829820) | about 2 years ago | (#41968703)

It's worse still if you play as a tank or healer. DPS players can at least blitz through individual enemies quite quickly. As a tank or healer, the health pools for enemies take so long to chip down that the daily quest grind can actually take hours. Plus the daily quests are tied into the valor point system, so unless you are a hardcore raider, you're more or less tied into continuing with daily quest grinds even after you max out your reputation. JOY!

Two things. 1. Blizzard has made it easier than ever to respec. 2. MASSIVELY ONLINE. Get some buddies to run with. If you don't have any in your guild or whatever, spam general chat as you are picking up the quests. "Heals LFG daily quests" I get invited almost instantly on pvp realms. The DPSers never have to stop... if there's PvP it results in major pwnage and fun. You may even make a new friend.

I know there's a tenancy to want to solo all the content you can... but it's not necessary. You don't have to compete for the same quest mobs. Blizzard even reworked the "loot x many items" quests so that you don't have to collect x many for each player in the group. If a creature drops a quest item, everyone in the group can loot it. That is to say, adding more to the group doesn't increase the amount you need to kill.

If we can queue for random BGs, random dungeons, random raids, random scenarios... don't you think you have acquired at least some tolerance for having random players in your party? If someone is in the area doing the same thing as you... just send an invite. Makes it quick easy and encourages your faction to work together. "Boring and repetitive daily quests" everyone says... group up and it you won't find them so boring... even if you do you'll find that you move through them fast enough that it's not such a big deal.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968847)

Are we sure the OP even plays? Tanks having to chip away at mobs HP? Clearly he's never seen a pally, monk, or warrior tank.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

js3 (319268) | about 2 years ago | (#41968707)

The previous expansion had a limit. People complained they had nothing to do after doing the first 25. So they whined, then blizzard made it unlimited and they whined some more.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968925)

Actually, here's the reality of it:

A minority of people liked doing large amounts (25) of dailies each day for gold reasons. They complained about the cap.

Blizzard removed the cap, and made the initial 90 endgame gated by rep grinds that required a large amount of dailies.

What you said would only have substance if Blizzard just removed the cap. They didn't; they removed the cap because they're making us do excessive amounts of dailies if we want to get better gear.

Misrepresenting reality doesn't do you any favors karmawise.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

NotBorg (829820) | about 2 years ago | (#41969665)

They whined about not having the option to do more. The trouble now is that people feel like it's mandatory to do more than before. So they switched from not having the option of how many quests you do to not having the option of how many quests you do. People don't like feeling that they absolutely have to do X amount of quests a day if they want to stay relevant. Esp on a week day. People like the option to do more on their days off but that doesn't mean they want to always do more in their after-work time. So it's not about the upper hard cap it's about the softer minimum cap being too high for those that work for a living.

In previous expansions dailies didn't unlock content and gear to the extent they they do now.

Having said that, I don't feel it's that bad especially if you take advantage of the "massively online" part of WoW and group up. Dailies really do go fast in a group.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968719)

You dont have to do dailies at all. The problem is people trying to do ALL the content on ALL 9 of their 90 toons and then getting burned out.

Dailies get you 489 gear.
Heroics are 463 and slight chance of 463+
Regular mob farming slight chance of 476
Sha and Galleon are 483-496
Player made 476-496
LFR up to what 483?

You arent tied specifically to dailies for gearing and if you just want the rep for the plans/mounts/etc then you should have figured out grinding it is boring, its been like that for what half a decade and hasnt changed.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (1)

GoblinKing (6434) | about 2 years ago | (#41969453)

I agree completely. As a casual MMO-gamer I find the work/reward system to be the most enjoyable part of WoW. The fact that there is always SO much to do in this huge landscape is what keeps me coming back.

Have a bad day at work where you feel you have been "grinding" for 8-10 hours and accomplished nothing? Hit a raid or daily and, poof, you just did something useful with your day (emotionally at least by comparison).

Some days I just like to sit around and fish for that damn turtle mount ... doesn't matter that I haven't gotten it yet. It was the same for the TLPD. Until you happen upon it by chance and you get really excited because you haven't actually seen it in 2 years of playing the game.

So, personally, I love the new content. Have always enjoyed the background music for many of the zones (even bought the soundtrack a few years back). The back stories are engaging and the characters/NPC's you meet are often hilarious.

And speaking of grinding ... go for Insane in the Membrane and THEN complain to me about grinding... sure, it's easier now that the Shen'dralar are gone ... not.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

runeghost (2509522) | about 2 years ago | (#41969881)

So, the only non-raid sources of level 289+ gear are... player crafted items and dailies. A quick search reveals that there are exactly two crafted items available for any given spec, AND that making those items takes a fair amount of rare materials that... only come from raids. In other words, to get the best gear before raiding you need to run dailies. Claiming they're optional or that players don't need to do them appears rather disingenuous. If players aspire to be at the top of the game's internal hierarchy (and let's be honest, that's the whole point to playing for many if not most players) then dailies are only optional in the same sense that playing the game is optional.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968809)

I gave up on MoP when my raid pally who was in the top 25 of the server consistantly for heals was chucked out of his guild because "monks do everything pallies can, except better." Attempts to find a decent raid guild give the same exact thing, "roll a panda monk, we might consider you."

After all the time sunk into daily quests where I had to sacrifice my tank slot just do I had the DPS to pound the 15 bears for the "bring back 10 bear butts" quests, I just decided to say fsck it.

The FoTM thing with Blizzard gets old, and it is obviously predictable. Whatever new race/class comes out will be lord of the wasteland for 3-6 months, then get a legendary nerf. Usually this happens when a certain dev changes his main to another class.

I hate shilling, and I have zero relation to Trion, but I ended up picking up Rift and finding it everything that WoW should be [1]. When doing the level grind, you have multiple ways of doing so. You get decent experience in Rift's analog of battlegrounds, warfronts. IAs (real time running around in raids and killing stuff) is good experience. So are dungeons (which are not all just heroics.) Dungeons allow people to mentor down, so if your equipment is craptastic and you don't mind healing/tanking a lower level, it is a good way to get geared. If wanting to do events, those are common, as well as "rift surfing". If you just want to get mobs in one spot and AoE them, there are carnage quests that give you exp and loot for racking up the body count. Finally, there is always good old fashioned questing, both lore, and dailies.

Another nice thing is that your "class", or archetype isn't going to be thrown out of a guild due to a nerf. You might have to do a different talent set, but you are still useful, especially if knowing the fights and with the proper gear.

As for class population, yes, there are a lot of rogues, but because they can tank, range DPS, melee DPS, buff, and even heal, they always have a spot. If one soul gets nerfed, you just use another, or return. Rift is great for fine tuning a playstyle.

In WoW, you have to quest your way to end level, then run the dailies.

Oh yeah... Rift's first expansion launches today.

[1]: Well, some things would be nice to see in Rift. Flying mounts come to mind (because every other MMO has them.)

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969031)

As a rage warrior I can tell you it's really no better for DPS. It pretty much sucks equally for all parties concerned. It took me 5 hours yesterday to do dailies. I'd be inclined to say just screw them and not do it, but my guild would like to be able to raid again someday, and the only way you can get your gear to 470+ (the requirement for raid) is to grind dailies for a coulple of months. It's beyond aggrivating.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969367)

Mod me down if you must but this is my view on your main arguments.

Dalies - No daily quests are required, I've already completed the looking-for-raid (newbie raids for the outsider) and I am now enjoying regular raiding without ever doing a single daily. Tanks or Healers can use their second spec to go DPS, and with the gear changes you don't even need a second set of gear to manage dalies without issue. I've never seen a blue claim the dalies are required either by the way, only if you want the silly and frivolous rewards. Oh what about that profession item? Are you saying you can't find someone else on your entire server to make it for you? You're just being lazy.

Content - Yes the content is disposable, do you still play Super Mario 3 after you've conquered it 30 times? Of course not. Enjoy new and free content patches. They have retuned old content before as your suggestion (Scarlet Monestary, Deadmines, Onyxia's Lair) which just leads to players bitching that they are recycling. So which is it?

Why can't WoW be like XYZ? - So go play XYZ! I've played Ultima Online, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, EVE, Runescape, and various other smaller MMOs. I also like FPS, RTS and Turned based games. Hell I even used to play MTG. You don't see me saying "WoW sucks because their aren't enough trading card-type things in it!" Go and play that game if it's so much better. Seriously, if you hate it that much what's the big deal about playing something else? It's just one of the many games I am interested in.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41970149)

When Wow started to feel like a mind-numbing grind and too many chores, I was able to leave. You're talking about figuring out a sustainable endgame for its established veteran players. Blizzard has been doing that better than any competing MMORPG since the original Everquest. But since Blizzard has lost key developers including original creators/visionaries, I wonder if they have lost the ability to keep Wow truly fun, engaging & rewarding. Look at D3 - it lost that feeling of pure, instant fun that D2 had.

Re:Mists of Dailyquestia (2)

ShakaUVM (157947) | about 2 years ago | (#41970181)

Oh, lord. Dailies. Hated those damn things.

Thank you for inoculating me against any desire to buy Pandaren. =)

meh game reviews (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968221)

I don't know... it seems that more and more people turn their brains off and watch a review to figure out if they like a game.

this message (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968227)

this message was paid for by activision.

WarCraft, Star Wars, Halo, and other tired memes (0)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 2 years ago | (#41968247)

OK, we've been beating these dead horses for more than a decade. At this point I'm not even sure who HASN'T been bored by these over-expanded, over-merchandised universes.

Re:WarCraft, Star Wars, Halo, and other tired meme (1)

HeckRuler (1369601) | about 2 years ago | (#41969143)

So go play some Achron, Splunkey, DwarfFortress, X-Com, Slash'em, Dungeon Crawl, Braid, Cortex Command, FTL, Aquaria, Minecraft, Cave Story, Defcon, SpaceChem, or whatever floats your boat. No one is stopping you. But if people enjoy the classics, don't hold that against them.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from. I'm kind of a hipster when it comes to Pen&paper RPGs. I enjoy inner-party conflict, sleeper agents, plot twists, revolutionary tactics, and story-based motivators. And all too frequently I see yet-another-angsty-Drow going on a homicidal rampage because he's misunderstood and it makes me throw up a little inside. But I also understand that sometimes it's nice to have a classic dungeon dive with a fighter, rogue, wizard, and a cleric clearing out a death maze with a lich at the end. While it's good to try new things, there's comfort in the known.

too little, too late (1)

etash (1907284) | about 2 years ago | (#41968269)

shouldn't this slashvertisement appear around september 25 or so ?

Re:too little, too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968663)

shouldn't this slashvertisement appear around september 25 or so ?

I suspect if you asked a heroin user about heroin use the day after it came out versus a month down the road, you'd have very different information.

Re:too little, too late (2)

theangrypeon (1306525) | about 2 years ago | (#41968829)

Funny thing about reviewing MMOs. You really need to play it for a while to get a good grasp of what the game has to offer.

Not really (1)

Moraelin (679338) | about 2 years ago | (#41969969)

Not really. And here's why:

We're just a little over a month before Christmas, a MAJOR point in times when people buy stuff. Even people who couldn't be bothered buying something for September, are likely to buy stuff for Christmas. Either for themselves or for someone else.

So I'd say expect to see more of this kind of advertising over the next month. Or actually more accurately: PR firms and departments generating buzz. In fact expect it to ramp up over the next month.

No thanks. (1)

loonwings (1519397) | about 2 years ago | (#41968285)

No thanks, I've already got a full time job. The crazy bastards pay ME to do it, too!

no one cares about WoW: Kungfu Panda 3D.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968299)

WoW is seriously on the way out... it won't be around in a few years anymore

Re:no one cares about WoW: Kungfu Panda 3D.... (1)

RogueyWon (735973) | about 2 years ago | (#41968417)

Almost certainly wrong.

Despite a recent partial recovery due to the release of MoP, WoW does seem to be in decline. Its player numbers have been in gradual retreat, with a few dips and bumps, at least since the middle days of Cataclysm and arguably since the latter days of Lich King.

However, most MMOs to date, including many commercially successful MMOs, have spent most of their lifespan in decline. Everquest and Ultima Online's subscriber counts both peaked in their first two years, but both games had a lifespan long beyond that point (indeed, the continued life of Everquest was one of the biggest obstacles to its own sequel). Final Fantasy XI launched in Japan in 2002, had a player count that peaked shortly after the European launch in 2004, but is still alive and well today (Square-Enix keep threatening to kill it, but probably won't dare until and unless they can turn things arounf with Final Fantasy XIV). Lord of the Rings Online launched fairly well, had a gradually declining player-base for years, then as that started to dip towards a critical mass, it went Free to Play and is, by all accounts, reinvigorated.

There are occasional exceptions; MMOs which have such dramatic subscriber-bleed that they go into a death-spiral. I have a feeling that despite the huge amounts invested in it, this will be the fate of Star Wars: Old Republic if the free to play relaunch doesn't succeed (and I doubt it will, the f2p offering is more like a demo than an actual game).

But by and large, successful MMOs continue to live on for many years after their subscriber base peaks. WoW's achievement was that it continued to grow for quite as long as it did. At some point, Blizzard can put it into a low-dev-costs "semi-hibernation" and continue to run it for years, possibly introducing a few pay-to-win elements along the way.

I wouldn't be surprised if WoW was still alive and (relatively) healthy in 2022.

Re:no one cares about WoW: Kungfu Panda 3D.... (1)

xhrit (915936) | about 2 years ago | (#41968559)

> WoW is seriously on the way out... it won't be around in a few years anymore

I agree. As soon as blizzard is finished with their Titan Project, World of Warcraft is over. They will 'prolly keep a few servers around, but for all intents and purposes it will be done fort.

Re:no one cares about WoW: Kungfu Panda 3D.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968923)

Just like the desktop, right? Weeee! Internet predictions are fun! WoW was on it's way out back when they came out with BC... or so we were told. Forgive me if I don't jump on your bandwagon because you think that everyone is in consensus around your ideals.

p.s. Desktop browsers still dwarf mobile browsers by a very large amount (~90% to ~10%). Almost every time some Internet forum dweeb says the desktop is dead... it's read from a desktop computer.

Re:no one cares about WoW: Kungfu Panda 3D.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968977)

You'll always have the people who have no other life outside of it who can't let go. Hell, people still play Everquest.

Is this supposed to be humorous? (4, Insightful)

crazyjj (2598719) | about 2 years ago | (#41968303)

I'm not a big WoW fan, but I have to ask, was this whole "Kung Fu Panda" thing supposed to be a joke in a Blizzard meeting that somehow made it past the joke stage, or something? Because that seems like a REALLY silly addition to me in a game whose players ostensibly take very seriously. A mean, little bits of humor are one thing, but I wouldn't add a little blue race to the Halo universe called the "Smurfias."

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (1)

nomadic (141991) | about 2 years ago | (#41968377)

Thank you! I have been wondering the same thing; I don't play WoW so I could be wrong but I thought its whole aesthetic sense was just stolen from Warhammer, and anthropomorphic pandas seem tremendously silly for a dark fantasy theme.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | about 2 years ago | (#41968451)

Pandarians themselves are fine, and fit into the Warcraft universe pretty well. However, basing an entire exansion on them was pretty stupid.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (1)

xhrit (915936) | about 2 years ago | (#41968459)

Warhammer 40k is far more dark then normal Warhammer Fantasy, and 40k has a race called the Jokaero; a race of hyper advanced psychic orange-furred apes. Also, dwarf space bikers, called 'Squats'.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (2)

Hoi Polloi (522990) | about 2 years ago | (#41968709)

It really feels like they took a vanity pet (there was a panda pet) and used it for the basis of an entire expansion. Wait until they base an expansion on cat and dog pets.

I stopped playing but I agree that it seems like the whole atmosphere of the game has been shot to hell.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (3, Insightful)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about 2 years ago | (#41968443)

was this whole "Kung Fu Panda" thing supposed to be a joke in a Blizzard meeting that somehow made it past the joke stage, or something?

Basically, yes. The Pandaren were added in (I beleive) WC3 as something of a joke/just to have a little fun (think Cow Level in Diablo II). However, they actually became rather popular within the fan base. The fact that they were added into WoW, though, tells me that Blizzard was running out of ideas (and players), and threw in the pandas as kind of a finger in the dike scenario, and to try and lure back players that had left. However, as a poster above noted, its new content, but same old carrot on a stick grinding gameplay, which is what drove many people away in the first place. It really isn;t enough to bring people back, myself included.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | about 2 years ago | (#41968589)

I think the Pandas aren't as bad as some people made them out to be. It also adds some asian based cultural references to the game which makes the MMO appear more global in nature.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968791)

Its actually part of the lore and is not a joke. Kungfu panda came out years after blizzard bought the rights for pandaria.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (2)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 2 years ago | (#41968813)

>> "Kung Fu Panda" thing supposed to be a joke in a Blizzard? .. game whose players ostensibly take very seriously.

The two things I loved most about WarCraft is that it never took itself seriously ("you never touch the other elves that way") and that it happily tossed backstory and convention aside to stage battles ("OK, so here's an orc vs. orc battle"). The beer-breathing panda in WarCraft III was...well, kind of par for the course, so here you go.

Please don't tell me anyone's taking the World of Warcraft seriously.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969319)

I hope they make Elmo a boss fight then.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41970047)

The two things I loved most about WarCraft is that it never took itself seriously

Did you play before WC3? Warcraft 2 took itself very seriously, unless the player went out of their way to find easter eggs.

The World of Warcraft designers, on the other hand, seem to think that they need to reference every pop culture trend and Internet meme, and trumpet the references as loudly as possible so that the kids know they're still hip.

Re:Is this supposed to be humorous? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969047)

Players ostensibly take very seriously?

Have you not played WOW at all? Or Warcraft before it? Obviously you missed the rampant humor and silliness. It's never been the overwrought seriousness of some drama, but a mix of fun and tension.

Though if you think the Pandaren are all joke, you really have failed to pay attention. Then again bringing up this tired old complaint is likely evidence enough.

You say you're not a big fan, but I think you're just ignorant. None of what you had to say is new, nor is it particularly accurate. Maybe you're just innocently repeating the same mindless criticism without knowing, but if so that's your problem.

People who actually play just hear your complaints and sigh. Also Chen came first.

Well... Sorta (3, Informative)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | about 2 years ago | (#41969245)

It -is- a joke, Blizzard's joke in fact. Back in the early days of WoW they did an April Fools joke, saying that you'd be able to order food from Panderan Express (a play on the real company Panda Express) in game with the /panda command. More info: [] .

It was a joke at the expense of Sony, who really had implemented a /pizza command in Everquest 2 that would call up Pizza Hut's web page so you could order pizza.

However apparently Blizzard is completely fucking out of ideas, and forgot it was a joke, and so now kung-fu pandas are part of WoW.

LFR was deployed in the middle of Cata, not WotLK (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968331)

As the subject says, LFR was deployed in the middle of Cata, not WotLK.
Previously you just had a system where you put your name in, and if you were lucky somebody would contact you --- It was almost useless.

Guild Wars 2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968339)

Seriously, that's where the action is at least at the moment.

WoW was great but now it's done...

Re:Guild Wars 2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968817)

Yup, they haven't even lifted a finger to improve the graphics to catch up to improvements in graphics cards since they started. You can always grandfather people with older rigs but it is starting to look old like Everquest.


Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968393)


I'm going outside.

THANK YOU for having a transcript (2)

Baloroth (2370816) | about 2 years ago | (#41968437)

Just wanted to say thanks to Slashdot for adding the transcript, some of us can't watch the videos, and it's nice to have an alternative.

Now, down to the meat:

They say they want players to interact more with the story, but this move surprises me. Now, if you don’t want to log in and do a specified amount of repetitive content every day, you don’t progress at all.

Why would this surprise you? The entire point of an MMO like WoW is to get you to log in as often as possible, ideally every day, for some period of time. It's not even important to Blizzard what you do, really, just that you log in and do something. That drives up the server count, and ensures you are playing continuously, rather than brief spurts now and again. It's part of the MMO grind system. Blizzard likes WoW to feel full, even if it is just people repeating the same action over and over again. Same reason for this:

Really, it’s part of a larger problem, one endemic to the MMORPG industry in general, which is that developers still require excessive amounts of content repetition if you want to use multiple characters.

That isn't a problem from the developers point of view, thats a feature. Literally anything that gets people to spend more time in the game, and more importantly to spread out their enjoyment over a longer period of time (rather than getting a large enjoyment at once), is a fantastic thing from their point of view. It's basic addiction 101: give people small rewards over a long time with the promise of potential future rewards, rather than giving them a large reward all at once for relatively little effort. Keeps them addicted. You see the exact same methodology employed by Zynga and in tons of F2P and MMO type games. That's why they do that sort of thing, and it won't change so long as they keep charging (and people keep paying) a monthly fee. It's also why (from what I've heard) Guild Wars doesn't do that: because there isn't a monthly fee, they aren't trying to get you to grind as much as possible every day, they can give you the end rewards all at once.


They've further refined their “phasing” tech, which allows two different players standing in the same spot to see different things. Quest givers and objectives were phased to a greater degree this time around, and sometimes only visible to each user individually. This effectively reduced wait times.

Nice to see Blizzard implementing only the latest MMO techniques... that were Lord of the Rings Online (only an example, others may have done it earlier) featured 5 years ago.

Re:THANK YOU for having a transcript (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968509)

The entire point of an MMO like WoW is to get you to log in as often as possible, ideally every day, for some period of time.

Why do people believe this? They're not showing you ads. They don't give the slightest fuck if you play or not, as long you're paying that monthly subscription fee.

Re:THANK YOU for having a transcript (1)

jittles (1613415) | about 2 years ago | (#41968743)

Because, the bigger the server population, the easier it is to find groups for quests, instances, etc. I know you can do instances w/ others from other servers now, but it still makes the server feel more alive, magical, and interesting. You wouldn't play if there were only 10 people connected to your server at once. Part of the draw of WoW is the socialization while playing.

Re:THANK YOU for having a transcript (1)

runeghost (2509522) | about 2 years ago | (#41969427)

Why else do they provide massive incentives for doing exactly that (logging in every day) and punish (via delayed or inaccessible rewards) players who don't? It seems foolish to me, because as you pointed out, a player who logs in once a month for 2 hours and still pays his subscription is at least as profitable as one who spends 2 hours every day online. But... logging in every day (and performing the requisite tasks) gets you crafting points, cooking goodies, points to spend on gear, bonus points, rep with factions, pets, mounts, achievements, and more gold than you can shake a stick at. Try to play for 8, 12, or 16 hours every weekend and you'll still find your character outclassed by those for whom WoW is a daily habit.

Why do they push such a seemingly nonsensical model of gameplay? Idk, but I have a few theories. Maybe they're planning to monetize something (their next game?) via advertising, and being able to show potential ad buyers/investors foo-million eyeball hours is vital to the business plan. Or maybe they believe that literally making players into WoW addicts is necessary to keep them from quitting. Or maybe it has something to do with the business model for the Asian half of their playerbase, where, from what I understand, the players pay for playtime by the hour instead of a monthly subscription.

Full disclosure: I used to play WoW 20+ hours per week, but quit completely about a year ago. Amazing how much more free time I have now.

Re:THANK YOU for having a transcript (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41970467)

My theory is that they've fine-tuned their Skinner box and discovered that the 12-22 virgin demographic will keep pushing that lever long after everyone else has grown tired of MMOs (the writing is on the wall, people are tired of them), so they are going to milk the losers like crack-addicted cows for as long and as hard as they can.

I mean, look at all the morons in this thread rationalizing the daily quests. Do any of them strike you as the kind of people who have jobs, spouses, or the interests of healthy adults? All their tortured rationalizations boil down to "get moar lootz!", never recognizing the fundamental stupidity of doing something easy, repetitive, and boring, for hours, every day, in a fucking game.

Though you may also be on to something with the pay-by-the-hour thing.

Yiff in hell (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968539)

Goddamn furries.

mXoSd up (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968739)

contaminated while *BSD but FreeBSD channel, you might surveys show that steadily fucking today. It's about a BSD box (a PIII raise or lower the FreeBSD used to rules to follow and I probably eulogies to BSD's offended some OUTER SPACE THE Into a sling unless expulsion of IPF see. The number another troubled problem; a few do and doing what of the warring minutes now 3hile 'superior' machine. create, manufacture show that *BSD has there are only of OpenBSD versus dying' crowd - around return it hapless *BSD this is consistent ofone single puny show that *BSD has from the OpenBSD grandstanders, the Has ground to a

They lost me in Cataclysm (1)

FilmedInNoir (1392323) | about 2 years ago | (#41968837)

I had a guild and we did raids. We weren't the best but we tried and sometimes got lucky and succeeded purely through determination. But Cataclysm changed that. People with years of experience and WotLK elite gear were like babies in a minefield. Cataclysm was no longer for casual gamers, it was for elitists only. The twitchers and the number counters. I did ok, but it alienated a lot of people. People I liked to play with. So what's the point of doing dailies alone all the time? I want to go with my guildies into group events but if the group events are frustrating suicide missions what's the point? Are they going to change that? Is MoP going back to a more easy on the old people approach or it is it moving further into the either your awesome or your a useless noob. If the latter, then it seems like the number of noobs is growing and the problem is they give Blizzard the same amount of money as those few and far between uber-elites. Just that noobs don't like to hang around for the abuse and frustration and quit after awhile.

Re:They lost me in Cataclysm (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969707)

What the fuck? Cataclysm was for casuals to fap in the corner and collect lewtz.

Re:They lost me in Cataclysm (1)

babywhiz (781786) | about 2 years ago | (#41970125)

That wasn't until the end. BWD/Throne/BoT, then Firelands was painful for the less elite crowd (the people between the hard core and casual). The only thing I don't like about MoP is having to have the rep to get gear. I could understand that if they had tied the Tier pieces to rep, but if I valor cap, I don't understand why I can't get a less desired piece that will at least allow me to kill those stupid vermin and birds on my farm in a timely manner. (there are WAAAY too many things to kill when planting seeds.). My other gripe is more that I'm forced to remain on my main to be viable in raid when all I really want to do is finish leveling my other 10 alts so I can farm on them shouldn't take 2 toons 1 hour to do quests for the farm, plus Golden Lotus, plus the other reps for the professions,'s not the least bit alt friendly, which was what MY complaint had been all along during Firelands. (It's better than it was.....). Well, I'm not sure what I'm even trying to say anymore....except to point out that Cata wasn't flowing purples until Dragon Soul.

MoP is actually a huge improvement so far... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968841)

I've been playing WoW since it was on beta, and I can tell you that MoP is a breath of fresh air. I really don't understand the claim that WoW is hard to steer and not adaptable, as this expansion is very different from the previous ones.
I wouldn't worry about WoW losing subscribers just yet. MoP is so friendly to casual players that it makes Solitaire look like a game meant only for the most hardcore of players in comparison. My only problem with it is that it's now the third expansion in a row that trains players to play badly; so-called "heroic" dungeons have literally replaced the "normal" dungeons and are tuned accordingly, epic items are a dime a dozen, and actually challenging content just seems to be its own reward, which, again, makes sure that most people play badly.

Too many dailies (4, Insightful)

someones1 (1580023) | about 2 years ago | (#41968933)

As the current top comment states, there's wayyy too many dailies. Let's see if I can remember them all... Klaxxi, Tillers (which have a half-dozen individuals with their own rep meters mostly independent of the main faction -- so when you get exalted with Tillers, you might barely be a bubble up on half the members!), Golden Lotus (which you must grind to then open up more grinding with Shado-Pan and August Celestials), the Lorewalkers, the Anglers, and the Order of the Cloud Serpent. For some of them, the set of dailies can take up to an hour to do (I'm looking at you, Klaxxi, with your stupid 40-kills and wing pieces).

And they're boring as hell. But it seems near impossible to really advance without getting just about all the reps up to exalted. I hate doing it on my main character, more than ever before in previous expansions. Now I can't imagine going back through this on my alt. This review brings up an excellent point -- it's time to make rep apply across all of your characters of the same faction. Account-wide pets and mounts was a good start, but now it's time to do the next logical thing and give us account-wide rep.

Re:Too many dailies (1)

kdogg73 (771674) | about 2 years ago | (#41969543)

If it's too easy, you get bored. If it's too hard, you get bored. If it's too repetitive, you get bored. If the dailies aren't each revolutionary, you get bored. I hate dailies, but let the reward justify the hard effort? Kinda like life, or are we all expecting the silver spoon. I love this expac. And I hope it takes me a while to get through it all. :) BTW: I hear if you reach Revered/Exalted on your main, your alts will gain rep twice as fast... starting in patch 5.1? But that's what I've heard.

Re:Too many dailies (1)

Andreas Mayer (1486091) | about 2 years ago | (#41970143)

Account-wide pets and mounts was a good start, but now it's time to do the next logical thing and give us account-wide rep.

I'm almost through with my main with all the factions. Some of my friends already are. What am I supposed to do with my alts if they can just buy everything from the start? There wouldn't even be a point in doing instances since the faction rewards are better.

Also you don't have to get the factions up to exalted with your alts since all you get for that are mounts and mounts are already shared.

And the review doesn't even touch the issues I see (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41968937)

1) All instances have become a foot race when you've dropped into LFG.
2) Limited number of dungeons from 85 to 90.
3) Gear from 85 to 90 doesn't leave you in a position to go to heroics, even if you get all the gear available.
4) Content for pre-85 is too easy, blink and you miss it.
5) Vast parts of the world are now ignored.
6) Pre-85 level instances have been greatly dumbed down. Average time of 15 minutest to complete. See previous comment about footraces.
7) Difficulty of communicating with vast number of players from realms that speak different languages. One night I was with a random instance group where the languages spoken were, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese of some sort and French. No one could communicate other than the Spanish and Portugese speakers, and they only hurled insults at each other.
8) Pandas. Wow, they are stupid.

Excellent review (2)

ip_freely_2000 (577249) | about 2 years ago | (#41969001)

and i completely agree with comments about the future of the game. While I've had fun running two toons to 90, the grind for my other toons may not happen at all. I'm tired of it. Blizzard needs to make XP and rep for alts, once you've run through content once or twice, greatly accelerated. Then I'd have more fun with the end game content.

Re:Excellent review (1)

Andreas Mayer (1486091) | about 2 years ago | (#41970203)

Blizzard needs to make XP and rep for alts, once you've run through content once or twice, greatly accelerated.

That's what they plan for rep, I've heard.
Accelerating gaining XP? Even more? Then they could just have you skip leveling completely.

Really? (1)

yoshi_mon (172895) | about 2 years ago | (#41969027)

As much as I'd love to spend every one of my 15 mod points furiously thrashing this whole thread, I think a much better justice will be done by first asking:

1. Really? Now you are going to post a review on a game that has been out for almost a month? Nevermind that the beta was well published and visited by many who got to buy their way in. Nevermind that WoW at this point has almost more websites devoted to it than cats. Nevermind that the game itself is PTR testing the next major patch. Now, now /. is going to grace us with a thread about WoW? Really?

Now that I've gotten that out of the way I'll give a few more points in no order.

2. IMO this is the 1st major version of WoW that Greg Street (AKA Ghostcrawler) has had total control over the game. And it shows. Daily quests are now pretty much mandatory, much to the PR arm's (which includes cleverly the use of their fans), denial. Of course even Greg is not stupid, he does have a PhD in Biology (and that makes him a Lead Dev in an MMO...why?), so he (or someone smarter than him) eventually lifted the Justice Points rep grind on gear.

And actually in Breaking News!, one of the major topics on the General Forums as of last night was Blizzard actually willing to talk about how people are not happy with the rep grind in the game. Seems that after this game has been around for so many years and that people who have fleets of toons at this point are not happy that it is going to take them a metric fuckton of time to get each one of those toons all the rep they need is not popular!

They are still playing this one as Risk Management 101 in which I will refer to you to Mass Effect 3 if you want a primer on how that works.

3. The gameplay is actually not bad. As are the visuals and, if you again have a metric fuckton of time to spend, you can actually get some really cool stuff. There are also some pretty neat additions to the game with turn based pet battles, farming, and some actually neat play mechanics for all the classes.

4. However there are still bugs and while that is to be expected modern MMOs have reduced their downtime/hotfix window much more than Blizzard has. Now I know that dealing with legacy code is annoying at best. But given the cash flow that Blizzard has enjoyed over the years, that we still have to deal with Tuesday outages, sometimes that last 8+ hours, is unacceptable.

They have said before that 'hiring more programmers won't just fix things'. Well, not really Blizzard. There are whole sets of methodology of how you program code to make it bug free. And with the amount of revenue you have you should make it happen. Your business should not be all about getting your execs their next new BMW.

5. Overall Mists is OK. Again another linear quest path to the level cap, however pretty. I've got an 85 (some 90 now) of every class save a Monk and the gameplay is actually good on some of them. On others needs work but that is something that I've learned to accept since vanilla. However the grind, and this is coming from someone who did the TBC grind, is unacceptable.

biznaTcih (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#41969903)

4 kinds of people... (5, Funny)

billtom (126004) | about 2 years ago | (#41970427)

My review of Mists comes down to dividing players into four groups:

1. You are an active WoW player.

Well, you don't need a review of Mists because you most likely already bought it.

2. You are a former WoW player, and you're kind of thinking that you'd like to come back to the game.

Then please do come back. Blizzard did a pretty good job with this expansion. Lost of the rough edges have been smoothed. There's some good content. Fun to be had.

Will you stay with the game for months? I don't know. But you'll be playing at that point, so you can make up your own mind.

3. You're a former WoW player but you're still pretty down on the game.

If the very thought of being told to "kill 10 panda-moose" makes you sick to your stomach, then for god's sake, don't come back. While Blizzard is on their game for this expansion, it's still basically the same game you left and the things that made you leave are mostly still going to be there.

4. You've never played WoW.

Well, my advice for all multiplayer games (MMO's, FPS's, etc, etc) is to play whatever your friends are playing (real-life or online friends).

Online multi-player games are infinitely more fun when you play with your friends. So if your friends are playing WoW, play WoW; if your friends are playing Team Fortress, play that; if your friends are playing Hello Kitty Online... well, make new friends.

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