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One Musician's Demand From Pandora: Mandatory Analytics

Unknown Lamer posted about a year and a half ago | from the stick-to-being-a-musician dept.

Music 227

jfruh writes "Most Slashdotters have been following the debate among the various players in the music industry about how much money artists (and their labels) get from traditional music outlets like radio and newer services like Pandora or Spotify. But Zoë Keating, a professional cellist who has a professional interest in the outcome of this argument, thinks there's one thing missing from all the proposals: more data on who her audience is. Even digital services can't tell her how many people heard her songs or where they're most popular. 'How can I grow my business on this information?' she asks. 'How do I reach them? Do they know I'm performing nearby next month? How can I tell them I have a new album coming out?'" She proposes mandatory reporting of information on listeners as part of royalties.

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227 comments

My response to her is (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42036903)

GFY!

I'd opt-in - but it needs to be an opt-in (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42036957)

although I'm moderately surprised that it doesn't already exist....wait - it exists. It must. Nevermind.
It just is being sold to people who have more to gain from this info than the actual artists themselves. Well....I guess is what those unions are for then huh?

Middle-man Fee ! (4, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037163)

With all the data already collected actually it's not that hard to generate the dataset that Zoà Keating or any musician required, via data-mining.

The problem is on who's going to pay for the data-mining effort?

I reckon that if the Musicians (or any other people) wants the dataset and are willing to pay for it, there will be people who will be more than happy to provide the service.

Re:Middle-man Fee ! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037351)

And best of all, her name is Zoe. Until recently it was the single mother name of choice.

Re:Middle-man Fee ! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037909)

A single mom is a woman who definitely puts out and probably with little thought of the consequences.

Re:Middle-man Fee ! (5, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038509)

That is not the biggest problem I see here.

The biggest problem is that she still doesn't understand the first sale doctrine. I bought a recording, not a relationship.

If I want to attend a concert i am perfectly capable of seeking that Information or joining a fan club. Any information she get from me should be at my decision.

Re:Middle-man Fee ! (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038545)

That is not the biggest problem I see here.

The biggest problem is that she still doesn't understand the first sale doctrine. I bought a recording, not a relationship.

If I want to attend a concert i am perfectly capable of seeking that Information or joining a fan club. Any information she get from me should be at my decision.

She's talking about Pandora, which is a streaming service. You aren't purchasing anything, you didn't buy anything, so first sale doesn't apply.

Re:I'd opt-in - but it needs to be an opt-in (2)

MightyMartian (840721) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037415)

Artists have a hard enough time getting royalties and accounting out of labels. Asking for statistics is shooting for the moon.

Re:I'd opt-in - but it needs to be an opt-in (1)

iluvcapra (782887) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037539)

Pandora and Spotify are just labels by a different name. They tweaked the business model, and the managers are careful to wear pocket protectors instead of sunglasses, but that's about it.

Re:I'd opt-in - but it needs to be an opt-in (1)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038127)

Pandora and Spotify are just labels by a different name.

How many musicians are signed to Pandora or Spotify?

Re:I'd opt-in - but it needs to be an opt-in (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037459)

Of course this data is already being reported, but in interest of consumer privacy a lot of data is obfuscated and sometimes the most detailed item about a person reported to labels and music rights bodies (those who in turn pay the artists) is zip code and state.

I work for a similar service (not Pandora) - as much is reported as is requested. If it is a question of what track is the most popular in what area - she is trying to put the onus on the wrong party here. If this record artist wants to know the age breakdowns of their music listeners - this is a request they need to put towards said royalty bodies.

Whose Data Is It? (5, Interesting)

sdoca (1225022) | about a year and a half ago | (#42036985)

The last line of the article is a quote from Zoe (emphasis mine):

“I want my data and in 2012 I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn’t own it,” she wrote.

Which begs the question in my mind, whose data is it? The stations' to whom listeners tune into and collect the data or the artists' whose music is played? I would argue its the stations as they're the ones collecting it.

Another question is what is the data? I don't listen to any satellite or internet radio stations so I could be wrong, but I suspect that in the case of internet radio you can get the number of feeds and their location but that's about it. Is there any listener data that can be collected by satellite? How can that data be used to help artists market themselves better?

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Dahamma (304068) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037031)

Yeah, bullshit HER data. I'm sure the data she gets on streams is much more accurate than any data on how many people heard a broadcast (which I would guess is near zero for a cellist) and still more interesting than CD sales data (since it tells her how many times each song has been played, not simply purchased).

If she wants to figure out her audience she can do it herself rather than try to demand a content provider invade anyone's privacy...

Re:Whose Data Is It? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037081)

It's MY data. She got MY money in trade for the music. Is that not enough? Is this going to be another reason to drive people to piracy? She didn't get this kind of detailed information when her song was delivered over radio waves, why should she she demand my information now that it is over IP?

Re:Whose Data Is It? (4, Insightful)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037507)

You got something in exchange for your money, so arguably the data is half hers. Also, the data she's requesting still leaves you anonymous, but would allow her to be able to know what age ranges like her music and what parts of the world. This would allow her to be a more successful artist by focusing her marketing efforts to those people who might actually pay to see her in concert, which eventually benefits you as she continues to make the music you enjoy. Everybody wins. Radio doesn't offer that kind of information, and as a result it always goes for the safe money (or the payola, as the case may be) and plays the music guaranteed to appeal to the largest majority of listeners. If you're listening to Pandora then it's likely because terrestrial radio has let you down in terms of selection. Exactly what are you fighting against here? Allowing people to give you what you want?

Re:Whose Data Is It? (5, Insightful)

TheLink (130905) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037575)

Bullshit. Why should getting something in exchange for the money automatically mean the data is half hers?

She's got the data on whatever she has sold directly.

If she doesn't want to incur the costs of selling directly then why should she automatically get the benefits of selling directly to the customers?

The supermarket and grocery store knows who is buying their stuff and where. If the farmer wants to know where each tomato is going, the farmer is going to have to pay for it. Or set up his/her own store.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037577)

I think she needs to be a little less entitled. It is the customer and merchants data. It is illegal to disclose it to third parties without customer consent.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037665)

And I'm sure that if i were to demand her listening data that she would take the opposite side of the argument. If she really wants to get her information out to her listeners then she can set up a website, and ask that a link to that website be made available while her songs played. It's easy to imbed this data into MP3's and into internet radio streams, as well as just about any other digital media. What she is currently asking for is to basically spy on her users, so that she can optimize her profits.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037951)

You got something in exchange for your money, so arguably the data is half hers.

She got money, I got music. There was no agreement to get my data. 0% is hers.

Also, the data she's requesting still leaves you anonymous, but would allow her to be able to know what age ranges like her music

Just age? Or my full birthday? How about my IP address? Or my real address? Or my credit card number? Does she get to say which information and where the line is drawn? Which "HALF" of MY data does she get exactly?

Exactly what are you fighting against here? Allowing people to give you what you want?

That just because I trade my money for something doesn't mean they can get my personal information "just because it's the internet".

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037989)

You got something in exchange for your money, so arguably the data is half hers.

So that works both ways then by your logic? I should now have a right to request personal information from all musical artists so I can track them? I mean, their personal data is half mine now right?

Re:Whose Data Is It? (1)

AftanGustur (7715) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038213)

You got something in exchange for your money, so arguably the data is half hers.

The data she is requesting was generated by my actions, it is a data about what I did. Just like the GPS data in your telephone represents your movements, and the event log in your PC tells what programs you ran and the browsing history what websites you visited. It is your data.

What we need is a law that states that metadata belongs to the person that generated it.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42038649)

What we need is a law that states that metadata belongs to the person that generated it.

Well first of all no we don't. Passing more laws is not the answer to every little problem or irritation you have in life.
Second, technically speaking the metadata was generated by the music service, not you.
Third, she can have my information. She'll find out that Butt H. Urt who lives at 6969 Phisting Drive in southern California is 42 years of age likes to listen to her music, as well as some heavy metal, pop, classical, and trance.
And finally, she does not have any rights to demand user information from the streaming services, just like she has no right to demand that ID be shown to purchase her albums in a brick and mortar store, and just like she doesn't get to have all the personal information from the people who attend her live shows. If she wants that to be part of the contract to stream her album or purchase a concert ticket then fine, if she can get the services and promoters to agree to that then she can have it. But she'll quickly find that many people don't want to divulge that information, and will simply move on to other artists and other forms of distribution which do not have those requirements.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (1)

Doctor_Jest (688315) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037089)

Exactly... well said. I don't understand how artists did it before the internet. I guess there weren't any successful artists before Pandora and the wealth of listener data that accompanies it.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (4, Insightful)

bistromath007 (1253428) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037597)

This post, and the entire thread it's spawned, seems like a perfect example of what is fundamentally wrong with the idea of ownership of information. Something as very basic as "who wants this stuff" is information that would help every business and consumer in the entire chain if it were released publicly, but that doesn't happen, because every single business and consumer in the chain wrongly, stupidly, and greedily claims that it is theirs and nobody can use it if they don't get a cut. Nearly everyone involved in this industry works as hard as they can to screw themselves over, all because they want to be paid for something that literally everybody has a reasonable claim to.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (1)

JasterBobaMereel (1102861) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038153)

No it does not help the customer who are in the majority ...if you sell 300 items then 300 people want them it does not matter who they are where they are, it only reduces your advertising costs as you can direct your adverts to people who are already buying your product (and leave out the people who are not buying now) !

Re:Whose Data Is It? (4, Insightful)

bistromath007 (1253428) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038261)

You need to complete this thought, guy. An independent artist with a quite limited travel budget is trying to figure out where to perform next. If she has data on where there are large numbers of her fans, she can have more successful shows, allowing her to put on more shows and continue creating, thus benefiting her fanbase. Successful artistry is not a parasitic relationship unless you're some kind of objectivist robot.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

khallow (566160) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037797)

It's apparent that she thinks it's her data because she would benefit from access to that data. Basically I should own something because I want it. I can't see how that rule could possibly be abused.

Re:Whose Data Is It? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037923)

It's certainly not hers and she needs to realise that.

I think not (5, Insightful)

SSpade (549608) | about a year and a half ago | (#42036987)

Geographic distribution and some basic demographics is one thing, and quite a reasonable one, but combine "How do I reach them? How can I tell them I have a new album coming out?" and “I want my data and in 2012 I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn’t own it.” and it sounds like the worst sort of stalkery marketer who'll abuse the hell out of your personal information for a buck.

Re:I think not (2)

dbc (135354) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037043)

Sure, I see your point. But for certain artists I would like to be able to opt-in to show announcements. Or get a summary. Like, how about a personalized calendar that shows the dates for nearby shows for the list of artists I select? I get a calendar, and artists get anonymized numbers about where and how many people have added them to their calendar.

Re:I think not (1)

acidream (785987) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038039)

Not exactly what you are talking about, but last.fm has something that tells you if the artist you are listening to is on tour and provides show dates.

Re:I think not (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038223)

So go and subscribe to her newsletter.

Re:I think not (5, Interesting)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037047)

Not necessarily.
Think about YouTube analytics.

I find out that certain videos are a hit with certain blogs, that's where my traffic comes from. So I make sure to give them more of what they want, PLUS I struck up a relationship of sorts with the blog owners which is mutually beneficial.

I let them know when I have new content, which helps them. They give me a wider platform, info that helps me learn the subculture, etc.

I am NOT a networker kind of person, I'm a "do every last thing yourself" kind of person, but analytics let you know when you're wasting your time, let you know where your "friends" and compatriots are, etc.

For a musician, it could even help them know what cities they might try booking an appearance in, because they discover they have a fan base there.

Re:I think not (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037553)

but analytics let you know when you're wasting your time

So you are a networker. You're doing things that will bring you fame, rather than things that are true to what you believe.

Re:I think not (1)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037985)

No.

I am not chasing fame. I post everything anonymously, with a creative commons license.

I am chasing INFORMING people. I am chasing adding to the body of human knowledge in my extremely modest way. I am chasing pleasing people. I am chasing putting something out there that people find inspiring or engaging or fun or cool.

Anonymously.

Because I too like fun, cool, inspiring things and appreciate when others put them out there.

I am chasing GIVING BACK.

Re:I think not (2)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037643)

Not necessarily.
Think about YouTube analytics.

I find out that certain videos are a hit with certain blogs, that's where my traffic comes from. So I make sure to give them more of what they want, PLUS I struck up a relationship of sorts with the blog owners which is mutually beneficial.

I let them know when I have new content, which helps them. They give me a wider platform, info that helps me learn the subculture, etc.

I am NOT a networker kind of person, I'm a "do every last thing yourself" kind of person, but analytics let you know when you're wasting your time, let you know where your "friends" and compatriots are, etc.

For a musician, it could even help them know what cities they might try booking an appearance in, because they discover they have a fan base there.

so she should get a fb page.
btw. networking with blog owners and people who bring you traffic sure as fuck sounds like "networking".

Re:I think not (1)

Jafafa Hots (580169) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038009)

There's a lot of contempt for her in your response.
Makes me question your motives.

I'm networking? If you can call using analytics networking.
If you can call not ONE of the half of a million people who have watched my videos and not ONE of the blog owners knowing my name or who I am "networking."

If you can call me spending my own money to create things and give them all away free, anonymously, "networking."

Personally I just call it "using available data to see what people appreciate."

The contempt is not for the statement (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42038669)

The contempt is your refusal to accept that you ARE a networker.

The contempt is the contempt YOU hold for the idea of being a networker. Others are just telling you "You're one too".

And stop being so bloody entitled. YOU are the reason why piracy is victimless: you deserve the same as you do. You demand free stuff, pirates demand free stuff. Except YOU get to whine on public TV.

Re:I think not (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42038713)

There's a lot of contempt for her in your response.

I don't see it, but I'm sure she deserves it. She does not own the data just because she wants it and it would make her money; that is a contemptible and childish attitude.

Re:I think not (5, Interesting)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037061)

it sounds like the worst sort of stalkery marketer who'll abuse the hell out of your personal information for a buck.

Whoa there partner, back up. What this artist is asking for is entirely reasonable because this information is already available to the distributor. And offering additional information from the artist like when and where shows are happening is not only reasonable but the main method by which independent artists make their money! Radio was given free license to air music precisely because air time led to increased ticket sales, and they're very pro-active about announcing concerts that are coming up; It's typically part of the contract.

This person isn't asking for the personal details of every listener, but rather information on when and where those listeners are -- something that would be needed to audit the distributor and ensure their contractual agreement is being upheld, and something that a court order would easily be granted for. And it's just good business anyway. There's nothing "stalkery" about this. Or would you prefer the artist take it on faith that the distributor isn't screwing them over? As I understand it, there's something of a commotion over contractual obligations of certain 4-letter acronym'd agencies that often talk about "artists' rights", though they afford none to those who sign contracts with them. Shouldn't we be wanting the industry to be moving away from this kind of vendor lock-in?

Re:I think not (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037211)

You are such an idiot. Not for this single comment, but a series of comments I've read and thought, "Wow, this person is stupid." Then, I look at the name and see "girlintraining" time and time again.

Re:I think not (1)

Canie (652059) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037329)

I occasionally read a comment and if I learned something or just plain liked it I'll take a look to see who wrote it. Frequently it's girlintraining. I like the what you bring to /.

Re:I think not (2)

SSpade (549608) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037483)

What this artist is asking for is entirely reasonable because this information is already available to the distributor.

Also available to the distributor is all the information about the other artists you listen to. And your zip code, your email address, your age. Possibly, depending on what sort of account you have, your home address and your credit card number. I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't ask for your credit card number, but I'm sure she'd love to have your email address.

Re:I think not (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037607)

The request for data is reasonable, the artists attitude is not. Calling it her data and that she should "own" it is what makes her wrong. It is the typical attitude of artists. They are afforded by the people an incredibly generous term of copyright, but that is not enough for her. Everything that is touched by that creation is now hers.

It is this kind of attitude that will lead to her living to see the end of such monopolies. Copyright is not a basic right of man.

Oh why is even THAT reasonable? (5, Insightful)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037173)

She sells a product, TO THE RADIOSTATION, who then sells it to us. I am quite sure that say, Hostess, would like to have the demographic data from each supermarket, but they can't have it because it is NOT their data.

It is only the odd nature of content (infinitely replicatable unlike physical products) and bought laws that even has music being counted (number of times played). Physical product makers sell X amount to resellers and that is all the data they get. Why do you THINK they hold product promotions requiring you to send in your address? To get some data on were their products end up because the supermarkets are NOT just going to tell them for the fun of it. The product maker delivers his goods to the supermarket and his involvement ends there. He wants more, he pays for it. Through the nose.

A supermarket has no obligation, legal or moral to even record, let alone report, how that pallet of cookies was distributed amongst its shops let alone its customers. The amount of entitlement in this Zoe the Freeloading cellist demand is staggering. You want to get in touch with your customers, engage them yourself. It is NOT a broadcasters job to do that for you. Setup a youtube channel or whatever and get people to give them your details, expecting a radiostation to do that for you is everything that is wrong with the content industry today.

Content is a product nothing more, I buy it the same as toilet paper and frankly I be a lot more upset running out of toilet paper then out of commercial content.

What next, MP3 players have to upload logs of the play history, so the bills can be send correctly? She wants to force the use of kinect with Pandora to count the number of listeners?

She wants private consumer data from a commercial entity for free. If it wasn't the content industry this would be instantly discarded in the waste basket of bloody stupid ideas. Really, would you be okay with Hostess getting your address from the supermarket that they got from your credit card?

NO! Hell, in Holland at least, the supermarket itself ain't even allowed to use its payment data to find out peoples addresses, they have the bank numbers but are not allowed to match them in anyway. That is why loyalty cards are not simply tied to your bank pas which would be far simpler then having a separate card and give far more reliable tracking data (you didn't think loyalty cards existed for any other reason did you).

But this bitch wants that data. Fuck OFF.

Re:I think not (1)

artor3 (1344997) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037233)

There is a way to let the artist reach the user without infringing on the user's rights. Right now, the webpage displays info on the artist. You can reach that same info by clicking on the band's name in the desktop app. Just let artists add a couple sentences to their bio page. Something like "We have a new album called XXX coming out on YYY! Be sure to check it out!"

Problem solved. People who want to learn more about the artist can get the info, people who don't care don't get ads shoved in their face. I don't know if Ms. Keating would be satisfied with that arrangement, but anything more than that would probably leave me reconsidering my subscription.

Re:I think not (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037625)

The solution to the problem would be to allow the artist to BUY an ad that is displayed when someone listens to their music.She wants to know how to grow her business. The answer is to pay for advertising like every other business in existence.

Re:I think not (2)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037523)

I disagree. She says that she wants "her" data, but she's talking about basic demographics and geographic distribution. There are plenty of automated, autonomous ways for Pandora et al to help her reach you without her ever knowing who exactly you are. If the data tells her that all of her fans are located in San Francisco, then she would be wasting time and money holding a concert in Cincinnati, and vice-versa. She then takes out a TV ad, a billboard or a newspaper ad saying that she'll be in the area for a concert and her fans can then buy tickets. Everybody wins. I don't see the problem with this.

Re:I think not (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038473)

Just a couple of posts above yours is one that shows how badly you've missed the point.
Bistromath wrote:

An independent artist with a quite limited travel budget is trying to figure out where to perform next.

If a touring musician doesn't know they have fans in Sunnydale C.A. for instance they won't be booking the Bronze for a gig.

The cat is out... (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037029)

'How can I grow my business on this information?' she asks. 'How do I reach them? Do they know I'm performing nearby next month? How can I tell them I have a new album coming out?'"

I guess the cat is out of the Pandora's box, eh? Well, let's see what else is in there...

(look what a fool's hope remained locked...) you want that info about me, drop your prices.
Oh... is it free already? Then... what about starting to pay me for my data?

(grin)

Mixed metaphors are fun (1)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038273)

I guess the cat is out of the Pandora's box, eh?

Put your battle-axe back in the scabbard. You've made your bed; now you have to eat it. We could stand here and talk until the cows turn blue. It’s time to step up to the plate and lay your cards on the table.

i knowz! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037033)

1) Start new startup Trogdorion, the next Spotify!
2) Coffee, whiteboards, conferences, meetups
2) ?
3) Profit!

What right does she have... (0)

Zemran (3101) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037041)

... to my information? I want to keep my right to privacy and although I accept that she can ask, she does not have a right to it.

what privacy? (4, Insightful)

Isara (869637) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037145)

your listening data is already being collected. She may or may not be asking for listener email addresses, but if not, the statistics on your likes and dislikes and other listening patterns are part of the music genome project anyway. How would the artists' ability to view your listening patterns (without identifying you specifically) violate any right to privacy that isn't already given up as part of your agreement when creating an account to use the service?

Re:what privacy? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037355)

that is my decision to make asshole.
the service has a privacy policy and this bitch wants to violate it.
the end.

Re:what privacy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42038757)

Because Pandora's agreement may or may not include giving certain information to third parties under certain circumstances. What if your bank started handing out your personal information to some arbitrary people? Would you say it's all good and fair because you gave your information to the bank?

How can I tell them I have a new album coming out? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037045)

Buy ads like everyone else?

Re:How can I tell them I have a new album coming o (2)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037559)

... and this is the one thing that is so irritating.

Ms. Zoà Keating things that because people listen to her song she has the right to SPAM her listeners with announcement of new album / new gig / new whatever and so on.

Granted, a portion of her listeners would want to know everything she does, but a larger portion do not.

And it is not right for an artist to bug the listeners, whether they are paid listeners, or not.

Here's an idea you can monetize (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037063)

Step 1: Be an obnoxious prick and demand things for nothing
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Eat shit and die.

Re:Here's an idea you can monetize (1)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037527)

Yeah, darn those people who listen to internet radio for free!

Re:Here's an idea you can monetize (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038477)

Because there are no ads in radio, in fact, the song themselves aren't ads at all.

Re:Here's an idea you can monetize (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037571)

hehe myspace ftw

So? (1)

lennier1 (264730) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037075)

Wouldn't market research like that be in their own best interest anyway?

Re:So? (1)

Plammox (717738) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038259)

No. I don't necessarily want more of the same. Why would I want to be locked in one specific musical genre? I want to explore entirely new directions and be inspired. Targeted marketing would reduce the scope of new music, based on the marketeer's opinion of what I should like. Well guess what, I like Slipknot, Burt Bacharach, Louis Armstrong, electro-house, J.S. Bach, Bulgarian folk music and obscure Scandinavian jazz artists.

Fit that into your marketing DB, mr. Marketing Person. (not at you, OP)

Make an example of her... (2, Interesting)

future assassin (639396) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037091)

thow her the fuck out. With out exposure she'll have nothing, let her run her own website and gather those stats. The only things pandora should give out is the basic stats on how much the copyright owner should get paid past that they can PAY Pandora to get more stats.

Re:Make an example of her... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038447)

It's like this.

User data can be found easily by a company that sells stuff. They log all kinds of crap about you, and it's not illegal. If it's not illegal, then it's legal, meaning the data can be sold or bought. After that, it's simply a matter of negociating the services provided, like royalties and other things like the stats. She can pay for it, because the data belongs to the collector, not her.

The problem ... a website doesn't need to log anything about it's users. Never. They can make things easier, for the user, by providing them with a username and password, to see their buy history, but other than that ... there should be no reason to use real name, to store country, language, gender or age. Still, most of the time, you don't have a choice, or worse, get tricked into it.

If the artist really wants to get to know their userbase, then it's a simple matter of launching a blog and facebook page. It doesn't take long to setup or maintain.

I worked for a distributor of Colgate-Palmolive products for a few years. And in exchange for data about the firms we delivered goods to (like size, quantity bought, all from our records, not something given by those firms), we got slightly bigger discount.

Re:Make an example of her... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038609)

It sounds like she's thinking about it from her perspective of what streaming music services like Spotify or Pandora are doing. They are already collecting this information and keeping it to themselves. They use it for the Music Genome project to help predict what kind of music a person might like to build those dynamic "stations" they have. As part of it a user clicks if they like, dislike or want to skip a track. They also track searches for songs/albums/artists etc. The users sign up and tell the streaming service info like their age and gender too.

I see it as a bigger part of the royalties argument, the streaming services are making money through ads and quite likely selling those customer metrics. Especially on Spotify which now requires Facebook integration to sign up.

She just wants general customer metrics, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but I suspect the streaming services won't give them to her, they might sell them to her.

I imagine it's quite frustrating when royalties made from having your music streamed are rather pathetic anyway. As far as letting fans know when you have a show coming, it could work just like last.fm where artists have pages with concert info and links to their web sites. If streaming services gave up this data, I bet artists would be a lot less upset about the bad royalty agreements they have from their labels.

Not to mention a more obtuse form of these metrics are generated by SoundScan and the other music ranking systems who's names I can't remember.

Google. (5, Informative)

vovick (1397387) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037099)

How do I reach them? Do they know I'm performing nearby next month? How can I tell them I have a new album coming out?

They can look you up if they like your performance on the radio. If they like it, they can look you up and probably subscribe to your RSS feed with all your new updates. If they are not doing so, they don't like you and your songs. Duh.

Re:Google. (1)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037535)

Unless you want to see her live in concert and she never plans one in your area because she had no idea that people in Podunk, Vermont are dying to see her perform live. Also, although RSS is awesome, it's a really crappy medium for listening to music. Being text and all. Just sayin'.

Re:Google. (1)

vovick (1397387) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037767)

Also, although RSS is awesome, it's a really crappy medium for listening to music

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you liked an artist's performance, you can google their site where you can find out where to buy their music (or donate) and subscribe to all the latest news (RSS, email). This is all I was saying. The radio played your song and gave your name, this is all that is needed to the listener to reach you. You can ask the radio station to provide a direct link to your site, but this is as far as common sense goes in terms of shoving your name into listeners' throats.

she never plans one in your area because she had no idea that people in Podunk, Vermont are dying to see her perform live

Valid argument. However, there is absolutely no need for forcing radio station to do this. People will write you mails asking if you will be performing in their town. You can create a form for people interested in your performance on your site asking them to provide their location. You can gather information from your official forum if you set one. If you are too much of a stalker, you can track visitors' IPs on your site and see places where you are popular the most. Heck, there are lots of ways of collecting this data, and none of them involves stalking people who don't care about you and your music and just happened to listen to the radio when your song was playing.

Re:Google. (1)

alexgieg (948359) | about a year ago | (#42038727)

They can look you up if they like your performance on the radio. If they like it, they can look you up and probably subscribe to your RSS feed with all your new updates. If they are not doing so, they don't like you and your songs. Duh.

This is valid for, let's call them "professional listeners", people who absolutely love music and actively go after it. But there are others like me, however, people we could call "middle-of-the-road listeners", who aren't that active, but would enjoy having their listening habit (that they themselves don't know they have) tapped onto. For instance, now and then it amazes me to discover that I actually like a certain singer or band quite a lot when I reflect at my own listening activity. And I didn't even know, or cared about, their name until that point. It wouldn't annoy me in the last, thus, if the singer/band were to discover me "before" I (consciously) "discovered" them (supposing I ever did).

The tricky part is doing this in a non-intrusive/non-creepy way. But if they could manage it, more power to them.

One Musician's Demand From Pandora: Mandatory Anal (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037101)

nice article, very interesting
http://www.transfer-private.com/charles-de-gaulle-airpport-transfer-paris-cdg-shuttle

Bandcamp Seems Like More Her Thing (4, Interesting)

eldavojohn (898314) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037115)

Oddly enough the first and only place I've heard of this artist is bandcamp [zoekeating.com] and I think she's helped it grow. She seems to be demanding Pandora put in all the nice things that Bandcamp has.

Bandcamp is not a radio streaming station but you can stream a lot of albums freely on it. Bandcamp [bandcamp.com] seems to solve a lot of these problems with it's pricing clearly stated [bandcamp.com]. I don't use it as a musician but I make a lot of music purchases there and this is how things work. If you want to get an album for free, the band has the option of asking at least for your e-mail address and zip code. That way they can geographically target you or let you know they have a new album on Bandcamp. On top of that I think the sites has a huge stats dashboard for artists -- even including the referral URLs from which your listeners are landing on your page (so if you have it hooked up to your band's page, you can differentiate that from someone who found it via pitchfork or something).

I've had really good experiences with bandcamp but their 'discover' methodologies still leave a lot to be desired [bandcamp.com] and I hope that someday they just turn it into a station that has a great front end that will allow you to see and purchase whatever is playing.

Of course, there's a lot of terrible music on bandcamp but I sort of enjoy the idea that it's open to all (as opposed to, say, Magnatune). There are famous artists that I already loved on Bandcamp [sufjan.com] and total nobodies I've come to adore [bandcamp.com].

Re:Bandcamp Seems Like More Her Thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037497)

Ahhhh... I get it now !! the purpose of the OP was so this shill for Bandcamp could be posted.... do you think you said the name enough times ? come on i am sure you could have inserted it at least another dozen times in there. :D

Re:Bandcamp Seems Like More Her Thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038293)

She's actually pretty big - I have three of her albums, and I don't use Pandora, Spotify, or bandcamp.

out of touch with fans (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037119)

There's a musician who's out of touch with her fans.

Re:out of touch with fans (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037977)

There's a musician who's out of touch with her fans.

that's whats she's bitching about. though she doesn't know if she as fans or not.

What about terrestial radio? (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037295)

Why aren't the artists pushing for royalties from terrestial radio? There is probably a lot more revenue to be gained from this.

Re:What about terrestial radio? (1)

asdbffg (1902686) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038267)

Artists already receive royalties for terrestrial radio. The metrics for tracking performances aren't very good, though.

Pandora's Response To This (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037427)

Yo, Yo Ma.

Spam (0)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037477)

Yes that is exactly what Pandora's customers want; spam spam spam and more span from musicians.

This reminds me of the joke: How do you make a cellist's car go faster?........ remove the pizza delivery sign.

Any service that gave a person like this my data would instantly lose my business.

I hope that Pandora not only ignores her completely but that someone educates her about how much data privacy is worth to people. Some fools give private data away for free but if she wants most people data she should be willing to pay big bucks for it and expect to be turned down by the vast majority.

ya'll are jumping to conclusions (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037495)

if you actually read her blog i don't see anywhere she demands anyones email address. it's all in response to IRFA, which is about setting royalty rates for internet radio. she puts forward a compromise by saying artists like her might prefer to be paid in some kind of data instead of the compulsory royalties required by law.

Website and Facebook (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037589)

She'll find that having an easy to find website with a tour calendar and a newsletter will help.
And of course a Facebook page where she'll see all her fans.

When it's marketer vs consumer, Fuck the marketers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037615)

If it's data about MY life. It's MY data.
And you can't have it to study, analyze, monetize, or use in any way unless i give YOU and only YOU specific permission to do so.

Opt out is bullshit. It's opt in or nothing. And i'm NOT going to opt in since lets be honest.
You're not going to give me anything that *I* want. Or even save me any money.
You are trying to gain something from me without giving me payment.

And to that i say FUCK YOU!

Does your company or business disagree?
Well then you should have no problem giving everyone access to all your businesses personal and financial data so we can do as we see fit with it.
We deserve to know everything that exists about your business right down to the smallest details. Above and beyond what is know about even public traded companies!

What? Fuck me? Yeah that's what i thought.
You hypocrites.

Sure, I'll sell you my data (0)

Arancaytar (966377) | about a year and a half ago | (#42037623)

For free content.

Zero problems with it.

If you want my money and my data? Fuck that.

Majors (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037669)

The Majors have a stake in a lot of the streaming services so why would they want transparency.

I think its a fair call by the artist. I'm after data to grow my business.

not too bright (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037701)

sounds intrinsically related to collecting user data without their consent or pushing them to provide it. Maybe I don't want musicians knowing where Iliveand what I'm doing, especially if such musicians are making money off my personal data.. and I'm not..NO DEAL

Without exception (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037711)

Why are younger female cellists always so attractive?

Re:Without exception (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038005)

It's all that time spent rubbing on a big wood instrument that is vibrating between her legs.

Translation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42037965)

How do I reach them? Do they know I'm performing nearby next month? How can I tell them I have a new album coming out?

Translation: Digital retailers owe me free marketing.

I disagree, but at the most the retailers should provide her web-page/twitter/facebook address. Like is already done with CDs and DVDs.

Analytics Isn't Cheap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038081)

She's assuming that you can just make analytics and it costs nothing. The problem is that this bitch knows nothing about technology. She thinks just because you can count the 'likes' on Facebook that she deserves any of that.

Analytics is business intelligence. It's valuable information that's difficult to get. And she's correct. Analytics can inform you to make decisions that will make you millions. But it's NOT a freebie. Consider stock data and Bloomberg terminals- to get the latest up to date stock information to inform your trades, you have to pay MILLIONS in fees. That's because that information is more valuable than gold. Getting together a programmer and business guys to draft and collect data isn't cheap. You don't deserve a part of the pie just because you puked out some content.

Consider this- there is NOWHERE she can go that she can get that data. It's on Pandora. That's it. They built a huge multimillion dollar company to collect this information, and they pay her contracted royalties for it. Why should she get it for free? If she wants data, then she'll have to pony up big money like the other companies that want it.

I actually like this (2)

Xacid (560407) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038245)

I've been an avid paid Pandora listener for a few years and would love to see them find a way to improve their services especially if it can make them more marketable and last longer. This can benefit both the consumer and the artist if done properly and I think Zoe Keating, incidentally whom I discovered on Pandora, has the right idea.

When I find an artist I REALLY enjoy the first thing I end up doing is finding more of their songs not on Pandora...but on youtube. Then if I like a good portion of their stuff I'll usually go hunt for their album, which I usually try to buy directly from the artist when possible, or I'm looking to see if they're ever playing anywhere near me.

It would also be neat if it could show a map/chart of artists based on what you've thumbs upped previously or sort by station or something while you're in a buying mode. One thing I couldn't understand is how Pandora didn't enter into the music sales business as that would have flowed nicely with their current business. Imagine having an "add to cart" for songs you really dig and being able to play those on demand within the Pandora interface? Or just revert back to full on radio mode like always. There's just so much potential for this service and it typically nails what I'm in the mood to listening to.

She's right about one thing (2)

asdbffg (1902686) | about a year and a half ago | (#42038305)

Part of what she's asking for isn't so bad, namely aggregate metrics or just general listening statistics. I've got some music on Pandora as well, and I can say that they make absolutely no information available about how many people are listening, how many listeners skip the song, how many listeners give the song a thumbs up or down, etc. Once the music goes in, the rest if a big mystery.

She loses me when she suggests that she should just magically be able to get her listeners' contact information without some sort of opt-in. As much as I would love an epic mailing list of anyone who has ever heard my work... yeah... no...

So pay them for it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42038641)

Pay them like you pay your agent to do the same thing.

Pay them like you pay your label to promote your work.

Or is this just a demand for being paid AND getting even more free stuff from the grabby classes of worthless entertainers?

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