Scientists Develop Sixty Day Bread 440
Hugh Pickens writes writes "BBC reports that scientists have developed a technique that can make bread stay mold-free for 60 days that could also be used with a wide range of foods including fresh turkey and many fruits and vegetables. At its laboratory on the campus of Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Don Stull of Microzap showed off the long, metallic microwave device that resembles an industrial production line. Originally designed to kill bacteria such as MRSA and salmonella, the researchers discovered it could kill the mold spores in bread in around 10 seconds. 'We treated a slice of bread in the device, we then checked the mold that was in that bread over time against a control,' says Stull. 'And at 60 days it had the same mold content as it had when it came out of the oven.' Food waste is a massive problem in most developed countries. In the US, figures released this year suggest that the average American family throws away 40% of the food they purchase — which adds up to $165 Billion annually. There is some concern that consumers might not take to bread that lasts for so long and Stull acknowledges it might be difficult to convince some people of the benefits. 'We'll have to get some consumer acceptance of that. Most people do it by feel and if you still have that quality feel they probably will accept it.'"
If you want bread from today... (Score:2, Interesting)
...you have to come back tomorrow.
I know how to do this (Score:2)
Just put the bread out in the hot sun .. it will dry out. Then 60 days later SLOWLY steam use a moderate steam setting for a 2 hours (not longer) .. it'll be like new.
OK I haven't tried it and just came up with the idea, but it sounds like it would work. F it.
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If you're going to put all that effort into steaming it, why not just bake fresh bread in 60 days instead?
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Just defrost the slices you want to consume in the microwave and they will be just as fresh as newly baked bread.
This raises the question: have you ever eaten freshly made bread?
Or, it raises the question: have you ever eaten defrosted bread?
Re:I know how to do this (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not really sure why I'm explaining all this as this is naught but common sense.
No, it's more like naught but bullshit. The proper way to store bread in the freezer is in a freezer bag that retains the moisture. Ice crystals form inside the back--that's moisture that's leaving the bread. You bring the bread out of the freezer and allow it to sit at room temperature in the bag until the crystals have disappeared, re-absorbing the water. Then you place it in a 350F degree oven for about 15 minutes to re-distribute the water.
Taken from an 80 year old man who has baked over six thousand different styles of bread and routinely freezes whole loaves, even if they're to be served in just a few days.
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That is particularly funny, since the type of treatment -- ultra-high temperature processing (or "UHT") -- that makes milk last longer than a few days is virtually non-existent in America, yet quite common in a number of European nations, including the Netherlands. Sure you didn't get the anecdote backwards there, ace?
Re:60 days! Thats nothing. (Score:4, Interesting)
anti-preservative yawping (Score:2)
I remember when several bread makers quit using preservatives over some FUD or other. It benefited the entire bread supply chain since the bread would spoil faster. I think most have started using them again.
I'd like to know if that destroys C. botulinum spores. (botulism)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001624/ [nih.gov]
I'm starting to grow and can food again due to cost. If that could help reduce or maintain food costs it would be welcome.
Re:anti-preservative yawping (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:anti-preservative yawping (Score:5, Informative)
C. botulinum _spores_ are ubiquitous, so there's no sense in trying to prevent those.
Err, you missed the crucial "can food" component of his post. I also can food. Not so much because of cost (I think your time has to be worth less than 50 cents/hr to break even) but because I apparently have weird taste in food. For example I love canned brandied apples, peach -n- rum sauce, bourbon cherries... hmm I detect a pattern there. Interesting how tasty food canned with booze is, and how you absolutely cannot buy it retail in the USA. Also for awhile I was making my own mustard for the technical challenge (the exact timing of the reaction is important to the heat level, and balancing/working around the bitterness is also pretty interesting). I enjoy the chemistry of the whole canning activity. Acidity, sugar levels, salt levels, pressure canning is 10x cooler than water bath canning, etc. Aside from novelty and taste, canning also saves time when done right. For example the immense prep, measurement, tasting and fine tuning, and especially cleanup time for my homemade peach barbecue sauce is nearly the same for one piece of chicken or 24 canned halfpints so I'm far better off making 24 times what I currently need and canning the rest for near instant use. In CS notation the overall system of food making scales WAY less than linear with volume.
Anyway the "ball book of canning" and/or the stuff from the USDA will save your life (literally) WRT canning. Granny recipes and stuff you read on the internet will just get you food poisoning or worse (yes, there is worse).
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Not so much because of cost (I think your time has to be worth less than 50 cents/hr to break even) but because I apparently have weird taste in food.
Uh.... I can food to save time... lots and lots of time... like, hundreds of hours a month. Do you have any clue how long it would take me to make oxtail stew if I had to do it from scratch every single time? I make at least 14 pints at once.
Fridges (Score:2)
So when are they going to build it into the fridge?
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That's a sensible reasoning. Even if it doesn't have cars in it.
Similar to UV Sterilizer Lights in Fish Tanks (Score:2)
Yeah! This means (Score:5, Funny)
Twinkies are back!
Preservation has it's downside (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Preservation has it's downside (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? Because most places here have options on the source of the tomatos, or bread.
You want bread baked today, you buy the one that says "baked today".
If people are willing to buy 30 day old bread, it's not really the fault of corporations, there are plenty of independent bakeries that could cater to your needs.
See the organic food supply for the same effect in action. Or a local farmers market. etc
Re:Preservation has it's downside (Score:4, Interesting)
Really? Because most places here have options on the source of the tomatos, or bread.
I live in London and I am concerned about what happens to food quality when large supermarkets use certain food products as "loss leaders" until there are no alternatives in the region other than gourmet/specialty items that I really can't afford.
Re:Preservation has it's downside (Score:4, Insightful)
If people are willing to buy 30 day old bread, it's not really the fault of corporations, there are plenty of independent bakeries that could cater to your needs.
This is a load of poppycock. It is the fault of corporations, and here's why. Food used to be grown in a more distributed fashion. Megacorporations have used a variety of techniques both fair and foul to drive small farmers out of business. They buy up their farms and then they use them to produce (now-)GMO bulk crops that are used to produce the processed foods which are the only thing sold in supermarkets, i.e. by corporations. And supermarkets have used means both foul and fair to drive small independent markets which carried superior foodstuffs out of business. Now the landscape is littered with Fauxganic outlets like Whole Foods (aka "Whole Paycheck") and there is no quality local food available to most people. Because of economies of scale, you can buy a loaf of zero-nutrtitional-value "wheat" bread for a dollar, but a loaf of local handmade bread will typically cost you around five, and it doesn't make as many slices either.
See the organic food supply for the same effect in action. Or a local farmers market. etc
It's funny that you mention farmer's markets, because they used to be much more prevalent before the rise of the corporate grocery chain. I've actually bought produce grown in my place of residence, first Santa Cruz and now Lake county, which was shipped out of the county, packed, sent to a Safeway shipping plant, and brought back to my local Safeway store. And since the food growers get bought up by megacorporations, they refuse to sell locally. So in fact, it really is the fault of corporations who have dismantled our ability to purchase quality food at a fair price, and they did it deliberately to force us to buy from them.
The best way to fight back is to make more of your own food. Don't buy the bread from Safeway or your local baker. Bake it yourself. It doesn't take very long. Do this for enough of what you eat, and you'll save enough money to wind up keeping the same amount of money while working less hours, so you have more time to enjoy your food.
I also shop at Grocery Outlet often. It's a bit touch-and-go, but the way it works is that they sell mostly pullbacks from other stores. Our only salvation, if you can call it that, is that supermarkets drove their competition out of business by having larger selection and "lower prices" (though on inferior goods, the customer is typically not well-educated about food) but retail stores have to fill all their space or they look empty, and cause negative perception. This becomes a limiting factor when food items become too expensive for the majority to purchase, which has been happening more and more of late. The result for me is high quality food items with a relatively short expiration date, much of which has never actually proceeded past the point of cold storage before it was resold to grocery outlet due to another limiting factor of large, corporate retail outlets: inflexibility in stock.
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nutricianal => nutritional
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nutricianal => nutritional
Well, that's better than becoming an Illinois Naz, Neo-Nazi, Soup Nai, or Original Flavor Nazi.
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Here in the UK, bread already is made centrally using the ghastly Chorleywood Process [wikipedia.org]. As a consequence our bread is almost universally tasteless and unpleasant - even many of the 'artisan' bakeries have no idea how to make decent bread. Its depressing to see how good bread can be when I take trips to see family/work in continental Europe.
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And then you realize that if they did do this and the bread was terrible tasting that nobody would stand for it and fork off to another store that isn't awful tasting.
Have you been to a certain mass-market burger chain lately? It tastes like greasy crap. The one here is the least tasty burger offering around where I live (because there's a couple of pubs, a handful of little restaurants and a burger truck, all selling delightful burgers), but they're also the cheapest, fastest and have the largest profit margin to afford mass advertising.
People are (for the most part) cheap and stupid. Consequently the mass-market junk shop does the most trade even though a far superior
Microwaved bread? (Score:2)
It can still technically be considered organic. Finally a solution to buying certified organic sandwich bread and having it go bad after 2 days.
Staleness? (Score:3)
French toast (Score:3)
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You can prepare for a diet of stale bread by munching on hardtack. [wikipedia.org]
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In Germany, I buy fresh bread daily ... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In Germany, I buy fresh bread daily ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I miss BrÃtchen. Particularly with a Rindswurst and slathered in mustard.
Or with Nutella and coffee for breakfast.
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You make it sound as if possessing fresh mass-produced bread suddenly makes it any less insipid. It doesn't. Tasteless bread is still tasteless bread regardless how fresh it is. I never liked bread until the first time I baked my own. Even the fresh bread from supermarket bakeries is terrible. The attention to detail is absent and the ingredients and process are inferior to reduce expenses. Mass production of food just never ends well in general. The vegetables I eat now neither taste as good as thos
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For the moment at least, the only Americans still eating Wonder Bread are those who had the foresight to stock up and freeze it [wikipedia.org].
Figure out how to use it on a house (Score:2)
Or... (Score:4, Insightful)
No thanks. (Score:2)
I like my bread freshly baked either from my local baker (first choice) or from my trusty bread machine. I have no interest in old, crappy preservative riddled, chemical crap in my food thank you very much. Maybe useful for astronauts or arctic explorers etc. but this is exactly the sort of thing that is simply not needed.
Not to mention the fact that a bit of bread mould is good for you !
Freeze it (Score:3)
I buy 1/2 sized loaves and freeze them, these loaves are sold in a breathable wrapping. I take them out a few hours before I need them (or pop in the microwave if I am in a rush). I don't buy bread that is wrapped up in a plastic bag - such bread is generally tasteless mush.
What? Just Ask McDonalds! (Score:3, Informative)
What's the big deal here?
McDonalds has figured out how to make an entire hamburger, including the bun, last for 20 years [youtube.com] without molding.
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Why would they do that when the burgers are prepared frozen and cooked on the spot?
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NEWSFLASH: PRESERVING BREAD (Score:2)
Bread actually can be frozen and taken out slice by slice when required. It remains quite fresh if it's wrapped and sealed. An amazing piece of technology called a "Freezer" can do this for you at minimal expense.
Now, if it says fresh after sixty days - then you have a breakthrough. Bread without mould after sixty days could be re-used as quite an effective mallet for woodwork.
Yum, stale bread... (Score:2)
If you store bread sensibly it goes stale long before it spoils?
"Quality feel"? (Score:2)
Considering that nearly all commercially mass-produced bread is insipid uninviting junk made with homogenous inferior ingredients and yet consumers still buy it by the truckload, I don't think "quality feel" will be an issue at all. People who aren't super-tasters won't even notice the difference, if they're willing to eat the junk that is mass-produced now.
Evolution (Score:2)
If the process kills all mold spores and this is repeated again and again, doesn't that imply that if this becomes widespread practice that nature will develop super mold that can survive this process?
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:5, Insightful)
Quick heads up - they put the ingredients on the side of the bag.
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Quick heads up - they put the ingredients on the side of the bag.
If you are buying your bread in a bag, you are doing it wrong.
Best tasting bread, in my opinion, is bought in bakery and has 4 ingredients: flour, yeast, salt and water.
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See my answer to a similar comment - I'm not commenting on the quality of bagged bread. FWIW I buy fresh-baked daily from the local bakery when possible, but I do occasionally use the bagged stuff.
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That's interesting. I go to my local bakery and they put my fresh bread in a bag. Am I doing it wrong?
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:4, Funny)
Note to mods - I certainly wasn't aiming for Insightful/Interesting/Informative :)
More a sort of "+1 stating the bleeding obvious"
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Please note - I make no comment on the quality of bagged vs home-baked bread - merely that our "suspicious" consumer can quite easily see what goes in to bagged bread to make it last.
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm a chemist. I also bake bread.
The volume of a gas is the area that it occupies, which is the volume of the container it fills at equilibrium.
So, both by volume and mass bread is 100% chemicals.
However, when I make bread I use chemicals like salt, water, flour, and yeast. The last two are mixtures (well, so are the first two, but even kitchen grade salt and water are reasonably pure).
And yes, bread composed of only those ingredients will only last about a day. Throw in butter or milk and it will last a
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Well, I'm no expert either but I agree this is all just silly semantics. What was the point again?
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and have you seen how much of that is chemicals? well over 90% of it.
10% is not material? I thought bread was 100% chemicals, like everything else. If you have something which is not 100% chemical, you may be on track to winning 1 million GBP [rsc.org]
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:4, Funny)
I think what he means is that 10% of bread is Dark Matter
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You forgot Poland, I mean, sourdough.
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:5, Insightful)
100% of everything is chemicals. But if you're insinuating that 90% of what's in bread is chemically altered or produced by some artificial means, you're insane, It's obviously mostly flower. Any preservatives they put into it are salts of one form or another. And sometimes they put high fructose corn syrup in it, which keeps it seeming fresh while lowering the water activity. But there's no need to speculate about any of this, because the ingredients are listed on the label.
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Well, everything we put into our bodies is a chemical, even O2 and H2O.
The question is, how harmful are these chemicals? The flour is actually probably the most harmful ingredient in the bread. Our digestive tract isn't really equipped to process any kind of wheat unlike most herbivores (which we are NOT, in spite of what vegetarians/vegans/peta tells you) and it does have a substance that is rather toxic to our intestines - gluten (which by the way, they almost always list as a separate ingredient, even th
Wtf? (Score:5, Insightful)
Newflash numbnuts - cholesterol is a vital part of our biochemistry. Without it cell membranes would fall apart. The problem comes when its eaten in excess. But you could say that about anything - salt, sugar, protein, carbs, even water.
AFWIW a high protein low carb diet is actually quite healthy. Protein doesn't give you heart problems OR make you fat. Ask any athlete. Though if you over indulge over a long period of time it can give you kidney issues. And bad breath.
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:5, Informative)
Okay, in the spirit of your comment:
What the freak is Google for?
Here's what you get when you lookup "hovis bread ingredients" (Hovis is the most popular brand in the UK and sadly plain white bread is still the most popular loaf): http://www.hovisbakery.co.uk/our-range/soft-white/soft-white [hovisbakery.co.uk]
On that page it lists the ingredients (the same as it does on the bag) as follows:
Wheat Flour (milled from 100% British Wheat), Water, Yeast, Salt, Soya Flour, Fermented Wheat Flour, Vegetable Fat, Emulsifiers: E472e, E471 (made from Vegetable Oils); Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C).
Starting from the end, I think your "dough conditioner" is out "flour treatment agent". Even some home bakers use Vitamin C in their breadmaking.
So I do some more Googling (try it, you'll like it) and discover that an 800g loaf typically has about 500g of flour and 7g of yeast and may be up to 45% water - we're running out of room for the "chemicals" now.
Onwards:
Vegetable fat - fat extracted from vegetables. Ha. Binding agent, also controls the gluten development to avoid over-rising.
Emulsifiers (binding agents, prevent the separation of ingredients, improve the texture). See http://www.laleva.cc/food/enumbers/E471-480.html [laleva.cc] for the specific ones used by Hovis.
Now, was that so difficult? Use your loaf, as we might say in Britain. Don't be "suspicious" of a product, investigate. You might not like what you find, but at least you'll know and your mind can be put to rest.
And yes, as I mention in another comment, I was being "funny" - I just have a hard time when people have the means to discover information, but instead choose to sit there and develop preconceptions.
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(Personally, I can't stand plain white bread. It has no taste or texture. I prefer a proper whole wheat.)
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Most up-to-date figures I could find for the UK suggest that 76% of bread consumed is white, which given the amount of health advice we're exposed to is a little terrifying.
I like wb for toast (something quite comforting to me - I think it harks back to the simpler times of my childhood :) ), wholemeal/granary/wholewheat/malted whatever for use in sandwiches etc.
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:4, Informative)
Whole wheat flour, water, wheat gluten, high fructose corn syrup, contains 2% of less of: soybean oil, salt, molasses, yeast, mono and diglycerides, exthoxylated mono and diglycerides, dough conditioners (sodium stearoyl lactylate, calcium iodate, calcium dioxide), datem, calcium sulfate, vinegar, yeast nutrient (ammonium sulfate), extracts of malted barley and corn, dicalcium phosphate, diammonium phosphate, calcium propionate (to retain freshness).
I don't know what half of that crap is.
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Nowhere in the article does it say that the bread never went stale.
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Bread goes stale from losing its moisture. If you keep it sealed in plastic it will last longer. There might be some viscous ingredients (e.g. HFCS) that hold in some of the moisture better, but I really doubt that it is anything as arcane as you'd otherwise think.
One trick to "un-stale" bread is to put it next to a fruit that is porous and has high water content, e.g. a strawberry or a banana, and seal both in plastic wrap. It'll add a slightly fruity flavor as well as make the bread moist again because th
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the answer is the amount of fat that is added. Anyone claiming their bread lasts over 2 days and is still edible either has no taste or simply adds some form of fat into the dough. Cheap UK bread always lasted for a month as was still not stale.
Re:Real bread goes stale after 1 day (Score:4, Informative)
What could they be possibly putting in there that lets it last ten days, let alone sixty?
Anti-staling agents used in bread are fatty acids as monoglyceride and diglyceride and wheat gluten and enzymes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staling#Countermeasures [wikipedia.org]
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They generally use a humidity preserving polymeric barrier.
We call them plastic bags, try one for your homemade bread and watch as it magically lasts more than two days
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Rye flour isn't normal. It barely has any gluten!
But, normal homemade bread with just water, salt, wholewheat flour and sourdough starter will stay fresh for a week or so.
Long rising periods are key. The yeast "farms" itself a probiotic environment which just happens to improve the keeping qualities of bread, and improve the digestibility of wheat.
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It's more like a medical supplement preparation than actual food. Extremely purified starch. Without any of the essential B vitamins and fibers that are required to digest starch without getting sick, fat and stupid. (Which is also true for all white "bread".)
Not "can"... You *have* to eat this with a wide range of fresh foods. Otherwise it's outright dangerous for your health.
If you eat this thinking it's food, have fun with your diseases when you get old... (Please don't. I don't wish suffering upon anyone.)
Also, except in extreme situations, why would you need bread to last that long anyway? A normal bread (not a starch sponge) lasts a couple of days at room temperature, even without cooling. A normal 500g bread is eaten in 2 days. 3-4, if you bought a 1000g one for you alone, which is a stupid mistake that won't happen again. And the bakery has fresh bread every day. Even Sundays. They bake about as much as is bought... and leftovers go to the food bank to feed the poor. Nothing is wasted.
So this is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
Source: Medical knowledge about nutrition that is well-known since the 60s, but apparently hasn't reached bread makers and consumers yet. And basic damn common sense.
Happy to hear that you live near a bakery and can go to the shop every couple of days, but not all the rest of the world[1] lives that way. The problem does exist, but maybe this isn't quite the solution.
I live in a household that is essentially gluten free, and all the commercial baked gluten free breads that I've found are pretty horrible (except for one fruit loaf which is only edible because it's put in the toaster first and smothered with butter), so I normally make it from a pre-packaged bread mix. Th
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It's strange, I must be in some kind of culture jam, but my family, and everyone I know (IRL) steers clear of whitebread. We all eat 9 or 7 grain bread (the wholegrain stuff). I don't really know why. I grew up with it, and can't even stand the taste of whitebread. It's like there's nothing in it.
We aren't Amish or anything. I think there might have been some literature the family and friends read many years ago that must have made them jump the whitebread ship.
There are bakeries, and we go there for non-sa
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It's been part of a culture shift in the US away from plain white bread over the past 10-20 years. Many people associate PWB with trailer-trash living and prefer to appear more upscale by buying the multi-grain
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Re:this is great news (Score:5, Informative)
Re:this is great news (Score:5, Informative)
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Of course if you go over 7 seconds you are correct. Perhaps your microwave is too powerful. Try 2-4 seconds. Obviously YMMV.
Re:this is great news (Score:4, Informative)
You can do this already... make your bread with honey instead of sugar. Bread made with honey will outlast sugar based breads 3:1 in time before mold sets in.
Problem is most bread companies dont want to do that, it reduces the CEO's pay by reducing profits.
Re:this is great news (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem is most bread companies dont want to do that, it reduces the CEO's pay by reducing profits.
That's only how straw man capitalism works, not real world capitalism. In real world capitalism if bread made with honey were actually a superior product then although the CEO of an entrenched bread company might not want to produce it a CEO of an upstart would realize she could raise her pay by producing and selling it thus gaining market share, enriching her investors and leaving the entrenched bread company in the dust.
Of course, in "capitalism" as practiced by the US right now the entrenched bread company would get the government to pass some regulation that seemed reasonable but that was actually designed to hamper the competition. Perhaps new labeling or packaging requirements that, due to scaling effects, would impose much higher costs per unit on small producers.
Re:this is great news (Score:4, Insightful)
and then
So if the US government practices an example of "straw man capitalism" in the real world, does that not make it "real world capitalism?".
The problem is that your academic version of capitalism has no baring on the real world. In the real world, the CEO would collude and conspire to increase profits at the expense of everything else, including and not limited to his shareholders and the future of the company. Because in capitalist america, short term profits drive YOU!
Re:this is great news (Score:4, Interesting)
Ok, keep eating that terrible bread for $0.05 cheaper because you think the invisible hand is always right.
Another straw man about Capitalism, the one about how it's only price that matters. Quality and other factors are integral to Capitalism. If your bread is of such quality that the other bread seems "terrible" in comparison and yours only cost $.05 more (in 2012 US dollars) then your bread will sell very well. The exception would be commoditized products wherein price is the prime determinant. But to be commoditized the quality has to be indistinguishable so your example doesn't work there either.
More importantly, however, is that the only alternative yet presented to "the invisible hand" is some bureaucrat(s) deciding for us. If I prefer to eat the terrible bread and spend the saved money on something else who's this guy to tell me I should prefer the other bread? Don't get me wrong, Capitalism stinks. It just stinks less than every other system implemented to date.
Re:this is great news (Score:5, Insightful)
For most people just looking for an excuse to eat butter (toast) or something to hold together a sandwich, bread IS a commodity.
While I suspect the percentage of true bread lovers on /. is perhaps higher than average since we're nerds and appreciate quality, the average man does not think twice about grabbing a loaf off the supermarket shelf. The mere situation of grabbing bread off the shelf compared to from a bonafide bakery says a lot about the state of bread in today's society.
Re:this is great news (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:this is great news (Score:5, Informative)
The sugars are generally used when proofing the yeast, and that is usually only one or two teaspoons. You basically are giving it glucose to start making CO2. The yeast can get that from the flour, however it takes longer for the dough to rise. If you're producing bread at a bakery then you have access to a proofing oven, sugar is less important in that case, however it still is used to give white bread a more golden colour. Yes, I once worked at a bakery.
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Re:this is great news (Score:5, Informative)
The hardening of bread is actually caused by moisture in the air crystallizing the starches in the bread. If you could build a breadbox that would keep humidity very low, you could probably keep your bread good for a long time.
However, bread goes stale faster in the refrigerator because it speeds up the process of starch crystallization, so if you could store it outside of the refrigerator without mold spores developing, you have extended the life of your bread by quite a bit.
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i think the whole "are microwaves dangerous" thing was settled with the whole mobile phone thing.
Re:this is great news - not really (Score:4, Funny)
Re:5 years old swiss roll (Score:4, Interesting)
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