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Brewing Storm: Stealth, ISPs And Copyright

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the as-if-you-didn't-know dept.

Censorship 249

Handulschteim writes: "As if nobody could have guessed, the Internet community has continued to circumvent the entertainment industry. According to this Reuters article, HavenCo has joined the action. It might be great marketing for them. But it might also be the beginning of the end if they attract the ire of their closest neighbor and its American buddies." (ruebarb contributes a link to the same story featured on MSNBC.) Since ISPs are going to face increasing pressure from the various 4-letter acronyms, it seems like the obvious next step for the the entertainment factories to lobby for would be a ban on all encrypted traffic for which no key is in escrow for easy policing.

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249 comments

Honest officer! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255117)

That's just SETI@home data blocks, really! uhhhhh, digitized noise from my AM radio?

I guess there's always stenography! Of course, you still have the SIGINT that party A is sending data to party B...

Re:Where to escrow? Who to trust? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255118)

Why is it not a problem for "domestic traffic"? Who do you trust - absolutely no-one!

Re:A glass house for the media moguls. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255119)

The RIAA already got busted for price fixing recently. I wonder what other shit they're up to...

Re:Police state ahead? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255120)

Ever notice that the black community is the only segment of america patriotic enough to riot and tear shit up until the politicians and judges get a clue. They have done this many times, fighting for the rights they feel strongly about. Nobody else has done anything since the civil war.

MODERATOR ACCESS ANYONE?? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255121)

I have been a moderator 3 times this week. I have noticed that many comments are getting over moderated. What is wrong with the system, anyone have any insight?????????

Re:All Your Sealand Base... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255122)

I have already addressed this issue to people over at sealand, and even offered them some advice. Host lots and lots of good content cheaply as well, and big companies will buy server space their because of their big nice multiple connections. Then, there would be reason not to shut it down. Mix good with the bad.

Re:Ask a stupid question... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255123)

Morlocks eat Eloi. Weak attempt at a troll... And if you think I'm talking about x-men, shouldn't your high school's filtering software have kept you from slashdot? Or for that matter from anything written by Huxley?

Re:Again with the backdoors (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255128)

In order words, Those Of the Four Letter Acronym are trying to ram their own policies forcefully up our own collective "back door".

I say :P to the lot of them.

Re:Worry, worry a lot (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255129)

Japan might be free some day, but right now it's just less expensive than it used to be.

no (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255130)

You see, a circle is defined as the set of all points lying in a two-dimensional plane which are equidistant from a single point, not the set of all points lying in a two-dimensional plane less than or equal to the radius r. Assuming the platform was not red to begin with, that sufficient slop is allowed to lay down non-infintesmally small drops of paint, that the surface is effectively two-dimensional, and that the concentric circles all have the same center, the parent poster's comment is sufficient to describe the requisite image for the humourous effect.

In summary: you are the diet coke of pedants - just one calorie, not pedantic enough.

- pedant nazi moderator
"no pedant for you!"

Ask a stupid question... (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#255131)

>What will happen to a slave-based economy when robots replace everybody,
>i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless?

Isn't it obvious? A relatively small number of individuals, I'm guessing at less than 25,000, will own everything. Those that own nothing, will have no tools to build anything that they might sell, nothing to build that someone might buy, etc etc. Some will be kept around as servants, but only for the power/humiliation of it, because machines will be so much more efficient. Others as prostitutes. Some as pets, even. Sooner or later, this will lead to genocide on a massive scale, but my guess is that will take more than a few generations. The last of the slaves might have a few hundred years, to ponder the question that you asked.

Capitalism is a closed system, and eventually, it must devolve into complete stagnation. If humans weren't the technological animals that they are, the time it would take might be so long as to seem eternal, but at this rate, I expect to see it in my lifetime.

Sealand Not UK (1)

Wyatt Earp (1029) | more than 12 years ago | (#255136)

Since Sealand "isn't UK property" that's why the UK would use the Royal Marines or SAS or Royal Navy instead of Police.

Personally, I don't think a metal platform built by the UK government in the Second World War can NOT be the property of the UK, or be an independant nation-state...but that's not the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is...Sealand...what's to stop the UK government from taking them out by force? Nothing. The Royal Marines or SAS could go in there, arrest every last squatter and there is NOTHING that any other goverment could do or say about it. Well people might pipe up and whine. But Sealand isn't going to get any protection from anyone. And with the increasing Federalization of Europe...Sealand's chances are slipping away. French, Dutch...whatever links to the Internet will become irrelevant.

Re:It's not going to happen........... (5)

isaac (2852) | more than 12 years ago | (#255141)

If the very influencial LEA and Intel agencies failed to convince the US legislature / ANSI using the Four Horsemen argument (e.g. that nuclear terrorists, child pornographers, money launderers, and drug dealers, would flourish if crypto remained freely available) then what makes you think RIAA / MPAA can succeed by persuading congress with the argument that the latest movies are being copied illegaly?

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies don't have lobbying budgets, and don't make campaign contributions, where the sole purpose of "industry associations" like the MPAA and RIAA is to collectively represent the cartels' interests in politics. Also, while cops show up on the news occasionally, the ??AA member companies *are* the news (see ABCDisney, AOLTimeWarner (CNN), CBS/Viacom, etc.). No politician is willing to trash the media cartels, as long as they're dependent on them to get elected/stay in office.

If the collective tech/electronics industries weren't so cowed by the ??AA's political muscle (and deathgrip on the media), they would have kicked big media to the curb as soon as they realized that more dollars were spent on CD-R/RW drives and media last year, alone, than the entire MPAA grossed at the box office, and that unlike the MPAA, CD/DVD-R/RW sales are still growing to the tune of 10-25%/year.

-Isaac

Re:Worry, worry a lot (5)

Squeeze Truck (2971) | more than 12 years ago | (#255144)

No, ISP's don't want to go to court. ISP's also don't want to go out of business. If all file sharing were stopped at the ISP level, people would find new ISP's -- one's that maybe "didn't have the resources" to go after every little violation.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about any of this. I live in Japan -- what you might call a "free" country.

Re:Worry, worry a lot (2)

cdipierr (4045) | more than 12 years ago | (#255148)

Acttually, more worrying than this is that, let's say you get kicked off a small mom & pop ISP because they think you were trading something you weren't. To use your example, let's say you were sending home movies to your grandparents, but they kicked you anyway.

Who's really left in the ISP business? Right now it's boiling down to AOL/TW and a bunch of large phone companies. Eventually those who are providing you access will be those who want to stop you from doing anything with their content, so even though they have the 'will' to fight, they're obviously not going to fight themselves.

So, hold on to your small ISP for as long as possible, but eventually all content will be megacorp controlled.

HavenCo Update from Ryan Lackey (5)

rdl (4744) | more than 12 years ago | (#255149)

Just to let everyone know how things are going, since I'm sure people will ask:

HavenCo has been doing pretty well recently -- the dotcom funding crisis means we're getting a lot more resumes, although we're not actively hiring.
We're pretty much breakeven now, which is quite a relief given the current funding environment.

We're focusing on a few key markets:

* financial information and services (payment systems, stock information, etc.)

* gaming (aka gambling)

* outsourced email/IM/file servers, subpoena proof

* reseller/VAR/OEM packages -- (ISPs that want to move certain clients offshore, ASPs, etc.)

AFAIK fairtunes and other music services are still underway, but HavenCo itself isn't that actively involved in them. While I'm sure we can weather any storm caused by hosting an opennap server or other controversial information, it is simply better business for us to go after higher-paying, zero-hassle, high value financial and gaming servers.

I apologize for not updating the website -- we've been very busy, and I have a new site with lots of photos and everyone else sitting in cvs, and at a staging URL, but it's not live yet. Hopefully soon, but unlike a lot of companies now on fuckedcompany, we're spending more time on actually selling products and supporting customers than on flashy websites...

We have a pretty good referral program now, which hasn't been publicized or put back on the old website -- bring us a customer, and when they pay their sixth month's colo fee, you get it.

I also got some netra X1's, and would like to host more of them -- we're discounting them substantially, since they're so easy to host, and people run solaris, netbsd, or sparclinux on them, rather than windows, saving us a bunch of hassle. We're charging about USD 6000/year to host on an X1 with minimal bandwidth, additional bandwidth to be purchased separately, vs. about USD 1500/month for a 1U or 2U intel/etc. type server with
much more bandwidth.

sales@havenco.com has info, of course. Buy servers, save money in regulatory and tax issues, and enable me to buy better food for Sealanders, and maybe a sushi chef.

It's pretty obvious where we stand on free speech, privacy, copyright, etc. issues, but unfortunately we have a duty to shareholders, and the "donate service to all sorts of cool free projects, bring a bunch of controversy, earn the hatred of the established media industry, etc." is just not good business practice for HavenCo, regardless of what the Sealand Government wants to do. They are from a pirate radio background, after all!

Interesting but fairly random stuff:

I was actually speaking at the Jupiter Plug-In Europe conference with Aram, the analyst quoted in that piece -- he's a really interesting guy who taught me things about Napster I didn't know! I also met Bruce Ward of NetPD, who turns out to be much cooler in person than one would expect -- I totally respect his/NetPD's technical competence, and if anyone needs to track down child pornography or other illegal use of their own network, I'd definitely recommend NetPD. After meeting a bunch of music industry people, ranging from lawyers to artists (Howie B. even gave me his new unreleased album, which I promptly mp3'd and put on my rio...it's *excellent*, and speaking of rio, the CEO of Sonicblue was there, and everyone standing around the table with him pulled out different generations of rio!). Barcelona, by the way, kicks ass -- all the goodness of France and of Spain, combined. I saw a yacht in the bay which was bigger than Sealand!

I was in San Francisco for RSA -- I'll be in Vegas for BlackHat and Defcon, but not much other than some events in Europe before then. Alas, 13 hour plane trips kind of suck. I had sushi just about every day. It was good. I was also on techtv, which people may have seen. Makeup artists are good at making ultra-pale geeks look suntanned.

I'm working on some software and papers, will probably set up a personal havenco page to post them. So much to do, so little time.

Re:HavenCo Update from Ryan Lackey (5)

rdl (4744) | more than 12 years ago | (#255150)

Mmm, trolls. (ignoring the "do not feed the troll" sign)

I dropped out to start a company in Anguilla: it was a simple financial issue, $30k out of my own pocket per year (no financial aid, no help from parents) vs. working on cool tech in the Caribbean, learning more every day than one would learn in a semester at university, and actually doing something meaningful for humanity and individual liberty.

Simple choice :)

I would have a *very* hard time justifying college if I were interested in 1) changing the world 2) computer practice, vs. theory. Aside from a few cryptography courses and advanced math courses, the most important aspect of university was meeting people and making contacts in industry; a lot of which can be done just as easily independently on the net.

Re:All Your Sealand Base... (2)

Akira1 (5566) | more than 12 years ago | (#255153)

The problem with that is that they are a soveriegn nation. So effectively, the waters immediatly around/under them are not in fact international waters, but SeaHaven waters. You can't just go around blowing stuff up on the property of other nations. Now, on the other hand, what are they going to do about it. It would merely risk an international outcry, which I'm imagining would be fairly weak anyways.

except not. (5)

Malachite (8328) | more than 12 years ago | (#255157)

To quote the oft-used cliche, The Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. However, the truth in that statement comes from the inherent chaos and lack of central control, not from laws protecting speech.

P2P software such as OpenNAP will survive, but not because of Sealand. When Sealand opens a napster server the RIAA will send them a polite letter asking them to turn if off. They will not comply. Then the RIAA will send a similar letter to Sealand's ISP's - and Sealand will find themselves disconnected. ISP's are businesses and their duty is to increase shareholder value, not to protect free speech. (hint: fighting the RIAA in court doesn't increase shareholder value)

Now, as I was saying, OpenNAP will survive. Think about how long it takes someone to configure an OpenNAP server and how long it takes the RIAA to litigate one out of existance. Perhaps the next linux worm's payload will be that it assembles an OpenNAP server network, who knows...

As for encryption regulations, timothy's comment is sensationalist crap. Will politicians continue to outlaw things like strong encryption in order to save the children or something? Yes. Will the courts throw out the worst of them? Yes. Will it make any significant impact on the real world? No. In fact, I have a feeling that if they outlawed encryption actual use of it would increase.

Shift from recording model to performance model (5)

LL (20038) | more than 12 years ago | (#255164)

What is driving this change is the shrinking cost of storage, and subsequent improvement in bandwidth, both of which significantly reduces search costs. Traditionally in any media enterprise it was economical to archive all the masters and intermediate processing steps internally. Given the 90 years + life of author of artistic works, it made sense for companies to recycle old recordings and push recompilations rather than going through the hassle of actually supporting existing artists. The internet makes this store and forward model (record and broadcast for mass media) less attractive as compared with a publish and subscribe model. Unfortunately many businesses are in incredible debt due to buying up large content houses and they are seeing the value (and thus shareholder support) erode due to this fundamental shift in the economic landscape (P2P matcheses personal tastes better than radio). So Caute-like they are busily erecting legal sandcastles and counter-flooding the trenches in the hope that their exclusive hold (and subsequent control) on the store and fetch paradigm can be retained.

However, those people with a half-a-clue are realising that alternative distribution models exists as software moves the relative power back to the artists and performers away from promoters and managers (unless they consolidate [salon.com] their distirbution channels and demand payola aka gateway fees). So what is likely to happen? I nthe long run you'll probably see more variety and different intermediatories but in the short term, its likely to be a scorched earth policy with ISPs being in the front line trenches squeezed between content holders (who want to pass the cost of enforcement onto someone else ... e.g. public law) and communications infrastructure providers who want to extract every last cent from providing bandwidth. In short the mom and pop UUCP and message boards are going to disappear as they don't have the intellectual or financial firepower to survive the coming firestorm (MS .NET initiative notwithstanding).

Note that this is not new. Whenever a scarce resource becomes cheap, whoever's interest buildt on faulty assumptions starts screaming. For example, when radio stations were limited in NZ several decades ago, some entrepreneurs put raio masts on a ship outside the nautical exclusion zones and beamed "pirate" broadcsts inland. The internet is even easier as the infrastructure is outside the immediate juristiction and you cannot restrict people moving around except through controlling their access software (cough*AOL-AIM*cough).

Maybe, just maybe, companies will actually support grass-roots artistic development instead of flogging over-hyped teenage boppers or overpriced dead rockers. On the other hand, cynics would note that money talks, bullshit walks.

LL

Re:All Your Sealand Base... (4)

Flounder (42112) | more than 12 years ago | (#255172)

Is it not obvious to nearly everybody that cutting HavenCo off from the rest of the net would be a very easy thing to accomplish, if the US and/or UK cared enough to do so?

I read that HavenCo has multiple redundant connections to three or four separate companies in separate countries. I know at least France and Belgium have connections to Sealand. There's probably also a redundant satellite connection.

Worry, worry a lot (5)

Thalia (42305) | more than 12 years ago | (#255174)

The problem is that ISP's don't want to go to court. They can be threatened by the MPAA, and they're likely to cave, because if they don't, they'll end up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorney fees. And most of them can't afford to do that.

But the truly odd part of the story is that it says that ExciteAtHome has responded by sending e-mails telling Gnutella users their services will be terminated within 24 hours if their alleged movie sharing continues. Now, how "alleged movie sharing" continues is beyond me. How do they know that folks are sharing copyrighted movies? Maybe they're sending each other something else that requires large files. Maybe it's home movies.

There really isn't a business reason for the ISP to protect the user. After all, they don't have a time-based contract. The user can't sue the ISP (I think) for terminating them illegally, unless the ISP refuses to return any prepaid moneys or deposits.

Review your ISP contract. I bet it allows your ISP to terminate you "at will." But if it doesn't, the subscriber who hasn't been using it for illegal stuff and is terminated should sue. A few lawsuits like that, and ISPs will think twice about just kicking users off based on a nasty-gram from the MPAA or RIAA.

Thalia

OT: Re:In other news... (1)

Kool Moe (43724) | more than 12 years ago | (#255175)

Wouldn't that just make lots of big red dots? Don't alternating concentric circles of white have to be used as well?
Or maybe big red dots is what you meant...dot-com and all that?
;)
KM

Re:Where to escrow? Who to trust? (4)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#255177)

The first thing that pops into my head when the idea of key escrow is who do you trust to escrow keys and where do you keep them?

Ponderous Microsoft PR Machine Moves Into Action...

"Why Microsoft, of course! It's what customers want! Millions of people round the world already trust us with their data, storing their data in our proprietary but standards-loving formats (heck, even KOffice will import it!), on our proprietary but interoperable (no, I did NOT say 'inoperable'!) OSs! We are customer-focused. We LOVE our customers! It's a veritable love-fest here in Redmond!"

Whoops, sorry, I'm a bit too close to Redmond to pass up a rant opportunity. I look out the window of my office, and see a foul dark cloud hanging over Mordor, er, Redmond; I get chills of fear.
--

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (5)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 12 years ago | (#255178)

Intellectual property laws exist only because capitalism is a slavery system. Our livelihood depends on working for others so we can pay our taxes. The reason that we have to work for others is that 99% of people have been deprived of an inheritance in the land. Income property is owned by a few and the government. The others are slaves. Artists and inventors depend on their work to make a living. Can we blame them? With the exception of a few, we all do because we are all slaves and we are all disenfranchised. So now we are swimming in an ocean of laws and rules that take away our remaining liberties, one by one.

I wouldn't say that capitalism is inherently a slave system... G.K.Chesterton, for example, had a vision of distributed property ownership, called Distributism (?), which basically addresses a major problem of today: the centralization of property and wealth. He was seeing this almost a century ago, so it's not a new problem.

Right now in the US we have the Democrats, who love the state, working closely with Republicans, who love big business. Now both parties love both--what a deadly combo! Is there some way to slay this Statist Beast without a larger Statist Beast?
--

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (2)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 12 years ago | (#255181)

Intellectual property laws exist only because capitalism is a slavery system.


Balls.

Our livelihood depends on working for others so we can pay our taxes.

Okay, Mr. Smarty, move out someplace and don't interact with anyone, but be totally self-sufficient. Because when you trade with people, you are "working for others."

We should all demand a truly free system where everybody is guaranteed to inherit income property by virtue of being human, a piece of the pie, so to speak.

Uh, you demand that. I'll be asking for actual freedom, not slavery as you are. You want everyone to have "a piece of the pie" "by virtue of being human." Something for nothing? Who's going to provide the something? The people making it. Who's going to provide the nothing? The people receiving the something under your black-is-white system.

This is not a handout from the government

Oh, really. Who's it from, then?


- - - - -

In other news... (5)

1010011010 (53039) | more than 12 years ago | (#255182)

Sealand authorities painted several large patterns consisting of concentric red circles on their island.

- - - - -

Re:I think you overestimate their chances (3)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 12 years ago | (#255183)

> What does a given country or company have to gain by capturing a "data haven" at this point in the history of the internet, honestly?

Several terabytes of pseudo-random numbers? ;-)

Re:Free Society? (5)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 12 years ago | (#255184)

> Until the people decide (the only body allowed to decide, according to the constitution) en masse that they want to change from a free society to a police-state, run by corps with lots of money, then there really isn't anything to debate here, is there?

...and now that, judging from the legislation of the past 8 years and the current crop of Congresscritters sittin' on the hill, the people have decided they want the police-state ("for the chiiiildrun!"), we discover that you were right: there really isn't anything to debate.

At least, nothing that can be debated without the debaters being threatened by lawyers.

> The only thing that is needed to produce real art is the artist and the consumer, in this case the listener. Most everything else [e.g. RIAA] is excess baggage.

Four words for you: "I want my MTV".

Dire Straits was poking fun at themselves and the rest of Top-40. Unfortunately, they were also right.

Money for nothin', indeed.

I think you overestimate their chances (5)

Illserve (56215) | more than 12 years ago | (#255186)

Ok, I'm thinking about what sort of entities would already be taking advantage of a data haven... haven't really come up with much, sorry. What does a given country or company have to gain by capturing a "data haven" at this point in the history of the internet, honestly?

I think you are greatly overromanticizing the importance and protection of Sealand. Sure things have worked out well so far, but I doubt any country would stand up for them, which means a single destroyer class ship is capable of "conquering" it. While there may be connections to positions of power in Britain, those are severely weakened by the departure of its founder.

Yea it's nice to be your own country, but the flip side of that coin is that NO ONE else in the world is obligated to protect you.

I expect that the only reason (apart from some sterling bravado in the 1978 war) Sealand is safe so far is that it hasn't been a big enough thorn in anyone's side to pluck out.

And finally ask yourself this: If the big media are "small potatoes" why was Jon Johansen apprehended?

Re:HavenCo Update from Ryan Lackey (2)

anonymous loser (58627) | more than 12 years ago | (#255187)

The British have a soft spot for eccentrics and kooks and they'll let the "Royal Family" have their fun as long as they're not doing any harm.

What??? He said it's "...just not good business practice for HavenCo...". That doesn't have anything to do with the British or US government, but profitability. It's pretty hard to make money by giving away free services to a bunch of hungry leeches, as evidenced by all the failed and failing dotcoms based on that business model.

Re:Good idea! (2)

idistrust (66924) | more than 12 years ago | (#255190)

Great idea! I know I've got a patent application around here somwhere ...

C&D - I had it first. See you in court.

Mike.

Re:Well of course... (2)

dogbowl (75870) | more than 12 years ago | (#255192)

Or...
The greater you tighter your grip, the more galaxies will slip through your fingers.


Who's Secure? (5)

geomon (78680) | more than 12 years ago | (#255195)

I don't see any legislation getting through the Congress that would ban encryption w/o public keys because there are plenty of companies who need to send their email and other business traffic securely over the web.

The thought businesses would agree to the RIAA or any other organization having exclusive rights to screen private information for potential copyright violations will never fly.

Do you really think IBM or Chevron will agree to anything that gives the RIAA permission to read their email?

They will shit on this quicker than seagulls at a beachside picnic.

Re:Again with the backdoors (1)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 12 years ago | (#255196)

Because others were tested and found to be possessing the degenerate gene sequence that cause them to want to stop encryption.

Everyone knows they're not responsible for such defects but they are still susceptible to their influence.

--end sarcasm

HavenCo Pipedreams (4)

Chairboy (88841) | more than 12 years ago | (#255198)

HavenCo claims that they're perfect for this stuff because they're in Sealand, but despite legios on Cryptnomicon fans slavering at the potential of this data haven, the simple fact of the matter is that HavenCo simply does not have enough bandwidth.

The articles are about thwarting media companies. By virtue of the nature of the media, you must have thick, fat pipes to run your data through, and HavenCo simply cannot do this with their current or prospective future systems.

Their only economical way to become a player would be to load up on satellite transmitters, and even that could be ambushed by mega-companies simply cutting off access upstream. All it takes is one TimeWarnerMcdonaldsSony conglomerate to stop accepting packets from electronic 'disputed zones' to trample this business model.

I'm not saying these companies should stop trying, but using hype to sell abilities you don't have is harmful to your credibility and reduces data havens to science fiction staple.

The worst enemy of a "zero knowledge system"... (5)

BierGuzzl (92635) | more than 12 years ago | (#255199)

... is yet another "Zero knowledge system". We've got enough already -- let's stick with what's out there. Otherwise we'll end up with these new entities coming into that field with commercial interests of their own, not necessarily in tune with the original intent/philosophy.

Re:Worry, worry a lot (1)

BradleyUffner (103496) | more than 12 years ago | (#255203)

Once it gets to that point they will be able to controll everything you do with the internet. They can block ports and many other things. You can't really do anything about it because your only option will be to leave, but tehre won't be any other ISPs left. Can you really live without internet access? Hehehe
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\ =\=\=\=\

Re:Again with the backdoors (2)

kwashiorkor (105138) | more than 12 years ago | (#255205)

North Americans?

Hmmm... as a Canadian, I seem unable to recall the last time our government ever had a problem with the exporting and/or use of encryption by the general populace.

In fact, check out OpenBSD, or JAWS technology [jawzinc.com]. Also, check out this article [info-sec.com] which gives a pretty decent overview of the electronic information policies of various countries.

I think you mean "Americans", our southerly neighbours.

-- kwashiorkor --
Leaps in Logic
should not be confused with

Re:You really think it's that easy? (2)

SuiteSisterMary (123932) | more than 12 years ago | (#255212)

Who cares what they're armed with? Any first world nation that decided they didn't like them could lob one bomb, and bye bye Sealand. Wouldn't even have to go nuclear.

Good idea! (3)

legLess (127550) | more than 12 years ago | (#255221)

a ban on all encrypted traffic for which no key is in escrow for easy policing.

Great idea! I know I've got a patent application around here somwhere ...

question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes

Re:A spineless solution (1)

DennisZeMenace (131127) | more than 12 years ago | (#255223)

Remember, WE are the ones who elected these people, and WE are the ones who will decide if they are re-elected, so they have a great incentive to heed our demands.

I don't think you understand. It's not who elects them, it's who funds them.

Re:Where to escrow? Who to trust? (2)

ssimpson (133662) | more than 12 years ago | (#255225)

Considering that the European Community is very suspicious of the so-called Epsilon system spying on its businesses...

BTW, it's Echelon not Epsilon.

It's not going to happen........... (5)

ssimpson (133662) | more than 12 years ago | (#255226)

"it seems like the obvious next step for the the entertainment factories to lobby for would be a ban on all encrypted traffic for which no key is in escrow for easy policing."

Hang on: The NSA, FBI, CIA, DEA etc etc have lobbied congress for over a decade or so to try and get un-escrowed crypto banned and have failed miserably in all attempts. I'd recommend the excellent book Privacy on the Line [mit.edu] by Diffie and Landau for a complete review of the history of escrow in America.

They also lobbied ANSI [vpnc.org] to get Clipper escrowed technology implemented in banking systems in place of triple-DES but failed miserably.

If the very influencial LEA and Intel agencies failed to convince the US legislature / ANSI using the Four Horsemen argument (e.g. that nuclear terrorists, child pornographers, money launderers, and drug dealers, would flourish if crypto remained freely available) then what makes you think RIAA / MPAA can succeed by persuading congress with the argument that the latest movies are being copied illegaly?

Suddenly my permanent .sig is on-topic ;)

Re:Again with the backdoors (5)

ssimpson (133662) | more than 12 years ago | (#255227)

Is that why use North Americans can use 128-bit encryption, but only allowed to export 56-bit? I would have thought they'd have just told everybody to use 56-bit.

This information is out of date - companies can now export 128-bit encryption to non-embargoed countries (see for example here [microsoft.com]).

Re:Police state ahead? (1)

renehollan (138013) | more than 12 years ago | (#255231)

Perhaps because many of the members of this "community" (a common characteristic does not, IMHO, a community make), believe they have been shat on enough already to make fighting back worthwile.

And I, for one, would not disagree with anyone who felt that way. No, I am not black.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

BetaJim (140649) | more than 12 years ago | (#255232)

I see I've been modded way down because of my sig. :-)

Maybe. I think the out right discounting of possibilities such as time travel to be short sighted (considering our present knowledge). Beside, you have much less credibily than Hawking :)

Again with the backdoors (3)

HerrGlock (141750) | more than 12 years ago | (#255234)

U.S. Gov't wants to ban everything, encryption-wise, that they do not have a back door for. The MPAA, RIAA, LMNOPA, et al want to ban encryption of which THEY don't have back doors to. Seems Joe User is just about screwed no matter which way it goes. The Federal Gov't will just not allow them to BE an ISP or the TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms, four this time) will SUE them until they give in or go broke, whichever is fine with them.

Just say no to back door mandates.

DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]

Re:Pressure helps (5)

Dyolf Knip (165446) | more than 12 years ago | (#255237)

Pressure from the music industry fostering privacy tactics is a good thing compared to other pressures. By developing privacy technology now to prevent corporations from tracking us, we're also developing the means to prevent the government from doing the same thing. I'd much prefer the pressure from music and movies than government regulations

There's a problem, though. What kind of pressure are the industries going to exert? They apparently don't think that technical solutions by themselves will suffice (probably correct in that regard, since SDMI has worked so well), so they also resort to legal pressure. Hence the DMCA.

Really, the whole cause of these problems is the government giving legal force to the demands of the media industries.

There's a Heinlein quote that describes the situation perfectly: "There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law."

--

Okie dokie, NSA, here are my crypto keys... (2)

Alien Perspective (171882) | more than 12 years ago | (#255238)

But they're a bit too large to fit in a /. posting. So instead here's the code that generates 'em:

for (j=0; j < 1<<2048; j++)
printf("here's one of my keys: %d\n",j);

OR maybe I'll just e-mail them to you. All of them. And encourage all my friends to do the same.

Re:Again with the backdoors (5)

dannywyatt (175432) | more than 12 years ago | (#255243)

On this note, I went to a panel on privacy and crypto last week. It included Michael Rabin (Turing award winner, inventor of vanishing key encryption), Whitfield Diffie (co-inventor of public key crypto), Steven Levy (author of Crypto), and John Podesta (Clinton's chief of staff).

Anyhow, Podesta was very candid about how the tight enforcement of export controls was meant to hinder the spread of strong crypto until the NSA could recover from the clipper chip fiasco. So, no, I don't think gov't key escrow will rear it's head again in that form.

He also drew an interesting parallel between weak crypto and regular mail: you trust that your letters will be private if you seal the envelopes. Sure, anyone can open them. But doing so is federal crime with heavy penalties. Hence criminalizing the breaking of weak crypto. But he also said the MPAA deserved what they got. So go figure.

The whole thing is archived on-line [columbia.edu] (alas, WMP only).

All Your Sealand Base... (4)

Golias (176380) | more than 12 years ago | (#255244)

Is it not obvious to nearly everybody that cutting HavenCo off from the rest of the net would be a very easy thing to accomplish, if the US and/or UK cared enough to do so?

Re:All Your Sealand Base... (5)

Golias (176380) | more than 12 years ago | (#255245)

All land-line connections, even to France, probably pass over (or under) British land. A backhoe could make short work of them. Signal jamming would also be easy enough for the satelite signal.

Worst case, the UK or US navy takes out the whole structure (after giving them time to evacuate).

I think concepts like FreeNet offer a lot more promise.

William Gibson's "Walled City" concept could also be adapted to vpn technology, if the file-sharing crowd were so inclined.

HavenCo's problem is the have a physical presence (a.k.a. "a target")... in international waters no less. The Chinese recently reminded us all about how much you can get away with in international waters. If a submarine were to "accidentally" bomb the shit out of that oil platform, what could anybody do about it?

Re:A spineless solution (5)

Golias (176380) | more than 12 years ago | (#255246)

I don't think you understand. It's not who elects them, it's who funds them.

People really need to get past this myth.

The only reason why politicians accept funding is so they can spend it persuading people to vote for them.

According to a recent column I saw in Newsweek, the typical Congressional candidate spends about $3.00 per vote. For some sentators, it has been as high as $7.00 per vote.

So, if you make me a donation of $30,000 (actually, you can't make a donation that large to me under current campaign finance law... but you can donate that to my party or spend it on ads bashing my opponent), there is no way I am going to return the favor by doing something that costs me 15,000 votes, no matter how corrupt I am.

Unfortunately, people with your attitude never bother to let your elected leaders know what it is that you want. When that Big Donor tells them that Bill x is a Good Thing, and they are not hearing otherwise from their constituents, they are more likely to listen to the guy who is helping their next campaign.

But hey, you just go ahead and keep telling yourself how 1337 you are for knowing better than to bother. You might as well stay home on Election Day too, since you are so powerless.

Meanwhile, pardon the rest of us while we continue to tilt at windmills, blissfully unaware of the hopelessness of our situation.

A glass house for the media moguls. (5)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 12 years ago | (#255247)

(I don't want to retype this, and what I wrote originally seems to fit here. so pardon me for a quick cut/paste/edit)

In an earlier thread someone posted the following:

Why would individuals encrypt their emails and other correspondence to each other? What is the rational explanation? The only reason I can see for day-to-day use of encryption is personal emails is that you have something to hide or you have a bad case of paranoia. No offence people - but what makes what you say so interesting that you are so concerned about other people reading it? If you are doing something illegal, or you are concerned about maintaining secrecy because other people may steal your original (and so far unpatented) ideas then maybe there is a point - but I have met some people who refuse to exchange email unless it is PGP encrypted - what's up with that?

My response was:

The issue is one of Privacy.

If you do not belive in privacy, then I can recommend a glass house for you.

After all, you are not doing anything illegal? And if all houses were made of glass we would be able to catch criminals alot easier. We could just watch them all of the time with TV cameras.

What are you doing that is so important that it would require secrecy and privacy 24 hours a day? You must have a criminal frame of mind, not wanting to live in a glass house. This obsession with privacy is merely paranoia, y'know, and is easily fixed with one of several medications. Let us recommend a nice doctor who would be very willing to help you with medications.

I think this is very easily applicable to the Media companies. Let's open all of the books of all of the companies, and of all of the executives, because after all, They have nothing to hide at all, Right? Right?

[There have been so many rumors of associations with criminal elements, we need to make sure that everything is on the up and up]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. The Media Moguls deserve the Glass House treatment. Since they are acting in a way that seems so criminal to many of us, how about actually investigating them for other crimes? What are the odds that someone would find something?

Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

Re:Again with the backdoors (1)

sulli (195030) | more than 12 years ago | (#255249)

yeah, but there's no backdoor mandate now, and there's no reason to expect that one will appear. First amendment and all that shite.

Where to escrow? Who to trust? (4)

Nakoruru (199332) | more than 12 years ago | (#255252)

The first thing that pops into my head when the idea of key escrow is who do you trust to escrow keys and where do you keep them?

This may not be a big problem for domestic network traffic, but it becomes a huge problem for international traffic.

Considering that the European Community is very suspicious of the so-called Epsilon system spying on its businesses, how likely are they to trust keys that are escrowed in the US for doing business with Europe? Of course, the sword cuts both ways.

No one should trust encryption key escrow anymore than they should trust the government to have all the guns. I guess that statement only applies to the US, just try to take away guns from US citizens! People should react the same way to the privacy rape thats going on now.

Re:Worry, worry a lot (4)

milo_Gwalthny (203233) | more than 12 years ago | (#255255)

I used to work for one of the largest consumer ISPs in the US. Our lawyers loved to list potential legal problems with pretty much anything we wanted to do or not do. But, we knew that any infringement on what our users had come to expect from the service, no matter how small, would cause a great hue and cry and numerous defections. Given our always precarious financial situation, we cared more about losing a paying customer today than a lawsuit tomorrow.

On a side note, running an ISP has to be the worst job in the world. Even when we did things like change pricing plans from $25/unlimited to $20/unlimited we would get protests. It's hard to teach PR to a bunch of telecomm guys, I guess.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (2)

mad_clown (207335) | more than 12 years ago | (#255261)

[rant]

Oh please. This is such typical drivel:

"Capitalism is a slavery system" "We want a truly free system" "bla bla bla bla bla"

How about you try being realistic? Instead of whining, in cliche terms about how bad things supposedly are, why don't you try to change things? And by change things, I don't mean rioting in the streets and overturning cars and smashing shop windows in the name of "righteous protest." I'm no huge fan of capitalism, but all-in-all, I feel it works for me better than so-called "socialism," the likes of which exist in China and in the former Soviet Union, would. It certainly works better for me than so-called anarchy, where everyone is "free to do what they want..." including rob my house and enslave me.

Instead of demonizing capitalism with canned slogans, try to change the world by envisioning a truly better way of life, and not in the broad, vague, unreasonable, and utopian terms you've stated here.

The issue at hand, anyways, is privacy. Without privacy, you wouldn't even be able to post this kind of thing, so instead of screaming about "slave systems," fight for your right to say what's on your mind, or send send encrypted email. I guarantee you'll accomplish much more for the good of yourself and mankind-at-large fighting specific grievances than advancing vague ideologies.

[/rant]

Re:Again with the backdoors (5)

mad_clown (207335) | more than 12 years ago | (#255265)

Well... you have a point. However, people won't stand for it for long. Joe-sixpack LIKES Napster. No government ban, no RIAA/MPAA/DCMA whining will ultimately stop him. If Napster dies, he'll use something else.

Combined with the power of the ACLU, the EFF, and similar organizations, Joe-sixpack, whether he's doing the right thing or not by stealing content, is a potent force against the growing anti-privacy movement now engulfing the internet in the name of intellectual property.

The battle continues, but people, sheeplike as they may sometimes appear, posess the power to halt this kind of thing in its tracks, and when the public becomes outraged... its all over for these corporate chumps and their pit of vipers... err, I mean lawyers.

As always: contact your representative, write editorials, hold your own well-publicised media events (really, who's stopping you?).... Protests don't have to be a bunch of dirty hippies rioting and spraying "Die pig" on overturned cars. The battle can be won, but it must be won in a way that makes our side look better.

Re:In other news... (1)

pcidevel (207951) | more than 12 years ago | (#255266)

The only reason they're still around is that it has yet to be worth the effort to send a platoon of Royal Marines out there to take back the property of the UK government.

You should consider researching what you say. The UK government ruled that that the fortress is not part of the UK and is in international waters.. hence.. it's not UK property!

Re:Sealand Not UK (1)

pcidevel (207951) | more than 12 years ago | (#255267)

Personally, I don't think a metal platform built by the UK government in the Second World War can NOT be the property of the UK, or be an independant nation-state...but that's not the issue at hand.

Acutally it was abandoned, hence Sealand was able to claim the structure. If anything is abandoned in international waters, it can be claimed by any nation.

Re:In other news... (5)

pcidevel (207951) | more than 12 years ago | (#255268)

Have you got a link for that?

It's in the Sealand History [sealandgov.com] under the Initial Challenge to Sealand's Sovereignty heading. Read all about it! :) There is also information about Sealands first war on that page.. very interesting read!

International waters or not, ocean platforms belong to the organization (or, in this case, military) that built them.

This is VERY correct; however, you seem to have forgotten a very important point, your quote should read: International waters or not, ocean platforms belong to the organization (or, in this case, military) that built them, until they abandon them., Which is exact what happened, that is how Sealand was able to claim the land!

A spineless solution (4)

atrowe (209484) | more than 12 years ago | (#255270)

HavenCo doesn't seem like the best situation. HavenCo is nothing more than the dark alley of the Internet, where thuds and w4r3z d00d5 roam. If we continue to avoid the music and movie industries, and duck underneath the grasp of their dubious laws, they're only going to lobby harder in congress and further tighten the noose around our necks.

I say we need to stand up against the corporate monopolies and start our own campaign against the rape of our constitution. Most of us geeks are content to sit back and bask in the false sense of security provided by our ROT-13 and PGP keys, while all the while, the corporate superpowers are documenting our evasiveness and using it as reason to pass even more restrictive legislation.

Stop pussyfooting around the issue, and send a letter to YOUR government representative today. Request, nay DEMAND that information be free, and that our rights of ownership are stripped away from the corporate behemoths and restored to the hands of the common man. Remember, WE are the ones who elected these people, and WE are the ones who will decide if they are re-elected, so they have a great incentive to heed our demands.

Re:HavenCo Update from Ryan Lackey (3)

update() (217397) | more than 12 years ago | (#255273)

It's pretty obvious where we stand on free speech, privacy, copyright, etc. issues, but unfortunately we have a duty to shareholders, and the "donate service to all sorts of cool free projects, bring a bunch of controversy, earn the hatred of the established media industry, etc." is just not good business practice for HavenCo, regardless of what the Sealand Government wants to do.

Clearly the HavenCo people have more sense than do the Neuromancer-obsessed geeks who genuinely believe Sealand could function as an independent sovereign entity. The British have a soft spot for eccentrics and kooks and they'll let the "Royal Family" have their fun as long as they're not doing any harm. But if you seriously think they could function as a high-profile base for copyright infringement, you need to read more newspapers and fewer Gibson novels.

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Open ended question... (2)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 12 years ago | (#255276)

How much of the internet's backbone lies geographically within the United States?

Anybody see where I'm going with this?

You really think it's that easy? (4)

Dave Rickey (229333) | more than 12 years ago | (#255277)

Err, for obvious reasons HavenCo doesn't discuss who their clients are, but consider the political and diplomatic muscle it took for them to reach their current status. Consider how much money just maintaining the physical plant and all that armed security (armed with what? Don't even ask)entails. Think about what sorts of entities would *already* be taking advantage of a "data haven". Then ask yourself if you really think it would be that easy to roll over Prince Roy, or cut off Sealand. In the leagues they play in, "big media" is small potatoes. --Dave Rickey

Re:A spineless solution (2)

sirfuzz (233361) | more than 12 years ago | (#255278)

Remember, WE are the ones who elected these people, and WE are the ones who will decide if they are re-elected, so they have a great incentive to heed our demands.

The only problem is this: how many people in the *real* world (e.g. non-geeks) actually _care_ about this topic if they do not participate in file-sharing, etc. Chances are, geeks are a minority in the huge group of electors.
Also, many (most?) people will take the position of "if it doesn't affect me, then I don't care."

If enough people DO send letters to their representatives, then hopefully they *will* listen.
Compare 100 people sending letters (probably the ones who care the most) to 5000 people (people who care, but not as much). So, SEND IN THOSE LETTERS!

Free Society? (4)

room101 (236520) | more than 12 years ago | (#255279)

The only question to ask here is: is America still a free society? If so, then there is nothing really to debate, is there?


Until the people decide (the only body allowed to decide, according to the constitution) en masse that they want to change from a free society to a police-state, run by corps with lots of money, then there really isn't anything to debate here, is there?


I think it is ludicrous to believe that this is what the people of this nation would want: to give up freedom so some out dated, over advertising, overbearing corporation can sell us something we don't really need: their prepackaged version of somebody else's idea of art.


The only thing that is needed to produce real art is the artist and the consumer, in this case the listener. Most everything else is excess baggage. Some extra things are required (like a media, player, etc.), things that enable this tranmission of art. Other things, like the RIAA, et al. are not needed, in fact they hinder art, thus need to be eliminated.

Police state ahead? (4)

arfy (236686) | more than 12 years ago | (#255280)

Could the corporations get a ban on all encrypted traffic for which no key is in escrow for easy policing?

I'm beginning to think that corporations can get just about anything they want in the U.S. I'm trying not to be cynical, but the U.S. Supreme Court has been handing down increasingly bizarre decisions with hardly any public comment against it. Last week's decision gutting the Fourth Amendment, for example: do a majority of U.S. citizens really think it's OK for the police to stop, handcuff, arrest, mugshot and jail a woman for not wearing a seatbelt? In a state where the maximum penalty for this "crime" is a $50 fine?

This from a court that says money is speech, innocence is no defense against the death penalty and there's no need to finish counting votes in a close election.

The only way the RIAA, MPAA et. al. can fully protect what they perceive to be their property is if society allows a police state to develop. The Fourth Amendment was lost last week; we're on our way.

Well of course... (5)

joshyboy (237516) | more than 12 years ago | (#255281)

Chris Hansen, the guy at Earthlink knows what's going on and the Un-'napsterization' of the internet is fruitless. He states "The stronger the protection, the stronger the attack,"
--

Pressure helps (3)

truthsearch (249536) | more than 12 years ago | (#255292)

Pressure from the music industry fostering privacy tactics is a good thing compared to other pressures. By developing privacy technology now to prevent corporations from tracking us, we're also developing the means to prevent the government from doing the same thing. I'd much prefer the pressure from music and movies than government regulations.

---

Message for Ken Jacobsen (2)

Vortran (253538) | more than 12 years ago | (#255301)

I wonder if Ken has a legitimate license to legally use every piece of intellectual property he has access to? Ken? Hello? Wanna explain this? (points to unlicensed copy of something on Ken's computer)

No? Then STFU and go home. I'm really tired of all the would-be piracy Czars crying in the name of the law and integrity. Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone.

We have a LONG way to go in terms of grappling with ownership and usage of intellectual property. The mere concept of IP is at the heart of some of these debates. As the Internet turns IP into a commodity, it is fascinating to watch the issues unfold.

I look forward with great curiosity and anticipation to where humanity ends up with this.

Havenco at risk??? (3)

Proud Geek (260376) | more than 12 years ago | (#255305)

Why is Havenco at risk? They're just another company out to make a buck. They don't care one way or the other about copyright.

Sure, they will provide service for copyright violators, even blatant ones. But for that to take place, there has to be someone with a business plan involving copyright violations. "Give other people's stuff away for free," sounds nice in theory, but you have to survive off of it also. To do that, you have to be pretty public, so why bother with stealth? Second, that means a lot of bandwidth, and for all Havenco is, they aren't a provider of cheap bandwidth.

I'm sure the fight will heat up, but I doubt Havenco has much stake in it, one way or the other.

To the roots of the "Internet" (5)

Rory_O (260852) | more than 12 years ago | (#255308)

Almost all /.ers know that the current state of the net was born out of the hard work and research of mostly public and a few private academic institutions.

During the late 90s, we all know that changed, mostly for the worse

Now we're seeing the clash of the 'geeks' who have had their last haven against the extreme capitalism invaded, and we're not taking this lightly at all.

Problem is, there is so damn few of us to matter...

But to stay on topic... what crossed my mind is: I'm seeing the current 'net floating towards a balance of 2 seperate entities: the aolmsnyahootimewarner.megacom variety, and the berkelyslashdot.orgu.

Capitalism can have their side, nobody here cares about that if they stay on their side of the fence. But what happens when the 4-letter acronyms start invading our home turf Universities, the havens of intellectualism. The slashdots, kuro5hins.

As an aside, some universities are driven by some corporate entities to some extent, mostly out of necessity to keep admission and tuition costs from inflating to unreachable heights. A state university here is well known to have its biology department almost totally funded by a select few multinational drug corporations, mostly to keep its head afloat. Now, the biology department has mostly turned into a cheap research lab for those companies.

So what does this mean for our last fortresses of defense? What I'm fearing is the 4-letter acronyms start attacking the universities after they have done cleaning up the blood of non-conformant ISPs wishing to take a final stand for their users rights (or greed, whichever is fine by me). Oh, well we all know they have done half-hearted attempts before, but nothing very serious. I think they're waiting until they're finished testing where they can push the government and the people before the final 'battle' will begin.

I can't see where it will go from here. All I can see is a horrible bloody mess between the 4 letters and the multinationals that run some universities, with the rest trying to hold out on their own. The outcome? I can't say... just years and years of hurtful words, damaged egos, broken spirits and one side not willing to give into the other. After it all clears, possibly, the best will stand and can say "we are standing because we are here for what is right"

But we can't do it at the corporate level. Fighting with ISPs, organizations and such all take money. We simply can't even to begin to raise enough money to even put up a decent fight [see: napster, et al]. What we can do is take a stand at the intellectual, thoughtful, insightful level. Win with ideals, not money. Its the only chance we have.

*Off soapbox now

It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

MOBE2001 (263700) | more than 12 years ago | (#255309)

Intellectual property laws exist only because capitalism is a slavery system. Our livelihood depends on working for others so we can pay our taxes. The reason that we have to work for others is that 99% of people have been deprived of an inheritance in the land. Income property is owned by a few and the government. The others are slaves. Artists and inventors depend on their work to make a living. Can we blame them? With the exception of a few, we all do because we are all slaves and we are all disenfranchised. So now we are swimming in an ocean of laws and rules that take away our remaining liberties, one by one.

The internet and other communication technologies are the first major kinks in the armor of a sick system. As technology progresses, it will eventually die a horrible death. What will happen to a slave-based economy when robots replace everybody, i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless?

We should all demand a truly free system where everybody is guaranteed to inherit income property by virtue of being human, a piece of the pie, so to speak. This way we can all compete and coorperate on an equal footing. No welfare, no exploitation, no herding of billions of people into big cities that pollute the earth.

There is plenty for everybody. This is not a handout from the government because the land has existed for billions of years before any human government appear on earth. Their job is to make sure that everybody gets a fair piece. What we doo with our inheritance after that is up to us and our descendants.

The land and the world's wealth should not be divided for a price. It should be an inheritance for us and our children and their children.

Mod me down because of my sig.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

MOBE2001 (263700) | more than 12 years ago | (#255310)

I am just as opposed to communism as I am to capitalism. Communism confiscates all property and enslaves everybody. Capitalism gives property to a few and enslaves the rest. It's sad. The land should not be divided for a price. It should be an inheritance for us and our children and their children.

Mod me down because of my sig.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

MOBE2001 (263700) | more than 12 years ago | (#255311)

Offtopic=4, Flamebait=1, Troll=1, Interesting=5, Total=11

I see I've been modded way down because of my sig. :-) Thanks to the moderators who modded me up.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

MOBE2001 (263700) | more than 12 years ago | (#255312)

Interesting. jazman_777 gets modded up to 3: interesting while the post he is replying to gets modded down to oblivion during after a tug of war between 12 moderators. It's a beautiful thing to watch.

Mod me down because of my sig.

Re:Worry, worry a lot (3)

Sarcasmooo! (267601) | more than 12 years ago | (#255320)

I agree that they'll cave simply because it's in their best interests to, but they're not going to sue themselves [mediachannel.org]. Internet users have fewer and fewer choices; the broadband market is dominated by AOL-TimeWarner and AT and as far as alternatives go, the big fish are eating the little fish [sfgate.com]. Most people connect to Napster to download music that is copyrighted by the music division of their own ISP's 'corporate-mothership'. AOL-TimeWarner will keep 'Road Runner' and @Home users on a short leash on behalf of 'Warner Bros Records', 'Walt Disney' will keep AT&T users on a short leash to protect 'Walt Disney Pictures' and 'Walt Disney Records'.

Re:A spineless solution (5)

SomeoneYouDontKnow (267893) | more than 12 years ago | (#255321)

Agreed! I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The only way to stop the destruction of our fair use rights, as well as the patent and IP madness, is to make a stand. Get out there and fight like hell. Bring the battle to the forefront of the news as often as possible, and turn up the heat on the greedy corporations whenever possible. Speaking of copyrights, The New York Times has a column [nytimes.com] by Lawrence Lessig on just that subject. I strongly suggest everyone here go and read it. And after you're done, write a letter to the editor on this subject and mail it in. The Times is an influential newspaper, and any issue that can get traction within its pages is going to find its way into other media sooner or later. Here's the opening. Anyone care to take advantage of it?

Re:Worry, worry a lot (5)

EllisDees (268037) | more than 12 years ago | (#255322)

All you have to do is send a letter to your isp stating that you aren't trading any copyrighted materials. Then they are obligated to keep you connected - you have removed the liability from them. Of course the next step the studios would have to take after that would be filing suit against you...fuck em!

Big jump... (4)

gus goose (306978) | more than 12 years ago | (#255325)

... It is a big jump from going from the article's text to key escrow.

It is in the interests of many people/organisations to use encryption. Further, systems like Gnutella do more than just music / mp3 / copyrighted material transfers. The problem is in proving the content of the transfer, rather than the fat that the transfer occurred. Further, much of the sting of these "interested parties" disappears outside the USofA.

Let's face it, PGP is equally capable of transferring sensitive / copyrighted material as Gnutella, Freenet, etc.

Still, the point is that there is no link between the article and key escrow. Tha article only points out that the RIAA, and others are looking at alternative "Napster's".

Now, if FreeNet had Linux clients....

Re:Again with the backdoors (5)

bumski (308461) | more than 12 years ago | (#255327)

Comparing laws protecting weak crypto with laws prohibiting mail tampering is interesting, but flawed. A law, narrowly drafted to protect a very specific service, might, IMHO, be good or at least acceptable. Too bad that in order to protect the mail, we now find it necessary to prohibit:
  • studying individual envelopes, to determine whether they might be openable,
  • opening envelopes, even if used for purposes other than mail delivery, and
  • teaching others how to open envelopes.

BTW, manufacturing letter openers is now a federal offense. Also, we're considering criminalizing the manufacture of envelopes that are too difficult for government employees to open and re-seal surreptitiously.

Re:All Your Sealand Base... (1)

Tipsy McStagger (312800) | more than 12 years ago | (#255329)

True. They link into Amsterdam as well.

I'm wondering why they haven't got themselves a tld yet instead of using .com - IIRC they have proven they're an independant principality under UK law so surely that should be enough for ICANN or whoever it is...

Re:Good idea! (2)

Chakat (320875) | more than 12 years ago | (#255331)

Sorry, prior art. [epic.org] Mandatory key escrow cries failed once in the US, and they'll fail again. The day escrow is required is the day I renounce my citizenship.

Re:In other news... (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#255333)

"The UK government ruled that that the fortress is not part of the UK and is in international waters.. hence.. it's not UK property!"

Have you got a link for that? International waters or not, ocean platforms belong to the organization (or, in this case, military) that built them.

Re:Sealand Not UK (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#255334)

"that's why the UK would use the Royal Marines or SAS or Royal Navy instead of Police."

They wouldn't send "police," either. I said "Marines" because the platform built by the Royal Navy. I also don't know the name of the USCG-equivalent over there (if any).

I'm probably just being picky, but "police" usually doesn't bring to mind cutters armed with anti-ship guns.

Re:In other news... (2)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#255336)

His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz. New-Hampshire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, NewYork, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, to be free, sovereign and independent States; that he treats with them as such; and for himself, his heirs and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety and territorial rights of the same, and every part thereof.
-- Treaty of Paris
30 September 1783

Re:Again with the backdoors (4)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#255339)

"U.S. Gov't wants to ban everything, encryption-wise, that they do not have a back door for."

Is that why use North Americans can use 128-bit encryption, but only allowed to export 56-bit? I would have thought they'd have just told everybody to use 56-bit.

Is that why part of the NSA's mission is to develop new encryption algorithms to keep confidential American information (government or otherwise) confidential? After all, that IS the NSA's reason for trying to code SE Linux.

If everybody in the government wanted what you're suggesting, it'd be done by now. Now, maybe if paranoids like you came out of their armed camps every once in a while to have a look-see, you might notice this.

Re:In other news... (5)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 12 years ago | (#255340)

Nevermind, found my own. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_778000/ 778267.stm [bbc.co.uk]
But (Roy Bates') plans were dealt a blow in 1987 when the UK extended its territorial waters from 3 to 12 miles.

Now Sealand sits inside waters that Britain claims as its territory.

A spokesman for the Home Office said it had no reason to recognise Sealand as a nation. "We've no reason to believe that anyone else recognises it either," he added.

...

(John Bates, an expert on sea law and piracy) said because Sealand was man-made there was little chance that it would be recognised as a nation. "I don't think structures of that kind count as territory," he said.

So it would seem what I said earlier still stands: The only reason they're still there is because the Brits haven't had reason to shut them down.

Re:You really think it's that easy? (1)

Tech187 (416303) | more than 12 years ago | (#255348)

What I am thinking is that the people who provided all the 'muscle' to give them the status they have can't be terribly concerned about geeks getting their music and movies for free. So said 'big muscle' will make sure nobody rocks the boat and spoils the deal they have going. In other words, don't count on a warm welcome to Sealand if all you are is a 'Fair Use' freedom fighter.

Re:It Will Get Much Worse Before it Gets Better (1)

warmiak (444024) | more than 12 years ago | (#255354)

"We should all demand a truly free system where everybody is guaranteed to inherit income property by virtue of being human, a piece of the pie, so to speak. "

Inherit income generated by whom ?

"Their job is to make sure that everybody gets a fair piece. "

The old same problem. How do you determine what is a fair piece ?

"There is plenty for everybody. This is not a handout from the government because the land has existed for billions of years before any human government appear on earth. "

There is a plenty of what ? It takes a knowledge and lot of work to create modern products ( natural resources aside )
How do you determine how people get paid for that ? Do you pay the same everybody ( no one will be willing to do anything more than bare minimum) or do you pay people according to their skills and importance of the task they are doing ( in this case we are talking about capitalism.)

Re:Again with the backdoors (1)

sludgely (447712) | more than 12 years ago | (#255364)

Even then, correct me if im wrong, but I can go and code a program that utilizies 1024 bit encryption and that is still legal too. As long as i do not export it. Isn't it?
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