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Nokia Dethroned As Top Phone Maker By Samsung

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 years ago | from the elop-is-a-business-wizard dept.

Cellphones 134

SternisheFan writes "PCMag's Angela Moscaritolo writes: 'Samsung is expected to account for 29 percent of worldwide cell phone shipments, up from 21 percent in 2011, when it nabbed the No. 2 spot in the market. Meanwhile, Nokia's share this year will drop from 30 percent to 24 percent this year. Nokia had held the top spot in the mobile phone market since 1998.'" Not just highest sales of smartphones, but of all cell phones.

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So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336019)

Can we all hate on Samsung now?

Re:So... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336133)

Can we all hate on Samsung now?

This is /. so there's enough hate for everybody to go around.

Re:So... (1)

NixieBunny (859050) | about 2 years ago | (#42336903)

Apple is doing enough of that to get the job done all by themselves. No need for the rest of us to pile on.

Re:So... (1)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 2 years ago | (#42336979)

I hate Samsung already for their abomination of a line of BluRay players. They are as stable as WIndows 95 on a Cyrix processor and apparently, they don't give a hoot [google.com]

Re:So... (2)

Mister Whirly (964219) | about 2 years ago | (#42337135)

Displays and phones - that is what Samsung is good at making. Do not stray from this and you will be rarely disappointed.

Re:So... (3, Insightful)

arekin (2605525) | about 2 years ago | (#42337535)

My Samsung laptops are amazingly good, and I have had a Samsung washer and dryer in a rental unit that were very nice. Also the Samsung microwave works rather well at work. Sadly, you have to use HR's break area to use it. I would say that their product line doesn't stop so simply at displays or phones, but I would definitely say that apple supports their products better if you do get a crappy one.

Nokia and Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336023)

I think their deal is not what they expected! Lumia is a good phone but they are better alternative!

Should have peed their pants (1)

bartoku (922448) | about 2 years ago | (#42338203)

If Nokia had peed their pants with Android they would still be #1. Instead the crapped their pants with Windows Phone.

Re:Should have peed their pants (1)

leuk_he (194174) | about 2 years ago | (#42338755)

Nokia was big enough to bet multiple horses. Support for symbian, their meebo, maybe android on meebo.

Instead they burned all platforms and went for a uncerterain winPhone and low-end OS that barely are an OS. In the time between the maturing of windowsPhone (not there yet....) and the abandoning of symbian was a deep dark hole they are still falling in.

Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (5, Insightful)

sethstorm (512897) | about 2 years ago | (#42336039)

When they moved from generally useful "multi-tool" phones to relatively functionless whorephone candybars, courtesy of Microsoft-owned executive Mr. "Burning Platform" Elop, market share took a dive. In addition, salespeople couldn't even figure out how to sell them.

That, and it didn't help that their "sold only in a Third World hellhole" N9 phone, which ran Meego Harmattan, has a better sales record than the Windows Phones that were "meant for the First World markets".

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336139)

When they moved from generally useful "multi-tool" phones to relatively functionless whorephone candybars, courtesy of Microsoft-owned executive Mr. "Burning Platform" Elop, market share took a dive. In addition, salespeople couldn't even figure out how to sell them.

That, and it didn't help that their "sold only in a Third World hellhole" N9 phone, which ran Meego Harmattan, has a better sales record than the Windows Phones that were "meant for the First World markets".

Nokia was in free fall with accellerating market share loss, and lost 70% of their market value (!) in the 3 years leading up to hiring Elop and betting on Windows Phone. This is why the former CEO had to go. Elop and Windows Phone certainly hasn't changed the trend to the better for Nokia yet, but to put the blame for Nokias troubles squarely on Elop/WP and disregard the catastrophic trend of previous 3 years, is either uninformed or disingenious. Would betting on Android instead have done them any better? Maybe, but to claim that is a given is also way to simplistic. HTC did, and have had a similar nosedive as Nokia (source [google.com] )

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (0, Flamebait)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336409)

Nokia was in free fall with accellerating market share loss, and lost 70% of their market value (!) in the 3 years leading up to hiring Elop and betting on Windows Phone.

To put that is some kind of perspective Apple have just lost 25% of their market cap in 3 months; Elop taking a further 60% of Nokia's market cap in 2 years. I'm not really sure what your point is, but nothing changes from what he says, all that your pointing out is how much worse things went after Elop adopting a Microsoft strategy in absence of everything else.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336851)

So losing 60% of your remaining 30% is worse than losing the first 70%? Doesn't sound right.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336945)

So losing 60% of your remaining 30% is worse than losing the first 70%? Doesn't sound right.

...yes obviously it is. I think you need to look at how shares work...and percentages too.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337931)

60% of the time, it works every time.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42338683)

Don't even start on it...

Nokia spit in the face of geeks by choosing Microsoft as main 'partner'.

It's as if Barbie spit in the face of little girls. They spit in the face of people who make trends. it did not exactly help Nokia.
Elop failed Nokia. In two years things should have improved for Nokia. End of story.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (2, Insightful)

marcello_dl (667940) | about 2 years ago | (#42336627)

Nobody said that Nokia was in perfect shape before hiring Elop.
I'd say that hiring him and not dumping it pronto after an ex microsoft employee proposes a microsoft centric strategy defines perfectly the sorry state of Nokia.

They had the first real smartphones (after owning some android 4 and trying mtp and ftp to shuttle files around, I'd say the only real smartphones) and they were the best hardware manufacturers. If they screwed up there are two possible reasons:

1- their board was made of fools (I never believe in incompetence at those levels)
2- the financial/banking/media system which de facto owns all corporations didn't like nokia empowerment of individuals (AN OPEN NETWORKABLE DEVICE IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND???) and they put them in line. Now that they sell toys like everybody else they might even see some resurgence, but my bet is they will get bought by MS.

Nokia 2007 share: 39%, 2010:36.6% (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336891)

Market share:
2007: 39%
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/business/worldbusiness/18iht-nokia.4.7948524.html?_r=0
2010: 36.6%
http://www.sramanamitra.com/2010/05/05/nokias-market-share-declines/

Market value:
$115B in 2007, PE 11
$50B in 2010, PE 12.95
$15B now, PE - (loss)

http://www.stock-analysis-on.net/NYSE/Company/Nokia-Corp/Valuation/Ratios#PE

Zune.
When he made that decision, the flaws in the thinking were pointed out then, it's not like he made a *good* decision at the time and somehow it turned out bad, Microsoft already had Windows phones out in the market, it already couldn't sell them. It had failed badly with Zune. It already had a search engine that wasn't winning against Google, it already had a maps system not winning against Google's maps.

I mean, the guy made a bad decision, he was told it was bad, it was demonstrably bad, it turned out bad, and people defend his bad decision based on some imagined *badder* reality.

Re:Nokia 2007 share: 39%, 2010:36.6% (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337967)

We have a winner!

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (2)

peppepz (1311345) | about 2 years ago | (#42336915)

HTC did, and have had a similar nosedive as Nokia

Actually, HTC bet on Windows Phone too, so your example works in both ways.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336935)

That is what happens when you don't have a driving vision behind your company...it, and the products it sells, stagnate. Elop's "vision" for Nokia was to become Microsoft's manufacturing puppet. Well, they succeeded in that. Unfortunately, Windows Phone SUCKS, and nothing Elop sells right now is competitive in the market. THAT is why they are failing. "Plan B"? Not allowed, sorry. No Symbian, no Android, no other alternative. Put all your eggs in one basket, and this is what happens, people! Even Samsung is using Windows Phone, Android and Bada. One platform fails miserably? No sweat, just lean on the other two!

Best bet for Nokia right now? Go back to selling boots!

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

penix1 (722987) | about 2 years ago | (#42337377)

Here is the part that gets me:

Samsung is expected to

"expected to" != "has done". Call me when they have succeeded.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42338629)

Nokia had *increasing sales* of their Symbian smartphones and their smartphone unit was *profitable*. Yes, they were loosing market share because others entered the smartphone market but and this was not perfect, but it only turned into a catastropic trend because of this moronic windows phone descision. And most people new it at that time and said so. Let me say it more clearly for those who still don't get it: If you are profitable, you don't have to fire people, you don't have to close down factories, you don't have to cut down on the number of products, ... Even if you loose market share that is *not* a catasrophe.

But if you sell your company to Microsoft (which in the past screwed all their mobile partners), declare your profitable product lines obsolete and switch instead to an obsolete and technically inferior operating system (at that time: Windows Phone 7 based on Windows CE), which had at that time tiny market share (still has) and decreasing sales, rush out a very limited number of buggy products (the Lumia all had numerous flaws at release), obsolete all you software (maps and other software from Nokia is still inferior on Lumia compared to Symbian because development had to start over), then is is not surprising that you turn loss-making immediatly, have to fire many workers (and loose a lot of good people. Many started to walk away immediatly after the announcement of the Microsoft partnership), close factories, sell your head quarters, get your credit worthiness rated junk, ... This *is* a catasrophe and can be blamed on Elop and the board who made this extremely stupid decision.

And let's not get me started about what they have thrown aways with the N9 and Maemo/Meego. And even if you think Meego alreay had no chance at that time (I think they had), additionaly brining out Android phones to hedge your bets would not have been a problem and not even too much effort considering that there would have been a lot of synergies with Meego with respect to supporting hardware because both are based on Linux.

I know you won't want to hear this (4, Insightful)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | about 2 years ago | (#42336155)

And whenever I post on this subject I get modded to -1 by Nokia fanboys. But I have quite good karma, and I do have this thing about living in the real world. So.

Look at RIM. They are trying to re-invent themselves with a QNX-based platform. In order to deliver that, they have basically abandoned their old platform to existing products and a new low-end phone to try to retain market share in places like Nigeria. Development on existing products has stopped. They know that they can only afford to do one OS and they must do it well.

We've already read about the internal fighting in Nokia around Maemo/Meego. It is fairly obvious that the investment wasn't there to take it forward as a new platform to compete with the iOS/Android bandwagons. It falls into the category of things with good foundations that didn't get a chance and lost momentum, like webOS. (I have an N900, I have a Pre 2 and a Pre 3, I do know what I am writing about).

Elop was right about the burning platform and he was between the Scylla of Android and the Charybdis of Microsoft. Regardless of where he came from, he could see that Taiwan and Korea were already ramping up Android and Nokia would be a me-too. Microsoft offered investment and a different offering. Basically, he knew that he would be screwed by Microsoft but he also knew he would be screwed by Samsung, HTC, LG, and even Asus. So what do you do in the circumstances? You cannot do both because having too many offerings - a long term Nokia failing - leads to excessive support and R&D costs, along with insufficient volume for a given product

Elop isn't a saint, he is a CEO. I am pretty sure that in the same situation anyone who understands the industry, and business in general, would have made a similar decision. It might be of the order of "do I abandon ship in this shark infested water or do I keep pumping and hope I get to Tahiti", but it still looks like a rational decision.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (5, Funny)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | about 2 years ago | (#42336341)

And whenever I post on this subject I get modded to -1 by Nokia fanboys.

Nokia fanboys? +1 funny!

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (1, Informative)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | about 2 years ago | (#42336543)

No, they exist. They believe that Maemo/Meego was the One True way, and that it would have been successful but for Elop. In my view they don't really understand that ultimately it was under-resourced and too late. The N900, for instance, had a resistive touchscreen and a micro-USB that had a tendency to break off. I recommended them to my company and got the resulting flak, and I won't forget it. The N9 sold reasonably well but I suspect that Nokia could not have supported it alongside ramping up Windows Phone, and by then Android was a bandwagon that everyone was getting on to.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336361)

They know that they can only afford to do one OS and they must do it well.

Lol. That must be why Samsung is doing so badly with at least 4 (in order of sales and popularity, Android, Bada, Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone 8). Besides, your comparison is flawed. RIM didn't abandon all R&D to become dependent on a untrustworthy competitor, like Nokia did. RIM is pursuing an alternative, and which might work or not, but which doesn't put them in the dependence of a convicted monopolist.

Regardless of where he came from, he could see that Taiwan and Korea were already ramping up Android and Nokia would be a me-too.

So he picked the worst solution, even inferior than being a me-too, being a me-too with a OS nobody wants and tied to a partner/competitor that had already betrayed several other mobile companies (Sendo, anyone?).

Elop isn't a saint, he is a CEO. I am pretty sure that in the same situation anyone who understands the industry, and business in general, would have made a similar decision. It might be of the order of "do I abandon ship in this shark infested water or do I keep pumping and hope I get to Tahiti", but it still looks like a rational decision.

Sorry, but no. The only way that a decision of destroying completely a major platform (symbian), abandoning all R&D, choosing a platform that nobody wanted and that isn't customisable and prohibits most differentiating factors, could look like a rational decision was if Elop wasn't thinking in what was best for Nokia, but instead was acting in what was best for Microsoft and for the flop Windows Phone.

If we were talking of a rational CEO, not only would he have abstained from the burning platform memo, where he destroyed symbian without having yet an alternative, but he would also have refused to put all eggs in one basket; or at least he would have prepared a plan B for when (as it happened) Microsoft would "osborne" his platform and/or start competing directly and/or started favouring a competitor. Two of these three situations have already happened. Since the only actions taken by Elop are more of the same, either he is not rational or he is not working with Nokia's best interests in mind.

ME too (5, Insightful)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336493)

he could see that Taiwan and Korea were already ramping up Android and Nokia would be a me-too....You cannot do both because having too many offerings - a long term Nokia failing - leads to excessive support and R&D costs

Skipping the waffle. You seem to not have been aware that HTC; Samsung; LG; Dell; ZTE; Alcatel; Fujitsu Toshiba; Acer all have offered windows phones. Its not tied to any one product....those look like Taiwan and Korea manufactures to me. Although the list is getting smaller [HTC looks likely to drop Windows phone] simply because of its massive failure....Oh and it has closed all its factories, and has moved production from Finland to China.

Samsung [Then a quarter the size of Nokia...now Nokia 10th largest smartphone manufacture] Bada; Tizen; Windows ;) and Android, I belive they are kissing ass and taking no prisoners right now.

Looks like an insane decision then however you try and spin it. The fact that is has proved to be stupid just shows how irrational it really was.

Samsung make Windows phones too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336595)

Well that's wishful at best, given Nokia don't own the OS, Microsoft do, and it doesn't make their offering unique because Samsung *also* make Windows phones.

Nokia *are* a mee-too phone, and if ever Windows had taken off, the few unique things Nokia had (like Nokia Maps) it gave to Microsoft for the money Microsoft gave them! So the claim they could avoid being a 'mee-too' by taking all the steps needed to become a mee-too product doesn't stand up to examination.

" it still looks like a rational decision."
I don't think so, I think you're trying to make a plausible sounding defense of Elop, but that defense doesn't stand up to scrutiny. They knew at launch WP7 didn't have all the features their previous Symbian phone had, they knew it cost more and didn't have the apps, or the market. The only thing it did have was a wad of short term cash.

So it made a rational decision only if you wanted a short term cash injection. I noted his march 2011 bonus package would have been $10 million if he got the share price about $17, and that's the rational I think. Destroy Nokia in long run for a short term blip, take a big bonus. (It's $4.2 BTW, the price speaks volumes about the gap between what they wanted and what he delivered).

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (2)

goruka (1721094) | about 2 years ago | (#42336629)

anyone who understands the industry, and business in general, would have made a similar decision.

I have only two simple points against your argument:

1) When Nokia was king, they used Symbian like everyone else. They were known for the quality of their devices, not for the software it ran. When the rest of the industry was dumping Symbian for Android, and given Maemo/Meego was not ready yet, the natural choice would have been to go along.
2) At this point, it is clear that, they are pumping out water and navigating towards Antarctica, so the strangeness of their situation is that their boat is freezing and Elop still refuses to change course.

So, I don't think Elop is "just a CEO", and I will keep insisting that he is either a uncapable of running a company or he has some sort of arrangement with Microsoft to make sure Nokia pushes Windows Phone even if it drives the company to the ground.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336679)

I think people (mostly US consumers) miss a few very important points about Nokia. I'll put my hand up as a Nokia fanboy only because I have the 900 and threw the iPhone and HTC phones in the bin and I'm very happy with the Lumia, I can only imagine how much better the 920 is.

Aside from my personal likes about the phone if you look at the impacts it has made in Europe further it's reliance on Microsoft has and will pose to increase NOK (which has jumped from 1.70 to 4.20 in the past few months) and I'll tell you why.

Elop, ex Microsoft. 1BN exclusive contract with Microsoft which shows the market that though Nokia didn't pick Google they did pick someone capable of delivering sound solutions, yes Micosoft, people still buy it, people still use it, though its hated by many it's still used by most. If I were an investor I'd look at Nokia being the kind of company which possesses a golden parachute in a sense, I.E if Nokia does die then who would be left around to pick up the remains? that's right Microsoft.

Nokia also has legacy in a commercial sense. It's an old company with a lot of very valuable agreements that were put in place years ago which if leveraged at the right time with the right product can put Nokia back on top. Their agreements with European and Asian providers perhaps being the most valuable.

Nokia has made bad moves in the past I'd say even today they aren't making the best moves in some areas with the desire to sell off certain assets as of late but I'd also say Elop has given a pretty indestructible, hard to lose position and that is to run Nokia with it's big brother Microsoft looking out for them.

Great Hardware (4, Interesting)

PCK (4192) | about 2 years ago | (#42336703)

Just saying that going with Android makes Nokia another "me too" company totally discounts that Noka phones are always beautifully designed and very robust.

The last two nokia phones I've had have terrible software problems but I could not fault the hardware. Where as my experience with HTC phones one had a joystick that broke and my current HD2 has had the USB power connector fail on me.

If they had gone with Android they could have easily competed with Samsung and had a good percentage of the Android smartphone market. The problem is Elop somehow managed to convince people that with Windows Mobile he could restore past glory and be like Apple. Sure they now have nearly have 100% of the Windows Mobile market, but whats that at the moment? 1% of smartphones?

The thing is Elop does n't understand the industry, he came from Microsoft. He's a Microsoft man, the question at the time should have been something like this "We have two available OS options, one has a proven record of being something customers want and the other has failed pretty badly up to now." . Which one would you go with? Sure you will have to compete with Samsung with the same OS, but they're now competing with Apple, Samsung and everyone else with a different OS and failing badly.

Regardless, it's a moot point now but I don't recall anyone at the time saying this was going to end well for Nokia.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (1)

Echemus (49002) | about 2 years ago | (#42336713)

One of the key factors that tipped the decision to go with Microsoft is that is was popular with the Network Operators. They, like Nokia, feared the increasing influence Google was having over the mobile phone market. Android was becoming a household name. They were excited by the idea that Nokia would bring out Windows Phone devices. I suspect the deals to supply the North American Operators would have been impossible if Nokia had gone with Android.

I am sure Nokia probably could have made Meego work, especially considering they were pushing their massive feature phone market towards a binary compatible Eco-system with Qt. The sad fact is that it was taking too long. Meego and the Linux feature phone was bogged down with the same bureaucracy that effectively killed Symbian. Also the strategy would have provided probably strong sales in China, Europe (apart from the UK & Germany), India and Africa. It would have struggled like everything before it in the North American market which Nokia coveted so strongly. I am sure the sales of WIndows Phone in the N.American market is being trumpeted as a huge success internally given that they are selling better than any previous offering there.

One myth that probably should die is that this was brought about by Elop. The decisions were almost certainly made by the board of directors and they found the CEO that could deliver on the strategy. Which is why there is a Canadian (and former Microsoft man) at the top now rather than a Finnish or even a European. It is why it couldn't be someone from within Nokia either. (until Elop's appointment the company's ethos was very much that Microsoft was the enemy, ie the attitude that lead to the creation of Symbian in the 1990s.) There is no way in the time from his appointment to the burning plaform memo could he have forced such a change in direction, he just isn't that good a leader.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336741)

How exactly would Nokia be screwed by Samsung, HTC etc.? Being "screwed" usually implies some kind of shady behavior. If you mean the fact that Nokia has to compete with every other mobile manufacturer then yeah, it still has to do that and get "screwed" by Samsung and Apple and everyone else who jumped on the smartphone bandwagon earlier. The only difference is now they will be compete against these same companies but with a much weaker windows offering. In addition to that, we see companies entering the android market with new offerings all the time, with varying success, so it's really hard to see your comment as anything else than a weak justification for Nokia going the Microsoft route.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336835)

Nokia, RIM, they're both dead.

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336869)

Dead. Dead dead dead dead dead.
Nokia is dead. They're just still staggering around from a fatal wound, much like RIM. It's only a matter of time for both. They're both pushing failed platforms.

RIM died by the sin of arrogance and by MBA. (My personal theory is that RIM execs fancied themselves infallible business gods, fired all the useless 'cost center' developers and replaced them with boot licking middle managers. Yeah, this is inflammatory but ask any ex-rim employee and they'll probably say I'm actually understating the problem)

Nokia had a chance to remake themselves. It was obvious that they had to ditch their old development practices that led so many dead end OSs. There are a whole lot of very detailed write-ups about the various things that went on in Nokia. Long story short: Death by feature creep, death by one piece of software doing too many things for too many people.

Anyway, just as Nokia could have been poised for their greatest victory.. Microsoft happened. They could have been the BEST andriod phone maker. They could have put out devices that made apple, samsung, and HTC look like flimsy unusable garbage. But no. They bought the lies. The hired that hatchet man. Their flagship device was obsolete before it was released, and nobody wants windows phones anyway.

RIP Nokia.
RI- No, fuck you RIM. Burn in hell. Burn in hell and may a tapdance stage be erected on your grave. (Former BES admin here)

Re:I know you won't want to hear this (1)

ultranova (717540) | about 2 years ago | (#42338209)

And whenever I post on this subject I get modded to -1 by Nokia fanboys.

Does Nokia have any fans left? Sure, Microsoft fanboys might like Nokia by proxy, but is there anyone who's specifically interested in Nokia phones? Is Nokia a brand anymore, rather than just another Microsoft reseller?

There's ups and downs for any company, but Elop has ensured that Nokia will never again be anything to choose on anything but price, thus it won't recover.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | about 2 years ago | (#42336295)

That, and it didn't help that their "sold only in a Third World hellhole" N9 phone, which ran Meego Harmattan, has a better sales record than the Windows Phones that were "meant for the First World markets".

Danemark is a "third world helhole"?

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336475)

To me it is

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336825)

yes

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336873)

Maybe it was Nokia making stupid decisions, not a Microsoft conspiracy.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336883)

The first post in a thread is about Microsoft? Clearly the post must be a paid shill and this site is overrun with astroturfers.

Oh wait... you mean it's a CRITICAL post about MS? Well then clearly it's a legit post full of insight!

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | about 2 years ago | (#42337305)

Oh Please! What did you want him to do? jump into the bloodbath that is Android and get slaughtered? Look at the numbers, Samsung and HTC are the only ones making squat in that market, the rest are bleeding to death and its obvious its gonna be a race to the bottom when it comes to Android, hell you have Walmart offering $50 Android smartphones with their prepaid plans so there is just no money there.

Basically they should have brought in somebody to clean house 5 years earlier, by the time the board got off their fat asses and brought in Elop it was already too late. The ONLY place they still had significant share was in dumbphones, which see the Walmart smartphone above to see why that market is as dead as 8-tracks, they had not one, not two, but THREE different in house OSes and NONE of them were up to competing with Android 2 and iPhone 3, which was what was out at the time. you had Symbian which looked like Palm garnet, nobody is gonna want a Win 3.x looking OS on their smartphone so that would require a rebuild from the ground up, you had MeeGo which even the MeeGo team admitted was a good year and a half from being ready and which had MAJOR bugs in the networking and memory management, to the point it would bleed memory over time and crash so no good there, and you had the Java based one that was a piggie and also leaked memory like a sieve.

So where did you want him to go? Android was a deathtrap with a spiraling race to the bottom, they didn't have the cash to massively overpay like HP did for WebOS, MeeGo was broken and needed a year and a half they didn't have and even then there was zero guarantee they could fix the serious bugs, and Apple sure as hell wasn't gonna license iOS, so where did you want them to go? Pass the money back to the shareholders and close the doors? Throw out everything and start from scratch and try to compete with the hundreds of millions the other guys were spending in R&D an their OSes?

I'm sorry but there simply was NO good call when it came to Nokia, like RIM they sat on ass too damned long and by the time they realized they were in bad shape they had already lost the war. Just as with RIM the board at Nokia simply cashed the checks instead of seeing which way the wind was blowing and they left the company with no real strategy and a bunch of half baked broken products. Like it or not the WinPhone was the ONLY OS they could get where the R&D was done, the marketing was paid for, and they could concentrate on the only strength they had left which was making good hardware. We can see now that it didn't work but back then there really wasn't any other choice, it was this or just ride the dumbphones until they went under, they simply didn't have a product that could compete.

Re:Reduced share, courtesy of Microsoft. (4, Informative)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42337389)

Samsung and HTC are the only ones making squat in that market,

Actually in context of this article, LG and Acer have dropped windows and are now profitable. HTC looks to becoming a Windows only vendor. Sony [Larger than HTC] gains in Android...are offsetting its Windows PC losses. LG is profitable again after dropping Windows. Lenovo; Huawei [also Larger than HTC], ZTE and Lenovo have made massive gains in marketshare....Nokia is now tenth behind all these manufactures. All this in a GROWING market :)

They make massive profits...not as high a margin as Apple, but then that recently lost 25% of its market cap simply because nobody believes that could continue.

Nokia needs to start making Android phones (2)

Racerdude (1006357) | about 2 years ago | (#42336043)

Nokia's share will continue to drop for a while longer. Probably until they rethink their strategy and start producing Android phones. Windows Phone is a dead end.

Re:Nokia needs to start making Android phones (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336179)

Drop? Nokia shares are more than $4 from $1.63 in July.

Yes, making Android phones worked for HTC. LOL

Re:Nokia needs to start making Android phones (2)

Robert Zenz (1680268) | about 2 years ago | (#42336297)

Yeah...don't forget to mention that they were at $6 in January.

Yes they did (2)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336513)

Drop? Nokia shares are more than $4 from $1.63 in July.

...and Down from $9 look forward to your dead cat bounce RIM is having one too :). Ironically HTC which rose to prominence on the back of Android is dumping Microsoft, because unlike Android will not support its high-definition phones.

Re:Nokia needs to start making Android phones (2)

AvitarX (172628) | about 2 years ago | (#42336619)

Share as in Market Share, not shares as in Share Price.

$am$ung. (-1, Troll)

Andy Prough (2730467) | about 2 years ago | (#42336045)

Or $$ for short. Move over M$, $am$ung is now the company that needs Apple to survive as a competitor in order to avoid anti-trust pitfalls.

Re:$am$ung. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336135)

Anti-trust concerns usually don't show up until companies start to abuse their monopoly status.
We know that Microsoft was built on dirty play and winning at all costs from the very beginning. Samsung have yet to prove if they are run by complete assholes.

Re:$am$ung. (0)

asshole felcher (2655639) | about 2 years ago | (#42336165)

Samsung is run by assholes. You just haven't noticed. Yet.

My comments were not $erious. (1, Redundant)

Andy Prough (2730467) | about 2 years ago | (#42336421)

I have no idea what their anti-trust $ituation is. Just messing around with the $am$ung and $$ spellings, a play on Micro$oft's prior marketplace domination of Apple. $orry if I wasn't clear about my angle on thi$.

Re:My comments were not $erious. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337245)

$top being $o $tupid. Replacing an "s" with a "$" is the most idiotic, childish thing to do here. All tech companies are corporations and their bottom line is to turn a profit. Pointing out the obvious doesn't make anyone seem smarter.

Truly $orry. (3, Funny)

Andy Prough (2730467) | about 2 years ago | (#42337445)

I'm $orry I was $o $tupid. I know that I am no longer worthy of having $la$hdot po$ting privilege$. I know I cannot truly hope for forgivene$$. I can only hope that my $orry tale will $erve a$ an example for other$.

$ Using it smartly (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42337455)

Using $ is not stupid its for emphasis. It was mostly a thing done for Microsoft, because they print money, and yet offer very little of real value for it due to their monopoly status. They have become a utility. Its one of the reasons why nobody wants them on their phones. I use $ in Microsoft to emphasise where Microsoft is making money for nothing an example would be "Sales down, Micro$oft raises prices radically" http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/03/sales-down-microsoft-raises-prices-radically/#.UNHwpNE49yA [semiaccurate.com]

Re:$am$ung. (2)

mk1004 (2488060) | about 2 years ago | (#42336677)

This reminds me of the early PC days, where one hardware manufacturer would look like they would be set to dominate for awhile, then crash and burn, another manufacturer would look like a winner, rinse and repeat. Samsung is looking like the 800 pound gorilla right now, but things could, and probably will, change quickly.

HP (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336885)

This reminds me of the early PC days, where one hardware manufacturer would look like they would be set to dominate for awhile, then crash and burn, another manufacturer would look like a winner, rinse and repeat.

There are lots of failed PC manufactures, but then you have the #1 manufacturer HP which has dominated for which has been top five since at least 1996. To be fair Elop had to call Nokias current products crap, and pick the OS as popular as Clowns with maggots for eyes, before it being dethroned from No.1 position. Stick to this failing position even after it had proved a failure.

The one thing I know about Samsung (3, Interesting)

Andy Prough (2730467) | about 2 years ago | (#42337179)

is that they know how to build a massive international product line from the ground up with minimal expense, and they rarely over-extend themselves. I've known some Korean engineers that worked for them, and the company does not seem to be subject to the same Wall Street pressures that cause so many companies to shoot themselves in the face. If they decide to get into a business, they have a solid plan that they stick to. If they decide not to get into a business, they won't be persuaded no matter what the latest whims of the consumer market would seem to dictate.

I guess I would call them the anti-Sony.

Best HW, so so SW (1)

cinghiale (2269602) | about 2 years ago | (#42336049)

I still mostly like Nokia hardware, except for some minor quibbles. Unfortunately it got itself hitched to one platform. The current CEO should get voted out. http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/nokias-elop-hints-more-lumia-windows-phones-verizon/2012-12-18 [fiercewireless.com]

Re:Best HW, so so SW (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336571)

I still mostly like Nokia hardware, except for some minor quibbles. Unfortunately it got itself hitched to one platform. The current CEO should get voted out.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/nokias-elop-hints-more-lumia-windows-phones-verizon/2012-12-18 [fiercewireless.com]

Its half off-topic, but I was watching cnbc "Ballmer another Mcicrosoft Fail" http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000136311&play=1 [cnbc.com] and interesting right at the end it Ed Maguire says "ther have been discussions of stephen elop as a successor. ". I spat me coffee.

Re:Best HW, so so SW (2)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 2 years ago | (#42336705)

I still mostly like Nokia hardware, except for some minor quibbles. Unfortunately it got itself hitched to one platform. The current CEO should get voted out.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/nokias-elop-hints-more-lumia-windows-phones-verizon/2012-12-18 [fiercewireless.com]

Its half off-topic, but I was watching cnbc "Ballmer another Mcicrosoft Fail" http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000136311&play=1 [cnbc.com] and interesting right at the end it Ed Maguire says "ther have been discussions of stephen elop as a successor. ". I spat me coffee.

When that happens, then maybe it really will be the year of the linux on the desktop!

Re:Best HW, so so SW (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336751)

When that happens, then maybe it really will be the year of the linux on the desktop!

Don't you mean Windows on the Tablet/Phone.

Re:Best HW, so so SW (1)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 2 years ago | (#42336925)

When that happens, then maybe it really will be the year of the linux on the desktop!

Don't you mean Windows on the Tablet/Phone.

No, Elop has already screwed up the phone for Nokia, if he were in charge of Microsoft, he would just screw up the remaining strongholds, dwindling as they are. It is pretty obvious that Microsoft is betting on tablets, but in the process of releasing Windows 8, they appear to be abandoning desktops. That leaves an opportunity for somebody else in the desktop market. Unless Apple is going to release OS X for non Apple hardware, it might as well be linux. Granted, the future desktop market will be smaller than in the past, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be profitable. Too bad IBM dropped Lotus Symphony right at the time that Microsoft was switching to a pay as you go system. Corporate America could probably be convinced to use an open source office suite backed by IBM. Same with an open source OS (besides, they already do support it on their server installations).

The real problem with Balmer and Elop is that unlike Gates, they don't have the vision. Apple needs to worry about that, too.

Gates is around (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42337133)

Ignoring the fact that Gates is very much still a force in Microsoft. I have never seen "Linux on The desktop" used by anyone who uses Linux on the Desktop, because the "implied massive market share" it needs was/is never a problem, because of its open source nature.

As for it being another opportunity for Linux to grab market share. Linux continues to grow market share albeit slowly, and this was set to continue anyway, but it already has Steam; Diminishing importance of Office on its side.

but as I said my personal experience will change very little. Linux continues to be exciting and evolve. I'm personally looking forward to trying out E17 this Friday.

Whilst it's easy to knock the MS angle here... (5, Insightful)

HerculesMO (693085) | about 2 years ago | (#42336061)

Really it's a changing demographic that Nokia hasn't kept up with. They sold lots of 'dumbphones' and 'feature phones' in an era now, where consumers want smartphones. They were late to the game, and as a result their behemoth status doesn't help them.

That said, I have a Lumia 920 and really, really like it. OS aside, it takes amazingly good pictures and I can beat a person to death with it and not have to worry about whether it works afterwards. Those also, were my requirements for buying a phone... good camera and durable. I have kids, kind of a necessity.

Re:Whilst it's easy to knock the MS angle here... (0)

Eunuchswear (210685) | about 2 years ago | (#42336313)

You don't actualy know what a "smartphone" is, do you?

They sold the *MOST* smartphones (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336411)

You can pretend Symbian phones are 'feature' phones, they aren't, they're full smartphones. They had the top slot for smart phones until Elop took over. Just not in the US. He was supposed to deliver their US market, instead he took away their world market, sacked the OS side, signed up to Microsoft for a short term wad of cash, destroyed Symbian by announcing its future planned death.

Yet they could just make Android phones and its a booming market they're familiar with. So why don't they? Elop won't let them presumably, or he's got them into a poison pill contract with MS perhaps.

It's such a head scratcher, you can see he's a failure, the numbers are crystal clear, the dumb noobie mistakes he makes, the graphs don't lie, at what point are the board going to eject this idiot before the shareholders eject them???

Re:They sold the *MOST* smartphones (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#42336437)

"You can pretend Symbian phones are 'feature' phones, they aren't, they're full smartphones"

A smartphone these days means touchscreen , not just the ability to install apps. You've been able to do that on feature phones for at least 10 years.

Step awasy from the iPhone (3, Informative)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336737)

"You can pretend Symbian phones are 'feature' phones, they aren't, they're full smartphones"

A smartphone these days means touchscreen , not just the ability to install apps. You've been able to do that on feature phones for at least 10 years.

You are ware that Symbian not only was full touch-screen, but they outsold iPhones 2-1 before Elop's Memo. A quick look http://smartphones.techcrunch.com/d/z/Symbian [techcrunch.com]

Re:Step awasy from the iPhone (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337823)

Symbiam was a piece of $hit of OS. Absolutely the worse OS every coming out in the last 20 years.

"In house" almost C++, fscked up API, stitched together (shell scripts, calling batch files, calling Perl scripts, calling Java, calling patched up cygwin GCC toolchain) development environment, piss poor documentation.

That, and the fugliness of the smart phones Nokia spitted out in the last 12 years. El Cheapo plastic, UGLY design, coupled with the fscked up OS described above.

They deserve to die, and so is Nokia to having supported that POS for so long.

Re:Step awasy from the iPhone (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42337885)

Symbiam was a piece of $hit of OS. Absolutely the worse OS every coming out in the last 20 years.

...and Ironically still outsells Windows Phone 2.3% to 2%

Re:They sold the *MOST* smartphones (3, Insightful)

plover (150551) | about 2 years ago | (#42337219)

Bull. The "burning memo" was an honest assessment of Nokia's relevance: they weren't, and they knew it. A loyal but small group of people liked Symbian OS, but no one else cared about it, and Nokia knew they had *nothing* of lasting value going in the smartphone market. They knew exactly what their cash cow was: it was the ordinary mobile phones that they sold by the millions. The trick is that when people are buying non-smartphones, they're making the decision based on price above all else. Those customers don't care much about durability or features or any other differentiators, because they don't have the money to make a different choice. There are a billion of those people on the planet. And once you settle for customers who are buying on price, you're in a commodity market, where the lowest price will dominate.

A Chinese foundry started making cheap chipsets available that enabled any factory in Shenzhen to crank out an adequate phone for about $20 per copy. Since Nokia's phones cost them about $50 to make, it was obvious to them that their cash cow was going to stop producing. Doesn't matter who the CEO is, Nokia was facing a long steep slope downward.

So they had two options: they could try to lower the costs on their cheaper phones, or they could try to find a way to produce a differentiating phone again. Competing with the Chinese on price is impossible, because the playing field isn't level - lacking adequate governmental oversight they have shown they will pollute, they won't provide safety equipment for their workers, they'll copy or steal R&D instead of paying for it, and they'll pay their labor a lot less than Europe. If they can't compete on price, that leaves creating a differentiating phone, one that makes people want it because of its cool features. The marketplace for phones has proven the only way to compete on features instead of price is to play in the smartphone market, and that market is very tough: Apple and Android have both shown to the world that you don't just sell a phone anymore, you sell a phone connected to an ecosystem, a marketplace with thousands of apps. So if you want to enter the smartphone world, you have to bring a smartphone OS and you have to entice hundreds of independent developers to port their popular apps to your platform. That means convincing hundreds of people like you and me that Symbian was going to be wildly profitable and all the porting expenses would be worth it because I would be selling my apps to a market of millions. I don't know about you, but they couldn't bribe me enough to believe a story like that. Lots of app developers can't afford to port to multiple platforms today, and produce only Android or iPhone apps. If they already can't afford to gamble on a proven platform (iOS if they're Android, Android if they're iOS), what would entice them to gamble on an unproven platform?

So instead of investing the billions of dollars it would take to build yet another smartphone ecosystem with no guarantee of success, a different tactic is to stop trying to build your own, and to buy into an existing OS and marketplace instead. Microsoft has the money and OS to realistically provide a potential third marketplace, but it's a gamble and they know it. Microsoft is certainly trying: they've spent the money on the software and are spending it on the marketing. They're out there convincing developers to port their apps. They're providing the tools to build them. They're convincing non phone Windows developers to create Windows phone apps. They're cutting deals with individual industries to provide custom phones for specialized purposes. And a few customers are even buying them. But will Nokia see enough customers before they go out of business? Who knows?

What I do know is that Elop is in a tough spot, and that changing CEOs isn't going to change their position. Maybe what they need is to start producing a different product, like car electronics or cheap and simple home automation systems.

Re:They sold the *MOST* smartphones (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42338487)

Bah, this is MBA's shit speech.

Ecosystem? This in plain (put your natural language here) is said to be a touch screen (a showcase de facto) and a hidden POS terminal. Fortunatelly, consumers are already installing not so much variety of apps. The same that happened with Window's start menu.

Apple? Hey, world is not just USA, and given the economical prospects for this country, I would say that it will become almost irrelevant .

Re:They sold the *MOST* smartphones (3, Insightful)

PRMan (959735) | about 2 years ago | (#42338599)

A Chinese foundry started making cheap chipsets available that enabled any factory in Shenzhen to crank out an adequate phone for about $20 per copy. Since Nokia's phones cost them about $50 to make, it was obvious to them that their cash cow was going to stop producing. Doesn't matter who the CEO is, Nokia was facing a long steep slope downward.

Or they could have started making high-end Android phones. They are a well-known brand name. Few people would have batted an eye buying a Nokia for $199 when HTC was $99 or Nokia for $99 when HTC was free with contract. Nokia=indestructible quality in most people's eyes and if they just hired the right design studio, they were all set to compete with Samsung and Apple on the big stage, leaving the middle and lower tiers to the LGs and HTCs of the world.

Transition (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336601)

They sold lots of 'dumbphones' and 'feature phones

Actually prior to Elops memo Nokia was making the transition tio smartphones faster than its competitors. In smartphones it was twice the size of Apple...and four times the size of Samsung...and GROWING. Nokia had problems this was not one of then, and its one ironically Android seems the best tool at solving.

least of your troubles (1)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | about 2 years ago | (#42336635)

You can basically beat a person to death with any phone if you are capable to do it with an N920. You won't have to worry about the phone working afterwards. In case you weren't informed, the phone became a murder weapon and it will be confiscated regardless of it's functionality. I would suggest you use a less expensive piece of electronics to bludgeon someone senseless, it's less of a financial loss that way.

Re:Whilst it's easy to knock the MS angle here... (1)

organgtool (966989) | about 2 years ago | (#42337333)

That said, I have a Lumia 920 and really, really like it. OS aside, it takes amazingly good pictures and I can beat a person to death with it and not have to worry about whether it works afterwards. Those also, were my requirements for buying a phone... good camera and durable. I have kids, kind of a necessity.

Note to self: when I have kids, it will become necessary to buy electronic devices durable enough to beat them to death. :)

Because Nokia is tough (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336065)

It lasted that many years as the top mobile phone because Nokia is tough... I mean like REALLY TOUGH. You ever thrown a nokia phone to a person?, it can kill the person and the following ten behind. It has been proven that throwing a nokia to an incoming train will not only stop the train but it will make it go backwards really fast. Several ships have sunk because somebody dropped their nokia on it. One time I got hit by a car. Thank god I had a nokia on my pocket. The car blew up and everything in a 10 mile radius.. except me and my nokia. Aliens do not attack us because we have nokia. When they say we can "talk things over", yeap, nokia fight!. Nokia stands for Nuclear Omnipresent Killing Immensely All.

Re:Because Nokia is tough (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336625)

It lasted that many years as the top mobile phone because Nokia is tough

They closed the factories, and now have a third party manufacture in China. So Another advantage lost.

The problem with being #1 (1)

happy_place (632005) | about 2 years ago | (#42336111)

...is it's a slow death spiral of constant consumer disappointments and unmet expectations... with no obvious competitor to steal from.

Re:The problem with being #1 (1)

bogaboga (793279) | about 2 years ago | (#42336363)

The bigger problem in my opinion is to have to face the fact that any movement has to be in one direction - DOWN!! And that's when people notice.

Re:The problem with being #1 (1)

pep939 (1957678) | about 2 years ago | (#42336711)

Just wait for war to break out in Korea, Samsung will be facing down pretty quickly!

Not for those you are Number 1 (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336649)

...is it's a slow death spiral of constant consumer disappointments and unmet expectations... with no obvious competitor to steal from.

I'm not really seeing that from Google right now, who are rather bullish right now. HAve they announced they are selling 1.5 million a day yet ?? Or Samsung who are too busy printing money :)

An unexpected journey (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | about 2 years ago | (#42336223)

Sammy Mobes is on the move. Since I read that phrase on /. I can't get it out of my head.

I don't feel sorry for Nokia (4, Informative)

Viol8 (599362) | about 2 years ago | (#42336261)

They became #1 and got complacent and lazy with only half hearted efforts to push and market anything that wasn't a feature phone and with half finished OS's running on them. They could have been Samsung if they weren't too busy counting their money when Apple brought out the iPhone and had pulled their fingers out and produced a serious competitor.

No they didn't (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42336671)

If they weren't too busy counting their money when Apple brought out the iPhone and had pulled their fingers out and produced a serious competitor.

They had a strategy it was Meamo [and QT] and it was ready years before the iPhone, but they abandoned it for Microsoft which worked out really really badly.

Re:No they didn't (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337351)

Your are making his point, they had the ability but never released it. However you have a timing issue iPhone was released in 2007 and Nokia did not start Windows phone until 2011, so in 4 years they did nothing.

Put your iPhone down (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 2 years ago | (#42337531)

Your are making his point, they had the ability but never released it. However you have a timing issue iPhone was released in 2007 and Nokia did not start Windows phone until 2011, so in 4 years they did nothing.

Nokia not only had smartphones but actually had a marketshare of smartphones twice that Apple and four times of Samsung when Elop destroyed the company with that memo. I know its popular to pretend that iPhone is the only smartphone, but its market share never went above 25% its now down to below 15%.

Re:I don't feel sorry for Nokia (4, Insightful)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 2 years ago | (#42336811)

They became #1 and got complacent and lazy with only half hearted efforts to push and market anything that wasn't a feature phone and with half finished OS's running on them. They could have been Samsung if they weren't too busy counting their money when Apple brought out the iPhone and had pulled their fingers out and produced a serious competitor.

Actually, that is called the "fat cat" syndrome and many leaders in their field go through it, particularly tech fields. When companies worry more about protecting their existing profits and product lines instead of innovating, others can come up and knock them off their perch. Happened with IBM, Microsoft, now it looks like Apple might be going through it, plus a myriad of other companies. It isn't just for tech companies, either. The US auto industry went through it in the 60s and 70s and now play second fiddle to Honda and Toyota.

To remain a leader in a field, one has to continually lead. To use an american football analogy, once you sit back in a prevent defense, you might protect against the big play, but you enable your competitors to chip away at you until they no longer need a big play, just a short play.

Fat cats either have to go on a diet and become lean, like IBM did, or they simply starve and die, like most others do.

Re:I don't feel sorry for Nokia (1, Informative)

swb (14022) | about 2 years ago | (#42337327)

What innovators are knocking Apple off their perch?

Based on iPhone 5 sales and iPad Mini sales, Apple doesn't seem to be hurting per se.

I think they've made some mistakes recently -- Maps isn't what it should have been (but is less bad than the media hype) and I think the Lightning connector introduction was handled very poorly (3 months after iPhone 5 was released, there are very few accessories available that use it).

Philosophically, I disagree with some of the constraints placed on it (no removable storage, no bluetooth mouse support) and design goals (ie, thinner and lighter seems valued over battery capacity).

But it's hard to call Samsung an "innovator" knocking Apple off their perch -- the OS they get from Google, and their hardware isn't obviously superior to Apple's (without getting into an argument as to whether phone screen size is a technology or a design). They mainly are a big company, capable of integrating top-line technologies vs. coming up with any kind of innovation.

Re:I don't feel sorry for Nokia (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337713)

"Lead" involves more than just sales.

Microsoft still makes a lot of sales.

Elop wants to make RT tablets now (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42336283)

Latest news from Nokia is that they are in talks to make Windows RT Tablets, the flailing Windows tablet. I think it's pretty clear who Elop represents at this point and it ain't Nokia.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/19/nokia-windows-rt-tablet-hints/

So they could, right away built a competitive Android phone, just like every little player is doing, only they can make decent hardware still (well until Elop sells that side to Microsoft for a handful of magic beans, which I think is a given at this point), and Nokia still has its marketing. So they could still turn this Elop mess around.

But not with Elop in charge.

Re:Elop wants to make RT tablets now (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | about 2 years ago | (#42336981)

Yeah, Nokia does (did?) make quality hardware. I only wish they would create an android Handset. I owned a small Nokia phone and that thing had awesome GPS reception. I've had a few other phones and the GPS on all others but the Nokia was completely worthless. Plus the Nokia had their own maps built in with freely downloadable maps. I mean, Google maps is nice and all, but I don't want to be constantly downloading stuff just to view the maps. Nokia could have been a relevant player if they had abandoned their old OS and just went with Android. But they held out too long with Symbian, and then made the terrible decision of latching onto MS.

Most Samsung phones run Java (2)

sproketboy (608031) | about 2 years ago | (#42336603)

With all the talk about WinRT, Android and IOS - worth noting....

Losing #1 (1)

Kingkaid (2751527) | about 2 years ago | (#42336701)

Well that took a lot longer than expected.

The lesson every mega corporation seems to forget (2)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about 2 years ago | (#42337267)

Being #1 isn't some birthright bestowed upon you by God. Once you start taking it for granted and your customers for granted, it's over.

hey apple , are the lawsuits working? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42337347)

I bet a hollywood apple person right after reading this creating enough hot steam to power his local city....

In Related News (3, Interesting)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 2 years ago | (#42337673)

Nokia has been the #1 phone manufacturer. Huh. I must get too much of my news from Slashdot.

(my first phone was a TDMA Nokia and it was a beast - practically unbreakable with good speakers and microphone; how I miss the quality of those days).

Finland (2)

porjo (964384) | about 2 years ago | (#42338759)

I recently had some Finnish people staying with me and when I mentioned Nokia to them they look rather depressed. Nokia was at one time a real source of pride for the nation and now....well it's just a bit embarrassing. I cheered them up by talking about Linus Torvalds instead :)
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