30 Days Is Too Long: Animated Rant About Windows 8 1110
First time accepted submitter Funksaw writes "Back in 2007, I wrote three articles on Ubuntu 6, Mac OS X 10.4, and Windows Vista, which were all featured on Slashdot.
Now, with the release of Windows 8, I took a different tactic and produced an animated video.
Those expecting me to bust out the performance tests and in-depth use of the OS are going to be disappointed. While that was my intention coming into the project, I couldn't even use Windows 8 long enough to get to the in-depth technical tests. In my opinion, Windows 8 is so horribly broken that it should be recalled."
Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:3, Insightful)
" Windows 8 is so horribly broken that it should be recalled."
Now, forgive me, but you can totally enter into windows 8 from a standard windows interface (as I understand it). That and, data shows, people are becoming familiar with it. Put that onto anecdotal evidence that younger individuals pick up the interface just fine and I'm inclined to think you knew what you thought before ever using windows 8.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, once you've seen what was called Metro before Microsoft discovered that they were going to have to give it another name, and you've googled for `uh..how do I do stuff on my computer like..uh..get the control panel up...shut it down...exit full screen mode on that ugly application` you'll find the Windows key, which allows you entry into a whole new front end, which is a little like Windows 7 only the stuff at the bottom of the screen is missing. You have to move the mouse around in the corners and the
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:5, Insightful)
There's literally a fucking tutorial that shows you how to access most of what you mentioned
How are new users of Windows 8 expected to discover that this tutorial exists before they end up accidentally opening weather and not knowing how to make it go away?
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
shows you the charms bar opening if you move the mouse to the top right
So why does the charms bar visually slide in from the right center instead of sliding in from the top right corner?
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:4, Informative)
Doorway amnesia, brought to you by Window 8 (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows 8 is now about giving each application your full attention
Which leads to doorway amnesia, as I pointed out in another comment [slashdot.org]. I don't want to give attention to an application; I want to give attention to a task that involves the use of several applications.
The Start screen is an overview of everything you have available and live tiles allow them to each give you different types of information allowing you to decide if they are worth your time or not.
So why can't I have this Start screen take up only half the screen, so that the other applications involved in this task remain at least partly visible to retain context in my brain?
The best way to describe what's been done is that windows is now more about flipping through a book
A task may require (and often does require) more than one book.
and less about putting all the pages spread out on your desk.
In other words, as the video points out, it's Microsoft Window, singular, not Microsoft Windows, plural.
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:4, Informative)
[The tutorial in the out-of-box experience of Windows 8] is the first thing that appears when you boot the operating system.
Is it displayed only when the PC's owner boots the operating system for the first time, or also when another user of the same computer boots the operating system for the first time?
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that the "magic button" to close full screen apps is an archaic key combo from windows 3.1 is a key indicator of how bad this interface is. I mean alt -f4 is a great shortcut key, but for that to be the great "answer " for closing full screen apps. Yes, I count that as a fail.
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:5, Insightful)
If an average computer user needs a tutorial to figure out how to navigate the 'desktop', it means your UI is not very discoverable.
An undiscoverable UI is a horrible UI.
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, people are amazingly adaptable.
That doesn't mean what they adapt to is any good. You can create the most horrible UI of all times, intentionally, and if you force them then people will learn to use it. Having to use it because of work or because you know nothing else is a kind of force.
I haven't used W8 yet, so I don't have an opinion. But I have used most other versions of windows, and the UI is pretty stupid, inconsistent and basically cobbled together. Always has been. Don't see why W8 would be any different all of a sudden.
Re:Saw what he wanted to see. (Score:5, Insightful)
"But I have used most other versions of windows, and the UI is pretty stupid, inconsistent and basically cobbled together. Always has been. Don't see why W8 would be any different all of a sudden."
Prepare to be surprised and blown away, and not in a good way.
It kind of reminds me of people on here when Slashdot first launched.
"I've just installed Red Hat 3 on my machine, and it can't find my CD drive despite the fact I installed it from a CD /dev/cdrom /mount/cdrom . You must be a complete idiot if you can't figure that out."
"That's really easy. You just fire up xterm, type su, enter your root password, then type mount -t iso9660
A bit later
"Great, that works. However I can't get the CD out of the drive now
"You need to unmount it first you idiot"
Linux has moved on since those days. It has improved, and is much more user friendly now. Windows 8 is a major step backwards.
Looks like a zero punctuation short (Score:4, Funny)
This video shows that you just can't copy Yahtzee Croshaw without his motor mouth rambling, it just doesn't feel right :D
Captcha: copied :D
Really? (Score:3, Informative)
One of the Best Usability Rants I've Ever Seen (Score:5, Informative)
Re:One of the Best Usability Rants I've Ever Seen (Score:5, Informative)
Those guys get upset when we don't spell write.
As someone who has done plenty of criticizing (and received it), I can say that we need to get our facts straight when we do it.
That said, I'm a HUGE proponent of usability. I think tecchies, as a species, tend to really suck at it (I include myself, there). I am constantly amazed at how "stupid" my users are.
Except...they can be doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, teachers, etc. Real smart folks.
When a whole bunch of real smart folks make the same mistake, over and over again, then it's probably a real good idea to examine the usability of the interface.
This book [jnd.org] changed the way I view the world (Don Norman is Nielsen's buddy). Ever since I read it, I learned a new appreciation for human interface.
Serving a constituency that tends to take personal frustration and embarrassment out in rather pithy fashion [youtube.com] helps to keep me focused on making UX accessible.
First World Problems (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:First World Problems (Score:4, Insightful)
The ribbon is a horrible UI design. At least with menu (bars) you can SEE ALL your choices. WIth the ribbon if your window width is too small you don't. It also completely sucks that you can't customize it like you could with a REAL tool bar.
With that said I actually like the Ribbon on OS X Office because I have BOTH -- menu bars AND ribbon. Forcing users to only work ONE way tells me the UI designer was an retard who doesn't understand HOW people use computers.
Re: (Score:3)
At least with menu (bars) you can SEE ALL your choices. WIth the ribbon if your window width is too small you don't.
Ribbon starts removing functions from view when the windows is less than 1024 pixels wide (depending on the specific ribbon. Most are much less than this). According to stat counter, this accounts for about 15% of internet users.
Further, with menu bars, you can see all the menu options, just as you can in a ribbon (e.g. File, Edit, Insert etc. in a menu bar vs. Home, Inset, Design etc. for the Word ribbon). The menu entries within the menu headings are equivalent to the functions on the ribbon. Within th
Re:First World Problems (Score:5, Insightful)
.
You might have 8 or 10 application menus. Each of these menus might take up 25% of the screen when you display it. Crunching the math you have several whole screens of menu info....jammed into a "ruler" that takes up a fifth or less of the screen. It's a simple math problem.
I've embraced PKZIP since the PKARC and even ARC days, but interface compression is not my thing.
Re:First World Problems (Score:5, Insightful)
Ribbon are incredibly intuitive.
Actually that is part of the problem. The Ribbon isn't intuitive. Well more the organization, but I go to the insert menu to insert something. But no that command is on another tab. I go to the data tab to work with some data, again the item is on another tab.
Just because non computer people use them immediately (what else are they supposed to do?) doesn't mean they are better. A ribbon is basically a sticky menu.
Re:First World Problems (Score:5, Interesting)
The ribbon UI is so awesome, that Visual Studio doesn't have it (thank God) So the people who actually *write Microsoft software* don't like the ribbon.
So there's that.
Re: (Score:3)
Metro does take a while to get used to but like the ribbon it grows on you after a while.
The ribbon doesn't grow on you, I loathe it now, just as much as I loathed it when it was being designed.
Metro has a couple of problems. It works ok with a touch device, but not so much with a mouse. This needs to be solved.
A lack of a start menu is HUGE for people who primarily use the desktop (and don't go into this 'use only half the OS thing, some programs are desktop only) Metro is a very poor replacement for a start menu. And not just because it is full screen.
Solving these two issues will make
Re:First World Problems (Score:5, Interesting)
But it's a lot easier than punch cards (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of us started on paper tape and punch cards. Windows 8, Unity, whatever. It's not going to stay the same forever. Cry me a river!
It's not Vista (Score:5, Insightful)
Coming from someone who has had a deep and long dislike of Microsoft, Windows 8 is not that bad. Metro is half baked and feels like it was tossed in at the last moment. Other than that, I have had less issues with Windows 8 than its predecessors.
Now then, what were they thinking with Metro? I have no idea. It feels half assed, and adds no value. The screen looks like someone's idea for webcasting push technology from the late 1990's.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Dunno... (Score:5, Informative)
There's inevitably going to be fans for any OS, even windows ME.
Since we have a Windows 7 slate that I really wanted to upgrade (read: make usable, as 7 is pants on a slate) daughter and I went to an Office Despot that had Win8 running on a big touch screen monitor, and I tried to get it to do stuff. Never touched Win8 before, but had worked on most previous Windows operating systems, (starting with 3.1, 3.51, 95, 98 SE, NT 4, 2000, ME (shudder), XP (still using it) and 7, plus experience with server 2000 and 2008) how hard could it be?
I massaged the screen for about ten minutes and couldn't get it to do anything useful. Oh, you can touch a tile and something happens, but it's easy to get into a mode where it's not at all obvious how to get out. GUIs, especially touch GUIs, should have visual cues on how to navigate, or at very least do things in consistent ways.
After awhile, daughter pushed me aside, as she has experience with Windows 7, Android and iOS on touchscreen, she wanted to take a crack at it. She figured out how to get out from where I had gotten stuck, but not much else after another ten minutes of pawing at the thing. Like 7, there seems to be little cabalistic gestures one has to learn to perform certain actions in 8, and they don't seem to be similar to what you had to do in 7. We finally gave up.
Mind you, I'm sure it's possible to learn Windows 8. The point is, it's not at all obvious how to use it.
Re: (Score:3)
The only thing you have to learn is to go to a corner. Lower left corner to Start. Top left corner to switch between applications. Right corners for search (no matter what (metro) appliation you're in, settings, etc.
It's new, rather than the same old stuff... so I expect there to be a little learning...
Re: (Score:3)
So, there's two different ways to do things depending on whether you're using a mouse or a touch gesture. I'm sure there are reasons why they had to do it that way, but it strikes me as incoherent.
One of the biggest issues I had was that there's no visual cues as to what you're supposed to touch. Buttons and labels look exactly the same.
Which is why I'm not an early adopter! (Score:3)
the short version of this (Score:3)
If you HAVE to deal with a Win8 system then install classic shell and be done with it
If you think the measure of things is how a 3 year old does them then i would suggest your choices are a bit different beginning with say your underwear,
note for MS please restore the Start menu/Orb at least as an option for SP1
note for IT managers please allow things like Classic Shell so that your folks can get WORK done.
Great Comments about Windows 8 (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, he discusses the four c's: control, conveyance, continuity, and context, and gives examples about why all of these are horribly back-leveled from earlier Windows versions. Most damningly, he points to reduced control by the user...which is a trend that seems to have permeated through Windows since Windows 95. He summarizes by referring to someone else who observed that Windows 8 was really designed for content consumption by the user rather than content creation as personal computer devices were originally intended for. Content consumption is probably the main purpose of a tablet but we will still need content creation equipment and Windows 8 appears poorly suited for that, while not offering any alternative due to ending sales of Windows 7. His most damning comment is that Windows 8 is "user hostile." The best thing about his comments is that they will (hopefully) start the discussion about what capabilities need to be retained in future personal computers and future Windows versions.
Love the Settings part. (Score:5, Insightful)
How is a person supposed to know what to type to find a thing that isn't listed? This has frustrated me at times in Ubuntu also. Why the menu hate?
Is it just me, is this guy the voice... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
on the Princess Bride? INCONCEIVABLE!
Awesome! I know I have a weird voice, but there's worse things to compare it to.
No Hyperbole Please (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought in a general sense, as a community, we'd moved past cheering for nerd-rage melodrama.
Windows 8 makes a few gaffes, but they're largely the same problems that Windows 7, Office 2007, and others started introducing. It can be annoying, but it's the same stuff taken to a reasonable next step, as well as UI unification between desktop, laptop, and tablet.
None of that is necessarily a fun thing, but OSX has been pushing many similar UI changes for longer. A lot of people were unhappy with Lion's increasing similarity and unification with iOS, just in case anybody actually forgot that in less than a year.
The bottom line is, 8 works in the same ways as 7, just with some added complexity. The easiest way to almost entirely remove that complexity? A start menu replacer. People recommend Start8, ViStart, and others. My personal recommendation is "Classic Shell". It works exactly the same as it used to on Vista+, except it adds the "Apps" to the start menu as well.
But even so, why wouldn't somebody be able to figure this out? The video author was squealing about how the start menu "hurt him deeply". Trackpads aren't really supposed to do "touch gestures" by default. It's vendor opt-in. Logitech opted in, and chances are, this guy didn't install whatever WIndows 8 drivers or control panel may or may not be available. Either way, it's a vendor issue. Just like 'no install/repair/recovery/etc' disk is a vendor issue. If you don't want vendor issues, you don't buy things from those vendors.
All of the UIs Windows (95-W8), OSX, KDE, iOS, Android, etc are different. What everything has in common is that there are roughly 6 different things you have to know about each, then consistency covers all of the multi-step operations, or using various applications. Occasionally you get something that breaks out of that a bit (Office 2007+). There are so many "advanced" things, like command line digging, reinstalling from scratch, that the overwhelming majority of people will simply ask a friend for help with or pay a PC repair company. That's pretty much regardless of operating system.
But I digress. The rant is pretty simply over the top drama. It should sell itself as entertainment (if it at least had any humor), not as something relevant to 'tech news'. It's not politically correct to mention, but this guy sounds and acts like the stereotypical nerd, going into a panicky, narcissistic rage about primarily one change that, overall, isn't that significant to day to day use, AND for which there exist free, open source, and easy to use workarounds, while still obtaining benefits of a newer OS.
He himself admits he only tried it for 30 minutes, in a coffee shop, and didn't bother one iota further.
Personally, I've been using it for 4 months (and preview versions before that) with NO issues that would meaningfully impact your average, or above-average user. All of my personal complaints are exceedingly specific and technical, and have mostly been taken care of by various updates.
And, in the interest of disclosure, I'm not the kind of person who likes Windows, or most other OSes, in a general sense.
I prod and patch kernels, have no problems custom-rolling EFI stub-only boot on Linux, etc. What I really miss, is being able to run highly customized FreeBSD and still use ~90% of my Windows games at full speed. That's mostly a hardware/driver/wine(!) issue, though.
So when I say I'm using Windows 8 in the exact same manner as I use Windows 7, I'm not exaggerating. I actually like the availability of some of the W8 new features. I middle click on the start button (or use Shift+Windows) if I want to see live tiles like the weather...just like on OSX, you use F12 to get the Dashboard to pop up a full screen of 'one glance' kinda information. Even before using Classic Start, the only quirk I took issue with, on the 'start screen', is that when typing for programs, it wouldn't search for stuff like control panels "by default". You'd have to move the mouse over to select "settings". Most of the start menu replacements, however, work exactly like W7 and others did, in that it searches everything.
I know it's really popular in tech circles to have a hate-on for Windows 8 right now, but most of the people raging about it have never even tried it. Most of the people who have tried it, but are still screaming bloody murder, haven't tried it for long (30 minutes isn't even long by twitchy standards), or on a regular PC without vendor screwups. Every version of Windows, since 95 OEM (95 OSR2-C was fun), have had serious vendor problems, in that they mess everything up.
There has also been the, exact, same reaction to every version of Windows in various tech circles since 3.0. Tons of people hated 3.0 (too fancy, doesn't work fast enough on 286s), 3.1 (too little change, where's my calendar??), 95 (start button is satan, where's my 386 enhanced-protected mode?!?!?!), 98 (it's too colorful, runs too fast), ME (WAY too colorful,, where's my DOS 7.0?!), 2K (where's my DOS? Give me my fscking DOS! too bland! not colorful enough!), XP (you've devalued 2K, too colorful, why can't I use my Win98 drivers anymore?), Vista (too bland, where's my 2K start menu?, give me my XP drivers, why is this prefetching or caching files, like we requested for years and linux and OSX already do?!, WHERE IS PINBALL?, my audio acceleration!), Windows 7 (where's my goddamned 2K start menu?!, too colorful, you've devalued my Vista!, fancy video drivers are satan), Windows 8 (too colorful, one UI change, and assorted small UI changes are satan, video drivers are too fancy, even with working day-zero support from vendors [a first], where's my Vista start menu?!, it supports nearly everything out of the box, but I'm used to installing USB/Wifi/etc drivers!)...
Re:No Hyperbole Please (Score:4, Informative)
Well, what does it do that Windows 7 doesn't? Not counting the whole "app store" paradigm, or that live tiles work like Dashboard...
Native USB3 and bluetooth stack as well as native mobile broadband support. Driver and application stacks can now lightly 'plug-in' on top, instead of having to replicate an entire stack themselves. This notably made both my USB3 and bluetooth drivers smaller and use drastically less CPU for the same functionality. They still offer features beyond the 'standard' support, but everything works out-of-the-box.
Enhanced Protected Mode for those crazy enough to use Internet Explorer as their main browser (apparently quite a few people).
WDDM 1.2 (for the video drivers) is more useful than people give it credit for. In addition to improving performance slightly (according to third parties anyway, I haven't noticed any difference) in a few isolated cases, it drastically improves GPU multitasking granularity as well as preventing legacy apps from needing to disable Aero for compatibility reasons. Everything that had to disable it before, "just works" now, and all the cases where Vista and Windows 7 would make the UI unresponsive under GPU load are now quite butter smooth. This has caused me to not notice a few times when I was running multiple windowed games at once because I forgot to shut something down. :P
Does native Hyper-V support on the desktop version count? It doesn't even mess with your GPU performance, like the old versions used to.
And generically superior power savings. I can't say how well it works for a laptop, but it can save an extra 0.5W on my desktop's CPU when idle (balanced, not power saving), when it was already under 2W.
People complained about Windows 7's "improvements", in case such recent history was forgotten, including the annoying "libraries" support, people becoming confused with aero peek's sudden transparency if you put your cursor in the wrong place. Windows 7's main improvements were kernel/driver related, much as Windows 8's are.
Some of the changes in applications or driver stuff (like networking) will primarily benefit those businesses (that I might consider strange) who are using Windows Server in production, such as being able to get far lower CPU utilization for the networking stack itself, but dependent on non-consumer-class networking hardware. This includes datacenters and financial stuff (for which there has been specific options put in) which need as few microseconds possible added latency.
And don't get disingenuous on era gaps, please. 2K was the "reinvention" compared to Win9x and NT4. Vista was the overhaul (not quite as dramatic) compared to XP. Windows 7 was an iteration. Windows 8 is, by all conventional standards, another iteration. Most Microsoft devs would probably say it's nearly as big as XP to Vista, but I'd disagree.
Microsoft provides the standard. They didn't actually remove the ability for third party software to override that. There are A GREAT MANY (over two dozen last I checked) start menu replacements that give you a functionally (if not aesthetically) identical start menu to Windows 7, boot you direct to desktop, and effectively disable any chance of 'accidentally' activating Metro.
It's very disingenuous to say that is worse than Windows 7. Many people hated that Windows 7 completely and totally removed all traces of the Win2K "classic" menu. It got a lot of people to pay attention to the start menu replacement applications, which had previously been rather niche.
Windows 8 is "forcing" nothing more compared to what Windows 7 "forced" on former Vista users. Just because it's a "tick" release instead of a "tock" release doesn't mean it's automatically horrible. Win2K was a "tick" release, but many people did like it and found it to be very stable for what it was. If you look at any of the threads (including Slashdot) mentioning ANY other windows release, the same year as the release, you see very similar complaints, flaming, and generally chicken-with-head-cut-off panicking. Then when it comes time for the next release, people vehemently defending the old releases. And yes, I did check earlier today.
You dislike it. That's terrific, and you have every right to, but as the old saying goes...don't piss on me and tell me it's raining. The only incidences I'm aware of with Windows 8 behaving in a manner that isn't easily and permanently corrected in two minutes inclusive (google, click, click, download, install) are purely vendor issues (like the touchpad one). These happen every time a new version of Windows is released.
Vendors are almost never on-the-ball, almost never release drivers or updates on time. If you use an OEM computer, it's always been the prevalent advice to wait somewhere a year for OEMs to get their stuff together. If you built your own, you aren't likely to encounter those issues.
The problem is between keyboard and chair. Between those six or so things that everyone needs to figure out a new or different UI, even Metro is easy. The fact that you can effectively turn the whole damn thing off (start screen replacement, disable windows firewall, and nothing will load) mostly means that people are being a "tad" stubborn about not wanting a start menu replacement rather than disliking Windows.
If all Windows updates can be considered incremental, when do you get an upgrade? Not counting that an upgrade version is a mere $40 still, and just $140 for a full retail Professional box...while a retail Windows 7 Ultimate (W7 Ultimate == Windows 8 Professional) box is $320...it doesn't do things 'worse' than W7.
They actually, for once, worked exceptionally hard on backwards compatibility, and getting driver vendors to produce early support BEFORE it went RTM, let alone before it hit official retail channels. Anyone who was an early adopter on Vista, Windows 7, and even the venerable, and much-loved XP (if I could get away with running XP x64 still, I would), knew that it generally took up to a year for both AMD and Nvidia to release drivers without serious flaws specific to the new OS.
They drastically reduced the price and made it very competitive. They streamlined things so it boots faster, and uses less memory and power while allowing more functionality. It's equally customizable and tweakable. You can simply replace Metro and have your old UI back. There's even ELAM so your antivirus can check out -all- drivers and services loading on the system to make sure they're safe. People can moan all the want, but can Windows users genuinely say that, given all those facts (not even counting the stuff already mentioned previously), that a $40 upgrade is actually not worth it? That seems pretty unlikely.
People mostly complain about one aspect which can be hidden. Out of all of the issues I had at the MSDN launch date, 4 months ago, none remain that would be pertinent to ~98% of users, including 90+% of power users. Even then, everything worked out of the box as advertised. Naysayers will nay-say, but I can't recall any other Windows version launch which was as smooth, either on the technical or business (Microsoft) side of things.
It even lets me (just like Windows 7:p) run the BIOS clock in UTC and run the official ntpd source code to sync up to time servers. Although, Windows 8 has a new timer API which allows ntpd to get 0.3 microsecond accuracy from the default timer, just like it does on Linux.
And sadly? That's mostly off the top of my head in ten minutes, and I still dislike Windows in general, I just don't believe that Windows 8 is in any way somehow worse, let alone inferior to Windows 7. In essentially all technical aspects, it's a big improvement. If you don't like the aesthetics, there are many simple and free methods by which you can permanently disable, or change them. If you've never done that before, or don't know how to install a start menu replacement, I'm sure there are some people or forums who would be willing to detail a step-by-step guide if you didn't want to read existing ones.
Not a rant - an analysis (Score:5, Insightful)
He explained exactly what was wrong, and why.
He used the basic principals of GUI design and explained why Windows 8 is a total failure.
Great job. No wonder the MS shills are going crazy.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey just because its easier to brainwash a child does not mean we should be attempting to brainwash ourselves.
Also 3 is way to young to be allowed electronics or access to IT/telecommunications. Not until 5 yrs old and only with supervision and seriously protective software installed (I want my kids to be expert A+ hackers, not 2cnd rate script kiddies)
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
For me, the bigger the screen, the more useless it is because the touchpad interface requires larger and larger gestures to get at what's needed.. Remember the windows 2k/xp start menu with its crazy long cascaded menus? No one wants to sort through those. Metro 'start' is like that, only worse because the tiles are huge.
Most of the complaints in the video link are right on.. It's jarring and mystifying at the same time. Basic functionality should never, ever be hidden. That includes configuration utilities. The whole concept of having two separate interfaces with separate rules is also beyond stupid. The frustration isn't just in figuring it out, it's having to figure out ways to complete the work I need to that actually take longer than it did on previous operating systems.
What's this trend in attacking 'negativity' as though doing so is a legit argument against what was said? Is this some kind of peer pressure to conform to the head-in-ground masses of ostriches who can't handle reality because they're too weak willed to not take everything personally?
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can shrink the size of the tiles, but I think it would be a disadvantage. I can use a higher mouse sensitivity because I don't have to be anywhere near as precise when I actually click on those tiles. I can completely mitigate the gesture size, and use a mouse sensitivity I like. I see there is also an option to fill my large monitor (settings->show more tiles), which actually gives me an array of 8x12 tiles if I use the smaller setting for each tile - 92 icons I can access without navigating submenus or scrolling on a 2560x1600 monitor. That's actually not bad. I like flat structures, they are fast.
That said, I rarely have to use the start screen. I stay in desktop mode. I've pinned my commonly used applications, about 15 or so, to the taskbar. I never need to open the start screen to access them. It's how I used 7. The start screen comes in to play when I search, and I now access it using win+F intead of just hitting the windows key.
I've seen the actual "start" tiled interface a few times this month because I had something specific to do on it. I'm not even trying to avoid, it's just the way I use windows tends to avoid it. I would still prefer to have the old style search back - flat, and tucked down in the lower left, as it should be. In short, the new start screen is not the end of the world. As for gesture size, I don't care, because it's fairly silly to call an OS bad because of that, especially when a highly efficient type-to-launch system is in place. Win7's start menu needs more precise aim, but I never ran into that limitation because I never used my mouse to find and launch programs.
What I do agree with is that functionality is hidden. The problem with the video is that it claims that the functionality is not there at all first, then says, "actually it's hidden". Hidden is bad, but manageable. All the same shortcut keys work, so for keyboard users like me there's really no difference. The guy didn't even notice that the old windows 7 backup feature is still there, which would have allowed him to restore to an SSD. The video is pretty much completely un-researched, and while it makes one good point - don't hide features - it's a failure in every other sense. The person who made it should be embarrassed. He's also contradicting himself: In the past he claimed Vista was unusable, now he's claiming otherwise.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
"The guy didn't even notice that"?
A bad user interface doesn't necessarily mean that the option isn't there. If the option exists, but is difficult to discover or presented in such an unintuitive way that people will miss it, that's the fault of the user interface, not the fault of the user for not noticing it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not conviced. From both design and functionality standpoints it's utterly horrible, and a kid isn't going to fix that.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
No...what recoiledsnake means is this:
If you use a computer like a 3 year old, then Windows 8 is perfect. That includes splashy, bright coloured interfaces, and chunky buttons big enough that someone lacking good fine motor control can still click on them.
For anybody who actually uses a computer like an adult, though, it sucks rocks.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
It's not. You need very intricate mouse control to use the charms bar for example.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, the author's attitude is more than a little arrogant. You expect reasonable people to give your video a chance after speaking like that?
Yes I have used Windows 8, and while I am one of the hoards who loves the old start menu, apart from that change Win 8 is simply better. 7 was excellent, 8 has a few improvements over that.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Interesting)
So removing windowing, and requiring all programs to be full screen, so only able to run one program at a time, is an improvement to you?
This is Windows 1.01 level technology, not an improvement on Windows 7.
Re: (Score:3)
So removing windowing, and requiring all programs to be full screen, so only able to run one program at a time, is an improvement to you?
You seem to be confused between Windows RT and Windows 8, the latter (which is what we are talking about) does not have the attributes you describe.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes it does. It's the 'metro' interface which has exactly ONE app on screen at any one time (apparently random times too!).
Within the 'metro' UI that is partially true (there is some support for side-by-side apps), but that is not the only UI on Windows 8, as such his assertions are demonstrably false, they didn't remove windowing, they didn't require all programs to be full screen and they didn't remove the ability to run multiple programs at once, that is all still there.
When people say, it's a good app, I use the Desktop...they're saying that Win8 isn't good and Win7, which is what the Desktop basically is, is what they prefer to use.
So you are under the impression that the only thing different between Windows 8 and Windows 7 is the 'metro' UI, in that case your post makes more sense, still wrong though.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
too bad Windows 8 does exactly none of that.
Until you accidentally swipe the wrong way, and your desktop disappears and is replaced by a full-screen weather application.
Re: (Score:3)
and is replaced by a full-screen weather application.
Which can be run side by side with the desktop and other apps, and does not prevent any other applications from running. The fact that some subset of programs run fullscreen does not mean Windows 8 requires all programs run full screen, and only one program can run at a time. This would be like saying "Windows 7 removes windowing, and requires all programs to be full screen, so only able to run one program at a time" just because you run games in fullscreen mode.
In fact, even for the programs that run fu
Re: (Score:3)
Nope. He means the way I try to move my mouse to the right to moderate something on Slashdot in Firefox, and Windows 8 thinks I am using the right swipe gesture and changes to next application (Weather if always open, and is very often the next app). That is what he means.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is sort of the point. You aren't using it like Windows 8 you are using it like Windows 7 with a 3rd party application to make it MORE like Windows 7.
The complaint is Windows 8 out of the box is junk.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
May I ask, what improvements?
Aside from the new Start Screen / Start Menu, which is controversial at best, the second most important feature I had heard is that 'it boots up faster.'
Ok, so it boots up faster...I am on a SSD, and before that a 7200 RPM hard drive. My boot times are, what, less than a minute? And part of that has to do with my machine having any number of startup programs / drivers for things hanging off of it?
I mean, don't get me wrong, faster boot times are always appreciated, but for that to be the second most taughted feature....I'm having trouble justifying the $40 upgrade from Windows 7, let alone buying OEM or full versions of 8.
And the third feature is, what, the Windows Store? How is that a feature? Why do I need a marketplace on my desktop? It's an Operating System...what new, compelling features are you offering that makes this operating system a must have? Better driver support for exotic devices? Easier mass deployment / imaging routines? A more powerful framework for designing applications / programs that is not arbitrarily limited to the latest version?
Has MS Paint been upgraded to something Photoshop like? Has the Image Viewer been redesigned to have more features / work with more formats? Has the CD / DVD / BluRay software been upgraded to something more useful? How about the creation and extraction of archives? Backup and restore? Has the Media Player been rewritten to be less annoying, something approaching WinAmp in terms of usefulness? How about its support for codecs? Both old ones and new ones. Subtitles. Have they implemented 'Admin Command Line' here as a standard option? How about video transcoding? A PDF viewer that doesn't make people spit tacks?
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
3 year old
five year old
I would expect them to be better at it. It was designed for them.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's getting old. This shill account might be pretty old (879048), yet just check the posting history. Not a single post not related to Microsoft.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
879048 is old? Who knew.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Funny)
I remember when all this was fields....
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is not that it's difficult to learn (though it is a bit of a shock at first); the problem is that some people just don't like it. You might be perfectly content with a touch-first tablet interface on your desktop, but Windows 8 will never touch any of my personal machines. That being said, I am still interested to try it out on a tablet device where many of the design decisions might actually make sense.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the primary interface because they will collect a 30% fee of the retail sales price of every program written for it. So obviously they want to coerce people into using it.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you'll find that over the next couple of versions, that the 'classic' interface disappears or has reduced functionality. Anyone think this is not gong to happen? Apple set the precedent, now Microsoft is going to try cashing in on the same lock-in. Buying or using Windows 8 is funding the loss of your ability to actually 'own' your own hardware, same as iOS.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft needs to destroy Android or they will lose their monopoly pricing power, and the only way to do that is with pushing Windows Phone and it's Metro application stack. If the users see desktop first there's no reason for Metro apps to be developed, and with no applications, no reason to by WinPho.
Amnesia as you go through a doorway (Score:5, Interesting)
treat the Start screen like a full-screen version of the Start menu
And because it's full-screen, it all but encourages the user to forget what he's working on. Ever have amnesia as you go through a doorway [scientificamerican.com]? The fact that the Start screen is full-screen is like that.
You don't need a Start orb to click on -- just hit the Windows key.
How are users who have been opening the Start menu with the mouse for a decade and a half expected to discover the Windows key?
Re:Amnesia as you go through a doorway (Score:4, Informative)
How are users who have been opening the Start menu with the mouse for a decade and a half expected to discover the Windows key?
They're not. They're expected to move their mouse to the corner where they remember having it, and clicking there, which brings up the Start screen. Furthermore, when they first log into the OS, it plays a short video that urges them to do just that.
Re:Amnesia as you go through a doorway (Score:5, Insightful)
How are users who have been opening the Start menu with the mouse for a decade and a half expected to discover the Windows key?
They're not. They're expected to move their mouse to the corner where they remember having it, and clicking there, which brings up the Start screen. Furthermore, when they first log into the OS, it plays a short video that urges them to do just that.
Erm, you mean they're supposed to INTUITIVELY know to move their mouse to some point on the screen WHERE THERE IS NOTHING and CLICK THE NOTHING?
Sounds like a perfect description of COMPLETE UI FAILURE to me.
Re:Amnesia as you go through a doorway (Score:4, Interesting)
They could try looking at their keyboards for starters.
First, if they forgot the OOBE tutorial video (or never watched it in the first place because they're using someone else's account for a short time), how would they know to look at the keyboard, as opposed to exhaustively scanning the screen and then giving up? Second, how would they associate "picture of a flag" with the Start screen? Third, I've known gamers to pry off their Windows keys or buy Windows key-less keyboards because accidentally pressing the Windows key while reaching for Ctrl or Alt or Z during a full-screen game makes certain games fail.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are two fundamental problem with the "just install XYZ add-on and it becomes tolerable" perspective.
1) Every time you have to use the computer of someone not savvy enough to want/install such a thing, you're stuck with the horrible stock configuration.
2) Every time you have to use a locked-down/policy-controlled computer, you're stuck with the horrible stock configuration.
#1 kinda reminds me of having to use the Gentoo or Ubuntu machine of someone who has different command-line needs from install-to-that-point.
#2 is a tad less of a short-term concern, since many of those are just moving from XP to 7, but a serious long-term concern if things aren't fixed in 9.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
So you're saying the changes from Windows 7 to Windows 8 are fine if you use 3rd party software to ... suppress them all and make it just like Windows 7 was? Hardly an endorsement.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would I want to use an interface designed for a 3 year old? Hmm? Come on.
Yes I use the command line and the function keys and I can fly around the thing when I have to. Doesnt change the fact it's just about the worst interface imaginable, and confuzzles the regular users to no end, resulting in them constantly calling me to figure out how to do the simplest of things. I am not saying previous windows interfaces were all that great, but in general people had gotten to the point of being accustomed to them at least. Breaking things for the sake of breaking things does not a good product make.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can avoid metro, it's pretty usable.
But metro intrudes at annoying times for various routine tasks. Frustrating indeed. Showing how a child can perform cherry-picked tasks doesn't change this.
have kids try working desktop and metro apps at th (Score:3)
have kids try working desktop and metro apps at the same time.
MS will need to let you install metro apps out side of the app store and let up on some of the sand boxing as well.
The Sandboxing in the app store apps just get's in the way of many work flows.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sorry, but if a video featuring a child moving pictures around the screen is the best counter-argument Microsoft can come up with, there has to be something seriously wrong with Windows 8.
I recently had the opportunity to try Windows 8 for the first time. I'm a 40-something IT consultant with 20+ years experience, so I'm not your typical user by any stretch of the imagination. I've used DOS, Netware, AIX, SCO Unix, Linux and every Windows version from 3.0, but I've actually never used a tablet and I've never owned a smartphone. I was ready to give Windows 8 a try. I mean, how hard can it be?
Pretty hard, as it turns out. I knew I was in trouble when after staring at the "start" screen for a few minutes, I had no idea how to access settings or navigate the file system to get to, say, my NAS unit or USB stick.
In previous Windows versions, I can remember feeling annoyed over having to search through the system to find settings or applications that Microsoft had decided to move around. In Windows 8, I felt like I did that time my car broke down: I was stuck. There was nowhere to go, and nothing seemed familiar.
I though most of his rant was spot on, and my customers seem to agree. I sold a few laptops with Windows 8 preinstalled, but ended up having to downgrade to Windows 7. I'll be doing that with every laptop from now on (but Microsoft still gets to count them as Windows 8 sales).
Soooooo... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm holding it wrong?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You know why I say Fuck You? Because your links are like boasting how easy it is to bypass an AES128 encrypted file by watching a fucking youtube video that shows you the key. If you don't know something, I don't care how short a video is if I shouldn't have to watch it in the first place. So, fuck you.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, I know several people who actually like Windows 8 better.
Cool story bro.
Watch a couple of videos if you're lazy and learn some shortcuts and it's a better Windows 7 at the worst.
While Windows 7 was a bit annoying when you were trying to find somehting in the new control panel, if you knew Windows XP you could pretty much use it right away, and teach yourself the few things that had changed.
WIndows 8 simply has too steep a learning curve. You need to watch instructional videos to figure it out. I'm sure it's a fine phone OS, and maybe if you're used to a different phone OS it's not that strange, but nothing changed for the better for keyboard/mouse users trying to get work done. Why would I want this on a laptop or desktop?
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
No amount of ranting is enough in this matter. Windows 8 is trash.
no, No, NO!!! Windows 8 isn't trash -- VISTA is trash. Vista IS TrAsh. See?
Windows 8 is rubbish, conceived by the marketing droids and PHBs positioning Windows in the touch world for the future. In 4 years when everything has been converted is touch, you'll wonder how you ever managed with a simple "read only" display. (MSTSC.exe's going to have to be re-written for another input device.)
And just think about all of the new market share Microsoft will have after Every Single PC and Laptop has to be completely replaced to become touch-enabled. (Time to sell my mouse-hardware stock.)
Forget cutting spending or raising taxes --- the economy is saved! Windows 8 is going to end up with the largest market share E...V...E...R.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand it.
Windows 8 is just Windows 7 PLUS metro.
Surely you could just not use the metro parts and it would be just the same experience as windows 7 (mostly). In fact, I do just that.
I got used to the new start screen - it's not _that_ bad, no worse than hunting through menus to find what you're looking for, and actually better in that you can just start typing the name of a program and it comes up in the search. Or you can type the name of a control panel applet or setting, and that works too.
There are definite improvements over windows 7, even if they are minor. So in general, if all you want is an incremental improvement over windows 7, you can use it just like that.
No one is forcing you to use metro for all your apps.
So yeah, windows 8 is less than ideal in that some settings screens take you to a metro interface (but you could live without them), and metro itself is horrible, but if you use it just like windows 7 and all versions before that, it still works fine.
Re:Not again... (Score:5, Insightful)
I got used to the new start screen - it's not _that_ bad, no worse than hunting through menus to find what you're looking for, and actually better in that you can just start typing the name of a program and it comes up in the search. Or you can type the name of a control panel applet or setting, and that works too.
What if you don't remember the name of that control panel applet? What if you don't know the application's name, but would otherwise find it if you could browse through menus?
"Just typing the name" of some computer program or appet can be horribly inconvenient.
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Informative)
- it more than doubles the number of clicks and moves you have to do to perform normal operations,
- applications (like the weather predictions) keep popping up when you least expect because you made a gesture with your mouse that the horrible horrible UI mistakes as another touch gesture that has nothing to do with what you want to do,
- you simply cannot find configuration features without knowing the specific keywords, because there are no shortcuts that do not involve typing these specific keywords/ This is something they started with the advanced file search in Windows 7, which is much worse than XPs, but went viral on Windows 8
Re:Not again... (Score:4, Insightful)
Two things come to mind:
He is correct that its usability suffers from Metro and the abrupt changes to the UI when it is being pushed so hard. One of many points made in the video was that people who have never used it will find it very confusing because in more ways than one the UI gets in the way. Microsoft trying to have its cake and eat it too is what is causing all this grief. Instead of doing like Apple did with the change from OS9 to OS10 and dropping legacy and backwards compatibility to go with the new paradigm they want to maintain backwards compatibility. This is because Microsoft fears backlash from both its main customers, big businesses and governments, and the developers for those businesses and governments. Worse, they really made it for the tablet market all the while still trying to hold onto the laptop / desktop market with it. The point made in the video of the differences between a mouse / touchpad and touchscreen are valid.
To do it right, Metro should NOT be the default interface if you are installing it to a machine without a touchscreen just as the "classic" should not be the default if you are installing it to a tablet. They are different beasts. A tablet is more for viewing content than it is a great workhorse for making that content no matter what Microsoft or Apple may think. An even better solution is to do two different products. One for the tablets and one for the desktop / laptop and let the consumers choose which they really want for what products. Again, that too was pointed out in this video.
The second observation of your post deals with your contempt for humans. It is those very humans that Microsoft is trying to impress. There is a very, very large segment of the population that are not pleased with the Metro interface that Microsoft really wants to go with. The so called "fix" of downloading a second application to eliminate it as the advice that is often given is proof enough of that dislike. Calling that many people names isn't the way to win over support.
What else runs Windows applications? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Unusable? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Tens of millions of licenses have been forced down the throats of new pc and laptop buyers...."
FTFY
Re:For a guy who "learned Linux"... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can pretty much use Windows 8 just like Windows 7, just the "start menu" is now fullscreen.
Which is exactly the problem. You lose conveyance: there's no obvious way to discover how to open the Start menu with the mouse. And you lose context: opening the Start menu completely covers up the application you're using,
Re: (Score:3)
here's no obvious way to discover how to open the Start menu with the mouse
Don't confusion "intuitiveness" with "habit." For a completely novice user there was no obvious way in Windows 7 or Windows Vista to open the start menu either. People just knew how to open the start menu because they were trained to do so in Windows 95-XP, where it was labeled (even 95 had a tutorial on what the start menu was and how to open it. Microsoft also had an ad campaign on the start menu). Windows Vista removed the label, and replaced it with a plain orb. Okay.... it's a graphic element at least,
metro UI switcher and Classic shell (Score:3)
Re:This guy is an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No shit (Score:3, Informative)
I am not at all a fan of Metro, I think it is a stupid decision to try and force their tablet sales, and it isn't going to work. I dislike the start screen, and on my personal work desktop I replace it with a start menu (Start 8 is my choice).
However it is not hard to use. It is different, and I feel a number of the things it does make for a less efficient workflow, but it is not hard. Inferior to what it replaced, but not hard.
So if you truly can't figure it out you are either:
1) Extremely technically inep
Re:This guy is an idiot (Score:4, Informative)
I can't really see the benefit of Windows 8 over 7 at the moment though so I'm considering going back.
Why even bother going back? Just install a start menu replacement (one of dozens available), and you'll have a machine that looks and acts like Windows 7. You'll never even have to touch metro, as they disable hot corners and boot to desktop. Then you retain the performance, security, and new features in Windows 8, with all the benefits of Windows 7.
Re:This guy is an idiot (Score:5, Informative)
Start8: http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/ [stardock.com]
ViStart: http://www.lee-soft.com/vistart/ [lee-soft.com]
Classic Shell (has the benefit of being FOSS): http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
Pokki: https://www.pokki.com/windows-8-start-menu [pokki.com]
Re: (Score:3)
I've never had the "swipe" issues the author pointed out and I haven't heard anyone else in the family complaining about it. Maybe it's a logitech driver / config problem? I'll try it out later, though, as swiping may be easier to get used to rather than going into the top right corner to switch between applications.
And you open up the left hand sidebar to close any application that's running, btw. Figured that out in the first few minutes of using Win8. Too bad the author couldn't figure that out.
Re: (Score:3)
It means you don't use your computer for anything serious.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It is a user problem, Windows 8 also works fine for me. And it seems to work fine for a buddy of mine who I just built a computer for. I gave him the choice of Win7 or Win8. And he took Win 8 and was off doing what he was doing before with minimal difficulty.
Does that mean it's perfect? Hardly, but people stuck in their ways with the UI or have a bug up their ass over it are going to continue to throw a hissy fit no matter what.