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Polio Eradication Program Suspended In Pakistan After Aid Workers Shot

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the got-to-be-kidding-me dept.

Medicine 223

Hugh Pickens writes "Jamal Khan reports that the United Nations has suspended its polio vaccination drive in Pakistan after eight people involved in the effort were shot dead in the past few days. The killings dealt a grave blow to the drive to bring an end to the scourge of polio in Pakistan, one of only three countries where the crippling disease still survives. Militants accuse health workers of acting as spies for the U.S. and claim the vaccine makes children sterile. Taliban commanders in the troubled northwest tribal region have also said vaccinations can't go forward until the U.S. stops drone strikes in the country. Insurgent opposition to the campaign grew last year after it was revealed that a Pakistani doctor ran a fake polio vaccination program to help the CIA track down and kill Osama bin Laden, who was hiding in the town of Abbottabad in the country's northwest. The Pakistani government has condemned the attacks against aid workers, saying they deprive Pakistan's most vulnerable populations — specifically children — of basic life-saving health interventions. A total of 56 polio cases have been reported in Pakistan during 2012, down from 190 the previous year, according to the U.N. Most of the new cases in Pakistan are in the northwest, where the presence of militants makes it difficult to reach children. Clerics and tribal elders were recruited to support polio vaccinations in an attempt to open up areas previously inaccessible to health workers. 'This is undoubtedly a tragic setback,' says UNICEF spokeswoman Sarah Crowe, 'but the campaign to eradicate polio will and must continue.'"

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Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363271)

Seems like every backward region I've ever been too has been awash in conspiracy theories, urban legends, and superstitious horseshit. Worked down in South America, where every illiterate countryside hick seems to think Americans are trying to steal their organs (resulting in shit like this [nwsource.com] ). Worked in India, where half the hicks think that clean water is just a ruse to poison them. Even worked in a ghetto, where the rumor was that whitey was putting chemicals in menthol cigarettes to make black men sterile.

So it doesn't surprise me that backwater Pakistanis believe that Christians are out to give their kids drugs to make them hate Mohammad (or whatever other crazy crap runs through those heads), disguised as these things called "vaccines." Combine that with a CIA sleight-of-hand and a Taliban which is happy to use any excuse to show it's still relevant, and you get a lot of kids who are now going to die from a disease the rest of the world eradicated long ago.

Fuck, just look at this idiot [salon.com] as the perfect example of what happens when you mix base stupidity with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

It's all well and good until said hillbillies start killing people or getting them killed.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363325)

Your sentiment is not lost on me, but that is why we must remember we cannot force our ways or our means of producing a safe and poductive society on others. This is a bit of case for the prime directive.

There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?

Thats not to say we shouldnt freely provide information, or allow people to ask us for help, that contradicts there beliefs, but we should be careful how we do it.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 2 years ago | (#42363421)

In almost all cases national governments are in favor of these programs. What Pakistan should be doing is giving the workers armed escorts.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about 2 years ago | (#42363805)

What Pakistan should be doing is giving the workers armed escorts.

That would be like sending in the army to end racism in the south so that you can hand out bottled water.

The civilized areas of pakistan don't particularly need the UN to go in an help people, they have hospitals and roads and all that stuff already. Yes, there are poor people who need help being vaccinated, but they in karachi for example this a detail management problem, and they in a broad sense need money.

In the tribal areas the pakistani central government is not welcome. At all. They've been basically in an uneasy soft war with the tribal areas since even the 1860's when it was all nominally british. The UN has, thus far, been able to go in, on its own, with the protection of being the UN, and do all of these things because people have been convinced (and convinced the tribal elders, even with bribes) that the UN guys are actually seriously trying to do good thing. If you send in the army you're starting a war about who is in control of the tribal areas. And quite frankly the central government doesn't care that much. Eventually yes, it may come to that, but right now the central government in pakistan has its own problems, and they'd rather stay out of the tribal areas. What they don't want, frankly what no one wants, is polio to spread from the tribal areas to the rest of pakistan or india.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (3, Insightful)

alexander_686 (957440) | about 2 years ago | (#42364037)

That would be like sending in the army to end racism in the south so that you can hand out bottled water.

Well, sometimes you do need to send in the 101 Airborne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine#Armed_escort [wikipedia.org]

Not saying that this is the case here – but it’s not something you want to dismiss outright.

Yeah, The ISI Line Of Argument (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364377)

"we are so helpless". Bullshit. They want a chaos they can use for their purposes.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2, Insightful)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 2 years ago | (#42363541)

Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?

There have been cases in history where cultural lobotomy has been a good thing. So, 100k cases of polio win hands down.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363645)

Who gets to determine this? I guess the stronger force. I agree, sometimes, it has been good, other times, bad, its bad psychological for people to assume the responsibility when it comes to another culture. See Godwin. Aka Hitler. Its not an ideal to strive towards.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0, Redundant)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 2 years ago | (#42363713)

I hope that it won't be cultural relativists, because I'd hate to have respect for the Aztec religion.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Funny)

Vinegar Joe (998110) | about 2 years ago | (#42364457)

Aw come on......have a heart.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

TheSync (5291) | about 2 years ago | (#42363749)

There have been cases in history where cultural lobotomy has been a good thing. So, 100k cases of polio win hands down.

The problem is that most "cultural lobotomies" have been performed by ethnic discrimination, terror, or simply mass killing.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (3, Insightful)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about 2 years ago | (#42363839)

The problem is that most "cultural lobotomies" have been performed by ethnic discrimination, terror, or simply mass killing.

Aye, that is a problem. I guess that it all boils down to the fact that until recently, for a very long period (approximately from the end of the Neolithic), there has been very little value put on a human life. And in many parts of the world, it still is.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Informative)

LocalH (28506) | about 2 years ago | (#42363621)

Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?

What good is cultural diversity if people are dying left and right and thus unable to enjoy or even preserve it because of ill-informed radicals?

100k cases of polio, definitely worse.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363719)

Excellent point. And in the Taliban's case, I don't think they have the right to determine for all Pakistanis. So actively resisting them in this case would be justifiable.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364473)

An its 100k now. Not the total future deaths. Eradication of polio aims to get to the point where the total number of future deaths is zero. While polio exists it can recure and spread undoing its eradication in other parts of the world.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363637)

Wish there was a Stupid mod.

This isn't Star Trek. You would rather people suffer and die from easily preventable diseases because they might somehow start wearing jeans or forget how to do some tribal dance?

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about 2 years ago | (#42363753)

But are these people YOUR responsability really? Their outside of the monkeysphere. I say we should leave them be if they are this crazy. However another person made a point that the Taliban are radicals and no the prime directive doesnt really apply because they potentially have the same technological level to resist.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363949)

Just because their government is inept, and their neighbors are deadly wackos, doesn't mean those people deserve to be completely thrown under a bus.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about 2 years ago | (#42364143)

I agree people shouldn't neccissarily be thrown under a bus because a radical group makes life hard. But you don't see me voulenteering for this duty in the UN. I also don't feel good about personally ordering (expecting) someone to deal with this situation themselves.

However I felt like sharing my opinion. So I am an armchair philosopher. At least here I get to interact in a peaceful way debating this type of stuff. I think if I felt a clear and present threat from polio I would worry about it, maybe even be motivated to find a solution I felt good about.

I really am not immensely worried about polio taking over the 1st world. Could be from ignorance. I never experienced polio or knew anyone that did. I also don't get out much anymore so rarely get a chance to get sick. Have not had a vaccine myself since I left the military. Haven't needed one either. I'm not living in a polio infested slum.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

meerling (1487879) | about 2 years ago | (#42364269)

Of course since they remain a viable reservoir of the virus, it can and will continue to attempt to expand beyond their borders.
They are a viral cesspool that threatens to infect everyone.
Ok, that was a bit dramatic, but the point is, you can't leave a viable infectious reservoir if you want to eradicate a disease.
Look at smallpox. There was a massive campaign to inoculate everyone on the planet. The got pretty close to that goal, and no area was left untouched. Now, the only smallpox you are going to see are the samples still held by certain organizations. Most of the doctors and scientists want even those samples eradicated, but a few fools have been preventing that for over a decade. (I could list why their excuses are invalid, but this isn't the place.)
They are just trying to do the same thing with polio. This can only be effectively done with diseases that reside exclusively in humans.

Ok, some people are going with the Star Trek Prime Directive excuse. In Next Gen and later, the wimps writing for them interpreted it as a total hands off let them suffer version. In the original series, it was a don't mess with their development kind of thing. Curing a plague was ok, so was evacuating a doomed planet. On the other hand, you don't set yourself up as gods, provide them with advanced tech or science, or force a non-space faring planet into the federation.
In the New stuff, they'd totally let everyone suffer and die, and then wring their hands metaphorically and congratulate themselves on not interfering in the development of another culture.
In the Old stuff, they'd have provided a vaccine and aided in it's distribution and then congratulate themselves on saving vast numbers of peoples lives among the primitive culture, and making it possible for them to continue to develop on their own.

Yes, I watched a lot of Star Trek when I was younger.

One of the problems some people are overlooking is that vaccinations need to go to the people, the people can't really go to the vaccines, or at least not the distances and locations that would be required if they had to go to the major cities. Few people have the kind of transportation necessary, and leaving your own area, ESPECIALLY if you are a tribal, it is an immediate and large risk to your survival and well being. It would be great if the government would provide security escorts for the aid workers, but again, it's not going to work in the boonies out there. Some tribal territories would consider that a hostile act, and either not cooperate, or actually try to kill everyone involved.
As to the CIA thing, I hadn't heard of it, and am somewhat doubtful without further documentation. On the other hand, that's the kind of bullshit the CIA is know for doing, even though I'm pretty sure it's against international law. Even if it isn't against international law, it is a horribly stupid thing to do as it will put all humanitarian aid personnel and projects in jeopardy for years if not decades. It's something no intelligent, rational, or ethical person would do. In other words, right up spy alley.

As to the Taliban, they've already proven they'll say and do anything to force people to follow and obey their power. They have proven themselves to the world to be irrational unreasoning scum of the worst sort. They don't want outsiders in their territories and will happily lie, steal, cheat, and kill to get their way.

Oh, Yeah, An L3 $hill (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364411)

"we need Armed Vaccinations, everywhere !!"

Here is the intel gear to protect the vaccinators from road-side bombs. Only 400 million $ a pop.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 2 years ago | (#42364455)

On this side of the world people don't want to so anything about AGW because we might have to carpool or put up with wind turbines.

Every culture seems to have its idiotic antiscientitic hang ups.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 2 years ago | (#42363861)

There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?

Even if one is happy to stand back and let the colorful natives be colorful(either because you'd rather not pick on their culture, or because it's just too much of a pain in the ass), the trouble in this case is that anywhere polio is allowed to remain endemic is a reservoir just waiting for a stroke of bad luck to make it back into the wider population.

Were the threat to local children some sort of non-contagious local superstition, we'd have the luxury of deciding whether or not to play cultural relativism. With polio, though, the question is whether we hunt it down wherever it hides, incidentally pissing off some locals and saving some babies, or whether we put up with the risk of having a serious outbreak at any time, almost anywhere...

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

Jartan (219704) | about 2 years ago | (#42363981)

You must be joking. They're putting everyone at risk by not getting vaccinations. If we actually had a large outbreak of polio there would be a good chance for a dangerous mutation.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

damienl451 (841528) | about 2 years ago | (#42364331)

Easy. 100,000 cases of polio is much much worse. The kids didn't ask to be born to parents who have strange ideas and there are many aspects of the local culture (honor killings? Systematic and systemic discrimination against women?) that should disappear. Cultural eradication is a good thing if it means that mistaken beliefs about the world get rooted out, and especially if it causes active harm to others. I won't be shedding any tears if a "culture" that rejects something as innocuous as vaccination disappears.

That being said, I agree that imperialism is a bad idea, and much of the backlash against "the West" is due to real grievances. For instance, bombing weddings and killing children is not a good way to show how great Western civilization is. Neither can you shove your values down people's throats and expect them to embrace them. But if some cultural practices (genital mutilation for instance) were to be abandoned, I'd be very happy. And, when it involves children whose only mistake was to be born in the wrong part of the world, cultural relativism doesn't seem very appropriate to me.

Not to forget that appealing to "culture" is often a way for the powerful to cement their privileges and continue to exploit marginalized groups. Thus the various dictators who explain that human rights are a Western construct and that authoritarianism is part of the local culture. Or people who want to keep girls ignorant and submissive because their culture/religion says women are inferior to men.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

Shoten (260439) | about 2 years ago | (#42364369)

Your sentiment is not lost on me, but that is why we must remember we cannot force our ways or our means of producing a safe and poductive society on others. This is a bit of case for the prime directive.

There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?

Thats not to say we shouldnt freely provide information, or allow people to ask us for help, that contradicts there beliefs, but we should be careful how we do it.

"Prime Directive?" This is Pakistan, not some fledgling civilization in danger of being contaminated by knowledge of alien life with far superior technology, who might be mistaken for deities upon sighting. It's just Pakistan. Many of their doctors and engineers studied in the West, for fuck's sake...even if there was a question of cultural contamination, that line is waaaaaaaay behind us all.

Vaccinating people against polio and "cultural eradication," to use your terms, aren't even on the same plane of possibility. As for your third paragraph, I'm not even sure what you're trying to say (so I'm guessing) but no, you don't have to honor everyone's beliefs. You have to acknowledge them, yes, but some beliefs are just plain batshit crazy, and should be called out as such. At the end of the day, you have to have SOME consensus as to what truth is, you know...there is such a thing as true and false. Or do you really think that maybe Scientology is right, too? That the Mormon belief that God and Jesus have their own planets has a good bit of merit to it? Or perhaps that the Flat Earth Society has it right...and the world is flat? Oh, and also, that it's totally round at the same time, like everyone else believes...

No, there is such a thing as objective, provable, scientific truth. For example...

Polio vaccines wipe out a needless and preventable disease that still wreaks havoc among the child populations of three nations = true.

Polio vaccines make children sterile = insanely, provably, ass-poundingly false.

The Prime Directive is real = also incredifuckingly false.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

noh8rz9 (2716595) | about 2 years ago | (#42363349)

As I've said in prior posts, the only true evil in the world today is the Taliban. Anything else is hyperbole.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about 2 years ago | (#42363651)

the only true evil in the world today is the Taliban

the closest to true evil in the world today is the Taliban. There, FTFY.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363973)

The only true evil? You forgot Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Fox News, Drudge, etc. You are a brainwashed idiot.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363365)

It's all well and good until said hillbillies start killing people or getting them killed.

Looks like evolution is working as designed.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

mspohr (589790) | about 2 years ago | (#42363479)

Judging from your subject heading, I thought you were talking about the USA and as I read your post, I was thinking that everything you say could be applied to the good old USA so I'm not sure what your point is...?
TFA seems to have the theory that it was the US operation of a fake polio campaign as part of the effort to get Bin Laden that led to the current Taliban violence against polio workers. Probably a reasonable assumption.
Also... ignorance is never "all well and good"... and simply any group of oppressed (by their govt., the US govt., their feudal landlords, etc.) people "hillbillies" is ignorant.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363599)

Well, how's that for a steaming pile of horseshit.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

gtall (79522) | about 2 years ago | (#42363743)

The Taliban has been against vaccination long before the bin Laden operation. Let's all be multi-culti and let the hicks overrun the civilized people. Any history of Pakistan would show you the only oppressor in the Pakistan tribal regions has been Islam and its upside down view of women, child marriage, education, etc. Let's also not forget that the wonderful cultural heritage of those regions is also the one that cultivates poppies for heroin production.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

jythie (914043) | about 2 years ago | (#42363985)

Well, there is being against something, and then having a high profile example of exactly what you were paranoid about, which resulted in the assassination off a major figure in your organization... it would be like if it came out that the US government actually was spreading mind control chemicals from jet engines or started sending UN troops to secure little backwater towns. Believing in a conspiracy makes people paranoid, but having actual confirmation of that conspiracy, at least in part, can push people over when it comes to action.

Child marraige is good for men. Little girls are n (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364093)

Child marraige is good for men. Little girls are nice to men and are cute. It is disadvantatious to women and this is a woman's world.

I hope the world is destroyed rather than allow it to completely be overrun by pro-women anti-male values.

Death to women's rights.
Marry little girls.
Respect cultural differances so we can all have a place for ourselves.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363537)

The is a direct result of the reputation the US has earned in the world. Though these are UN aid workers right? Its definitely irrational for people to equate the UN to the US CIA NSA, DHS, TSA or any other 3 letter agency, but this is the end result of using force to dictate politics, religion, and science.

It is very very unfortunate but this is also nothing new the UN has had experience with this in the past like you have pointed out.

The same thing happened in Darfur, the UN couldn't even provide food because they would be killed for being the long arm of the evil imperialists who had destabilized the nation in the first place.

While the UN was not responsible for the situation in Darfur, the Chinese, and British corporations were definitely to blame, and possibly American foreign corporate interests. They wanted oil, and land.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (2)

Nadaka (224565) | about 2 years ago | (#42363597)

This is also true of the hillbilly parts of the US by the way.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363615)

Think of it as evolution in action.

Yeah, that's great, except... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363711)

Except this WAS NOT and IS NOT a paranoid delusion. It actually happened [guardian.co.uk] . That link is taken from the summary it's one of TFAs. The conspiracy had a limited and focused goal. They were mostly after just one man, but it was real.

No theories. Actual conspiracies.

Re:Yeah, that's great, except... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 2 years ago | (#42363925)

The CIA vaccination thing actually reads like some kind of fan service to conspiracy theorists...

The actual CIA, actually using a vaccine plot to gather DNA in an effort to direct an officially nonexistent model of stealth black helicopter carrying a kill team composed of officially nonexistent commandos to the correct target. Seriously, most conspiracy theories don't pack that much conspiracy theory...

Why is he mod'ed Flamebait (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363757)

Parent is correct.

I know this is an international site and there will be folks from regions mentioned. But the thing is, he speak the truth. I've traveled far and wide, and the only thing constant in this World are people's prejudiceses and stupidity. My own included.

I don't know what to say to the ignorance that mod'ed the parent down.

Please, sometimes you need to call a pot black. Enough of this relative morals or whatever it's called these days.

Enough already.

We are now a global community - like it or not - and we really need to work together.

Re:Why is he mod'ed Flamebait (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about 2 years ago | (#42363915)

It is also a missuse of the moderation system, however it was slightly inflamatory. The way parent states all people with beliefs against the current authoritative response to vaccines and forgien aid are conspiratorial nuts. This is not 100% accurate.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (4, Insightful)

runeghost (2509522) | about 2 years ago | (#42364137)

Perhaps the residents of those "backward regions" know their history? It's full of literally centuries of treaty-breaking, double-dealing, resource exploitation, regicide, land grabs, ethnic cleansing, biological warfare, slavery, and cultural destruction at the hands of white Europeans. Why should they trust us? Because, "When we say it's for your own good, we mean it this time, really"? Add in things like the CIA's little Osama-hunting stunt and Obama's chronic missile-lobbing and the only thing that surprises me is that there isn't of this sort of violence.

Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories (1)

runeghost (2509522) | about 2 years ago | (#42364153)

...and the only thing that surprises me is that there isn't *more* of this sort of violence.

Biological warfare (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363301)

I guess the Taliban have obtained biological weapons of mass destruction after all. They didn't need any fancy technology, just a whole lot of stupidity.

Re:Biological warfare (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 2 years ago | (#42363501)

Are you a moron, Pakistan has been a nuclear nation for decades and are not run by the Taliban.

Re:Biological warfare (3, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 2 years ago | (#42363573)

The problem is that Pakistan isn't run by anyone, or rather there are two parallel governments and much of the country's chaos stems from the friction and competition between the official civil government and the army on one side and the vast labrythine security services on the other.

Why say 'shot' when they were killed? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363329)

'Shot' makes it sound like they survived. Just say 'Polio Eradication Program Suspended In Pakistan After Aid Workers KILLED'

Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? (2)

alexander_686 (957440) | about 2 years ago | (#42363393)

MURDERD.

Killed could mean anything - from an accidental car death to dying from bullets falling from the sky after a round of celebratory gunfire.

Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | about 2 years ago | (#42363657)

Narrative journalism is based around political correctness. That's why the word 'killed' was used as opposed to something with true motive. Murder!

Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? (2)

larry bagina (561269) | about 2 years ago | (#42363729)

Allegedly killed. I haven't seen the body, have you? We can't rule out the possibility that the deaths were faked for insurance fraud. All we know is that someone, who may or may not really exist, may or may not now be dead.

Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan (1)

Quila (201335) | about 2 years ago | (#42363357)

Find the similarities.

Pakistan (1, Insightful)

arcite (661011) | about 2 years ago | (#42363361)

Pakistan is a beautiful country, particularly in the North. And their food is fantastic, the people are hospitable. It is tragic that the government there has little desire or ability to keep a lid on these extremist wackos. Pakistan is indeed a dangerous country.

Re:Pakistan (2)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 2 years ago | (#42363449)

I once read it being referred to as "the country that should never have been."

The partition of the Subcontinent is a tragedy that is still happening.

Re:Pakistan (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363469)

the people are hospitable.

As long as you're Usama Bin Laden and you aren't American ...

Re:Pakistan (1)

jythie (914043) | about 2 years ago | (#42364029)

No, actually, once you get away from the insurgents, the actual villages can be pretty hospitable to Americans, provided you learn some of the basic manners and customs.

Re:Pakistan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364349)

No, actually, once you get away from the insurgents, the actual villages can be pretty hospitable to Americans, provided you learn some of the basic manners and customs.

Like how to pray five times a day and be Muslim. And not be Indian.

Re:Pakistan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363709)

Lahore is a beautiful culturally diverse city that could be a shining example of modern subcontinent, British imperialism remnants, and mughal influences. Unfortunately, while vibrant its a place that the rest of the world will never know because it is too dangerous to travel there.

Re:Pakistan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363741)

The solution is to quarantine them off until they decide to take care of their infectious disease problem. London is now the European capital of drug-resistant tuberculosis, which was unheard of in Western Europe until they started getting mass immigration.

More info (4, Informative)

andy1307 (656570) | about 2 years ago | (#42363403)

The Pakistani taliban were against the polio campaign before the Abbotabad operation.

Then there's this: Afghan Taliban support polio vaccination campaign [cnn.com]

So it's not really fair to blame this on the CIA's operation...

Re:More info (5, Insightful)

Jeng (926980) | about 2 years ago | (#42363499)

Actually I will blame the CIA.

They went and took an urban legend and made it true.

Now when the Taliban says "We killed aid workers because they were spying on us." we can't say they are full of shit anymore.

Re:More info (3, Insightful)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about 2 years ago | (#42363649)

Ya, blame the CIA the same way you'd blame the police when a bank crook shoots a hostage.

I was wondering how many posts it would take for someone to twist this to blame the US for not dancing in a way sensitive to dictatorial murderers.

The only thing I blame the US for is letting the doctor go to jail instead of rescuing him. This is the US fleeing Vietnam and letting all the South Vietnamese who helped us fall into the hands of the North, writ small.

Re:More info (3, Insightful)

Jeng (926980) | about 2 years ago | (#42363821)

No.

Very stupid bad people used a very paranoid conspiracy theory for the justification of killing people.

The CIA went and made that conspiracy theory true.

You can't see how that is a very wrong thing to do?

Re:More info (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363909)

Stating opinion as fact, a slashdot staple. Congrats.

You're a Moron (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364213)

Jeng is a fuckiing goddamn moron.

Re:More info (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363853)

GP's point is that it's not a "hillbilly conspiracy theory" if the CIA was actually putting agents in among aid workers. If they did that, they are endangering the aid workers by making them a legitimate target of (admittedly informal) counterintelligence.

  I'd bet $20 that you didn't blame the U.S. military for the deaths of Iraqi civilians back when Saddam had placed his military bases in among them,* but blamed Saddam instead. You'd have been justified, but you can't have it both ways.

* (Actually, you'd be a little less justified. The costs of placing a base away from a water source in a desert are prohibitive for a cash-strapped nation, and everywhere there's a water source, there are also people who you can't afford to displace. The CIA has no such excuse for using aid workers as human shields. Dick move, CIA.)

Re:More info (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364281)

Now when the Taliban says "We killed aid workers because they were spying on us." we can't say they are full of shit anymore.

Ya, blame the CIA the same way you'd blame the police when a bank crook shoots a hostage.

Not the same thing.
Try having a group like the salvo's (salvation army) helping people on the street. Then have the police go undercover as salvo's to find and shoot the hobo's robbing stores.
I this scenario, can you honestly expect anyone living on the streets to trust the salvos anymore? Can you honestly expect there would not be retalliatiory attacks upon the salvo's?
Another analogy (probebly flawed) is moving your hand toward the dog and 1 in 10 times whack it over the head instead of patting it. You get a dog that is nervous to be touched, withdrawen, and liable to bite without provocation.
The point is such tactics are detrimental in what we are trying to do, in my view. We promise, aid, we give aid. We promise to help a country, we should help, by teaching and helping the people, and not with violence.
We should not be becoming what we are trying remove.

Re:More info (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363705)

Actually I will blame the CIA.

Nobody really cares what you do, but the blame still lies on the hands of the murderers.

You Do Not Understand "Justice" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363977)

Actually I will blame the CIA.

They went and took an urban legend and made it true.

Now when the Taliban says "We killed aid workers because they were spying on us." we can't say they are full of shit anymore.

So if people lynch and kill someone with Asperger's Syndrome out of fear to protect their children, you will put the blame on Adam Lanza?

Re:More info (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364005)

I bet you blame spoons for the obesity problems too.

Fake program was for hepatitis, not polio (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363409)

The summary is screwed up - the fake program used in searching for bin Laden was for hepatitis B, not polio.

What about AUTISM?! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363413)

Won't anyone please think of the children!

Idiot Americans (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363435)

This is the blow-back from the idiot Americans posing as aid workers doing vaccination work then sending in assassins based on info gathered by those "aid" workers.

I hope the families of the slain sue and are successful in getting bazzzilions of dollars out of the idiot Americans.

Oh yeah, and Americans are idiots.

Explain This to Me Again? (4, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | about 2 years ago | (#42363551)

I hope the families of the slain sue and are successful in getting bazzzilions of dollars out of the idiot Americans.

So the Sikhs that were killed in the wake of 9/11 [time.com] as "blowback" should sue the Taliban and Al-Queda?

Man, "justice" sure is fucked up where you're from.

Oh yeah, and Americans are idiots.

Ah yes, it is the entire American populace that are idiots. Yep, we were all part of everything you just said. Not one of us opposes it. All of us act together uniformly. No one protests. Man, for people who like to criticize Americans as racist bigots, they sure could look in the mirror from time to time.

Taliban: scum of the Earth (1)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#42363459)

By killing the UN workers, they are potentially killing thousands of children.

Re:Taliban: scum of the Earth (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363601)

Children that are best left to die instead of be raised in poverty and misery by brutal misogynist savages.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Taliban: scum of the Earth (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364193)

Men should marry nice young girls.

I hope your woman's world crumbles.

Re:Taliban: scum of the Earth (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about 2 years ago | (#42363687)

I'm willing to bet "Hmmm. An outcomes-based study showing our ideas yielded a huge increase in deaths" will never cross these savages' minds.

So what? It's self correcting in the long run (1, Interesting)

gelfling (6534) | about 2 years ago | (#42363535)

Eventually run out of people to get killed or crippled by polio and the rest of us can get on with living in the 21st century.

Re:So what? It's self correcting in the long run (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363747)

LOL diseases are contagious they will spread whether you like it or not LOL

Re:So what? It's self correcting in the long run (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364009)

...To unvaccinated populations.

Now, if Jenny McDipshit and her Crazy Wagon gains traction with anti-vaccination bullshit, we might have to start worrying.

How did they drift so far apart? (4, Interesting)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about 2 years ago | (#42363623)

India and Pakistan are basically same culturally. Of course, India is largely Hindu but with substantial Muslim population (actually India has more Muslims than Pakistan!) and Pakistan is mostly Muslim. But apart from the religious division, culturally, linguistically, ethnically they are not far apart and they were the same country till 1947. Theoretically Hindus with their caste divisions are supposed to fare worse than casteless Muslim majority Pakistan. But somehow in the last seventy years they have charted a completely different course. Both had the same judicial system, revenue/governance systems, English language, and railways, armed forces inherited from the Brits.

Pakistan allied itself to NATO and America, allowed its land to be used freely for US spy planes, Voice of America broadcast stations, bought every bit of military hardware US was allowed to export, from Patton Tanks, to F-16s to E-3 Hawk-eyes to stinger missiles to.... India claimed to be a leader of Non-Aligned movement, but in fact it was leaning towards USSR with MIG-21, MIG-23, Sukai, Hind helicopters and T-72 tanks etc.

But though both countries were mired in poverty, somehow India's democracy thrived. No one would mistake India for a developed country, with its slums and open sewers and congested roads and perennial power cuts and corrupt politicians and periodical flare up of communal violence. But somehow it is emerging out of it, in fits and starts, cornered the cheap back office white collar market, some good IT companies, decent medical systems, eradicated polio, making good progress on other diseases...

I don't think the difference is religion. I think the difference is government dominated by the military in Pakistan, and civilians in firm control of the military in India. That I think set a completely different social processes, incentives in the economy etc. I think economists should study how this process happened instead of wasting their time out doing one another in forecasting gloom and doom following the fiscal cliff. More and more the economists are looking like Mayans predicting the end of the world at the end of their long count calender.

Re:How did they drift so far apart? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363889)

India has all that coast line and more access to water, of course the paki's are going to be more violent without having to fight over fewer resources and having to smell your neighbor between his seasonal baths...

Re:How did they drift so far apart? (1)

gtall (79522) | about 2 years ago | (#42363901)

India and Pakistan both inherited British bureaucracy. That got them off on the wrong foot. The Muslims, as they seem to do everywhere else, cannot stand living in close proximity to non-Muslims so they up and left to East and West Pakistan. East became Bangladesh when they found they didn't care for the crazy West. Given the wars between India and Pakistan, India (under Indira Gandhi) just had to make it worse by letting off a nuke thus showing the Paks they had big dicks. So Pakistan just had to have their nuke otherwise their dicks would also grow in stature. The nutjobs on both sides always seem to be spoiling for a fight. The U.S. should never have sided with Pakistan early on. It only fed Pakistan arrogance.

Re:How did they drift so far apart? (5, Interesting)

Attila Dimedici (1036002) | about 2 years ago | (#42363937)

There was a study done a few years back that I think is related to what you are trying to get at. It was observed that certain groups from that part of the world assimilated into British society more readily than others. In particular they studied people from a particular region on the subcontinent and observed that the non-Muslims assimilated more readily than the Muslims, yet this was not necessarily true of Muslims from other regions(although it was true of a larger fraction of Muslims than other groups). They attempted to determine what was different.
When they studied the immigrants from that particular region they discovered that while all of them practiced arranged marriages with cousins, the Muslims from that region practiced patrilineal arranged marriages and the non-Muslims practiced Matrilineal arranged marriages. In addition, the clan structure was patrilineal. The effect was that among the non-Muslims, a young woman left her father's clan and married into the clan her mother came from. This tended to encourage relationships across clan boundaries. On the other hand, among the Muslims a young woman stayed within the clan she grew up in when she got married. This tended to encourage clans to remain divided. As far as I know, the practice of patrilineal arranged marriages is not a doctrine of Islam. However, it appears that most Muslim areas practice it. I wish I could remember the reference for the study because the authors made a compelling case that this practice explained the intractability of many of the cultural pathologies of Muslim countries. In addition, the authors brought in how other cultures with a similar patrilineal marriage pattern had similar pathologies, even when the cultures had few other common elements.

Re:How did they drift so far apart? (1)

rgbrenner (317308) | about 2 years ago | (#42364007)

actually India has more Muslims than Pakistan!

[citation needed]

CIA Factbook and Wikipedia disagree with you (160m in India(CIA&wikipedia) VS 180m in pakistan (CIA) or 171m (wikipedia)).

Inwhich can you marry little girls to men? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364315)

That's the better culture.

Well let's troubleshoot this problem. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363681)

God in the classroom? check.
No internet pornography? check.
A ban on mind altering substances? check.

So by process of elimination the problem must be violent video games! Starcraft strikes again! When will these zealots learn? I mean for God sake they become worthless once your opponent develops air power.

party insiders (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363693)

0-18 commentards all blind supporters of foreign usurpers waltzing around in sovereign nations, shooting kids up with globalist poisons. If you think the vaccines are safe then how about the human trafficking and rapes the UN continues to participate in? UN reps in my country will be warned to leave once and then they will be eradicated.

Re:party insiders (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363923)

and what country is that, AC?

Eradicate the Pollos! (1)

TheSync (5291) | about 2 years ago | (#42363697)

The font (on OS X Chrome) on this article really makes the headline look like "Pollo Eradication", which I suppose is what they do at "Pollo Campero"!

Re:Eradicate the Pollos! (1)

dev.null.matt (2020578) | about 2 years ago | (#42364159)

I always thought the only kind of camp that Pollo Campero could be would be a chicken death camp.

If the polio eradication program is suspended... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363727)

...maybe it's time to start the taliban eradication program ?

oh no (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363739)

OH NO! They're on to us!

Who cares? let them eradicate themselves via polio. SEND IN THE DRONESSSS

I wonder what the government's response will be? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363787)

The United States bribed a Pakistani doctor to help covertly find Osama bin Laden. He was helpful. Pakistan failed, or did not want to find Osama. How will Pakistan react now that vaccination, which benefits their own citizens, is under threat, at the risk of some American spies killing more Taliban?

In the defense of Pakistan, the doctor could have been spying on Pakistan in addition to Osama.

So... more blowback? (1)

EmoryM (2726097) | about 2 years ago | (#42363809)

1. Use a polio vaccination program as a front for a CIA operation
2. Let people know
3. Polio vaccination program treated as a front for a CIA operation
4. OUTRAGE

Good, let them die (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42363963)

If they do not want the world's help, then let them suffer the consequences.

Sterile Children (1)

ThePeices (635180) | about 2 years ago | (#42364169)

Of COURSE the children are sterile, they havent even reached puberty yet!

Idiots!

OMG GUN VIOLENCEE (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364227)

theyz needz gun control

Thank The ISI (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42364345)

You Americans are just naive idiots. The "militants" are actually acting on behalf of the real rules of Pakistan, their ISI military intelligence service. They allow this shit to happen as they want to control not just Pakistan but also Afghanistan. They cannot accept an Afghan nation.
In these countries double-dealing is the norm. On one hand they collect American weapons, munitions and aid, on the other hand they sustain these militants instead of crushing them. Sometimes they set up a dog-and-pony show and claim to "have had a heavy fight with the militants; many people/soldiers killed". In reality, they want this chaos as it assures they rule over Afghanistan.
Your arms makers and mercenaries love this situation, too, as it assures a continuous stream of revenue from spare parts, ammunition and replacements for destroyed/worn-out weaponry. Boeing loves the Taleban, they recently destroyed a good part of the US harrier inventory so Boeing gets a fat new multi-billion dollar contract for replacements.
All the surveillance/intel and mine detection developers/makers have the basis of their business in this crap-war in Crackistan. Securing America's borders and interiors would be vastly more effective and cheaper, but it certainly would reduce revenue for Boeing, Lockmart, L3, Raytheon, General Atomics and all the other crooks.

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